Crizpen
Crizpen
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@Entità said:
If, as you say, a neutral combination killer / map is much more likely than a combination killer / map unfavorable to the stealth survivor, then in most cases Distortion is a wasted perk, as it gives you a protection that you could get for free with the three ordinary mechanics (approach less than 40 meters, lock yourself in a locker or crouch behind a generator). You should therefore be glad that someone chooses Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, because while it is almost inevitable to be chased one or more times in every game and, therefore, Sprint Burst is always useful, on the contrary Distortion is situational, ie shows its usefulness when nobody of the three free remedies is possible, in fairly limited cases. I would understand if your challenge directly hit the new mechanics of lockers, free for all, while I sincerely do not take the sense of fighting a more effective Distortion in its function of ensuring, to those who want it, that is a minority of survivors, a stealth game . Reading the Aura of the survivors is not a basic mechanics: it is generated by a perk and by another perk can be countered (partially: 100% bonus remains, and is an important part of its attractiveness).Okay, you're obviously not seeing, or not wanting to see the distinction. So, let's go real slow:
1) A survivor is downed.
2) Remaining survivors can a: rush into 40 meters, b: hide in a locker, c: try to hide behind generator aura, d: run away from their location for 4 seconds before returning.In 3 of those 4 cases, the survivor isn't working on their generator, or all 4, if a side of the generator to hide their aura isn't available.
With Distortion, that's not the case. Lazy survivors aren't required to take any action to remain safe, and can gen rush to their heart's content.
What are the killer's choices?
Knowing what the survivor options are, he can a: blindly run around the map hoping to find someone else, or b: proxy camp to intercept the save, knowing he'll either ensure that kill, or pick up an additional survivor to chase.
Given these options, he's most likely to stay near the hook until he has a reason to leave.
@Entità said:
The killer leaves the hook because three other survivors can take advantage of it for a gen rush, sacrificing the hooked companion: the killer who wants 4k must get busy, cannot stay two minutes to scratch the balls near the first unfortunate who fell in their clutches. BBQ is a big incentive, I do not deny it, but I cannot accept the idea that the killers use it for the benefit of the survivors: the killers use it for their own profit, as it is right in a competitive game, not for philanthropic desire to ensure the adversaries' fun. I repeat, at least 85% of the killer I meet in rank 1 use BBQ and A Nurse's Calling or at least one of the two, while not even 30% of the survivors would choose Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, Decisive Strike and so on. I think your fears are decidedly excessive, in light of the clear preference of the survivors for a provocative gamestyle towards the killer.Obviously, the killer doesn't run BBQ for the survivors' benefit, but that doesn't mean the perk doesn't help the game health, or provide the killer with the incentive to do something survivors beg for.
But you want more perks to counter play against other players. Okay, I want a perk that survivors can't self care, or they're always exhausted. That's fair, right? Those are powerful survivor perks that 99% of rank 1 survivors run. So, as the killer, I should have perks to counter yours. Why aren't those introduced to the game? Oh... right... because a perk shouldn't replace having a challenge in the game.
You want to go full immersive, fine. But immersed survivors aren't the only survivors who get locker changes and Distortion. And, no, I don't expect it will replace Sprint Burst / Lithe / BL / DH, or DS, it'll be used in combination with them.
I'm just saying, every thread I see on here with survivors bitching a blue streak about being camped and tunneled, I'm going to point to this perk as the reason why.
Will every killer do it? Of course not. But every killer will have less reason to stray far from the hook, and it won't be their fault - it'll be the survivors running Distortion, and the Dev's adding the locker changes. Enjoy it.
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Of course, there are times when the RNG does not work in your favor, when you get a particular killer on a particular map that isn’t favorable to you, but the opposite is also true, and a particular killer on a map which is neither favorable nor unfavorable is most likely.Entità said:@Crizpen @Dabrownman1812 You do real examples, but not very pertinent: the point is not to heal in the Trapper's terror radius in Coldwind Farm, the problem is to cure yourself with the Pig crouched in Lery or with the Wraith in The Game or with Myers in Backwater, to say. The problem is not to be seen with BBQ in the first minute of the game, the problem is not having any hope when you face Hillbilly or the Nurse in Shelton Wood, who has just sacrificed the last of your companions at the opposite end of the map. These are the cases in which stealth can save your life, it is in these circumstances that you need a Distortion worthy of the role. I repeat, they invented Sole Survivor, but it does not work, and nobody uses it: if Distortion protects you in the first minutes of play, when you do not need it, because the killer can choose other targets, because, if targeted, you can count on the rescue of others, but abandons you in the extreme need, it will not make a lot of career in the inventory of players, especially those who play alone, without parties and no friends ready to risk everything for you (yes, they're a race in extinction, but still some unfortunate solitary survivors exist...).
You say the truth, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard and Lithe are very powerful perks for the survivors, and a good majority of players use them, but not me: I do not find any pleasure in mocking the killer, I look for emotional identification, so constant tension, an electrifying challenge for survival, and mocking those who want to quarter you from behind a pallet is not very consistent with the atmosphere of absolute panic that anyone would feel if that situation were real. And we come to your fear that the killer no longer sees any Aura and stays near the hooked guy: as you have recognized, there are other perks of fashion, the stealth style is clearly minority, and there is no risk that everyone uses it, destroying BBQ (without prejudice to the gain of 100% extra blood points, of course): people have fun with the loops, with the flashlights, teabagging the killer whenever a juke is successful, and have no slot to waste with Distortion. In addition, the game was born without BBQ and worked for long months without the imperative need to introduce "spells" to find the prey: you cannot claim that the killer is doomed to defeat if one or two players occasionally shield their Aura reading ability.
Finally, I agree with the killer buffs: I do not like facing an insipid enemy, or being tasteless myself when I impersonate him. Above all, I detest the useless perks: every perk must be a winning card, a special resource that gives powerful advantages to those who choose to invest in it, and this is especially true for those who, with four perks, must deal with sixteen. You will never see me as opposed to the killer perks empowering, unless they give the certainty of victory, destroying the challenge.
To say a powerful perk needs a buff for those specific situations is hardly a good reason. How could it be limited to only those killer/map combinations you find frustrating, and not when it would only be exploited to god status in the vast majority of map/killer combinations.
Of course, the game didn’t have BBQ at release, but it’s addition was good for the game health. It’s good for the killer to have reasons to leave the hook. Even if it means a different survivor gets chased. Even if that survivor is you.
All over these forums are complaints about killers tunneling and camping, and there is one killer perk which specifically discourages that: BBQ and Chili. Why then add locker changes and Distortion which directly counter it?
I’ve asked the question here many times and the best response I have gotten is that 1 survivor shouldn’t be targeted because another messed up. As if this weren’t a team game for survivors.
I don’t want to camp, or proxy camp, as a killer, but what the Dev’s are giving us will only increase the likelihood that it will happen, and you’re suggesting making that worse.
Do killers have to have BBQ? Of course not, and it will be used less with the upcoming changes in favor of perks unaffected by Distortion. But will the game be more enjoyable for survivors? Probably not if you’re hanging on your first hook until you die because the other survivors won’t risk a proxy camp. Probably not if you’re saved off the hook and the killer is still close enough to tunnel you down.
I can understand giving survivors a way to counter Nurse’s, even if they don’t know or realize they’re within range of setting it off. BBQ, though, is an outstanding perk that not only assists the killer, but does exactly what survivors beg for: it gets the killer away from the hook. There’s no good reason for it to be countered any more than it already is since the aura only displays on far away survivors to begin with.
While the changes coming and those you propose might be good for you in specific situations, they aren’t good for overall game health. They aren’t good to keep people enjoying and continuing to play the game. -
Originally, I had planned to pull from a lot of other Dev streams in making that short video, before I realized I didn't need to.
But it's not the first time they've told us that if we want to be competitive in a competitive game, we should only play Nurse and Billy.
As far as "designed to be fun and to be fun to play against," it's a garbage line. When I play survivor (and I do more often than killer these days), I don't want Tinkerbell to float around the map being "fierce;" that's not why I picked up a horror game. That isn't fun to play against, and unless slamming your head against the desk is how you get your kicks, it certainly isn't fun to play.
I repeatedly flashed the "Killer Objectives" on the screen to try to drive that point home. The killer's job is to stop the survivors, and somehow they think it's a good idea to introduce and BRAG about a killer who can't do that?
It really seems like Dead by Daylight is going the way of so many other successful games before. If it runs long enough, they tend to make it a different game than the one their customers bought and loved. They typically don't last for long after that, sadly.
Even for the survivors who get their kicks bullying the killers, picking on Legion is like trolling the special-ed kids: you can't really take pride in it.
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@Entità said:
@Dabrownman1812 said:
Still an invalid point, horrible math for a 4v1. It's not a simple addition. You see, the killer can still only go up to and chase 1 survivor. So it still forces a 1v1 chase at most and allows the other 2 survivors to save or do gens. You're calculating use vs practicality and impact on the game.Also for smart survivors. They know the map already and get in range or fake bbq reading by mindgaming the aura reading. bbq has counters already before distortion, and not all of the distortions will go off at the same time which you math doesn't calculate. The survivor on the hook will keep the 3 stacks.
You complain about bbq when many still stealth around it. Etc. Not only that, but some maps are since you wanna do the math, too big to look for survivors without aura reading because not every killer can zoom n search. Did you do the math on how fast gens get done? Lol. About 80 seconds at base and add 10 seconds if gen tapping with ruin. If a survivor is competent and keeps a killer busy for even 2 minutes, then there's the hook time before the travel to a survivor with a bbq reading. What does that make? Makes 3 gens done, 1 killer objective done (3 hooks per survivor so 12 objectives) and 3 survivor objectives done (survivors have to do 5 gens and 1 door so that's half done, 3 left).
Aura reading is there simply because at base, time isn't on the killers side. I'm a survivor main saying this, and I stil stealth bbq, still stealth nurses. Survivors aren't randomly having their auras read.
You are forgetting that information is power, that intelligence is the beating heart of every war: you reduce the Auras shown by BBQ to only one, because only one is the survivor you can chase ... It's not like that at all. Seeing all the distant Auras means mastering the map, and knowingly choosing where to hunt: you instantly discover if someone approaches a hex totem, you know if someone is healing or repairing in collaboration (and you make a banquet, if your name is Leatherface) , you realize the strategies of maneuver of your opponents, you can calculate the probabilities that a survivor, after searching a Chest, go to the generator X or Y (which you see, too), in short, you have an exact photograph of the enemy's moves. If all this really were not useful, then the perk would be: "When you hook a survivor, you see the Aura of a random companion over 40 meters", since it is only one that you can follow, right? I don't want BBQ or A Nurse's Calling or Bitter Murmur or other killer detection perks are nerfed, which means a Christmas gift for all survivors: I simply want the freedom to buy a good shield, paying a fair price. Sole Survivor is not a good shield (not only bad, but also broken mechanic: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28469/sole-survivor-vs-bbq-chilli ), and nobody uses it: I hope Distortion won't share the same destiny, to be left on the shelves...
Let's speak concretely. What do you find unbalanced in my proposal (the three options are obviously alternatives, with preference for one of the first two)?
1) the largest number of tokens (4/5/6, instead of 3);
2) the reloadability of tokens (the @Robb_Stark proposal can be integrated as a recharge mode, for example: if you want to recover a token, then make the equivalent of a generator);
3) the ability to activate the shield on request.The size of the maps (the swamps have been drastically reduced), the gen rush, the ease of destroying Ruin are all interesting and reasonable speeches, but you cannot mix all the game mechanics in a thread about a single, new stealth perk, however still experimental, under verification and settling (PTB means this: try and let us know your feedback).
There are very few killer perks which cannot be countered, even prior to Distortion. Among those that can be are both Nurse's Calling (don't heal in the terror radius or most killers) and BBQ (hide behind a generator, or rush within 40 meters when someone goes down), which also happen to be two of the most powerful perks killers get.
