Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363343#Comment_3363343
This was explained really well. Thank you for breaking it down because even I was wondering what he meant when he said 'dead hard is a recently complained about issue' but when you explain it that way it does make sense why he'd say that. People only started getting good with it and using it more recently similar to what happened back when it got buffed by servers indirectly
That’s not what happened at all though. Dead hard has been the most complained about survivor perk for a while. But when BHVR announced that eruption was getting a massive nerf, but didn’t mention anything about dead hard, that caused people to become so outraged that they started flooding the forums with dead hard posts.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364090#Comment_3364090
when spirit was nerfed the directional phasing used to be exact like the more closer she is the more louder the phasing was SIMPLE
but now phasing makes 0 directional sound when there is a object / wall in between and becomes louder everytime.. sadly bringing back her guessing game as counterplay on many long wall loops...which is even more broken with the RING addon.
and not only that , when the spirit looses the directional phasing sound any survivor nearby will hear like the spirit is going into their direction regarding the spirit being 24 meters away from you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoxYLiP7iLE&ab_channel=TrU3Ta1ent
this is how it suposse to work btw..... 🤦 4:30 is the best example
Why didn't you give 1:06 as an example instead, where Spirit was going around the shack? You know, the example where the streamer stays in one place the entire time Spirit didn't have line of sight, and doesn't react until Spirit turns around the corner and is within line of sight again? I honestly can't hear the directional audio over the heartbeat noises and the bell noises, when Spirit didn't have line of sight.
Why didn't you give 1:35 as an example instead, where the survivor goes around a wall, and I can't hear the directional audio for the last half of the wall. But we know Spirit was still phasing, because we see the husk a bit later, and Spirit is phasing up until the point where we hear the crystal noises and the husk starts disappearing.
My favorite example is 1:55, where I hear phasing, then I can't hear directional audio starting at 1:57, and I still can't hear directional audio until 1:59 when we can see a crow fly away (which is in our line of sight). I can hear directional audio from my left ear at 2:01, but then the streamer breaks line of sight and I can't hear the directional audio around 2:02, and we know Spirit is still phasing because we hear the crystal noises at 2:03 that signals the end of her phasing.
I would be perfectly fine if BHVR made Spirit's directional audio just like those examples I just gave, where maybe the directional audio is in there somewhere when line of sight is broken, but it's absolutely not a super clear directional audio 100% of the time, that is clearly audible over the other game noises.
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Sound occlusion is supposed to affect game sounds. Have any of the clickbait videos, that say Spirit's direction audio is broken, shown a comparison to what her sound occlusion was like a few months ago?
As in, has any of these clickbait videos even proven that her directional audio had zero sound occlusion, and was always easily audible, a few months ago?
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363688#Comment_3363688
It's pretty clear DH is in need of changes and their track record of issues like this has always been to fix the problem. I think a reason they won't come out and say that it will be changed because it might not be next patch. If they say DH will change and then the mid chapter that is revolved around changing perks doesn't have it in there then players will be upset.
It doesn't need to be the next patch. BHVR could just say "it will be changed sometime in 2023" or some other vague time frame.
Being told "discuss it more" heavily implies a decision hasn't been made, and gives zero commitment on whether or not further discussion would change this. I don't understand what statement BHVR made, has led you to believe that the perk would definitely be changed.
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This is a nerf to iron maiden as well. The change SHOULD have been 3D scream within a certain distance, and a 2D mapwide scream beyond that certain distance.
When I have iron maiden, and someone across the map triggers it, I can't just quickly tell if iron maiden triggered, and instead I'm expected to swivel my camera around 360 degrees, to find the loud noise notification, to check if it's iron maiden?
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@Peanits said:
Our offices are just desks and conference rooms and a cafeteria, my dude. It's not an evil lair. We don't have even one excessively tall arm chair with an angry looking cat we cat pet while laughing maniacally.
In reality, nobody who spends 8 hours a day working on a game wants people to be upset about something, but things take time. Game devs aren't the super villains you want them to be.
I get it that things take time, but I still don't understand why we can't be told if dead hard is getting changed. Is BHVR still not sure if dead hard needs to be changed? We got an absolutely huge advanced notice that a survivor HUD might happen, and the eruption change was announced in advance..... but dead hard might be fine as it is, and we should just spend a few more months arguing about it on the forums?
