DBDVulture
DBDVulture
About
- Username
- DBDVulture
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186331#Comment_3186331
SoloQ is now miserable. It's not balanced at all.
Also SWF means more information. Not a bully squad (but I can understand the frustration with those). I am pretty sure you can win a lot against SWF - you just might not know they are SWF.
Also patch 6.1 on it's own was horrible. 2 guaranteed kills by just facecamping? 3rd by getting someone with NOED. I stopped playing during 6.1. Fortunatelly we got 6.2 with reassurence that countered hard camping.
"SoloQ is now miserable"; "Also SWF means more information. Not a bully squad"
Playing solo as the killer against an organized SWF is terrible. It's even worse when you don't know it is coming so you have the wrong perk build. Many of the perks simply don't work against a SWF.
Also playing solo as survivor largely depends on how good you are personally. People who have been playing for thousands of hours who can generally carry do well enough to safety or pip playing solo. Getting to that point can be an unfun experience.
Once upon a time there was an oversight where people figured out a way to equip extra perks as killer. This was quickly patched out as it was seen as an exploit. If we can communicate well as a SWF we might be getting 12 perks worth of information - or more. Don't you think that's a bit excessive? I have played with minimalist SWF groups that only get 4 perks worth of information and that still gives a huge advantage.
SWF is the biggest advantage you can get as a survivor because it makes you instantly better at the game with no cost.
-
@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3167907#Comment_3167907
Well if the gates have't been still opened you can quard them and try to get another down but it's good to have noed in that situation. But ideally you have at least 1 kill before endgame. So if you get down and one on hook then you can try to find last and if he unhooks the guy on hooks you should be able to get other one down. If the exit is ready force the last one out. Taking bit of risk at endgame can get you 3-4K instead just camping the hook and securing 2K. If it's 4 survivors alive you're screwed unless the noed is under the hook.
"Well if the gates have't been still opened you can quard them and try to get another down but it's good to have noed in that situation"
NOED stopped being a good perk years ago. Once upon a time it lasted forever and was not a hex so there was no way to remove it. The survivor who had the advantage during the entire game suddenly had to fear a killer who was 9% faster and could down them with a single hit unless they manage to make it out the doors.
NOED was nerfed into what will probably be its final form with this last patch as it shows survivors where it is now. If you think NOED is worth using then that tells me a lot about your level of understanding regarding this game.
-
@White_Owl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186186#Comment_3186186
That's not how matchmaking works, though? Each killer has their own MMR which depends on your history with that particular killer. Unless you have the same kill rate on Nurse and Clown, they won't be treated the same.
You are projecting a false level of separation. See the latest video from Choy.
If any of your killers hit 1600 MMR then all your killers are bumped up to a minimum 1200 MMR. The idea of completely independent MMR was removed because the devs were worried that veteran players on a new killer would be stomping noobs.
-
@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186312#Comment_3186312
Yeah I just absolutely don't believe that since it wasnt what was described. You can't bug a description.
This is what the old text said. What you're not seeing here is that it does not say : you are supposed to lose the ability once you use it.
This actually explains WHY you are supposed to lose the perk. Because you are literally placing a modified Flash Grenade on the generator.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186247#Comment_3186247
...Genuine question, what's the second perk you need to make Pain Res work now? Because it's very very good on its own, frankly.
To the topic, the game's improving in leaps and bounds and both sides are benefiting from it immensely. I'm enjoying the game so much more than before those updates, and I was already enjoying it quite a lot.
"what's the second perk you need to make Pain Res work now?"
BBQ or dead mans switch so you know where to go. Otherwise they just finish the last 15-20% of the generator. The old version gave a small amount of information and a small amount of regression.
"the game's improving in leaps and bounds and both sides are benefiting from it immensely"
DBD is more balanced when playing killer vs solo queue but the patch made killer Far weaker vs SWF teams. On average pre patch I was using pop 6+ times a game. Quite often this was to prevent the loss of a 3 gen setup.
If they really wanted to make the game fair then killers should have the option to DELETE dull totems if they are booned. That would mean at most a boon perk can be activated 5 times.
Also if we are wanting to make the game fair then SWF should have been restricted. A simple change of : no repeating characters/perks/items would have gone a long way to make it impossible to bully the killer with a SWF squad. Change the SWF menu so that you can see which perks are repeated (make them be red like pentimento debuff) Have all other perks appear in blue over the survivors head if not repeated (like the vigil buff).
-
@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186264#Comment_3186264
It was never intended that way yet the description did describe it that way?
It was never broken. It's a nerf the dev's can't justify and they are too proud to admit it was stupid.
Read what the mods wrote. You were supposed to lose the ability the second you applied it to the generator regardless of the killer kicking the generator or not.
-
@Grigerbest said:
Hello, just played couple of matches with Hag and I'm starting to get more and more of these end-game chat "rages"... I made a screenshots of the second match, I didn't in the first.
I'm playing Hag really "fair" (as survivors consider), I don't put traps under the hooks, I don't camp or tunnel, just picked up 3 gens and trap around them, making the web from the beggining.
2 Survivors was able to do 2 gens while other 2 were constantly going around my web, "playing with traps" and tried to get me into the chase. Then all 4 survivors made out to my web, and thats where the match was pretty over.
The match end up really badly for survivors, I did gave one of them hatch.
The map was: Coldwind Farm. Because of a Heart locket.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XBLSGP3ZYL48/1.png
In the end-chat, both matches I was getting these:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IO73LW4Z2HM1/2.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/M68UFIO9XBGK/3.png
Just wanna ask... Is this a "skill issue" of the survivors? Too much of op killer? Or just casual outrage?
Yes, I was hiding my traps in the grass, but some of them were pretty in the open, they've seen them and still was getting hit by them.
I just don't understand how Hag is so "irritating" to play against comparing her to other "irritating" killers like Nurse.
"I just don't understand how Hag is so "irritating" to play against comparing her to other "irritating" killers like Nurse."
I'll be happy to show you with a simple thought exercise. Let's play a KYF game where I play trapper and you will forfit the game if you disarm my traps if you are not holding a toolbox (this will simulate only being able to remove hag traps via flashlight). We will follow tournament rules where no items/perks/characters may be repeated. That means only 1/4 of the team at most will be able to disarm my traps. One of my 4 perks will be Franklins Demise; if you don't see the problem already then I could stop right there.
In short Hag was "balanced" to make her stronger but ignoring the fact that she's not "fair" or fun to play against. She can run Franklins to destroy flashlights and is one of the only killers in the game that needs an item to counter her power. Hag needs a "fair play" balance change where survivors can scratch out her traps by crouching and interacting with them. Also she should not be able to place a trap within ~10m of a hook.
Those two changes would require you to be cunning with Hag in order to win instead of allowing you to be cheap because you can deny unhooks.
-
Blast mine was never intended to be charged once and then you can use it indefinitely. Look at the flash bang perk - you have to work a gen then you get the blind. You have to prime the perk and then you get one use and that's it.
It's very strong for solo queue for telling people where you are working a generator. It's very strong for countering Overcharge as well.
-
Killers got a lot less out of the 40 perk rework than survivors. Instant regression was absolutely gutted and essentially removed. As an example you need two perks to make Pain Resonance work now. Pop is as dead as calm spirit (which nobody was using before and even less people are using now).