By comparison, would it be balanced for killers to have a perk that stops ALL exhaustion perks within their terror radius? Of course not. It would destroy Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing and Lithe, making some of the most powerful survivor perks useless.
Furthermore, countering BBQ in particular is a distinctly bad idea. Most of the time, when hooking a survivor, you can see at least one other across the map. Hooking a new survivor for another stack, as well as having a general idea of where to find that survivor is a lot of incentive to leave the hook. Conversely, survivors generally (and should) assume the killer is running BBQ, and have at least a 40 meter head start on escaping before he gets there. They know where the killer is coming from, and SWF groups definitely inform each other where the killer is headed to give that survivor a better chance of escaping.
On the other hand, if the hook is made and no auras are revealed, there are several possibilities. Just as likely as any, and safer to combat, is that there are survivors within 40 meters, close enough to make a quick hook save. So why would the killer leave? Oh course, he wouldn't. Complaints about proxy camping go up, complaints about tunneling when the hook save is made with the killer nearby go up... no one is having as much fun.
Now, Distortion isn't being added in isolation either, it's also coming with locker changes which can be used in addition to block auras. See someone go down - head for a locker. While it should be a perk, or added to Distortion, it's not.
Having a 3-token cap hardly makes the perk weak. In your average match, the killer might see 3 auras from Nurse's, since people already know not to heal within the terror radius, much less 3 from a specific survivor. And, as for BBQ, it would require hooking 3 other survivors more than 40 meters away, which again, easily countered if you're concerned about your aura showing. Meaning, it will last all, or nearly all of the match if you're prioritizing hiding your aura over getting those extra 30 seconds on the generator when you may be shown. So no, there isn't a purpose in increasing the stacks when it's already entirely too powerful as it stands. All increasing the number of stacks, or allowing you to gain more stacks, will do is encourage survivors to play lazy, not smart.
Activating the "shield on request" is also fairly absurd, for much the same reasons. In effect, you can do this already by moving toward the down'ed player when you see them drop, saving your stack for later in the match. Deciding you're in a safe location to allow the aura to display, and then hiding it when you're in more danger would hand entirely too much power to the survivors.
But let's take the game pre-DLC as the base. According to the dev's roughly half of all survivors escape every match. That isn't true against specific killers, like Truetalent, Monto, TydeTyme, etc... but according to their numbers, it's about the average. In the DLC, survivors are getting this great new perk. They're also getting a nifty perk for sabo teams to utilize, and there isn't a single thing any killer can do to counter any of them.
Killers aren't so lucky. Iron Maiden is crap on anyone except Doctor, Mad Grit isn't worth running, Discordance might be somewhat viable on some builds, but is easily countered by survivors working on different generators. And, best of all, we get a killer who can't kill.
So, exactly how is survivors getting a great perk to help them survive completing their objectives, while killers don't, unbalanced for survivors?
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@HatCreature said:
@PhantomMask20763 said:
@Crizpen said:
The problem I see with Freddy is that he only becomes a competitive killer with the use of Class Photo and Blue Dress.Yeah, I know people utilize blocks to reduce the transition time, but I view that as trying to reduce his weakness, which is only effective to a point. IMO, it’s better to play to his strengths, and that’s putting people to sleep and keeping them there.
To put survivors to sleep: Class Photo. Keeping them there: Green Dress.
As often as not, I’m not chasing the first survivor I find, or the second: I’m forcing them to waste time trying to get out of the dream world either by running around to find another survivor or doing gens at half speed.
Absolutely, they’ll get out before I hook the first survivor I decide to chase, but then BBQ tells me where to find them again. It stops, or severely slows their ability to complete objectives while I, as an unremarkable killer, have the time to get my hooks and kills.
My last three Freddy games were (before BBQ/Pudding): 32k points, 32k points, 31.7k points. And the last, I carried the last survivor to the hatch and dropped them off.
That said, it was fun while it lasted. Distortion and lockers completely wreck the build to the point of being laughable. If even half the survivors are running it, and I expect they will, I won’t be able to build the early game momentum to effectively slow down the match.
Whatever the changes to Freddy, his strength will have to be something other than aura reading.
Yeah, distortion will hurt Freddy the most of all the killers. Same with the locker changes, now survivors can just afk in lockers and wait for their teamates to rescue them, hopefully not all these changes make it to live
Well hopefully everyone won't have Distortion when you play Freddy and we don't know if their tokens will just constantly be taken away when they are out oif your terror radius or if it's every time they leave your tettor radius. If it's the former then it's not a big deal but if it's latter then yeet, yeah it'll hurt him the most.
Even if they don't have Distortion, if they aren't being chased, any SWF will just jump in a locker until someone else gets there to wake them up.
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Not really. The dev’s have said the same thing.CornChip said: -
The problem I see with Freddy is that he only becomes a competitive killer with the use of Class Photo and Blue Dress.
Yeah, I know people utilize blocks to reduce the transition time, but I view that as trying to reduce his weakness, which is only effective to a point. IMO, it’s better to play to his strengths, and that’s putting people to sleep and keeping them there.
To put survivors to sleep: Class Photo. Keeping them there: Green Dress.
As often as not, I’m not chasing the first survivor I find, or the second: I’m forcing them to waste time trying to get out of the dream world either by running around to find another survivor or doing gens at half speed.
Absolutely, they’ll get out before I hook the first survivor I decide to chase, but then BBQ tells me where to find them again. It stops, or severely slows their ability to complete objectives while I, as an unremarkable killer, have the time to get my hooks and kills.
My last three Freddy games were (before BBQ/Pudding): 32k points, 32k points, 31.7k points. And the last, I carried the last survivor to the hatch and dropped them off.
That said, it was fun while it lasted. Distortion and lockers completely wreck the build to the point of being laughable. If even half the survivors are running it, and I expect they will, I won’t be able to build the early game momentum to effectively slow down the match.
Whatever the changes to Freddy, his strength will have to be something other than aura reading. -
The problem with people who taunt the killer is that they’re unafraid of them. Which is stupid in a horror game. But, that’s why I prefer Spirit, Nurse and Billy.
But, as was pointed out, these are usually the same people who DC when they’re caught, get a map they don’t like, or face a killer they can’t bully. That’s free points for me, and a harder match for the rest of their team. -
I would generally disagree that he gets looped as hard as other killers.mistar_z said:People talk about how he's like down there with Nightmare and Legion. He's biggest known weakness is that he has zero ability to map pressure or slow down the game but his ability to actually catch the survivors is still too weak. Leading him to get looped just as hard as any other killer.
In the first place, his ability to break pallets quickly isn’t to be scoffed at. Like Billy, he doesn’t have to wait until he’s at the pallet to start breaking it, like other killers do.
Second, he only has to catch a survivor once to down them. Of course, M1 is better if they’re breaking for a window, but more generally speaking, he can one-shot fairly easily.
Third, he does have base killer movement speed, unlike so many others.
I am not saying he’s a top tier killer, but he’s far from Legion and Freddy. Certainly Freddy can’t fight back against a Borrowed Time hook save, yet Leatherface can not only down the saving player, but burn through Borrowed Time by colliding with the hook and forcing the tantrum. And without Borrowed Time, hook saves within his terror radius are a farming mission at best.
A lot of killers play him defensively, and certainly he’s tremendous at defense, but I find him the most terrifying when he builds momentum downing one survivor after the next. Camping is easy to fight against by simply completing the generators, a chainsaw reving behind you, with a 45 degree kill zone is far less so.
If I were to change one thing about him, it’d be how silly he looks running around. I mean really, he’s almost on tip toes. -
To each their own. Third Seal is one of those perks I very rarely run anyway. Not because it’s a totem based perk, but because I don’t care for slugging in general. But, we all have our own play styles.
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It depends on your play style, but you’ve essentially made a slug build there, with Knock Out and Nurse’s Calling.
There are a few reasons I don’t recommend it. First of all, you get fewer points even if you do manage to slug and kill all four survivors. Hooking them multiple times will do far more for your points and progression than slugging.
Second, Knock Out isn’t effective against SWF groups who can tell each other where they are. This ends up working against you if you can’t keep track of your slugs as they crawl away (Deerstalker).
What I generally recommend are perks that play to Hag’s strengths, which are her ability to transport around the map and small terror radius. You have M&A, which is great for her, but I would swap Knock Out with Make Your Choice (Pig perk). Whenever they set off a trap after a hook save, you have at least one easy one-hit down. Besides that, 60 seconds is a heck of a long time to be exposed for every hook save.
Next, while Save the Best for Last is really nice at times, the Hag’s ability to port to a tripped trap and immediately strike the survivor make the perk less effective on her than others. This is especially true if you trap loops and can herd survivors into them. Instead, I would recommend something to slow down the pace of the game. Ruin is usually the strongest, which Hag can protect more than most by trapping the totem. But even Thana or even Sloppy Butcher would be better than nothing. It can be argued that Knock Out would slow down the pace as survivors run around the map trying to find the down’ed survivor, but again, ineffective against SWF.
Last up, Nurse’s Calling is really good on the Hag, particularly with M&A and her tiny terror radius. If you’re only looking for winning matches, it’s a fine perk to stick with, for now. If you’re looking to build points, I’d swap it with BBQ and Chili.
The reason I said, “for now,” is because Nurse’s is getting nerfed by the addition of Distortion, the DLC perk which hides a survivor’s aura three times per match. What that means for Nurse’s is, instead of you seeing them healing, they see a stack of Distortion getting burned and know you’re close, even without a heartbeat cue.
BBQ will also be affected, but less so than Nurse’s, as BBQ can potentially burn a stack off three survivors at once.
Hope that perspective helps. Good hunting.
Edit: with your currently available perks, I’d change STBFL with Devour Hope, and Knock Out for Ruin.
I understand not wanting to rely on totems, but again, Hag can defend them reasonably well. But, ultimately, I would strive for a Ruin, BBQ, MYC, M&A build. -
@Boss said:
Yay! An idea of mine that isn't called #########! \o/It's #########.
Granted, Hex totems are easy enough to find on most maps, but the looking slows the game down. So, even if it is cleansed, you get the added benefit of (usually) multiple survivors running around the map instead of completing objectives.
Altering Third Seal to be erased upon the completing of generators does the opposite, encouraging survivors to complete objectives faster. This would be especially problematic with a debuff like Third Seal, since it prioritizes the killer hitting, but not necessarily downing, as many survivors between gens as possible. Meaning, the counter is gen rushing as much as possible.
Because Third Seal is a slug build tool, the killer isn't focused on completing his objectives: hooking and killing, until all or most of the survivors are blind and/or on the ground, but the survivors have even more incentive to complete theirs. It becomes a self-defeating perk. In the worst case, the killer is running around frantically trying to kick generators and get a single hit on each survivor that he accomplishes nothing more than being bullied by the survivors.
The ideal would be closer to the Pig, where survivors are forced to move off their objective to cure themselves of a status effect. This is the case with totems, even if they are relatively easy to find. Particularly true if you're also running Thrill of the Hunt and better able to defend your totem.
I don't mean to poopoo your idea, but I think in practice, you'd be even more frustrated than you are with totems.
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@Entità said:
The killer's power should basically match that of four efficient survivors, and so a killer perk should have four times the strength of the opposing perks of the survivors, meaning that all four survivors must equip a given perk to neutralize that of the killer.If we analyze BBQ and Chili, we notice that it offers up to a maximum of 2 * 4 * 3 = 24 Aura readings (provided that each survivor is hooked twice before someone dies and, at each hook, the killer sees the Aura of the other three people), plus 3 other Aura-readings at the first survivor's sacrifice, 2 at the second survivor's sacrifice and 1 at the third survivor's sacrifice; total: 24 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 30 Aura-readings of the survivors, in optimal conditions, the best possible. All this without considering, of course, A Nurse Calling, Iron Maiden (how many times are the lockers used in a game? And the reading of the Aura in such cases is added to the Exposed status...), Bitter Murmur, Rancor and some add-ons (like Wraith's All-Seing or Shape's Reflective Fragment, Glass Fragment, Mirror Shard, Vanity Mirror), and probably other things I'm forgetting right now.
