EleaticStranger
EleaticStranger
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- EleaticStranger
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@joel84 said:
That's what they're there for
First Genregress, than camping, than tunneling, now Totems. What's next? DS DH Windows combos are boring and if time is such a big problem for you, why do you play at all?
IT IS WHAT IT IS..... change my mind
This is the right way to think about it. Most perks are almost useless and are therefore almost never used. Now there's a reason for survivors to diversify their builds to deal with guarded hex totems. Behind these complaints, I suspect, is the desire to run a metabuild without consequences.
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There are definitely bugs, but I've gotten better with her power pretty quickly, and I really enjoy the killer. I have confidence they'll sort out the bugs, and I hope people give Houndmaster a chance.
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Freddy is not only un-fun but, as a licensed character, he carries the additional burden of being true to his depiction in the films. The dbd version is not Freddy Krueger. It's some stupid mix of abilities that was meant to compensate for bad game design. Blood puddles? Fake pallets? Teleportation? Not only boring to play but completely fake interpretation of an iconic character.
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I play killer and survivor. I think it's a great change. Keys are a problem, but I would prefer a nerf to exhaustion perks across-the-board as a balancing measure. I don't know what change would make sense but one Dead Hard can alter the outcome of a whole match and in that respect exhaustion perks are comparable to moris.
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Eliminate or heavily nerf exhaustion perks and moris.
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@Moundshroud said:
I play a lot; I see a LOT of disconnects. I see JUST AS MANY... if not more... disconnects where there are no Mori at all. Bad sports will disconnect if they don't like the Killer, if they get downed, if they get a Pig Trap on their face, if they get hooked once.... yadda... yadda... yadda. Are there some people disconnecting because they are afraid of Mori? Probably, but it isn't statistically relevant as far as I can tell.
Maybe you're right. I don't know if it's statistically relevant. I guess I posted this to see if people think it is. I don't know. I certainly agree there are a lot of disconnects for many reasons that have mostly to do with bad sportsmanship. I do support the DC penalty. I also think moris should be changed significantly even if there's no correlation.
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Ya, I think so. I'm sure some people don't. If moris are gonna work that way, either provide some kind of counter or make them far less common. I don't know. I just want to establish the strong correlation between DCs and moris.
I haven't played much since that 7 match streak, but here's where it stands for me: 12 matches when killer brings mori, at least one DC in 8 of those matches. Multiple DCs in 3 of those 8 matches.
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Well, I was suggesting that moris should be far less common or somehow altered. Currently, too many people feel there is no incentive to play out or even begin a match if the killer brings a mori. DC penalty might reduce the number of DCs, but it wouldn't improve the game.
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@Hopesfall said:
I still don't understand how it overrides a status called "Undetectable"
the logic is astounding
Maybe it could be nerfed? Spine Chill doesn't work with killer in Undetectable, but otherwise stays the same as it is. That seems fair.
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Her add ons suck cuz many of them encourage hard tunneling but I quite enjoy playing as and against Pig. Changes the add ons, the rest is fine.
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It's another example of a contrived challenge that makes players behave terribly in matches. Not to mention the ambiguity of the description. ######### does it even mean? I don't know and I don't care.
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It comes down to reasons. Are there good reasons to DC? Yes. Is there reasonable disagreement about what counts as a good reason? Sure. At the end of the day, can you compel someone to play a game if they feel they have no incentive to do it? Nope.
Given the DC penalty, I'm surprised that, at least according to the devs, there hasn't been a discernible increase in hook suicides. I'm wondering if people have found that to be true in their experience? I feel like hook suicides have skyrocketed.
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I think they addressed this in the last dev stream. It was annoying because what's her name shrugged her shoulders with a stupid look on her face as if to convey the idea that's there nothing to be done about it. That's true, but I don't think the devs should be so casual about a broad tendency toward lame behavior in the player base that derives from the central dynamic of the game. It's like conceding that the game isn't designed for players to have fun, which ignores the fact that player behavior is shaped almost entirely by the rules and limits of the game design. On the bright side, one of the dudes at least said they're aware of the problem and its scope and they find it annoying too, so they might try to figure out how to change up the allocation of points so as to further discourage camping and tunneling. I hope they follow through with that. Please correct me if I'm misstating the devs' intentions as expressed in the live stream.
