FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041473#Comment_4041473
Swf is not as strong as you have been led to believe and they were always expected to use comms. Tools like discord and teamspeak have been used in gaming since long before dbd. The devs would have been aware of this. I would bet the main reason we don't have in game voice is voice chat not being a feature the devs want to implement and maintain and they know people can just use one of these other tools. It nerfs oblivious/undetectable perks but those are not typically considered strong in the first place. If these tools effect kill rates then they effect the data used for balancing and are therefore taken into account.Swf is strong compare to b-tier killers and bellow only a-tiers and above have solid chance or make it even. Thing is DBD wasnt made for coms and some characters with traps like the trapper or hag are pure exsample of that or even stealth killers like ghostface are super bad against info sharing survivors, if you played any other game like rainbow six or csgo or any other game you must know how information is important about your enemy/target and his traps and equipment and how it can reshape the outcomes and give new opportunities that arent much possible without it so thats why swf is so strong their power is in sharing information which gives them huge view on the game (they know who is their opponent,what is he using like perks and addons, what are his strategies like mind games or respecting pallets etc. or how good his aim is etc. by just having one guy chased by the killer and all know that or where he is placing traps, where he is and from which side he came so where he did spaw which is huge for the trap killers or set up killers and like for ghostface just one sees a glimps of you and all others are sharp and expect ambus so your first down time can increase tremendously compare to someone who isnt expecting it, so swf has many advantages soloq doesnt have and duo swf has only like this for half the team thats why they arent so op like 4 man).
Just imagine if killer would get some information from his friend (like someone spectating from some map cameras that are randomly set or he can have it 2v8 if he is togeather on coms with other killer, the potencial of fast downs and keeping preasure are highly increased and thats why in 2v8 combination like legion with oni or any other killer was so busted due to legions information and more for his preasure from fast multiple injures but that info was huge buff too if other killer could get it).
High MMR four mans had an escape rate of 48% when we got stats for it (approaching a year outdated). That is losing more than they win (if only by a little), its better than solo queue but it is not even approaching nurse and blight level until you get up to actual comp squads. That is the double standard, you are treating every swf as a comp squad and every survivor as god tier while downplaying everything about willies streak, who isn't even a comp player. I have seen very average killers achieve 50 game win streaks. I've also seen willie try to swf streak, they don't even reach 20.The game is set to 60% on killrates and 40% on escape rates so its nice that its near these numbers and not like 30/70 or 20/80 or otherwise like 75/25 (escaper rate/kill rate, so its easier to understand). Blight and s-tier levels are busted. Im treating all swf as comp but to their max options which is info like comp, the fact they arent as good as comp is one thing like in looping or pulling saves and bodyblocks that are incrediable is one thing but they have almost same info share if we put the fact they dont use like clock system of calling out and arent that fast they still have something no soloq team has and will never have until soloq gets either some otion to cominicate between each other with coms like push to talk etc. or they get compleate info like seeing auras of gens,survivors, killer if is chased survivor looking at him etc., double standart arent you treating all blights as almost comp sweats? yes he has high potencial but then on other side he isnt as easy as ghoul or wraith,nemesis so not all blights are so busted and still loose even with the fact that comp blights are closest thing to cheaters in terms of power if we compare legit things with cheats. Win streaks are mostly about luck too you can get like 10 wins but 50 that means you played very well and didnt get srewed by things like map or survivor team with great conterplay and fast gens. For yor info best survivors have win streak above 200 which doesnt mean they suck, thing is we are talking about game where survivors will mostly die and less will escape that are stats that devs want the game to be balanced around 40/60 (escape rate%/kill rate%) so its just logical and blights 2000 win streak well he is busted and holds the "golden child of DBD" status from devs and like half the comunity because there wasnt killer that survived with so busted addons and techs as long as blight in late years of the game where killers can be nerfed fast and hard like chucky,skullmerchant,springtrap (his addons got nerfed which made him less powerfull like foxyes hook), then nurse has like 1000 winstreak and i think its perkless by supaalf because she is just nurse (if nurse player hits all her bliks super close to her hit range near survivor and reacts fast there is almost nothing survivor can do unless he is cheating or has some crazy haste which still is questionable or he has some endurance effect). Back to blight the 2k win streak was done when blight was strongest like old addons with busted effects (compound 33, alchemy ring that gave you 5 rush tokens if you hit one rush hit and other addons were very strong) plus he had his hug tech which wasnt hard to do and he could outplay the loop types that he cant ping pong just with 2 rushes (those rounded loops or short ones where he has nothing to bumb into so he can return fast,) he could pull dirty mind games with his hig tech and compare to weskers hug techs blights was way more easier to do and way stronger because if you failed you mostly got pallet or just cooldown for 2 rush tokens and then you could catch up with 5 so pretty different blight but now his was like 1200 or what before some swf crushed him and I even saw match where some swf (comp one I think) crashed him on hawkins (because of good timing and map) before he got even 10 points in his win streak which shows how rng factor is still a thing but it doesnt excuse the blights power level.
Dash would mean he is no longer The Trapper, that is the main reason I think it would be sad to see.Idk if he will have traps then he is still trapper and as I mentioned before his trap would have to be super strong with very strong effects like hexes if they would be all he would have because the amont of rng and time/preasure waste his traps make isnt beneficial to outcomes if they dont work and unlike hag his traps have way harder requirement to be working and with last few years he lost grass on many maps where he could hide his traps and current hit is just killers with multiple powers or minimaly two like we can see it on doctor rework (big shock) or freddy (first he got snares and teleport and now they gave him dream pallets to) even new killers shoiw that like sprngtrap who has range attack and teleport from door to door and if killer is single power it needs to be strong in more things or atleast in one key like antiloop,mobility,leathality (multiple fast injures or instadowns) but even with effects like instadowns from honing stone (purple addon) trapper is still not that strong in particular because his power is just huge investment for small chance of getting some outcome so I think they will give him something like some throwing trap or dash but that will show time because if you look at history of buffs trapper has probably the most addonst made into basekit and buffs as character but still sits at bottom next to merchant that was made terrible intetionaly so instead of just buffing traps which they will do probably (I hope the rng will be gone like getting escape from first try fels terrible as him) but they will add him something so he is more complex like other killers.
Last killer who was just aded with power that covers many things but is just same (like huntress,billy,wraith,blight,nurse) is ghoul who has just his leaps that have multiple effects on survivors (fast injure, giving kagune mark) and mobility with antiloop, before him its probably singularity.
Momoseventh literally lost a recent 1975 blight streak, it was a couple weeks ago. I am aware of the swf streak, it was shorter than willies trapper streak and those are the literal best survivors in the world. The very best survivors in the world have an escape streak shorter than a D tier killer, really consider that. I understand that these things are not truly comparable, I understand that there is nuance to these things. I am trying to make you understand that the game is already killer sided for the majority of killers on the roster unless you are in the top 0.01% of the survivor playerbase. Hens mentioned in a video that he has an above 80% kill rate on ghostface. Skilled killer players do not struggle on any killer. No killer is struggling as much as people claim, that is what I am trying to make you understand.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041570#Comment_4041570
How could it not be an issue? when casuals can beat a try hard player then what happens what happens when both sides try hard? killers are already losing to casuals that dont really bother so when they get people actually try it tips the balance.
it makes sense that if you want to win you should compete and try. if you dont try to win then you shouldnt be able to win unless both sides are not trying to win,
i think anyone that says they want casual fun matches and be able to mess around, bring whatever perks they want and do whatever they want then complains they never win should accept if they want to have fun and mess around meming, thats fine but you cant expect to win aswel if the killer doesnt want to play the same way as the survivors and just wants to win.
As for what can be done about it? nothing….some will play casually just for fun, some will play competitively and go for the win. people just shouldnt complain about losing if they are not trying hard.
You are conflating try harding with skill. I have faced many try harding killers that were terrible at the role, same for survivors. Just because you are playing in a try hard fashion doesn't mean you are skilled and just because you are skilled doesn't mean you are try harding, some ability simply becomes muscle memory and unless you go out of your way to tamp that down you will still play better.
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@Junylar said:
How the hell were you even able to get friends in DbD? I've been playing for longer than a thousand of hours, but the only thing I've collected were a few metric tons of salt.
I occasionally got friend requests from randoms I played with but that was when I first started playing, like a David I prevented a tunnel out on, and largely stopped as I got deeper into the game and the salt level rose. I now play in anon mode because of how unhinged certain people are in this game, sometimes over incredibly minor things.
Otherwise, its the friends that got me into the game but they largely no longer play outside of customs because of how competitive the game has gotten. The final straw being an event queue night where every match the killer went for a hard tunnel out, and yes I do mean hard tunnel and I really do mean every match. Obviously we just got unlucky to some extent but we were not sweating. Even when those friends were playing I was still largely solo queue.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041440#Comment_4041440
That's where custom games with friends comes in. It is probably the most fun time you can have in the game as of now.
I think customs always has been more fun and always will be. The game has become very competitive, which is fine when that is what you are looking for but that can't hold a candle to an impromptu sandbag competition against a friend in a low stakes match. If we ever get 2v8 customs we are planning some 4v4 protect the president (bots) matches with one killer and three survivors on each team.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041482#Comment_4041482
I absolutely agree its easier to do from a killer perspective than a survivor one, mostly due to the lack of downtime by comparison, but the best example I find tends to be killer mains playing survivor. Take someone like Otz, even when he's goofing around he still tries to explain his mentality while playing survivor, even outside of his more informational focused videos for youtube. He also tends to spectate other players when dead and maybe cheers them on or outlines plays they are/could be making, which comes off as very informative. My point was more how that type of focus contrasts with the more ego boosting/validation centric focus I see from a lot of survivor content creators, as that type of content seems to not resonate as much with that crowd. Like I mentioned earlier though, I am always open to suggestions on creators who defy that expectation on the survivor side, as there are more creators out there than drops of rain.
That said, as you mentioned, there are plenty of instructional videos on how to improve. I guess my point is more that practical application is different than instruction, like you surmised, and while you can't directly improve things like routing and pathing by watching (particularly in the realm of input accuracy) you can watch for how they do so in order to improve your own improvement (for lack of better wording.) This is best done in practical application, and believe it or not, you actually learn this best by watching a survivor's movement from the killer's perspective. When playing as killer, you can pick up on a lot of commonalities in good pathing by recognizing things like the directions and angles survivors approach tiles and resources, how they chain them together, recognizing how they utilize things like checkspots, preemptive juke attempts to throw off ranged aiming, etc. These types of things become subconscious as you improve at them, yet are best understood visually through practical application instead of an instructional video in private match examples. Thats a big part of why I constantly state that survivor players can learn to get better by either experiencing or even watching killer gameplay, its about what you're looking for more than who its coming from.