Well, if all four survivors used Distortion, each would have 3 protections from the reading of their Auras, that is 3 * 4 = 12 shields, and 12 is equal to 2/5 of 30 (without considering the other Aura-reading abilities, listed above). Evidently, this is an absolutely weak, seriously insufficient perk. I do not claim that the initial tokens for any survivor using Distortion are 7.5 (7.5 * 4 = 30), since the killer rarely gets 30 Aura readings in a single game with BBQ, however I find it absolutely reasonable and balanced that Distortion is reworked in one of the following ways:
1) tokens are 4/5/6;
2) tokens can be recharged with some simple actions;
3) if solutions 1) and 2) are rejected, at least the survivor can decide, at their sole discretion, when to activate the shield of Distortion and when instead let the killer see their Aura to save tokens.As it is currently, Distortion is decidedly unfair, and not to be detected is the first and foremost target of every survivor. @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits Please, fix it!
This is so utterly wrong, it's hard to know where to begin. At current, there are two ways to block BBQ - the most commonly run Killer perk - to rush within 40 yards, or to hide behind a generator's aura.
Adding Distortion, along with the locker changes, means a severe nerf to every killer except Legion and the Doctor: both of whom can quickly and effectively burn through the stacks.
So, a Trapper, for example, will need to find and hook 3 survivors, without the benefit of BBQ or Nurse's, before - maybe - they can hook someone who didn't rush within 40 meters, hide in a locker, or hide behind a generator. That's the vast majority of the match burned through by a single perk.
What is the Trapper to do? If he hooks a survivor and sees no aura readings, his best play is to start looking within 40 meters of - or "proxy camping" - the hook.
And you think adding more stacks will do something good for survivor game play? If you enjoy camping and tunneling, perhaps.
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@Avariku said:
personally I think you're making a lot of assumption about what other players will be using... I dont think I run a very common build anyway so I might be wrong.but I just don't see it having as drastic of an affect as you seem to think it will. but only time will tell.
You're absolutely right, I am assuming. But it can't be ignored how powerful Distortion is, nor the changes to lockers.
Just like Self Care, and exhaustion perks, Distortion will be one run by many, if not most people. If the killer downs a survivor near me, great, I don't have to burn a Distortion stack. Downed while I'm close to a locker, I don't burn a stack. Will it be possible to go entire games without revealing your location to the killer? Absolutely.
My point is that this is a game-altering perk, because it cuts HARD into the two of the most powerful killer perks, and there will be changes in killer behavior as a result.
It's a perk that encourages the killer to stay near the hook, and that's going to have an effect. Maybe it'll mean killers using Whispers more than BBQ or Nurse's Calling, or maybe it'll mean more proxy camping and tunneling, or more killers running NOED when BBQ is more likely to proc. Whatever it changes, it'll change something, and when I'm playing survivor, I'm not going to like it.
I see it as the dev's saying: here's a perk, and if you use it too widely, all the things you complain about are going to get worse.
Think of it in terms of DS: it's a great perk, but if killers get repeated games with 3 or 4 survivors running it, they're going to swap to slug builds. Then, a great and powerful perk turns into survivors having a rotten time, crawling on the floor, instead of playing the game. It isn't as fun for the killer, and it certainly isn't as fun for the survivors.
For those reasons, I would recommend it being changed to not effect BBQ, because it's one of few perks killers get which encourages them not to camp, not to tunnel, and spread their attention around to all the survivors. Which, if I read these forums correctly, is what survivors want. Countering it with both lockers and a perk will serve no good purpose, as far as survivor game play is concerned. You'll either see a lot more threads complaining about camping, or a lot more threads complaining about all the doctor games destroying the perk.
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@Science_Guy said:
You seem to be forgetting that Distortion only works a measly 3 times. Which means towards the end of the game, when finding survivors might actually be a challenge, it's useless.I just want to be clear: you're okay with a perk that encourages killers to stay near hooked survivors countering one that encourages them to leave the hook and chase someone else?
You say "a measly three times," but even with BBQ and Chili, how many games have you had where you've completed all or nearly all the gens before the third hook? That will become more common with the addition of this perk. So, okay, the killer is handicap through the early and mid game, he better create builds that make him stronger in the end game: NOED, Blood Warden, Remember Me, Fire Up.
And yet, I hear so many complaints about camping, tunneling and NOED, and here's a perk which encourages all three.
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@Countfunkular said:
I'm sorry but can someone please explain to me why it is some people still want shape-shifting killers. Seriously, I don't get it why would you want a particular killer that's main Power is useless if they're dealing with a group of Survive with friends.No I won't lie the concept is pretty cool but the execution is flawed in more ways than one.
1. You have to have another power on top of already being able to shape-shift.
2. How in God's name would you control your power to change into another Survivor of your choice.
3. Surprise won't mean much once they figure out what you are.I'm sorry but I don't get it...care to explain
To a degree, this already exists in the game, just without the "shape-shifting" cosmetic.
Myers at T1 is very slow, but has a very small terror radius. As he Tiers up, the terror radius, speed, and killing power all increase. The only difference between this and the possible execution of a shape-shifting killer is that Myers doesn't change the way he looks, aside from lifting his knife up into the air.
The Doctor moves between "stances" regularly, where he can shock in one stance and hit in the other. Again, all he's missing is a change in his cosmetic to be a shape-shifting killer.
The Pig can crouch and obtain stealth, or stand for increased speed and killing. Yet again, only missing a change in cosmetic between two distinct characteristics.
There are others, but hopefully you get the idea. Having a character with multiple abilities, and characteristics, is hardly unheard of in DBD. Furthermore, the game engine is already primed for a killer who can take on the appearance of a survivor.
Think about the Doctor and the Spirit: it doesn't matter which cosmetic option you chose, when the husk is left behind, or the false doctors appear in front of a survivor, they match the actual killer's cosmetics. Taken in reverse, it's certainly not unthinkable that a killer could take on the appearance of a survivor on the map, or to take on that appearance after he's killed a survivor. Which, based on the small reveal of the killer so far, I don't think is what is coming up, but it's certainly doable.
I actually think it's a really neat idea to add some real fear back into the game. If you're working on a gen and see Claudette running up, do you stay on the gen and vulnerable to her, or do you run away and look silly when she turns out to be another survivor? Never mind when people run 4 pizza-boy Dwight's in a match, and all the sudden there's a fifth of you! Who's the real killer?
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@MegMain98 said:
@Crizpen said:
@MegMain98 said:
@Ryuhi said:
You are both missing the thing I was focusing on, which is when tunneling is done as a BAD strategy. I understand that it can have merits in a lot of cases (some killers base kits practically focus on it, like bing bong boi here) but there are many times where killers will put themselves in an absurdly disadvantageous position just to make a single survivor's game awful. I'm talking survivors coming out of games with a 0/700/0/8000 point spread because the killer refuses to go after anyone else, defend gens, etc. It sounds hyperbolic, but it happens a lot, even at red ranks.I understand why a lot of killers get defensive about this, because of the overwhelming survivor mentality of "I need to survive every single game behavior plz," but there's definitely a middle ground to be had. The best games are always ones where the post game chat isnt full of salt from either side, but people offering advice and complimenting good plays.
This is exactly the kind of games that SHOULD be happening. There is a reason that some survivors are salty in the post game chat. The 0/700/0/8000 spread of points is the WORST as a survivor.
Yes, tunneling is a viable strategy but when the killer CONTINUOUSLY camps the hook with 4 or 5 gens left and ONLY goes after that one survivor, it’s just bad gameplay...making one survivors game awful for a stupid reason (maybe they have gotten all the trophies and the killer feels like they have something to prove, being a Twitcch streamer, bringing in a flashlight, etc...) is just unsportsmanlike. All survivor complains are not from pure salt due to having entitlement but maybe JUST MAYBE some killers actuallu have bad gameplay that results in a 0K/1K from making one survivors game brutal for no reason. It’s much more enjoyable when the killer is after ALL survivors.
This would be like saying survivors should only 33% a gen before running off to a fresh one. It's more fun for the killer if you waste time instead of focusing on completing your objectives.
But, survivors aren't there to make sure the killer has fun, and the killer isn't there to make sure the survivors do. But survivors have the advantage in that if they aren't having fun, and the die quickly, they can join a new game; killers, on the other hand, stay until the last survivor is dead or escapes.
You might not like that a killer capitalizes on the fact that you're injured, or dead on hook, where another survivor isn't, but he doesn't particularly like when you run back to complete a nearly finished generator instead of starting a new one. And yet, I don't see a lot of killer mains jumping on the forums to complain about survivors completing generators. After all, that's what survivors are supposed to do: try to survive. By the same token, "killer" isn't just a fancy title: they're meant to kill you.
If they aren't exploiting, lag switching, hacking or otherwise cheating, take your lumps and join a new lobby when you die.
Yet when the killer gets a 1K due to tunneling and the survivor being good at looping the killer and the killer REFUSES to change targets it becomes an issue right? I’ve literally ran some boosted killers around for five gens proceeded by a fat facecamp. It’s the killers only option to camp when they have no kills and all the gens are left but they got to that point due to poor gen control, tunneling, and not changing targets. That’s kind of tunneling I’m talking around. Then people wanna throw around that killers need a MASSIVE buff which in all reality it is because some players just play like foreheads and extremely boosted. Sure some killers (Freddy and Leatherface come to mind) need some reworks, but if you’re bad with Billy and Myers and can’t get ONE kill even when tunneling it reflects on the killer, not survivor.
A lot of times it is your own teammates that screw you over due to farming you on the hook and the killer being around then you are the one who gets screwed over. I can’t really blame the killer but when I am the killer and I notice survivors getting farmed I won’t ONLY tunnel them especially if they are good at loops or non-toxic. I’ll instead go after the farmer, but that’s just me.
In the example you cite: the killer follows a single survivor through the whole match, and then face camps them for the 1k, the killer doesn't pip. A single hook, along with the at hook penalty, isn't enough to pip.
I'm not sure I'd describe that as "tunneling," or the more accurate "focused fire," so much as stubbornness and stupidity.
That's not a good killer for several reasons, but those killers are extremely rare at any decent rank. They'll learn, hopefully, or get too frustrated and quit. When it's happened when I've played as survivor, we were able to open the doors and body-block for the exit. It doesn't always turn out that way, but assuming it isn't a Hillbilly or Leatherface, it's very doable.
But then, I come across all sorts of bad survivors too. Particularly those who DC as soon as they hear my nurse blink for the first time, or the first time they're down'ed, or as soon as we land in the swamp, and leave the rest of the survivors at a handicap. Or, as you point out, go for a save while the killer is still there. Or sandbag other survivors to escape a chase, or train their team to divert attention from themselves... I'll never stop being amazed when I'm called a "camper," when I catch a survivor going for a save and they loop me around the hooked survivor instead of pulling me away. Or a "camper" when they complete 4 gens on one side of the map and leave me with a gen trifecta that's fast and easy to patrol.
My point is, bad players exist on both sides, and either side can ruin a match for you as a survivor. In your example, sure, I can see that the match was terrible for the one survivor who was chased the entire match before being face camped. The other three got their gens and got out. Not a great match, but you move on to the next. On the other hand, a survivor who DC's on his team, or sandbags them, or trains them, or simply kills themselves on the hook... that hurts all the remaining survivors far more than the killer chasing a single person. And quitting is contagious. As often as not when one survivor DC's at the start, another will as well, and I'm left either feeling like a dick for killing the remaining two or letting them farm the gens and escape.
I'm not saying the killer you describe isn't a problem, and maybe I'm just super lucky to hardly ever come across them, but in my experience there are a lot of other things to be upset about before that rare killer in the purple / red ranks that acts like that.
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What it really comes down to is:
- You choose to play this game.