Incidentally I used to think that rank doesn't matter at all, but I have found that generally speaking red rank killers are far less likely to camp and tunnel. I now aspire to get to red ranks and stay there just because overall the quality of the gameplay is vastly better. I get my butt whooped most of the time because I'm definitely a potato, but it's actually a lot of fun to be chased and beaten by players who are better than you.
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I don't know what the answer is, but it's easy to sympathize. Or, just from a functional point of view, if survivors have no incentive for playing out a losing scenario, then they will sometimes choose to DC, in which case everyone loses in a sense. You can't compel someone to keep playing if they don't want to play, and that is often the effect of a camping/tunneling strategy. Not to mention it's boring and braindead. DbD inspires cynical, even misanthropic thoughts. The game makes available countless builds to fuel experimentation and innovation, but a majority of people - killers and survivors - choose to be boring, predictable, mediocre. The killer version of this is camping and tunneling. The fact that the game now relies on a penalty system to discourage people from quitting is symptomatic of the erosion of the social contract that we agree to when we play a match, especially with randoms. I suppose the DbD player base gets the game we deserve. Most people are boring, so the game rewards that kind of play style.
@TheeclumsyNinja said:
Borrow time should be given to all survivors without needing a perk.
As a solo q survivor (rank 6 currently) i find it incredibly unfair to be in a situation where you are the first one found and downed, and then the killer just tunnels you till your last hook. And i down pip because of something completely out of my control.
Not saying you need the full time the perk gives you but anything would be helpful. 10 seconds is good start time id say.
That would deter tunnelling as they would spend to much time in that chase and would give survivors a chance off the hook against bad killers.
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@underlord99 said:
Which killer do you think has more potential than people give them? For me i would have to say the Pig, she's fun to play and really strong with STBFL.
Let me know down below!
Totally agree. Pig is my favorite killer to play. Not just because her ambush attack is very effective for stealth attack and palette mind games once you get the hang of it, but just because I think she is a ton of fun to use. I know a lot of people don't like going up against] her because, it's true, Pig plays, especially inexperienced ones, use her traps as an instrument of extreme tunneling. That's too bad. I go out of my way not to tunnel anyone I have trapped unless they are brazenly incautious and basically expect me to go out of my way to avoid downing them. I think people would regard the Pig as a better killer if they got to know her abilities better.
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I don't know if it's Pinhead but I hope so cuz Hellraiser lore is awesome.
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Of course. I do try to get four stacks on BBQ because I'm still trying to level up some characters, but other than that, I couldn't care less if all or none of the survivors escape. I play Pig a lot, and anyone who boops the snoot gets a free pass with me.
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Lobby wait times. Of course. There are other serious issues affecting gameplay, but none of those issues stop many people from playing. There is exactly one reason why so many people stop playing DbD or play it far less than they otherwise would: It takes too long to get into a match.
Fix this problem above all else. I know that it's related to matchmaking problems, but I don't think matchmaking could be much worse than it is now, so I'd throw everything into the effort to get matches started faster.
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About so many issues in this game due to its asymmetric nature, it's hard to generalize across populations and trials. When I play killer:
a) 20% of trials seem to go too quickly due to an initial gen rush. By "too quickly" I only mean that the full dynamic potential of the trial doesn't get a chance to unfold, so it's kind of a meh experience for everyone involved. Note that, in some of these trials, I still get 2+ kills. It has little to do with a lack of "balance" between survivors and killers with regard to outcome.
b) 20% of trials are cut short due to a DC or some other kind of bad behavior, so it's hard to judge gen speeds in these cases.
c) 60% of trials work out just fine. In these cases, I may get 4 kills or 0 kills. Fun and solid gameplay all-around regardless of outcome.