As for the creator themselves, I can entirely understand why people would disagree with him on things, much like I can why people disagree on things at all. If you take a subjective opinion and someone disagrees with it, the disagreement usually stems from each person having different points of reference and experiences, so considering an opposing position as misleading isn't necessarily worth invalidation. It just means if neither side can see the situation from the perspective of the other, it might not be worth engaging in further. Again, I have heard him say many things I disagree with, but I also found many things I did agree with, and some I even learned from. I would not have found those insights if I immediately shut out the rest due to them, which is more my point on the matter. I guess my other point is that you gain more from trying to be the better person than you do focusing on the shortcomings of someone's presentation of their arguments, as well as their contents.
I don't disagree, especially on how Otz plays survivor. I do want to say that I see just as much validation/ego boosting content coming from both sides, I don't care for it on either side so I just ignore it.
Thats a big part of why I constantly state that survivor players can learn to get better by either experiencing or even watching killer gameplay, its about what you're looking for more than who its coming from.
Completely agree, I am obviously a biased survivor main but I do go out of my way to watch content from killers to not leave myself in a bubble and improve myself from things more visible from their perspective. Some people don't like facing streamers because they might feel judged, I love it because I can watch my chases and the rest of the match back from their perspective. I do play the role occasionally but just tend to bounce off it for some reason.
I agree on letting everyone have their subjective opinions and allowing disagreement. However, it becomes an issue when they allow their bias and subjectivity to cloud objective fact and then potentially have their viewers parrot that objective falsehood to others. In the ping case their entire argument was "thats the server" which is an objective misunderstanding of what ping is and that I wanted killers to suffer for bad ping, which I did not state or even imply. I could explain that if they wanted a real discussion and also clarify that what I want is whoever has a bad connection, above a reasonable threshold, to suffer, since unfortunately someone does have to suffer. As a ghostface main they would likely even be open to that argument as it would also make gen grabs more reliable so long as their own connection is good but they would rather stay in their own bubble and further the us vs them by claiming to their audience that I am another whiny survivor main that just wants them to suffer.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041003#Comment_4041003
I wouldn't say ragebaiting, but he self admits to having a killer bias. Its the role he enjoys, and his time with survivor is pretty decent, so he clearly has a killer's perspective on different issues while having a more simplified understanding of his opponents' perspective. I don't agree with a good number of his points from the video's I've seen, but he gives them from the perspectives of his wins, losses, and frustrations. If someone doesn't play as much survivor, they would likely not run into as wide a range of experiences in that role. Same with Survivor mains who occasionally play killer and never run into most of what killer mains complain about.
And all of that is ok.
The point is to take the experiences you don't have that someone in that position does, then try to learn from them in your own position. You can disagree with someone on 99% of their points, but if that 1% is true and outside your own purview, its worth hearing them out. When I mentioned watching passionate content creators who have personal biases, thats what I was talking about: I certainly haven't played killer, let alone a low tier M1, anywhere near as much as someone like that. While I feel that level of exposure probably skewed some perspectives due to human nature, it would be a waste to not try to understand anything they have experienced that I simply don't have the sample set to experience.
Something that creator in particular pointed out in one of the videos I watched was in regards to content focus between roles: Killer mains tend to talk about strategy, tactics, and focuses much more often than survivor main content creators do, and I kinda agree with him from what I've seen. I used to see more survivor content creators take that route, but a lot of the content tends to center around trying to assert dominance on the killer, or lamenting the shared agency of the role, while the rest is just normal trying to entertain the audience. Obviously there are many content creators on both sides that defy this type of assumption (and if anyone has any good examples to follow that focus more on improvement and insight, please feel free to mention them. Positivity vibes for either side only please,) but it resonates with my experiences and what I look for from DBD content. And to note, I've seen some content creators switch mains entirely based on how they feel about the state of the game, sometimes out of spite and sometimes out of simple dissatisfaction in the state of their preferred role.
Don't need or want to go into more specific examples, but the point is that there is a lot of content for anyone who plays DBD to improve in their understanding and execution in the game. It can often come from people you fundamentally disagree with on a myriad of issues. The most important thing is to understand what insights you can glean from their stances, as they help you understand what that person is feeling while they play. Its ok to dismiss things as "entitled" or "oblivious" in the community, but only really after giving them a fair and honest shake at consideration. I feel like I bring up Sun Tzu a lot on these forums, but understanding your opponent works both in and out of combat. You'd be surprised the things that are easy to overlook when ignoring warning signs from unlikely people.
Even if we give them what they want, they will still complain and never be happy.This is true of a very large portion of the community, and is absolutely not role centric. In fact, some people believe that entitlement runs much more rampant on the survivor side, due to how multiple aspects of the game work. Personally I think its a user problem more than a role problem, being a scrub has no allegiances in itself.
TLDR: Its ok to disagree with someone on almost everything, so long as you give them reasonable discourse with the things you can agree with them on. If you dismiss them entirely off the bat, you never get that chance.
Something that creator in particular pointed out in one of the videos I watched was in regards to content focus between roles: Killer mains tend to talk about strategy, tactics, and focuses much more often than survivor main content creators do, and I kinda agree with him from what I've seen.
I mostly want to dig into this. I agree that killer content focuses on these things much more than survivor content does but I don't think there is much content you could make for survivor that focuses on those things. You could make a video explaining which gens to work on first and which to leave, how to watch the HUD to decide if you need to go for an unhook, how to body block effectively. There is more obviously but the well runs dry much more quickly than it does on the killer side and more advanced tactics are locked behind being grouped up and requiring perks. Solo queue can do those things but it is significantly harder.
Before a survivor can really do any of that they first need to be able to last in chase, if they can't do that then the rest will not matter. You can watch videos on how to run various tiles and how each killer power works (and play those killers) but unless you path well they won't do anything for you. Pathing properly takes practice and once you have enough practice that you are running tiles efficiently and running correctly against a killers power you have likely already started to understand map layouts and acquired enough gamesense for the rest not to matter as much. Even at this point the most effective way to win more games is often still to just be better at running the killer.
On a separate note and as someone who recently learned one of their comments was in a video from this guy (and who has never watched a video from them but was aware of their existence), I found his take on what I said to be entirely misleading and seemed to lack an understanding of ping and what constitutes a 50/50. His sole goal was clearly to paint me as a whiner and dismiss my points out of hand. The format of the video is like so many others where they imply discussion but its just them yapping from a soapbox with no way to challenge what they says or clarify what you said, all while they hmmm as if they made some strong point against you. I posted on a public forum so he is free to use the comment how he wants but if he wanted a real discussion he could have commented back to me, he didn't, he wants to be able to challenge what people say without a way for them to respond, its reductive.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041336#Comment_4041336
If trapper has a good kill rate in high mmr then he is stronger than he is given credit for, just because its "mains" playing him doesn't make that kill rate invalid. A less skilled player being unable to perform with a given killer doesn't make them weak, it just means the less skilled player needs more practice with the killer. I agree with the overall post that you shouldn't use the killers overall kill rate as a reason not to buff them but if we slice that kill rate to just those players playing him in high mmr against players also in high mmr and the kill rate remains high then no he really doesn't. I don't expect that is the case for trapper.Strong maybe he is but still second from the bottom (one of worst killers in the game because kill rates are wild numbers across the mmr), he is weak from his power logic you have to go out of your way and collect traps and set them so you can get maybe some value from them. As you say personaly I dont think he shines in high mmr but maybe he isnt in 1/3 of worst kill rates (freddy before his latest rework was thrash killer and he still dominated with kill rates in high mmr as exsample).
If its just the perks giving willie streak then theoretically any killer could put those perks on and get a win streak longer than the longest swf escape streak. Yet, I have also seen you claim that swf are the true menace of DBD. Those two points of view are directly contradictory. Just because you lose to those teams doesn't make them strong, does willie commonly lose to those teams? No. Gen regression has been nerfed but has that stopped willie from winning? No. Does playing as a killer that lacks map traversal stop willie from winning? No, he literally slugged as trapper and won many many matches in a row, this directly contradicts your claim. Maybe you require all of that to win your matches but not everyone does, willie clearly doesn't.With that build any atlest 115 killer can do it (even 110 but 5% speed is still better and many 110 killers doesnt have good mability or they have none). Swf are at top of the chain in DBD with s-tiers being stronger but in top players hands and they are as high a-tier killers level in power because swf has everything soloq will never have (unless you would have wallhacks and could call out things and communicate with others thats basicaly swf with coms), swf are strong because they have something survivors didnt have and shouldnt (some killers desing like trap and set up killers can be countered compleatly by swf shared info and coordination or stealth like ghostface). You have to take in count that he had super speed with haste staked and noed which was key thing for his slugging if he would lost noed fast then slugging is super hard and survivors are kinda safe if its not one guy standing.
We got overall escape rates with high mmr broken out, you can ignore them if you like but doing so invalidates your view on the game and how it actually plays out. If we are going to balance survivor based on the strongest they can play then the same must apply to killers, I don't actually want that but your arguments point to you wanting that for survivors but not for killers, its a ridiculous double standard.What double standart? I dont agree with s-tier killers and high a-tiers are like sfw with best gear so its kinda even (some killers are problematic especialy s-tiers and maybe ghoul in average mmr due to how easy he is but killers should be minimaly around springtraps or huntress level so its all much closer to each other without power level gabs that then make some balance changes almost impossible like many perks got nrefed just because nurse exsist and they werent even that good like weskers aura perks awerness).
I do hope that whatever rework or buff trapper gets makes him fun to play as and against. A dash killer would be incredibly sad to see.Well thats moder thing mability and dash attacks and tbh its safest thing they can do because all other things majority of survivor player base hates like trap and are control killers like trapper,hag,knight,skullmerchant arent very liked compare to dash killers, if we take even blight you would be surprised how many survivors like him and even thought his hug tech was ok (remewed that and he is still s-tier), other options is like some throwing trap but we will see because his power doesnt have any more things like freddy had with palletts and devs gave it to him into his rework or mayers who had multiple things so it was less work to achive that then making the whole new power or concept like with merchant (devs even tried it to drop it and give us super small buffs instead, most of her mains just want her second version but that survivors cant even imagine and have more aversion to it than to ghoul). In 2026 there should be 3 reworks trappers,skullmerchants and tricksters and i believe tricksters will be first because devs kinda indicated that they have something showy with good style his mains will like so I guess he will come first,then merchant and last trapper but thats just speculation because as in this year we saw plans can change.