- With it available on multiple platforms, you chose to play it on console.
- There are both benefits and hindrances to playing on one platform compared to another. (And before you say there is no downside to playing on PC: I spent a hell of a lot more on my machine than you did on your console, and playing a game on PC stops me from doing other tasks on it. Basically, all the reasons you didn't pick it up on Steam).
- There are 13, soon to be 14, available killers for you to choose from, and another 13 survivors. You're wanting to play 1 in particular, despite knowing the complications with playing her with a controller instead of a mouse.
- It isn't the job of the dev's to alter game mechanics to accommodate your every choice. Hell, if a player is deaf in one ear, would it be the job of the devs to create a different visual layout so they can always know what direction every sound is coming from? Of course not: it would be ridiculous to expect game designers to have to accommodate for every possible handicap a player may come to the game with, and yet you're asking them to accommodate the informed choices you made?
I don't know, when you look at it in that light, it sounds pretty selfish to ask the dev's to bend over backward for you, when it's entirely your decision what platform to play on, and which character to play.
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@akbays35 said:
@Attackfrog said:
powerbats said:@Attackfrog said:
Of all the killers, I do worst with huntress. I even do better with freddy.
It just seems like I can't even find survivors with her, and when I do, they are able to juke and dodge my hatchets.
Maybe I just suck with her.
She just takes practice is all, Freddy you can fire and forget her you need to practice with her. You can learn some good techniques in kyf with her.
That makes sense. I enjoy all the killers, but for some reason, her learning curve just gets me.
Nurse and spirit were so hard at first but are getting so much better and rewarding....but huntress...idk. She's just not my jam I think...but to be fair, I haven't put forth a lot of effort to learn and improve with her.
the biggest problem with huntress is the maps. you're pretty much having to play as a slow no power killer in lery's, the game, and somewhat in haddonfield. you can improve it's mostly about leading shots and learning where hatchets can hit, sometimes theres weird hitboxes on objects and you have to fling the hatchets over them more than you'd think.
The maps are an issue with every killer. Hillbilly, for example, is an extremely good killer, but has problems in Lery's, the Game, etc.
That some maps work better for some killers than for others, I don't believe, is a reason any particular killer needs a buff to be competitive in every map.
Second, the Huntress is very well balanced in her abilities. Note: I'm not saying she's necessarily balanced against other killers, or survivors, but in her own strengths and weaknesses. She runs slower than most killers, that's true, but she's the only one who can harm survivors from clear across the map. She has a large, and directional hum, but that is also meant to balance against her ranged attack.
It would be silly, for example, for you to be able to close within 25 meters of a survivor and hatchet them without them having any clue you're there.
If we were talking about a baseline Huntress, with no addons or offerings, there may be a good case to be made that she needs a buff. Yet, she has some extremely powerful addons. Iridescent Head, of course, is one of the most powerful add-on's in the game, allowing Huntress to one-hit down at a huge range. But that's hardly her only powerful addon. Even the common Berus Toxin causes exhaustion, preventing survivors from using Dead Hard, Balanced Landing or Lithe during a chase. Couple that with Yew Seed Concoction, which causes Hindered, and she can end chases pretty darn quickly, without ever having to be within melee range.
Huntress isn't weak - she's largely considered in the top 5 for killers - so suggesting the dev's devote significant resources to strengthen her, rather than looking at the 13th worst killer, or 12th, is kinda silly, IMO.
That isn't to say that she couldn't use a buff to make her more competitive compared to the top 4 killers: I personally think 6 hatchets should be her base, with a 115% run speed. However, in the larger picture, utilizing limited resources to make a strong killer stronger, rather than the weak killers competitive, seems a bit backward to me.
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@MegMain98 said:
@Ryuhi said:
You are both missing the thing I was focusing on, which is when tunneling is done as a BAD strategy. I understand that it can have merits in a lot of cases (some killers base kits practically focus on it, like bing bong boi here) but there are many times where killers will put themselves in an absurdly disadvantageous position just to make a single survivor's game awful. I'm talking survivors coming out of games with a 0/700/0/8000 point spread because the killer refuses to go after anyone else, defend gens, etc. It sounds hyperbolic, but it happens a lot, even at red ranks.I understand why a lot of killers get defensive about this, because of the overwhelming survivor mentality of "I need to survive every single game behavior plz," but there's definitely a middle ground to be had. The best games are always ones where the post game chat isnt full of salt from either side, but people offering advice and complimenting good plays.
This is exactly the kind of games that SHOULD be happening. There is a reason that some survivors are salty in the post game chat. The 0/700/0/8000 spread of points is the WORST as a survivor.
Yes, tunneling is a viable strategy but when the killer CONTINUOUSLY camps the hook with 4 or 5 gens left and ONLY goes after that one survivor, it’s just bad gameplay...making one survivors game awful for a stupid reason (maybe they have gotten all the trophies and the killer feels like they have something to prove, being a Twitcch streamer, bringing in a flashlight, etc...) is just unsportsmanlike. All survivor complains are not from pure salt due to having entitlement but maybe JUST MAYBE some killers actuallu have bad gameplay that results in a 0K/1K from making one survivors game brutal for no reason. It’s much more enjoyable when the killer is after ALL survivors.
This would be like saying survivors should only 33% a gen before running off to a fresh one. It's more fun for the killer if you waste time instead of focusing on completing your objectives.
But, survivors aren't there to make sure the killer has fun, and the killer isn't there to make sure the survivors do. But survivors have the advantage in that if they aren't having fun, and the die quickly, they can join a new game; killers, on the other hand, stay until the last survivor is dead or escapes.
You might not like that a killer capitalizes on the fact that you're injured, or dead on hook, where another survivor isn't, but he doesn't particularly like when you run back to complete a nearly finished generator instead of starting a new one. And yet, I don't see a lot of killer mains jumping on the forums to complain about survivors completing generators. After all, that's what survivors are supposed to do: try to survive. By the same token, "killer" isn't just a fancy title: they're meant to kill you.
If they aren't exploiting, lag switching, hacking or otherwise cheating, take your lumps and join a new lobby when you die.
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There are two sides of the argument, but both center around a killer's play style.
On the one hand, running BBQ and Chili, as you point out, grants a great deal of bloodpoints if you hook all 4 survivors. So, if you're looking for the highest bloodpoint ending, targeting each survivor, one after the other, would be ideal. Matches are very rarely "ideal."
If, after hooking the first survivor, for example, the others are too close, or hiding behind gen's, I don't have a target to run to. I have to go back to blind searching. This can lead to "tunneling" if you're unhooked before I can find another survivor to target. At that point, I know where two survivors are, one of whom is injured.
On the other hand, if the killer is looking to make the most kills, and have the highest chance of 4k'ing, "tunneling" is the ideal strategy. If I hook you, I might look around for a bit to see if I can find someone else, until you're unhooked. As above, I now know where two survivors are, one of whom is injured and has already been hooked once. I could look for someone else, or I could go after the survivor who took you off the hook, but that would give you the chance to heal and lead to a longer chase later.
In this way, targeted killing gives the killer the highest probability of keeping 1 player off the gens, and then dead faster than hooking three other people for the first time, before going back to you.
In the end, the most successful killers are those who combine the two tactics into a hybrid. If I have the choice between hitting someone who is injured or starting a new chase, the injured player is going down. However, I need to keep more than 1 player off the gens, I need to apply pressure in multiple locations at the same time.
For this reason I try to "tunnel" two players at the same time. If I hook you, see the next player with BBQ, and I can hook them about the same time you're getting off the hook, I can catch up to you again and keep the other two players busy pulling the both of you off the hook.
This doesn't work for all killers, nor is it preferable for all builds.
For example, this morning I played a "Make Your Choice" Hag build, where I would purposefully move away until the unhook happened, then Mint Rag myself back to one-hit down the survivor who made the save. In this case, the saving survivor was hooked while the survivor who was unhooked is injured and looking to spend time healing and escaping the area. Rinse and repeat.
I've also played Freddy games with Dying Light, where the obsession begins in the dream world, and after the first hook, I Mori them.
All of that description of different tactics is to explain that the killer is there to kill. In order to do that they capitalize on and make the best use of various perks and addon's.
It's no different than a survivor using Dead Hard to get to a window to jump through, just before the killing blow. Or, when I play survivor, using Alert to know where the killer is, and to a degree, if they're headed to my side of the map so I can hide. To say that a killer shouldn't "tunnel" or - more accurately - target their attacks, or play defensively, is no different than saying survivors shouldn't use map items, perks and abilities to escape the killer.
In the case of Dying Light, there is a built-in, very distinct benefit to killing the obsession as quickly as possible. In the case of Save the Best for Last, there's every incentive to hit every other survivor except the obsession.
It's no different than you having the choice between working on a gen that's 50% done and one that hasn't been started. You're going to jump on the 50%, all else being equal. You're going to "tunnel" that gen, because it's the most efficient use of your time.
The mistake you're making is thinking that the killer and survivors are there to work cooperatively, to have the most fun possible for everyone. That isn't the case. The survivors are doing everything they can to survive, and the killer is doing everything they can to kill. That's the nature of competitive games like DBD. If the killer isn't using a lag switch, or exploiting a bug, or otherwise exploiting the game, you really don't have much to complain about.
Most of all, if you read these forums as a killer main, and played by all the "survivor rules," you'd rarely make a kill, or pip.
All that said, face-campers are idiots. It's the only "toxic" tactic that I can wholeheartedly agree with survivors is utterly stupid. But not because it kills the hooked survivor, but because it greatly limits the killer's ability to kill the other competent survivors.
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@akbays35 said:
This seems strange to me, I would prefer they do a shorter interrupt and just allow him to slug and shock without having to put his weapon aside.The only killers that don't have a considerable downside to using their power are: Nurse, Hillbilly, Cannibal and Clown.
You can argue that switching is burdensome in some situations, but it also allows for some unique and fun addon combinations, like the "Calm" notes. It also allows for some unique play styles, such as not going into treatment mode until entering the end-game and exposing the survivors when you need to most.
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@Croz said:
Since the latest nerf to exhaustion I really don't see how it's fair killers are still able to trigger your exhaustion without you being able to utilize your perk even once in a chase. It like deletes a whole perk for you permanently through out the whole chase.It isn't fair, but not for the reasons you cite.
If I run a specific killer, with a specific addon, I can temporarily cause exhaustion, if I do something like hit you with a bottle or a hatchet.
On the other hand, any survivor can remove, or make useless, any number of killer perks.
So, let's balance it out. Let's make it so only Jake or Kate can cleanse a totem, and they have to have a toolbox in hand, and hit a series of difficult skill checks, but the totem repairs itself after 1 minute if they leave the immediate area.
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@Krampus said:
So, I just got camped, Again. The doors were open. 2 Of my teammates left me, the last one just looked as the killer stood next to me. It was a nurseCan the developers do so the more you camp the slower you get? I mean JUST SOMETHING TO STOP THESE NOOBS THAT CANT PLAY THE GAME CORRECTLY!
I just played as the Clown and the survivors camped three generators until they were complete! And then, after I kicked another one, they ran back and tunneled it! WHY CAN'T PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME CORRECTLY!
Survivors should get a penalty for staying close to a generator!
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@MasonHugsCats said:
Micheal can allready stalk multiple people and he has add-ons that increase his evil gained per second. If your having trouble stalking from being spotted to early use insidious.He can stalk multiple people, but it doesn't increase the amount of Evil Within he gains. Instead, it splits how much is taken from each survivor equally.
As for Insidious, it's a garbage perk on Myers. Monitor and Abuse is far more powerful in lowering his terror radius across all tiers, without forcing him to stand still.
The primary difficulty with Myers comes down to the randomness of the maps. If you get a map like Coldwind Farms, he's going to have a lot more trouble sneaking up to survivors and stalking without getting blocked by walls / corn / etc. I'm not sure that merits a change in how his power works, as each killer is stronger on specific maps than they are on others.