I guess I'd conclude that gen speeds are fine. If they get done too fast, it's usually because I'm not using Whispers and I make dumb decisions early on about where to look for survivors or whether to pursue a chase I shouldn't.
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I am rank 13 killer. Almost always, I am matched against SWFs at red or purple ranks. I'm happy if I get 4 stacks on BBQ. Usually I get 0 or 1 kills. I probably average between 1 and 2 kills because I do perform better in the occasional matches with survivors of comparable rank.
So many questions about this game, like the new Ruin change or anything based on a principle of "balance" between killers and survivors, are betrayed by false assumptions. I really like the guiding question of this thread. It made me realize how infrequently I encounter "players of equal skill" because the matchmaking system is so terribly broken.
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@HYthinger said:
Well maybe it wasnt ruins fault that survivors suck. maybe its just the bad rank system giving every survivor a participation award and giving everyone rank 1. And than this kinda stuff happens....
And the best thing about it??? i got deranked for them rather disconecting than losing to a player playing better than them (both dc'd after i downed em once in about 20 seconds).
You know why they are so entitled ? Because they know that they shouldnt go down that fast against a m1 killer. But i guess u can just dc if you dont have skill lol.
Insted of thinking about why 80% of red ranks use ruin or ds. how about thinking about why clearly bad / new players are in red ranks. So many times when i play killer i see some claudette urban evasion behind a tree while i chase here team mate. And after the match i get blamed for being toxic and not nice even tough they shuld blame ther team mates for playing like rank 15s on rank 1.
tl;dr pls finaly rework the rank system. im sick of playing against or with potatoes that just dc when the match doesnt run the way they want. It also rly sucks for the 2 survivors that didnt dc because they probably had a 10 minute q just for a 1 minute game.
Thank you for saying this. I fully agree from the opposite perspective. I am a rank 13 killer but I get matched against red and purple SWFs over and over again. You're right, a lot of them are potatoes, but your argument applies in the other direction too. At this point I've played 12 matches post Ruin change. The average survivor rank in those matches is between 6 and 7. The whole Ruin issue is a red herring. We can't really know what specific perk changes will do if the matchmaking system is so bad.
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@ZtarShot said:
I've got a build on Pig in mind, once I get all the perks.
Tampered Timer
Rules Set No.2
Ruin
Surveillance
Thrill
Thrilling Tremors
This'll be the ULTIMATE slowdown build. No gens. Punish for it ;)
I tried this exact build last night except I used Discordance instead of Tremors. More leg work to do, but once you get some RBTs on survivor heads, it's very manageable for Pig.
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It's hard to tell. I'm a rank 14 killer. I've played 7 killer matches on PS4 with new Ruin. The average rank of survivors I've encountered in these matches is about 6.5 and only in one match were the survivors on average close to my rank. There were two teams of red ranks with one purple exception.
From what I can tell having listened to commentaries of prominent DbD streamers discussing this issue is that everyone knows the Ruin question has little to do with Ruin and everything to do with a broken matchmaking system, not to mention a laundry list of long overdue fixes that make it impossible to comment without qualifications on whether or not Ruin sucks, matters, or whatever.
Incidentally I don't blame the survivor teams I've played against. Actually I feel bad for them, maybe a little embarrassed, for not giving them any serious competition. They probably got bored looping me into the ground over and over.
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I'm happy to get four stacks on BBQ and one kill. I too have given up Ruin. I play Pig mostly. Even if I play a good match and get some head traps out early, the gens are gonna keep popping.
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@Xerge said:
It might not matter now that everyone is being pushed to red ranks, I've had a few matches after the rank reset and I've felt like I'm playing against green rank survivors.
This is true. I'm rank 4 survivor but only cuz I play a lot. I'm actually quite terrible, and I'm fine with that, but I know it messes up matches for other players who actually belong in red ranks.
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I appreciate what this perk does, but I hate how some players use it. BT is not an excuse to make reckless saves. I find that survivors will sometimes DC if they feel like a teammate screws them over with an imprudent hook save. It can just encourage a killer to tunnel more. That said, for sure - it's an awesome perk.
