Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@VideoGameMage said:
Glad they acknowledged pain res but ignored self care.
They didn’t really acknowledge pain res. It’s still a garbage perk. I’d probably get more value out of thrilling tremors instead.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384726#Comment_3384726
This is kind of what I’m expecting as well which is why I’m more okay with the gen regression nerfs as I’m hoping we’ll get the slow down in the form of healing. The only thing I’m worried about is ignoring healing and just gen rushing. This is kind of why I’ve always thought staying injured should have some down side like a hypothetical “10% slower gens while injured” or something like that. We’ll have to wait and see how it pans out though, maybe not necessary.
I’m liking the idea of a repair speed penalty while injured. We have people on these forums that think it might be easier to just do generators while injured, so they might need an incentive to heal.
The only change I would make, is the repair speed penalty should only happen if the survivor is injured but not broken. I wouldn’t want to punish survivors for not healing, if the game was preventing them from healing, especially because killers like Plague and Legion can cause survivors to become injured.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384820#Comment_3384820
Also, i'd be surprised if after PTB they don't change it so that altrustic healing stays as 16 seconds. The biggest problem was self healing. You actually WANT survivors to group up and heal each other.
I certainly don't want survivors to group up unless the altruistic healing stays at 24 seconds. There isn't that much risk of healing if it's only 16 seconds, especially if the survivors hide a bit before healing, and extra especially if they have voice comms and are calling out the killer's location.
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@solarjin1 said:
survivors wanted three gens to be less powerful and the dev gave them what they wanna. Nerf all gen regression
Killers been asking for medkits to be look at and DH to be nerf. The devs pretty much did that.
I think the devs did a pretty good job this patch beside two things. nerfing billy and altruism healing. Hopefully the ptb take care of that
Killers have not been asking for "only medkits" to be looked at. When killers complain about healing, they don't specify a specific type of healing, because they're all currently a problem.
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@icedrake402 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384791#Comment_3384791
There's an excluded middle there. Hacking down healing times by 50% on top of everything else feels excessive. Start with 25%, adjust again if needed, while also reevaluating Mangled.
Hacking down all the good gen kicking regression perks, and hacking down pain res, feels excessive too. And since Eruption was already nerfed, that means an entire genre of game slowdown is going into the trash.
We should start with the full healing speed nerfs for a while, let the meta settle, then figure out if any adjustments need to be made. Going extreme on the killer side nerfs, but being nice and only going halfway on the survivor nerfs, isn't cool.
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@Kaius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384703#Comment_3384703
If there's an altruistic heal happening, that's at least half of the team not on a generator for 16-24 seconds, which is the trade-off. It's a complex situation but looking at it in the context of "the team has to sacrifice the main objective to make this heal happen" really helps, since in the current state of healing it really doesn't seem necessary to heal your teammates, and to be completely honest a nerf to altruism is the last thing the Survivor side needs right now, especially with SoloQ only just getting its much needed buffs.
I think nerfing altruistic healing to 20s and seeing how that pans out for the meta is probably the best call to make. This patch as a whole really feels like BHVR overnerfed a lot of things for no reason. SHPR and CoH did need to be toned down a little but they definitely went a bit far I think lol
It's not a complex situation. The goal is for injuries to feel like they matter. If altruistic healing is 20 seconds basekit, then all it takes is botany knowledge to make the new altruistic healing speeds EVEN FASTER than the current altruistic healing speeds are at basekit. And botany knowledge has infinite uses.
We all have to remember that survivors have healing speed perks, and the healing speeds need to be balanced, in consideration of the fact that survivors might equip more healing speed perks in the future.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384824#Comment_3384824
I really doubt they will revert the healing nerf but not ease up on the gen regression nerfs in that case. Unless they want to cause long juicy queue times for survivors, since they are already longer than killer queue times.
I don't want watered down gen regression perks. I want a meta where I'm encouraged to chase survivors. It's so boring being near a hooked survivor or a 3 gen, and a survivor clicks their flashlight rom 40 yards away, and I say to myself "it's a complete waste of time to chase after them, because altruistic healing speeds are so quick, that injuries don't matter."