Swf is not as strong as you have been led to believe and they were always expected to use comms. Tools like discord and teamspeak have been used in gaming since long before dbd. The devs would have been aware of this. I would bet the main reason we don't have in game voice is voice chat not being a feature the devs want to implement and maintain and they know people can just use one of these other tools. It nerfs oblivious/undetectable perks but those are not typically considered strong in the first place. If these tools effect kill rates then they effect the data used for balancing and are therefore taken into account.
High MMR four mans had an escape rate of 48% when we got stats for it (approaching a year outdated). That is losing more than they win (if only by a little), its better than solo queue but it is not even approaching nurse and blight level until you get up to actual comp squads. That is the double standard, you are treating every swf as a comp squad and every survivor as god tier while downplaying everything about willies streak, who isn't even a comp player. I have seen very average killers achieve 50 game win streaks. I've also seen willie try to swf streak, they don't even reach 20.
Dash would mean he is no longer The Trapper, that is the main reason I think it would be sad to see.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041303#Comment_4041303
but survivors constantly ask for killer nerfs and killers getting nerfs after launch and want the upper killers to be brought down to b tier or lower but survivorsare constantly asking for solo to be buffed to swf levels knowing full well that swf benefit from whatever buffs that solo gets swf also benefits so all that happens is killer gets weaker by consequence
Giving solo players additional information about their teams perks and a lesser kindred (no killer aura) or some other team info would dramatically improve the solo experience without providing any benefit swf doesn't already have. If those solo buffs effect kill rates we would then see buffs to the killer side to push the kill rates back to where bhvr wants them, those buffs could come in many forms with the most straightforward being additional gen time or regression buffs.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041309#Comment_4041309
Winning 210 games in a row sounds pretty reliable to me. I am certain willie faced those perks during the run and still won. It takes skill to pull back a game by slugging in endgame but it is a common tactic if the game gets that far. Sometimes you get nothing for it, sometimes it wins you the game. The fact that it doesn't win you every game doesn't make it unreliable, tunneling doesn't win you every game but calling it unreliable would be false. Slugging in endgame is a reliable way to pull back a game and one that tends to require more effort and skill from the survivors to counter than it does for the killer to execute once the killer gets the snowball rolling.Slugging build isnt bad but I would argue its very fragile thing even in endgame because few perks that counter slugging or just bad noed spawn can be all its needed for this build to cramble and get almost or even nothing out of it and still loose especialy on killer who has no basekit mobility or any form of map traversal (traps with iri addons especialy stone came handy when he closed some ways or key loop entrences like shack or some hall ways on RPD but thats just map rng in general very unreliable thing).
Comparing it to gen slowdown perks isn't a great argument since gen slowdown isn't what won trapper the most matches in a row. Too many people try to play every killer the same exact way, use the exact same builds, and refuse to try different perks when each killer must play to their strengths. If gen slowdown was the most reliable way to play trapper we would have seen willies win streak use those perks because they would have been what he found most effective while theory crafting the build. He didn't jump straight to the endgame build, he tried things out and decided for himself what was most likely to get him the streak.Gen slowdown isnt what it was because many perks got some nerfs in numbers and as you said it still can be pushed through, on trapper its still very needy thing or atleast some endgame perks to clouse the gab his set up costs him compare to other killers that can go and spread preasure right away like wraith,billy,huntress.
The rest of your arguments just seem to boil down to "but if the survivors are good" but willie faced good survivors in his streak and beat them. At some point this stops being luck and starts just being what is possible with trapper in skilled hands. I am specifically stating that it wouldn't make sense to balance trapper using just this streak, but that it should be considered.He will be reworked (or should be in 2026 so I hope devs wont try to back out like they did now with merchant but people still didnt let it slide) so they will keep the traps I think and add some chase power (a dash wouldnt be a surprise or range attack) but all we can do is wait and hope for the best, i still hope his rework will end up like freddyes.
This started because I asked if we had ever been given trappers kill rate in high mmr, which if it turned out to be high would actually be data that shows trapper is stronger than people give him credit for. I don't actually expect trappers kill rate to be high but would have enjoyed seeing the number if it did exist.I still stand they will be good because at high mmr he is played by his mains and they kept killers like sadako or freddy back when they were even worse than today with very good kill rates but kill rates arent everything and as in willies winstreak its mostly the build than the killer because trapper is just for people that like challanges and doesnt matter loosing from the start and fight to get good results.
Im not calling you low mmr I dont know where did you get that from
There is untold rule only more seasoned players knowI apologize if that is not how you meant this but it certainly comes across to me that way.Idk how you understood that tbh Idc if you got it now or you ar offended, by seasoned i meant people that have some DBd experience and know some untold rules and strategies, in general have some game knowledge and arent new joe that doesnt know that and doesnt understand that which I would say in big majority of DBD player base because the game is now what 9 years old and is coming to 10 so thats it.
If trapper has a good kill rate in high mmr then he is stronger than he is given credit for, just because its "mains" playing him doesn't make that kill rate invalid. A less skilled player being unable to perform with a given killer doesn't make them weak, it just means the less skilled player needs more practice with the killer. I agree with the overall post that you shouldn't use the killers overall kill rate as a reason not to buff them but if we slice that kill rate to just those players playing him in high mmr against players also in high mmr and the kill rate remains high then no he really doesn't. I don't expect that is the case for trapper.
If its just the perks giving willie the streak then theoretically any killer could put those perks on and get a win streak longer than the longest swf escape streak. Yet, I have also seen you claim that swf are the true menace of DBD. Those two points of view are directly contradictory. Just because you lose to those teams doesn't make them strong, does willie commonly lose to those teams? No. Gen regression has been nerfed but has that stopped willie from winning? No. Does playing as a killer that lacks map traversal stop willie from winning? No, he literally slugged as trapper and won many many matches in a row, this directly contradicts your claim. Maybe you require all of that to win your matches but not everyone does, willie clearly doesn't.
We got overall escape rates with high mmr broken out, you can ignore them if you like but doing so invalidates your view on the game and how it actually plays out. If we are going to balance survivor based on the strongest they can play then the same must apply to killers, I don't actually want that but your arguments point to you wanting that for survivors but not for killers, its a ridiculous double standard.
I do hope that whatever rework or buff trapper gets makes him fun to play as and against. A dash killer would be incredibly sad to see.
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@XDgamer018 said:
Its high time for dbds gameplay to alter to the killer being played. Examples
Pig smaller map less "strong" tiles maybe either a strong main or shack not both
But ghoul would have a bigger map with more resources for the survivors
I don't even think some of this would be difficult for BHVR to implement (just how spaghetti their spaghetti code is not withstanding). Something as simple as slower gens for weaker killers would go a long way. Would take a few iterations to get the numbers just right but we would get there.
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I swear its coded to show up more often than other perks, probably just a bias towards noticing the perk but I did get a match with three of us rolling it. Thankfully the killer took pity on us.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041233#Comment_4041233
I am not arguing that willie isn't a good player. I am arguing that an equally skilled player could take that build and duplicate the results. If one player can pull it off then Trapper is capable of those results. I don't want trapper balanced around just a win streak but it is folly to ignore it. Maybe unbreakable would have lost him a game but maybe it wouldn't have. I'm not going to go through every single one of his matches but it wouldn't surprise me if that exact scenario came up at some point and he pulled through anyway.Skilled player with simular skill or very close can pull it but I dont think its good comparison for balancing trapper (the fact that someone got over 200 kills win streak) because with his build even other weaker killers such as legion,ghostface or clown could achive smae results and even better with this build that is mostly great at endgame slug (their powers are better than trappers and can secure them more kills before survivors get last gen done, I think hens did same win with legion having noed and 160% speed at endgame). I think what matters with these type of builds is skill and luck because unbreakable even one or boon exponencial can compleatly shake of his slug and give survivors enough time for reset and turning 3-4k win to just 1 or 2 kills which would meant loss for his streak, even very long chase and survivors with good game sence who rotates with like we are gonna live forever can totaly mess this up so its mostly luck with skill.
It doesn't matter that he struggled or that he slugged in endgame because he won the match. I don't know how I can possibly be any clearer. If someone complains about something and struggles against something but then wins that thing did not end up losing them the match. I think you have become far to OK with videos from killer content creators complaining about something then showing endgame results of matches they won. They won the match, it cannot possibly actually be that much of an issue. If it really is an issue then show us a pattern of losing to it, not a couple matches, especially not matches you won, its lunacy.Thing is its not reliable, yes he won but is it releable as 4 slowdown trapper??? I dont think so and thats what depends too like trapper in general sounds great on paper but in reality is just roll the dice and be lucky and as i mentioned above luck is here huge clutch because few perks on survivor side or good play like long chase that takes him almost across the map is what can make him loose like nothing and there wouldnt be anything to undo it (maybe survivors getting altruistic and trying to pull rescue and failing), that whole build was like play normaly and try to get kill atlest and get rid of pallets and then have fast downs in short time in endgame slugging the rest and getting that 3k or 4 to secure the win which worked for him.
Lunacy is like saying trapper is great and very strong because he can secure the shack basement and there is very small chance to counter it (if its not swf or very good survivors) but what are the odds this will work for him every time because all maps have different spawn locations and its rng mess and we cant realy call him strong because he can be very strong in one certain situation compare to clown who isnt that great in same or simular situations but has more power in every aspect than trapper (if we exclude that basement lockdown or locking down any area that is possible with bear traps like main).
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt but you are just going through the typical rigamarole of me being "low MMR" and talking down to me. I am aware of everything you said and it isn't a big secret like you seem to think it is. Sometimes going there cannot be avoided, sometimes the game state demands you do so, even if its a risk. The most obvious example is a strong three gen near basement, you don't just get to avoid it all game, you can do your best to run away when the killer shows up but you have to go back. Yes, do it as safely as possible but the killer has agency in this scenario and can use their skill to get you there. Same goes for zoning, you are acting as if the killer has zero agency when that is far from the truth.Im not calling you low mmr I dont know where did you get that from (there are other experts on this forum that do it). Even in real life there are situations that dont have many options and you are basicaly kinda forced to do it even you wouldnt do it normaly but thats even in game like DBD sometimes you dont have choice (you dont have better option) but then you kinda must accept it because there isnt anything that would change it and this thing will exist even if you like it or dont but rule in this particular topic is dont go there against these killers like trapper,hag and etc. if you dont have to. See there are things you know you shouldnt do because it can backfire super fast in every game but in this people tend to somehow super disslike it for some reason.
