FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033165#Comment_4033165
Yeah, i'm gonna bow out now, no need to be snarky. I saw the charts, i don't remember which one it was, and i'm not replying you at this time anymore. And i don't care enough to argue with a 45 post andy who created a new account because they are too scared to post on their main.
Not being snarky, that is literally how making an argument works. Unless you can back your claim up, why should I believe this list really exists? I'll believe you if you can link to it, I can't find it. Never posted here before, so this is my main. I considered explaining why I joined but I doubt you would read it or care. You going after me and my post count instead of my arguments tells me everything I need to know.
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Have to agree, the killer getting a ridiculous advantage for having high ping is a way bigger issue than tunneling. Bonus, it compounds tunneling, how am I supposed to defend myself from a tunnel out if I make it over a pallet and the killer just gets to hit me from the other side?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033093#Comment_4033093
Last time the released data it was there. I'm not g oing to go digging it up to argue with someone on the internet, if you want it you can go get it.
No it wasn't
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/458829/new-stats-for-the-world-via-japan
No perks stats here
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/503-stats-january-march-2025This is the most recent one before the japan ones that I can find that includes perks and still not broken down that way
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/433-developer-update-statsWhen we make arguments we provide backing for them, that's how this works. You don't get to make a claim and then refuse to back it up.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032808#Comment_4032808
I guess i would counter it by saying, look at the top killer perks in the general population and at high mmr. Not a single one of those perks is in that list. In any case, i would suggest you trying playing a comp match and seeing what its actually like.
Show me this list of top killer perks in high MMR, as far as I am aware we have only ever been given perks usage stats for general population.
Of the top 10 on the killer side, numbers 3 (nowhere to hide), 4 (dms), 5 (lethal pursuer), 7 (BBQ), and 10 (NOED) are all on that list. With Pain res and deadlock also banned for certain tiers and combos.
On the survivor side none of the top 10 perks are outright banned with the first being hit at tier 2 (finesse, dh, ds)
I will direct you to the VODs from the unrestricted comp nights. Blood favor is a common pick, as are devour hope and no way out.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032723#Comment_4032723
So a few things I noticed as a frequent comp watcher who hasn't seen this one (edit to add: I generally don't think comp should be used either way as the focus of discussions, but it seems to have become a huge part of the topic).
1: It's not really unrestricted, the killers are set. If the survivors bring S Tier loadouts, and the Killer is a B tier, its not surprising that the survivors win. That's just an issue with the game's general allowed sweatiness which goes both ways. If this was truly unrestricted every killer would be either Nurse or Blight. The only one of those they did was Blight, and one of the two matches was a 4k.
2: That said, some of the mid tier killers weren't nearly as far off as I expected. They still seemed to be playing for hooks, and a quite a few of these would have been solid results with the rulesets they use (Vecna and Artist notably). The way people have made it sound, unrestricted survivors at comp would be almost impossible to even hook.
3: Did the survivors know the killer they were going to face (it seems like they knew, but I skipped through parts of the video and was just watching, not listening)? @FerrousFacade made a similar point, if I knew the killer I was going to face and had an unrestricted loadout it would be a huge advantage.
4: The difference seems to be perks/items, not looping. Which as FerrousFacade said, feels like moving the goal posts. The thread was about the idea of learning to loop, the argument 'survivors should just bring 4 toolboxes with BNPs' is a different discussion (i.e. whether the game should be designed around everyone just playing maximum sweaty).
I brought up comp because they are incredible loopers with great teammates behind them and they still get tunneled out frequently. Also agree comp shouldn't be the focus and with everything else you stated.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032218#Comment_4032218
Funnyest thing is people still complain about these streaks to show how one role is busted. Well problem is these streaks are done …. with strongest characters,addons,items each side offers so no wonder killers streaks are high on blight,nurse and on survivor its 4man no wonder but can someone tell me where is that 500 wins streak on trapper or ghostface? I bet they dont even exist because chance of them existing are pretty small because all it takes is one good team to break them compare to teams that break these s-tier killers streaks and 4 man swf wins so calling one side busted because it has op things is qute lame. Some streaks are possible in every game but not to such numbers with normal things so I doubt there is duo win streak with 500+ escapes or dreadge winstreak with same nuber.
OnePumpWillie's trapper streak went to 210 matches, not 500 but for a killer people claim is "unplayable" at high mmr it is a massive streak.
This is the match he lost, you can find more matches on his channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjLUD1sW2M4&t=9s -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032794#Comment_4032794
But again, look at the killer perks in question Aside from DMS none of those perks are actually "good" in the sense that every killer would run them. They are just boring and lead to boring gameplay.
Your gonna have to define good here since we clearly have very different definitions. They make the match boring and lead to boring game play because they are strong perks that have a significant effect on the match. How is DMS the only perk on that list that is "good?"
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032713#Comment_4032713
Comp does not have has heavy of restrictions on killer that they do survivor with the exception of probably nurse and blight.