How am I supposed to feel like injuries matter, if BHVR caters to survivors, and gives them altruistic healing speeds that are so quick that survivors think they are fine? The fact that survivors are fine with 20 second altruistic healing speeds, proves that it's not enough to make survivors feel like injuries matter. The healing speeds need to be slow enough for survivors to complain about it, because that is the baseline for "everyone can feel like injuries matter"
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@mees said:
The nerfs the devs did this PTB is insane. They literally killed almost al the perks they 'nerfed'. After the changes there won't be a single gen reggression perk that's worth using, wich is insane because if you have one bad chase you will immediatly lose the game cause there will be no way ro recover. But this is al kinda balanced because of the healing nerf, but this will only work on lower mmr, because they will heal up because they are to scared to stay injured. But the higher mmr survivors are more confortable staying injured on a gen and will just leave the gen early when the killer aproached and then they will just slam it with resiliance and prove thyself and there will be no way for killers to commit to a chase without losing all the gens. Wich means that on high MMR every killer would get destroyed unless they are playing nurse or blight.
Also I just realised that it takes time for overcharge to start regressing faster so not only does it reggress at 130 now instead of 200 you still have to wait 30 seconds for it to go at 130%. But atleast it starts at 85 instead of 75 now💀. Oh and they nerfed the skill check penalty to.
Btw I know i sound like a angry killer main that only sees the down side for killer but believe me i know survivors had some bad nerfes too im just saying that the heling nerf doesn't matter when you go against a team that already doesn't heal.
The worst part is we might not even get the full healing nerf. Of course, the killer nerfs like call of brine and overcharge will go through, but due to popular demand the altruistic healing speed nerf might not happen. So killers will get to suffer the gen kicking regression perks, but survivors might get to shrug off their healing nerfs due to popular demand. So get ready for another miserable meta for killer, where gen regression is garbage and chases still won't matter.
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We're not even sure if the meta shakeup is allowed to happen. Survivors are demanding for some of the healing nerfs to be reverted, and if that happens, then the meta shakeup falls apart. Killers won't be encouraged to chase survivors, and instead they'll be encouraged to stay in one place to defend an area, even if it's boring for everyone in the game.
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@CoolerBleend said:
I think it would be alot healthier if BHVR kept altruistic healing at 16 charges but made self healing 24 charges, as this would fix the problem with people healing especially quickly by themselves while not making it excrutiatingly long when healing others.
Also, Self Care could probably get buffed to 50% again, maybe even 60-75% as it would still be double the time as finding someone else at 75% (32 seconds).
The problem is people healing especially quickly, regardless of the method used. Altruistic healing speeds are currently a problem, especially if survivors use healing speed perks. SWFs can easily coordinate altruistic healing with their voice comms, and reverting the altruistic healing speed nerf will allow SWFs to just bypass the healing nerfs.
Yes, the point is that all the healing times should be long enough that they feel impactful for both sides. It's supposed to be inconvenient for survivors when someone gets injured. If healing speeds are so quick that survivors are cool with it, then they are way too fast for killers to believe that injuries matter.
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Altruistic healing speeds need a nerf so that injuries can feel like they matter.
This has nothing to do with evaluating the different types of healing, to determine if some types of healing are more problematic than others. The goal is to make injuries feel like they matter, and this requires altruistic healing speeds to get a heavy impactful nerf.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384594#Comment_3384594
Well sure, and I am sure BHVR is aware of the ratio between survivor and killer players. But if the feedback becomes too overwhelmingly negative regarding the healing nerf, then I do think it would be smart to decrease the healing to 20 seconds.
We'll see how it will be in the ptb later this day, but I as well could very well imagine 24 seconds being overkill. I still love the direction that BHVR is going with this game however.
That's exactly the problem though. If the majority of voices are survivors that don't want to be nerfed, then the overwhelming opinion would be to revert survivor nerfs.