With zoning both side have agency, survivor in general at the start where resources are there he can choose where he will lead the chase and killer at the end where pallets are wasted and dead zones are created (doesnt work for 100%, just telling you because you will deffinitely attack it but in general its like this but as all things it depends on the situation in this what killer and where he founds you like if you are hiding at the edge of the map and blight finds you there or bubba you are mostly cooked because in centre you would have way better options to counter them or choose where to go but there on the edge you are mostly zoned with little to nothing to loop around and so you dont have options).
Winning 210 games in a row sounds pretty reliable to me. I am certain willie faced those perks during the run and still won. It takes skill to pull back a game by slugging in endgame but it is a common tactic if the game gets that far. Sometimes you get nothing for it, sometimes it wins you the game. The fact that it doesn't win you every game doesn't make it unreliable, tunneling doesn't win you every game but calling it unreliable would be false. Slugging in endgame is a reliable way to pull back a game and one that tends to require more effort and skill from the survivors to counter than it does for the killer to execute once the killer gets the snowball rolling.
Comparing it to gen slowdown perks isn't a great argument since gen slowdown isn't what won trapper the most matches in a row. Too many people try to play every killer the same exact way, use the exact same builds, and refuse to try different perks when each killer must play to their strengths. If gen slowdown was the most reliable way to play trapper we would have seen willies win streak use those perks because they would have been what he found most effective while theory crafting the build. He didn't jump straight to the endgame build, he tried things out and decided for himself what was most likely to get him the streak.
The rest of your arguments just seem to boil down to "but if the survivors are good" but willie faced good survivors in his streak and beat them. At some point this stops being luck and starts just being what is possible with trapper in skilled hands. I am specifically stating that it wouldn't make sense to balance trapper using just this streak, but that it should be considered.
Something can simultaneously be in the game, which makes it a perfectly valid thing or tactic to use, while still doing damage to the game. I would argue that basement is bad for the game because of the game play loop it encourages. I am not saying trapper is strong because basement and agree that would be lunacy. If I showed games where I pushed through the killer stacking pain res/grim/dms/deadlock and we four man escaped all while asking for those perks to be nerfed you would rightfully note that the survivors won and ask why it makes sense to nerf those perks when we won, but I see the exact thing from killer content creators all the time and not a single person calling them out on it.
This started because I asked if we had ever been given trappers kill rate in high mmr, which if it turned out to be high would actually be data that shows trapper is stronger than people give him credit for. I don't actually expect trappers kill rate to be high but would have enjoyed seeing the number if it did exist.
Im not calling you low mmr I dont know where did you get that from
There is untold rule only more seasoned players knowI apologize if that is not how you meant this but it certainly comes across to me that way.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041209#Comment_4041209
I've watched onepumpwillie, how he got the wins doesn't really matter, he won those matches and not every match ended that way. Someone could take his build and get similar results if they are at least as skilled as willie (not likely lol and batteries has since been reverted to 5%). If they are not as skilled as willie they shouldn't expect to get those results but trapper would still remain capable of those results. Matchmaking throws a bit of a wrench into this but both players would be under the same matchmaking criteria, so not as much of an issue as it might first appear, and I think we can both agree that willie did face multiple strong teams during the streak, not just the team that ended it. This does apply to swf escape streak too but the longest swf escape streak is shorter than willies trapper streak, though not by much (unless that changed recently).It does matter how he got them because if you take it in average games trapper wont be able to do it, the win rate from willie is that high because he is very good as killer and he got basicaly endgame perks that helped him go for massive slugs but even with that there were games where he struggled and some game I believe he would even loose if survivors had one or two unbreakables (his slugs would mean nothing).
I do look around when running and think about where to run to and I agree that sometimes its better to go down faster but there is a lot more nuance in the calculation than just basement. If a gen is about to pop and you don't know any of the killers perks you are best off assuming pain res/dms and making sure the gen pops by going to the strong structure for the best chance of ensuring it happens. Its no different than shack pallet, sometimes its better to throw it early and preventing an early basement hook is one of the best reasons to do so.There is untold rule only more seasoned players know and thats to dont go near basement against some killers like trickster,trapper,bubba,hag because is god dam hard to get save against them from basement and usualy against these killers you can assume pain res/dms but stull its not good idea to push your luck (same like running from blight in open are without any objects you can use as protection or using long loop walls like back of the shack because you should know well he will get you there with his fast rushes and without perks or bodyblocks you will get hit or go down, you dont loop blight like m1 killer in short so as other fact dont go near basement or structures that can have basement against some killers and you are safe mostly and if they got basement build then they lack other parts and you will most likely die but still thats soloq thing and lack of comunication that makes this possible).
Some killers are better at zoning, its part of their balancing, but trying to double back at a check spot can also just get you hit if the killer guesses that is what you will do and some killer powers make that an incredibly bad idea. I don't disagree with anything you said but I think you are downplaying how much agency the killer has over the direction of the chase.Look killer can zone but survivor can also react to it if he doesnt have any other option like he is cornered against knight who has jailer on him or other situations like this, using check spots for double backing is like 50/50 with droped pallets either you vault and killer expects it and gets you or he doesn and swing and misses or simular situations where it mostly depends on what other side is thinking and respecting like pallets.
Ultimately, to me, basement is just bad reductive game play, no different than camping. You just trade hooks with no one doing anything truly skillful while the rest of the team sits on gens and walks out the door. I do understand why killers do it but I think it actively hurts the game and basement is the ultimate form of hook trade game play (obviously if survivors are contesting the hook this doesn't apply, especially multiple survivors).Idk what now was basement created for but its place where you have chest and can hide (killers doesnt check it mostly) but its just place that you should doge because killer has advantage there (some like doging main or shack and other strong loops if you can choose as killer chase you will doge those becaue you know survivor has uppe hand there and it will cost you preasure and time,resources, so its better to dege it if you can) and especialy doging it against killers that have powers with good deffence like trapper or hag or those that can injure multiple survivors in short time these are strongest killers with basement and its better to dont give it to them because your whole game can be reversed from hard winning to just loss becaue these killers get just one down and hook in basement and survivors them missplay.
It does matter how he got them because if you take it in average games trapper wont be able to do it, the win rate from willie is that high because he is very good as killer and he got basicaly endgame perks that helped him go for massive slugs but even with that there were games where he struggled and some game I believe he would even loose if survivors had one or two unbreakables (his slugs would mean nothing).
I am not arguing that willie isn't a good player. I am arguing that an equally skilled player could take that build and duplicate the results. If one player can pull it off then Trapper is capable of those results. I don't want trapper balanced around just a win streak but it is folly to ignore it. Maybe unbreakable would have lost him a game but maybe it wouldn't have. I'm not going to go through every single one of his matches but it wouldn't surprise me if that exact scenario came up at some point and he pulled through anyway.
It doesn't matter that he struggled or that he slugged in endgame because he won the match. I don't know how I can possibly be any clearer. If someone complains about something and struggles against something but then wins that thing did not end up losing them the match. I think you have become far to OK with videos from killer content creators complaining about something then showing endgame results of matches they won. They won the match, it cannot possibly actually be that much of an issue. If it really is an issue then show us a pattern of losing to it, not a couple matches, especially not matches you won, its lunacy.
There is untold rule only more seasoned players know and thats to dont go near basement against some killers like…
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt but you are just going through the typical rigamarole of me being "low MMR" and talking down to me. I am aware of everything you said and it isn't a big secret like you seem to think it is. Sometimes going there cannot be avoided, sometimes the game state demands you do so, even if its a risk. The most obvious example is a strong three gen near basement, you don't just get to avoid it all game, you can do your best to run away when the killer shows up but you have to go back. Yes, do it as safely as possible but the killer has agency in this scenario and can use their skill to get you there. Same goes for zoning, you are acting as if the killer has zero agency when that is far from the truth.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041194#Comment_4041194
Because blight is strongest killer in comp more stronger than nurse,billy,ghoul and he can still 4k but 4 antitunnel or so called "second chance perks" would give survivors way more power to deal with blight and I know they win games against those but they still loose games, Im not deffending blight here because he is just "golden child" of DBD and his power is just huge and thats why on very top he is even above nurse (that have only more power in the beginning of the game and on larrys and maps where blights rushes work not as on open maps).
I think top swf with comp experience with full meta perks is on same level as blight and other very strong killers, even in hens experiment video ghoul vs other killers the blight destroyed survivors way faster with less problems than ghoul could and there were restricted perks and addons so top blights are something different (blight is even faster than billy if he doesnt have overdrive).
I have seen a match from DBDLeague on an unrestricted night against blight (sadly the broadcast is no longer available otherwise I would link to it). No perk or item restrictions on either side. The blight won.
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You can use an external keyboard mapping program like windows keyboard layout creator to "move" your tab key around. No idea why they made this change, makes absolutely no sense.
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What if killers had status effects
You can apply blindness (prevents seeing auras even of gens) to a killer with residual manifest and hindered with champion of light and chem trap. I wouldn't want to go further than that without seriously considering its effect on the game. I have issues with the balance of the game (as does probably everyone), but the killer should feel like the power role and providing too many ways to "attack" them would be a detriment to that experience and the game as a whole.
chaining like Darkness Revealed immediately after Nowhere to Hide
I think I have only ever seen a nurse run these together and for the obvious reason that they are good on nurse which is mostly a problem with nurse.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041183#Comment_4041183
There arent many trappers in high mmr and if they have solid kill rate its because only one who plays him there are his mains and from DBD kill rate history mains always held killers kill rates high when they were super bad like freddy before his last rework or pig, sadako (onepumpwily, that dude can 4 with her just using condem and has some nice win streak with trapper which is using haste and noed to slug in endgame the rest), from what is obvious is kill rate isnt everything and especialy the killers shouldnt be balanced mainly with kill rate (like bhvr did in previous years, buff nurse and nerf pig etc.).
