DerpyPlayz
DerpyPlayz
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@Itooshie said:
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
IMAGINE saying the devs they cant tell you what is or is not cheating in their own game.
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
This is a fallacy.
Words are tools, and as such it depends. It is completely fair to question the considerations of cheating and what it is defined as.
The fact that some people here support this thread, and some don't are clear indications of this, so with this fact going over your head it is really quite ironic how you are calling people clowns.
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@Ecstasy said:
I mean, objectively, it's not cheating. As you said, it's not prohibited, so it's not really cheating by definition. The developers have classified it as acceptable & encourage those players and playstyle.
It does, however, clearly undermine the basic gameplay assumptions and conditions in ways that are materially significant still. Basically, yeah, it's pretty damn dense to pretend voice-communication doesn't fundamentally alter a game where you're normally can't even type a message to any other play saying that you need a rescue, stay on gen, trap right there, etc. or any of the potentially huge bits of information exchanged by players regularly in the most casual usage of voice-communication. Even those sorts of little things on their own attribute to the sort of mistakes and miscalculations that spiral out into major consequences for the survivor side.
You can't really eliminate all the chaos and confusion the game depends upon and say its the same game. It is actually very similar to someone using perma-wallhack software in that way. Neither are an instant win, but its unbalanced information that dramatically alters their chances beyond what they should be and eliminates all the normal errors that would constitute normal gameplay.
Really it's hard to ignore how VC has as much impact as most forms of cheating in most other arenas. It's all very much a steroids equivalent. They're forms of performance enhancement that render teams--of any given skill or starting level--that much better than they would be without it. Meanwhile the significance of that boost is largely a function of their own starting skill and effectiveness at utilizing the boost to its full capacity. It can basically be roid-raging "break this game in half!" boosting, or it can be "but i just need that littttttttttttle edge!" boosting, and everything in-between... which just calls itself the latter anyhow regardless of the edge. (This being the process of how people convince themselves cheating is acceptable in any iteration).
Again though, that's all allowed and okay here. Unlike steroids or hacks.
So what do you do about that contradiction?
My clarified definition is "de-facto cheating", because, well, that's what you're left with. It's not cheating so far as the rules are concerned (that being differentiated as "de jure cheating"), however it's also something hard to look at--as a logical, objective person who understands the game mechanics--and end up concluding that the average match allowing VC would be roughly similar to that exact same match if it occurred without VC. There's an indisputable--and rather massive--edge fundamentally altering the sort of game and techniques you're up against.
The phrasing "de-facto cheating" is a direct acknowledgement that it is indeed allowed, but a reminder that perhaps it shouldn't be--or at least that it should be incorporated and balanced. It's an acknowledgement of being within the rules, while also noting the function parallel steroids in baseball or wall-hacks in counter-strike.
To propose another type of "de-facto cheating" example: I suppose it's along the lines of recognizing how it would still be still cheating in-effect regardless of whether Uno added some written rule into the game where as long as someone is getting up to pee (and only pee, not grab a beer or anything) and your name is Dan, then you can look at the other player's cards. Its like... okay, yeah official rule... but c'mon. That's not--you just can't say that's the same damn game. It doesn't vibe with its own essence and expression.
The idea is similar here, except--instead of Dan bribing Uno Von Unomaker to add that rule--Dan is a bunch of streamers and cosmetic purchasers who also demand the capability of playing with friends (+the massive booster doing that with voice-coms adds). Thus, BHVR has their pupils turn into a bunch of spinning $$$ signs start in the style of a cartoon character while their tongues roll onto the ground like an unfurling carpet and they mutter "sure sure anything you betcha sure," and thus balance is born.
If you just defined what cheating is then this would be alot easier and alot shorter.
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@TTV_WAWAbyWibWib said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2118775#Comment_2118775
I think both can be true. It's cheating but I am also for it because the game is better balanced that way and there is no way to enforce otherwise.
Actually it is worse for balance or better depending on the survivors really.
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@SnowMiser said:
I've noticed that almost every survivor player uses external tools to gain unfair competitive advantages. For example, Discord, TeamSpeak, console voice chats, etc. There is no voice chat in Dead by Daylight, which means that these tools are objectively cheating. Every survivor who uses them needs to be banned, permanently.
Inb4 "buh muh devs said-" nothing the devs say matters. Cheating is not defined by what Almo or some other clown says. Cheating is defined by what is possible in the unmodified game.
Well, depends on what you define as cheating.
I would actually argue in your favor as cheating would be defined as "Any method or exploit in a game or out of a game, that offers a unfair advantage that is not directly intended nor supported by normal gameplay" imo.
However, what could the devs do really? I mean, as a counter argument to this what do you think the developers would do? If the developers employed something to stop chat in discord, and even then if it did stop discord from allowing you to talk then what about if you are talking with people in discord and playing different games? Would you just no longer be able to talk until you stop playing DBD and if so that would be really annoying.
One last counter argument is, in some sense the devs do actually support it as they have they're own DBD Discord server, and have a slot for a SWF in the Voice Chat section.
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@KateMain86 said:
Nothing needs to happen to keys. Keys are conditional. The old mori was too powerful and resulted in so many matches ending very soon. The tunneling I saw with old moris was insane. If you got hooked and someone pulled you off well you were probably going to get tunneled down to get the mori. Now instead of moris denying the 2nd and even 3rd hook they now only deny the 3rd hook in which you don't get the chance for someone to pallet or flashlight save you from your death hook. This was absolutely necessary in my opinion. Keys still require generators to be done to be able to be used unless you're the last survivor and the hatch got closed. Because door spawns can so often be in the killer's favor and the fact it takes so long to open them then you're probably going to get found before you escape unless you have a key as a backup plan. You also need to consider the fact that killers can still see the hatch when it spawns and because they can travel the map faster than you the chances of them finding it before you do is higher. If you don't have a key then you're probably not escaping because the killer will go straight to the hatch after the 3rd survivor dies then go door to door until the timer runs out or they find you. Also keep in mind that a lot of killers look at keys as a big threat to them so if they see you with one they will try to eliminate you as fast as possible. Its always a big risk playing a key.
Already refuted this argument.
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@TTV_WAWAbyWibWib said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/240533/keys-still
Keys suck, you can try to take franklins so they have to drop it or risk you making them drop it that it despawns and you can try to slug really hard so that hatch never spawns. Really good teams can really push you and sometimes get the hatch on the board but against 99.9% of lobbies if you are doing everything else right keys should never get their chance to shine.
Already refuted this argument.
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@Superyoshiegg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2115084#Comment_2115084
That's Blue Umbrella, a PMC. Not the Umbrella Corporation, pharmaceutical giant.
They're two different companies with no relation to each other besides the name.
The Umbrella Corporation went bankrupt and defunct sometime between RE3 and RE4.
The pendant in the reveal is specifically the logo for the Umbrella Corporation, not Blue Umbrella.