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Deliverance can make for some very dramatic chases and escapes. All kinds of builds centered on that perk are possible.
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It's infinitely more complicated than other games I'm playing right now. I just mean the perk system, figuring out different builds, inferring what builds other people in the game are using, etc. All that probably becomes second nature to experienced players, but this game is actually mentally challenging in a way that is fun, not punishing.
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I haven't been playing that long so I make lots of mistakes. Survivor side, anything involving a chase, plus I'm way too passive because I'm afraid to get chased at all. Killer side, I swing and miss SO often. No, it's not the servers or internet connection, I'm just terrible.
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@BadMrFrosty said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/982149#Comment_982149
The time for being rational and using good arguments to get through to the developers is long past. This is not a method that works in the slightest, as has been proven by their out of touch approach to the game.
Hmm, that's too bad. I haven't been playing that long, a few months, so maybe I'm too optimistic. Fingers crossed.
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I suck at this game, though I've only been playing for a couple months. But, I agree with your argument. I don't think the game should be balanced to accommodate players like me. I think the dynamics should reflect balance at the highest levels. The rest of us should aspire to get better, not complain and blame the game. Appeasing low-skill and mid-skill players, even if they comprise 90% of the player base, is ultimately bad for everyone. It gives the wrong feedback and provides no incentive to improve.
There are many examples of how imbalances of all sorts persist in this game as a result. I am currently a RED RANK 4 player. And let me tell you - I have no ego invested in concealing this fact - THAT IS ABSURD. My skill level is so far below other red rank players I get matched with that I honestly sometimes feel really guilty for getting them killed or for boring a red rank killer. I am one of the players you're talking about in your post - I avoid being chased at all costs, because when I do get chased, I almost invariably get downed in 15 seconds or less. I know full well that is not how the game is supposed to be played. But that's how it goes usually when I face a red rank killer. The only exceptions are when my red rank teammates intervene in some way to save me.
The imbalanced matchmaking stresses me out. It's not as fun as it should be. I know the matchmaking system is another issue altogether, but I mention it as an example that proves the principle: Make balancing decisions based on how the game SHOULD be played by competent players, not on how the game is ACTUALLY played by mediocre players like me. I'm not proud of my red rank because I didn't earn it. I just play a lot. And I weigh my teammates down most of the time because of it.
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Agree totally.
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To be fair to the devs and to the game, maybe we should wait until data is available to make any firm judgments about the Ruin change.
A DbD streamer I watch often - he is well known, very smart, and an excellent player - did a review of the announcement and was convinced that the Ruin change would be such a detrimental blow to the game that the survival of the game itself would be at risk. Then I watched this same streamer and others play the PTB. All of them performed about as well as they usually do. It's just not possible to make definitive statements yet.
Not to mention that a final verdict should come after people have had the chance to experiment with new builds. Right now the obvious ideas are the ones being debated and tested, but the dynamics of the game are complicated enough that new possibilities haven't even been imagined yet.
There were several good reasons to change Ruin. There are also potential drawbacks. Let's try it out and see how it goes.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Any thoughts on this
I'm specificly curious if more people find the ruin+surveilance combo a bit overrated
Watched some live streams of popular, high-level killers trying this combination out. It sure worked well for them. For the rest of us, and especially people like who are really bad at playing killer, I'm not so sure. Eager to try it though.
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I spent a few hours today watching high level killers play the PTB. Some of them didn't use Ruin before, but the ones who did use it were able to make the change without much trouble. In fact they were already experimenting with new builds, some that included Ruin and other that didn't. But I agree with the original sentiment of this thread: The feeling of obligation and associated anxiety that Ruin inspires for so many killers and the various feelings it inspires for survivors, ranging from dread to boredom, are worth giving up if it means shifting the game toward creativity and experimentation with perk builds.