They typically play on the killer's best map, with a lot of perks locked on survivor side as well as the limitation of 1 perk per team. On the killer side the restrictions are less about power and more about "this is unfun" or "creates a boring to watch gameplay pattern" I.E. Things like nowhere to hide, which are restricted less due to power, and more that it just completely shuts down stealth in general, which is especially relevant since only 1 survivor could have distortion for example.
I disagree about the perk limitations. Until you start getting down low into the tiers, killers are hit way harder. If you told me base game was going to use comp perks, addon, and item limitations tomorrow and I would somehow be allowed to setup alternate perks or loadouts that I would get instead of my current for certain killers I would take it in a heartbeat. I don't really see a way to add the single perk limitation to solo q without a lot of other changes and don't think ds should be banned ever (comp can keep doing as they please) but I would absolutely take the trade.
Standouts to me on killer side
- Sooooo much aura read, which is way way stronger for killers than survivor aura read on the killer
- DMS
- Dissolution
- Friends
- Blood favor
- devour hope
- noed
- no way out
- Tier 1: Grim embrace, dead lock, pain res
- Tier 2: still grim embrace
Combos that stand out
- Enduring hubris
- endfury
- pain res + grim embrace
Standouts on survivor side
- babysitter
- bgp
- dramaturgy
- stake out + hyperfocus (not actually a combo but no one runs stake out without hyperfocus)
- kindred (from a solo q standpoint only, doesn't actually do anything for these players)
- off the record
- Shoulder the burden
- vigil
- Tier 2: dead hard, overcome, ds. deliverance, resurgence
Sprint burst and Lithe are only banned against certain killers once you hit tier 3 and only altogether once you hit tier 4
Ya, I would take this trade any day. No more Yamori and Centipede on ghoul, sign me up.
How is suffocation pit plague's (or any killers really) best map? Billy on blood lodge? I see this argument made a lot but it doesn't make sense to me.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032728#Comment_4032728
no problem i am sorry if my tone comes off rude in any case
Sorry as well.
I have been looking for exactly this for a little while, surprised I didn't think to check old broadcasts. I will be watching in full later but did a quick scroll through. Day one definitely seems to be dominated by survivor but day two seems more balanced, will have to see if they changed something up for that day. A little surprised by the unknown/doctor 4ks (not by blight lol).
Truth is, I do not mind being tunneled, I can handle it, I don't always make it but oh well (unless they only get it because of them having bad ping, then its just bull). However, I have had too many friends drop the game because of it, yes in their case its often a skill issue, but when its happening in an event queue at five gens multiple matches in a row I can't really blame them for calling it and yes, we are talking hard tunneling of the first hooked survivor multiple matches in a row. In one standout match the Vecna had zero gens completed, me in chase already injured, and flew back to the hook half way across the map to tunnel, the last survivor was in the void getting a crystal. Zero gen pressure.
I think its just too easy to play like that and it leaves whoever is left in a most likely unwinnable match just waiting to die, that isn't fun and it happens way too often. Killers have way more snowball potential than survivors do, the match is often (yes not always) winnable right up until they end for them, survivors just don't have real comeback potential.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032716#Comment_4032716
it was streamed live on dbdleague twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2598497529 thats the first vod
Thank you
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032704#Comment_4032704
You cannot be using that as an example. those guys have their own rules and restrictions. For example afaik myers plays only on hawkins in their sets. If anything it shows that tunneling is a necessity at that level
Also they switch sides so it’s not even comparable to normal dbd. Dbdleague had a no restrictions night where survivors just bsolutely demolished with slippery meat build.
Is there a video of that unrestricted night? I would love to see it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032669#Comment_4032669
Comp also has heavy restrictions on survivors such as not being able to bring certain perks, or not duplicating perks. So often there's really only 1, maybe 2 targets that you can't tunnel due to things like DS. But if you avoid the obsession then you likely just tunnel that person out. In a normal DBD game, there is nothing stopping all 4 survivors from running DS/DH etc.
Ping factors in every single multiplayer game ever, so bringing that up like its unique to DBD is not really productive.
Comp has restrictions on the killer as well, and the survivors know exactly which killer on which map they are facing. Yes, its not perfectly comparable to public matches but these survivors do get tunneled out. If looping could stop that like people claim here then they wouldn't get tunneled out.
Ping is dramatically more detrimental to survivors in this game than killers and dramatically more important in this game than others, it is absolutely a relevant part of the discussion.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032704#Comment_4032704
You cannot be using that as an example. those guys have their own rules and restrictions. For example afaik myers plays only on hawkins in their sets. If anything it shows that tunneling is a necessity at that level
Suddenly we aren't talking about looping, now perks matter. Stop moving the goal posts.
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032704#Comment_4032704
I’m talking about the middle 80% of players, not the ones on the extreme side of being really good or really bad. Using comp leagues to generalize about the player base is extremely flawed.