Compare this to killers, where the amount of feedback regarding the regression perk changes is super low, even though BHVR is literally destroying an entire genre of game slowdown. It's impossible for killers to get an overwhelming opinion, because they just don't have the numbers to compete when survivors are also complaining about things. The result is that if we go by popular opinion, killers would always lose, and survivors would always win.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384550#Comment_3384550
That nerf is kind of needed when considering the large nerfs to the main regression perks. The entire idea is to give killers more slowdown by playing well and injuring a lot of survivors, and less by simply equipping perks and kicking gens.
I think it's a very good change, and doubt they will revert it, because of the slowdown perks also getting nerfed. I can see it going down to 20 seconds however, if too many people feel that 24 seconds is overkill.
I don’t think we should move the healing to 20 seconds, just because it’s a popular opinion. Games have 4 survivors to every 1 killer, and it’s so easy for survivor opinions to become the majority.
Game balance decisions should be made depending on what is best for the game, and not just because a suggestion is popular.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384327#Comment_3384327
You...understand that I play almost exclusively Killer, right?
All of my changes are coming from a "Killer-main" point of view.
No, I really DON'T want 2018 DBD back and ESPECIALLY not with today's competitive mindsets.
Your posts are very survivor sided. I don't care what side you actually main.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384167#Comment_3384167
I also mentioned multiple times that injuries matter plenty when you know how to use them, and you have a method to deal with self-healing. I've played more than enough Clown games that utilize that combination of pressure of injury, hook, and interception to win.
I would argue that universal heal speed nerfs will encourage even more camping and tunneling. If people get injured and need to heal, scummy Killers will be all the more empowered to camp as they will know Survs can't heal and reach the hook in time for a trade/rescue. Exact same problem with tunneling if basekit BT is going to remain at 10s. I can be a Scratched Mirror Myers on the opposite side of most maps, and I'll know I can still reach the hook before they finish the heal.
All I can do is help people play the game. Every Ghostface playing 'Chaseface' that I come across loses to me playing Survivor, so I try to push them in the right direction of using M2. You wouldn't play Huntress without hatchets, but all too many people think chasing as Ghostface is the path to victory.
If people think the injuries they inflict don't matter, but in my matches they do matter, all I can think is I know something they don't. The problem is I don't know what I don't know, or more accurately, what they don't know. Another problem is learning takes effort, and plenty of people are too lazy or otherwise unwilling/unable to learn different strategies and methods to improve. Many people fall back on the devil they know, and resort to camping and tunneling since they are disproportionately rewarded for the effort and skill involved. One route is to play soloq surv and remember the sting of how unfun that match was when the killer camped or tunneled. Strive to do better, to not inflict that same torment on others, y'know have sympathy. The best help I can give people though is to recommend they record their matches, delete the wins, and think of what they could have done differently to win in the losses. Do I break the pallet/force the drop on this side or the other? Do I mindgame this part of the loop or fake the mindgame while holding W? That is the long version of 'git gud', but people don't take kindly to hearing it phrased the short way.
I do think camping and tunneling are problems of design, because the risk is low, and the reward is high. We can either increase the risk, or decrease the reward. I think the reward of a hook state is appropriate for tunneling, but the risk should be far higher. I would have anti-tunnel endurance sources all stack, along with DS being reverted to 5s. That way the risk is high, as you never know which endurance proc is the last, and the reward is high to match. For camping, longer hook timers is the best I can come up with. If the timer is extended then as Killer you can guarantee 1 kill, but nothing beyond that for what essentially amounts to not playing the game. The threat of the remaining survs completing gens while you are camping needs to have bite, but I don't think reducing gen times is the answer either. That leaves the best solution to be hook times. Arguably there could be a hybrid hook timer, where if a facecamp is detected then gens progress at triple speed, but that requires a lot more than a simple number tweak. If we want to shift the meta towards chases, and away from camping and tunneling this would more than equitably accomplish those goals. Heck, if these happened alongside the healing nerfs then it would probably be fine, as it would ensure killers won't resort to camping and tunneling. Hence the thread.