Survivor has to think where he will run in chase because if you dont and end up in dead zone or go in weak place you wont last long and zoning is thing but you still have some options and sometimes its better to last less without giving killer basement like the trapper or hag,bubba because it can burn the whole team there, perks are a thing but if he camps just basement its just 3 free gens so max 2 kills if survivors dont mess up and the fact knowing where basement is thats another thing (rng or some map knowledge) but mostly just doge place where it can spawn instead of trying pushing your luck and if you do then dont complain because you ran there (this applyes if he doesnt have iron grip+ agitation kinda, there are only 2 places where basement can spawn and those are shack and main so its 50/50 at worst and some maps have only one place like haddonfield or gideon).
Zoning is one of killers skills that he must use to have easier chases with synergizing his killer power with it (like huntress can zone better than ghostface), something like double backs from check spots as survivor which is something you can use to bait the killer and get some more time to reach safety or extend the chase. After all this trapper just is good at securing basement in trapper friendly area like shack or some maps like badham main where basement is strong but thats all he can do good and still very good team or swf will break his deffence or force trade at worst to extend their time on gens and from pulling killer towards them and thats all he is good at because his traps are just huge investment that costs lot of time (loosing presure on survivors) that can be worthless in return (hazard as gambling) so calling him good because he can do just one thing that will get removed from him after his rework is quite dumb.
There are thousands of matches happening every day (despite any claims that the game is dying), even the lowest picked killer (still twins) on nightlight has 44 matches played and that site has a tiny tiny fraction of total matches. There are likely enough matches overall with every killer to have a decent idea of their performance and per my nurse comment BHVR does take MMR into account. I'm not saying BHVR has been perfect on this front but I think they do better than they are given credit for. Small match count wouldn't apply to trapper who sits at 15th most picked.
I've watched onepumpwillie, how he got the wins doesn't really matter, he won those matches and not every match ended that way. Someone could take his build and get similar results if they are at least as skilled as willie (not likely lol and batteries has since been reverted to 5%). If they are not as skilled as willie they shouldn't expect to get those results but trapper would still remain capable of those results. Matchmaking throws a bit of a wrench into this but both players would be under the same matchmaking criteria, so not as much of an issue as it might first appear, and I think we can both agree that willie did face multiple strong teams during the streak, not just the team that ended it. This does apply to swf escape streak too but the longest swf escape streak is shorter than willies trapper streak, though not by much (unless that changed recently).
Yes, kill rate isn't everything nor is the win streaks I mention above and I would prefer if BHVR just broke out what percent of matches resulted in each outcome for each killer with further breakdowns by MMR and how many survivors were grouped up (not that this would be everything either) but it is impossible to maintain a high kill rate on a killer without winning the majority of your matches. While none of this is the only thing to look at for balancing it can't be ignored either. (release those stats and I will happily re-evaluate all of my opinions on the game)
I do look around when running and think about where to run to and I agree that sometimes its better to go down faster but there is a lot more nuance in the calculation than just basement. If a gen is about to pop and you don't know any of the killers perks you are best off assuming pain res/dms and making sure the gen pops by going to the strong structure for the best chance of ensuring it happens. Its no different than shack pallet, sometimes its better to throw it early and preventing an early basement hook is one of the best reasons to do so.
Some killers are better at zoning, its part of their balancing, but trying to double back at a check spot can also just get you hit if the killer guesses that is what you will do and some killer powers make that an incredibly bad idea. I don't disagree with anything you said but I think you are downplaying how much agency the killer has over the direction of the chase.
Ultimately, to me, basement is just bad reductive game play, no different than camping. You just trade hooks with no one doing anything truly skillful while the rest of the team sits on gens and walks out the door. I do understand why killers do it but I think it actively hurts the game and basement is the ultimate form of hook trade game play (obviously if survivors are contesting the hook this doesn't apply, especially multiple survivors).
Edit: I do want to note that I am not against buffing trapper, I do worry that any buff will just result in more basement trapper
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040869#Comment_4040869
Thats your opinion. But i dont want to discuss every perk with you or which one has the longer ban list. I just wanted to make clear that the comp balance is pretty different from casual and you shouldnt rate a killer with comp statistics if we are talking about pubs.
Thats just plain wrong. Blight does not dominate comp swf, its pretty even.
Yes, they are expected to 4k in comp, but survivors are harder limited than blight. No perks repeats, more bans and then items restrictions. Im also no map expert for Blight, but normally killer get good maps in comp.
This is what I am disputing, I am obviously aware comp balance is different. Again, I posted the link to the balance document, we are literally discussing comp balance right now. Its fine you disagree but your not really presenting any arguments as to why. You just posted a list I had clearly already seen and said comp is different. This is a forum and your free to discuss however you want, so I don't actually need you to present anything, but if you want to change anyone's mind you need to give them a reason to consider.
Blight doesn't get to use his strongest stuff while the survivors do and he is expected to 4k. @Abbzy makes an argument that stacking anti-tunnel would change that result but I disagree and the unrestricted comp matches I have seen still has the blight 4k and that is still the expected result. Your free to complain about these perks all you want but I don't see any real evidence that they slow down a comp blight. Blight does in fact dominate comp swf. You both are free to disagree with that but consider actually taking a look at how well blight actually does in comp and if your opinion stands up to that scrutiny. Or don't its a video game who cares what either of us think.
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@Abbzy said:
Fact is if we use same logic as using trapper kill rates for him not needing buffs or rework (that should come in 2026 with merchants and tricksters) we can say "nurse needs buffs because she has small kill rates" or "nurse doesnt need rework or any nerfs because her kill rates arent above average" and those are facts these people cant chew through.
Have they ever given Trappers kill rate in high MMR? It might be higher than any of us expects (not that I actually expect it to be that high). As much as we rightfully trash matchmaking it does carry some weight. Not buffing Nurse is a perfect example of this and how BHVR is sometimes better about stat usage than they are given credit for, she had a 67% kill rate in the Jan-March stats in high MMR.
Going down in shack against trapper or other killers that can deffend it well and make saves there almost impossible or super hard is survivors fault because killer goes where survivor runs in chase no other way around (mind games are just countering this and buying time but still killer goes where he thins survivor runs)
This ignores zoning as a skill set the killer should have and there isn't enough time to scout the map. If you haven't been to main or shack and get pushed to one you can go down near basement without knowing its there. It also ignores perks that help you get a survivor to basement, I have been dragged across a map to basement because the killer brought agi + iron grasp. Sure it means fewer slots for other perks but an early enough hook in basement can mean a loss right then and there.
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Require client side file validation on load up, or if they are unwilling to enforce a useful anti-cheat or make more files server side.
Rule number one of client/server interactions, NEVER trust the client. Anything that occurs on the client or requires input from the client can and will be overridden by hackers. Unless the server validates that the actions the client says are happening are reasonable you will have problems, no client side anti-cheat can solve that.
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@marcelelo320 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040902#Comment_4040902
I have a friend that played on the killer side after hearing me complaining.
He: "The killer side is eazy. I don't know what you mean?"
Me: "Wait."
After a month he understood.
And then a year goes by and they start stomping most of their matches again. Why are we expecting a killer with a month of experience to do well? Survivors with a month of experience don't do well. Everyone should get matches against opponents that are better than them, its the best way to improve.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040848#Comment_4040848
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AHPIJFV7MC58/screenshot-20251228-184652-samsung-internet.jpg
There are plenty of things which are banned. And its not about what your random killer complains. A swf with power struggle etc is a menace. But the real thing would still be anti-tunnel-stacking.
I literally linked to the document containing that list, you don't need to include it in your post, I clearly looked at it. If you are trying to show something like the survivor side being longer its meaningless when stuff like Alert, Low Profile and THWACK are on them.
Ya, plenty of things are banned on both sides and in my opinion the overall list hurts killers way more than it hurts survivors. As we go down the tiers more perks get added to the survivor list but that doesn't apply to blight. Power struggle, your random survivor complaint, isn't stopping a comp blight nor would stacking anti-tunnel, they can tunnel through a DH and DS, no additional perks are going to make that more effective. Blight can't use the strongest gen regression perks and isn't allowed to use brutal strength, generally considered his strongest perk. These restrictions hurt blight more than they hurt survivors.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040794#Comment_4040794
60% kill rate isn't a 60% win rate.
1k and 2k games contribute to the kill rate but aren't wins.
I'm not agreeing with them, both roles are difficult and have their issues but this game tends to snowball for one side or the other. From my personal recording 2k is the least common outcome and while there are some killers that are basically guaranteed a kill in endgame if they get someone on hook (like bubba) most of the time if there are four survivors alive in endgame four survivors get out the gate. Same goes the other way, every 3k counts one escape but if the killer gets a 3k they usually get the 4k, either by slugging to deny hatch or just winning the hatch/gate game which generally favors the killer.
I would love if BHVR released stats on how many games result in each outcome, ideally further broken out by killer and multiple MMR ranges (alongside numbers showing what percentage of the playerbase is in each bracket). Those stats would likely even change my view on some things in the game but as things currently stand the most likely cause of a 60% kill rate is simply killers get more 3k and 4k matches than they get 0k and 1k matches.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040818#Comment_4040818
Thats just plain wrong. Blight does not dominate comp swf, its pretty even.
Yes, they are expected to 4k in comp, but survivors are harder limited than blight. No perks repeats, more bans and then items restrictions. Im also no map expert for Blight, but normally killer get good maps in comp.
And you couldnt compete at a high level. Play 1vs1 ladder if comp is too complicated for you.
I don't think you realize how few limitations there are on survivors in comp when playing against blight. Restrictions for season 10 of DBD league here
Item used when playing against blight, only major restriction is the firecracker, otherwise this looks like a pretty typical lobby.
1x Purple Medkit + Pink Charges + Brown Charges
1x Green Toolbox + Brown Addons
1x Blue Flashlight + Brown Addons
1x FirecrackerThe only perks outright banned on the survivor side that I regularly hear killers complain about are BGP and Dramaturgy (Edit: forgot vigil on that list), there is some anti-tunnel stuff on there like babysitter and off the record but DS and DH are not banned against tier one. Sure survivors can't double up on perks but that still leaves room for an exhaustion on everyone and overall good builds. Meanwhile tier one killers can't use pain res, grim embrace, or deadlock. DMS was outright banned. A bunch of my least favorite to play against perks and perk combos are on overall killer banned list.
Blight tends to play on coal tower but I have also seen him play on suffocation pit and blood lodge. I don't know exactly how they decide which map a killer gets and it seems to change match to match but all of the ones I have seen him play on are generally considered fairly balanced or survivor sided. We really only start to see the good maps for the particular killer come out when you get down to the likes of dredge (midwich) and ghostface (lerys).