If you want to show us how well tunneling works against really good loopers, please go ahead and post some of video and I will gladly admit that you are right.
Oh look, I did what you asked. Stop moving the goal posts. These are the best loopers in the game and they get tunneled out.
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@Classic_Rando said:
People make this statement because it’s 100% true. If a survivor can take the killer on an extended chase (ie THEY ARE GOOD AT LOOPING), it makes tunneling far less of an effective strategy. If you want to show us how well tunneling works against really good loopers, please go ahead and post some of video and I will gladly admit that you are right.
https://www.youtube.com/@dbdleague
Are these bad survivors? Season 10 had 2.9 kills/game average. These matches typically revolve around tunneling.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032612#Comment_4032612
I think you are misunderstanding my point.
I'm not saying that "learning to loop" is the counter to tunneling. I'm saying that, if you "learn to loop" killers who tunnel you, will more often than not, lose the game by doing so because they aren't spreading pressure, and you are able to last longer than 5 seconds against them.
The games where i see tunneling work, are games where the survivor goes down 10 seconds into the chase, the games where it doesn't work, are games where a survivor can loop the shack forcing the 3 window vault, stunning at a filler, heading to a jungle gym and repeating the process forcing the down to take 1-2 minutes each time.
Your ignoring a lot of factors that can dramatically effect whether or not the killer loses the game doing it. And yes I have looped killers for long enough that they lose the game going for me.
Ping. I would be more OK with telling people this if I didn't commonly face 100+ ping killers that just get to hit me while I'm already across a pallet (my ping typically sits around 40 by the way). Any looping skills the survivor has in that situation are pointless.
50/50s. Which, yes, you should do your best to avoid when being tunneled but they absolutely will come up at some point. If the killer can't find a way to force a 50, even if it takes them a bit of time to do so, that is a skill issue on the killers part. Lose it and you get hit/downed, win and the killer just gets to try again, sometimes immediately. A survivor has the possibility of losing every 50/50 in a match, were they a bad survivor or did they just get unlucky?
Which killer, get tunneled out by a trapper, ya probably skill issue on the survivor. Get tunneled out by a decent nurse or blight? Guess I'll just die.
Comp dbd is played largely around a tunnel out and, despite claims to the contrary, most matches end in a 3k or 4k. Are these survivors bad? Sure seems like they can't loop long enough to guarantee the killer loses.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032203#Comment_4032203
Why are you fighting me then. WE AGREE. I want nurse, blight and ghoul nerfed, I want A-Tier to be the standard. As I said, I haven't seen anyone asking for the pallets to receive the skull merchant treatment, they all wanted reverts, just like me. I agree on the 2k winstreak thing too. All this while being a killer main. I didn't have any say in this, if I did elusive would still exist, 1v4 would have the ability to alternate automatically between killer and survivor. And trust me, most killers would agree that killing the need to mindgame wasn't on their wishlist.
BHVR is the one dumbing down this game not killer mains, not even the hedge cases who would advocate for something like this had anything to do with this. BHVR made the call, they are the ones to call out.
Maybe you as a killer main didn't but its clear from the responses they got that many do. Haddonfield is the only realm that got more votes on an option that wasn't "favors survivors" and even then nearly a quarter of respondents stated it favors survivors.
I agree that we ultimately need to call out BHVR for pushing the update but at some point it needs to be accepted that every social media platform is dominated by killer mains and killer narratives. Just look at how many people you see doubting the 70% of players wanted 2v8 extended.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031729#Comment_4031729
You probably didn't play the asylum map.. 4 god pallets in main building, with tons of safe pallets around the building.
I loaded into Disturbed Ward three times in customs, the only pallet that spawned in main each time was a single upstairs one. Maybe you got a bugged spawn. That's also ignoring that they cut the size of the fillers in half.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031824#Comment_4031824
"If the guy using fists wins against guys with swords every time or most of the time, even against skilled guys with swords, then something about fighting with fists, or the way they specifically fight with fists, is actually giving them an advantage over guys with swords."
Just no. The vast majority of everyone would not think this in the scenario I described.
ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha, I'm sorry but that is the only reasonable response. When facts and data don't back up a hypothesis then the hypothesis is proven false unless new facts and data come around to support it.
You setup a hypothetical scenario with a single fight where it looks like the guy with the sword has an advantage, if it turns out that after a large series of fights that the guy with fists is actually winning, even against skilled opponents, then the hypothesis that the swords are giving these people an advantage is proven incorrect. In that, again hypothetical, situation this guy could teach others how to fight against swords like him and they would have similar results. Since this is hypothetical and not a real situation it doesn't matter how unrealistic that is. Stop glazing yourself and join the real world. Not responding again.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031761#Comment_4031761
"And yet you beat those four mans, every time. If you can outplay it, every time, that advantage doesn't really exist."