-
Blast mine is a helpful tool for solo queue vs Overcharge/CoB in the same way that Kindred is helpful for solo queue vs camping.
In the right situation it works fine. People got used to it working in a bugged state and think the perk is weak when it is fixed. Let us not forget that Survivors cried foul when Spint Burst's timer was changed from 20 seconds in 2016 because that made the perk worthless. Then it became "worthless" again when you could no longer get get sprint back mid chase.
-
@SuzuKR said:
The AFK Crow mechanic is reworked to the following:
- Each survivor has a personal 4 minute timer that decays while not downed or hooked.
- While in chase, doing a Conspicuous Action, or receiving a Conspicuous Action (eg, being healed), the timer is paused. During running, the timer decays at 50% speed. (So they can’t run around in the basement or corner forever)
- If the killer is in 8m and not in chase, the timer decays at 50% speed. (For hiding when killer comes nearby, but not allowing hiding forever)
- Recovering from the downed state or being unhooked restarts the timer.
- If the timer fully decays, AFK Crows spawn and will not go away until chase starts OR 14 consecutive seconds of doing/receiving a Conspicuous Action happens. Eg, snuffing a totem.
- This mechanic is disabled when only one survivor is alive or the Exit Gates are powered.
There is no excuse to spend 4 full minutes crouching/idling/walking and doing literally nothing to progress any objective or Conspicuous Action when it pauses on doing anything meaningful and resets on pickup and unhook. If you are actually playing, you will never have to worry about this ever being triggered on you.
Instead of forcing people to move with AFK crows it should be tied to : have you gotten more than 200 points toward the objective in the last 60 seconds. If the answer is no then you get crows.
Once you have a crow that means you have about 20 seconds to start getting points. Obviously if you had crows and were attempting a totem the timer should pause. But if you get the totem 75% done and stop then you should get your second crow (and the resulting explosion).
-
The Nemesis Licker Tongue addon should impose a 2% speed penalty until you are "not blue" anymore.
Likewise the NE-a Parasite should make you oblivious until cured.
Nemesis was delivered in a state where he would never really be viable vs good players because his anti loop requires you to hit someone three times. If they gave him a complete rework of his addons, fixed the zombie AI and changed his whip then he might be "ok".
Infection not giving a speed boost would help.
Letting Nemesis always be able to break pallets with his whip would help
Zombies giving Nemesis infection progress would help.
Letting Nemesis give infection & injury with tier 3 whip would also make perfect sense as he has to build up to that point.
-
@White_Owl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3185093#Comment_3185093
Nurse and Blight are on a different level than any killer ever, does it even make sense to use them as comparison?
It absolutely does as long as all killers are treated the same by match making.
The second you get treated differently for playing Blight/Nurse then that needs to be a consideration. Imagine for example if DBD had a universally set tier list and Doctor for the sake of example were placed in D tier. There might be a rule that D tier killers do not play against SWF. That means that the best doctor in the world who had a 1600 MMR rating would not play against SWF groups but solo players who had a rating over 1600. That is an example how we could balance the game but will likely not.
War Thunder and World of tanks give you a "penalty" if you play an extremely strong tank/plane. DBD treats you the same if you are playing Clown attempting adept as if you were Nurse with best addons/perks and using an offering to pick a map.
Blight and Nurse are the two killers that work regardless of map and SWF. They work and all the other killers fundamentally don't.
-
@FeryGEN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3185093#Comment_3185093
I agree about the zombies, their AI needs to be strengthened, they constantly get stuck in the rubble in the Red Forest, in the roots of the Eye of crows, in the bushes on Badham, at least they should counter Badham, I’m generally silent about the swamp, in my opinion the Swamp and the Red Forest are the most difficult maps due to zombies getting stuck, and the swamp on the hills blocks the blow with a tentacle. Let them at least know how to break walls, at least some benefit, in the game RE they knew how to break walls flimsy.
Zombies don't get to make the decision to break walls - but they should not get stuck. They represent at least 1/4th of his power. Imagine if one of your perks didn't load in. That's what it's like when the zombies get stuck or you play on a large map.
-
@White_Owl said:
The only think Nemesis needs is an addon pass, but his basekit is already really strong.
Nemesis base kit is strong say compared to the Ring but weak compared to Nurse/Blight.
Either SWF needs massive nerfs or Nemesis needs buffs to compete with them.
@FeryGEN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3184089#Comment_3184089
I show not the ability to kill all survivors with high MMR (I went not at rush hour, so they give low mmr in the daytime), I show the ability to break pallets, this ability works against any survivors.
You see, in terms of ability, Nemesis is next to the Huntress, make his base ability even stronger and all the players will start to leave matches.
Nemesis is a good killer compared to say Doctor but zombies do not snipe people across the map repeatedly. Zombies need a huge increase to their effectiveness on large maps or Nemesis needs a direct buff to deal with large maps better.
-
In short, revert him to somewhere around 2017 Billly so that he lost the flick but has strong addons before he received many micro nerfs.
Here's the marketing problem from PR though - why would anyone buy LF when the Free version is better? Solution from Corporate : nerf Billy into the ground.
-
@FeryGEN said:
He does not need this ability, it is enough to learn two of his techniques, the first I called Ping Tech (pre-break), the second is just breaking the pallet ignoring the survivor, so you should hit the pallet at an angle along the edge of the pallet with a tentacle.
I made a video specifically for this. The first two (David and Jill) show Ping Tech (because I invented this technique with the release of Nemesis, do I have the right to call it Heda Tech? After my name) In the video, the pallet breaks before it is dropped, in fact, on the screen of the survivor, the pallet is almost dropped, on mine it is only dropped, but this is a risky technique, because the survivor may not drop the pallet. The second technique is not risky, but the survivor does more distance. What are these techniques for? They allow us to be a good trade for the killer - we do not give a boost ability or from damage, while we control the situation so that the pallet does not block our path after any damage to the survivor
"He does not need this ability"
Know how I know you are playing against low MMR survivors? Look at how wide both you and your prey take all the loops. You can play 30 second afk clown with no perks at low MMR and smash all the surviovrs so sure at low MMR Nemesis is fine. Against organized teams he isn't fun to play because he is too weak.
-
Let's consider for a moment that Nemesis is a build up killer while Blight and Nurse have no build up required. Which is the worst platform of the three? The obvious answer is Nemesis.
If we're considering buffing Nemesis then pick two or maybe three of these options.
1) Make tier one whip break pallets
2) Make Nemesis move at full survivor speed while using the teir 1 whip and gradually move up to full killer speed while using the whip at t3.
3) Make tier 3 whip injure survivors and infect them with a single whip attack.
4) change the tentacle attack so that it hits over obstacles if it hits the survivor hitbox (no more ducking to avoid the whip)
5) rework many of his personal addons so they have a permanent but minor effect while a survivor is infected ( examples : make the green Licker Tongue be a permanent 2% movement speed reduction while infected and make the purple addon NE-a Parasite make you oblivious forever while infected.
Change Plant 43 Vines (green) to injure a survivor when using a vaccine or cause deep wound status if already injured.
Change Broken Recovery Coin (purple) so that there is only one chest in the trial. Maybe this chest should always spawn in the basement when using this addon.
