Crizpen
Crizpen
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@SIlentCetra said:
So I just recently saw this perk on my bloodweb for the hillbilly. Is it a decent perk? It SOUNDS decent, but then, even at the low ranks I play on right now, it seems that crows don't often get set off, unless it's by me. But maybe people don't care about crows at the higher ranks?Anyways, bearing in mind I have NO DLC characters besides the free nurse, ergo no DLC perks, is this one viable to use? Or would I Just be wasting a perk slot?
It definitely got better with the buff. Survivors are very unconcerned with setting off crows, so you'll get a lot of information from it. That said, keep in mind that the information is always old.
Meaning, if a survivor is running and sets off a crow 30 meters away, you know they were there when they set off the crow, but where did they get to while you traveled to where the crows were? If you can predict their direction, or pick up scratch marks after they set the crows off, it's great. If you fall into the trap of chasing crow alerts though, you're always going where they were, not where they are.
As far as compared to other informational perks, I would rate it above whispers since it's far more precise, but below any aura revealing perks such as BBQ, Discordance, or Surveillance.
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IMO, M&A is okay on Myers, but it's a part-time perk on him. It's great in T1, and can be handy in T2, but fairly worthless in T3. Sometimes I run it, sometimes I don't... but it usually won't make or break your game.
BBQ is always awesome. The points are fantastic, and it will usually give you your next target the moment you're done with your current one.
Ruin is extremely useful; even if it's broken early, it should give you the time to get out of T1, and to start building some momentum.
Sloppy is fairly overrated: the effect on healing time isn't worth the perk slot, IMO.
So, I would stick with BBQ and Ruin, and throw in Enduring and Spirit Fury. Enduring, obviously, lets you be super aggressive with pallets without being punished much. You'll end up with more through-pallet hits, and the brief stun won't phase you. And, it's handy for dealing with DStrike. Spirit Fury also not only allows you to get an easy hit, through the pallet or on the other side, but destroys a pallet in the process, and you can't really ask for much more than that.
Unless you know you're headed to Lery's, Bamboozle is too situational. Even in a jungle gym, you can only block one window at a time, and only for a fairly short period of time. And, Myers already vaults really fast in T3. Nurse's Calling is nice, particularly if you're also running M&A, since survivors will often stop healing if they're in your terror radius.
So, it really comes down to your play style. If you want to be a really aggressive Myers in chase, I'd do Enduring and Spirit Fury. If you're uncomfortable disrespecting pallets, and you want to play a bit more deceptively, M&A and Nurse's is a great combo. It also depends on how much time you want to spend in T2 vs T3. If you're trying to get the most out of T3, the enduring combo. If not, M&A combo.
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@saiisam Teaming with the killer is an offense that you should report. For instance, AngryPug was streaming a match once, while he was drinking and screwing around, helped the killer kill all the survivors. He wasn't communicating with the killer, but through his actions, teamed with the killer to the detriment of the other survivors. He got a 24 hour suspension for it.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a commentary on Pug, I'm just using it as an example for what happens when survivors team with the killer.
Both the killer and survivor should be reported, and hopefully they'll get their suspension and learn their lesson. If they don't, eventually they'll get banned. If you have the capability, it's also not a bad idea to record the match when you see something like that happening. It seems to have a lot more (and faster) impact if the dev's aren't relying on your accounting of what happened, and have the proof in front of them.
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@Shad03 said:
So the description of the achievement is wrong?Darn
Hard to believe, right? But yes, the description is wrong. Even saying you need to 4k can be deceptive, since DC's do count as well. It's more like, no one can escape. And, as was said, slugging for the win is the best way to do it.
Evil Incarnate is another tough one, since it's pretty much guaranteed the hatch will spawn before you can get to T3 and start killing people. But, at least there isn't a hatch stand-off with Judith's Tombstone, since you don't have to worry about a swing giving them the window to jump.
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@BOGUEINATOR said:
I don't think I need anything explained for me. I've been playing the game long enough to have a good understanding. If you weren't an idiot you would know that killers win more than survivors by a mile and have done so for a lengthy period and continue to. So why is there a need to cry over a change to a surv perk? Don't complain about something unless you're telling both sides of the story. In this case, the fact that gens are slower in groups now, etc.Well, I'll do you the favor of explaining it to you, since you think you know so much more than you do.
First of all, the dynamics of the game mean that survivors die, not because the killer does extremely well, but because the survivors make mistakes, or play less than optimally. An argument can be made that this doesn't apply to the Nurse or Legion as much as other killers, but even against Nurse and Legion, survivors have every tool they need to complete their objectives and escape.
The reason for this is because survivors control the pace and direction of the game, not the killer. An optimal survivor knows the maps, and knows where to expect pallets and windows (even if they haven't seen them), and the judgment to know which points of safety they can reach and which they can't, based on the killer they're facing. A killer, by contrast, cannot decide the chase shouldn't go to this jungle gym, or that safe pallet location, but is forced to follow the survivor's lead.
Survivors go down because they misjudge distance and speed, because they fail to drop a pallet in time, or because they don't know where to run to. Optimal survivors go down because the chase has lasted so long they've run out of resources to use in their defense.
This is combined with the fact that there is only 1 killer, compared to 4 survivors. So while the killer can only chase 1 survivor at a time, regardless of the length of the chase, 3 survivors are free to work on and complete objectives throughout the chase, and should be doing exactly that. Bad survivors spend time sabo'ing hooks, breaking totems, digging through chests, etc...
Furthermore, this is complicated for the killer by the fact that survivors begin every single match with all the momentum. Survivors spawn near gens, able to begin completing objectives immediately. The killer does not spawn next to survivors, but must find them before one can be taken off the objective. If the chase ends quickly, because the survivor makes mistakes the killer is able to capitalize on, the survivor can be put on the hook and a second survivor can be required to leave generators in order to make a hook save. But the pressure is minimal since the hooked survivor has significant time on the hook before entering stage 2 and being put at any more danger. This isn't true for the killer, who must start from the beginning again, finding a new survivor and initiating a new chase.
If survivors are so uncoordinated that multiple survivors immediately abandon generators in order to make an unnecessary fast hook save, it certainly isn't because the killer has an advantage, but because the survivors are uncoordinated. If survivors make unsafe hook saves, or farm each other off the hook, it certainly isn't the killer being unbalanced, but the survivors being stupid.
While chases are going on, optimal survivors are able to complete generators very quickly, even without perks, even if the killer has Ruin. Hitting great skill checks is far from impossible, and can be achieved the vast majority of the time with practice. So, even game slowing perks such as Ruin, Unnerving Presence, Overcharge, etc... are only effective against less than optimal survivors.
What all of that means is that there is a hard cap for killer skill. No matter how good a killer may be at the game, how well they perform in any given match is determined by the skill level and coordination of the survivors.
This has been demonstrated countless times from both perspectives. The DePip Squad is perhaps the most infamous, but they're far from the only good group of survivors who have been able to go through dozens, even hundreds of consecutive matches without allowing the killer to pip. Most recently it was on full display against TrU3ta1ent, who attempted to reach rank 1 as both a survivor and killer, with no perks, add-on's or offerings. While it was little different on the survivor side, it became vastly different as he had to abandon all other killers and only play Nurse after reaching rank 3, and even with 3k games, was sometimes unable to pip up. Even against his Nurse, coordinated groups were able to knock out 4 generators in under 5 minutes, while TrU3 was in chase or hooking them throughout the same time period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP8t3FpriOgYou'll find TrU3 was able to get the first down in roughly 50 seconds, the first gen complete at 1 minute, the second gen at 1 minute 20 seconds, the second down at roughly 1 minute 30 seconds, the third gen at 2 minutes, the 3rd down at 2 minutes 55 seconds, the forth gen at 3 minutes 5 seconds, the forth down at 3 minutes 30 seconds, the fifth down at 4 minutes 10 seconds, the final gen at 4 minutes 12 seconds. At that point in the match, he had achieved only 3 hooks between 2 survivors. The first door open at 4 minutes 40 seconds.
Despite doing extremely well, and better than most other killers in both his ability to find survivors and end chases, he was unable to stop them because the survivors didn't make a lot of mistakes, focused down objectives, and recovered extremely quickly from all set backs. They were optimal.
You also referenced "winning," which is a subjective term. If you mean a survivor escaping the match, roughly 50% of the time they do globally, according to the dev's. If you mean advancing by at least 1 pip, that's far more common than escaping. Survivors don't have to escape in order to win a match in terms of advancing in rank. However, killers are required to kill most of the time in order to advance, just because of the way the emblem system works. Killers need multiple hooks and kills in order to pip, most of the time, or to secure significant bloodpoints.
For example, from TrU3's challenge, in the video above, he only safety pip'ed despite getting 2 kills. Another match at Rank 2, he killed two survivors, but still only barely safety pip'ed:
You can see the match here, and it begins at roughly the 5 hour mark:
So, why are killers upset about the changes to Prove Thyself? Because speeding up the rate at which generators can be completed means the survivors have to make mistakes more frequently which the killer can capitalize on in order to end chases and get kills. It's that simple. Prove Thyself is especially troublesome because not every survivor in a match needs to run it in order for every survivor to receive the speed benefits of the perk. Meaning, every survivor effected by Prove Thyself, who didn't bring it, effectively has a fifth perk slot. Killers do not.
Instead, killers can only attempt to counter Prove Thyself with Discordance instead of other perks which could be more useful in ending chases. And while Prove Thyself always means generators are done much faster with 2 or more survivors working together, Discordance is no guarantee that the killer is able to cross the map in time to pause the progress on that generator.
All of this is easily demonstrable by the overall player base and what they choose to play. If killers were so overpowered that they win matches "by miles" and always have, a higher percentage of the player base would be playing killer, but they aren't. For example, only 1.9% of the player base has earned the achievement "A Feast for the Entity," requiring 1,000 sacrifices. "Legendary Killer," or reaching Rank 1 with killer has only been earned by 2.2%. "Master Killer," or reaching Rank 5, has only been achieved by 3.1%. "Legendary Survivor," by contrast, has been earned by 4.1% of the player base. "Master Survivor" has been earned by 5.7%. Meaning, nearly twice as many of the players who have played consistently enough to reach rank 5, or rank 1, have done so as survivor without ever bothering to do the same as killer.