Again, more hyperbole. Being able to outplay something, doesn't mean the advantage doesn't exist, that makes no sense. If two guys are fighting, one's using fists, the other has a sword, but the guy with fists wins, that doesn't mean the guy with the sword didn't have an advantage lol. It just meant the guy with fists had to be significantly more skilled to win and it wasn't a fair match. If both had been equally skilled the guy with the fists would lose every time. Just because he's outplaying the guys with swords doesn't mean the guys with swords shouldn't be balanced better.
"Yes, it does mean something with the proper comparison and that proper comparison is comp killer win streaks which go significantly longer."
No, they do not. The only time the killer streaks are going longer like you're referencing are the few outlier top tier killers that are an exception. Which none of the stuff I've said here I'm applying to them, they even would be nerfed if it was up to me. For the vast majority of the killer roster however, their streaks are not going longer.
A single fight isn't a real comparison. If the guy using fists wins against guys with swords every time or most of the time, even against skilled guys with swords, then something about fighting with fists, or the way they specifically fight with fists, is actually giving them an advantage over guys with swords.
I don't think this is worth continuing.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031748#Comment_4031748
I never said the game was balanced against me. What I said was that it isn't balanced vs a 4 man.
Someone can have an unfair advantage and you still beat them regularly. It doesn't change that it's an unbalanced advantage. Thankfully being higher skilled you can outplay that advantage a good amount of the time.
Does me pointing out a comp survivor with a crazy high win rate mean anything? No, they're just better than most the people they're facing. Their win rate doesn't mean there isn't balance problems.
And yet you beat those four mans, every time. If you can outplay it, every time, that advantage doesn't really exist.
Yes, it does mean something with the proper comparison and that proper comparison is comp killer win streaks which go significantly longer.
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This is again, you making an assumption. Like I've got 12k hours in DBD and an extremely high kill rate on some killers (like high 95%+ with hundreds and hundreds of matches in that sample size). I can tell when a match is lost through skill mismatch vs balance problems. Calling those squad matchups lost from skill instead of balance, is you assuming.
This right here says everything we need to know. You have a 95% kill rate, literally a win EVERY match kill rate, and you still think the game is balanced against you.
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We absolutely need proper hit validation/authority, I suspect its the biggest issue leading to survivor frustration with the game, yes even more than the things we didn't get from the PTB (though can we please at least look at slug for the 4k, its such a waste of time).
Playing survivor in chase is all about managing the distance between yourself, resources, and the killer. That all gets thrown out the window when the killer can just hit me AFTER I have made it over the resource. How can I defend myself against a tunneling killer if they are just gonna hit me from the other side of a pallet, something that only happens when the killer has bad ping. There is no point being even decent at survivor if the killer is just going to get free hits on you thanks to their bad ping.
If the killer hit gets validated and the killer is the one that has bad ping, I really do not care that they saw the blood or heard the injure noise and then didn't get the hit, its not my problem, its a problem with them and their internet. I agree BHVR needs more servers in more locations and it sucks for people not near them but the current solution of just favoring the killer is absurd.
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The problem with buffing killer perks is that I don't think they can be buffed in a way that they become stronger than just stacking slowdown perks without them becoming too oppressive. In my opinion, the biggest thing limiting killer perk variety is the fact that you can stack slowdown, meaning gens speeds need to balanced around the possibility of the killer stacking slowdown, meaning slowdown perks become necessary to bring unless you excel at the killer side of the game.
On the survivor side I agree that I have more variety already, but typically end up lamenting that I didn't bring the meta perk that helps counter whatever basekit strat the killer decides to employ. If we want these perks to become less meta, you would have to look at why survivors bring those perks…….
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031577#Comment_4031577
The problem with what you're suggesting is it would be interpreted for balance by the player base. Whether that's kill rates going up or down it doesn't matter, it's still giving a false perception of the games balance to killers or survivors. Now if you want to have them just show us the DC rate stats, I'm totally fine with that, since it wouldn't be misleading and skewing peoples perceptions of balance.
I'm not against more data, I'm against how you're wanting it presented that would mislead people on the games balance. It's very easy for people to misinterpret data. As said above, if you want to see how bad the dc epidemic is with just dc stats and then we can extrapolate the impact of that on games, I'm all for that, we can use that to make positive changes. However kill rate stats specifically are there for balance interpretation and we don't want those stats artificially influenced by things not related to balance.
For example, knowing that 60% of people dc against SM is good information since this shows people really don't like something about her and she probably needs changes, that's useful. Just throwing those dc wins into her kill rate however, now makes it look like she's just over-tuned. One shows a power problem, one shows a design/fun/interactivity problem. Two very different outcomes with how the data is presented.
Any data we are given will get misinterpreted or misconstrued to fit a narrative. Just look at the Japan data, one content creator pushes the narrative that is just "mentality" differences when there is zero evidence to back that claim up. If there are mentality differences, no one even considers that they potentially have the causality backwards, better outcomes (for survivors) leading to better mentality. It also ignores that basically anyone who even knows those stats exist, watches a video on them, or discusses them somewhere already has a different mentality about the game.