Change Adrenaline Injector to have it show killer instinct when someone uses a vaccine for 30 seconds. Literally nobody has ever used this addon in its current state. This would make it have synergy with the Iridescent Umbrella Badge which is one of the decent addons on Nemesis in theory but you don't any use out of this addon because no one will ever use it close to you so the expose effect is pointless.
Change Jill's Sandwich to give Nemesis a permanent 0.5% movement speed buff whenever he infects a survivor. Yes that means Nemesis could reach 119% base move speed.
Change Damaged Syringe to increase injection time to take +15 seconds instead of +2 seconds.
Change Serotonin Injector to increase undetectable status for +30 seconds instead of +15 seconds
Rework his Zombie addons:
Change the pink Shattered S.T.A.R.S. Badge addon to permanently increase zombie speed by 20% whenever a generator is completed. Yes that would make zombies +100% speed when all the gens are completed. Yes that would make zombies +100% speed when all the gens are completed.
Completely Rework the Visitor Wristband to incorporate those effects into the Brian's Intestine so that it does all three effects and the wristband now does something completely different - maybe you cough twice as often while infected.
Completely Rework the Admin Wristband just like we did before into the Mikhail's Eye addon which will now do all three effects. This leaves room for the admin wristband to have a new effect.
Change Zombie Heart to add new effect: when a survivor is attacked by a zombie they do not receive a speed boost.
Regardles of which options you pick above zombies also need to be reowrked so that :
1) Zombies never get stuck (epecially on generators or trees).
2) Zombies are not worthless on large maps. This would require the zombies to likely have a percentage based perception increase relative to map sizes. In other words they would detect survivors from about twice as far away on large maps.
3) Zombies that infect a survivor give nemesis Infection Progress as if he whipped them.
4) If nemesis is using Lightborn then his zombies cannot be blinded anymore.
-
This map is way too bright.
-
@versacefeng said:
Growing up is realizing that this selection of outfits.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1XT7U4PLCB7U/image.png
Is better than this.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YL6YIZDWBMVR/image.png
Realistic outfits in this game are criminally undervalued, there's no way you all like dressing up as pastel Disney princesses in DBD.
EDIT: How much do you wanna bet that all the survivor outfits in the winning selection would become sets too?
"Growing up is realizing that this selection of outfits..."
First as one of my friends would say : that's just like an opinion man.
Second let me be the first to say the first two outfits on the top choice are gross - therefore that selection was doomed to fail.
Literally nobody plays Billy anymore. Zubat played Billy 24/7 and he abandoned the main for which he played nonstop for years. Giving Billy any skins is probably a waste of resources- sorry for the 5/∞ billy mains who are offended.
Plus Meg needs more outfits- she doesn't have enough. /kek
-
Your Rulebook sounds like it was inspired by survivors.
-
OP has a point - there is nothing that color red in the game.
-
Just don't even start with that. Nobody is using it in tournaments. It's never needed to be nerfed. It was so useless it got buffed to an insane degree compared to what it did before and still nobody uses it.
-
@Seraphor said:
Hex debuffs should always be telegraphed, otherwise survivors don't know to counter them by cleansing the totem.
Not having it displayed until the survivor is actually effected by it however is in the killers favour, so that they get some use out of it.
Can you imagine the reverse? Imagine if survivors standing in a boon were revealed to the killer be standing in a boon by their icon. The killer would also know what kind of boon.
Once again we have a situation where the Hex/Boon totem problem shows extreme favoritism to the survivors.
-
The old Key Mechanic made escape trivial. In that sense if you look at how keys worked before they ARE trash compared to how they are now. You physically cant get two people to escape after completing three gens anymore but everyone else is dead. With the old key system this was not a problem.
Keys are far more fair now and people generally don't want things to be fair - they want them to favor the side they play.
-
@GoodBoyKaru said:
Worse is subjective.
The old Orange Glyph was completely unachievable for me. I watched a video on it's effects hearing the Forums complaints and had to stop watching after 30 seconds and lay down in a darkened room for 2 hours before I could function again. It was literally completely incapacitating from 30 seconds of exposure- let alone how long a regular game of DBD can take. And the possibility of needing to do it multiple times? No.
This Orange Glyph isn't great, but it doesn't literally prevent my body from functioning. It's definitely not worse to me.
"This Orange Glyph isn't great, but it doesn't literally prevent my body from functioning"
Then make a spicy youtube video where you play an M1 killer, Trapper, Ring or someone really in the low tiers where you send yourself to the game.
I understand that the old glyph was physically not possible for you. That's poor design.
This new glyph that has almost no effect on some killers is really stupid. The fact that it doesn't tell you what it does is also stupid.
You can for example play Blight, Nurse or Nemesis and bring no kick perks to completely ignore the effect. That's a really stupid design challenge for a "challenge".
-
@IlliterateGenocide said:
its a challenge for a reason.....
It might as well be a : play nurse with AGI+Starstruck+ whatever challegne then.
-
Here's an idea for a rewrite:
Hook a survivor different from the one you hooked last time. Do this 4 times in one game.
-
@Sadako_Best_Girl said:
"just play nurse lmao"
BHVR probably.
Also real numbers are these. If you equip brutal strenght it will be the same breaking speed as pre 6.1.0.
If you equip deja vu....
No. I dont want to have to bring a dead perk to negate a challenge. This is the same reason the 1% of killer challenges I have left are because they force perk use with completely worthless perks.
-
@allMadhere said:
@DBDVulture You can call them an 'alternative' but aside from the non-repeating ideas, they're pretty poorly thought out (eg. an 8 perk killer...) They're an alternative to my ideas in the same way that replacing you car engine is an alternative to cleaning the windshield. Did I give you the impression somehow that my suggestion was meant to rectify all issues with SWF?
The entire purpose of my suggestion was rooted in my observation of how nice the bloodpoints-bonus on the main menu was. Since they recently implemented that, I deduced that it would not take much in the way of time, coding, or possible bugs - for them to then introduce a points bonus for killers facing SWFs.
Your ideas are an overhaul. These requests and complaints have also been parroted for years and years. Like I said before - clearly BHVR does not care to restructure SWF at this time (or in 2021, or in 2020, or in 2019, or in 2018...)
Your points aren't an 'alternative' to my idea, since the points-bonus could occur both with and without your suggested changes. They're not mutually exclusive.
If you feel so passionately, sounds like you should make your own thread. Seems to me though, that we're both aware BHVR doesn't care to make big changes to SWF. I think non-repeating characters and non-repeating SWF perks is a fine idea. But that's not what my OP was about.
"Seems to me though, that we're both aware BHVR doesn't care to make big changes to SWF."
And that's why they won't even give killer extra points for playing against SWF. Your idea isn't new as it was proposed many times in 2016 and several years later.
-
@allMadhere said:
@DBDVulture I mean sure keep going off, but all of your comments have very little to do with my OP. I'm not sure why you're arguing with me so vehemently about SWF - why does my opinion matter to you? If you feel so strongly - then go make your own thread about it (not that they don't already exist. Month after month... year after year...) If my idea was implemented -or- if my idea was outright ignored, you do realize that either option still has zero bearing on whether or not SWF issues are addressed right? I don't need any convincing about the pros or cons dude - the devs do.