I like the word Umbrella.
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@QwQw said:
Personally my ideal RE chapter would be:
- Jill and Chris as survivors
- Raccoon City Police Department as the map.
- Jack Baker as the killer.
Overall though I'm very hyped regardless of what we get.
Ohh.
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@Superyoshiegg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2114838#Comment_2114838
The trailer had the Umbrella Corporation pendant in it. Umbrella hasn't been relevant to the series since Resident Evil 3 (1999), so it would be pretty weird to include that if the Chapter is themed after the more recent titles.
That was my thoughts.
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@ItzZane_ said:
I want leon or chris being the survivor of the chapter, Why? because we NEED a male survivor
Leon or Claire I would imagine would come?
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@Mister_xD said:
im excited for it.
honestly, im hoping its gonna be another one of those chapters that "break the rules" like the Stranger Things chapter.
maybe this time with more than one Killer - they do have plenty of characters to choose from after all! (my biggest hope is gonna be Mr.X alias the Tyrant)
I think thats more likely then nemesis, who knows. Maybe they throw a april fools and the killer is just a common zombie. XD
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@Lx_malice said:
My thoughts?
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! ######### YEAH!!
Lmao.
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@knockoutsider said:
as i said before i'm really happy with it but some people think its RE7/8 Related, and it's indeed a possibility, if it's the case the chapter will be just meh for me as i'm not really into the new games. still cool tho
Why would people think it is only related to those RE games? Is there something I missed?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2113808#Comment_2113808
I appreciate it and have been enjoying the back and forth too :)
Franklin's
You did say that bringing Franklin's was "wasting a perk slot", so I'm not sure how that's a strawman. The perk clearly does offer utility, so the only argument that remains is that Franklin's is a waste because it's not as good as something else you could be using instead. If that doesn't imply that it's a waste because Franklin's is non-meta and I'm just missing another possible argument, I'd appreciate clarification.
Rarity
When looking at survivor items, which is of course where keys fall in, rarity does track very well with the strength of an item or add-on. The best medkit is purple (highest rarity for medkits). The best all-purpose toolbox is green (second-highest rarity for toolboxes), but both purple medkits are also best at specific things (repair speed boost, sabo). The best flashlight is purple (highest rarity for flashlights). The best map is pink (highest rarity for maps). The best key is pink (highest rarity for keys). The best Medkit add-on is probably pink (highest), although green is arguable depending on what you're going for. The best toolbox add-on is pink (highest). The best key add-ons are all purple (highest). The best flashlight add-on is green (third highest), but this is just a relic of quick-blind add-ons having that functionality removed. Pink used to be strongest. The best map add-on is probably purple (highest), although I think this one is more debatable.
So yes, items generally do get better and better as rarity increases. Same goes for add-ons. This is the logic I'm using to say that rare items, like keys, should not be useless. If you're going to make keys mediocre, on the level of your average brown item for example, just drop their rarity down to match. If you're going to make keys actually terrible, just remove them from the game entirely. At their current rarities, though, keys should be strong like all of the other items in the game with similar rarities. They don't need to open the hatch to be strong, but they should be strong nonetheless.
Kill rate = fallacious? Survivors OP?
This argument isn't fallacious; I think I'm just arguing something different than you expect. Kill rate is a direct reflection of what happens in the real world. It includes everything; the farming killers, the hook suicides, the killers who give hatch, the sandbagging Neas, etc. If killers were not finding success at red rank, that means that they're probably not as good as other red rank killers, and vice versa. DBD has historically been killer-sided at red rank, as evidenced by ballooning kill rates, but this only tells us about game balance for public matches in the existing rank-based matchmaking system. It doesn't say anything about the balance in the highest skill matches. It only shows balance at a given rank, and rank is probably only loosely correlated with actual skill.
With a working and mature MMR system, we should finally be able to see how high-skill matches go on the aggregate. To this point the devs have not released any data on this, though, so no matter how frequently people assert this on the forum it's impossible to say if survivors are overperforming in high-skill matches. Until the devs release more data, then, I'm going to need to see a compelling "survivors OP" argument made before I accept it.
You brought up tournaments as evidence, but there are tons of problems with this. Tournaments often ban loadout items, characters/skins, maps, and even play styles (e.g. slugging, camping, repairing while injured). Sometimes loadouts are entirely or partially randomized, which isn't necessarily going to be an equal disadvantage for both sides. Tournaments define specific win conditions that don't necessarily match what players are typically playing for in public matches and that will cause players to make very different decisions in game. A killer trying to pip is going to play differently than a killer who is trying to max their BPs, or get as many sacrifices as possible, for example. In public matches you're of course going to have a whole variety of self-defined objectives and win conditions which will all in turn influence play styles in ways you wouldn't see in a tournament. Tournaments also don't necessarily match up similarly-skilled players against each other. Without MMR, who's to say if a survivor squad performed well because they're better players, or if they performed well because the game itself is fundamentally unbalanced for high-skill players? The game doesn't have enough of a competitive scene to have good confidence that tournaments are drawing the best players on both sides. All in all, this isn't going to tell us a whole lot about overall game balance.
With that said, this comment from zarr calls into question whether kill rate is really that poor in tournaments in the first place. Food for thought.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1890692#Comment_1890692
I was replying to this and accidently deleted everything I said, so I will just summarize.
Reread my previous 3 replies because you have restated stuff that I already argued, rarities is still pointless because of the reasons in those replies, and I was using tournaments as a example not as evidence of something we can look to for the potential of how strong survivors can be.
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@MojoTheFabulous said:
It's pretty exciting. I'm personally a sucker for crossovers and i've really enjoyed the Resident Evil games i've played so this is dope.
Interesting.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2110704#Comment_2110704
I am basing this off of every other loadout item in the game. High-rarity offerings are things like Putrid/Petrified Oaks, Salty Lips, Shiny Coins, and White/Black Wards. Are these on par with things like Engineers/Commodious Toolboxes, Ranger Medkits, Utility Flashlights, and Rainbow Maps? Absolutely not. Wards have no in-match impact, Shiny Coins usually hurt you (more time doing chests is less time on gens), Oaks are very weak, and Lips are useless unless you're doing some sort of luck stack Up the Ante / Slippery Meat meme build. Meanwhile all of the items I mentioned are quite strong and generally useful. Perks are a different strength tier as well, especially for killer. Strong killer perks are going to give way more value than strong add-ons of the same rarity.
Keys will no longer be unfair if you change them. Intentionally nerfing them into irrelevance with the justification that their prior state was broken makes no sense.
I typically only get like 3 or 4 purple or pink keys in bloodwebs when leveling a survivor to 50. You're only going to be able to stockpile them if you're either explicitly farming for them or if you never use them and are continuing to buy out bloodwebs well after hitting level 50. Meanwhile with killers like Huntress you'll get like 10 ebonies on the way to level 50 easily, and some greens to boot. Killers have fewer total ultra rares, so Ebonies are substantially more common than Skeleton Keys.