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I'd also point out that the easy of cleansing totems is the counter to what would otherwise be the most powerful perks in the game. If Devour Hope, Third Seal, Ruin, Lullaby, etc weren't bound to totems, they would be super overpowered.
Absolutely, changes would be healthy as far as totem placement locations, but that has to be balanced against the sheer power of Hex perks.
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I'd disagree that Ruin is overrated for the simple fact that the biggest enemy of any killer is time, and as far as perks which slow down the pace of the game, Ruin is certainly the best.
Alternatives, such as Overcharged, PGtW, and Thanatophobia are either more unreliable, weaker, or just as (or more) easily countered as Ruin.
Absolutely, there are problems with totem locations, as you point out. In some games, it's gone almost instantly, while in others it may last for several minutes. In Rank 1 matches, I see it lasting throughout the match as many Rank 1's find it faster to work through the Ruin than to hunt for the totem.
I am confused though: your main complaint about Ruin seems to be how easily it's discovered and broken, yet you're saying you replaced Ruin with other totem perks, which are just as easily broken. I guess they may not go looking for Third Seal until they've been hit, but with so many SWF groups, that's usually only the first hit.
Personally, I'd like to see Hex perks work by the killer placing the totem. It isn't in effect until the totem is placed, but the killer can place it anywhere on the map they choose.
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@thrashed2pieces said:
I am seriously trying to get my skill up with Nurse so I don’t just have this useless character hanging out in my roster that I never use. I know that will have plenty of you crying blasphemy and protesting that she is greatest ever. I simply have not experienced this AT ALL. For one, I play PS4 so I think the degree of accuracy I get out of her blink is minimized even after cranking up the sensitivity. From what I understand tactically speaking she more of a long range ambush character, pinpointing Survivor locations and blinking to score hits since chasing is useless and the fatigue gives them a chance to break line of sight. I’ve been running Insidious to capitalize on this, but at this point I’m honestly looking for feedback—tips, tactics, builds, anything other than “git gud”. I’m not looking to whine about it and I’m not claiming to be some great player, but I’m looking to get excited about using her again... thanks.As others have pointed out, you'll always have more difficulty with the Nurse on console and using a controller. There just isn't a good way around that, even with sensitivity maxed, it's no substitute for a mouse.
That said, the one thing that surprised me in your post was that you're running Insidious on her. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind that. The Nurse's strength is her mobility, and insidious robs her of that since you have to be standing still for it to work at all.
The strongest perks, for the Nurse, in my experience are:
BBQ and Chili - crossing the map quickly to get the hits when you see their auras.
A Nurse's Calling - great for any killer, but particularly for one who can close that distance and get the second smack instantly.
Sloppy Butcher - Enhancing opportunities for A Nurse's Calling, also slows down the game.
Hex: Ruin - Slow the game down, just a little bit.
Monitor and Abuse - I'm a little iffy on this one for nurse, but it can be very helpful in not allowing survivors to counter Nurse's Calling by not healing in the terror radius.Obviously, you can't take all of those in a match, but they capitalize on the Nurse's strengths. Insidious is a pretty lame perk, which I've only seen used effectively in a Cannibal's basement build.
Edit: Since, on console, you're more likely to see the end game with the Nurse, NOED can be more helpful there, and as was mentioned, Shadowborn, if you're having trouble keeping up with survivors during the fatigue.
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@AssassinZodiac said:
Great job with explaining these builds. You obviously do have a lot of time in the game. Some of your builds never occurred to me. Can't wait to try em out. Thanks. : )I wish I could take credit for all of them, but several were shown to me by various content creators, primarily Monto, who makes a TON of gimmick builds for Killers and Survivors. Some more silly than others. His YouTube channel is definitely worth checking out for build ideas and pure entertainment value.
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Yeah, I know. It's a book. =(
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@Real_Razor said:
Myers: Ruin, Monitor and Abuse, BBQ, Whispers/Nurse's - which should I go for?I would agree with Patrick99 for several reasons. I offer this only as rational behind why Nurse's is the stronger choice.
The downside to Whispers is that, yes, it lets you know survivors are in the general area, but there are a lot of ways to know that which don't involve the perk.
- At the start of a match, if they've started a generator, it's a safe bet they're nearby.
- Have they tapped a generator you've kicked, later in the match? Yep, they're close.
- Did they pull someone off a hook, finish a generator, are there scratch marks, did they throw a pallet even though you were facing away and didn't realize they were behind you, did they accidentally fast-vault forgetting to release shift before going through that window, or can you hear their grunts? You know generally where they are.
My point is, perk slots are precious things, and using one to gain information you can probably figure out on your own severely lessens its usefulness, in my opinion.
The upside to Whispers, in my experience, is limited to the first minute or two of a match, and the last two minutes of a match. It can help you find that first survivor before they've had a chance to do something else that would tip you off, or it can be super helpful in finding the last survivor you're hunting before they can jump in the hatch.
A Nurse's Calling, on the other hand, doesn't give you a general area where they may be: it shows you exactly where they are, and if someone else is doing the healing, you see them too. Now, the math. Running M&A, assuming you are not in a chase, Myers has a terror radius of:
Tier 1: 0 meters and no red stain
Tier 2: 8 meters
Tier 3: 24 metersA Nurse's Calling though reveals heals at a range of 28 meters. So, even if you're running around in T3, you can see them before they get a heartbeat notification. At T2, they don't know you're closing in on exactly where they are until you're all but in striking range.
The common counter to Nurse's is simply not to heal inside a terror radius, but Myers with M&A doesn't have much of one to begin with, so the counter simply doesn't work. And, as opposed to Whispers, it can pinpoint a location time after time after time throughout the match. There's no peaking around corners while they crouch the other way. They're there, you know they're there, and they don't know you're there until it's too late.
Another note on your build, while it is an entirely solid Myers build, if you find yourself leaning more on Nurse's than BBQ, or Ruin, swap one of them out with Sloppy Butcher and see how that works for you. You would either have to choke down not slowing down the early game with Ruin, or not getting the BP and cross-map location of BBQ, but it will force survivors to spend more time healing, and give you more opportunities to find them. As far as my play style, I would stick with your build, but maybe Sloppy would work a little better for your play style.
If you give the Scratched Mirror a shot, always couple it with Lery's Memorial offering, increased T1 lunge, M&A, Ruin, BBQ, and NOED. It's simply a devastating build, making it crazy easy to pull people off generators, smack them around corners, and always knowing where they are. The only common mistake people make running that build is chasing survivors: you'll be stuck in super-long and frustrating chases simply because of your decreased speed and lunge range. Hit them, lose the chase and your terror radius, then catch them again down the hall. Just be mindful of their lines of sight through doorways and around corners, don't tip them off that you're coming.
Usually in the 20 - 8 ranks, you'll find yourself not reaching the point of using NOED, but it's nice to have if there are some especially crafty survivors who manage to get away from you throughout the match. In the 8 - 1 ranks, it's a bit of a toss-up: you're more likely to need NOED, but they're also more likely to catch on to your build quickly and make sure to cleanse all your dull totems expecting NOED.
It should also be noted that Scratched Mirror stalking suffers from the same problem as BBQ: if they're hiding behind a generator, you won't see their outline, so when you're stalking through the halls, re-check generators from a couple angles to make sure you simply didn't miss them.
Good hunting!
/endessay
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It's a bad idea for several reasons.
First, the killer currently doesn't know how many totems are left and gets no notification when a dull totem is cleansed. There's no reason survivors should know either. If NOED pops or not at the end of the game, the killer can't predict any more than the survivors.
Second, it gives the survivors more information than just how many dull totems there are, but how many hex totems are being used. If they see there are 4 dull totems at the start of the match, they already know they're facing 1 hex. Which hex it is revealed when they touch their first generator and they can see if they have lullaby or Ruin. If not, it's most likely Devour Hope. There's a chance it's Third Seal, but unlikely. Maybe you see there are 2 dull totems, and you know one is Ruin, that means the other two are most likely Haunted Grounds, and all survivors can alter their game play accordingly.
The claim that it would only help solo survivors determine how many totems to cleanse to avoid NOED is not accurate.
Lastly, NOED is super overrated. Okay, sure, you got to the end of the match and weren't expecting to get one-hit down, but you did. One of the other survivors can cleanse the NOED totem, or another opportunity may present itself that you can be saved. If not, you got to the end of the match and definitely pip'ed and got a lot of points.
On the other side of that coin, the killer gets to the end of every match, and doesn't always pip.
Maybe the killer intentionally put together an end-game build, with Remember Me, Blood Warden and NOED. In turn, they gave up A Nurse's Calling, Sloppy Butcher, Brutal Strength, BBQ and Chili, or any other perk that would have helped in the early / mid game. The survivors had an easier time getting points and getting their pip, but sure, let's cripple an end-game build that the killer is using to get his points and pip.
Give me a break. If you see a dull totem, cleanse it. Maybe you avoid a NOED at the end, or maybe you wasted your time because the killer isn't running it. In either case, you don't need any more help. If NOED is that big a problem for you, bring Small Game.
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Eat the DS, dribble them, or slug them. Sacrificing Ruin, or BBQ, or Nurse's Calling, or Sloppy Butcher, or anything else that would be useful throughout the entire match, just to counter the possibility that you might be hit by DS is silly.
If you are going to create a build to counter DS, I'd recommend Third Seal or Knock Out, A Nurse's Calling, Sloppy Butcher, and Thrill of the Hunt. Who needs hooks?
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A killer should walk right into a DS when it's avoidable? Really?
I love hearing about how killers shouldn't avoid damage/stuns, while there's no one saying survivors, when seeing a trap, should walk straight into it instead of around it or disarming it.
How dare survivors crouch past Hag traps! How dare they run away when I want to hit them? How dare they throw down pallets to avoid a hit! Whaaa! In fact, why should survivors be able to disarm my traps when I can't disarm their decisive strike?!
Okay, here's some basic logic:
1) Survivors do everything they can to counter killer abilities and perks. From bringing Med Kits to improve healing time, to exhaustion perks, to addon's to increase skill-check success zones, to getting notifications when there's a totem or trap around, to running pallet and window loops. That's their job: to survive.
2) Killers do everything they can to counter survivor abilities and perks. This includes Ruin, Unnerving Presence, Sloppy Butcher, A Nurse's Calling, setting traps to end chases, and dribbling a DS user. That's the killer's job: to kill as efficiently as possible.
The alternative to countering a DS without dribbling is to slug everyone. And, if I start running into a majority of games where there are 2-3 DS users in most matches, watching survivors bleed out is exactly what I'm going to do. Then you'll be back on the forums complaining that it's "toxic" to run a slug build, and should be removed from the game. Womp womp.
To the guy who says "just take the hit and get DS out of the way," okay, that's an option sometimes. If the DS user is one of the first I find early in the match, I'll take the hit and get it out of the way before putting him on the hook. If I down him next to an open gate or hatch, I'm going to dribble him, if possible. And then I'll eat up all that yummy, yummy salt in the post-game chat.
Survivors who run DS are as stupid as killers who face camp throughout a match. DS might give you the chance to prolong a chase that you lost, but only once. Likewise, face-campers might ensure a single kill by standing on the hook, but both are able to be countered, and even if they aren't, the player employing those tactics gives up a lot for that maybe/maybe not proposition. With face-campers, they give up the possibility of additional kills, while with DS players, they give up an exhaustion perk, or healing perk, or repair speed perk, or stealth perk, or bloodpoint perk... With only 4 perk slots, you can't bring everything to every match, and giving up something that is of utility throughout the entire match for the chance that you might not be dribbled or slugged is stupid. Particularly so when, most of the time, the killer knows you have the perk from the start of the match (the exception being when a killer runs an obsession perk of their own, then they don't know for certain).
If they bring DS, they deserve whatever counter to it the killer chooses to employ. Simple as that. Don't like it? Don't bring DS. Don't like survivors using borrowed time/hook rushing, don't face-camp.