To you and @EvilSerje (about queue dodging) that's why I noted that the SWF connections would be shown in the end game leaderboard, it would just be a points bonus for after the match is done. Killers dodge lobbies now as it is currently, if they suspect a 4 man SWF anyway.
I didn't post this to argue SWF logistics, clearly I understand and agree that there is an imbalance. My idea was a very minor, easy to implement improvement. I thought of it because I saw how nice the points bonus from the new main menu queue incentive can be, and since they've already added that, it wouldn't be much more difficult for BHVR to add this type of idea as well.
My comments are on point as they are an alternative to "just give the killer more points".
The simplest solution is to implement the rule : no repeats of characters, perks or items in a SWF. The added benefit is the red/blue icon that shows when perks are repeated.
SWF loses the ability to bully killers and it becomes more balanced. If you want the freedom to take all the best perks then you play solo queue and maybe you get 3 people who are all using some crazy build that is OP when everyone is using the same 3 perks.
-
@allMadhere said:
Connected lines or symbols of some sort should indicate who is linked in a SWF on the end game leaderboard (think Overwatch, you can see the dash lines between players to show who is queuing together).
I don't know what points bonus would be appropriate, but just for example:
2 SWF = 5% BP bonus (for killer)
3 SWF = 10% BP bonus
4 SWF = 15% BP bonus
I'm a survivor main, been playing since 2017. I believe SWF is necessary in a multiplayer game like this, it should never be removed. However, I do agree that it is much more difficult for the killer to face a SWF, especially if they are using comms. I think this would improve game health quite a bit; it's usually a disadvantage for the killer to face a SWF (compared to solo queue players), so the points bonus would ease that feeling of unfairness, I think.
Extra points for playing against a SWF will never work. Want to know why?
If you knew you could play against 4 solo queue players or the same 4 players with voice coms you would always choose the 4 solo queue players. As killer the things that earn you points largely speaking are goals that the survivors want to prevent and vice versa. When you play against a stronger team the game is over faster so you will generally speaking get fewer points.
SWF games make the game harder for you because they play more efficiently. You will get fewer points playing against a SWF than you will vs solo players because you won't get a gen kicked before the SWF completes it but you just might vs solo queue players. When playing against uncoordinated players you don't need to camp or tunnel and you can go for 12 hooks if you feel like it. That's not true for organized teams.
I would choose to play against a 4 man SWF team if I got 4 extra perks of my choice. Anything less than that and I would rather play against solo queue players. Very recently killer queues were instant and survivor queues took 5 minutes. If I felt like it I could refresh my lobby over and over until I found 4 people who were all solo queue players. Those games were always easier than SWF lobbies.
The problem with SWF is that it is an automatic advantage that makes the game more difficult for killer.
-
@allMadhere said:
@DBDVulture It's absolutely punishment to tell people they only get 50% of the loadout or tools other people get to use, simply because they are playing with friends. It's a multiplayer game. Nothing like that has been or ever will be applied to a multiplayer game.
And sure, I will concede my stance to 'my main issue with SWF is people whining about it' instead. So I won't speak for everyone. People have been waiting 6 years for many things to happen, but it's BHVR and we know how they are. You either play DbD for what it is, take the surveys, and put your money where your mouth is - or you stop playing. (But I will also note, when I say my main issue is the whining, I'm being literal. I don't consider valid criticisms or workable suggestions to be 'whining.')
DbD always has been unbalanced. Even if it were as close to balanced as possible - people would still complain about balance issues because it's a 4 v 1 game. It's uneven by nature (and as a survivor main, I've personally always been of the opinion that killer should feel stronger in a game like this). I do agree that looking at new or low-skill gameplay compared to veteran play is night-and-day, almost like a different game. It's something I explain to anyone new that is considering learning how to play. I think the emblem system gave us our best chance (to date) to make matchmaking more fair, but again, we are just at BHVR's whim right...
I see nothing wrong with listening in on a streamer, SWF or not. It's up to them if they want that to be an option or keep it hidden.
I'll also retract my statement about not being able to adjust SWF. I've actually thought about the non-repeating characters and non-repeating perks bit before, and I think that would be perfectly fair. It would be nice if survivors could see each other's perks in lobby, regardless of this change, as well.
"SWF enthusiasts love to say the only thing that matters is playing with your friends." Acting like playing with friends is not a core aspect of a multiplayer game is short sighted. It might not be the only thing that matters, but it can't just be thrown to the wayside.
It wasn't my intention for this thread to be a discussion or debate about SWF. My suggestion was concise, simple, and easy to implement with very little chance of bugs / light amount of coding required. If nothing else changed, if BHVR addressed no other issues surrounding this - would my idea really not be appreciated? Like you said, people have been waiting 6 years for changes, and they've shown us just how much they care about the topic right? My idea would be a small improvement, in my opinion, and would take little to no effort to implement on BHVR's part. I can't help but feel like your responses are 'I don't want this change unless they fix everything else.'
-"I'll also retract my statement about not being able to adjust SWF. I've actually thought about the non-repeating characters and non-repeating perks bit before, and I think that would be perfectly fair. It would be nice if survivors could see each other's perks in lobby, regardless of this change, as well."
This is really the minimum that should happen and could have happened years ago. It would greatly reduce the potential for bully squads while not really hurting 2 man SWF groups. The ability to see who is using what perk without asking would be a nice addition.
-"I can't help but feel like your responses are 'I don't want this change unless they fix everything else."
SWF is literally the most broken thing in the game aside from cheating (but let's ignore that). As soon as you get into a group that knows how to relay valuable information you are better at the game. You don't need to bring most of the information perks anymore and you can focus on "action" or "buff" perks.
The classic example is : BT, DH, DS, Unbreakable. That build gives you literally zero information and if you try it without being in a SWF on coms quite often you don't do very well when you use it unless your play time is 3000 hours or higher. You have no need for most of the aura information perks when your friends can tell you basement is here, there killer is putting a trap there, blah blah blah.
One of the biggest problems with DBD is that it isn't fair on purpose. If the game had better/more fair rules overall it would likely keep more of the people interested in the game. It's a pity that nobody on my friends list who owned the game in 2016 still plays DBD. The only people I know that are still playing DBD are people I have added within the last year.
The game has trouble growing because people eventually figure out that the game is rigged in favor of the survivors. It's one thing to have a game that you know isn't fair and continually try to adjust it. It's another thing to have a game and keep it broken because that is what makes the most money. That's what DBD does.
Survivors buy more cosmetics as a function of being 4/5 of the players in a game. But generally speaking they are placated at the expense of the killer audience (looking at 6 years of buffs/nerfs and the timing of those changes).
DBD isn't a game where 5 people go into a lobby as a group and one of them is selected as killer. You make a Survivor team and then you play against a killer. DBD has had problems keeping killers interested in the game many times. There was a killer strike in 2017 and somewhere around 2017-2018 I had friends who waited 10-15 minutes to get into a game that lasted 5 minutes. Within the last year queue times were close to 10 minutes again before they changed MMR.
All this is great except SWF has never really had any kind of balance. The reality is you're never going to fix everything else as long as SWF is allowed to be as it is now. SWF needs to be a "side grade" not an upgrade.
-
Scott Jund made a video. Zubat has been doing it on his stream. Otz was testing it today on his stream. He finished a gen affected by Pentimento in 82 seconds while he was not even using all the right perks and did not have 4 stacks of Stake Out.