Now, if what you were claiming were true and recognized throughout the community, the opposite should be true. The rate of achievements should be reversed. Lobbies should be closer to what we saw during the Hallowed Blight, where so many people were playing killer that getting a lobby full of people willing to play survivor was a huge pain, but it isn't. Queues are reasonably fast for both sides, despite requiring 4 more people willing to play survivor than killer.
Now, I've used global statistics, and example after example of highly skilled players and what they encounter. By contrast, you cited your "long experience" of killers "winning by miles." May I suggest that the problems you encounter as survivor may be you, and the people you're playing with, and not indicative of the mechanics and nature of the game?
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@BOGUEINATOR said:
Oh cry me a river. 2 minutes? Lol! That's if you just stand about and leave them to work on it. Plus I've barely seen any survivors play prove thyself any more than they have before. Just get better at the game.Your response demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanics and nature of the game. Or, you're just a troll.
It's hard to decide if someone's an idiot or an ass, sometimes, but let me know if you'd like it explained. I'd be happy to.
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@Dspigroach said:
This post is pretty much entirely true, you can't please survivors. If you do gens then go to check on the hook you'll get called a camper, if you see the unhook then do thr logical thing and go after the one hit survivor you'll get called a tunneler.It's survivor entitlement. Basically only they are allowed to have fun whereas you the killer are supposed to let them infinite loop then tbag otherwise you are toxic, generally the most salty survivors are the tbaggers and one's that run ds.
Just face camp tbaggers so they lose their precious pips which they all care about for some reason.
It reminds me of a match I played on a new account, with a level 1, rank 20 Hillbilly, with only Enduring 1. I faced a SWF group, who all were running a full set of tier 3 perks. Awesome matchmaking. Anyway, I did manage the 4k, but because I would chainsaw the survivor who farmed (and let the person being farmed go), I was attacked in the post match chat. You can't win, really.
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@Poweas said:
Tru3 messed up a lot. I even pointed it out to him in his comments. He could have slugged and won. Anyone who understands what Nurse is like in high ranks without Ruin where the survivors constantly rush gens would agree.I would disagree with you for several reasons.
First of all, you're assuming Tru3's matches are like yours or mine, and they aren't. During his challenge, and particularly at the end, he was going against a lot of stream snipers, and a lot of SWF groups that had at least 1 stream sniper. Even if it might be argued that this match or that match didn't have a sniper, Tru3 has to go in assuming they are. Therefore, if he made slugging a more prominent part of his strategy, they would have brought in perks and items specifically to counter that.
Secondly, he wasn't necessarily going for kills; he was going for pips. They aren't the same thing: hooking the same survivors several times is worth more to him than killing them on the first hook. So, slugging might have gotten more kills, but it probably would have been worse towards his goal of pipping up to rank 1. What he needed was to hook survivors, have them saved, and hook them again, and again. Slugging generally runs counter to that goal because of the third point...
Third, slugging can be effective, but in fewer circumstances than a lot of killers seem to believe. It's effective only if the slugging generates more hooks later, and the times that's true are not frequent. It's a gamble, but a one that can be calculated. If I'm a survivor and I see someone slugged while I'm working on a generator, I'm under very little pressure to abandon the generator to go for the pick-up. Slugs get a lot of time on the floor, and can use it to recover themselves and move to an optimal position to be picked up without putting other survivors in danger. So, slugging in this example generates less pressure, and deprives the killer of the hook credit.
When it can be effective is when other survivors are nearby, and can be hit or downed quickly before putting the slug on the hook. In that case, abandoning a chase in order to get a hook, and letting the survivors go to hide is the worse tactical decision. But, again, it's a gamble. Tru3 went against a team in Ormond who all brought insta heals, which means if he'd have slugged them he would have been deprived of 4 hooks without generating any pressure or stopping any significant momentum. And again, he has to go into every match assuming they know who they're facing, what he's bringing, and his tactics generally.
At Rank 1, I can play a Nurse without Ruin and generate a great deal of map pressure without slugging, unless it fits the criteria I mentioned above. Granted, a nurse moves slowly and therefore spends more time getting survivors to the hook, but that's completely overshadowed by the use of BBQ and Chili, which (even at rank 1) usually generates a new target for me to blink to and apply additional pressure, pushing the new target off a gen, and forcing a different survivor to abandon their generator in order to make the hook save. If, on the other hand, I were to slug without knowing where my next target was, I would generate far less pressure and waste more of my time looking rather than chasing and downing.
In the case of Tru3's challenge, this was even more the case because he wasn't bringing Nurse's Calling, and they knew he wasn't bringing NC, and could therefore pick up slugs inside his terror radius without fear of being seen.
So "anyone who understands what Nurse is like in high ranks without Ruin..." seems very much like an exaggeration. Tru3 certainly understands what Nurse is like at high ranks, with and without Ruin, as do I.
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@Jack11803 said:
Not at all. They waste time that could be spent running away. The post after mine explained this. Read.Like all those pro players who run after dropping a pallet, instead of waiting to see if the killer circles it or kicks it. That's when I see teabags, when they'd be stupid to keep running and abandon an unbroken pallet that they could jump over if I tried to go around.
So, instead of being condescending and dismissive, maybe you should think a little harder.
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@shanks3042 said:
@thesuicidefox said:
Also for extra points.
But the trap pick up is also gaining extra points.
The bug was, instead of picking up the survivor, they would stay in the trap even though they appeared on the floor. You could drag a survivor quite a ways until they freed themselves, at which point you had to hit them again anyway.
By hitting before they tried to pick up, it would ensure that the pick-up worked without the bug.
No0b3 ran into it a couple times, video queue'ed to the correct time, but if it isn't, it's at 3:06:
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They've said they're unlikely to do another licensed killer.
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@Drearystate said:
At issue is that DBD isn't balanced, and I'm not simply pointing out the asymmetry, but that it is balanced greatly in the survivors' favor.
There's no need to take my word for it, you can see it yourself in the red ranks. Where as killers have a hard skill cap, where no matter how perfectly they play, they have to rely on survivors making mistakes in order to win a match. If survivors don't make mistakes, the killer can't win.
For instance, 4 survivors are perfectly capable of completing 4 gens in under 5 minutes, even against the Nurse, even when she's chasing and hooking them. Tru3ta1ent ran into this problem most recently when trying to get to rank 1 with no perks or add-on's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP8t3FpriOgOkay, sure, he was playing without perks or add-on's, but he was still playing Nurse, and he still brought all his considerable skill to bear on the matches. Still, just single pip'ing was extremely difficult, even when he managed a 3k, he would frequently only safety pip.
So, what is a killer to do, if they aren't playing Nurse, against a team of good survivors?
Should survivors not return to a nearly completed gen, if the killer has kicked it? Isn't that the same as "tunneling?" Aren't you depriving the killer of points because you're optimizing your advantage to make the match end faster?
Why is it okay for survivors to do it, when they're the team with the advantage to begin with, but not okay if the killer does it?
Why do survivors camp infinite loops? Isn't returning to the same long loop, in order to deprive the killer of downing a survivor, every time the killer finds you, the same as the killer staying near a hooked survivor?
Why is it okay for survivors to use map locations to their advantage, but the same isn't true for killers?
I'll never understand why, not just in DBD but in the world generally, people decide that 1 group is disadvantaged, and are therefore free to use any tactics they want, while the other team is not. Particularly true when the team free to play by any rules they want are the ones who, in fact, have every advantage to begin with.
Look over these forums, and you'll see a whole lot of complaining about camping and "tunneling," while killer complaints such as "stop teabagging," and "stop the toxic post-game chat," are told they need to grow up and get a thicker skin.
The fact is, survivors will do whatever they can to survive the match. The killer will do whatever they can to get as many kills as possible. You may not like their methods, but then you should use whatever tools and tactics you can to counter them.
Outside of that, you're free to complain all you want, but you'll learn, like I have, that it does nothing but earn you insults. Until the mechanics of the game are changed, the sorts of tactics you're describing won't. You don't have to like it, but you should at least understand that against the vast majority of killers, the survivor team only loses the match because they gave the killer chances to capitalize on their mistakes, and the killer did.
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@Jack11803 said:
@TheWraith883 said:
@Vietfox said:
You should stop being bothered by people spamming the crouch key. It's just a game...Then survivors shouldn't be bothered when the killer tunnel or camp it's just a way of playing.
Both of those effect you in game. T-bagging actually benefits killers. Your logic is non existent
Oooohhh! I didn't realize! Teabaggers do it to help the killer! Here I thought it was intended to taunt them into doing something they may not otherwise, like following a specific survivor, or as a "Hey, I know how to press my space bar and drop a pallet! hahahaha," sort of thing. Now that I know they do it to help me, I'll be sure to thank them!
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@DarqPhoenix said:
why are people so whiny. literally it's the crouch button, if you actually get mad at that (and especially go out of your way to ruin their game in another match) you are extremely sad, you are playing a video game. lighten up, get your bloodpoints and move on. turn the chat off if you don't want to listen to end game chat. and also people saying crap like "how can you defend survivors" you sound like a neckbearded redditor crying bc you got beat. IT'S A VIDEO GAME. grow up and learn to have some thick skin, you're on the internet.Let's take an example at the extreme, and maybe that will make the point. If you follow tru3ta1ent's stream, it won't take long to notice there is a particular player who always stream snipes him. Okay, that's not a huge deal, except the other guy finds tru3 in the match, and sets off every noise notification he can, in order to get the killer to focus on tru3.
Once he's done that, he'll do other things, like farming tru3 off the hook, or using healing to prevent him running away, or anything he can do to get tru3 killed and ruin his game.
After the match, the other player will offer insults and even death threats against tru3 in the post-match chat. I have no idea how many times tru3, who the Devs like enough that they've added multiple cosmetics to the game for him, has reported the guy, but it's been plenty of times over enough time that something should have been done. And yet, nothing has.
From your point of view, tru3 should grow a thicker skin and accept this sort of toxicity as just another game on the internet. On the other hand, I believe the guy either needs serious mental help, or a firm ass kicking. And if, by some random twist of fate, tru3 had the chance to take some small revenge against the guy in-game, I wouldn't blame him in the least, or call it "extremely sad."