And if we spend a few more months arguing about dead hard, but BHVR ends up deciding that dead hard is fine, then we get to feel like we wasted a whole bunch of time? And then we get a defeatist expectation that arguing about survivor stuff is a complete waste of time, and only pro-survivor complaints are important?
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@HugTechLover said:
Can we ban DH threads for this week? What is this, the 9th or 10th one in a matter of days?
BHVR literally encouraged everyone to talk about dead hard more.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362987#Comment_3362987
Well, Peanits asked for more DH discussions, so that's what he gets. Anything for our friends at BHVR.
I'm just waiting for someone to turn that into a meme, honestly.
Is there an arbitrary number of complaints dead hard needs to get, before it gets nerfed? Can we get some sort of progress bar, so we know how many more complaints we need to do?????
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@TigerSnake said:
Didn’t some guy say he wanted to see more DH discussion posts? That probably means DH is currently not on the radar to get changed anytime soon. Which is ridiculous.
Yes. Someone from BHVR encouraged us to talk about DH more. After all the discussions we've had so far, we still haven't gotten a clear answer on whether or not dead nerf will get a real heavy nerf, and instead we just get encouraged to talk about it more.
Meanwhile, we can't even get BHVR to admit whether or not they made Nurse's new chase music purposely super loud, and purposely full of thud noises, to purposely nerf her ability to hear survivors through walls.
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Sound occlusion is supposed to affect game sounds. Have any of the clickbait videos, that say Spirit's direction audio is broken, shown a comparison to what her sound occlusion was like a few months ago?
As in, has any of these clickbait videos even proven that her directional audio had zero sound occlusion, and was always easily audible, a few months ago?
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362049#Comment_3362049
Yeah, I understand you think it does not count. I got that from the start.
Cant you explain why it does not count and why I should think it does not count as indication of the edge of the map?
The giant vertical wall, with the unique graphics that only exist on the edges of the map, is a better indication. It's unique, it's constant throughout the entire edge of the map, and it's very vertical so it's easy to see from far away.
If your idea is implemented, survivors will have a fit because they'll accidently run into the edges of the map during a chase. And saying "well, you must be unobservant if you ran into the invisible walls" is a garbage excuse.
I'm done with this conversation. Your idea is terrible.
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@Gamall said:
Flooding the forum with the same threads over and over again repeating the same things only shows how much some of you need to get some fresh air as soon as possible.
I think it is seriously becoming therapeutic at this point.
The end result is already a foregone conclusion anyway: the perk will be nerfed again, but you will all be here again, whining like babies and targeting the next one.
So why didn't people say that when the forums was flooded with nerf nurse and nerf eruption posts? Because that's what happened, and Nurse got triple nerfed, and eruption got nerfed into the ground.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362051#Comment_3362051
I mean, i am judging you right now, not what happened ago.
Also, most of those eruption nerf suggestions were way nicer than what bhvr eventually did. I know, because i also suggested changes and was shocked by how overkill they were, that i made also a post to revert the regression nerf at least, that it was overkill.
Eruption will probably be good on mobility killers that want to also kick gens. Definitely not an universally good perk like before, but this new version could be good on some killers. Probably a B tier perk tho now, if i had to predict
It doesn't matter how nice some of the suggestions were. People complained, and eruption got nerfed into the ground. And the new version is garbage, and isn't worth the time it takes to walk to a generator, kick the generator, then walk back to where you need to be.
Then fine, nerf dead hard into the ground, then add some fake good thing to it, like "other survivors get +10% healing speed for the next 30 seconds". Then people can say "oh wow dead hard is still good for some survivors because it helps their teammates with their healing speeds".
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@philward1953 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362042#Comment_3362042
Thankyou. Sorry I didn't mean to be rude. I just want to promote actual constructive comments instead of one that say "just nerf it" or "delete it"
Constructive comments are comments that involve the perk getting nerfed into the ground. It's so tiring when eruption gets nerfed into the ground, and Nurse gets triple nerfed, but people want dead hard to get a tiny nudge in power.
@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362042#Comment_3362042
Yep, you definitely don't sound angry and obsessed xD
You mean just like how some people were just complaining about eruption over and over and over and over and over, but that was ok for some whatever reason? And just like how people complained about eruption so much that it got massively nerfed?