Scott and Zubat have finished gen in ~47 seconds in live games. That's stupid.
If you combine the perks in two man teams you can absolutely break the game. Have two people who run HF+SO. Have two people run streetwise+Prove thyself. Instead of having 90 seconds gens x5 it will be closer to 50 second gens. Needless to say this completely breaks the game because the survivor objective was already about two minutes faster than the killer objective.
-
If there were a killer version of the Reassurance perk it would lock out a generator for two minutes.
You need to remember there are four survivors so when the killer spends 10 seconds doing something at least three other players get 10 seconds as well. That means one minute of the killers time is worth three minutes of "free time" for the survivors.
The only way to change this ratio is to kill a survivor with three hooks. Gee imagine that - killers tunnel. If you want to end tunneling then killers need some kind of base kit mechanic that is STRONGER than tunneling so that they don't want to tunnel.
Imagine for example if you kick a generator after hooking someone and then leave the hook. As long as your terror radius is not touching that survivor then the generator you kicked is blocked for two minutes AND continutes to regress the generator at a rate that can be enhanced by perks.
That would instantly make killers be interested in going for hooks over tunneling people out of the game. But you probably don't want that. Most people want killers to play nice and let the survivors tunnel out generators while they do not do the same to the enemy team. This is an unrealistic request.
-
@allMadhere said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3173628#Comment_3173628
That seems a bit convoluted and I'm not sure I entirely understand what you mean.
I agree that choosing to lock out SWFs from killer queue isn't reasonable (or rather, I would say just isn't feasible). "Nor is keeping the game the way it is now." I disagree with that, though. The game is in its 6th year, SWF has always been a part of it, always will be.
As for your suggestion, do you mean the solo getting paired with the SWF gets 4 extra perks in such a scenario (8 total)?
"Give the killer any 4 perks... you are buffing killer too" - do you mean they get 4 extra perks as well? 8 perk killers? If that's what you mean, then that's just silly and wouldn't work... nor would it ever be implemented.
"This will make SWF a disadvantage" - it sure would, which is why the devs would never do such a thing (and why my idea didn't include any disadvantages). It's a multiplayer game... Who would want to launch a game that punishes you for playing with friends or bringing people into the community?
The only true 'issue' with SWF is the whining about it, which is what my (simple) suggestion was meant to address. No skin off the survivors backs, and makes the killer feel rewarded instead of punished for the extra challenge. Messing around with loadouts and base game mechanics will just make balancing even more difficult, and will continue the cycle of people whining and complaining. This game is 4v1, it's never going to be perfect - but getting extra points for something that feels frustrating would improve the mood / experience.
-"As for your suggestion, do you mean the solo getting paired with the SWF gets 4 extra perks in such a scenario (8 total)?"
Yes but they only get to choose information perks for extra perks. Examples include : kindred ,bond, rookie spirit, alert, empathy, etc.
-"Who would want to launch a game that punishes you for playing with friends or bringing people into the community?"
It's not punishment; it's called balance. SWF gives a 15% extra chance to escape. That's completely insane when you compare it to solo queue. It is exceedingly clear that SWF gives an advantage and if given the choice most killers would only play vs solo players.
-"The only true 'issue' with SWF is the whining about it"
That's a lovely attitude. People have been asking for six years to make SWF balanced. What was slowly happening was that all the killers were quitting. Before the mmr changes (which was right before the 40 patch shake up) there were times where playing survivor had a 5 minute queue. Killer queues were instant because no one wanted to play that role. Adding new insanely broken perks like Hyperfocus is going to throw the game askew again. Right now there are a lot of people who are in low MMR with killer and think : oh look how easy this is - this is great.
DBD is night and day difference when you play vs randoms who can't loop well vs coordinated teams who play optimally. The difference is so great that we might as well have different rule sets depending if you are new to the game or you are "established". One of the lead game designers who is no longer part of the project, Mclean, was very much against an idea of "changing" rule sets. The reality is that DBD is not a fair game because overall the game balance considers low/medium level play and ignores high level play. That would be fine If I could choose to not play against the high level survivors (as long as I don't play Blight or Nurse).
One of my favorite things to do as killer is to find some live streamer and listen to their SWF coms (without looking). They tell me who has unbreakable, MoM, Deliverance, DS, Prove Thyself, etc. In my opinion it's pretty fair when you can listen to the voice coms that people are using that supposedly "dont give a big advantage". Streamers get extremely mad to learn you were listening to their voice coms but to be honest it's just a move to level the playing field. If you are good at DBD you can carry in solo queue.
What I find really annoying is that most survivor mains become deeply offended when you ask to impose any kind of balance change on SWF. As an example imagine this very simple restriction : No repeated characters, perks or items. To use SWF logic against you : since most people play duo's it won't matter in the slightest. There are plenty of perks to split between two people. And if anyone is playing SWF in a three or four man group they will become limited but that will help keep the game fair to the killer. With this suggestion they could add a visual icon of all the perks over a friendly survivor's head that is part of your SWF. Any non repeated perks would be in blue (think vigil buff) and any repeated perks would be colored red (think thanatapohbia debuff).
SWF enthusiasts love to say the only thing that matters is playing with your friends - until you try and balance the SWF experience so that it no longer gives them a huge advantage. And then they cry about punishment.
-
@allMadhere said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3173617#Comment_3173617
Perks? Such as? (Or do you just mean an extra slot?) Can't say I agree with either notion.
Letting the killer choose not to play against SWF is potentially fine, considering it only affects that killer, then. But then your queue times are going to be 30+ minutes considering the amount of 2, 3, and 4 person teams. It would need to find you 4 solo survivors within your MMR, it would take a long time.
Choosing to let a killer not play vs SWF is not reasonable - nor is keeping the game the way it is now.
When playing vs a swf let any solo players pick a cache of 4 perks to use that are selected before the match starts. They only activate in case SWF are in the game and they are not in the SWF.
Let survivors only bring info perks because that is what SWF gives you as a result of being able to talk.
Give the killer any 4 perks they want that they have access to. This will make SWF a disadvantage because you are buffing killer too.
-
Playing against a swf should give you bonus perks - not bonus xp.
Talking gives SWF extra information which translates to effectively extra perks.
Make the game fair or let the killer choose not to play against swf.
-
@deckyr said:
the whispers are intended to cover up the noises of sick survivors so that they can hide from you while you are capable of wiping out the team.
And almost everyone thinks the whispers are too loud/harsh on the ears - just like Billy's saw.
-
No one has replied because you are 100% correct. You nailed the thought process on the first try.
Those two changes would make Hyperfocus an equal option compared to say prove thyself.
-
@darkcloudlink said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3169945#Comment_3169945
I’ll admit I’m not super well versed in the olden days of DBD. I’ve seen gameplay and read things about the older builds of the game, but I was never able to experience it myself, unfortunately.
In a game with only 3 killers like olden DBD was, the suggestions I’m making would be really bad. Your suggestion of balance would definitely be the only solution besides adding new killers that also put you in control of chases. As you add more and more competent killers, naturally the variety between killer choices would increase and you would ideally see a healthy amount of players choosing all of the characters.