It may be on a smaller scale, but the toxic comments I see in game come from the same state of mind. If it's butthurt people who can't stand dying, or even the disgusting sexual remarks I've seen directed at women, it's those comments and actions that are the problem, not the people who are sick of seeing it.
Where as you condone that, I have to disagree.
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@Boss said:
Lol, that last picture.
"I DON'T KNOW, SO YOU SUCK!"Yeah, the best I could figure was that they wanted free hook saves. Meaning, when someone was farmed off the hook, they wanted both the person being saved and the farmer to be able to run away freely, where as I chainsawed the person doing the farming, and let the other run off as not to tunnel.
I thought it would have been an educational experience for them, but I guess not. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
EDIT: the "Lion King" remark was because I was playing Huntress with her purple set. I don't really understand why they thought it was bad, but I guess when you can't reach for anything else...
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@fluffybunny said:
I couldn't agree more hehe. It's very addictive and can be extremely frustrating. I know I took a break a while back 'cause it was frustrating me, but I feel it's a game I always come back to. OMG, a shy Mikey build? lol That sounds adorable. How do you do it? Yeah, I like to change it up and play around, too. x3 Might as well~I've done it with Mikey, though it can work better on Clown. Basically, you only run bamboozle, with no add-on's or offerings. Find a corner to peak around, but when they see you and run one way, you run the other. They'll usually follow, for some reason. Just find a new corner to peek, and keep running back while they chase you. The idea is to lose them, which isn't easy with a terror radius, but use bamboozle and the Clown's smoke to cut off windows and escape.
There's no point to it, it's just being silly. There are a few places on a few maps, like the God rock in McMillan's Estate, that not a lot of people know they can climb, and you can go up there and lord it over them until they figure it out.
Oddly, the same tactic worked when I was going for Evil Incarnate for the first time. The survivors thought I was just messing around until I got perma T3 with Judith's Tombstone. Afterward, I was told I was "very not nice."
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@DarqPhoenix said:
why are people so whiny. literally it's the crouch button, if you actually get mad at that (and especially go out of your way to ruin their game in another match) you are extremely sad, you are playing a video game. lighten up, get your bloodpoints and move on. turn the chat off if you don't want to listen to end game chat. and also people saying crap like "how can you defend survivors" you sound like a neckbearded redditor crying bc you got beat. IT'S A VIDEO GAME. grow up and learn to have some thick skin, you're on the internet.Wait... so, attempting to insult other players is something to be gotten over, and people who attempt to insult others is just the way it is? I'm sorry, but I'm a little lost in your logic there. So, one player being toxic is fine, whatever, grow up and grow a thicker skin. But responding to that toxicity in-game is "extremely sad."
"Turn chat off if you don't want to listen to end game chat," is your answer to people acting completely inappropriately after a match. So, one player shouldn't be able to offer a "gg," or chat friendly with others because some people are dicks, and throw racial and homophobic slurs in the post-game chat?
As examples:
What I think you're missing is that people shouldn't be doing things like that, because it is a game. SWF are typically more toxic than solo survivors, though that's not universal, it's just more common. Kids try to impress each other, or emulate people on youtube they've seen, or just find comfort and strength in their numbers after the match, where solo survivors who died would have left the lobby long before. That's part of the reason SWF's are often dodged, among other reasons.
But, it seems like you're suggesting the problem is with people who try to stand up to bullies, not the bullies themselves, which is completely backward. Yes, it's the internet, but that isn't an excuse. You're suggesting that if you play a video game, you should expect and accept you should accept these things, but taking them out of the next game via tunneling or camping is "extremely sad."
I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. If they're kids, and their parents aren't beating their asses for behaving like that, for the good of society, I'm happy to. If they're adults and they're acting like that, they've needed to be put in their place for a very long time anyway.
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@Milord said:
Is it bad that I recognize all of these points just from thread's title? I usually don't open salty post, but damn, do I know all of these.Yeah, they're common refrains killers hear. Today was actually better than most, and out of around 20 games, I was only cursed at three times. That's pretty good for me. It's usually at least half if I don't dodge SWF.
@fluffybunny said:
That's good. I'm doing well! Just got into a new game (Niche, it's addictive) and was spending the weekend with a friend.
Was showing her how to play the game since it was a free weekend and I wanted to see if she could play it on her lappy. How about you?Oh, you know, I hung a few people on meat hooks, dismembered a few others, the usual things. It is a very addictive game, and it can also be extremely frustrating. When it gets to that point, I just pull out my "shy Mikey" build and run away from survivors instead of chasing them. Or, get some friends with party starters to throw a random killer an exciting welcome in the washroom of The Game.
How did your friend do on the laptop?
As for deranking, some of it is just players being jerks. You'll see it when they join a lobby with no offerings or add-on's, and then DC as soon as the game loads. They're just de-pip'ing themselves by losing over and over again quickly. Others, who go beyond de-piping, use software to manipulate their steam account. I don't know how that interacts with Behavior, but we have a discussion going on about it here:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/284634
I did an experiment by creating a brand new account, starting at level 1 and rank 20. Out of 4 games, three had players who I had a hard time explaining how they got so many great perks without ever getting up to rank 15.
In any case, when you are playing killer, just remember to follow the rules above, and you'll have a great game!
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@fluffybunny said:
Someone being salty made you salty, I take it?Awww! No! I thought of it more as a humorous commentary on the stigmas that surround killers among a certain population of the game.
I take my share of salt, don't get me wrong, but I'm beyond being insulted by it. The only thing that really bothers me is seeing rank 18 players with 4 tier 3 teachable perks... obviously, deranking themselves, even beyond normal methods of losing matches, in order to face brand new killers, for easy matches or to bully.
Outside of that, I'm not salty. How are you?
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I don't know that I'd call searching for the hatch "holding the game hostage." There are instances where you'll kill 2 with 5 gens left, and the remaining people hide in lockers for a long time. It's annoying, but then so are face camping killers.
There isn't a lot that can be done about it, aside from making a mental note of who behaves like that, and dodging them later if it bothered you so much.
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@snoopy said:
Hi, I was wondering, what if I hit max level with, for example, claudette. One week later I unluck dead hard teachable. Will there be a way to teach claudette dead hard at that point or is the bloodweb locked when hitting max level?
Thanks in advanceThe different survivors are only skins. Meaning, every survivor can learn every survivor perk, and the only difference between them in the end is what they look like.
The max level is 50, but once you're there you can repeat the level 50 bloodweb an unlimited number of times to get new perks you've unlocked.
Alternatively, you can prestige your character 3 times, getting a new "bloody" cosmetic each time you do. The bloody cosmetics are the survivor's default skin, covered in gore. However, when you prestige a character, they lose every perk they've unlocked and all items and add-on's you've collected to that point. Basically, they start over all the way back at level 1.
This is my P3 David King, with everything unlocked:
There are 59 current survivor perks, each with 3 tiers to them, which means you'll need to go through 177 bloodwebs to max a character out after you've unlocked all the teachable perks.
Unlocking all the perks for a survivor is a good idea if you're going to play the game a good bit. My default load out is Self Care from Claudette, Distortion from Jeff, Balanced Landing from Nea, and Iron Will from Jake, but there are any number of other builds you can try and see what works best for you. For example, Lithe from Feng, Dance with Me from Kate, and Quick and Quiet from Nea can be awesome for escaping a killer during a chase. And, every few months, a new killer and survivor are added, with 3 new perks to unlock each, and there's no telling in advance what you could combine with the new perks to make a great build.
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@powerbats said:
I am forever in need of extra Bloodpoints. All my killers have every perk in the game, with the exception of my Legion, who did, before I decided to prestige them. That said, because killers are far more add-on dependent than survivors, we burn through more points collecting them than they do. Particularly since they can pick up items / add-on's in-game, where we can't.
Because of the rarity of add-on's, while one might in itself cost only 5,000 or 6,000 bloodpoints, you may have to spend 50,000 or 100,000 going through bloodwebs to find it.
I know, I know, killers can play without add-on's, much less the best add-on's, but on killers who are more add-on dependent, such as Freddy and Wraith, those make for some long and very boring games. Not to mention, there are new characters every few months to level up and deck out, in addition to adding the new perks to existing characters you already have. (With 14 killers, each needing 3 tiers of 3 perks, and lvl 50 bloodwebs costing roughly 50,000 points, that's roughly 6,300,000 bloodpoints just to get the new perks on old killers).
So, that's a long way of saying, I simply can't relate to not knowing what to do with bloodpoints, ever. And even though it's been suggested countless times, and even though Behavior doesn't appear to think much of the idea, it's the best solution I can think of to solve the problem of dodging lobbies / SWF queue times, without disturbing the rest of the game.
At this point, I'm afraid of changes to balance, not only because it's a nearly impossible task but because every change they make seems to break half a dozen things that are working now. (See: current game sounds, fake Doctor pallets, fake Doctors, Sloppy Butcher on Wraith, visual notifications, loading into a match, etc, etc, etc...)
As for Franklin's vs flashlights, I've thought of using it, of course. But it's more a mentality of the survivors I'm facing: they're going into the game wanting to frustrate the hell out of me, and it's a lose/lose proposition for me. Either they will succeed, and I'll have a bad time, or they'll fail, in which case I'll face all the salt and cursing in the post-game chat. There's a certain satisfaction in crushing people like that, but in the end, they just aren't people I want to play with.
It's the same as players who derank in order to bully the other side. In those matches, it doesn't really matter if you "win" or not: playing against people who go into a match wanting to ruin someone else's game are ######### and bullies, and regardless of the results of the match, it's a pain in the ass to deal with them. So, to the extent that I can control who I go against, I do.
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I can agree that a lot of SWF are potatoes... myself included. And, yes, they do often tend to be overly altruistic to their own detriment. But I still point to the advantages SWF have over solo's and killers as reason I don't blame killers for dodging lobbies.
I don't generally dodge lobbies unless I see a bunch of flashlights, because I know what they're all going to try to do, and I'd rather not have to play extra sweaty, or slug, or eat a bunch of blinds. That isn't fun for me, so I don't do it. For the same reasons, I can't blame a killer who dodges a SWF group.
As for balancing, it isn't something Behavior has been able to do thus far. Giving solo survivors a buff isn't restricted only to solo survivors, the SWF get it to. Then killers need to be buffed to compete against SWF, which puts solos back at the bottom of the totem pole... round and round it goes. The best I've seen so far is the upcoming change to hide the killer's load out until the game is done, but I'm skeptical that it'll change much. It's a good change, but far from achieving balance.