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Survivors have a counter to NOED already: it's called Small Game.
Before you say that you don't want to give up a perk slot to sense traps and totems, if "every" killer is running NOED, and it's that big a problem for you... well, there you go.
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I would disagree that map control and chase advantage are the only things that can define a good/bad killer. They are certainly huge advantages, but the bear traps are far from useless. Her lunge attack and stealth are also significant. I wouldn't argue that she's a great killer, or even where she should be, but I think you're discounting some of her abilities, and some of her potential. At least from my personal point of view.
My biggest dislike for her is that while her crouch helps hide her, it also makes her basically blind on many maps.
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@thesuicidefox Absolutely, you gotta play to your style and strengths and it sounds like you have it figured out.
It does always suck when Ruin is taken out super fast, but The Game, the Swamp and the hospital seem to have decent hiding places set up for them most of the time.
BBQ I use as much for the BP bonus as I do for the tracking. You can get played though when the survivors figure out you're using it and lose time chasing a fake out. As a rule, I always hide behind generators when playing as survivor when I see someone picked up.
I like exposed on Nurse as I find, as often as not, once they are exposed they are scared. A lot of times too scared to work on generators while it's on them. Even if I don't get an easy down, they aren't doing any work while I'm looking for them.
A build I like on Nurse is Thrill of the Hunt, Ruin, Devour Hope, BBQ. Particularly on small maps, they end up touching your totems and getting caught out over and over again while you're blinking between totems and hooking. It's risky, because if they happen to break Thrill early, they're going to break the others without you knowing they're working on them, and if you're too busy carrying to the hook and can't blink to defend, you can get caught with your pants down... or skirt up... or whatever. But it's a lot of fun to run once in a while.
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The only thing you have to be wary of learning to look up to blink is indoors, and particularly on The Game map. Looking up from downstairs will port you upstairs when you may want to stay below.
Once you're used to how long to charge a blink to get where you want to, it comes down to predicting the survivors, who are usually pretty predictable. For example, if someone turns around and charges in the opposite direction when you blink behind them, they'll most likely do it again the next time. If they do a 360 once, they're going to do it again. You may not anticipate where they'll run the first time in the chase, but you should know on the second time you blink at them.
Other acts are fairly universal. If you're on opposite sides of a pallet, for example, they're waiting for you to blink through so they can vault to your side. Either fake the blink, or double back on yourself for the easy hit.
As for your build: Shadowborn is good, but I'm not personally a big fan of the rest of those perks you're using in combination. Blood Warden, for example, is handy in the end game but the Nurse is generally better off focusing on the early and mid game and not allowing it to progress to the end. Ruin would slow down the game for you, giving you more time before they do all the gens. A Nurse's Calling is super useful, particularly after someone has been rescued from the hook. Devour Hope or Haunted Ground can be useful in giving you one-hit downs, or even Make Your Choice for downing anyone who does a rescue. Tinkerer can be good for knowing which gen they're working on, if you're having trouble knowing which end of the map to go to. Etc...
My main point is that you can strengthen your early and mid game with other perks to ensure it doesn't get to the gates being opened instead of using Blood Warden. The other three you're using are all for seeing / locating survivors, which for the Nurse isn't a terrible idea, but you may have more success capitalizing on easy downs.
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Eventually, you'll also run into survivors who use Dead Hard pretty creatively. For example, if they were taken off the hook in the basement, and you get to the stairs before they have gotten out, they may charge you and use Dead Hard to bypass your hit and body block to escape the basement.
Just be aware they can use it to escape being body blocked by you to get out of the basement, get to a hook for a rescue, or make it to the gate when you're in the way. Again, the best way to counter it is to wait until after it's used to make the swing. You don't want to have to suffer the missed attack cooldown.
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@lalalux said:
I am new in the game and i am playing with The Spirit. But i have a question about her controls. While trying to catch a survivor (really really close, right in front of me) i am trying to hit but they escape because i am one step behind them. I watched some videos and in the same situation, players just faster for a little time and they can hit them. It's like faster for a moment (like bouncing??) when you r so close to survivor. How??? Is this a keyboard button or perk or idk something? Like what i said i am new in the game so thanks.What you're referencing is Dead Hard. It's a Survivor perk that allows them to lunge forward and are immune to hits during the lunge.
It has an exhaustion cooldown like Sprint Burst and Lithe.
If you know or suspect someone has Dead Hard, ride their heels for a second and don't swing. If they lunge forward they blew the cooldown and can be hit. If they don't lunge forward, they probably don't have it, go ahead and hit them.
The worst thing you can do is swing as they use Dead Hard, because they don't get hurt and you suffer the missed attack slow down.
Edit: I should also mention that Dead Hard is only available to a survivor to use when they are injured, so you don't need to worry about it going off when you haven't hit them the first time yet.
Nearly every survivor is running one of the exhaustion perks, but they advertise which one it is. If they sprint away fast, right when the chase starts, that's Sprint Burst. Once the initial speed is gone, they're exhausted and have to not run for 40 seconds before it's available again.
If they run to a drop-off, it's usually because they have Balanced Landing, which will activate a Sprint Burst type speed boost when they land from a fall.
If they get a burst of speed after jumping through a window, it's Lithe, which is another burst of speed that activates when jumping through windows.
It's important to keep track of what people are using, and if they've used it. If they didn't get the burst of speed right off the bat, they aren't taking falls or going for windows, likely they have Dead Hard, so watch for it. If they do use any other speed burst, they either aren't using Dead Hard, or they're exhausted and can't use it, so you can play it out accordingly.
If you see a player start with No Mither, which is indicated by starting the match injured and unable to be healed in the bottom left, they are almost always also using Dead Hard.
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@No_Cluie_Louis said:
I completely disagree on pig. She belongs is B+I personally appreciate the opinion on the Pig, but I do think it depends on how you're playing her. If we're talking about her potential to kill and not the baseline without add-on's and offerings, you may very well be right. That said, if she's utilizing Amanda's Letter in Lery's, she can be hugely effective. Maybe not as effective as Scratched Mirror Myers in the same situation, but still highly effective.
On her baseline, she is the only killer whose ability forces a secondary objective and can greatly extend the match and the likelihood of a win. If a survivor is lucky enough to get their trap off on the first try, that's just bad luck for the Pig, but that's unlikely and even less so by increasing the number of boxes on the map.
In short, every survivor with a trap on their head is one less survivor making progress on generators, slowing down the pace of the game, and they can be found going to only a few predictable locations to free themselves from the trap after a hook-save. That doesn't even mention her ability to eliminate her terror radius entirely in crouch. It works better on some maps than others, but is still very effective in getting a first free hit in, and with the first free hit, can greatly shorten the length of a chase.
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I have a few criticisms of the list. First is the sample size you cite: 10 games each for having 40 survivors. That's a very limited sample size, which doesn't necessarily make the list right or wrong, but it is a very small sample. It also doesn't mention if they were random survivors or SWF, which would make a huge difference. For example, if you had 5 groups with SWF against Cannibal, but only 1 game with SWF against the Pig, that would drastically change the results.
Second, you don't describe the tools each killer used. Some killers are very dependent on their add-on's and offerings, where as others are less so. A Nurse without add-ons will do significantly better than The Spirit without them. Again, that doesn't mean your list is right or wrong, but it is important in describing your methods and assessing the accuracy of your list. For example, did you use a Trapper Bag for each game with the Trapper? Did you use Bloody Coils? That will make a big difference compared with not running any add-on's and judging a killer's potential.
On the basis of potential, based on my experience, I would disagree with a few relatively minor placements.
First, Doctor. The Doctor changes how survivors must play the match, but that alone doesn't make him a A-tier killer. He has decent movement speed, when he is in Punishment mode, but his power limits his movement speed. Each time he charges, he slows down, and in a chase he may be able to temporarily prevent a pallet being dropped, at the expense of his movement, and then being forced to waste more time changing back to Punishment mode before he can land a hit. Outside of that, his power forces survivors to take themselves out of Tier 3 Madness before they can interact with generators or heal, which can be very useful, but not overly taxing.
Second, and comparatively, The Trapper can eliminate loops entirely with his traps, and can send Survivors who step into them into dying status. He suffers from an opening time penalty of having to set up his traps to prep for chases, but can otherwise do very well to end chases with the proper prep and herding.
For those reasons, I would personally swap the positions of Trapper and the Doctor on your list.
Next up, The Hag. The Hag is fantastic at defense, and can be effective in ending loops with the placement of her traps. That said, she also moves slower than the standard killer, making her prep phase longer, and her ability to catch survivors lower. Furthermore, her traps can be entirely bypassed by crouching or with a flashlight. Which, compared to the Trapper, is a big disadvantage in her trapping. At the least, no one can move over the Trapper's traps without him getting the disarm notification and at best, injuring a healthy survivor for the disarm, where as survivors can crouch over the Hag's. Her strength is in surprising trap locations, and circumventing loops.
Furthermore, if the Hag is otherwise occupied in a chase, or carrying a survivor, setting off her traps poses no risk to the survivors. For these reasons I would lower her placement on the list.
Lastly, the Shape. If we're discussing the potential of killers, with the ideal addon's and offerings available, the Shape is an absolute menace to any survivor group. Supposing he utilizes permanent or tremendously extended Tier 3, his movement speed, ability to vault quickly through windows, and achieve 1-hit downs makes him extremely difficult to evade for long, or force into an extended 2-hit chase.
On the other side of the coin, utilizing a Scratched Mirror in Lery's enables him to earn free hit after free hit, if not generator / totem pull-offs with devastating ease.
If we aren't talking about potential ability, and simply based on their base power, I would rank him above the Hag for the reasons of her weaknesses. Myers suffers from slower initial movement speed, offset by his tiny terror radius, and in nearly every case, is able to stalk out of tier 1 relatively faster than the Hag can establish her set-up. What's more, survivors can only escape feeding his stalking by evading his line of sight, if possible. Which means his set-up phase, at worst, involves survivors running rather than working on generators.
The Wraith is a difficult one to place currently. Not only is his potential highly dependent on the add-ons and perks he uses, but also on the map he lands in. For example, maps with several generators out in the open make it far more difficult for him to get a surprise hit around a wall or through a doorway. However, if the Wraith is running a double-whirlwind build, stealth is less essential than speed and body-blocking survivors getting to a pallet during the de-cloaking.
So, I would say the Wraith has the potential to be very, very strong, but must rely on both add-ons and map offerings (and the survivors not throwing competing map offerings in) to utilize him to his highest potential. If he doesn't have a map/add-on combo to use, or if the survivors force him onto a map that doesn't work with the build, it can destroy the Wraith's potential. For those reasons, I would place him higher on the list for potential, but lower than most because of the risk of being thrown off by lack of or competing offerings.
With all of that said, I would place the killers as such:
SS: Nurse, Hillbilly
S: Shape / Spirit / Huntress (These are not in any particular order. In my experience, they're all highly effective with luck being the greatest determination of who is best used in any given game compared with the other. For example, if the Huntress happens to get a Lery's map, the Shape would have had the advantage. If it happens to be Coldwind, The Spirit or Huntress would have an advantage over the Shape. Etc...)
A+: Hag, Clown, Pig
A: Wraith, Trapper
B+: Doctor, Cannibal
B: FreddyPlease don't think of these comments as poo-poo'ing your list. It may very well be that among the entire player-base, your list is more accurate than mine, and it may be that I'm not as skilled with a particular killer as someone else, which lands them lower on my list than it would on someone else's. That said, I feel it's fairly accurate based on firm reasoning.
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It depends on the situation, and what exactly you're after.
You said the three ran into the exit area, but didn't exit. Why didn't you force them out? Hitting a survivor at the exit will nearly guarantee they run out the door and not risk going for the save. At the least, you could have forced one or two of them out, severely limiting their ability to coordinate body-blocks and saving the hooked survivor.