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I'm not convinced yet that the Ruin change will be terrible. It will certainly make the game more fun and encourage creativity and experimentation with perk builds on both sides. I thought at first that the Ruin change would make the perk too weak and perhaps obsolete, but some players have made persuasive arguments to the contrary, and I spent a few hours today watching them prove their cases in PTB on live streams. My best guess is that Ruin shouldn't be a hex perk anymore, but this is ultimately about outcomes, so we'll have to wait for the data. I'm kind of excited to see how things play out.
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@johnmwarner said:
Grats enjoy your games, I mean you'll have to wait longer because killers will quit or switch to survivor main but ok.
Longer wait times, much shorter matches. This could really hurt the game. I hope not.
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@toxic_clown said:
lol there will be less killers! have fun in that 20 min queue, chief!
Yes, this was my first thought as well. My brain didn't even try to process the likely consequences for gameplay. It just froze, much like survivor lobbies will be doing to a ridiculous degree. The good news is that my apartment will be very clean. It already takes so long to start a match that I usually use the time to wash the dishes or vacuum or something. Hell, I should probably get motivated to paint the walls in my living room. I'm excited!
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@TheKnot said:
I’m currently rank 2. Oddly enough never made it to rank 1 but this is how I went about it because I experience the same thing. I would typically die on my first hook because everyone else thinks “maybe someone else will get him. I’ll finish this gen” or be so immersed/scared to come get me
its been quite the struggle to deal with people not coming to get you on first hook so I run deliverance all the time partnered with iron will, spine chill, and adrenaline.
these perks just help me avoid the killer or be able to escape his LOS long enough to get healed or get objectives done. (And adrenaline because adrenaline) this honestly seems to be the only build that makes me not instantly lose when I’m in game. Other perks I’d consider running would be
Unbreakable (when the killer is slugging and your idiot teammates won’t come to get you up)
decisive - killers that like tunneling even though this perk is nerfed I still consider it useful for having a safe little window. Additionally most killers predict one has decisive so they’ll wait out the timer and that gives you time to Unbreakable back up to injured.
I often use the same build for the same reason. Deliverance is a must with randoms and Iron Will has gotten me out of more chases than I care to remember. Great combo when you can't assume anything about your teammates.
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I'm not sure there is a matchmaking system. I experience the same thing. I'm a rank 14 killer but most matches are against red ranks or purple ranks, presumably SWFs. Not sure why. Some of them behave respectfully, some doubt. I will say that I learn a lot playing against much better players, and I'm pleased if I can kill one of them. It does get frustrating to get beaten up over and over again, so I'd just advise you to play no more than 2 or 3 killer matches at a time. That way, you learn from better players, then you can switch back to survivor and figure out how to apply what you learned.
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I just started using it on pig. It actually makes a huge difference. Her standard terror radius of 32m is usually just a bit too large to approach survivors on a gen and get a clean hit with her Ambush attack before a chase can begin. Reducing the terror radius to 24m basically saves a lot of time in chases. Also, combined with the add on Amanda's Letter, which allows pig to see survivors at 12m, the Ambush attack is pretty much inescapable.
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Ebay comes to mind. You get to see information on sellers, like 93% positive feedback or whatever. Maybe players could have some statistics like that visible to others in a lobby so that you can decide whether or not to risk it with players who have poor stats.
The analogy works up to a point. I don't think a feedback stat would ideal. Instead, how about an absolute percentage of matches DC'd in the last month? Then you could avoid people in the habit of ruining matches for the rest of us. Plus it might actually discourage people from DCing because they'd have to wear that percentage on their name like a badge of dishonor.
Limiting the data set to a period of time might not be ideal since that could skew the perception depending on often you play. Maybe a percentage of the last 50 matches you at?
The key here is to shift responsibility for solving this problem from the devs to the players. A penalty system might help, but why not empower players to avoid abusers in the first place?
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Playing on PS4. So no penalty system. I've gone from rank 4 to 7 in about two days. The vast majority of matches are over before they start due to DCing survivors. The opposite has happened too, if survivors get a good start, the killer DCs. It's unplayable right now.