Instead, the changes they're making to the way survivors join lobbies, all at once, takes away the choice from killers on if they face a SWF or solo survivors. Short of pulling up their profiles and looking for friends, or if the survivors all use similar names or cosmetics, the killer isn't going to know.
Which brings me back to what I think would be fair and equitable for all involved. If killers face SWF, or survivors above their own ranking because of the SWF matchmaking, I believe they should be rewarded for the harder match with a bloodpoint bonus. It would help killers who are willing to take on the (generally) more difficult match, it would help SWF because there would be fewer dodges, and it wouldn't disrupt game balance. Say, a 10% bonus for each additional SWF. So, a 2 man team gives 10%, 3 man 20%, 4 man 30%. Nothing crazy, but enough to offset the more difficult match and the decreased chance of getting a bunch of kills.
I'd even take it a step further and reward survivors who, because of SWF matchmaking, face killers with a better rank, bonus bloodpoints as well. Chances are good, after all, that they don't know how to run ideal paths, or where to look for pallets and windows, and they'll die much faster.
Hell, they could probably even manage to add it in without breaking game sounds, lighting or mechanics. Maybe.
Now if we could only have the option of turning off post-match chat...
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@powerbats said:
You're forgetting the perks that while not as powerful as voice comms do give good info like bond etc.I think the point is that solo survivors are required to use perks like Bond, Empathy, Detective's Hunch, etc... to gain the information shared by SWF, which comes at no cost to the SWF's. You could see the voice comms as freeing up a perk slot, or as giving the SWF players an extra slot or two that solo survivors don't get. In either case, their overall build is all the stronger for it.
Now as for your heavily biased claims let's put the nail in that coffin right now since you're choosing the most biased figure which accounts for the least part of the population.
4 strangers = 30%
2 friends + 2 strangers = 34.1%
2 friends + 2 friends = 9.5%
3 friends + 1 stranger = 17.9%
4 friends = 8.5%So 8.5 of lobbies are a 4 man swf group giving communication and despite all the horribly histrionic claims by the biased killer mains 4 man swat teams aren't that common.
You're also ignoring al the times survivors communicate in lobby about items to take, what stuff they're taking, are they running DS/OoO, looping, insta heals, running Deliverance etc.
Then lets not forget that there are groups of solo players that just plain know what they're doing and pay attention to what's going on. I've been part of those 4 man solo groups and we've absolutely wrecked the killer because we played smart and the killer didn't.
This isn't about an easy experience except for the whiny killer mains that want to blame every loss on swf even when it wasn't swf or they just got flat outplayed.
It's hypocritical to complain about swf when you lose or just play badly but when you destroy them because the vast majority are casuals and generally screw around. You don't come to the forums and complain about destroying them because they were so easy to beat.
The old adage be careful what you wish for comes to mind because if it's solo only you're going to be left facing the solo only players that know what they're doing.
At that point you'll have no more excuses to use because you'll have long lobby wait times, the swat team players will be left and you won't be getting anymore buffs to take you to the level of facing swf.
Sure, there's no promise that people who queue solo are worse players than SWF, and there's no promise that only going against solo players will generate a win. That said, SWF does come with great advantages that the same players wouldn't have if they queue'd solo.
There's also the problem of matchmaking with the ranking system. If you're a mid-rank killer, any SWF group may very well have one or two red ranked survivors who can easily out-play you. Call it what you want, but for mid-ranked killers, there's a good chance they'll get bullied by far more experienced survivors in a SWF match.
So, with the survivors having advantages, such as voice comms, and the likelihood of facing far out-ranked survivors, why would a killer not dodge the lobby? When compared with facing solo survivors, there's a better chance that the killer will get more kills and more points since the solo survivors won't have those advantages. Of course, in any match, the killer may get out-played, but it is more likely against SWF teams.
It's all down-side for the killer. So again, what incentive is there for the killer to play the match and not dodge the lobby? Now, if Behavior added in bonus points when facing a SWF team, that would make sense and give us a reason not to dodge the lobby. Or, extra points for facing survivors above our own rank. But neither of those seem likely. So, keep queue'ing as SWF, and you'll get matches sooner or later, and you can have your fun. But don't blame killers who'd rather not go through the headache.
Lastly, in my experience, SWF groups are far more toxic than solos. This isn't necessarily in the match, though there are plenty of teams out there that want to be the next No0b3, and frustrate the hell out of the killers, but more so in the post-match chat. Solo survivors who die before the end of the match will usually leave the lobby immediately, but this isn't so for SWF, who spectate until the last of them dies or escapes. If the killer does well, it's a lot of cursing, name calling and accusations to explain away why their team was crushed. If the survivors do well, and they escape, it's a lot of trying to rub it in the killer's face.
It isn't universal, of course, but it is far from uncommon. I have plenty of video and screenshots, if you care to see.
On the other hand, I faced a "hook camping" Wraith tonight. In the match, I did 4 gens, 1 of the 3 hook saves, and opened the exit gate, but one of the other survivors decided to curse at the Wraith for proxy camping the hooks. Myself and another solo survivor stuck up for the Wraith, pointing out that when survivors loop the killer around the hook, that's not exactly "camping" or "toxic" play. I was more pissed that none of the other survivors seemed to be doing much during the match. But, if it had been a 4 man SWF, it's unlikely one of the others would have spoken up for the killer against his friend. It gets really old to be cursed at for doing well, and cursed at for not doing well, and cursed at for daring to play the game at all.
So, to sum it up: as the killer you can go against a SWF team, knowing they have significant advantages over solo survivors, there's an increased likelihood of toxicity, and decreased likelihood of significant points. Or, you can dodge the lobby and try for some solo survivors. It isn't exactly a tough choice.
I realize SWF groups want their games too, but from the killer point of view, it's all downside. That's why you get dodged. I guess that's the price you pay for the advantages you bring into the match, and how far too many players behave after the match.
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@LegitAdventurer said:
A message to all killers. I never understood why people are afraid to fight any sort of survivors. Are you not a confident killer? Do you think you're bad? I don't get it. I understand killers have almost instantaneous wait times but survivors do not. I can't tell you how annoying it is to wait 10-15 minutes to find a game just to get dodged, sometimes 3 or 4 times in a row.Stop being afraid of SWF groups, half the time i get dodged I'm only a group of 2 people. Sometimes people join up all at once, regardless of them being in a SWF together or not. Ontop of killers being afraid of specific survivors (???) I still dont understand that stigma. "Ope nope. I can't kill them, they have a claudette on the team. Time to dodge"
So TLDR killers, please stop dodging us. We understand you find games instantly but we do not.
-sincerely,
survivors and our ridiculous wait times.I'll dodge a SWF team that comes in with four flashlights. Obviously, they're looking to frustrate me as much as possible, which means I'll have to play extra sweaty to counter it. It isn't a matter of confidence, it's a matter of annoyance. Particularly considering if I'm facing a SWF team, I'm far more likely to burn my best add-on's, but get the same or fewer points as my reward.
But SWF are a pain in the ass anyway. In solo queue matches, if I catch a survivor at my totem, or they happen to loop me past it, only that survivor knows where it is, and I can focus extra attention on them. In SWF, everyone knows. This goes for trap placement and perks as well. If I surprise one survivor with Spirit Fury, I can still use that against the next survivor, and then the next... except in SWF. Once it's used the first time, all the survivors know and will throw pallets earlier to nullify my perk. The same can be done to nullify Make Your Choice and many other perks which, more or less, depend on survivors behaving in particular ways. With traps, since one person seeing it placed means everyone knows, the other members of the team can move in behind me and disarm or remove the trap they never would have otherwise known was there.
Furthermore, relatively few SWF groups are what they should be. If I'm a rank 10 killer, for example, and a SWF team joins in, I may be facing two rank 1's, along with a 15 and 10. Obviously, for less experienced killers, the match is going to go very differently and far more frustratingly than against four players with more or less the same experience and skill as himself.
What's really funny though are how many survivors, who play SWF primarily, complain that they face Nurse, Billy and Spirit in almost every match. The killer may not have planned to play those killers, but to counter SWF, they are the best choices.
Of course, you know all this, because these are the advantages you enjoy while playing SWF. That you're complaining that another player may not want to play against that demonstrates just how little empathy you have for other players. I'd recommend you stop complaining about being dodged, and make suggestions for how to make matchmaking better, or how to give Killers some other balance when facing SWF teams, or at least an incentive to play against them.
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@TatsuiChiyo said:
Recently my killer bloodweb is giving me an offering that allows me to play as Freddy, with my perks and add one being unable to be used for the hunt. Now I understand doing this if I didn't own Freddy, give me a taste, but I already own him, so my question is why?My understanding is that the splinters will show up in a bloodweb until you purchase the DLC. If you purchase the killer and survivor for cells, but don't purchase the DLC, they will still show up.
Obviously, it's unnecessary, but not a huge deal since you can usually avoid them on the bloodweb before moving on to the next web.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
This post couldn't be further from the truth. Billy in my opinion is one of the most difficult killers to play effectively.And let me emphasize that word: effectively
If you're only interested in playing Billy at a mediocre level, then yes, he's not that hard to play.
But if you want to play Billy at a high level (which means being able to compete with skilled survivors), then that will require a significant amount of skill and experience.
The reason for this is because Billy requires quite a bit of mechanical skill. If you want to beat good survivors, then you will have to pull off some difficult chainsaws.
You'll need to know how to chainsaw at loops, such as the killer shack. Map knowledge pretty much ties in with this.
You'll also need to know how to land chainsaws against survivors that 360. This is also can be very difficult depending on the survivor. And of course, some survivors are just good at faking out the saw in general.
Q and E (which is what I use) can make these tasks easier, but even still, those controls take a long time to master.
This whole idea that Billy is an easy killer is simply false. Try playing Billy against survivors like Noob3 or Vooshy and watch what happens. I'm willing to bet most Billy players get wrecked.
I would agree with everything here. Playing billy at rank 15 is very different from playing him at rank 1, and it's not without a significant amount of skill.
You can say Legion is brainless, since he can bypass all survivor defenses without much skill. But not Billy, who still has to deal with windows and pallets before he lands a hit. Regardless of rank, he's good at map pressure, but that means little if you can't seal the deal and earn hooks.