There are a whole lot of factors for killer choice, whether it’s how strong they are, their ease of use, how easy they are to obtain (free, paid dlc, buyable with iri shards) etc. As you balance killers and bring them to more similar levels of strength, these factors get narrowed down even further, you get down to: How fun is the killer to play? How easy are they to unlock? How cool do they look / how cool are their cosmetic options / are they a fan of a specific killer because it’s a character from their favorite movie/game/etc?
When the killers are balanced to a point where people play certain characters based on cosmetic preference and or how fun a character is, you’re going to naturally have people gravitating towards the most popular IP’s or original characters in the game with the greatest cosmetic variety, particularly with licensed killers and or killers that are free from the start of the game, and that’s where I think we’ll still have issues with people bunching up playing the same characters and eventually seeing people having to go against the same killers over and over again.
When you look at a killer like Freddy, he’s from a popular IP, but is (according to a lot of people) weak, paid DLC, and has no cosmetic variety, so many people choose to pass over him. People who play Freddy are most likely variety killers, people who enjoy Nightmare on Elm Street, or people who just enjoy Freddy without caring too much about his other qualities.
But when you look at a character like Nurse, she is free, has many cosmetics, and she is a top tier killer. This makes her a very easy and popular choice. Her advantages are availability, strength and variety in appearance.
Whether this is all good or bad or if it even matters is subjective, of course, but I do think we should have a bit of input in deciding how our matches are formed, based on the fact that people will always gravitate towards a specific group of killers, regardless of the state of balance in the game. Perhaps there’s another way to address the problem and incentivize killer variety in matches, but I figured I’d try to come up with a solution rather than doing nothing and keeping my concerns to myself.
If we are being super honest I think DBD was a fluke. It was a happy accident that they sold a million copies and it is an even bigger surprise that people are still playing the game.
DBD will never be a "balanced" product as long as the devs are ignoring high level play.
Freddy was at one point the killer with the highest win rate by 4% and the result was that he was scheduled for a nerf. The reality is that without old tinkerer and pop he could go back to how he was before he last got nerfed. Freddy was only strong because he could always know which gen to go kick at a moment's notice and set it back by 20% after a down.
One of the biggest balance concerns with DBD is that Nurse and Blight are by far the best killers with no addons. And yet they have some of the strongest addons that can add 20-40% boosts to their powers. #########?
Meanwhile before her rework Pig had an addon that increased crouching speed by 1.5%.
-
@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3168732#Comment_3168732
He did not repeat those games and both of those games were not an "AFK" experience.
Fair enough, obviously breaking his own rules if those things happened like that. But eh, it's just two rounds, and it's still not like he actually "played" for those 30s, doesn't really take anything away from the overall point he tried to make with that challenge.
Watch one of true's videos
I've seen my share of Tru3 content and while I won't say he isn't competent/decent, he's far from the best killers I know. And something I've learned from playing and watching (a lot of) DbD is that good killers often make it look easy if they catch survivors, even if those same survivors could run another killer around. There's a lot of micromechanics and micromanaging stuff that doesn't immediately or intuitively meet the eye that goes into skilled chase play, those things can even make competent survivors look stupid.
That said, obviously there are a plethora of telltale signs whether a player is good, and while I can't say from my (admittedly limited) time of watching Otz and Tru3 content that either of them faces better players more often, I also can't say I've actually set out to seriously compare it. Maybe I will, but I honestly just doubt it's the case, I just can't see why it would be, again, if anything I'd expect better players to be roaming the fog at night.
To be fair he is doing a face camping thing today but he wasn't the last few times I watched him.
I'm inclined to believe Otz uses his challenges to be able to play like that without losing his "nice streamer" status, lol. He definitely cares about winning, and this stuff gives him a pass to do anything "mean" he might not normally want to be associated with.
Anyway, this is obviously all beside the main point.
Make it so survivor's cant tunnel gens and make it so the killer doesn't want to tunnel survivors out. The killer objective is too long and the survivor objective is too short. It's really that simple.
Yeah, given equal skill and experience on all players in match of DbD, for most killer characters the idea of winning while going for alternated hooks such that they get their first kill 9 hooking events into the match is just not feasible. Some of the killers can do it, but overall the game is definitely not balanced for that idea. So with nerfs to camping/tunnelling, there should have to be compensatory adjustments. And preventing survivors from being able to "tunnel" and "camp" gens is not actually as absurd as it sounds - an early game collapse where all gens are blocked until the first chase begins as well as blocking the gen with the most progress whenever a survivor is hooked or unhooked until another gen is finished are just two ideas for something that would actually lead to survivors not being able to stick to gens from the get-go, nor to just stay on their gen until it is done. Or for a simpler implementation: "Corrupt and Deadlock basekit".
You cannot deny my experiences.
I won't say you are lying or whatever, but for a lot of people it really is that they remember their worst games the most, so even after a playing session of 10 games or whatever where they pretty comfortably succeeded against 8 random groups, the 2 coordinated SWFs can make them feel as if they had a really tough day in the fog. But if you scout out all your lobbies for SWFs I won't just deny that perhaps you actually are getting them that regularly. Either way, as I suggested before, if you do not enjoy having to play like that in order to win and can't seem to manage to win without it, just stop using those strats and you should eventually arrive at an MMR where you can on average do well without them. If you however want to win most of your matches and don't mind camping and tunnelling to do so, you can't really complain about getting tougher opponents either of course.
The stats they posted were very misleading but the majority of players are in a SWF of some kind. Considering that was a time when it was easier to play in solo queue I think those stats have heavily shifted.
I wouldn't really call them misleading, there is still a substantial difference between duos, trios and quads, so it's fair to make the distinction that 4-SWF specifically only makes for around 5% of the global player pool. While we have no concrete reason to assume that the group size distribution has to have changed significantly since then, I will say that MMR in all likeliness has made it more common to face SWFs at the cap, that's been my experience too anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if 4-SWFs make for around 10% of the high MMR player pool on average, and we're probably having at least a duo in like 70% of our killer lobbies there. But yeah, this is all anecdotal.
Like I said, I'm confident I am at the MMR cap on my "main" killers, and I usually refrain from camping and tunnelling and yet I still succeed more often than not. I definitely get my share of tougher opponents, and I have more people escape than I would if I were to camp and tunnel of course, but if I look back at a killer session in earnest, I would be lying if I said I don't also face a lot of subpar survivors, or that I'm struggling to compete.
-"But eh, it's just two rounds, and it's still not like he actually "played" for those 30s"
If you treat it like a fault in any sport then that would change those 4ks into two 0ks. That's a huge swing to lose 8 kills. The way in which he forgot to go AFK made a huge impact on both of those games.
-"I've seen my share of Tru3 content and while I won't say he isn't competent/decent, he's far from the best killers I know"
True plays DBD to make money. Most of the games he plays are builds people pay him to play. Most of the builds are sub optimal to say the least. While he plays he always gives little bits of teaching advice.
This is an example for you of "evening" players. Look at how few of the pallets get used on The Game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H7PrPFMjpI
-"9 hooking events into the match is just not feasible. Some of the killers can do it, but overall the game is definitely not balanced for that idea."
It's not just the killers base power kit. Most of the maps are completely game breaking for the old killers. It would be a different game if slow movement speed killers could never play maps larger than 9000m². It would also be a different game if the pallets were spread out so there were more dead zones and less zones that allow you to go from pallet to pallet to pallet.