If survivors' base kit is strong enough to need nerfs across the board, the right way to do that is not to nerf keys into the ground. Their items should all be in the same ballpark of viability or some will just not be used and overall game balance will hardly change; if keys are going to be in the game, they should be roughly on par with other items in terms of strength. The devs should instead be focusing on things like base gen regression speeds, or map sizes, or pallet density that will directly tie back to balance for all matches independent of build.
I am basing this off of every other loadout item in the game. High-rarity offerings are things like Putrid/Petrified Oaks, Salty Lips, Shiny Coins, and White/Black Wards. Are these on par with things like Engineers/Commodious Toolboxes, Ranger Medkits, Utility Flashlights, and Rainbow Maps? Absolutely not. Wards have no in-match impact, Shiny Coins usually hurt you (more time doing chests is less time on gens), Oaks are very weak, and Lips are useless unless you're doing some sort of luck stack Up the Ante / Slippery Meat meme build. Meanwhile all of the items I mentioned are quite strong and generally useful. Perks are a different strength tier as well, especially for killer. Strong killer perks are going to give way more value than strong add-ons of the same rarity.Then that is your flaw, some addons for example are iri but are not nearly as good as other iri addons, modern day mori is terrible but is iri, ect. Rarity doesn't mean anything in DBD, and this is one of the weakest point I have ever heard.
Keys will no longer be unfair if you change them. Intentionally nerfing them into irrelevance with the justification that their prior state was broken makes no sense.Nerfing or changing them in such a way that are equal to modern day moris in power is completely fair.
I typically only get like 3 or 4 purple or pink keys in bloodwebs when leveling a survivor to 50. You're only going to be able to stockpile them if you're either explicitly farming for them or if you never use them and are continuing to buy out bloodwebs well after hitting level 50. Meanwhile with killers like Huntress you'll get like 10 ebonies on the way to level 50 easily, and some greens to boot. Killers have fewer total ultra rares, so Ebonies are substantially more common than Skeleton Keys.Not even, I have a bunch on my old account. You just start to find them and whatnot. You get a good amount after a while.
If survivors' base kit is strong enough to need nerfs across the board, the right way to do that is not to nerf keys into the ground.I don't know how we would even nerf it, and I am not convinced it needs a nerf really. This would require a game overhaul, so I will not get into this topic.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2110789#Comment_2110789
...But you are getting utility out of the perk. You are removing items from the game and likely wasting survivor time as they backtrack for their items. Just because a perk is not meta doesn't make it a wasted slot. If you only see one item in the lobby or you feel the utility is too low to justify over a meta perk, then don't run Franklin's. You can counter the key in another way.
When I talk about keys' rarity, I am not talking about their drop rate. I am talking about their literal rarity in the game, e.g. ultra rare (pink), very rare (purple).
This "survivor base kit is strong enough" argument is not supported by the available data. I am referencing the 68% kill rate at red rank not because rank determines skill, but because that kill rate reflects that actual experience of players. If you are a average red rank survivor, you can expect to be sacrificed in 68% of your matches. If you're in a four-man SWF with all above average players, will you do better than average? Yup, you should, especially with rank-based matchmaking. Still, though, the average is 68%. If you're not contributing many deaths to that number, other squads are contributing disproportionately many. For as long as rank-based matchmaking was live, then, killers were feasting at red rank, all while complaining about survivors being OP.
Now that MMR is live and starting to mature, though, it's possible that these statistics will start to change. Maybe at the highest skill ratings we'll see survivors survive at a much higher rate than 32%. If killers are unable to hang, the devs will certainly adjust balance. With that said, though, people have been complaining about "survivors OP" for years in an environment in which ~70% of survivors at red rank were not surviving the trial. If those unicorn unbeatable SWFs exist, then, there are clearly very few of them. Most people have just latched onto this refrain because streamer X said so, or because it's easier to blame game balance than to accept that you're not a very good killer and need to work on your game a bit.
Ignoring all of the reasons that tournament play does not well represent public matches, if a perfect killer faces perfect survivors and two survivors will typically escape, is that not extremely balanced? Do you feel three survivors should be sacrificed for it to be fair?
...But you are getting utility out of the perk. You are removing items from the game and likely wasting survivor time as they backtrack for their items. Just because a perk is not meta doesn't make it a wasted slot. If you only see one item in the lobby or you feel the utility is too low to justify over a meta perk, then don't run Franklin's. You can counter the key in another way.I just want to say something, I appreciate talking to you more then most others because although you disagree you at least try to give reasons. Anyway, now that thats out of the way, lets do this.
Again, read what I said before, I don't feel like restating a entire paragraph, chase pays the bills, not utility. Unless you are talking about a utility bill, but I am getting off topic. Point is, killers need chase to down survivors as utility mostly is just for stuff outside of chase and therefore it is best done with other perks like BBQ, Discordance, ect.
As for the new stuff you said, I never claimed that a perk not being a meta perk makes it a wasted slot, this is a strawman. Also, Franklins with all survivors having items or no survivors having items is a wasted perk slot unless you hit key users at optimum times as said before. Again please read above reply's and you will have my reasons for all of this.
When I talk about keys' rarity, I am not talking about their drop rate. I am talking about their literal rarity in the game, e.g. ultra rare (pink), very rare (purple).I am talking about how often you find them in general. We can go over that too, actually I already have, again, rarity in Dead By Daylight does not correlate to something being great.
(Sidenote, while I understand I can't use this as a counter argument, I do think it should be noted that while it is a consumer action, you can mod your perk and whatnot to look like whatever you find. The reason I think this is notable to bring up is because of the fact that most people do this.)
This "survivor base kit is strong enough" argument is not supported by the available data. I am referencing the 68% kill rate at red rank not because rank determines skill, but because that kill rate reflects that actual experience of players. If you are a average red rank survivor, you can expect to be sacrificed in 68% of your matches. If you're in a four-man SWF with all above average players, will you do better than average? Yup, you should, especially with rank-based matchmaking. Still, though, the average is 68%. If you're not contributing many deaths to that number, other squads are contributing disproportionately many. For as long as rank-based matchmaking was live, then, killers were feasting at red rank, all while complaining about survivors being OP.I have already replied to this point, please scroll up and stop using a OOO argument as it is fallacious.