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362026#Comment_3362026
Aha, yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to address why in your mind, The Slope and the increased foliage isn't enough to indicate the edge. You saying "a wall is unique landmark" does not really convince me my recommendation is bad. Also Garden of Joy has no walls, that place too has some flying debris, while my recommendation would have fog. Check the picture I made in paint.
And as shown in the screenshots I posted earlier in this thread, Garden of joy has a short unique rock wall, and a vertical dense wall of giant floating rocks (that only exist beyond the edges of the map). Garden of joy does have a unique wall, it's just in the form of a dense wall of floating rocks.
Every map should have unique graphics that very clearly show where the edges of the map are. Your slope doesn't count. And having a bit of sparse vegetation doesn't count either. You would need something like a dense floating wall of vegetation, that clearly only exists beyond the walls of the map. Or a solid wall of something that also only exists at the edges of the map.
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@philward1953 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362029#Comment_3362029
Alright. You do it. Think of a way, and tell us.
1) Dead Hard no longer works on M2 powers.
2) Dead Hard deactivates for the rest of the game if it is successfully used.
3) Dead Hard no longer gives a speed burst if the survivor is hit during the endurance window.
There you go. Triple nerf Dead Hard with all three of those things, so we can finally bury the perk.
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We don't need dead hard to become more like old dead hard. We need it nerfed into the ground like the eruption nerf. Or we need to triple nerfed like what they did with Nurse. We should stop thinking of useful reworks, and instead think of ways the perk can get nerfed into the ground.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361887#Comment_3361887
I explained to you how there were trees and a slope could easily demonstrate the map edge, meaning it would matter little to remove the wall as the maps edge would me demonstrated and accounted for. Now I stated my opinion that , Would you need more than that to demonstrate where the map's edge was, I think that player would be very unobservant should they require more than those indicators. That was the point. However, in the event of such a player not knowing where the edge of the map is, the invisible wall would teach them that there is no swimming in this game.
Now I really don't think saying this is making an attempt at shaming player in compliance, but you may have a point. It was not my intention to shame someone as unobservant for not seeing the slope and increased number of trees indicating map edge, a point you seem to have glossed over for now. I will go back and change my response to your critique as I would not like to indicate to you something that isn't my intention. Let me repeat, I am not trying to shame you into compliance and if you thought that id like to apologize. Not my intention.
I would like to hear your argument against the point that the typography of the map and increased foliage is enough or not to indicate the edge of the map?
My argument is that an vertical wall, that has a unique graphic, is much easier to see from far away, and is much quicker to notice from far away. Having an invisible wall doesn't help people see the wall from far away. We don't need to make the map more difficult to figure out, just so you can have a bit more immersion.
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What if we started just by nerfing the most complained about killer perk, and the most complained about survivor perk, which would be eruption and dead hard? Considering how many things get nerfed by of survivor complaints, surely we should be able to have a heavy nerf for dead hard, since it's the most complained about survivor perk by miles.
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@Laurie268 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360189#Comment_3360189
This isn’t old DH, you can’t just DH to safety if you mess up at shack unless the killer is bad at baiting it. If you’re hugging the survivor there’s no way they will succesfully DH unless they’re lucky
"Baiting it" requires all killers to stop lunging, and requires certain killers to stop using their power, which is an horrible thing to ask killers to do.
And new DH does allow people to DH to safety, because it has a sprint burst attached to it, so when people use it away from tiles, the sprint burst can often can them safely to the next tile.
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@Anti051 said:
The perk's identity is that it's literally an I-win-button with extra steps.
It came about because of how afraid the devs were of adding the first ranged killer to the roster (Huntress).
The perk does not need to keep it's bogus identity, it needs to change fundamentally.
I forget whom, but somebody had a cool idea for DH - On taking a protection hit, DH activates and grants a speed burst to any nearby survivors. It even matches the flavor text of the perk,
"We were walkin' through t'ginnel one night when a beer bottle flew past me, then another, and another.
I thought to myself "Gonna 'ave some fun 'ere lads, let's get stuck in!".
It were a right dust up, I swear down!" — David King
Coordinated SWFs would use that to take turns bodyblocking for each other. We shouldn't encourage perks that are ok in solo, but become super obnoxious in coordinated SWFs.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361848#Comment_3361848
You also notice the higher concentration of trees and the slope? Nobody except the most unobservant would be recklessly confused by my recommendation and besides there is an invisible wall. You try jumping in the water 5 times until you realize you cant and besides... Don't you have generators to do? Indeed, there wont be much problem here.