The playerbase already has a skewed perception of balance. We have data showing that 4 man SWF in high MMR have a below 50% escape rate and people will still claim that these squads are unbeatable. The January to March stats stated that kill rate for high MMR killers goes up from 60 overall to 63 and escape rate for high MMR survivor also goes up from 41 overall to 42. Yet, we still have people that at high MMR the game becomes survivor sided. At some point you just have to stop caring what these people think and ignore whatever narrative they are trying to push.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031561#Comment_4031561
You're referencing value on them outside of kills for balancing, but what other value would you draw from that? Give me an example. Note we aren't saying tracking dc rates, they can already see that internally, what value from specifically making it effect the kill rate stats we're shown.
The Kill Rate with DCs is the real experience of the game, this would have a direct impact on how people view and discuss the game. Maybe it even turns out that killers DC way more than we think and Kill Rates actually go down from including DCs. I think that's unlikely, but would be happy to be proven wrong. If it instead shows us that survivors DC in say 30% of matches, then yes we do have a DC epidemic and points to there being a serious problem with the health of the game AND would show that the 60 percent kill rate they show us is basically meaningless as far as real experience queuing into a match is concerned.
Really, any data BHVR can provide I would love to see. Why does it seem like you are against BHVR providing us with more data?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031548#Comment_4031548
Kill stats involving dc's are irrelevant. The stats purpose is for balance. You don't gauge balancing on games that might have only been won because of a dc, that wouldn't make sense. Why a game is a win or loss matters a lot more than just if it was a win or loss.
Stats are stats and can be used for whatever purpose we decide to use them for. I specifically stated we shouldn't use the stat with DCs to balance the game. They are absolutely relevant to my experience in the game, if my teammate DCs I still have to play through that match. That experience is valid and worth examining.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031480#Comment_4031480
Well again we cannot assume a higher % kill rate because as we agreed before, we don't know if they are including the abandons in their official stats released to us. Also, I know your anecdotals were dc's more relating to losses, however most my dc's are near the beginning before the games even lost.
We can assume a higher real kill rate though. Survivors DC more and those matches typically end in the killer winning. Obviously we shouldn't count those matches for balancing reasons and the numbers should be presented both with and without but it would be helpful to know what kill rates look like when these matches are included. If there is a high enough discrepancy between the two it might even be the kick some people need to DC less.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031406#Comment_4031406
To be fair, I may be mad at that Steve because he dropped a pallet on my friend and nearly cost his adept. I don't blame the Steve for giving the 3 gen (I don't know the actual chances of 3 gens all spawning in main but it feels low enough to not expect it) I blame him for nearly killing my friend and then having a staring contest with a Myers which led to the tombstone.
You seem to think I want the mechanic to be removed, but I don't, like I said in my reply to firellius I like this mechanic and I don't want it removed. It keeps the match shorter, which lets the game feel more arcadey which I like. However, it can objectively be used against the killer and put them at a disadvantage. Just like we've both probably 3 genned to win, I also guarantee you've used this mechanic to your advantage (just like me).
The only point where I've found this mechanic problematic is in 2v8 where I think the cap should be raised. Other than that it's just balancing the 3 gen mechanic while allowing it to still exist.
Fair enough, sorry for insinuating you wanted it removed, and I am back on your side about the Steve lol at least as far as tombstone and pallets go. I don't think I have ever seen all three gens spawn in nostromo main, but I tend to prioritize the big table gen on that map since its so central and may have broken (or just died) before noticing it was there.
I would argue that depending on the exact setup, three gens can put the killer or the survivors at a disadvantage, biggest variables being how tight and which killer. Your example would put the killer at a disadvantage, especially old myers, but mine put the survivors at a disadvantage (mine was a weird one on Toba Landing rocky side may not be remembering exactly correctly, far corner gen turned such that the gen was on the side facing most into the map, a gen in the maze tile next to it that spawned as a four lane, lanes open towards the rest of the rocky side, and then one in front of main by the tall stairs, never seen it again and kinda hope that it was just a bugged spawn).
I have absolutely three genned to win and played the long game against a three gen holder to escape.
I disagree with with increasing the cap for 2v8 as I want that mode to remain somewhat loose and two killers can absolutely hold a six gen fairly well as is. I also just don't believe the claims about the mode being mega survivor sided and my personal stats on the mode back that up. Anecdotal I know, but 55% team KR overall and around 63% team KR on killers I actually play mix of duo and solo killer queuing, 63% ER (no idea how many team loss but hatch escapes, it is noted amongst friends I play with how often I seem to get hatch). All while not playing a ton of killer outside 2v8, queue times at the time I play, in my region are longer on the killer side and I would rather get into a match than wait in queue.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031348#Comment_4031348
The killer has to defend three gens though. I didn't mean everyone just rats around 1 gen, I mean you as an individual tunnel vision 1 gen with maybe one other survivor. Then the others do their own thing, while you pressure this 1 point. Its not hard to run away when you hear a terror radius. If a survivor fails a prerun that's a skill issue, especially when there's other survivors pressuring another point or being as annoying as possible.