Now that MMR is live and starting to mature, though, it's possible that these statistics will start to change. Maybe at the highest skill ratings we'll see survivors survive at a much higher rate than 32%. If killers are unable to hang, the devs will certainly adjust balance. With that said, though, people have been complaining about "survivors OP" for years in an environment in which ~70% of survivors at red rank were not surviving the trial. If those unicorn unbeatable SWFs exist, then, there are clearly very few of them. Most people have just latched onto this refrain because streamer X said so, or because it's easier to blame game balance than to accept that you're not a very good killer and need to work on your game a bit.Because survivors just objectively are overpowered, lets look at a theoretical survivor loadout that you could perform in a game. At base, all survivors have a potential for 12 hooks, or 8 lives at base, plus a additional life with a self heal med-kit in modern day (+1), Plus the new buff to borrowed time making it a new top tier meta perk that you can get repeated lives out of really (+?), plus unbreakable (+1), plus all clutch perks like adrenaline, sprint burst, ect (+1), plus the ability to complete gens in literal minutes at at base and optimal play, plus the fact that for a survivor to even go down they have to make a mistake, plus the fact they control the game and they can speed it up or slow it down, they can choose the map, ect. This list goes on however it is common for survivors to have about 3-2 lives when they know what they are doing, so you have to win about 10 chases, and not allow gens that can be completed quickly to go off.
If this is not a advantage I don't know what is. Most survivors I see who exploits these mechanics don't say that it is a issue because they want to be overpowered as much as possible or are too bias to realize it.
Ignoring all of the reasons that tournament play does not well represent public matches, if a perfect killer faces perfect survivors and two survivors will typically escape, is that not extremely balanced? Do you feel three survivors should be sacrificed for it to be fair?Yes actually if not all, think about what we are talking about, we are talking about perfect play. The killer is suppose to be able to make up for the fact that he is a killer, more so though the reasons for this is because of the fact that these killers has said time and time again, they never go for the 3k because of the pressure survivors have, and they never even think about 4k because of the optimization the survivors proved because well its a tournament.
The tactics shown are clear issues with stuff faced in the main game, I think the best thing that should be done is a game rework to some degree rather then these bandage patch's, however clearly Behavior would have to change EVERYTHING and that would be a major issue and then the excuse they gave for not changing keys would be valid.
This is why this is pointless to talk about the balance, just don't try to leverage it if you are going to make a argument because its a objective fact that survivors are stronger then killer.
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@ItzPixelYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2110822#Comment_2110822
Weird because I don't have a issue with keys at devotion lvl 9...crazy the amount of Rank 1 Killers running Noed. Good Killers run the game on 3 perks can get 1 or 2 kills, all gens get done and can finish the job with Noed. Especially a lot of the Nurse players I encounter. Stop assuming that the only issue with Noed is with the newer playerbase when really good Killers actually can abuse it's power.
I wasn't correlating pips with noed. It's a Killers playstyle sometime to go for one person all game, leaving the rest to get gens done and there isn't enough points for to even safety pip doing gens sometimes.
I like that you just say search for the totem when you play some maps like midwich where you can take 2 hook states to find the totem with the amount of possible spawns if people aren't on coms or actively looking for it.
Survivors may win if one killer is chasing 1 or 2 people but as i say the other 2 will find it difficult to get any points or good emblems.
The amount of times i've ran a bad killer 4/5 gens and i get hit with noed at the end of it is ridiculous and it's ignorant to think that it's not an issue in the game...
Why is everyone making a argument from authority today? Quickly state some points as you have poisoned the well.
- Devotion has nothing to do with anything in this argument at all, this is just a fallacious appeal to authority that has no effect on me at all.
- Rank has nothing to do with NOED, nor what killers use, nor is it a good thing to use for gauging the skill of the player you are playing.
Ok now that that's cleared up, lets talk about your points (terrible ones, but points none the less) It seems you have repeated yourself so this time I will organize my thoughts in a format reply to your points.
Good Killers run the game on 3 perks can get 1 or 2 kills, all gens get done and can finish the job with Noed.It was after you said this that I think you are trolling, but I will still continue anyway since I have nothing better to do rn.
Especially a lot of the Nurse players I encounter. Stop assuming that the only issue with Noed is with the newer playerbase when really good Killers actually can abuse it's power.Nurses would never use NOED, it doesn't even make sense, although tbh nurse doesn't really need any of her perks so I suppose its not too insane to think someone might if they were great. This totally conflicts however, IF they were a great nurse they wouldn't make it to end game as Nurse is one of the only killers (if not) that actually disrupts survivors so much that it makes it hell for them due to the ability to outright ignore all defenses they have and even walls, there is no stopping a great nurse. Stop pulling stuff out of your butt.
I wasn't correlating pips with noed. It's a Killers playstyle sometime to go for one person all game, leaving the rest to get gens done and there isn't enough points for to even safety pip doing gens sometimes.Correct, this has nothing to do with NOED, it is because of the emblem system. There are many ways to replicate this as said before. One of those ways is having someone do chase and you avoiding or not being able to be chased and if you didn't complete enough gens or help enough survivors you will depip.
I like that you just say search for the totem when you play some maps like midwich where you can take 2 hook states to find the totem with the amount of possible spawns if people aren't on coms or actively looking for it.Yhea, because search for them and you find it. Two health states is a great amount of time, I was under the assumption you meant one, at least there is a excuse if you can't find it in one health state.
If you really have to look up strats on how to effectively find totems, they do spawn in the same areas, its not completely random. You are complaining about your lack of optimization, yet you wonder why a inferior perk like NOED is crippling you. In any case, this was not the only counter play to this that I listed.
Survivors may win if one killer is chasing 1 or 2 people but as i say the other 2 will find it difficult to get any points or good emblems.Not my problem, I don't control the emblem system however to implicate that NOED has anything to do with this is silly.
The amount of times i've ran a bad killer 4/5 gens and i get hit with noed at the end of it is ridiculous and it's ignorant to think that it's not an issue in the gameIts not ignorant, its ignorant and arrogant believing a bad killer with a bad perk is more of a issue then the simple fact you don't want to understand nor employ basic tactics vs these perks that are a issue for you, so then you complain to everyone else, and finally when you meet someone who seems to be more experienced then you, you ignore all of the reason that they claim the perk is not that good, and instead focus on one in particular. Then you go on to be fallacious and just brush aside major ones.
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@ItzPixelYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/240533/keys-still
annoying being in a game and after the killer has chased the same 1 or 2 people all game and not worry about gen pressure they down someone with noed then end up with more kills because people try and save while they camp as there is about 80 different totem spots to check on a map, crazy. Or the other survivors can just choose to leave and get no points from letting the others die and they earn a depip :)
This is a argument a newer player would make. It is widely agreed upon that NOED, while annoying is not viable at all:
- Can't be used with other Hex's at all (Effectively) due to the then inspiration a survivor would have to do a Hex Totem
- Only activates during the end of the game, meaning for 5/6 of the match the killer has a max of 3 perks
- Can be entirely countered before it even activates if all totems are done
- If the killer only chased one player or two players to end game it is very likely that survivors will win, regardless of NOED
- Pips have nothing to do with NOED, it is the emblem system you are talking about as this can be replicated in many a different way not exclusively related to NOED at all
- Can be played through, if you are at a strong loop, killer still is forced to wait until you make a mistake, so you can potential just play safe so you don't make mistakes, dropping pallets left and right until teammates open exit gates and run away
- If on hook, assuming the killer doesn't have amazing NOED spawn near the hook, you can just search for it if he face/proxy camps, if he goes away (this would be the killers mistake really) then you can just unhook and escape really as it is only the first hit that throws Survivors off.