What is up with people on these forums trying to shame people into agreeing with them? This is exactly like the shaming that happens when people say "good killers know how to bait dead hard, so if you're having trouble with dead hard, then you must not be a good killer". Does this actually work on people? Do people actually say "oh no, I don't want people to think I'm a bad killer so I better get shamed into thinking dead hard is ok"? Do people actually say "oh no, I don't want people to think I'm the most unobservant so I better get shamed into thinking the swamp slope idea is good"?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361754#Comment_3361754
Peanits touched on that. When people want “underperforming killers buffed,” they mean strengthened against higher-caliber survivors (less than 5%* of the playerbase, per BHVR’s stats). But the problem with that is by buffing these “underperforming killers”, they become too oppressive for average players (around 95%* of the playerbase). So while it feels good to be able to compete with your favorite killer against really good survivors, you’re actually ruining the experience for people who aren’t in that top percentile. And no one speaks about that because no one is going to complain about their own guy being too strong. Additionally, most players here are self-serving & self-absorbed, so “balance” is always “what feels good to me.” Anyway, that’s why they don’t make balance changes like players want. Really, no game does.
*These percentages are based on MMR ranking. Less than 5% of players have high MMR, indicating great skill. Most players have low to average MMR. All killers have killrates above 55% across MMR levels, meaning they average a 2.5K per match.
This goes way beyond the top 5% of the players. There are many killers that are high MMR (BUT NOT NECESSARILY AT THE MMR CAP), that many people feel underperform at high MMR, and aren't worth playing. A killer doesn't need to literally be at the MMR soft cap, in order to get matched against coordinated SWFs that are miserable to against when over half the killer roster is being used.
We often had "nerf killer" posts, where the same killers were listed over and over, which coincidentally were the most popular killers that people actually felt were still good at high MMR (AND DISCLAIMER AGAIN, HIGH MMR DOESN'T LITERALLY NEED TO BE THE MMR SOFT CAP). And instead of thinking, "maybe there needs to be more killers, that were perceived useful at high MMR", the solution was "we should release more killers that aren't perceived useful at high MMR, and multi nerf some of the useful killers if they get enough complaints".
The absolute worst part of this, is some people still played the lower tier characters, and relied on eruption to give them enough time to win, and now they are being told that eruption needs to be nerfed into the ground, but dead hard can still stayed untouched? And the lower tier character still have to deal with the uncompensated game advantages SWFs get when they use voice communications, and they still have to deal with the new survivor HUD? I personally will just stop using the lower tier characters when the eruption nerf happens. I'm not going to suffer through overtuned dead hards on lower tier killers, when my best gen regression perk is getting nerfed, and pain res is getting nerfed, and I'm getting absolutely nothing in return as compensation.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361837#Comment_3361837
There is no need of that, we all know that the edges of the swamp, where the slope goes up is the edge of the map.
No need for a wall.
Do you see how easy it is to see the wall, way off in the distance, since it has a unique graphic that is super vertical? That's way easier to see than a slope is. In the second picture, when I click it so it's bigger, I can easily see the wall go the entire length of the screenshot.
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@chatgiraffe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361656#Comment_3361656
ever heard of this map called the Garden of Joy
The garden of joy map, that has a short rock wall, and so many floating rocks behind the wall that the edge of the map can be easily seen from a distance?
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How is a downward slope easier to see from a distance than a vertical wall is? The purpose of the vertical wall is so everyone can easily see the edge of the map from a distance.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361669#Comment_3361669
BHVRs attention changed to Dead Hard which is enough for something to be monitorized. They know it's a community problem so they've noticed.
That is what I said. Peanits told us to keep bringing in the feedback about it, even more. I did not say "they are going to change it" but they have noticed it's a hot topic, a problem within the community.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7K9CWDK8WC1H/image.png
:)
Or it could mean they are just going to wait a few months to see if the forums are still flooded with complaints, and if the frequency of complaints goes down within the next few months, then it's not longer "a hot topic" and therefore doesn't need to be fixed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
You know, from my own stand point I think whatever perk is used in almost every match.. be it from killer side or survivor side requires a change.