Take the survivor who dodges and weaves every time you prep your chainsaw: an unskilled player will wiff every time. A skilled Billy will be able to track and anticipate their movements for the down. Saving a few seconds, maybe, but earning incredible pressure in the meantime.
For the record, I avoid playing Billy whenever I can: it's sad how bad I am with him as compared with Nurse and Spirit, who I have practiced significantly and am at least mediocre at playing. I have no problem admitting I'm a weak Billy killer. By the same token, I would strongly deny he's a brainless killer, or one needed to make kills without significant practice when you're talking about the red ranks.
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@fluffybunny said:
I've been camped and farmed nearly every game today. So, I can understand where you're coming from, but toxic SWF who don't like the killer for whatever reason are gonna use that to harass the killer. It's 4 against 1 and bias grows in groups.I'd honestly like if they would create a personal stat for you where you could "+" or "-" players and it would show it on screen and inform you if the killer is a "+" or a "-" I dunno how hard something like that would be, though.
There is a program out there, and I don't know if it's blacklisted or not, but I do know a lot of players use it: Make Lobbies Great Again. The way I understand it, if a killer or survivor is a jerk, you can mark them through MLGA. If you get in their lobby again, or them in yours, you can dodge it because you know it's someone you don't want to play against.
Again, I don't know if it's okay to use or not; I've heard conflicting things. But, there should definitely be an option to turn off post-game chat. For survivors, they just wouldn't see it, for killers, it would be disabled entirely.
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I'd disagree for the simple fact that Billy is highly effective in a limited number of maps, without a decent amount of skill.
In the Corn Fields, sure, he's incredible at applying pressure anywhere he wants and jumping all over the map with no hesitation or worry. In most other maps, this isn't the case. Lery's is obviously the worst, since there are almost no straight lines that don't have all sorts of crap filling them, but the resort, The Game, Family Residence, etc... aren't all that much better. And good survivors know how to loop small objects, such as trees, to make using the chainsaw a waste of time for Billy.
Learning how and when to use the chainsaw makes Billy one of the harder killers to learn to be effective with in the red ranks, since nearly every survivor knows how to take advantage of an inexperienced or unskilled one. Like the Nurse, Billy has to be able to predict where the survivors will move when they hear the chainsaw behind them, since it is relatively easy to juke.
On the other hand, Spirit is able to travel much of the map extremely quickly, and between her ability and her animations, makes mind gaming her almost impossible. She requires two hits to down, but they aren't exceptionally difficult hits to land. Or, she can throw on Prayer Beads and grab survivors off generators without ever needing to swing her sword. And, she works on every map.
Legion, who can down with 3 strikes with Frank's Mix Tape and Stab Wound Study, or 2 with Cold Dirt and Joey's Mix Tape, and has almost no counter-play, as he's able to completely ignore pallets and windows. He requires less skill to make his kills than does Billy, and doesn't suffer from stuns or even a cooldown if he misses a swing while in Frenzy. And, he works on every map.
So, while I'd generally agree that Billy is very powerful, I would disagree with the idea that he doesn't require a deal of practice to be effective with in the red ranks, unless you have enough map offerings to always get the fields.
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Personally, I would take off Thanataphobia. It's not a great perk to begin with, even to slow down the game, and Pig doesn't have the ability to injure multiple people in quick succession, unless you happen to catch a couple together at the same time. If you aren't going to use Ruin to slow survivor momentum, then you don't want poor substitutes, but either something to speed up your ability to take momentum away, or something to make their momentum work in your favor.
For those reasons, I'd recommend either an insta-build: Make Your Choice and Devour Hope, mixed with chase ending perks like Spirit Fury and Enduring. Or, an end-game build with Blood Warden, NOED, and Remember Me; you could add Fire Up to that selection, and it's okay, but not the strongest perk out there.
In the insta-build, you're objective is to hook someone as quickly as you can. Hooking that player forces at least one other survivor to come for the save, which you can turn into a second hook quickly via Make Your Choice. In the best case, they recognize you have Make Your Choice and are more hesitant to go for hook saves, which robs them of a quarter of their momentum with each hook you make. Once you get three, if you protect your totem, the game is all but won.
In the second, you're hunting a particular survivor in the obsession. All the better if they have DS, since it gives you an extra stack on Remember Me. Once the last generator is complete, you're keeping them inside with wanting to save someone on the hook, as well as Remember Me, Blood Warden and your reverse bear traps not allowing them to leave.
I've always viewed end-game builds as extremely risky, and they aren't to my style, but I have seen them work and work very effectively.
What I see in the build you suggested is an attempt at a competitive early / mid game, while abandoning the strongest early / mid game perk in the game. It can work, and it can work really well in some games if the RNG and survivor mistakes are in your favor. If they aren't... it'll be painful.
I understand why people don't like relying on Ruin, since it can be broken very quickly in any given match. That said, it's purpose isn't to last all too long, not really, and you can't rely on that happening. Instead, Ruin is better viewed as a perk which exists to slow survivor momentum long enough for you to take control of the match.
We have to accept that survivors begin every match with 100% of the momentum. They start near generators and away from the killer. They can start work immediately, where the killer must first find, then chase a survivor to slow that momentum at all. So, ideal match progression goes:
Point in Game / Survivor Momentum
Start / 100%
1st Chase / 75%
1st Hook / 50% (One on hook, one going for the save).
2nd Chase / 25% (One on hook, or just taken off, one going for the save or making the heal, one in chase)
2nd Hook / 50%
...The longer you can maintain that snowball, the less time each survivor spends on a generator, and instead in chase / on the hook / making saves / healing... anything except generator progress. Even if they find your Ruin not long after the first hook is made, it has bought you enough time to begin your snowball.
If you aren't using Ruin, and you aren't using Nurse or Hillbilly, then you need to find another way to take control of their progress.
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@fluffybunny said:
Perhaps I'm weird, but I see it as a friendly competition and if I have fun 'cause it's tense and stuff, I want to let them know.That's what it's supposed to be. It is a game, after all.
Some people take it too seriously, and some people just get satisfaction out of being bullies. I don't get why, but that's what it is.
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@fluffybunny said:
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Same thing goes with toxicity. If you want to see less of something, you attempt to make yourself an example of the opposite of it. My point being this isn't just survivor "honor system," but killer, too, as there's things that survivors are expected not to do if they're not being toxic. To be nice and so on. It isn't just a one-sided thing. You can say that survivors are the only ones who can be toxic until you're blue in the face, but I'm pretty sure that's what camping and tunneling is. You're ruining the experience for someone else and if that's not toxic, nothing survivors could do naturally in the game is.Also, the biggest issue in this game is that kids are playing. Children don't know how to react to things and react in negative, childish ways (such as name-calling, etc.).
I don't think I ever said only survivors can be toxic, quite the opposite: I'm asking, why should killers not be toxic when this is what we get when we aren't:
At the time of the game, it was 12:30am, Eastern, on Sunday night/Monday morning. Okay, maybe they were west coast kids, just before bedtime, but it's quite the stretch to think that it's mostly kids when I play primarily during the weekdays and late at night (the times I'm not taking care of my own kids).
Not a single other survivor from that match said a thing, aside from piling on with more toxicity. You said, attempt to make yourself an example, and I do, but what I don't see are survivors calling each other out on being douchebags. That's my point. I see thread after thread complaining about camping and tunneling by the killers, but I don't see them standing up for killers who play the game as fair as possible, and then get crapped on in the post-match chat. After thousands, and thousands of matches in DBD, it's happened to me three times. Three. And I remember each one of them very well, because they are so rare, and those super rare times actually meant a lot to see people who "lost" actually act human after the match.
Now, if a survivor was frustrated and just left, I'm okay with that. I get it. Some matches are super frustrating if for no other reason than RNG didn't go your way, or someone has a lag spike that screws them, or the other survivors made no attempt to rescue them off the hook, or whatever the reason, it can be really frustrating some matches.
So, these are the choices I have as a killer: I can play nice and follow all the survivor rules and have slurs thrown at me after long matches, or I can tunnel the living hell out of survivor after survivor and suffer the same fate, just with less time invested.
Those aren't good options.
What I'm asking for in this thread is a third option, but it requires survivors who are willing to call out their teammates when they cross the line, or make unfounded accusations.
Or, better yet, if the dev's aren't willing to suspend and ban players who throw racial slurs around, and they clearly aren't, then give me the option of turning off post-match chat in my lobbies. I'm honestly sick of it.
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@fluffybunny said:
I heard someone call it an honor code of sorts. Killers don't camp and use NOED and survivors don't do stupid strong window loops every chance they get and run ds. I think bming would also be part of that, like teabagging at pallets and such. I think it's up to the person and I personally avoid getting downed to the best of my ability until the end. If you're first on hook, nothing's to discourage the killer from camping and if you're solo, no one may come until you're second stage anyway.Even with that said, by being toxic to people who aren't toxic to you, you're justifying them being toxic or you're creating toxicity. Being toxic towards people who didn't do anything to you are just going to annoy them and going to possibly create an us versus them scenario. We shouldn't be tearing each other down. We're playing a game together, just different roles. So, it should be fun for everyone, killer and survivor.
I'm not sure there's much more I could add to that photo than what is evident. It was my son's very first match as the Hillbilly, while I sat behind him trying to give any tips I could. He was level 1, with only tier 1 Enduring, and a crappy add-on to lessen the chainsaw noise. Against that, he faced a SWF, one of whom managed to de-rank himself below rank 15, 3 of whom were running all tier 3 perks. I find that a bit hard to swallow, given we're 1 day before the reset, that none of those three experienced survivors managed to rank up above 12 in a month.
This shouldn't have been a close match, even against Hillbilly. Instead, they managed to do only 2 gens. My son didn't camp the hook unless he was being looped around it, and he didn't "tunnel" unless the last person taken off the hook was the next one found as he searched without any perks to assist him in the hunt (such as BBQ and Chili, Nurse's Calling, Whispers, etc).
He didn't allow the last alive to get the hatch, but managed to down the guy before he could make the escape, though it was very close.