It doesn't matter if you personally think injuries matter. It's clear that many killers don't think injuries matter, which is why the 3 gen situations are out of control, and is why BHVR literally made a dev update telling us they want injuries to feel like they matter.
When killers choose to stick to a 3 gen, and refuse to chase survivors, it's because they don't think chases are worth it, and they don't think injuries matter enough to leave their 3 gen. This is the problem the game is having, and we should be giving killers positive reinforcement to go on chases.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383703#Comment_3383703
Whataboutism?
I literally just addressed PR in my post. Did you not see that part?
Pointing out a double standard is valid.
Dead Hard deserves a heavy nerf, and you're trying to completely undo it, by allowing survivors to easily force a dead hard activation. The whole purpose of this meta shift, is to encourage killers to chase more, and that requires dead hard to go away, because dead hard is a massive demotivator for chasing survivors.
This is so sad, that here I am hoping BHVR can reach their goal of making chases more valuable, and a bunch of other people want to completely sabotage that goal, because they don't want survivor to be nerfed. A chase motivated meta is healthy for the game, and people should want this to happen. Do people actually like it when killers just park themselves in an area, and refuse to move? Really, no one wants to see if this meta can work? You all just want to complain to BHVR that the entire burden of the meta shift should be on killers, and survivors should just get what they want with minimum inconvenience?
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383999#Comment_3383999
IIRC the patch notes said its impossible for med-kits to heal more than once in a trial.
Medkits will be able to heal up a maximum of twice....
Source (Developer Update) "now impossible for a Med-kit to fully heal a Survivor more than twice in a match"
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384140#Comment_3384140
You being blinded by 'main-brain' is the only thing I can think that is preventing you from recognizing it is a problem. You haven't provided any arguments beyond 'I don't like it', so why is your opinion more valid than others? If it is merely opinion against opinion then surely math, rock solid inarguable facts would sway you, but they don't. You apparently think everyone is a Survivor main, only arguing to protect their toys. Both Otzdarva and OhTofu, prominent Killer mains can recognize it would be a grave mistake, so I'm confused what is preventing you from seeing that as well. The nerf is proposed, not locked in stone. Most people do think it is fair and balanced to not destroy the game, so what is tricking you into thinking otherwise? Most people are against kicking puppies, is that because they are dog lovers and hate cats? I would argue most people can understand bad things when they are told about them.
I've already mentioned multiple times that all healing needs to be nerfed so that injuries can feel like they matter. I've played enough games, that were 100% altruistic healing, to know that injuries won't matter unless altruistic healing speed gets a large nerf.
And the biggest reason is because this is what BHVR wants to do to shift the meta, so that it encourages killers to go on chases. Without the full healing speed nerfs, the meta won't shift, and killers will be encouraged to continue to just camp and tunnel, because it just won't be worth it to chase a survivor when you could be defending an area instead.
It doesn't matter how much math you throw at us, unless killers feel like injuries and chases matter, then you're telling killers they should be encouraged to camp and tunnel, because it's a much higher value strategy.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384026#Comment_3384026
I personally like SH:PR in its current iteration (not the proposed), but I can see how camping and recycling the hook can be a problem. I also would prefer Pop (max, not current) and ruin (back to 200%) to revert half of their nerfs, alongside DS (5s still). I also think they should revert the nerfs to Thana, and the shadow nerf to Bamboozle, which prevents it from speeding up modified vaults like Legion and Wesker. If I were in charge of the SH:PR change, I would either have PR proc 2x max per individual hook, or have a hook once used as a Scourge, makes a different hook (that never has been a Scourge hook) become a Scourge hook.
Even then, regression is the Dead Hard of Killer perks. It is a second chance source from a perk. Killer mains (as opposed to both sides enjoyers) hate DH so much, but can't see they are doing the same thing (both sides enjoyers understand and don't care lol). I don't like DH as Survivor due to lag, and don't mind it as Killer because I hate Sprint Burst much more. If you are a Killer main you don't see failed DHs, or moments where you are like 'I friggin pressed E, what the heck stupid laggy/buggy game'. Honestly the only fair version of DH I can come up with only provides Endurance against Special Attacks. That way M1 killers aren't nerfed, and the problem killers are still counterable.