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040742#Comment_4040742
I mostly was talking about the bugs. Well, i hope they are bugs (Victor sliding off survivors and Snug getting stuck).
There are some ways to make Trapper better. Long 3-gen-games will always be the best for trap killers, but if you dont want that you need to delete trap killers completely. (Buffed trapper would still be worse than Singularity)
Gathering all traps in one place is always the best strategy, but its even worse for Trapper to spread them out. While Singularity or even Hag can get value from a far trap, Trapper gets maybe an injure if the survivor was healthy. You could give him a speedboost while someone is trapped, but its more likely used in chase than as traverse tool. (If survivor run in pairs, they are immediately out anyway)
Collecting the traps is only Trappers problem. Everyone else has unlimited supply. The problem is basement trapping. If you could run throught traps with bt even uncoordinated survivor would get out. Maybe even give survivor a tool to disable traps for 20 sec. (similar to EMPs) But a simple method to get a trap without going to the other end of the map, would be great. (Maybe with a cooldown)
You could also make the addon basekit, which disables traps if you walk through as trapper. Doesnt make im incredible strong, but you have a bit more options.
Well, i hope they are bugs (Victor sliding off survivors and Snug getting stuck).
Bugs now, features two years from now when they finally get mentioned by the devs.
I am definitely not asking for trap killers to be deleted. I can see why some people would enjoy setting up a web and seeing the payoff they get from it. I like gens more than the average person here (not actually sitting on them but the macro of trying to split them as much as possible).
I don't disagree with any of those possible buffs in theory but this is a weird game where what sounds decent in theory is often incredibly strong or incredibly weak, even experienced players get it wrong from just looking at patch notes or playing for a short time. I would certainly be OK with testing out changes like that on live for a bit. I just worry what the outcry might look like if they get even partially reverted (not that that's a good reason not to try).
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040823#Comment_4040823
But with that reasoning Wraiths uncloak boost can also outplay Sprint Burst.
At which point Wraith needs to cloak back up, catch up, play the mind games at whatever resource the survivor makes it to, and then maybe get the down. Myers, your just down. Unless the wraith has an expose perk its not really comparable and even then the perk is going to have way more limitations than Myers instadown.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040741#Comment_4040741
Not even slightes, for me its cheaters and the fact devs dont talk about them and are doging the changes that should stop most of them like upgrading the anticheat or making better report system, adding replay option so you can watch the match and spot who was sus if he was subtle or not things like these are needed or this game will die in few years because cheaters cant be beaten in this game sadly.
Even if they pay for the anti-cheat it just gets them support for integrating it into the game and some additional features (I don't know exactly what features so may or may not be relevant to this game). The real work would still be actually updating all their code and moving a lot of things to the server (which also means additional server costs). It wouldn't surprise me if easy anti-cheat took one look at the code base and just said, we can't help you lol. Replay option has the same problem, would likely require a full rewrite of the DBD trial code to properly implement.
They can certainly do more than they are doing now but those two options specifically (and they are the best ones since they are actually proactive not reactive) would require a ton of work.
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Money, decent programmers are expensive and so far ping issues hasn't put a dent in how much people spend on the game. Same for adding more server locations, those cost money and don't actually generate anything additional for them.
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@BloodBird said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040708#Comment_4040708
brother I have been playing the doctor since 2021 that’s last 30 days not lifetime . It’s always something with this community I swear.
They can't stand that you are doing better than them, especially on a killer they consider to be unplayable (I'm not saying Doctor is strong). Can't possibly be them having a skill issue, you must be low MMR.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040697#Comment_4040697
I wont disagree that spirit is in a fine spot, but she is stronger than atleast 30 of the other killer.
Imo not every killer needs to be good and its more important that they dont feel clunky to play (Houndmaster, Twins) or completely outdated (Trapper). Yh killer like Legion are weak, but just switch to a stronger killer if you want a chance against 4 good survivors.
Definitely agree that the most important thing is that they feel good and fun to play. With a roster this large some are always going to be stronger than others. Hard to say how bad twins and houndmaster would feel since its so hard to judge with all their bugs, though I still love houndmaster because pubby :)
Problem for some is that if you remove their clunkiness, which here I am assuming you mean cooldowns, animations, speed of power actions, and the like, they can easily become overpowered. At that point the only way to make them less clunky feeling would be a rework to their power or some other nerf to go along with it (which could just move the clunky feeling to a different place).
I do understand the desire to update trapper but I just don't see a way to buff him that keeps him as "The Trapper" without making him incredibly oppressive to play against. A trapper that camps a strong three gen from the start of the match can be incredibly frustrating as is, a decent team wins almost every time but it tends to be a long boring match (at least its a boring match for me).
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040539#Comment_4040539
I wont say that Spirit is not balanced, but if you take 4 really good survivors even nurse is balanced.
Which killers are balanced in your opinion? I would say Artist, Oni, Plague etc are in a good spot (and that makes half the cast too weak) and Spirit is a bit ahead of them.
A really good nurse beats 4 really good survivors the majority of the time. Spirit is in a perfectly fine spot. Sure there are a bunch of killers that need some love but it isn't half the cast and the main thing keeping them down is having to compete under the same conditions as nurse and blight.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040499#Comment_4040499
If you get tunneled "every match" that usually means you are a weak link and probably have much room to grow, therefor it isn't a killer problem. Not saying that to insult… but killers generally don't tunnel unless they see an easy opportunity or are low MMR not knowing any better.
But besides that I disagree, I love getting tunneled, it usually means the survivor team will win cause I am confident in holding a chase long enough for the exit gates to be opened ;). Why would you want to sit on a gen at any given time? its boring and uninteractive. The fact that there are ppl like me who can hold 5 gen chases is proof enough for me personally that DBD is fine and even survivor favored. Most ppl just don't like hearing this truth and will downvote instead of improving their plays/loops. It is what it is.I don't get tunneled every match, nor did I claim I did, but the majority of my matches do involve the killer going for tunnel out on someone. Comp DBD largely revolves around a tunnel out, are comp survivors weak links? Are comp killers low MMR? I'm not saying comp DBD is truly comparable to queuing up but comp killers wouldn't go for one if it didn't work and it works for them a lot of the time. Often a killer chases me for tenish seconds and then drops to go somewhere else, which leads into the next point.
The fact that there are ppl like me who can hold 5 gen chases is proof enough for me personally that DBD is fine and even survivor favored.
Any killer that lets you get a 5 gen chase is an unskilled killer. A remotely competent killer would drop chase until you are one of the last remaining survivors, or find you in a disadvantageous position, or simply down you well before it becomes a five gen chase. I'm not saying that it doesn't take skill to five gen chase even against an unskilled killer (takes way more skill than the killer getting a tunnel out does), but five gen chases are much more a showcase of a killer skill issue.
The fact that there are ppl like me who can hold 5 gen chases is proof enough for me personally that DBD is fine and even survivor favored. Most ppl just don't like hearing this truth and will downvote instead of improving their plays/loops. It is what it is.
You're right, most people don't like hearing the truth, like how "unbeatable" high mmr four mans have an escape rate below 50%. These are the strongest survivors in the game and they lose more than they win. That's killer sided, with real data behind it, not feels. I'm not even asking for that part to change, I want survivor to feel like an uphill battle, I want the game to be killer sided, I'm tired of people staring facts in the face and claiming it isn't already that way. And yes it depends on which killer we are talking about here, but the majority are far stronger than people will claim and its a skill issue on their part.
I would be fine with leaving tunneling in the game but then it must be reasonable for the remaining survivors to escape based on their skill alone, that doesn't happen right now. One survivor dead leaves the rest in a doomed match unless every remaining survivor is significantly better than the killer. If it were reasonable to escape in that situation the game would be much more reflective of 4 1v1s as well.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040488#Comment_4040488
Whoaw that last line rly hits hard… So you say non of these symptoms require treatment, its just "killer" that is the problem? Correct me if that is not what you meant. Cause I doubt that is what you meant. And if that IS what you meant, do you think punishing killers in the most egregious ways (like last 2 PTB's) will magically fix all the survivors behaviour? (as in DC's, AFK's and Match throwing)
Lmao, as if you didn't think your final line wasn't some sort of hard hit. Good job ignoring everything else I said :)
The disease is that survivor isn't fun to play a lot of the time. I don't mind getting tunneled, I enjoy chase, but I don't want to be tunneled every match and I don't want every match to revolve around it. I don't DC in my matches but I can understand why someone might. Yes, those players should just stop playing but unless you start making the role fun, even when the survivors are losing, you will never get rid of the symptoms. The killer either gets the tunnel out early and wins the game on the spot or doesn't get it and most of the team just sits on gens.
Had either of PTBs gone live we would have seen adjustments, if for nothing else than to ensure the overall kill rates stays around the desired 60%. They weren't perfect but I am sick of the "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" situation we are in. Killers claim the game is miserable for them as well, shouldn't we try something that could potentially alleviate issues on both sides? Despite people saying tunneling is required on killer x or y, anti-tunnel would have hurt the S-tier more than anyone else, these killers have a much easier time tunneling someone out. I have said it before and will again, if you get tunneled out by a trapper you have a skill issue, if a nurse or blight is having trouble getting a tunnel out, the killer has a skill issue. We would have seen gen times increased or some form of regression buff.
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Pretty sure people have loaded up the map with noclip type mods and looked. It probably doesn't exist.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040479#Comment_4040479
Ah yes… doesn't fit the narrative, so lets dismiss (one of) the most knowledgable member of the DBD community. Hens knows the game better than BHVR, so when he says balance is X and Y, I tend to believe X and Y. Not just because he says it, or I have over 5k hours myself, but because I thought about it rationally and logically as well in comparison to my own experience.
Here is my own experience as a 2016 player with a stupendous amount of hours:
Survivor: Escape rate on average, in solo Q, every 30d well over 50%.
Killer: High Kill rate… but … well over 50% of matches has someone DC early.
Conclusion: Kill rate inflated … Survival rate most likely more accurate.
Diagnosis: Stop DC'ing so the stats for both sides can become more accurate. Play the matches even if its Nurse/Blight.
Symptoms:
- People throw matches just to get their quests done.
- DC cause don't like killer
- DC cause went down first and fast due to mistake
- DC cause tunneled
- DC cause camped
Start fixing the symptoms, then lets look at stats again. Shall we?