- This is even more true for basement, as the killer basically has to proxy/basement camp and they spawn away from totem spawn areas normally, and typically at the dead center or edges of the map
- If majority of survivors are alive, if the survivors are risky they can outright counter it with common perks such as Unbreakable, Borrowed Time (considering its recent buff ignoring terror radius), ect as all of these perks are second life perks and therefore do not allow NOED to instantly down you.
I could go on most likely, but I think this is good for now. Truefully, NOED is harmful to the killer more then the survivor, just new survivors don't realize it as they typically don't understand how the mechanics of the game work, and therefore don't have the proper mindset going into a game to be able to understand chase, yet alone this perk and strats around it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2106964#Comment_2106964
It's certainly not just burning a perk slot, given that it does provide utility, but you don't need to run Franklin's to counter keys. That is just one of a handful of solid counters. Not only did I not ignore the other counters, but I listed some of them in my earlier post.
Keys are a high-rarity item. They need to be strong because of their slot and rarity, on par with things like Ranger Medkits, Commodious Toolboxes, and Utility Flashlights. I don't care how they're strong. They could drop a banana peel for the killer to slip on for all I care.
If survivors are overperforming, nerf them. 68% kill rate at red ranks says otherwise, but once MMR settles in there could certainly be survivor-sided skill ranges. At any rate, the correct answer is not to make specifically keys terrible. Survivors will just use toolboxes and medkits instead and this will end up doing very little for balance, while simultaneously cluttering up bloodwebs with expensive and useless items.
it certainly is, you are wasting a perk slot really. Utility is not what makes a killer strong or even feasible, its they're chase potential and how quickly they can down players. This is why if you pay attention to the killer meta/good perks most of them all focus around slowing the game down in some capacity, be it directly via generators (Hex:Ruin), or something more simple like longer actions for survivors (Sloppy Butcher).
Again, if we assume that you got max use out of a perk like Franklins, the base kit is still strong enough to play without an item for survivors, even if you used it if you hit anyone but a key holder at optimum times, then its possible the item has already been used and they dropped something they don't even care about (assuming they did care about the item they dropped in the first place).
Again, keys are at best uncommon. That idea while I understand is a joke to explain, would actually like be still very strong second to a key, imagine if you could do that and then the killer gets stunned saving you both a pallet drop or/and a hit
Longer chases is still better then X amount of survivors who go out of they're way to be mean, or happen to want to use keys as a crutch to escape. Rank doesn't even matter, it just defines play time in reality as even the devs have acknowledged. I would argue that this is a similar argument to the (prepatch) OOO argument as well, using statistics in a manipulative manner to ignore the main issue, even when there is no direct causation evidential to what you just said. correlation is not causation.
Survivors who understand the game well, and know what to do, do over perform. If you were to take a perfect killer, vs perfect survivors, 2 survivors will typically escape as seen in tournaments.
Now about a nerf idea to survivors, I am not even going in that territory, I would think they could just add X or XX amount of time in seconds to gens to help with that, but that is a different conversation.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2106968#Comment_2106968
'Freely'
I don't know if the definition of 'free' changed over the past few months, but when you say 'free', I don't think of "All five gens done OR four gens done and one teammate dead OR three gens done and 2 teammates dead OR all your teammates dead, and then you need to make it to the hatch before the much faster moving killer finds it."
If keys were 'free wins', wouldn't people be bringing them constantly for the guaranteed 4-man escape?
Or is it possible that almost all keys fail to even secure one escape?
Totally depends on the survivors you face, if they fit into Try harder, Optimization Freak, Bully Squad, ect then yes most certainly you will see a key.
If they are Great/Confident Players, The usual type who purposely ignores items that give unfair advantages, ect, then No you most likely won't.
If they are a SWF, Casual, ect, then maybe who knows.
It just depends on the motives really.
I would diffidently consider two survivors escaping after 3 gens are done free, as 99% of the time that will happen. You are talking about a game, where it is possible to get all 5 gens done in minutes at max optimal play. This is not too insane to think that for 6 hooks, and 6 chases (assuming you are doing meh) you can consistently get 3 gens done and nullify all the work the killer put into those kills.
Which is why as said previously as well, when the killer gains traction people typically use these keys. If you can't meet that requirement, then that's a major issue for you, the randoms, or/and the SWF you are with.
By your questions same logic, if these keys are so terrible however then why not rework them into a position where survivors can't escape purely based on luck (which your question implicates) and actually have to use them in a skillful manner?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2106942#Comment_2106942
Items are not meant to be weak and offerings are, as evidenced by every other item and offering in the game. I get that you don't like keys. Doesn't mean they should be irrelevant given their slot and rarity.
Have no clue what you are basing this information, as far as I know, every item in the game, offering, perk and items/addons should be strong in a balanced sense.
Its silly to assume that they should not be at least feasible.
In any case, I would still argue that because the base kit for survivors can be enough to win without, items, perks and offering that this still shouldn't be the case even if that is so.
The reasons as said previously that you keep ignoring why these specific items should be pretty irrelevant or only fill a niche is because they are objectively unfair (both moris, and keys), they give either side they're objective. Keys allow survivors to escape ignoring normal gen/progression mechanics, and prepatch moris allowed killer to kill outright ignoring hook mechanics mostly. It is for this reason that they should be, also they are still not rare.
Again, if they are common enough for you to stalk pile them if you don't use them, they aren't really that rare, at best uncommon.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2102409#Comment_2102409
Keys are only useful in a minority of matches as is, though. Using one has never been anything close to a guarantee.
I'm fine with limiting their usefulness by changing when the hatch spawns, like I said, but if their hatch-opening abilities are only helpful in rare cases they need to become more generally useful to justify their rarity and loadout slot.
No they aren't, even if I give you the point, the simple possibility of multiple survivors escaping due to an item should not be allowed for the same reasons the simple possibility of you vsing a killer who can outright kill on first hook (mori pre patch)
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@SunderMun said:
I mean half the characters' names are censored, and you can't even say 'the pope' lmao
LMAO, didn't know this either.
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@DarkMagik said:
IVote first then watch the following)If you want to:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAIPWD9mHYw
btw this isnt my channel
I mean, I don't think that there is one.
Even in the game, you might see a toxic blendette tea bagging a new killer after looping him for literally 40 minutes after all the surviviors in the swf group decided to not complete last gen, and then finally scream ggez at the top of they're lungs as many times as possible before the killer leaves. If anything, they might be the antagonist at times.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Because the Chat Filter does not make sense in a game like DBD. Usually, something like "Kill him" can easily be censored, but it does not make sense to censor it in a game, where one side is killing people from the other side.