-"just stop using those strats and you should eventually arrive at an MMR where you can on average do well without them."
In other words : just throw the game and you will eventually be in a "fun" MMR. No thanks. I would like the game to be fair beyond low/medium levels of skill. In order for it to be fair past that point you need to play vs solo queue or you need to play dirty. Alternatively you can just play "ok" with the best two killers in the game because they are so much better than every other killer. This is also boring.
-"I wouldn't really call them misleading, there is still a substantial difference between duos, trios and quads, so it's fair to make the distinction that 4-SWF specifically only makes for around 5% of the global player pool"
So many people are of the opinion that SWF is when you have 4 people in a group on coms. Two groups of two people playing in a SWF is two SWF groups. They aren't playing alone and have extra information if someone in the pair dies. The devs were clear that about half of all games feature SWF and that SWF gives a 15% escape advantage - even though they seem to refuse to nerf it.
-
@darkcloudlink said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3169875#Comment_3169875
I wholeheartedly agree, balance is key. I don’t think it would solve the issue of going against the same killers over and over, however. I think get where you’re coming from, or maybe where you’re going with this - that is to say if all the killers are balanced, then there’s less incentive to exclusively play Nurse or Blight or whatever the strongest killer is, and that would create more variety among killer players. But consider, for example, Wesker ends up being the most popular killer (because who doesn’t love Resident Evil), even if Wesker is balanced, many people would complain about going against such a large amount of Weskers every play session. There’s also bound to be a portion of the player base that doesn’t enjoy Wesker’s gameplay and would rather face off against the rest of the cast in the game. Giving players the slightest bit of control over what would otherwise be RNG could be the difference between having a thrilling and fun match, or loading into a match, seeing a first aid chest and yeeting out of the game.
It’s not always that people want to avoid a killer because they’re unbalanced or too strong, yknow? I find that people complain the most about Legion. Lots of people don’t like Legion because you spend 40% of your match mending deep wound. He’s not a particularly strong killer by any means, nor does he necessarily need any major balance changes to make him stronger, but people just find his hit and run style of gameplay boring and tedious. Maybe it’s not a problem for some, but it’s definitely an issue for a lot of others. I don’t mind Legion personally, but if you hate him that badly, I believe you should have an in-game solution to avoid that specific killer without A. Disconnecting B. Letting go on hook or C. Just accepting you’re going to have an unfun match based on RNG, because at the end of the day, everyone is going to have their own preferences and balance changes may not always result in the most fun matches.
Sorry for the super long response. May your eyes and brain find rest after reading this.
Unlike most people I'm not afraid of words and I love a well thought out reply - especially when it has paragraphs /gasp.
People play Nurse and Blight because those killers put you in control of the chase. Once upon a time there were 3 killers.
Trapper got picked because:
1) he could shut down the Killer Shack when it had 2windows.
2) If you put a trap in a "lane" on an old Autohaven Wreckers tile you could not avoid the trap because it had "suck in". In other words the trap completely blocked a lane. That was powerful in the old times but is no longer the case.
3) You could put traps at people's feet that took about 8 seconds to disarm. It was not possible to rescue them without disarming the trap unless another survivor was in the process of disarming it for you.
Wraith got picked because
1) NOED lasted forever and was not a totem
2) It was easiest to find people with him (stealth used to be a thing - go look at shelter woods in 2016)
Billy got picked because :
1) he had instant downs the whole game
2) once upon a time he could flick his saw at the end of a sprint to make an attack at angles beyond 90°.
3) There were no indoor maps. Imagine a time when you could zoom from any one generator to any other generator with almost nothing to really keep you from getting there via saw sprint. It was common for me to have saw srpints that gave 2000 points. It goes without saying that the saw once had no overheat. *Quick aside* : while we are here the old Billy angle saw flick was total BS that needed to go. Every other nerf against Billy was not necessary.
Trapper had a lot of map control but didn't put you in control of the chase because you were depending on traps that could be broken with sabotage or a toolbox (be aware that Sabotage was once one of the main meta perks because it broke hooks forever). Wraith was great at finding people but had no real control in a chase. Billy had control in chases because he moved so dang fast.
-
Hyperfocus would be fine with 2 changes:
1) Like autodidact it doesn't work with a toolbox.
2) Force the player to make actual great skill checks. In other words if you miss a great check you can't use Stakeout to cover your mistakes.
At that point someone is perfectly making very fast great checks and deserves the increased repair speed. To be completely fair SWF teams usually have 2x copies of Prove Thyself to make the gens about 45 seconds anyway.
That perk also needs to be changed so that you only get a speed boost if you have the perk too.
-
Oh no - a perk that has been mediocre forever is now decent on one specific killer when you pair it with another perk to make your TR huge.
It's totally fine.
-
Everyone was using it because it made chases much more difficult for the killer. The fact that you cannot combine it with an exhaustion perk makes it way more fair to the killer.
Instead of almost all the best players using it (like DH) it went down to minor use. The perk is still good if you know how to use it but you must give up an exhaustion perk. That's pretty fair.
I still use IW as I love the idea of a stealth escape.
-
The game got adjusted this patch to make it less abusive as survivor when playing Solo Queue. They still have not adjusted SWF - in fact SWF is easier after this last patch because the instant regression perks got obliterated.
-
Instead of making an avoid killer button - what the game needs is to make all the killers roughly balanced. Instead of having S, A, B,C,D tiers the devs should aim to make all Killers A or B ranks.
-
@CyberRoninX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3168660#Comment_3168660
Where are you getting your information from? Please post a source because after doing research for about 30 min this is all I have been able to find about the number of players that play SWF. When I talk about SWF I'm talking 3-4 man teams 2 man SWF doesn't do anything if you get paired with 2 players that aren't your skill level. So there is about 13% that are 3-4 man SWF. I know these figures are from 2020 but I cant find anything more recent and I'm sure it hasn't changed much. My best educated guess based off these numbers is that you have 20% 3-4 man SWF in the game that leaves a whopping 80% that is 2man or soloq. Please post sources for when the devs said 50% because its hard to believe when I have sources that say otherwise.
-"Where are you getting your information from? Please post a source"
The last time the devs gave us info they told us more than 50% of games played included SWF. That graph doesn't mean what you think it means when you look back at the original dev stream. If you play 20 games a night in a SWF and there are 4 casual players who play 5 games solo that equals out.
The same graph you are referencing was either designed to be misleading or was made unintentionally to give the wrong idea to anyone looking.
If I recall that is the same stream that gave us the information that SWF teams had a 15% escape advantage. There was no mention however of planned nerf to SWF - even though freddy got nerfed for having a 4% too high kill rate.
-
@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3167840#Comment_3167840
He didn't even follow his own rules on the AFK challenge.
How so? Besides, multiple people did the same challenge, everyone apart from Tru3 averaging 2 or more kills. https://twitter.com/otzdarvayt/status/1479461876669030400
Again, this is while perkless and giving survivors a crucial headstart. Note that I don't care to go into some useless argument about what specifically happened in all of those streamers' matches for this challenge and whatnot. I only brought this thing up to tangentially highlight how Otz, who you brought up as someone whose opinion you trust, is of the opinion that if you improve your killer play, you can win most matches pretty handedly. Take it from the man himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acHiwnCW7eI
Otz often plays late into the night when the competition gets weak. Truetalent makes a note of this all the time when he streams. Most of Otz's show is pretty late at night and there are a number of people that take note about how he gets overall much easier games. I'm not saying one is better than the other it's just a reflection of a notable fact.