But because people cheat to de-rank themselves to the point of only facing brand new killers, in order to get easy wins and bully the killer during the match, they throw homophobic slurs when they still lose to a competent gamer. Of course, there was no way for my son to know they were more experienced than they ought to be at that rank, particularly this close to the monthly reset, as they were all running the base cosmetics.
What are people brand new to the game supposed to take away from toxic players like this, who try their best to torment and frustrate them as much as possible throughout the game? The killer comes away from those matches either completely frustrated as the experienced survivors endlessly loop and blind them, or they pull out a good win, and face this sort of post-match abuse. Are they likely to keep loading up the game and pushing forward, knowing things are only likely to get harder?
We're back full circle: why should killers play by these made up rules, or "honor system," when the Claudette they're chasing is just as likely a Rank 1, who de-ranked themselves, as a player fairly new to the game like themselves? Why should they play nice when playing nice earns them abuse in the post chat?
As I said before, if you want fewer toxic killers, stick up for the ones who do try to play a fair match. If you want killers to play by your honor system, it's worth offering them some positive response when they do. Because these are the types of things we do see, every day, and you either have a sense of humor about it or you just get sick of it and quit, or quit playing by these "rules."
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@tennmio said:
RoKrueger said:We killers don't play by the survivors made up rules, we just kill and don't mind what the pray has to say. Kill them, KILL THEM ALL >_<
We are all ppl that are trying to have fun while they don't have to work.
Fairplay is s.th that exists since we invented games and competition it's not s.th "made up by survivors". Fairplay is common sense.
Actually, common sense would be to play by and respect the rules established by the game itself; that's fair play. Outside of that, the "rules" regarding what killers should and should not do were established by survivors who didn't want to compete only by the rules laid down in the game.
That isn't to say I don't understand how frustrating it can be to face a killer who camps or tunnels needlessly. I've faced my fair share of them as well, and I get why it can be so infuriating, but that isn't the same thing as the killer not playing fair, or according to the actual rules.
The original purpose of this thread was to demonstrate how killers are routinely falsely attacked in chat and on these boards for not following what survivors believe the rules ought to be. Likely because some survivors can't handle being killed, even when they live long enough to pip and get a lot of points. And further, if that's the case, there's absolutely no reason for killers to try play to their own disadvantage in order to accommodate survivors.
It's a sword that cuts both ways: if survivors want killers to play by and accept their "rules" for how killers should play, they have to respect killers and not insult them in chat and on these boards when the killer does try to play by those rules. And, even if the killer doesn't, comments like the one originally posted are completely out of line.
Yes, it is a commentary on how toxic and salty many members of the DBD community are, and no, I don't believe this thread or a thousand more like it will change that. However, survivors who are concerned about killers playing by their rules for what the killer should and should not do, ought to be calling out their teammates who engage in that behavior.
The reason for it is very simple, and I'll use the original post as an example. If I were infuriated and angry about what that survivor said to me post-match, there isn't much I can do to retaliate against that survivor, unless they happen to land in my lobby again. I can, however, say "f their rules," and take out my frustration on the next group of survivors. Maybe I'd finally try out that insidious Leatherface build to find some catharsis.
Obviously, answering toxicity with toxicity isn't the answer, but I have no doubt it's very often the result. It isn't exactly fair to the next lobby of survivors, but I find little reasons for empathy when none is displayed on the other side of the fence. So, if you want fewer toxic killers, push your fellow survivors to be less toxic as well.
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@Morfedel said:
But I guess this is a very long winded way of asking, just when IS it appropriate to camp, and when isn't it? They seemed to act that even with the gates powered and even with them rushing in to save someone, I shouldn't have been doing that. Was I in the wrong?Thanks in advance.
It's okay whenever it's to your tactical advantage.
For example, if you have a three gen trifecta, and hook a survivor in the center of it. It's absolutely okay for you to proxy camp them while you maintain map control.
If the doors are powered and you down and hook a survivor, it's usually to your advantage to camp the area than it would be to run to the opposite side of the map. That's just common sense.
If it's to your tactical advantage, you should do it. It isn't your job to make sure the survivors survive. In fact, your job is the opposite of that. It isn't your job to make sure every survivor has a good time. Each match is a competition, and if they can't or don't have fun in that competition, it's their problem, not yours. You are a killer, not a happy-fun-time-party-thrower.
It isn't okay to camp a survivor when it is to your own disadvantage. For example, face camping the first survivor you catch, early in the match. You're only hurting yourself if you face camp in that situation, and that's just stupid.
As for when it's okay according to the rules: camping isn't against the rules. Neither is tunneling. Survivors created the rule that killers should allow them to make safe hook rescues, but that's like playing Battleship and your opponent telling you that you can't attack the A column. Derp.
You will be accused of camping and tunneling, if you do or not. It's just what poor sports do when they lose. So, "gg" it and keep going.
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@tennmio said:
Crizpen said:So, we've all heard the complaints about tunneling and camping. As a killer main, I don't camp unless the exit gates are open, and I try not to tunnel if it can be avoided.
While filming a video getting all the Adept killer achievements, I ran a Hag game, which I've included below, minus my commentary. What you'll see is the following kill / hook order:
- Down and hook Meg.
- Kate saves Meg.
- Down and hook Kate.
- Kate uses Deliverance to unhook herself.
- Down and hook Kate.
- Nea saves Kate.
- Down Kate, but leave her to be picked up.
- Down and hook Nea (dead).
- Down and hook Meg (dead).
- Down and hook Kate (dead).
Down and hook David (dead).
After the match, Kate stuck around to give me the following message:
"tunneling ######### i hope you choke on your dads dick you worthless [BAD WORD], go apologize to the trees for wasting the oxygen they work so hard for your pathetic excuse for an existence. [BAD WORD] #########." (sic)
Now, keep in mind, I was doing Adept, so I could only use the Hag's teachable perks. I didn't tunnel Meg when she was unhooked, I wouldn't have double-hooked Kate, but no one pulled her off. I left Kate to be picked up despite being able to kill her after she was saved by Nea. Kate was the second to last to die.
All things considered, I don't feel like I did anything wrong. You could say using Mint Rag and Rusty Shackles constitutes "camping" if I always port back to the hook when the save is made, but I never re-hooked anyone who was already injured aside from when Kate unhooked herself with Deliverance and there wasn't a different target to chase.
So, why exactly should killers bother to try to play by survivor "rules" for what's "fair" or "not toxic?"
Well that Kate was the only one getting tunneled after getting off the hook. Everything else was fairplay.
Maybe she took it personal being the only one tunneled and then after being on her second hook and unhooked you went for her first if I got that right.
If I'd see that happening in a game I'd probably asked you what the Kate did that you tunneled her (might have seemed like s.th personal?). So yeah I can understand that she complained. But I understand that after playing fair most of the time her reaction seems wrong.
I understand both sides.
At least there is no need for that to happen again since you seem to be one of those rare ppl playing killer that know what fair play is and you got your trophies already.
The way I see it, if someone is being farmed, I should down the person being saved, even if I don't re-hook them right away. At least the farmer is deprived of altruism points for it, and then I do hook the farmer.
I've queue'ed up the full video to my doctor fight, below, which was by far the stupidest game I've ever played in DBD. Every single survivor farmed another, aside from the David, who didn't have the chance to. Granted, I was going after the adept achievements because I logged in to find my rank reset all the way back to 20, so these aren't the best or most experienced survivors by far, and yes, I was taking advantage of having the best add-on's available to get the 4k's despite the rank, but then I never used a single mori either, but always ran streamers aside from one killer who didn't have any and had to go with a pudding instead.
At the end of the day though, when I'm playing killer, I'm there to kill. And toxic survivors and general ######### are making me feel a lot better about running the sweatiest builds I can come up with.
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@Dead_by_David said:
I have had a few games tonight where some angry people have messaged me saying I am camping and tunneling when the other survivors are obviously around the hook. I will not leave the hook if I know they are waiting there and I do try to get them but they rush the hook. I hit the person unhooked because it is logical. I do not see this as stupid play but I get called some fairly rude things. Am I in the wrong?I frequently, deliberately, not down the farmed player and gone after the farmer, and am still called a camper and tunneler. There isn't anything you can do about it.
If you know you were playing non-toxic, there isn't anything else you can do. Just gg and keep going.
On the other hand, if you want to be toxic, lord knows it's a rare game where I don't have at least 1 super-toxic survivor, so ######### 'em.
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@Dehitay said:
@Crizpen said:
I haven't tested it specifically, and I'm not sure how you would aside from how it "feels," but it may feel that way while being the same movement speed because you're often coming down from the Frenzy and the slower movement speed is damn near unbearable.
Huntress can also use her hatchets as a threat and force down pallets, eliminating loops. So, it may be a case of people taking more risks against Legion and looping him for longer than they otherwise would. Legion is different: they know he can go into Frenzy and end the loop, but they also know if they hit him with the pallet while in Frenzy, that's it for Frenzy. Besides, with Deep Wounds, even if they do get hit, they know he can't do much to them if they fail the pallet slam.
I should have probly been more clear about that. When I was playing Huntress I was out of hatches for the 2nd hit, so I had to chase to get the down. But as Huntress I was actually able to shorten the distance between us without bloodlust. With Legion, I didn't want to use my power while the pallet was still up cause they would have looped and then used it to stun me or waited till I kept my distance to drop it and then run off which would cause my Frenzy time to run out so I was just chasing them around. But with Legion, I was completely unable to close the distance at all. If I never got bloodlust, I could have been chasing them around forever.
Strange. Perhaps a bug you encountered? With Legion I'm able to (slowly) close the gap with running survivors without Frenzy, so I haven't encountered that myself.
That said, I have been mostly rolling survivor since the DLC, and have only around 10 Legion games to base it on, so I mine not be the best sample.
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@Devil_hit11 Those are all good points.
First though, your "Bug 2" may be the bug encountered with the new map and why it isn't currently playable. I don't know, but that would seem to be the obvious reason. As for "Bug 1," I've seen it happen on several killers when the survivor lands a pallet stun. It isn't exclusive to Legion, though I haven't seen the weapon animation glitch you described.
Now, to your points. Legion moonwalking to end the chase and cause the timer to drop is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not sure they could have the Deep Wound timer to continue during a chase without significantly lengthening the timer, which really doesn't change anything from where things stand now, except that if you hit multiple people, those not in chase would have more time to Mend.