Also COB/OC/Eruption never even required hooks, so they were always unearned, and not centered around playing for hooks (less so for Eruption, but still). Pop and SH:PR both required skill and advancing the win condition, and are healthy for the game. Anyone relying on gameplay without skill just wanted to play a single player game on story-mode difficulty. I hold that position for OC+COB/Blight/Nurse/Clock callout SWFs/4 Syringe and or BNPs, and probably more that I can't think of right now.
The issue you are mentioning is people don't want slower ALTRUISTIC healing, but near everyone understands selfish healing is absurd and should be fixed. Altruistic healing makes sense since it prevents half the Survivors from doing gens. That in and of itself is 50% slowdown. Having someone on hook is 25% slowdown, and chasing someone brings that up to another 25% for 50% total slowdown. If you are chasing someone with someone on hook and the other 2 need to heal up, you have 100% slowdown. You can reach 100% slowdown with 0 perks, just skill. If you can end that chase quick enough then the survivors are in a death spiral, and you can win without them completing a single gen.
The majority of people are against slower altruistic healing, because the majority of the people don't want survivors to get nerfed, and this seems like the easiest thing to latch onto. This has nothing to do with what is fair and balanced. People are just trying to get a nerf reverted due to popular opinion.
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Don't worry, because hit and run will still be dead if the altruistic healing buffs get reverted. There's zero reason to hit and run if SWFs can just bypass the healing nerfs, by using their voice comms to coordinate altruistic healing. Killers would be better off just hard tunneling people like they do now.
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@ehe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383695#Comment_3383695
I feel your comment doesnt really address the OP's concern. Even though I agree with you, the fact of the matter is that many of the perks being nerfed in the upcoming midchapter were balanced perks.
Take Pain Resonance, most would agree the perk itself is balanced, rewarding killers for winning chases and punishing survivors for losing them. The only real issue with the perk was it synergizes with tunneling; its easier to down the unhooked survivor than the rescuer, and no drawback for doing so.
The upcoming change to the perk does address this, however in turn it reverses the issue. While tunneling with Pain Resonance is no longer beneficial, not tunneling doesnt provide enough value either. You go out of your way to not tunnel and only hook on scourges, for an overall 60% regression. And then its gone. With this change, tunneling isnt viable with pain res but neither is pain res itself.
Which of course, has led many to believe its 30% pickrate was the sole reason for its nerf, without really considering the reasoning for high pickrates. This is happening with Hillbilly's Engravings addons as well. Then the severity of the nerfs causes a loss of faith in the developers; many players now think that balancing isnt the priority, and that replacing the meta is.
And while none of us players can say whether or not this is true, we have seen examples of this time and time again. Ruin rewarded spreading pressure and playing the macrogame, and mostly needed undying for consistency. Thats 50% of perk slots just for Ruin. PGTW needed a hook, map traversal (more chases), choosing which gen needs it most, then spending the time to kick.
While a greatly revered patch, 6.1.0 left these perks dead. Ruin with its halved regression and kill deactivation, and PGTW being reduced to the dreaded "current" progression making it much more situational. Had it not been for the severe outcry, eruption would've been given the same treatment.
And now, we have Call of Brine, Overcharge, and Pain Resonance. Many regard these as the last bastions of good regression perks, and with these frankly excessive nerfs they'll be soon joining with PGTW and Ruin.
In my opinion as part of this playerbase, dethroning the meta shouldn't be the priority. While this increases perk variety temporarily, its only a matter of time until a new meta creeps in and the cycle repeats. Instead, the developers should take far more consideration into their changes and really examine why something is meta. With this in mind, something perks wouldnt be overbuffed like Eruption, and perks wouldnt be overnerfed like Ruin.
Thank you for your time.
The saddest part of this upcoming patch, and that due to popular demand, all the killer perk nerfs are likely to stay, yet some of the survivor nerfs will get reverted, just because survivors are way louder on these forums than killers are.