I one time had a match with a couple friends against a Myers. The rando Steve gave him a 3 gen (the three gen in nostromo main building) and we used this strat and he could do nothing. He got a 1k with tombstone because the random was terrible and messed up my friend (who I died for so he could get adept). All you have to do is wait for a slight change in tr and then run to a strong tile. It's impossible to die during this process if you do it right, unless you get the killer to commit (in which case they get a 1k or 2k max). Its a slow process but a pretty safe one so long as you have 3 people or more.
No single player can give a killer a three gen, it either spawned in that way and the killer chose to camp it from the get go or its a team effort that you are blaming on the one person that can't defend themself, since they're not in your voice call. Either you and your friends helped do some of the gens leading to the three gen or this Steve was the only person working on generators.
I have seen three gens spawn in that the huntress could hold a hatchet from the center of and hit anyone working on any of the three generators or walk over to any of the three within 5 seconds. She camped it from the start of the match. Why should the killer be allowed to hold something like that indefinitely? She won, of course, there was no way to break that without comp level coordination. Guess I get to lose for the mistake of playing DBD in the first place.
A three gen can already be used by the killer to stage a comeback, I've done it and I bet you have as well. A limit needs to be placed on these things, otherwise survivors have no chance of, you know, surviving.
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Oooh, I had considered they abandoned but the mention of leaving made me assume this was a last straw gen rush before uninstall. On the survivor side abandoning does sometimes show as you escaping, its just inconsistent about it.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031219#Comment_4031219
You can slowdown gens all you want but with current maps. That doesnt do much for most of the rost especially when exhaustion perks are at play.
If you are OK with me knowing which killer I am going into a match against I would be OK having an alternate perk to replace my exhaustion perk, or even a full alternate loadout when going against lower tier killers. Since that is never going to happen and those perks are necessary when going against the high tier killers we are going to have to do something else.
I would be in favor of altering gen speeds and map setups based on which killer is being faced, but I also suspect this will never happen and again would result in me having an idea of which killer I am facing when I load in.
In either case you still need to address tunneling, otherwise gen speeds still need to be fast enough to offset the possibility of the survivors being in an early 3v1. Gen speeds must be balanced against the strongest thing the killer can do, so long as tunneling exists, gen speeds must be fast, they go hand in hand.
A similar thing applies to gen slowdown perks, so long as these perks exist gen speeds must be balanced against the possibility of the killer bringing in a full gen slowdown build. The only solution is to delete from the game ever perk and item that effects gen speeds on both sides and then adjust gen speeds as needed.
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031133#Comment_4031133
Yes, and they should do nothing about it because it’s not a problem for survivors who know how to deal with it. Like I’ve said many times already, tunneling and slugging don’t work against good survivors. The demands that “something has to be done” are coming from players who honestly probably need to get a bit better at sustaining chases or if they’re not the ones being tunneled, get gens done.
Go watch a comp match, tunneling and slugging is the majority of the play, regardless of which killer is being played. Guess those are bad survivors since it sure seems to work on them. Season 10 of DbdLeague had a 46 percent 4k rate with an average of 2.9 kills per game (72.5% KR). Despite the claims you may see that comp dbd is survivor sided, the actual league stats tell a very different story.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031210#Comment_4031210
Literally trapper is only useable because of tunneling and camping lol. Any decent survivor will just follow you around popping all your traps to force you to focus your attention on them or else once they get unhooked they do the same routine. These killers literally ARE only playable because of tunneling and severe survivor mistakes which genuinely shouldn't happen at the rate they do.
I would also trust NightLights stats WAY more than BHVRs stats any day. You never know what BHVR wants to skew with their stats while nightlight is submitted via players. Also about Gideons. Are we forgetting that its STILL boosted with a couple other maps meaning the other maps that aren't boosted would naturally have more volatile stats?
Severe survivor mistakes sound like a skill issue to me. Note that I also expect gens to be slowed down or some other form of compensation to be given to killers alongside this, it would be a net boon for lower tier killers that have a harder time tunneling good survivors out.
Got it, The Game, Lery's (6th), and Garden of Joy (12th) are now killer sided maps, you heard it here first folks, lets chat about how we can buff these maps for survivors /s. The map data and kill rate data come from the same data set, any claim of volatility applies to both.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031202#Comment_4031202
If you look on nightlight right now the best kill rate is legit 60% and held by Freddy lol. Some killers are dropping nearly to the 40% mark. And that just shows that once you take out all the survivor that are bad in the normal queue. This game is WAY worse than you originally think.