Hens is a streamer first and a DBD player second, he has a financial incentive to do or say anything that he believes will get him more views. Claiming survivors have skill or mentality issues gets views so he does it. Why didn't he play killer in Korea? Because claiming killers have skill issues doesn't get views. Fifty matches is a tiny number of matches compared to the total number of matches played.
Your personal escape rate is meaningless, and if you abandoned any of those matches it inflates your personal escape rate. A survivor can simultaneously escape every match while the killer gets a 3k in every one. Meanwhile a killer that is maintaining a high kill rate cannot be losing the majority of their matches. Personal escape rates are a bad metric for measuring real match outcomes, but a high kill rate is indicative of a killer that is winning the majority of their matches.
My personal escape rate sits at 55% but I lost most of those matches. The survivor win rate (3+ out) was around 30%. Official stats released by BHVR say they don't include matches with DCs and those have escape rates across the board below 50%. If DCs inflate kill rates then the real kill rate including DCs is way higher than the official stats we sparingly get. I don't think those matches should be counted for balance but they are indicative of the real experience.
Start fixing the symptoms, then lets look at stats again. Shall we?
You don't treat symptoms, you treat the disease causing the symptoms.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040456#Comment_4040456
Because you manipulate your stats to your argument just as much as you claim the other guy doing it. I'll use myself as example: I have 80% KR on my low tier killer main as well… doesn't mean I'm good at it, not even close. I know for a fact that my KR is inflated because the majority of matches someone DC in the first minute/first down, which then affects the match outcome cause bots are fast/easy to catch. But for some reason everyone including BHVR is looking at that stat as if it means something…
The fact that you don't have this happening could mean a multitude of things, which has alrdy been discussed in other topics. Why would runningguy or me be lying about this? What could possibly be the purpose? I literally don't even play the game right now due to that DC epidemic. It's not worth my time to Q up for.
The Asian server experiment Hens did recently is ultimate proof that solo Q survivor is fine in terms of balance. It is literally just a western mentality/entitlement issue that ruins the game for us. People just don't want to hear that hard truth and look at the evidence for themselfs.
Hens "experiment" is proof of absolutely nothing (and did you watch the video? someone DCs in literally his second match). Its an incredibly small sample size and we don't know if these were played consecutively, or at different times, or on different days. A proper experiment would also release all footage, not the cherry picked portions he chose to show us.
Interesting that he chose to only play survivor where he doesn't actually get to see how the other survivors play much. Why not play killer where he can better gauge the skill level of every survivor in a match? Oh right, because he would stomp all over them and that wouldn't support the narrative he is clearly trying to push. It was just another video of a survivor going on long chases against opponents that they are better than and that don't drop chase, or put another way, he faced a bunch of unskilled killers.
People simultaneously claim that killers on the Asian servers tunnel less and that they tunnel more. No one has proof of anything, they just make claims with no evidence.
@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040396#Comment_4040396
Who the killer tie to? The two dead or the two escapees? A tie only works if theres more than 1 team with an inconclusive state.
Dbd is not Survivor Team vs killer. Its a free for all among all survivors. You dont magically win if 3 others escape.
Survivors die or escape individually and the killer loses on 0 to2 kills and wins on 3 or 4 kills.
Just because MMR treats it that way for survivors doesn't mean it makes sense. The vast majority of players consider a 0-1k as survivor win, 2k as a draw, and 3k+ an a killer win. The point is that a killer can get a 50% kill rate by getting as many 3 or 4k matches as they get 0 or 1k matches, 2k is not a common outcome in this game.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040422#Comment_4040422
you clearly underestimate how often killers get kills because survivors unhook too soon or when killers pick up 4k because they all try to save that 1 hooked player at the end. how many people get tunneled because they get unhooked before the killer has time to move from the hook?
as for leaving me on hook. i dont leave everyone on hook, just the ones i consider to not be helpful in my escape. if its a good looper or someone that does gens properly then i will unhook because they aid in my escape…doesnt make sense to let decent players die hindering my own escape. if its end game then sure, im out of there.
But yes, if people can do gens and get the gates open and get 3 man out while i die on hook thats exactly what i expect. if im throwing the match then yes i expect to be left on hook while the good players do gens and escape. im describing a game that is…the choice is there for as all to make. i made my choice on how to play and i escape a lot because of it. i get tunneled less because of it. soloq is fun because of it. if you decide to play differently and play the team game then the results speak for themselves….people say its impossible, the dont escape, they hate it. so the question is, whats better? my way or the "team" way of playing?
i would like to add im pretty sure the asian servers have higher escape rates than the rest of the world…. its a known thing that generally people on those servers favour stealth and selfish gameplay. it explains a lot really. they play more like me and they escape more.
Lmao, ya I am aware you shouldn't unhook too early, I am quite clearly just talking about leaving you to die on hook and not just in endgame, first hook. If my sole goal was escape for just myself then the most logical thing to do is never unhook the other survivors since the killer might come back and go after me. Would also mean hatch spawns faster and if the killer finds hatch I can still play gates. This is the logical end result of the game play you are advocating for.
My escape rate from the stats website currently sits at 55% in the past 30 days but I was in those matches and know how they really went. That escape rate most closely matches the number of matches that ended in 3k+ (with the real number being higher than my escape rate) and that is with me playing like a real teammate. Sure my escape rate is high compared to average but most of those were not fun matches.
as for leaving me on hook. i dont leave everyone on hook, just the ones i consider to not be helpful in my escape. if its a good looper or someone that does gens properly then i will unhook because they aid in my escape…doesnt make sense to let decent players die hindering my own escape. if its end game then sure, im out of there.
A 3v1 practically always snowballs into the killer winning so long as they are remotely competent in the role. I don't unhook right away and I assume a teammate is getting them if someone healthy isn't on a gen but just leaving someone is a surefire way to let the killer win.
i would like to add im pretty sure the asian servers have higher escape rates than the rest of the world…. its a known thing that generally people on those servers favour stealth and selfish gameplay. it explains a lot really. they play more like me and they escape more.
Conjecture, the only real data we have on the differences is the top picked perks from the Japan stats. People also claim there are more people playing on controller and that the average ping is better. Even if we assume all of this is true (which neither of us have any proof of) my bet would be lower average killer skill/harder to play on controller and fewer ping hits has far more to do with their escape rates than playing that way.
We clearly are not going to convince each other. I sincerely wish you luck in your matches but hope I never get you as a teammate.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040400#Comment_4040400
its still relevant because the game system hasnt changed. at no point since 2016 have the devs changed anything that means the team has 1 common goal. they still have challenges, they still grade people based on personal escape, the escape rates players can see are still personal escape rates…its not team wins or losses it personal escape rate. if the devs changed it so the game had shared scores and shared wins/loss then you have a point but it has never been like that so the original description still stands.
The idea is that if there is a strong team then teamwork will benefit you and your chance of survival. going alone can be detrimental to you.
on the other hand, if the team is weak then working as part of that team can be detrimental, it can be better to work alone.
What you are describing is what you want the game to be, or expect the game to be….which is fine but you cant say the game IS strictly a team game when there is no evidence to suggest it and all evidence points to it being nothing more than 4 people thrown into a trail together each with personal goal and objectives and scores and escape rates
you dont have to consider it a win…you can consider whatever you want as a win. last 30 seconds in a chase could be considered a win if you want it to. i mean if a survivor does the totem challenge in a match then dies….they could consider that a win.
You are quite literally asking for teammates to leave you on hook or are you going to unhook yourself. If everyone played like you the kill rate would skyrocket and killers would need to be nerfed. You're describing a game that doesn't exist.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040395#Comment_4040395
i think this is where people are getting confused. it not a strict team game. Even on the steam description of the game is specifies you CAN play as a team or you CAN play selfishly. going at it alone is an option, its not just a team game.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/199M3AM0176Q/screenshot-2025-09-17-011857.png
you can consider it a loss for you if your the only one to escape but in the eyes of the game and mmr, an escape is a win for that survivor. killers could consider anything less than 4k a loss but in the eyes of the game and mmr 3k is a win…thats how it is even if you dont agree with it.
A description of the game likely written in 2016 and never updated has no relevance to the game of today.
MMR as currently implemented clearly doesn't work, why would I care what it considers a win when it pairs me with potatoes regardless?
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Or it means that the killer got a 3k or 4k in as many matches as they got a 0k or 1k. Ties are the rarest outcome in the game.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040386#Comment_4040386
like i said, i dont have anything that others dont have. im not a pro player, i use standard perks and get useless team mates like everyone does. The only difference is i choose to play stealth so i dont get tunneled as often, i do gens, i dont rely on my team as much as others do. As a result i have learnt to stand on my own 2 feet and support myself.
The OP even said their escape rate is 43%, thats above the average. its more than the devs 40% aim.
And the mmr is worked out by 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v 1. you are looking at this like the team is 1 unit, 1 common goal, 1 outcome….the team wins or loses. its not. its a group of 4 survivors each with their own personal goals for example half the team might be looking to escape but the other half might be looking to do challenges like totems or going for stuns. If you choose to help others achieve their objective thats great but in a way you helping the 1 person that has a challenge that they need to escape via hatch instead of doing gens yourself could be hindering the rest of the team.
Except it isn't four 1v1's. It's a team game, claiming otherwise is ridiculous. Survivor MMR being based on personal survival is likely a major part of why matchmaking is so messed up. I could escape every single one of my matches with every other survivor dying and have a 100% escape rate, wouldn't mean a thing, the killer won those matches not me.
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@Reinami said:
Its MMR based with RNG playing a heavy factor.
- At low MMR, the game is very killer sided
- At average MMR, the game is pretty balanced, but RNG can make most matches seem like a blowout one way or the other through crazy tiles that spawn for survivors, or deadzones, or really good 3 gen spawns etc.
- At high mmr, the game is very survivor sided.
However, the RNG in this game is so intense, you could have a low MMR game that is massively survivor sided with a ton of crazy setups (although its less of a problem because the survivors won't know how to use them very well) and similarly have massive deadzones at high mmr leaving the survivors with basically nothing to defend themsevles and creating a big blowout for the killer.
This is a sentiment based solely on feels with no stats to back it up.
At low MMR, the game is very killer sided
And yet I see just as many people also claim that killer is rough when starting out.
At high mmr, the game is very survivor sided.
High mmr four mans have an escape rate just below 50%, sounds balanced ever so slightly in favor of the killer to me and those are the teams many consider to be literally unbeatable. Lower skill killers lose to these teams but think they are better at killer than they actually are.