Odd, its funny though.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2102409#Comment_2102409
Keys are only useful in a minority of matches as is, though. Using one has never been anything close to a guarantee.
I'm fine with limiting their usefulness by changing when the hatch spawns, like I said, but if their hatch-opening abilities are only helpful in rare cases they need to become more generally useful to justify their rarity and loadout slot.
This is a lie, they are outright useful what are you talking about?
They allow you to escape freely.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2102385#Comment_2102385
It should be a chance. It should never be a guarantee.
That's asking too much. Period.
Agreed.
I still wouldn't be to mad if they just made it where only one survivor can escape via hatch in a trail, or something similar.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2102098#Comment_2102098
I don't see much value in burning an item slot to have a chance to open the closed hatch as the last survivor or to open the closed hatch after the gates are powered. This is something that might save your life in what, one game in 50? For the other 49 you would have been better off with almost any other item/add-on combo, and the same would often still be true in that 50th game given that bringing stronger items can often allow you to avoid situations where escaping through the closed hatch is necessary. It'd be way too situational to ever justify bringing.
I don't see the viability in burning a perk slot as the only feasible way to counter them either, but you ignored that because it didn't fit your argument.
The keys shouldn't be powerful, again the goal of a survivor is to escape, its not very fair if they can at any point just do that. Imagine if killers could just outright kill someone due to a offering, used to be moris that allowed both of these op items to vs each other, but those don't exist anymore and universally these two (moris and keys) are hated.
Also, the base kit for a survivor is more then strong enough so its confusing when you talk about items as if you wasted that slot its the end all be all.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2094908#Comment_2094908
Because, unless an offering was used, there's not a guaranteed escape. Because the hatch hasn't spawned.
Right, I agree with you then completely.
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@Danoobiel said:
Moris have been basicly removed form the game and so should keys.
Especially with that wallhack addon.
Achievements can easily be changed.
Also remove hatch. We have end game collapse anyway.
Survs don't need 3+ ways to escape, especially when they did nothing all match.
Killers don't get a free kill if they do badly.
Agreed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2092145#Comment_2092145
That solves the frustration some people have, but the key downside is removing all viability from keys as an item. The add-ons and charge time are extremely weak by themselves, so if you're going to substantially limit their ability to open the hatch in useful situations they should also get a charge time buff and add-on rework in order to remain viable. Given their rarity, keys should be strong, just probably strong in a different way than they are now.
No, just like moris, they need to be nerfed equally into the ground.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
I agree with your last point, the meter should either function like deep wound depending on how many knives you've hit the survivor or function like ghost face.
Main event also kinda sucks and does need a rework. Now, if the killer uses main event you just jump on a locker and you're fine, which feels unfair.
I think that bouncing knives are a bit of an overkill and won't really help him that much. I have a better alternative:
When you hit a survivor they get a 1% or a 2% speed reduction that reset when they lose a healthstate so the trickster can stack hits easier and make his power worth using.
Erm, wouldn't that only give like -5% speed or something super insignificant?
Also I meant all three of those ideas together.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Laceration decay could be distance based.
If you hit a 20+ meter shot, add a teal tick to the laceration meter. Teal ticks don't decay.
also ######### is up with everyone losing 4 ticks of laceration on an M1?
I don't know, don't like that either though.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2094913#Comment_2094913
Are achievements more important? No. Not at all. But the devs find them important and for that reason I can't see them being disabled/changed majorly.
What is your motive in saying this?
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2092147#Comment_2092147
Yet Microsoft, Sony and Steam aren't fond of changing them, neither are dbd. I'm not trying to use that as a way to say their balanced but rather they won't be changed that way because neither party would be in favour of it. That's why we still have hard achievements such as Left Behind, because they don't and won't want to go through the effort I'd presume.
Additionally, my other point is still valid.
This seems to be in favor of a counter argument however you have not done so by stating this so I am lost as to why you would say this unless you think that achievements are more important than game balance, which is not reasonable.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084551#Comment_2084551
STOP USING ACHIEVEMENTS AS AN ARGUMENT TO NOT BALANCE THE ######### GAME.
Achievements CAN be changed so long as the achievement is no longer possible to get.
I agree, already addressed when people have done this and pointed it out in this thread however though.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2091039#Comment_2091039
The problem isn't keys. It's hatch.
Hatch should spawn only when 1 of the following 2 conditions are met:
- All the gens are done.
- Only one survivor remains.
This fixes the biggest issue with keys (more than 1 person escaping before the objective was done) while still allowing the 4 man hatch escape achievement to be doable. Also has the positive side effects of fixing "DCing for hatch" (unless a hatch offering was played of course), and the last survivor camping for hatch (unless a hatch offering was played, but then the killer knows where it is too).
Literally doable in a hotfix level patch. I saw this solution in a youtube video and there's literally no downsides.
I agree, this would work as well.
How does this stop DCing resulting in hatch escapes however?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2088975#Comment_2088975
If you're not going to read my arguments, I'm not going to bother explaining my point of view.
I'd also recommend you look up what a strawman is. You: "Florida is so warm in the summer." Me: "Yeah, it gets hot down there". You: "Hot is not the same as warm, strawman!" It's just semantics lol
When you construct an argument for me, very much so when you implicate I said or implied something and then go along with that it is a strawman.
Main reason I didn't read entire paragraphs is because you basically said the same thing, and when you didn't it was fallacious and when it was not that it was a argument that you created and finally when it was not that I disagreed strongly for reasons I gave, and lastly when it was not that I thought it was fair.
Which I already expressed, I am guessing this whole "semantics" thing is a red herring you are trying to do. Flashbang tactics prove there is something wrong with your argument, in any case, fallacies point out why a argument is irrational, nothing more.
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@Dodgingbears said:
You know dang well the devs are already working on new ideas for cash grabs and a new game. There have been tons of bugs and the game doesnt hold water for long. which is why I have played off and on since the beginning, keys are terrible. You should have to have a minimum of 2 players with a key to unlock a hatch and it should only work if A) 3 others are dead or B) all generators are done AND the killer can see the hatch.
It is already incredibly imbalanced to have 4 adept players VS one. you cant really balance for that, so you have to accept that you cant always 4k and that is hard for most players. Mostly because of the toxic survivors in the lobby or in the game with a SWF that you have clearly been bested in. The devs cannot correct for toxic player base with buffs or nerfs, that is a slippery slope.
This game has been incredibly buggy since the day it has come out. You just have to accept that when you play it. They are a decent company when it comes to themes and artwork (now) and they are pretty terrible when it comes to gameplay and coding. Their balance is what it is, it has ebbed and flowed, they are super behind the 8-ball with implementing things that are successful in other games (SWF lobbies), parties, balancing loops, perks, etc. It is what it is. The game is fun in context. there are worse games out there and there are much better games out there.