Dave Richard (Creative Director on DbD) said that when such happen, the team will most likely look at some changes. Dead Hard is definitely used in almost every game up to 4 times at the high mmr levels and perhaps the same at lower levels (maybe less uses). While is true the usage rate dropped at certain levels after its change in 6.1.0, the playerbase quickly adapted and right now we're back at it.
Peanits replied of his awareness of the problem and BHVR as a whole.
Personally I just do not like to see a perk 24/7, I don't think that's right.
-- Speaking of Eruption, same happened. Used in almost every game, going with the same theory.
Peanits said BHVR was aware that people were complaining about it enough for it to be considered "a hot topic". Peanits did not say BHVR considered it a problem, and he did not say whether or not anything would be done about it.
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A constant vertical wall is way easier to see from a distance, than an invisible wall with sparingly placed objects and stuff on the ground.
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I don't like that it's a nerf to pain res, which I feel like was done on purpose, since it's happening the same patch where eruption is nerfed.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360955#Comment_3360955
Well we need less nerfing of perks just because they’re meta and more just buffing all the bad perks.
We need to nerf dead hard first, and then we can worry about buffing the bad perks.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360818#Comment_3360818
By the same argument, we should disable killer's ability to hit survivors at all. There are very few things more frustrating then vaulting a window, finishing animation, doing 2 steps away and then falling to the ground. And yet this is common occurance at least here in EU (because devs refused to create separate russian servers).
The point is - you can't disable things because of ping, because you would need to remove game's most fundamental principle.
Or.... we could argue that BHVR needs to find a solution for the EU server latency, and not let an issue that is specific to one server, create game decisions that effect every other server on the planet.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360801#Comment_3360801
Not only the add-ons, your forgor starstruck?
All the 3 basekit nurse players who didn't use those cheap tactics (me included) keep doing just fine
Also just in case, since it seems you felt attacked by my post, but if the patch didn't affect your gameplay then perhaps you were fine already. I'm making fun of all those players that were literally carried by their egos other than their builds, and once they realized they were not that good without those cheap tactics they dropped her immediately
The patch affected everyone’s gameplay, because the Nurse’s new chase music is so loud and full of this noises, that survivors go instantly silent when they break line of sight. And the new chase music is giving some people headaches too. But we can’t get any feedback from BHVR on whether this was intended, or if it’s bugged, or if they even care.
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We should also get rid of Dead Hard, because perks that punish killers for having good ping, shouldn’t exist.
The perk is frustrating for survivors when the killer has bad ping, and it’s frustrating for killers when the killer has good ping, and it’s overall causing so much grief and drama that it needs to be heavily nerfed.
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@fratto said:
Can we all unanimously agree that cowshed is in a dire need of some changes?
Devs changed eyrie of crows and eruption after immense feedback, a comment from peanits seems to be suggestive towards the facts dead hard change is probably on its way within a time frame aswell.
Can we get our voices heard on cowshed?
4 gyms, shack and the cowshed all around the edges with lane pallets (not fillers) inbetween every gym that connect and link perfectly. Ontop of the potential cow tree spawn in the middle with 3 more lane pallet spawns between cowtree and the barn.
the layout speaks for itself.
We didn't get any confirmation that a dead hard change was going to happen. It seemed like he said "people should keep complaining about it, so BHVR can get more feedback".
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359055#Comment_3359055
I mean if you want a balanced and good game you should only listen to top players that's kinda common knowledge with game balance. Balancing around lower level play is how we got into this huge mess to begin with.
The problem is that being a top player doesn’t mean that person actually wants the game to be fair and balanced.
And when the top player is also a streamer, they might purposely release their feedback in the form of clickbait videos, which are more concerned with getting viewers and money, than they are with actual game balance.
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A group of survivor wake up in the woods, with no memory of how they got there. The survivors try to escape from Trapper, and are getting killed one by one by Trappers wide variety of complicated traps.
And at the end of the movie, after all the survivors are dead, they all wake up in a junkyard, with no memory of what happened. After walking around a bit, they hear a bing bong noise, Wraith appears and kills one of the survivors, and the movie ends right there.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359661#Comment_3359661
Oh, so you'd rather have old DH? Recency bias much.
DH for distance being taken away wasn't a massive nerf? Not being able to DH every power in the game? Not a big deal. No longer being able to use DH when in Deep Wounds? Irrelevant.