I absolutely agree that Mend should have skill checks. As it is, Mend is too easy to do when you aren't being chased, particularly against a killer who isn't designed to focus down a single target, but to hit multiple targets at the same time.
As for causing a Hindered effect, it isn't a terrible idea. I'm absolutely sure the Dev's won't do that automatically though. Rather, if it were to be included, it would have to be as add-on's. Maybe a green causing some slowdown, while the rare would do a bit more. That said, I think I have a solution below that could bypass this issue without hindering survivors specifically.
I totally agree about his add-on's being mostly useless. The ultra-rares aren't nearly as good as some of the rares, and can actually be a hindrance to Legion.
One thing they should change, because the mechanic makes absolutely no sense, is a non-Frenzy hit draining the Frenzy meter. Why have this mechanic? It doesn't matter if it's a healthy survivor or a hurt one. If they have Deep Wounds or not, a non-Frenzy hit completely drains his meter. Which means, against a healthy survivor, Legion is penalized for not opening with a Frenzy / Deep Wound attack.
What kills me is that he was supposedly designed to be fun to play, and to play against. But most survivors I've talked to hate facing the Legion because he isn't a threat, but mostly an annoyance. It certainly isn't a lot of fun to play an ineffective character either. I just don't get it.
A change which may assist playing him, without making him overpowered, may be to change the second-attack mechanic. As you know, hitting a survivor refreshes the meter, but the second hit completely breaks it and fatigues Legion. Rather, I'd like to see a mechanic that doesn't drain the meter on the second hit, doesn't recharge it, but significantly lowers his Frenzy run speed.
I've heard a lot of numbers thrown around, mostly guesses (I think) at his Frenzy movement speed, but I'll give an example in round numbers, assuming a Frenzy speed of 140%:
Hit 1: refreshes the timer, works like it does now.
Hit 2: doesn't change the timer, but reduces Frenzy speed to 120%, eliminates the heartbeat mechanic.
Hit 3: doesn't change the timer, but reduces Frenzy speed to 105%Obviously, chasing the same survivor for multiple hits would be increasingly difficult, but while his movement speed would be lower than even his base of 110% after the third hit, he can still leap pallets and windows.
This, I think, would help keep Legion viable with his power, and better able to end chases, while also balancing that against survivor's ability to play smart and utilize things like a pallet stun for when Legion is moving at the decreased speed.
Lastly, he should come with a built-in Lightborn. Pallet stun saves, to get a teammate off the hook... yeah, that can be avoided by making sure the area is clear of another survivor. Sabo squads there isn't much that can be done for, but they are pretty darn rare. On the other hand, a survivor jumping out and getting the flashlight save, when there's nothing Legion can do to avoid a well-timed purple flashlight, means he has to be begin the 4-hit chase from the start. That's 400% the number of hits any other killer has to land to recapture a saved survivor. Even after the upcoming change, it's 300% the number of hits.
After going through all the hell of ending a chase, he has to begin it all from the start again, wasting all the time he spent putting the survivor on the ground the first time. That gives entirely too much power to survivors, and particularly to the toxic players who will follow the killer, going for saves, rather than completing objectives.
Overall, the problem with Legion is that his power hurts him as much as it helps him, and he's penalized for not using it. For example, he can hit multiple people in quick succession, and the ones not being chased are forced to Mend, but once they have, they're right as rain. Meanwhile, Legion is spending more time chasing down multiple people, or having to wait through Frenzy refreshes to down a player. So, while Deep Wounds on multiple players may slow down the game a bit, the mechanics also give the survivors more time to complete objectives. That's where Legion's biggest problem lies.
Oh, BTW, TrU3 got 18 in a row before his streak was blown. Yes, Legion can kill, but his mechanics make him an annoyance to survivors, and utterly frustrating for the killer. That isn't the "fun" the Dev's keep going on about.
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@Rebel_Raven said:
There is lots of good advice.
Especially this staple. Get some headphones. As long as they're stereo.
I'm running cheap ones plugged into my ps4 controller and it helps immensely. Expensive ones are sometimes just cheap ones with a brand.You will want to hear survivors making noise near you. It's great for all killers, but because you're 2/3 blind in phase walk (can't see survivors, or blood, just scratch marks) , sound will help.
They stop, make noise as they try to go to the side, you hear, and chase.Also make sure the left and right of the headphones are easily discernible. Not much worse than hearing a generator to your left on the right side, and ending up having to swap ear buds.
Sound is everything while she's phased, absolutely, and good headphones are almost a must.
You'll notice while chasing someone, the scratch marks don't appear where they are; they're always slightly behind, so it's a good idea to over-estimate where they'll be when you break phasing for the hit.
Another piece of advice that's precious for Spirit: she has collision while phasing. This can be used during a chase, if you suddenly can't move forward for no good reason, it's because you're on the survivor. But more often, it's useful to figure out what side of a generator a survivor is on before breaking phase for the grab. Just take a second and make sure they're where you think they are and you can avoid a chase all together. Of course, this is most easily used with Prayer Beads, when they have no idea you're nearby.
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@Dehitay said:
After being looped around a truck with pallet on both killers, Legion is definitely noticeably slower than Huntress. Which is annoying cause theoretically he should have a smaller hitbox being a smaller character which should make looping less effective.I haven't tested it specifically, and I'm not sure how you would aside from how it "feels," but it may feel that way while being the same movement speed because you're often coming down from the Frenzy and the slower movement speed is damn near unbearable.
Huntress can also use her hatchets as a threat and force down pallets, eliminating loops. So, it may be a case of people taking more risks against Legion and looping him for longer than they otherwise would. Legion is different: they know he can go into Frenzy and end the loop, but they also know if they hit him with the pallet while in Frenzy, that's it for Frenzy. Besides, with Deep Wounds, even if they do get hit, they know he can't do much to them if they fail the pallet slam.
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@MegaWaffle said:
@se05239 said:
@MegaWaffle said:
Legion is the same speed as Hag, Huntress, Nurse and Spirit 110% movement speed.Pretty sure Nurse is slower than survivors. She's below 100%.
I don't believe she is slower than 100% but I could be wrong about Nurse. I play PS4 so she may as well not exist.
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I got called a "sucker" today, for not camping the hook after the doors were open.
So, you know... I guess that's what they think I should be doing.
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@alivebydeadight said:
@Crizpen said:
@alivebydeadight said:
slurrp first mindgames with her only work in the lower ranks like 15-20, so a good thing to use her for is mindgame survivors to the point that they actually thing you are attempting a mind game, she is really good at shack mindgames, if the survivor does not believe you at first being the phase shift and hit them, even if they are walking get lucky, then the mindgames can begin due to them not believing if your trying to preform a mindgame or not, now its time for perksPerks that are good on other killers are somewhat bad on spirit, aura reading perks do not work while using phase walk so bbq is a terrible perk on her, but noed and ruin are decent, rancor is situational and not preferred on her due to her being easy to take down the obsession and the perk ds( I will explain that later) and her ability to phase walk works a charm with the perk bloodhound mixed with the add on fathers glasses(allows you to see blood while phase walking), 4th perk in my opinion will be surprising but using the perk bamboozle works well on her and her learning curve
DS can be countered well with this killer due to phase walk, allowing you to catch up to the survivor in seconds due to them running away
I will place more in here to help you play her if you need too
I disagree with BBQ being "a terrible perk on her." She has the ability to move across the map extremely quickly; seeing survivor auras during those 4 seconds and being able to close the distance quickly, allows her to capitalize on that information better than most killers. Not to mention, the bloodpoints.
It's interesting you recommend Bloodhound then, over BBQ, when it requires the ultra-rare Father's Glasses to benefit. Sure, it's handy sometimes, but not most matches because you won't have that many glasses.
Stridor is excellent for her, because it does help you hear where the survivor moved to after entering your phasing. That's super helpful to counter the negative of not being able to see them, if they're injured or not.
Hex: Ruin, always a good perk for any killer. It isn't strictly necessary, as you get better with her, but it will always help to one degree or another.
As for Sloppy Butcher, if you're using Father's Glasses and Bloodhound or not, Sloppy will always slow down the pace of the game, and that's good for any killer, just like Ruin. And it's not like you can't see the blood outside of phasing, to make it easier to track an injured survivor.
I would say the best add-on's for her are: Ruin, Sloppy, BBQ, Discordance, Monitor and Abuse and Stridor. Obviously, you can't take them all into every match, but depending on your add-on's, you should be able to put together some solid builds from those. You could also use Haunted Grounds to get the exhaustion on survivors attempting to destroy your Ruin.
As for add-on's, her best is Prayer Beads. Being able to approach a generator you can hear is being worked on and grabbing the survivor off of it can't be replaced. The add-on also works really well with builds like Ruin & Thrill of the Hunt, allowing you to grab survivors off the totems. Or using the new Legion perk Discordance, to know when two survivors are working on a single gen and grabbing one of them off. But most of her add-on's are pretty powerful in their own right, so you don't have to rely on Beads for every match.
On mind games, don't discount standing still after a survivor drops a pallet. They may very well think you're phasing, and vault the pallet right into your arms. Likewise, standing still at a window for a few seconds looks the same as if she's vaulting the window behind a survivor, and they may very well loop back to you for a second jump, only to get smacked down. But what you'll find most useful is, when entering a loop, phase and leave your husk to body-block the survivor passing through the pallet again. They either have to abandon the loop, or take a hit to complete it.
Without Prayer Beads, she's still a powerful killer. IMO, in the top 3, along with Nurse and Billy. Unlike those two though, there aren't strange movement mechanics to practice and get used to. She's easier to learn, IMO than either of the others, and almost as deadly. Additionally, there aren't real negatives for a mistake, like a long fatigue or stun from hitting a wall. So, she's a bit more forgiving to newer players than Nurse or Billy.
Here's Tru3Ta1ent using Spirit at Rank 1. You'll see he does the "fake window vault" to down the Claudette. He's using Haunted Grounds, Enduring, Bitter Murmur and Devour Hope, which doesn't fit well with my play style, and may be a sub-optimal build for her, but he still destroys that group.
I used to be a spirit main and bbq will be cancelled upon using phase walk
Yes, it's only good for those same 4 seconds anyone else gets, and if you phase immediately, you don't get all 4 seconds. However, because of her speed, Spirit can capitalize on that information more than: Pig, Trapper, Wraith, Huntress, Myers, Hag, Leatherface, Doctor, Freddy, Clown or Legion.