Because seriously, when I add up all the posts complaining about the upcoming killer nerfs, and add up all the posts complaining about the survivor nerfs, there are way Way WAY more posts complaining about the survivor nerfs. There's a zero chance that killers will ever get a balanced deal if the devs are looking for popular opinions to determine which nerfs to keep to revert.
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@BougieBlackChick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383765#Comment_3383765
I appreciate your response but these changes don’t say “bold” to me, they say extreme and overkill. You wanna nerf circle of healing? Cool. Why nerf it to the point that bringing it is a wasted perk slot? If you need a medkit or another survivor to heal you in COH regardless what’s the point of bringing the perk? For the few extra seconds off healing?
You wanna nerf overpowered medkits? Cool. Why nerf them to the point where it makes no sense to even have more than one kind of medkit if the nerf is meant to make sure that no medkit can heal you more than twice per match?
Why is basekit healing even being touched to begin with when you’re nerfing the most popular healing perk and healing items? How is neefing every form of healing all at once helping to balance anything?
There are many games that are 100% altruistic healing, because that is the default method of healing. Altruistic healing speeds need a heavy nerf, or we'll have a whole bunch of games where injuries won't feel like they matter.
Nerfing every form of healing is helping injuries feel like they matter. Do people want killers to be encouraged to chase after survivors, or is everyone cool with the current environment where killers are encouraged to defend an area and just watch survivors run away over and over? We need strong impactful healing nerfs, so that chases and injuries can be more valuable, to the point where it's a better idea for killers to chase survivors than trying to hold down a 3 gen for long periods of time.
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@Peanits said:
I respect the theory, but I assure you there's nowhere near as much scheming going on as you might think. I would love nothing more than to announce some changes and celebrate with people as they say, "Wow, this is perfect!" from the get-go. Obviously that's easier said than done with an asym game, but we try our best.
In reality, we just aren't afraid to try bold things. The PTB exists for a reason. We can try these things out and see how people feel. If it's not popular; that's fine, we can change it before it goes live. We've gotten a lot better at this as time has gone on. There's a lot more knobs and switches we can fiddle with behind the scenes to make these changes a lot quicker than before, making it less risky to try. Basically, be bold, but be receptive.
Ultimately, nobody can say for sure how people are going to feel about something until it's actually out there. Not even us. We would much rather test things and get feedback than be too scared to touch anything and constantly wonder, "What if?"
I’m seriously hoping “if it’s not popular” doesn’t literally mean “revert survivor nerfs if that is the popular opinion”, because then killers would be absolutely doomed.
Look at the forums now, where we have a few threads complaining about the killer nerfs, and these threads are absolutely lost among the giant flood of threads complaining about survivor nerfs. This will not change when the PTB happens, and the popular opinion on these forums will continue to be “revert the altruistic healing nerf because it’s not popular among the survivor population”.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383819#Comment_3383819
Disagree.
Some changes are bad enough that they do not need to be tested outside of a PTB.
Fortunately, none of the proposed changes are bad enough.
Survivors have had so many patches recently that favored survivors. And killers kept getting told “every patch doesn’t need to favor killers”. Now we finally have a patch that can be good for killers, and we should just let it happen, because every patch doesn’t need to favor survivors.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383787#Comment_3383787
I think that the healing nerfs will do the opposite.
Makes 3 gens, camping and tunneling way easier to do. You can say that hit and run will be buffed and killers will have more reason to chase.
But i see the healing nerfs making those strategies i said before way more easy to do and win.
Survivors waste more time if they need to protect someone being tunneled, survivors waste 48s to heal themselves and rescue a survivor getting facecamped.
Survivors will waste more time healing or need to try and do the 3 gens injured.
So, i don't believe the heal changes for the altruism was fair. And that the negative consequences and ramifications where well thought out.
So, yes. Maybe hit/run and chasing survivors will be more viable. But look of what chaos can also occur.