You can say it wasn't enough, I'd disagree, but I'd think you're being reasonable. But to say that the nerf was a small nerf and not impactful? Ludicrous.
We would rather dead hard get a real nerf, like what happened to eruption. BHVR removed one problem with dead hard, and replaced it with a completely different problem.
We don't want new dead hard or old dead hard. We want a heavily nerfed dead hard, that is so heavily nerfed that killers stop complaining about it. We want dead hard to get overnerfed just like Nurse got overnerfed, because Nurse got triple nerfed so badly that the flood of "nerf Nurse" posts stopped. That is the level of nerf that dead hard deserves.
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@Mooks said:
I think the community mainly hates on this chapter/killer because they seem like a rather weak M1 killer without mobility/map pressure. They just want another killer on Nurse/Blight/Wesker power level.
funnily enough, same part of the community hated on Blight as well (not because of the actual bugs but the power mechanic in general because it wasn’t powerful as straight forward as Wesker or Nurse)
Early Blight also had a camera angle that was very low to the ground, and he couldn't break pallets while he was using his power, and he couldn't object slide because the secondary collision detection wasn't implemented yet.
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@Veroles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359580#Comment_3359580
It does not really help to balance a killer because of statistic at least not only, because the statistic does not show why a match does went a certain way, it does not show the intention behind. A lot of people do not play serious at all when they hear the first scream of a nurse. Some suicide fast, some dc fast, some wanna die but not wanna make it so obvious, some just sneak around very hard because they go for hatch.... Balancing a killer is much more than just looking at any statistic or data. And because that some killers also do understand that nurse was and is still crazy in right hands, they play also nurse different, at least some of them, when they have the feeling that this team is not having fun at all + are not toxic + are maybe not really experienced. The data is not really correct anyway, they are just an indicator. Some nurses do not care at all and stomp no matter what and to honest when every nurse would play like that they would do different changes.
That is a lot of "what if" statements that happen with many of the other killers too.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359417#Comment_3359417
I was responding to your question about dead hard being a 'recent' complaint, as Peanits mentioned in his post. I was assuming you were trying to say that dead hard complaints go back years and that isn't 'recent'.
But you respond to me saying, 'no, it's actually gotten louder more recently than you think'. So now I feel like you're being contrary for the sake of argument.
Complaining about dead hard absolutely died down around the time of the nerf, then bubbled back up again later. It doesn't matter to the point if we agree on the reasons why dead hard is complained about right now.
The 'recently' in Peanits post refers to 'since the 6.1.0 nerf', which oddly, we seem to agree on.
There was still a large period of time, after the meta shakeup, but before the eruption nerf announcement, where dead hard was the most complained about perk.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359170#Comment_3359170
You can’t be surprised however, a survivor QOL roadmap and hud buffs aren’t going to be popular with the killer groups if you don’t also show a roadmap for things killers have been wanting or needing. Mainly just updates on development ideas for some killers who are in limbo like Freddy or Trapper could quell some unrest. Give us a sign that killers are treated with the same amount of care as survivors when it comes to QOL changes or perk changes.
Yeah, we still have absolutely zero information on whether or not BHVR is even considering giving killer quality of life changes or accessibility changes. The only thing killers were promised was that the kill rate would be adjusted, if that is necessary, which means that the survivor player experience is important, but killers are just reduced to their kill rate %.
Even look at the buffs killers got during the meta shakeup. It's like they were designed specifically to move the kill rate, without helping the killer player experience at all. I've seen zero people say things like "it feels better playing killer when we break pallets ever so slightly faster".
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359055#Comment_3359055
i’ll second what the guy above me said. Someone who doesn’t know the game very well doesn’t have much meaningful to contribute to a discussion on balance because they don’t know what’s going on, other than that they are upset at losing.
You also have said numerous times that you don’t balance around top level play, yet have nerfed killers such as Nurse, Deathslinger, Billy, and others even though the vast majority of players were not good enough to unlock their potential, and they were not a statistical problem. If you were truly balancing around “everyone “, those killers wouldn’t have been nerfed.
Yeah, I don't understand why BHVR released statistics that said Nurse wasn't overperforming overall, and Nurse wasn't overperforming at the top 5%, but then she needed a triple nerf anyway? Are balance decisions being made based on how many complaints something gets, regardless if the complaints are valid? If the statistics were correct, then a lot of players have obviously found decent counterplay for many of the Nurse players they face.