Even if I were to accept it as a fact that competition on average gets worse at night (I don't, I have seen no evidence for this, nor do I know whether Otz actually mostly plays at night), the argument would just become "then play at those same times yourself lmao". Besides, why would we even expect players that play during the night to be worse? They are more likely to be the die-hard gamers that don't have work commitments or whatever, it is much more likely for casuals to play during the day.
And regardless, the argument that people apparently consistently get a completely different species of survivor players where suddenly the otherwise allegedly "IMPOSSIBLY SURVIVOR SIDED CAN'T EVER WIN" game becomes "yeah they 4k 99% of their games but that's totally normal at that time of day" has always been asinine. Not least because part of that "sentiment" is also that survivor is brainlessly easy to play and anyone can win if they just click a button or two... yet apparently thousands upon thousands of real human players did not get this memo since they don't stand a chance against these killers, time after time. Gotta be because they're a completely different type of humans from those that other people face! Those other people that are totally super good at the game but supposedly just can't win as killer. Which is not true for Tru3 either by the way, last time I checked he wins most of his matches too.
While I have followed some of the best players in this game across most major regions and can confidently say that on average there is little difference in the average competition they face (good killers 4k 90+% of their matches everywhere, including Korea where I am convinced the average level of play is at least slightly higher than elsewhere), I would if anything argue that Tru3 is more likely to face lesser competition than Otz. As far as I know, Tru3 is situated in the UK while Otz is in Spain. UK has its own servers, Spain gets routed to central EU servers in Germany most of the time. Russian, Eastern European and Middle-Eastern players also get routed to German servers, and believe me or not, players from those regions are some of the best in the world, and they don't regularly end up on UK servers because obviously they have a lower ping to Germany.
Again, all of this is just a tangential point not really relevant at all to the main argument, which is that provably (like, there's actual recorded proof, not sure what's there to even argue), good killer players can and do win most of their pub matches even at top MMR without camping and tunnelling, with every killer.
The point about Otz was that the last two times I watched him were two games of tunneling/camping each time. When he wants to win he will engage try hard mode. He will be the first to tell you that camping/slugging/tunneling accomplish that and are often necessary against good teams. You even agree on this point.
Yeah, we agree on this, and Otz definitely isn't some hyper-wholesome player that doesn't care about winning more than survivor fun or whatever, I have played against him multiple times myself (on both sides) and he absolutely does camp and tunnel and all that sometimes. I'm just pretty sure from the times I watched him that he's not a super "sweaty" hard camper or tunneller at all, that is not his usual playstyle, as opposed to lots of "tryhard" killers I face that camp and tunnel hard all the time every time from the second the round begins, and they have the thousands of -rep profile comments from frustrated survivor players to go with it, spanning years. Otz from what I've seen is more likely to use gimmicky builds and fun playstyles and not be super concerned about killing everyone all the time. And yet from what I know he still kills most survivors most of the time. Pretty sure I took kill rate stats from a few of his VODs for an argument on here sometime, and he averaged around 3 kills I think? And that was while using random perks in many of those matches if I remember correctly.
Either way, we agree that camping/tunnelling can at times even be downright necessary to win, and this is increasingly true the better and more coordinated the survivors are, where at the top end (high-skill 4-SWF on voice comms with good loadouts on a good map), I consider it a necessity even on Nurse and Blight if you want to consistently be able to compete and win. So I for one do want substantial killer buffs to go along with any substantial nerfs for camping and tunnelling. But yeah, that doesn't mean good players even at top MMR (the average match at which is still worlds removed from top end caliber) wouldn't still be mostly fine in most of their matches even without any compensatory buffs for such nerfs. I don't consider myself an elite killer player and yet I still win much more matches than I lose, despite regularly even going out of my way not to camp or tunnel. And given how often I win, I have to assume I'm at the MMR cap, at least on the killers I frequently play.
I think a more honest representation of DBD is when playing DBD it becomes more necessary to camp against a SWF team. The only problem with that is that Every game I played tonight with perhaps one exception was a 3 or 4 man swf. I don't want to play against that every game because I have to camp/slug/tunnel against it or I lose hard.
For one thing, I doubt you face 3/4-SWF that often, let alone them then also being super good and coordinated and whatnot. But if you actually are, and actually can't seen to manage to do anything against them without camp/slug/tunnel, may I suggest that you simply take the L and have your MMR decrease such that you are more likely to face groups that you can compete against without having to camp/slug/tunnel all that hard?
But I obviously agree that SWF is a notable balance issue. Actual 4-SWFs still make up a tiny portion of the overall player pool, last time we had stats on this solos and duos combined for like 80%, with solos alone being 50-60% of that, but I do think SWF is one of the biggest balance issues in the game, alongside certain maps and certain killers. I've wanted and advocated for SWF nerfs for years.
He didn't even follow his own rules on the AFK challenge.
-"How so?"
On the game map he ran to the survivors then AFK'd at a gen. On the Nurse game he didn't start afk and was chasing someone then went AFK mid chase while the survivor was cornered. He did not repeat those games and both of those games were not an "AFK" experience.
-"nor do I know whether Otz actually mostly plays at night"
Truetalent ends his show around noon my time. Otz sometimes plays till 5-6pm my time. There is no question that Otz plays later. The EU playerbase is 7-8 hours ahead. You sound like you understand the game. Watch one of true's videos when he has a TY tile like Freddy vs evening survivors. You will see the difference.
As for the Otz camping issue - I turn on his stream and he is playing LF. He downs someone in a terrible corner and immediately says : I don't want to make it obvious I am camping. Lol. To be fair he is doing a face camping thing today but he wasn't the last few times I watched him.
-"So I for one do want substantial killer buffs to go along with any substantial nerfs for camping and tunnelling"
Make it so survivor's cant tunnel gens and make it so the killer doesn't want to tunnel survivors out. The killer objective is too long and the survivor objective is too short. It's really that simple.
-"I doubt you face 3/4-SWF that often, let alone them then also being super good and coordinated and whatnot"
I understand that you are doubtful as there are a lot of people pushing a BS narrative. The last game I played last night was against a streamer in a 3 man SWF. I could hear her friends in discord talking to her. I was listening not watching to the stream to counterbalance the SWF. Are you telling me I was imagining the other two voices that were obviously in the same game?
And what about the games where I can see all four players on each other's friends list?
Do you think that two people on console wearing matching costumes/names are not friends? If they are in a game with 2 people on steam who are on each other's friends list that is a game with 4 people in a swf. It's not a 4 man SWF but it is still allows for good coordination.
You cannot deny my experiences. I am not one of those people who say every game is a SWF just because they play well. I scout every lobby. I usually don't play against SWF if they play with lots of items.
-"But I obviously agree that SWF is a notable balance issue. Actual 4-SWFs still make up a tiny portion of the overall"
The stats they posted were very misleading but the majority of players are in a SWF of some kind. Considering that was a time when it was easier to play in solo queue I think those stats have heavily shifted.