You also said you waited for the attempted unhook so you could make a grab, but you were being body-blocked from making the grab, so why did you wait? If you can't make the grab, make the hit. In the worst case you would have been chasing three people to the exit, but two would have been injured instead of just one, and you would likely have been able to get another down before they made it out.
You phased to the exit gate after it was open. Why? If you were trying to secure your one kill and you aren't going to force them out, why waist your cool down and risk them walking right past you to the hook without you knowing they're there? If you'd stayed at the hook, the survivor up there would probably signal he was being camped and the other three would have left instead of going back, or he may have tried for the Kobe and severely limited his time on the hook.
Lastly, if you're having trouble with the mid-game with all four survivors making it to the end game, design your build for end-game advantage. Running NOED, Blood Warden and Remember Me could all have made the difference for you.
Short of that, your best option might have been using your phase to get ahead of the running survivors, knowing they're blocking you from reaching the injured survivor from behind, and gotten the hit there. I guess it depends on how much time you had.
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You said it yourself, "Killers are back to their most efficient tactics available..." What you seem to want are dumb killers.
There's little you can do to counter camping except simply doing generators instead of going for the save. Which is exactly what the rest of your team should be doing if you give the camping pull-up signal. It isn't fun for the person on the hook, but then it's your team's most viable option to leave you up there. It also starves the killer of BP's and progression.
Tunneling is viable when the opportunity presents itself. If someone is pulled off the hook in front of me, I'm downing him quickly and taking him out of the game instead of getting into a long chase while the injured player heals and makes more progress against me.
The counter to tunneling is doing hook saves when that the opportunity isn't presented to the killer. That is, go for the save while the killer is already chasing someone else and unlikely to break off the chase to go back to the hook. Then you can heal and hide and get back to pressing M1.
The arguments that killers shouldn't focus on an injured player are ridiculous. I'm sure none of those survivors take in exhaustion perks, tool boxes, med kits, keys, urban evasion or anything else that gives them the greatest chance at success, right? When they're seen by the killer, they stand still instead of running loops and throwing pallets, right?
Survivors do everything they can to survive, and they should. Killers will do everything they can to kill, and they should. Saying it's "toxic" to play tactically is to say the killers should roll over, or be too stupid to take an obvious advantage when presented to them.
If your team members are pulling you off the hook when the killer can pop back to tunnel you, blame your team, not the killer.
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It's a terrible idea.
The first fallout will be killers all going perma T3 Myers and Billy for 1-hit downs to avoid the perk.
The second fallout will be survivors running No Mither, so they're always injured and able to activate the perk. Self Care, all other healing perks, and first aid kits would be useless. Healing would no longer be part of the game.
After that, killers would only run ambush characters, like the Pig.
Dead Hard works because it gives survivors a temporary escape they can use to gain a few seconds to make 1 pallet, or make it to that 1 window. This idea would effectively restart any chase from the beginning, or better. The only way to make it work and maintain some semblance of balance would be a severe penalty for using it, such as 50% run and action speed. It may be useful in a specific situation, to make the gate or hatch at the last moment, but not double the time of all chases.
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@Master said:
Now, imagining that all the perks have been unlocked by developing all the characters or buying them from the Shrine of Secrets and making a quick calculation, having FOUR PERK SLOTS means, at present (ie without considering the upcoming two new chapters and related perks), and without considering perk tiers:
1) 56 * 55 * 54 * 53 = 8,814,960 perk combinations for survivors;
2) 51 * 50 * 49 * 48 = 5,997,600 perk combinations for killers (a drastically lower variability: I propose the introduction of another 5 killer perks, regardless of whether developers accept my system or not).Under the same conditions, having SIX PERK SLOTS means:
1) 56 * 55 * 54 * 53 * 52 * 51 = 23,377,273,920 perk combinations for survivors;
2) 51 * 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 = 12,966,811,200 perk combinations for killers;
ie:
1) a game variability 2,652 times greater than now for survivors;
2) a game variability 2,162 times greater than now for killers.I quote this to point out a problem with your math: you're including duplicate builds multiple times. For example, using that math, SB - DS - Ace in the Hole - Plunderer's would count 24 times as the order they're added changes. i.e. SB - DS - Plunderer's - Ace // SB - Plunderer's - Ace - DS // SB - Plunderer's - DS - Ace... They're the same build, but you're calculating them as unique.
That said, there are a lot of different builds, some of which work, some which are utter garbage.
You claimed that my other points were very vague, but didn't address one of the largest points: that the game is about making choices with limited resources. If I don't know the maps well, I can bring along Windows of Opportunity, and that will help me. On the other side of that coin, I can't bring along Urban Evasion to help me move unseen. If I'm a solo player, I'm bringing along Self Care, because I'm not always going to be able to find other survivors, but if I'm SWF, I may pass on it in favor of Borrowed Time. We all make choices of what build best help us survive or kill.
Now, if you increase the slots by 2, I don't have to make those decisions anymore. Now I can run with Self Care, Sprint Burst, Alert, Adrenaline, Borrowed Time and Unbreakable. I'm far less afraid of running into the killer, and if I'm not afraid of the killer, this horror game has failed.
I'm not saying that the number can ONLY be 4, but what I am saying is that adding 2 perks per player will have a radical impact on the game, very few of them good, and there would have to be severe re-balancing, changing and removing of perks to take this into account. It's the law of unintended consequences: if you make such a huge change to the game, it's going to create more problems, which will then have to be fixed, which will create other problems to fix and on and on.
If perk slots are going to be added for anyone, it should be in such a way as to help - not hurt - the balance. For example, giving solo survivors and killers an additional perk slot while limiting SWF to 4. That might work, but you would still run into a lot of side problems.
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Healing was changed as a way of slowing down game progress because organized survivors are able to gen rush and open the doors too quickly while the killer is looped. This advantage is still true, however, it takes survivors a few more seconds to heal if they're caught. It wasn't a huge change, but a good way to slow down the game when the killer is able to catch survivors.
On NOED: cleanse dull totems. You get 600 points for it each time, and if there are no dull totems out there when the last generator pops, there's no NOED. If you'd rather take the risk the killer is running NOED, don't. I cleanse every totem I see when facing Trapper, Doc, Hag, Pig... but tend not to worry about them against Hillbilly, Myers, Leatherface, Nurse, etc because it's less likely they'll be running it.
NOED is one way the many killers are more balanced, and a very legitimate strategy. A killer who builds based on the end-game is taking an awful risk of being able to find and catch survivors after the generators are already complete. And, in turn, they're giving up another perk that could slow down the entire match, such as Thanatophobia, or Ruin, or Sloppy Butcher, or they're giving up their ability to end chases faster, such as Brutal Strength and Bamboozle.
Take away NOED and you'll see builds based on not getting to the end game at all, and then you'll be back complaining about that.
I'm red rank as a killer, so it's likely we'll play against each other. I hope so. If you have a 4% survival record, I'm going to enjoy the free pips.
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I don't believe it would serve the health of the game like you seem to think. Yes, there are more options now than when the game was released, but that doesn't mean all the dynamics have changed.
When I play survivor, I have to make choices on what to bring into the match. By increasing the number of choices I get to make, you would eliminate having to give up one strength for another. For example, you may take a bonus like Botanical in to heal faster, or you might go for Urban Evasion to move faster while crouched, but you might not have space for both. If you take both, you have to give up something else...
The same is true when playing killer: do they focus on finding survivors, breaking through obstacles, hindering survivor progress, etc... They can't do it all with 4 perk slots, but they could with 6.
You have to make choices, based on your own strengths and weaknesses. The addition of new characters doesn't mean you should be able to bring more perks, only that there is a greater variety to choose from, and that's a good thing.
The question of balance, which you seem to dismiss in this thread, is of material importance to any discussion of a 50% increase in perks.
For the killer side, it would mean bringing in 2 additional perks. For the survivor side, it would mean bringing in 8 additional perks. The balance of current perks aside, that's a 400% greater buff to the survivor team than the killer side, and that would utterly break the game. In order to re-adjust the balance that would be required would mean massive nerfs to survivor perks and/or massive buffs to killer perks.
In that scenario, sure you could bring Self Care, but to balance 6 perks, it's only 10% as fast as being healed by others. Sure, you could bring it and 5 other perks, but would you? Probably not. Better to use Bond to find other players. Except Bond's effective range would have to be massively nerfed too, to be of little help in finding other survivors... And if it's the killer perks that are buffed for balance, it would mean things like a Ruin that isn't attached to a totem and running the entire match, or inflicting a mangled effect that cannot be removed... That doesn't sound like much fun either.
See what I'm saying here? It might seem neat to bring more perks into the match, but the practical effect would mean either creating an unplayable game, or making good perks bad to restore balance. Better to stick with 4 and continue to get more variety with the new characters, and a greater pool to choose from to make unique and fun builds.
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@Gurpsmeister said:
So at the end of a match I hear it constantly. I get called names because I looped you hard. I get called immersed and an ######### for stealthing and evading. I get called a tryhard gen rusher if I'm working on gens.I'm a little confused here.
I mean if I'm camped I usually take it as a compliment. To ME it means that I was enough of a pain in the butt to earn the company. I have no complaints about the tactic and anyone who claims tunneling is a thing doesn't understand the game.
I'm just super confused that as a survivor it seems no matter WHAT style I do, I'm a jerk for doing it? What do you want Killer mains? YOU'RE TEARING ME APART!
I can't speak for all the killers you face, but tea-bagging because you dropped a pallet, and running a brief lag switch are the only things I find particularly toxic.
You're supposed to loop, and the killer would be better off finding a less-skilled survivor to chase and kill. That isn't any more toxic than the killer utilizing his attack to hit you.
Sure, it can get frustrating to run in circles for 10 minutes and get no kills, but that's just the way the game is playing against skilled survivors. It isn't your fault, if it's anyone's.
I would say, if you're getting a lot of hate in chat afterward, treat it the same way you do being camped: take it as a compliment, even if it isn't meant as one.
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@c_firavel said:
I'm not a noob. I've played on both sides. Time amounts to nothing if the killer can one shot you or find you without scratch marks on the ground and also not injured. I don't care what the devs or streamers say, but the odds are heavily stacked against the survivors.I play both sides as well, and it's good that you don't necessarily care what the people who play the game for a living think, but let's look at what you're saying objectively.
First off: it's too easy to find survivors. Killers have a few tools in their kit to find survivors, few of which pinpoint your location until and unless you're a decent distance away from the killer, or you're completing objectives. That's assuming you aren't failing skill checks. What's more, the more a killer devotes to location perks, the more they take away from their ability to kill once they find you. So, yes, a killer can run BBQ & Chili, Rancor, Whispers and A Nurse's Calling, but then they give up things like Brutal Strength, Bamboozle, Spirit Fury, and Enduring to end chases faster. They can use a combination of the two, in which case they give up perks which slow down the start or the end of the game, such as Ruin, Remember Me, etc.
So, as a killer, we can only locate and kill you faster, if we give up tools to ultimately win the round. Because, remember, finding 1 survivor and downing her isn't enough to win a round or even pip, particularly not when there are 3 other survivors all completing objectives at the same time.
Second: you claim killers are over-powered compared to the survivors. The truth is, killers only win because survivors make mistakes. If I find you, for example, straight off the bat, you can loop me all by yourself the entire match, while the other three accomplish generators. With double pallet, double window loops, and the number of pallets and windows available on every map, it is entirely possible that a killer is looped by a single survivor an entire match. It happens all the time. Our only tool against this is to give up the chase and find someone else who isn't as skilled to kill.
Look at when you're killed: did the killer "mind game" you? Meaning, did they fake left to force you to jump a pallet, only to go right and catch you? That isn't the killer being over-powered, that's you being out-gamed. Did another survivor jump through the window ahead of you and force you to take a hit? Again, that isn't the killer being over-powered, but you being out-played and not finding an alternative escape.
The vast majority of the time, the killer can only catch you because you made some mistake, or someone on your team did. Did one person drop every pallet on the map in the first two minutes of the match during a chase? Blame that survivor, not the killer. Using up all your defenses wasn't the killer being OP, but your fellow survivor being a fool and unskilled.