Are balance decisions being made because the game refuses to let people see MMR values? If matchmaking matches survivors with a Nurse player that is way above their MMR range, and the survivors lose badly, will the survivors think Nurse is overpowered, when in reality the Nurse player won because they had a much higher MMR rating?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359182#Comment_3359182
Dead Hard is a more 'recent' complaint because it became apparent that the devs were going to nerf Eruption. (Seen a couple dead hard vs Eruption posts recently?)
Any time anything changes for either killers or survivors, there's an outcry to make an equivalent change to the other. I'm not sure if it's a 'to keep things fair' reaction, or if it's just that people don't like any balance changes whatever. But the reasoning isn't as important as that it's an obvious community reaction to change.
Dead Hard was nerfed in July, and for a couple months the general sentiment online was anything from 'good riddance' to 'git gud, adapt'. (We'll come back that one).
And just like it took several months for Eruption to become meta, it took a while for people to realize that dead hard could still be useful.
So now it's December ish, 5 months after the big 6.1.0 balance patch, Knight just released with Nowhere to Hide to cap off the gen kick meta quartet, and people started really harping on Eruption being overtuned and incapacitation being oppressive.
Also in December, survivors have had enough time to fully adapt to the new perks from 6.1, and dead hard is back on the menu for a lot of people. Once it became obvious Eruption is being targeted, and the devs confirmed a change was likely, it very quickly turned to playing the 'dead hard is op' card.
Whether dead hard needs another pass is a different discussion, but the community has the impression that complaining gets things nerfed. And if someone is under the impression that loudly complaining is the only reason Eruption got nerfed, then by all means it's time to complain as loudly as possible so devs address your frustrations too.
So that's why the discussion is 'recent'.
The problem is that the complaints on these forums aren't 50/50 between both roles. It is far easier for these forums to get flooded with anti-killer posts than it is to get flooded with anti-survivor posts. Dead hard is been the most complained about killer perk for far longer than the eruption nerf announcement, but it just never got the massive flood of posts because it's just so much harder for anti-survivor posts to gain traction on these forums.
Anti survivor-posts shouldn't need to reach the flood level that anti-killer posts get, in order to be considered a "hot topic". What really happened is we got a survivor HUD, an additional feature added to the survivor HUD, a roadmap discussing further improvements for survivors, and a eruption nerf.... and all of that combined finally pushed people over the edge to start flooding the forums with anti dead hard posts.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359324#Comment_3359324
A few points:
The perk was busted against solos, weakest role in the game.
The perk was very good against SWF, if it wasn't then comp players wouldn't use it, but they did and they got caught by it
The strongest killers in the game are all M2 killers or killers that rely heavily on their powers
So why on earth would you nerf a perk to make it bad against the best killers but still the same against the worst? Eruption was too strong and was affecting more the weakest role in the game.
If M1 killers are that hot and DH is not a factor for them as people seem to be implying then you go all play M1 killers and see that goes
I would imagine that playing Nurse and Blight would still get you the win easier. Get hit by the DH and catch him in 10 seconds because your power allows you to.
So no, if DH gets nerfed it should be universal not just nerf it so the best killers get better, or bhvr could just add a new perk that inflicts Deep wound.
The official developer notes stated the concerns were that it disproportionally affected solo players. The developer notes did not mention anything regarding SWFs when they were talking about the eruption nerf.
And you keep ignoring the fact that we have many M2 killers that aren't top tier. If people are just going to say "just bait out dead hard, it only takes a few seconds", then dead hard needs to be changed so that killers like Trickster can actually deal with dead hard, while Trickster is at range and can throw knives at a survivor.
What really should be done, is dead hard needs to be nerfed with the same degree and energy as what happened to eruption. Change dead hard so it doesn't work on M2 powers, and prevent it from working when a survivor is within 5 yards of a pallet or vault. Just keep added nerfs onto it, until it's just as bad as nerfed eruption.
If we really want to whatabout M1 killers, we should whatabout the fact that many players relied on eruption when using weak M1 killers, because they needed a strong regression perk. And heavily nerfing eruption, without giving weak M1 killers any compensation, will affect them much more than it would affect strong M2 killers that didn't really need to use eruption. So, yes, the dead hard nerf should include something like "prevent it from working when a survivor is within 5 yards of a pallet or vault", so that it's also nerfed against weak M1 killers, as they need the most help in this game.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359278#Comment_3359278
What does that have anything with making DH not work with M2?