Kill rates are NOT a one all concrete indication of the balance for the game and never was. It's a sign yes but just that a sign. This is why I laugh at the indication "you can easily get a 70% KR on ghost face" because that only implies you go against bot level of skill in your games. It's the whole reason I use "against good/competent survivors" since that's WHAT we should be balancing around as those are what indicate a killer being weak or strong even IF soloq.Nightlight data is trash and has been for a while. It also currently shows The Game as being the fifth most deadly map or fourth most deadly since one of the maps shown isn't actually available outside of custom matches (badham 3, another great example of how bad the data here is). Are you going to agree with it that The Game is a killer sided map?
https://nightlight.gg/maps/viewer?sort=kill&shown=pick%7Ckill%7Cdist&start_days=28
On the actual topic at hand, the highest tier and lowest tier killers need the most focus, they need the most balancing. One of the best things we can do to nerf the high tiers is to nerf tunneling. If you get tunneled out by a trapper that is a skill issue on the survivor, if you can't tunnel out someone as blight/nurse, that is a skill issue on the killer. The argument that we need to keep tunneling for the sake of low tier killers makes no sense to me. -
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031113#Comment_4031113
Last 30 days. My all time is like… over thousand of matches? If not counting events. its not reaally hard to realise it, cause I showed around 8 games only within 24 hours. People who barely play surv have long pauses between matches usually.
Cheryl is like a brand example of what I had when just started the game. Everyone else are just chill evenings with slow improvement. I barely DCed, and rarely abandon, so unironically finding my stats clean. Yes DCing inflating stats and I am up to wait for them fixing this bs.
But until then, stat page is the only thing people can use for showing their position. So is it worthy blaming in advance, or its better just asking person showing recent game stats without blurring it? Usually they are a good reflection of reality, tho can't say same about killer games.
Each individual match is anecdotal at best and says little about your overall performance as killer or survivor. I do agree a four minute match as killer sucks and shouldn't be possible. However, matchmaking is trash, as we have noted. Did you get paired with survivors better than you (trash matchmaking/skill issue) or is it really just gen speeds? I'm not judging either way, I'm not a good killer and wouldn't claim to be one.
If it is gen speeds I don't think most killers would be OK with the solutions needed to solve that and those things do include a nerf to tunneling. Gen speed needs to be balanced against the strongest things a killer can do, whatever that may be at the time, and right now its getting a survivor out of the game as fast as possible while running full slowdown on a high tier killer. If you just increase gen speed all you will have done is make tunneling and camping stronger. If you introduce incentives to not tunnel that are stronger than tunneling, gens would need to be made FASTER to compete against whatever this new thing is.
Basically everyone agrees the S tiers need a nerf and making tunneling harder/punishing tunneling is a bigger nerf to the S tier than anyone else. If you get tunneled out by a trapper, that is a skill issue on the survivor, if you can't tunnel someone out fast as blight or nurse, that is a skill issue on the killer. If either of the PTBs had gone live, with or without adjustments, we likely would have seen gens slowed down. How long that might take would be annoying but it would happen, especially if kill rates dropped.
If killers ever want to feel like running a full/near full slowdown build isn't required then BHVR would need to delete every gen slowdown perk (and every gen speed up item and perks) from the game or limit the number anyone can take in a build (either way with updates to gen speeds to balance). Otherwise gens will continue to need to be balanced around the possibility of a killer bringing a full slowdown build.
I would personally be in favor of altering gen speeds/map setup based on killer rather than trying to nerf/buff most killers in the game but BHVR seems to want there to be low tier and high tier killers. Couldn't tell you why but they seem to want it and it leaves us with this mess.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031061#Comment_4031061
Are people genuinely cant get concept some are just playing the game and don't struggle as average survivor who people try to victimise?
I don't know about OP. But personally having between 45-55% being solo only I can have really different kind of games. I was curious and even checked my last games before uninstalled.Some tie because all people played match normally (tho many questions to Steeve)
Some demolish because killer struggledSome games where people not even want to try (thats why I have sole survivor)
Some games where I was hardtunneled, yet killer spend 5 gens on me, went to tilt, skipped me, and killed random person on endgame.Some games with one crybaby who Dced on 5 gens and two people who seeing ruin barely did any gens, so you actually stealth for hatch (and manage going through gates when killer have no way out)
Wow. Another crybaby who tried to heal under hook against sweaty Blight, and DCed when saw person not following rule book. It actually could be the win - killer tried to tunnel me, after David, realised he losing it and were forced to slug everyone on last 80% gen. If not a bot and bad MMR who knows …. :/Sometimes you are just a loser who are getting hardtunneled, killer spend over 4 minutes on you, but your teammates have allergy on gens.
Or it is killer losing his mind here.
DBD can be really different if you don't DC seeing slight inconvinience and not just mid player trying hide huge skill issue by casual play. I am myself pretty casual player who doesnt have more than 400h on surv, because played as 50/50 player. And since MMR is random and I had many moments of playing against p100 5k+ hours Blights, Nurses, and whatever people love to complain on, I doubt its gonna be any different. Only upped my rate more likely, improving in chases. When I played on Asia it was unironically higher than 60%, last months I played on EU.