Bhvr is a smaller company with some developers that are out of their depth when it comes to expectations the community has. Dont make this into something it isnt, it is a ton of fun and has given life to many other asymetrical games (good and bad) and remains one of the best games in the horror genre. Its not perfect and at times its almost unplayable for some characters or against some items, but eventually it ebbs back and the game flows better. Just take it for what it is and appreciate the good aspects. It has been around long enough that the community knows and accepts what BHVR is and what you can expect from the game. Laugh, have fun, hook em, loop em, and appreciate the efforts!
I think I agree with you to some degree?
However your thinking is scary, mainly because you basically acknowledge they do cash grabs **cough cough: The last Halloween update** but then still want to give them the benefit of the doubt, which is odd.
They can get my benefit of a doubt when they don't let issues persist for years.
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@voelkl said:
this is such a non issue. they said in a dev interview that only 2-3% of games end with keys. sure it doesn't feel good when playing killer, but endless forum posts for 2-3% of games is silly.
Only as silly as another OOO is not op argument because of low escape ratio, try again with something not fallacious (and silly) and I will consider your argument.
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@Witas said:
Hopefully the delay's because they're working on a more complex rework, though this may mean on the other hand that we won't see it until like 2022, BHVR takes ages to change literally anything.
Hopefully. XD
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@valvarez4 said:
Use keys is a strategy, same as camper or tunneling.
Fallacy, in that case dying is too.
Anyway, an item is not a plan nor strat, this is dumb.
You can include keys into a strat, although even then you aren't even arguing vs me at this point.
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@TicTac said:
I hope the key rework is in the next chapter. I had a swf with a key, a map offering, a hatch offering and with a iridiscent map to find the hatch.
To be fair they needed it bc they played like rank 20 (they were red and purple), but something like that shouldnt be possible.
Oh thats a meme bully squad it sounds like. XD
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/240533/keys-still
it took them 3 years to just change a number on how many hooks mori's take to be usable, they're giving keys a full rework so itll take them at least until next chapter, if I were to guess. I'd be shocked if it came with the mid chapter. Im just annoyed that before it got its reworked they decided to add key on easy mode with the hatch offerings.
Thats fair ig.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2085983#Comment_2085983
If matchmaking is reasonably fair, the game is almost always a 4k or 3k + hatch if a survivor gets Mori'd quickly. And, if matchmaking is reasonably far, a survivor should almost always get Mori'd quickly. Your one real hope on the survivor side is that matchmaking wasn't fair so the killer isn't able to get that quick Mori in the first place. If a killer wants that Mori, though, it should happen within the first 2-3 minutes of the game. ~40-60 seconds for the first hook, ~30 seconds for the unhook, ~30 seconds to tunnel that first survivor off the hook and Mori them. If survivors are glued to gens their best case scenario is 2 gens left when that first survivor dies, but more realistically in a fair match (and especially with complementary perks like CI or Ruin) it should be more like 3. Especially with a pink Mori, but even with a green, a killer should almost always be able to play this into a 4k or 3k + hatch against a similarly-skilled team.
"Just don't get hooked" is not a counter to Moris. If that were a viable counter survivors would never lose. "Just don't get hooked and walk out the gates" 4head. Keys would have been a soft counter to Moris, but they couldn't be used as such because survivors never know when a Mori is going to be brought. As a result, survivors couldn't even attempt to counter it with perks or items. Ergo, no counter. It's the same bad argument as "just bring a flashlight" to counter Hag, or "just bring Iron Will" to counter Spirit, or "just bring Spine Chill" to counter Deathslinger, or "just bring Calm Spirit" to counter Doctor, or "just bring Detective's Hunch" to counter Ruin, or... darn, loadout's full. Guess I can't counter Moris now. Hopefully they don't add any new killers I need to counter :( (sorry for the snark)
Even when keys do instantly end the game, they seldom instantly win the game. Often it's just the last survivor who escapes, or much more rarely the last two or three. The killer probably already had at least a couple of sacrifices by the time the key gets used, meaning they're not going to depip (which I don't care about either, but many people do), they still had a chance to earn plenty of BPs, and they might have even comfortably won the game. And, again, this is when they're used at all. Keys that get brought into lobbies often never get used. Moris, on the other hand, almost always were used.
It is plain to see when a survivor is holding a key in the lobby. If a killer doesn't see that that's on them.
Hiding the whole game just to increase your chance of using a key at the end is not common, and it's also a straight gift to the killer. By not participating in the game you're basically giving them a 3k at worst in exchange for a good chance of escaping through the hatch.
Finding keys in a chest is not a concern. The base drop rate of keys in chests is 7% and there are 3 chests on a map. A lot of these keys will be green, but for the sake of argument let's say it's a 5% chance of getting a purple or pink key. In theory, then, it should take you about seven matches of searching every chest on the map to find a key. In the one match you find the key it could save your life, but you will also pretty commonly either die or escape without using it. In the other six matches, you wasted a substantial amount of time you could have been spending on gens opening chests, which would have helped out the killer a lot. You're basically paying forward any escapes you get.
"But you can stack coins and run Plunderer's and Appraisal and stuff". Not only are you going to dedicate half of your squad's offerings and a minimum of two perk slots to have a better chance at getting something you could just bring into the lobby, but this is still likely to be a massive time investment. Plunderer's doubles the chance of getting a key to 14%, so it would be a ~10% chance of getting a key out of any one chest. Even if you search all six chests and then use Appraisal on them after for a total of 12 searches, your odds of finding a single purple or pink key are only around 72%... That build is useful for farming keys, but the sheer amount of time you're spending off of gens for a chance at getting a key is just not worth it. If you had just stayed on gens you probably could have made it through the gates instead of needing a key. Chest keys will occasionally save a last survivor in a hatch-closed EGC situation, but that's rare to the point of not really being a concern imo. Keys brought into lobbies are a much bigger concern.
Franklin's has other uses beyond countering keys; it counters all items except toolboxes in a SWF while wasting survivors' time. If you see a lobby with a few medkits, a toolbox, and a key, for example, Franklin's is a pretty good option. If you see a lobby with a key and nothing else, there's no point in running Franklin's.
---
I'm not saying that keys shouldn't be changed; I'm just saying why it makes sense Moris were changed first. It was a simple change and Moris were substantially more broken than keys are. Keys are probably going to need a lot of work, but even implementing your suggestions would be a lot more involved than the Mori change. At a minimum they'd probably need to make some sort of entity blocker over the hatch, for example.
I would personally have them just take your middle suggestion and be done with it. I don't really have a problem with one person escaping through the hatch in any situation. If it's before the end game, your teammates are dead - thanks! If it's at the end of the game, alright, still got my 3k. Gg, let's requeue.
No, I don't agree with your premise at all.