Eruption was nerfed because it allowed 3 gen stall wars. People saying the perk was bad against SWF are dreaming because the perk was used against the best survivors in comp.
If DH makes the strongest killers weaker and still they are the best killers, then why nerf the perk so the strongest can get even stronger.
If you want to nerf the perk nerf it. Don't just put these tiny exceptions where DH doesn't work if you hop on 1 leg for 5 seconds and sing Miley Cyrus
Eruption was nerfed by removing the incapacitated effect, which is what was unfairly affecting solo survivors. Similarly dead hard can be nerfed so it no longer works on M2 powers, which is what is unfairly affecting some M2 killers.
And just because someone has an M2 power that’s unfairly affected by dead hard, doesn’t mean that killer a “strong killer”. Trickster’s M2 power is unfairly affected by dead hard, and he’s not anywhere near the strong side of killers.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359255#Comment_3359255
And why should the strongest killers get stronger. Because i don't see everyone say that M1 killers are meta because of DH.
So why buff the best killers even further?
Eruption was nerfed because it affected some survivors (solo) way more than other survivors (SWF)
This is the same issue, where dead hard affects some killers (Trickster) way more than other killers (Legion).
We also need to remember that the counterplay for dead hard is garbage. We say “just go in point blank range and tap m1 to counter dead hard” and we also say “take a step back to counter 360s”. Having both these things at the same time is awful. So I’m simultaneously supposed to be in point blank range, and not point blank range, both at the same time? 360s are extra obnoxious because dead hard tells people to go into point blank range, which is where 360s are the most annoying.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359243#Comment_3359243
And why should killers that already have so many advantages over regular M1 killers get to not deal with a perk?
That makes no sense
Dead hard shouldn’t work in M2 powers, because “it only takes a few seconds to bait out dead hard” doesn’t work with some killer powers. Some killer powers are heavily telegraphed, and you can’t ever bait out dead hard with them, because the survivor could easily dead hard those powers on reaction, even if the power was done at point blank range. Some killer powers have some range to them, and it would take a lot more than “a few seconds” to get into point blank range with the survivor. Some killer powers have a bit of range to them, and by the time you can get into point blank range, the survivor is already at a place where you can’t reliably hit the survivor with your power anymore.
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@Peanits said:
To echo what others have said, we typically hold perk updates for Mid-Chapters, not Chapter releases. Eruption was originally planned for the following Mid-Chapter but was bumped up due to the amount of feedback it was getting. We found just enough time to squeeze it in to an earlier update. Dead Hard, by comparison, has become a hot topic somewhat more recently. Keep in mind our updates are planned and worked on months in advance, so it can take some time before things that are 'hot topics' see changes.
That said, I cannot confirm whether or not Dead Hard will be changed, but by no means are we ignoring the discussions about it. Keep 'em coming.
I don’t understand why Dead Hard has only recently been considered a hot topic.
Does hot topic require for people to flood these forums with post after post about dead hard? Because dead hard has been the most complained about killer perk for a while on these forums, it just hasn’t had a flood of posts until recently.
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@Peanits said:
What purpose would this actually serve other than encouraging elitism? One person's opinion is no more valid than someone else's just because their MMR is higher. Both of you are people playing a video game, we should be doing what we can to ensure that both of you have a good time. To say that only someone who's among the best in the world should have a say would imply that the opinions of the vast majority of people playing in the middle of the pack don't matter, which is incredibly selfish.
I really can't begin to stress how rare it is for someone to be near or above the matchmaking softcap for MMR. Far more people claim to be 'max MMR' when in reality, there's nowhere near that many people up there.
That said, that's what the community team is here for; to take feedback from everyone, including the people who are up there.
Every other ranked PvP game I play has visible ranks (MMR ranks). And it’s not just for elitism. Some people just want to know where they are in the rankings, and some people spend more time playing the game because they want to raise their rank.
And hiding ranks just makes other types of elitist posts, like when players say “good killers can easily counter X. You must not be a good killer if you are having problems with X”. People can make all sorts of wild accusations on these forums, specifically because no one can prove what their MMR is.