Just because you can cancel the effect, doesn't mean the information is worth less on Spirit. It's worth more, because she can get to the survivors faster than other killers, and avoid them moving too far from where they were seen.
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One other thing, if you're new to killer: learn how to hide your red stain. You don't see it while you're playing, but the survivors do. Often, they can see it, not just on the floor around the corner, but through the walls and floors.
The red stain tells survivors where you're looking, and usually the direction you're running. But if you hide it, you can hit a survivor quickly around a corner, after walking backward, before they see you and can drop a pallet.
That's true for every killer, not just Spirit.
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@alivebydeadight said:
slurrp first mindgames with her only work in the lower ranks like 15-20, so a good thing to use her for is mindgame survivors to the point that they actually thing you are attempting a mind game, she is really good at shack mindgames, if the survivor does not believe you at first being the phase shift and hit them, even if they are walking get lucky, then the mindgames can begin due to them not believing if your trying to preform a mindgame or not, now its time for perksPerks that are good on other killers are somewhat bad on spirit, aura reading perks do not work while using phase walk so bbq is a terrible perk on her, but noed and ruin are decent, rancor is situational and not preferred on her due to her being easy to take down the obsession and the perk ds( I will explain that later) and her ability to phase walk works a charm with the perk bloodhound mixed with the add on fathers glasses(allows you to see blood while phase walking), 4th perk in my opinion will be surprising but using the perk bamboozle works well on her and her learning curve
DS can be countered well with this killer due to phase walk, allowing you to catch up to the survivor in seconds due to them running away
I will place more in here to help you play her if you need too
I disagree with BBQ being "a terrible perk on her." She has the ability to move across the map extremely quickly; seeing survivor auras during those 4 seconds and being able to close the distance quickly, allows her to capitalize on that information better than most killers. Not to mention, the bloodpoints.
It's interesting you recommend Bloodhound then, over BBQ, when it requires the ultra-rare Father's Glasses to benefit. Sure, it's handy sometimes, but not most matches because you won't have that many glasses.
Stridor is excellent for her, because it does help you hear where the survivor moved to after entering your phasing. That's super helpful to counter the negative of not being able to see them, if they're injured or not.
Hex: Ruin, always a good perk for any killer. It isn't strictly necessary, as you get better with her, but it will always help to one degree or another.
As for Sloppy Butcher, if you're using Father's Glasses and Bloodhound or not, Sloppy will always slow down the pace of the game, and that's good for any killer, just like Ruin. And it's not like you can't see the blood outside of phasing, to make it easier to track an injured survivor.
I would say the best add-on's for her are: Ruin, Sloppy, BBQ, Discordance, Monitor and Abuse and Stridor. Obviously, you can't take them all into every match, but depending on your add-on's, you should be able to put together some solid builds from those. You could also use Haunted Grounds to get the exhaustion on survivors attempting to destroy your Ruin.
As for add-on's, her best is Prayer Beads. Being able to approach a generator you can hear is being worked on and grabbing the survivor off of it can't be replaced. The add-on also works really well with builds like Ruin & Thrill of the Hunt, allowing you to grab survivors off the totems. Or using the new Legion perk Discordance, to know when two survivors are working on a single gen and grabbing one of them off. But most of her add-on's are pretty powerful in their own right, so you don't have to rely on Beads for every match.
On mind games, don't discount standing still after a survivor drops a pallet. They may very well think you're phasing, and vault the pallet right into your arms. Likewise, standing still at a window for a few seconds looks the same as if she's vaulting the window behind a survivor, and they may very well loop back to you for a second jump, only to get smacked down. But what you'll find most useful is, when entering a loop, phase and leave your husk to body-block the survivor passing through the pallet again. They either have to abandon the loop, or take a hit to complete it.
Without Prayer Beads, she's still a powerful killer. IMO, in the top 3, along with Nurse and Billy. Unlike those two though, there aren't strange movement mechanics to practice and get used to. She's easier to learn, IMO than either of the others, and almost as deadly. Additionally, there aren't real negatives for a mistake, like a long fatigue or stun from hitting a wall. So, she's a bit more forgiving to newer players than Nurse or Billy.
Here's Tru3Ta1ent using Spirit at Rank 1. He's using Haunted Grounds, Enduring, Bitter Murmur and Ruin, which doesn't fit well with my play style, and may be a sub-optimal build for her, but he still destroys that group.
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@LegitAdventurer said:
I still don't get why people are saying he's useless? He's basically a better The Spirit.A better Spirit?
Legion depends on loooong games. His ability, used to hunt multiple people, doesn't mean the first he hit is significantly damaged, but needs to spend a few seconds mending to be right as rain. So, while using his ability to chase multiple people slows down the game a bit, it does so at the expense of Legion's time downing a survivor (the time required to move from target 1 to target 2, and then complete the chase).
Furthermore, his inability to quickly down survivors means that his power works as much for him as it does against him: Target 1 might need to mend briefly before getting back to work, but Legion has to slowly follow Target 2 out of Frenzy before maybe getting a non-Frenzy hit, or waiting for their power to recharge for a third hit, and then waiting for the power to recharge to get a forth hit.
Additionally, if Legion happens across a healthy survivor and hits them without Frenzy, they lose their entire Frenzy meter and must recharge it from scratch. Meaning, just hitting a healthy survivor punishes Legion by depriving them of Frenzy. And, unlike Spirit (or any other killer), a pallet slam save, or flashlight save doesn't mean Legion has to chase the caught survivor for 1 more hit to recollect them, but has to start from scratch in the entire chase sequence, requiring an additional 3-4 hits, depending on add-on's.
Alternatively, Spirit can phase immediately to where the survivor is running, break phasing and get the quick down.
As for perks, aside from the always useless perks such as Territorial Imperative, every other killer can greatly benefit from Exposure perks. NOED, Make Your Choice, Devour Hope... these are very powerful perks which are all-but useless on Legion because Frenzy attacks do not trigger exposure. Instead, if Legion tries to use exposure perks, they have to run at slower than standard movement speed and risk being looped endlessly in the process. Until they add in the changes they suggested yesterday, there isn't even a point to healing against Legion, or as the Dev's said, "this is the time for the No Mither meta."
In the end, killers don't get kills (aside from Nurse) because the killer is so amazingly awesome, but because survivors make mistakes. They don't throw the pallet at the right time, they don't know where the infinite loops are, they try for a window they can't make, or hit it at the wrong angle and don't get the fast vault... Legion is the worst killer at capitalizing on those mistakes. Worse than Freddy, as at least Freddy has normal killer movement speed.
Compare this to Spirit, who can use Prayer Beads to approach targets completely undetected, who can use exposure perks, who can not only take advantage of bad loops, but eliminate them entirely by parking her husk to body-block a pallet... Additionally, she can mind game the hell out of a survivor. If she's standing still, they don't know if she's phasing or waiting for the survivor to run straight at her. If she's standing at a window, she might be vaulting, or she may be waiting for the survivor to loop back for a second-jump and an easy hit.
It's very much like when Freddy was released and, despite how weak he was, people complained that he was OP because they simply didn't know how to play against him. The same is true for Legion. He isn't a better Spirit... or a better anything. He may benefit from being new, and people not knowing how to counter him, but that isn't going to last long.
As an aside, you clearly weren't watching the Dev streams or going on these forums during the PTB. There were nothing but complaints about how awful a killer Legion is. The Dev's justification: it's more fun to not be competitive.
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@Delfador said:
Okay I might be stoned to death for saying this but this new buff to him sounds really good if I didn't misunderstand it.If you stay injured, you will take 3 hits in frenzy mode to go down. Since the first two hits are almost free, it will make you go down with 2 hits while allowing you to vault windows and pallets with increased speed.
So, either the game is gonna take forever to finish due to healing or you take the risk and not heal yourself.
Still boring to play against him but we should wait till they introduce this buff.
Not stoned to death, but there are two changes: the first being as you said, injured players hit with Deep Wounds having a lower timer than if they were healthy. The second being, if Frenzy is canceled, it doesn't take away the unused portion.
The first change is good because it makes Sloopy Butcher a viable perk choice and helps a slow killer slow down the game a bit. Lord knows there are already enough perks that are worthless on them.
The second just makes sense, not to punish Legion for breaking Frenzy and to give a reason to do it and play smarter with them.
A change they should make, if for no other reason than the current mechanic makes absolutely no sense, is non-Frenzy hits not draining his Frenzy meter. It doesn't matter if the survivor is injured or not, has Deep Wounds or not: a normal hit completely drains their Frenzy meter.
When they're already hampered by the slower movement speed, and because it largely doesn't help them down a survivor to strike a healthy one with a normal hit, there's absolutely no reason to punish Legion for making it by taking away his Frenzy.
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As @Blueberry said, play the game as you would like to play it.
That said, despite the latest killer they designed, the dev's specifically state the killer objective: "The Killer’s main objective is to stop the Survivors. This is done by catching them and hanging them from one of the Meat Hooks found in the level. Killers can not die, but will fail if the Survivors manage to escape."
It's a competitive game, not a cooperative one. Your objectives as the killer are exactly opposite those of the survivors. The fun, when I'm playing survivor, is trying to escape based on the environment, killer, RNG and our respective skill. Farming games aren't fun. The killer letting me escape, rather than giving me a challenge, isn't fun. It's a horror game, and when I'm survivor, I should be afraid.
Otherwise it's like picking up a Madden game to discover you're playing Shoots and Ladders. Or ordering Mortal Kombat and being shipped a Tickle Me Elmo. They're fine products, I'm sure, but it's not what you wanted when you picked up the game.
This is why I get so frustrated with the Dev's argument that there should only be 2 or 3 viable killers out of the 14 they designed. A killer who can't, or doesn't, kill is the antithesis of their role in a horror game.
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On the plus side, they suggested making Billy's chainsaw apply Deep Wounds, so people stop complaining that Legion is underpowered.
I guess this is the way of their thinking: mend shouldn't be affected by healing perks, so we'll nerf other killers.
https://youtu.be/gGl0Usb-XxU?t=182
https://youtu.be/ksJ-Xt4EzC8?t=1333
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSllVNNrKnU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PHqpA9SyYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3cnfq_JJy0