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@hockeygoalie78 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/928315#Comment_928315
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/928488#Comment_928488
Maybe I didn't phrase what I intended to say properly. I didn't mean that the killer should be punished or is at fault; I meant that the specific survivor should receive the same punishment as if they had simply disconnected (because killing themselves immediately still messes up the balance of the game and has the same negative effect as disconnecting in my opinion). Otherwise, survivors can bypass the disconnect punishment by killing themselves on the hook and the problem is likely to persist.
Yes for sure. I was shocked to see how often this is happening. On first hook, people attempt escape then don't struggle. Effectively worse than a DC, because it takes about 20 seconds, during which time other survivors might be risking a rescue, which may involve risk of detection, whereas a flat DC doesn't expose other survivors to immediate risk because they know immediately there's no one to save.
I had a good chance to get to the next color rank yesterday, which is a big deal for me because I suck. No exaggeration - I played four matches, and each time, at least one other survivor DC'd or quasi-DC'd, so I depipped four times. Frustrating.
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Yes I think it is bias. I started taking data on it and actually the mix appears random however "mix" might be defined.
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I've been playing for a little over a month and I've posted a few times. My observation is obvious but usually a good summary of many debates on the forums: Balancing issues vary tremendously between high and low ranks. It's seems generally true that the lower your survivor rank, the more the odds shift in your favor, especially when playing with friends. When you start playing, the killer just destroys you. But even one red rank survivor can carry a whole team against a mid-rank killer. That's why I'm really sympathetic to the devs regarding balancing issues. I don't think there's a way to get it right for the whole player base.
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One consistent thing I've noticed in forums is how different the experience of red ranks and lesser players tends to be on the same issues. I was playing SWF last night - we have been playing about a month now - and we were getting absolutely destroyed match after match.
Maybe balancing issues are so difficult or impossible for the devs to manage because there's no data set that's consistent enough across all ranks of the player base. I don't know. I do know that, on occasions when I'm playing with 2 other friends who suck as bad as I do but we're joined by a red rank survivor and killer, the advantage swings back to us. IE one good survivor is often enough to put the killer on his heels even if that survivor has to carry the rest of the team.
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Too bad this thread got hijacked. It started with a clear description of changes to a killer, which I really appreciated as someone who just started playing (and loving!) the game a few weeks ago, not only because it tells a lot about Legion, but because any pros/cons analysis like this helps newcomers like me to extrapolate and generalize to other aspects of gameplay.
I get now why fans of DbD are so addicted to this game. It's smart, it rewards being smart, and it punishes (or at least tries to punish) being stupid. "Stupid" here refers to my own stupid gameplay. I get slaughtered routinely, but never discouraged, because I know there's always a reason. What did I do wrong? Aside from poor execution of a loop or coming out of a locker too soon, what didn't I understand about the killer that got me killed? I eagerly await the end-game screen that reveals what perks the killer was using. Almost invariably it gives me an AHA! moment.
Like with Legion, for example: When I started playing, I was so proud of myself for using Dwight with Prove Thyself because, despite sucking at the game, I felt like it gave me a way to help the other survivors by working with them together on the same gens. For some reason I didn't yet understand, Legion kept showing up to spoil the party. I learned after that match what the Discordance perk does. It was actually a joyful revelation.
I know that's a facile example. My point is simply that DbD rests upon a unique density of argumentation that is really mind-blowing to newcomers but that experienced players might take for granted. That's why this thread is so fascinating to me. It focuses on an apparently radical change and attempts to sort out the consequences. Differences of opinion are to be expected, but I never would have comprehended the basis of disagreement without a clear description of what was the case, what changed, and how your behavior needs to change to be successful with this killer. So I hope that experienced players will continue to write posts like this, and I really, really hope that differences of opinion can be expressed respectfully so the discussion doesn't degenerate into aggressive rhetorical nonsense.
Edys, thanks for the post. I really appreciated it. Do more!
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Good post. This clarifies a lot to me.
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I'm a newcomer to DbD. I'm terrible. I still don't use NoED. It seems cheap to me.