Third, what does it take for a survivor to "win." If you mean pip'ing, it isn't escaping the match. If all you do is complete 1 generator, make 1 safe hook rescue, and survive for 9 minutes, you will at the least safety pip, and not reduce in rank. With a 2-minute hook timer, that really means surviving for 7 minutes off the hook. If you do mean escaping the match, consider that the killer (who is also another player) is also trying to "win." If all four survivors are able to escape the match and "win" every round, or even most rounds, you will find you have no killers to play against.
Forth, the killers are supposed to be stronger than you. Why? Because there are 4 of you and 1 of her. You're supposed to be able to utilize your abilities and teamwork to complete the objectives while the stronger killer is supposed to be slowing your progress down and eliminating you. And, as the game is currently balanced, the survivors have the advantage here. The advantage the killer has is that they run faster than you most of the time. Okay, but running faster doesn't help if I have to slow-vault through every window, and stop running to kick every pallet. Then I have no advantage at all, and all the advantage belongs to you.
Fifth, look at your original post: "they can find you if you're standing out in the open." No kidding? Using your own term, why are you "standing out" and not expecting to be found? If you're "standing" in "the open," and you don't expect the killer to see you and give chase, I'm not sure what to tell you. With Urban Evasion and utilizing map features, there's absolutely no reason for you to be caught out in the open. Particularly not when, the vast majority of the time, you get a heartbeat warning of the killer's presence before they could ever see you.
Are there killer perks that make it easier for them to catch you, or stealth up to you? Absolutely. Myers utilizing the scratched mirror and monitor and abuse can see you through walls and catch you off guard without any warning. This is a "gimmick build" which utilizes a rare add-on, and simply cannot be used every round or even the majority of the rounds, and is only effective in Lery's, which requires yet another hard-to-find offering. No killer gets enough bloodpoints to run these combinations every round they play. But more than that, the stealth killers all have significant draw-backs as well: the Pig, if seen coming, can't catch a survivor based on her crouch speed, she has to stand up and turn into a base-line killer with no particular advantages over other killers. And, you always know you're facing a Pig based on the saw traps located all over the map, long before you hear her growl. Freddy is another stealth killer, but you can always hear his song before he can put you to sleep, and have an incredible 7 seconds to evade or break the sleep before he can ever touch you. Wraith, another stealth killer, can still be seen running around while cloaked. And, even if he gets close to you before you see him, has to wait through coming out of cloaking before he can even touch you.
The Doctor specializes in being able to find survivors, yes. And yet, his ability to kill is limited. He can use his power only by also slowing his chase speed and giving up the ability to hit a survivor at all, and he can only chase a single survivor at a time. Even if he knows where everyone is, he can only chase one person at a time. The moment you see one player scream into Madness 1, you should be running in to do the same thing. Again, the Doctor can only chase 1 survivor at a time, and when all 4 scream into Madness 1 at the same time, it vastly reduces his ability to track down the second survivor after downing the first.
But, okay, you get found early, get downed and hooked. Once you're pulled off the killer has to do that to you, and all three of your allies, again and again and again before you're dead. The match isn't over just because you were caught once: you get chance after chance to get out alive.
One-hit downs is something you complained about. Without utilizing ultra-rare perks, this refers to three killers: The Hillbilly, The Cannibal and Myers. Two of them I would consider "top tier" killers: Billy and Myers. But Billy can't turn effectively while chainsawing and has to wait through the charge-up time, making avoiding the chainsaw a lot easier than avoiding his mallet, and Myers can only stay in insta-down mode for 60 seconds at a time. He's further limited by the number of times he can enter tier-three to perform one-hit downs. So, if the survivors are utilizing line-of-sight breaking objects to stop Myers from tier'ing up, it's relatively easy to deprive him of the ability to tier-up and kill survivors if he doesn't get into tier 2 relatively quickly in the match.
But, I hear survivors complain, "I was camped." Getting face-camped sucks for that survivor, there's no doubt about it. But a killer who face-camps will (or should) lose the round. Let's suppose you were unlucky and were found in the first minute of a match, and let's suppose you were down'ed in the second minute. You were then put on a hook and face-camped for the three-minute death counter. That's five minutes, during which time the other three survivors have amble time to complete three generators and start on the final two. If the killer does it again, the remaining two survivors can finish the final two generators and open the exit gates even before the second survivor dies, giving them the opportunity to bait the killer away, or utilize the hit-recovery mechanic, or Borrowed Time to rescue their ally, or just get out without making the save. In this example, the killer would have downed two survivors, killed one, and not earned enough points to pip. Even if the second down'ed survivor dies on the hook, it isn't enough points for the killer to pip. The only way this strategy works is if the other survivors rush into the camp'ed location and recklessly try to make the save instead of completing objectives.
If you really want to take a look at "camping" or defensive playing, check out this video first (NSFW language warning):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c3kz80t-CcBut, you might complain, "I was tunneled." I'll never understand why survivors think of this as a toxic way to play. All else being equal, if the killer has the chance to chase player 1 or player 2, and player 1 is already injured or closer to death, why would she chase player 2? For the same reason that survivor's body-block and run interference to pull the killer's attention, the killer should be focusing on making the kill. That's why they're killers: to kill. And, if you don't have the time to rescue someone from the hook and find a safe place to recover, you're to blame and should have played options instead of pulling an ally off the hook when it wasn't safe to do so.
And before you say, "what about the hag?" Or, "what about Insidious..." The Hag is so easily countered as to be ridiculous. Crouching as a survivor eliminates her traps entirely, that is if you don't have a flashlight to take away her traps entirely. If you don't know to crouch, don't blame the Hag, blame your understanding of mechanics. Insidious only works when the killer stops chasing and lays in wait, usually where the hooked survivor can see them. But, let's suppose a clever killer sets their trap and uses insidious out of view where the hooked survivor can't see it? It shouldn't work more than once. Every other survivor on the map can see that the hooked survivor wasn't giving the "camped" signal, and they can all see that as soon (or before) you were taken off the hook, the other survivor started getting hit and down'ed at the same location. They should, therefore, know the area is being camped and complete objectives instead of running headlong into the same trap.
I've even had 0-kill games turn into 4k games because the last remaining three generators were all closely placed to each other, making patrolling them and downing survivors much easier. Was that because of my awesome game play? Absolutely not. It was because the survivors failed to notice they were completing generators entirely on a single side of the map, and leaving those three for last. If they had completed even one of the three-gen trifecta, I wouldn't have gotten a single kill. Again, they made mistakes that gave me an advantage.
These are simple tactics and understanding of game mechanics. They're also things you should be thinking about and considering while playing. Trying to figure out what perks the killer is running is fundamental to being a good survivor. Does the killer, who hooks a player across the map, know you're working on a particular generator and run straight for you? He's running BBQ and Chili. Counter this by running in one direction when your ally is being hooked, and stealth back after 4 seconds. Does the killer run for you while you're healing out of view? He's running Nurse's Calling: don't heal inside their terror radius. Are you facing a Myers who doesn't stalk his way out of tier 1? He can see you through walls, so don't bother hiding, but utilize line-of-sight to see him coming. He's slow and has almost no lunge range. Facing a nurse? Don't bother with the usual survivor tactics of jumping through windows and dropping pallets, instead, break line-of-sight, double back on yourself, and use her fatigue against her to make her lose you. The nurse can only hit you if she can correctly predict your next move, so be unpredictable. Keep getting one-hit down at the end of the match? Bring a map and make a point to break dull totems as often as possible to deprive the killer of NOED.
What's more, certain killers are almost sure to be running NOED: Wraith, Hag, Trapper and Freddy come to mind immediately. They aren't particularly strong in the start of the match, and must rely on that advantage at the end of the match to have much of a chance.
The game is all about adapting to each killer in each round. If you want to run a simple and straight-forward way to defeat every killer every round, you're out of luck. They're each going to use unique abilities and perks to search for the advantage, but the only way they're successful in doing so is because you fail to adapt your own game play to that round. And remember, progressing is as simple as doing 1 generator, 1 safe hook save, and surviving for 9 minutes. Anything you do on top of that is gravy. You might not get out alive doing that, but you can join a new match while the killer is stuck in their current match to the conclusion. What's more, you have an insta-queue, where the killers have to wait around 15 minutes between matches.
It's also about knowing the maps, and knowing which places are good for looping and which are bad. In The Game? Right next to the washroom is a double pallet loop, big enough that the killer doesn't have the time to mind game you around that huge block. Play both pallets and, at the least, you've survived an additional 30 seconds to a minute, and given yourself the chance to run to the next loop before they can hit you. On the farm? Every 20 meters is another window and pallet loop which can be utilized for a minute or two before running off to the next, if you don't lose the killer in the corn in the meantime.
You should be running perks based on your weaknesses. Are you being caught early every match? Run Urban Evasion and stealth around until the killer finds someone else first. Have trouble finding pallets and windows? Run Windows of Opportunity to make this so much easier. Getting slugged? Run Unbreakable. Having trouble locating the killer? Run Alert or better yet, Bond. If you see another survivor running and throwing pallets, you know where the killer is and if you're safe where you are.
Meanwhile, remember that the killer must find, chase, and down four survivors three different times each to kill everyone. Most of the time, this isn't the case, and they must satisfy themselves with a 2-kill match, all while saying, "Oh, it's the running in circles game. How fun." I'm a good killer, and though I'm far from the best, I choose my perks and add-on's very carefully to give me the most possible advantage, and still I see my fair share of 0-kill or 1-kill games. Not because I'm bad, but because no matter what, I'm at the disadvantage. The only time I'm at the advantage is when survivors make mistakes.
You started out dismissing what the professionals say about the game balance, but fail to address why they make that claim. So why do the professionals say the game is balanced in the survivor's favor? Because every encounter between survivor and killer is dictated by the survivor. Where you start the chase, where it goes, what else is happening during the chase... all of it is determined by the survivors, not the killers. The killers are on defense the entire match, trying to protect seven different objects from four different players, in a race against time when time is not in the killer's favor.
Look at the time it takes to complete a generator, versus the time it takes to find, chase, down and hook a survivor. A single gen can be completed by a single survivor in less time than a moderately skilled survivor can loop a killer. That's a fact. And with three other survivors all doing gen's, there's no reason not to win every match. What counters do the killers have to this time advantage the survivors have? Ruin is the most common, but good survivors know the totem locations and can track down Ruin quickly every match, or just work through it by hitting a majority of great skill checks. Other than that? Dying Light requires finding a particular survivor, chasing them several times, and finally killing them before it ever has a chance to take effect. The only time I've had dying light work effectively is playing Freddy, and burning an add-on to force the obsession into the dream world from the start, and using a Mori on them after they've been rescued from the hook. In the meantime, a minimum three generators are always completed. Remember Me is fairly strong, but again, only if you locate and punish the obsession. And, even then, it only delays opening the doors briefly, and with two doors on the map, it's impossible to patrol both fast enough to stop them opening.
Take a look at Monto's YouTube page. He does a lot of "gimmick" builds which allow him to do 4-kill games, but he's only able to do those because he burns a LOT of bloodpoints to get those add-on's and offerings. Peak-a-Boo Myers, Snipper Doc, Impossible Skill Checks... these are all gimmick builds that can be done once in a while, but he isn't showing you all the games he had to play in the meantime to make those videos. Yes, some very skilled players do the "random perk wheel" and still manage to get 4-kill games, but there you're talking about guys who have thousands and thousands of hours of play time and a whole lot of skill compared to the people they're facing. These aren't the killers you're facing.
Take a look at TydeTyme's page: he has almost 2,000 hours of play time, and recently published a survivor's guide you may find very useful.
I hope I've been clear without sounding like I'm talking down to you here, which wasn't my intention. I'm trying to provide tips for becoming a better survivor, and better understanding and utilizing all the advantages you have, while minimizing any weakness you may have.
GG