I said decent, not unbalanced. If unbalanced then either side would always be winning,
Re: Moris end games faster, keys end them outright
Strawman, the point was that as long as you are decent and can do well in chase, it is hard for a killer to even use a mori, and if gen rushing then it was common for all gens to pop before you could mori someone. At base kit, you can counter moris, unless its like a nurse, in that case as said before just dc. XD
I read "even if keys do instantly end the game", and ignored whatever was in the paragraph, if you can acknowledge that fact and still want to provide a counter argument your point is likely mute.
Again strawman, I said hide, not afk. They purposely play insanely safe, and wait until whoever can chase for the group of survs is in chase and then they do gens typically, this happens commonly in bully swf groups, and with survs who just want to be mean.
Yup and thats another paragraph I am not reading, I don't even know why you are talking about the drop rate of keys, in any sense they are common enough that if you play survivor that you will start to stack them up, and that's all that's really needed to know.
You actually are trying to win me over on a point about franklins, this is actually funny, franklins can temp disable items for m1. So its useless vs most situations, and is a perk you never will use if no items are brought. Even then its not even that useful for anything more then a filler perk.
Finally a actual point, that I still disagree with, No it doesn't make sense why you would give one side of the game a advantage that already has a very strong base kit.
Removing X from any side that has a strong counter part is just objectively not a good idea in a online game.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
The pendulum of balance swings both ways. Both sides get adjusted as necessary. This whole "survivors get m ore attention because they're the majority" misinformation needs to just stop. It's just speculation driven by biased circumstantial evidence at best.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084507#Comment_2084507
Doctor, Bubba, and Wraith were all buffed by their past reworks. Trapper has also been buffed as well.
Lol, no.
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@TheMadCat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084576#Comment_2084576
The other day, I found two (purple and pink) keys in one match, out of chests. And I don't even run Plunderer's. (Actually I was playing perkless...).
I thought it was a bit too much. 😅
Finding keys is common, although I am surprised that would happen.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084580#Comment_2084580
Even a single green Mori after the first hook would basically end the game unless the killer is a potato. There's no opportunity for DS either, so that survivor can't really even play for time to get their three teammates out. If the killer wants you dead, you're dead, and quickly. From then on, the game is a death spiral. It's no longer fun for survivors because their only hope is hatch anyway and yet they still need to play along so that the game actually ends.
Keys, on the other hand, usually don't do much. If you die before the hatch spawns, your key probably won't do much (weaved ring, your teammates aren't able to locate the key, your teammates don't remember the key in the first place, your teammates find the key but aren't able to locate the hatch before dying, etc.). If you escape without using the key, the key also didn't do anything. If you escape with the key in a match that you were ahead in, meaning you probably would have escaped through the gates had you not used the key, it didn't do much. If you do escape with the key, though, you usually escape alone. If you escape alone but not as the last survivor, not only does the game not end outright, but you probably increased the likelihood of the killer killing your remaining teammates. Games where multiple survivors escape through the hatch do happen, but they're rare.
Any of these outcomes is much better than the long death spiral. With Moris, the outcome is a foregone conclusion, but you still need to spend the time to play it out or be penalized with depipping and possibly a matchmaking cooldown (if you DC). With keys, you play the game as normal until the very late stages, and then in a minority of matches an extra survivor or two escapes at the end, the game ends shortly thereafter, and you requeue. It's much less likely to affect your pips, since you still have the hooks and sacrifices you accumulated over the whole game, and you should still have just as much fun playing out the rest of the game before the key comes into play.
Keys are also extremely counterable since they're visible in the lobby. Franklin's (esp. with Hoarder), tunneling the person with the key, playing well enough that the hatch only spawns for the last survivor (including digging out your sweatiest add-ons and perk build), etc. all work. You can also just dodge the lobby if you don't want to play against it.
Moris, especially ebonies, are substantially more common in the bloodweb than keys, especially on killers like Huntress that don't have two ultra-rare add-ons. This is because killers have fewer ultra-rare loadout items.
A final key point is that Moris are in the offering slot. Keys are in the item slot. Items are substantially more powerful than offerings, for one; old Moris occupied a slot usually filled by BP offerings or maybe slightly moving hooks closer together, while keys occupy a slot that could otherwise be filled with a stronger and more broadly useful item, like a Ranger Medkit or Commodious Toolbox. Survivors cannot stack their strongest add-ons, like BNPs, with a key. Killers could stack their strongest add-ons with a Mori.
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Removing keys and moris is not an option because they are both tied to achievements. I like the Mori change a lot and I'd welcome changes to keys as well, but keys need way more than just a flat nerf. If they're no longer going to open the hatch, their add-ons need to be buffed or the keys themselves need to be buffed in other ways (e.g. more charges, some base effect). Given their rarity and the fact that they're in the item slot, keys should be strong even if they no longer affect the hatch (or if they're weaker on that front, like only allowing the key user to escape and shutting the hatch behind them). Given that they're in the offering slot, Moris should be weak; that's why I'm a fan of the Mori change. Keys should not be similarly gutted or removed. They need a more substantial rework.
I read most of it, did a lot of skimming however because most of what you said boils down to simple points, your argument seems to be that because one survivors dies then the game is just over when that is not the case at all if the survivors are good as the base kit for survivors is insanely strong. Three survivor's can pop 3 gens if they are competent, because this is not a balanced game at all and never did I mean to accidently implicate it was and that keys are making it imbalanced if I did. The only exception is a great nurse, in that case the survivors would have to dc to escape they're cruel fate.
This point of keys being counterable is just bias, in that case moris pre patch were too, just don't get hooked and if you don't get downed again.The likely hood you are going to be able to realize someone is going to use a key is very unlikely considering its not clear, in fact most of the time when keys are used (ignoring bully groups) they find it in a chest, or purposely hide the entire game so they are not found. As said before too, you have to use an entire perk slot to counter a item, and this is where your point that mori being significantly better under the guise of because it only uses a offering slot goes down the drain. Very much so because as said previously, objectively instant game ending is much stronger then a drawn out game.
As with the depip, most players don't care about rank because all rank = is longer que times and harder players to vs. (assuming they didn't do something to match making again)
Games where all 4 survivors escape are rare indeed, however again typically they are used when you kill 2 players and you gain traction in the game in my experience.
This is just dumb this last part because everyone who is honest can realize both keys and moris are both trash and should not be nearly as powerful as they are/were.
Keys can still open hatch, I don't have a issue with that if:
-The hatch is blocked by the entity for that survivor in chase, so being annoying by taunting and then hatching in the face of a killer can't happen. (Wouldn't trigger during end game collapse.)
-After a survivor jumps into hatch, it closes
-3.5 seconds to open hatch
I am sure keys would not be nearly as annoying nor strong if those simple things were put into place as that's the bare minimum, so you can't use the poor argument that achievements are more important then game balance.
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