Doublethink seems to pervade every aspect of the game from the killer perspective. Survivors are bad but also unbeatable. Tunneling only works against low mmr survivors but is also required to beat good survivor teams. The game is survivor sided, yet killers win more than they lose. It can't be both. You can't balance a game off feels.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040118#Comment_4040118
the cooldown is so short that if you keep dropping chase and returning you’ll just make no progress and eventually lose
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040127#Comment_4040127
if you use mindbreaker it might work on some situations but really you’re just allowing the survivor to 99% their sb easier especially if they have a friend telling them ghostface is coming so they leave 2 seconds earlier than usual
there’s a reason why sb is one of the best perks in the game it is great and always useful against every single killer in the gameDropping chase was only one of the possible options available. I can't enumerate all the others because it depends on the killer and the map. There are other survivors in the match, you are not forced to chase this one survivor. You will find one that doesn't have sprint burst, is exhausted, or is in a spot where it makes sense to chase them even if they sprint burst somewhere. If the killer is having trouble downing every survivor in the match why would they deserve to win?
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040122#Comment_4040122
Thats an interesting question. Teabagging especially is widespread in the gaming culture. So why is it far more hated in DBD than in other games?
One reason could be what it stands for/gets associated with. In DBD its normal to get many insulting messages (bc there is no console-chat people even use pms on playstation). First teabags, then messages. So people associate a stronger negative feeling with teabags.
Another reason could be the asymmetric gameplay. If 4 people do it to one person its more similar to bullying as one cod player against another one.
Whatever it is, killer anxiety is a common thing. And i dont really know why it is.
Thats an interesting question. Teabagging especially is widespread in the gaming culture. So why is it far more hated in DBD than in other games?
I thinks its mostly about what you can do about it. In most games both sides have the same options available to them to fight back. They bag you, you respawn, headshot them, and bag right back.
If someone is teabagging in the exit gate you are forced to push them out and take the loss (I really hope they see a lone escaping survivor bagging in the exit as the idiot the survivor clearly is). Same for humping, can't do it until you have the survivor downed where they likely can't do anything about it, possibly until bleed out or till the killer can mori you. If the survivor is bagging in chase, they are actively helping you down them and doing so would likely reset any bad feelings resulting from those bags.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040108#Comment_4040108
Idk what he said but Mathematically it is impossible to “deal” with sprint burst on most killers
This is like saying why dont survivors just outrun the killer if they are so good
There are things in this game which cannot be dealt with no matter your skill on both sides which is why it’s extremely frustrating and unbalanced at times
Most killers have options when the survivor sprint bursts away, one of which is always to drop the chase. Even ghostface has the option to stalk the survivor as they sprint burst away and then go elsewhere. Hag and Trapper can decide whether or not to chase based on whether or not the survivor is headed to an area they have trapped or just an area they want to go to in the first place. All of this is "dealing" with sprint burst without needing to actively outrun the survivor. The whole point of looping is that it gives you a way to "outrun" the killer without needing to be faster than them.
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@GeordieKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040074#Comment_4040074
Its real just not alot of people talk about as majority of the time it gets ridiculed but lately i have seen it gaining strength and more people openly talking about it and less ridicule so that a postive.
and it is very valid and real as dont forget while survivors have teammates/friends to cover their mistakes killer is all by themselves where a single mistake can cost them the whole game (this was even said in the video should give it a watch)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039764#Comment_4039764
I would say personally reduce gen effiency will be a great step to alleviate killer anxiety for example base corrupt and deadlock that would attack the gen effiency and take some anxiety away from the killers about potentially making a bad chase and survivors complete 60% of their objectives in 90 seconds (Gen is worth roughly 20% of their objectives if you wondering where i got 60% from)
Is playing the 1 more stressful than playing as part of the 4 in a 1v4, of course. However, in this specific game a single mistake is much more likely to cost all survivors the match than it is to cost the killer the match. This particular content creator is a killer sided rage farmer in most of their videos, not someone who's content can or should be taken at face value and not someone I am going to gift a watch to. In the last month they have videos claiming that perkless vecna is S-tier and about their current win streak followed by half a dozen saying BHVR hates killers.
Reducing gen efficiency would do nothing to alleviate this stress and just put more burden on survivors to be gen efficient, further pushing casual survivors out of the game. If you make corrupt or deadlock basekit how much time are you going to lop off generators to compensate or how are you otherwise going to nerf killers to maintain a 60% kill rate overall? The only other option would be to buff survivors in some way. If the desired outcome is to increase that overall kill rate then we are trying to disguise a balance change as something else.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040021#Comment_4040021
- the fact that a killer getting high kill rates then gets pushed into high mmr where the swf seal teams live where the kill rates suddenly drop means its survivor sided unless they even it out. killers even it out by either playing s tier killers or tunneling or sometimes both.
- if slugs are spread out the killer cant protect everyone so when the killer is camping 1 slug another can be revived, now there are 2 survivors…killer has to chase 2 people and protect 2 slugs…. how? im solo player and this has happened v a slugging deathslinger pretty recently. i have even managed to crawl to 1 of the hatch spawns when i have been slugged and i have escaped this way. it was very lucky but it has happened. my point is that these situations have a tiny sliver of chance to escape yet survivors can abandon and skip it. This tiny sliver to get a kill v healthy survivor 1m from the exit is much the same. is it possible the survivor messes up and the killer gets a down yes but its highly unlikely, just as unlikely as a survivor able to crawl to the hatch when slugged
- Kill rate for high mmr killers goes up not down. Not much up but still up. So does escape rate for high mmr survivors, from 41% - 42%.
Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR, while that average kill rate increased to 63% for high MMR. This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance.
That's from the January - March stats. Would love more recent and more detailed but this is what we have sadly. The Japan stats don't break anything out by mmr.
High mmr four mans in those stats have an escape rate of 48%. They either get a draw nearly every match and lose a couple or they lose as many matches as they win with some number of draws. Would I love to see this better broken down than just "high mmr," absolutely, but given how loose matchmaking it probably wouldn't matter.
High mmr killers and high mmr survivors also face off against those outside that bracket, its the only way for both KR and ER to go up. That means that killers at high mmr do not face off against swf team six every match. Even if they do, we have stats showing that those teams lose at least as often as they win. If someone loses every match to these teams then they are not as skilled as they think they are. This is all without looking at the proportion of actual high mmr vs high mmr four man matchups which is probably less than cross matchups just based on population of high mmr players and loose matchmaking.
Which killer you play matters of course, but there are also players that win nearly every match they play on almost every killer. LOL on tunneling, in one post people say that tunneling only works on low mmr survivors and then in another people claim high mmr killers use it to gain an upper hand against high mmr survivors, it can't be both.
2. I am not saying its impossible, just unlikely. I have done it before as well but more often than not the result is everyone going down again. In case I wasn't clear I would be perfectly fine with an abandon option for killers if all survivors are in/near an exit gate, I just want all abandons to be tracked correctly for both stats and MMR but I don't believe they are right now. Adding another scenario seems like a bad idea given how they appear to be treated at the moment. (I think the slugged multiple times one should be removed as well)
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039981#Comment_4039981
while you are right some people believe they are in high mmr when they are not but when people maintain very high kill rates for years then logic says they would or should be in high mmr. if someone getting 4k match after match for years doesnt get someone into high mmr than im curious what would?
A killer that is maintaining a very high kill rate and getting 4k match after match for years is also winning the vast majority of their matches. Why would a killer that is doing such ever think the game is survivor sided? Yet this seems to be the exact attitude many have, not all of course. Even if we assume that this is solely because of matchmaking, you can't get into a non-custom match without going through matchmaking.
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040010#Comment_4040010
there is hope when everyone is slugged, someone could have a perk to recover. slugs can move….when all spread out the killer cant defend all slugs, a slug could crawl to a hatch spawn location so when the other 3 bleed out hatch is an option. there is just as little hope for a slugged survivor as there is for the killer with literally no possible way to down a healthy survivor standing 1m from the exit so you cant swing the "hope card" to justify kicking up a fuss over wasted time because it still applies to both sides
OK, one survivor gets up. Now what? Most likely just a doom spiral as the killer realizes and downs them or whoever they pickup or unhook until everyone is down again. The chance of the survivors rallying against an even semi-competent killer in this scenario is unlikely. Could it happen? Sure, but probably not in solo queue and if swf then you know if someone has something or not. The chance of crawling to hatch is basically zero unless you know someone brought an offering, happen to be nearby, and are going to be the last to bleed out.
The actual endgame just sucks in nearly every scenario. All survivors in gate, slug for 4k, everyone slugged, 2v1, all bad. Would I care if the killer could abandon if every survivor was in an exit gate or a similar scenario, not even a little but BHVR seems to be having trouble treating abandons appropriately on the stats site and won't say how they are being counted in the official stats.
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@BlackRabies said:
I have no idea what the eastern players are like other what little I've heard from Hens when he went to Korea. Few things he noticed was that they hardly use any anti tunnel perks cause they found the best way to not go down is just get good at looping.
It's not just DBD pick any game out there and you'll almost always find that the Asians will be more skilled than the western players. They really put in the effort to hone their skills while we don't really try to improve and complain all the time.
Don't take everything content creators say at face value. They have an incentive to do or say whatever they think will get them more views. The actual stats from BHVR show us that Japan has DH as the second most used perk and DS as the eight most used, meanwhile worldwide has DH at 6th and DS at 8th. No other anti-tunnel perk shows up in the top 10, meaning if you consider DH to be anti-tunnel (I do), then arguably they use anti-tunnel more than the rest of the world. It certainly counts amongst the much maligned "second-chance" perks.
In his video, he showcases a small fraction of his matches and an even smaller number of player loadouts. Its weighted heavily towards matches he has a long chase or ones he can showcase his teammates doing something "interesting" in. Its notable how many of those matches include a killer that is using the default skin, not even the bloody version. His last match is even against an onryo with zero tier three perks.All of that also ignores a few additional confounding factor to his "experiment." The first being that these matches take place with the initial "QOL Pallet Density Update" and the most important Hens, a player with 13000 hours, is in every single one of those matches. He has as of yet not shown himself playing killer in Korea and if he does I doubt he will struggle, he has more experience in the game and is better at both sides than the majority of the playerbase.
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Quite similar to my kill rate with the killers I actually have a decent amount of experience with.