People with rate above 40 aren't some magical animal or rats. Sometimes they just playing the game. And they arent sweats who going spoil your mood.Another 20 hour survivor or are those just last 30 days? Do neither of you realize there is an overall escape rate? Who you play as on the survivor side is meaningless. At 20 hours you could be playing against baby killers, people returning to the game after a break, or complete random since I agree that matchmaking is trash.
I do perfectly fine on survivor and nowhere here do I complain about anything. Since you trust the stats website so much here is mine. I am simply trying to point out that the stats site is trash, it inflates escape rates and probably isn't accurately reflecting kill rates either.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031061#Comment_4031061
what exactly do you want to know from my stats page? i cannot make you believe in what I say. Ill tell you this I have hatch escapes and exit gate escapes like everu survivor. I do not have a hatch build. I havent kept track of my abandons. I think if i lost every game it would show in a low escape rate tho. What I can tell you for sure is that I haven’t had tunneling or camping complaints in majority of my survivor matches at least from myself personally. It’s usually an unfair matchmaking scenario leading to a stomp for either side.
it seems to me that you cannot accept the fact that someone might find soloq survivor playable or fun. Thats really not my problem.I am trying to explain that the stats page is meaningless and does not accurately reflect anything. If you escape via hatch, your whole team can die and that still counts as an escape for you but your team lost that match. You abandon and your escape rate is inflated but you lost that match and it should be counted as you dying.
Kill rate at least somewhat reflects your actual performance as a killer (though I suspect abandons do some bullshit to those as well). Escape rate does not.
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And on a second look, you have what? 20 hours in survivor?
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Multiple problems with the stats you show. The biggest of which is you can just go in and make the page say whatever you want and then screenshot it.
How many times did you escape via hatch? Do you just hide the match out for hatch and leave your teammates to die? How often in those escape streaks did the survivor escape via hatch rather than the door? Did they manage to get that escape streak to 200+?
Abandon any matches? Those are ignored like DCs.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030869#Comment_4030869
How is that a logical conclusion, console is harder so it must be that killers are worse? Japan has more soloq players btw and still has a lower kill average vs world despite soloq being so supposedly terrible so its most likely a mentality among Japanese players.
Which if true would mean that globally, surv entitlement is the issue.
Killer IS harder on controller than mouse and keyboard, that is a fact, and if more killers are playing on controller it IS logical to expect them to do worse. Your claim that player mentality differences are the cause is the illogical one. Unless you have a mental link into those players thoughts and feelings about the game you are just making things up. The only place I have ever seen claiming that mentalities differ comes from content creators who obviously have an incentive to glaze themself and the people they play with.
Other more logical possibilities
- Hit and run is a more common tactic, which does worse than camp/tunnel
- Ping, the Tokyo server is centrally located and covers a significantly smaller geographic area, it is common to see killers with 100+ ping in NA which gives them a major advantage
- Smaller playerbase, with how piss poor matchmaking is a smaller playerbase makes it more likely you will be paired with other decent players
Ultimately, the kill rate is still close to the 60 percent mark that BHVR shoots for and unless BHVR releases stats for every region we can't even be sure its actually an outlier or just on the lower end of a bell curve.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019082#Comment_4019082
I'm sorry, but the average outcome is not the same discussion as the average kill rate.
I don't know where you got your data, but assuming it is correct…If you want to talk about how 4k's and 0k's being the most common outcomes is a problem, you will need to start a different discussion. My comment is not disproven by your allegation.The part I am disputing is that a 1k is guaranteed. Imperfect stats can be found on nightlight.gg, I look every so often. Most matches end in a 0k or a 4k, a 1k is not guaranteed and is amongst the least common outcomes. This is obviously not true for every killer and the data on nightlight has a selection bias.
I am also not agreeing with OP, both roles are hard. -
@KayTwoAyy said:
Not so much that killer should be easy, but getting zero kills should be hard.
The Kill Rate effectively starts 25%, rather than 0%. I don't know if this is why the devs chose 60%, but it is how I understand it.
Downvote me all you want, but the math checks out. If 1 kill is effectively guaranteed, a 50% kill rate becomes a 62.5% kill rate.But this isn't true at all. The most common outcomes are, in order of how common they are: 4k, 0k, 3k, 1k, 2k. Most matches are snowbally blowouts for one side or the other.
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Scott Jund recently showed his escape rate in a video. I compared it to his vods since his last 30 days is only a couple days of survivor. The only way to make the escape rate match his site was to treat the abandons as DCs, which will inflate the escape rate you are shown. The more you abandon the more inflated it will be.
Data, apologies for poor format i am no datasheet wizard
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ7C_WqGX6Z4unBAFCwSGEiENsUfIFNKFley6ylwqj5vWNGoymqnRcH1NPfBLe-k_zB_InVa92yhoGB/pubhtmlBreakdown, you can ignore the second half unless your interested in how his Solo Queue compares to his Duo Queue (no comms)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO1Ha23-VvA