And again. I was talking more in terms of fun and excitement for the patch, not even talking about balance or health of the game
Both sides can create exaggerated claims. Killers can claim that if all the good gen kicking regression perks are nerfed, that it would be impossible to defend generators, and survivors will just gen rush every game. And we need to look at the consequences and ramifications of nerfing an entire genre of game slowdown, because nerfing so many of these perks is unfair.
But doomsaying doesn’t really help the game at all. And trying to get some of the survivor nerfs reverted, because of popular feedback, is dangerous thinking, because it implies that the popular opinions are always the best opinions.
We shouldn’t be looking at this as a negotiation phase. We should be trying all these changes for a good solid amount of time, to see how the meta evolves, and work from there.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383750#Comment_3383750
I am happy that you feel excited.
But i don't. I see the patch and only see nerfs to fun options, the removal of fun interactions and a bigger focus on objectives.
You are free to like it and maybe it will be an healthier game, i doubt because of the altruism healing speed. But even if it is, the first impression is terribly bad for me. Why should i be excited for an update that removes stuff and doesn't add anything.
I have seen this trend in other games, where they remove options and tools in updates or sequels. Again, maybe the game will be better, but there is no way to advertise it for me to be excited. I am just wondering if i will still find the game fun or if we enter a new meta that we all hate and with less fun tools and options to use, maybe have less incentive to keep going and just give up.
It’s adding the potential of a meta shift, that encourages chasing survivors instead of defending an area.
Of course there are parts of this plan that I don’t like. I currently use a lot of gen kick regression perks. I used to use eruption before it’s nerf, and that nerf felt really bad. I currently use the other gen kicking regression perks, and it feels really bad those are going away too. But I’m trying to look at the big plan, where changes are happening to both sides, to try to create a healthier meta.
Yes, we get a lot of survivors saying that if the full altruistic healing nerfs happen, that survivors will refuse to heal. But why aren’t we ever talking about the other role? Why aren’t we also saying that if the full altruistic healing nerfs don’t happen, that killers will refuse to chase survivors when they have a 3 gen? We know a bunch of killers are currently doing this, where they prioritize their 3 gen, and it’s a reasonable question to wonder if killers will still do this, if survivors don’t get the full healing speed nerfs.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383695#Comment_3383695
Still this update was more focused around nerfs and we had next to no buffs. So of course that feels bad, feels like the devs took away fun and didn't add anything to replace.
Besides i think most people agreed that PR was in a good spot balance wise as it encouraged chases by the killers and rewards regression by progressing the game.
While DH was annoying for killers, it also rewarded gameplay that most survivors consider fun. Taking chases and prolonging chases with the killer. While all other exhaustion have more focus on getting away from a chase.
While i agree that you can't just buff everything because of power creep. If the strong parts of the game are things people find enjoyable, i don't see a reason to nerf them to create variety.
DH is one of the reasons why killers don’t value chases as much as they should. If a killer has a 3-gen, and sees a survivor that immediately tried to run across the map, then it seems like a giant waste to time to chase them, when the killer might need to go through 3 full health states. It doesn’t help that all healing speeds are way too fast, and injuries don’t feel like they matter.
If the DH nerf, and all the healing speed needs happen, then we should be in a much healthier meta, where chases feel like they are valuable, and injuries feel like they matter.
This shouldn’t be a negotiation phase, where people try to get nerfs reverted because they don’t want their side to be nerfed. We should be actually trying out this meta for a few months, so we can see where it settles. I’m so tired of this healing meta, where it feels like it’s a much better game decision to defend an area than it is to chase survivors.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383640#Comment_3383640
We can do both. Injuries matter when the time investment is enough to trick people into healing, but not enough to be better than doing gens. Currently the flaw with healing is selfish healing is a strictly better time investment. Altruistic healing is the Goldilocks just right. The proposed changes make healing not worth the effort UNLESS self-healing. This isn't catering to survivors, this is catering to game health. This is not making a disastrous change 'because'.
Every time I hear a boon as killer I sigh the same resigned sigh since the game is going to take a lot longer than it should. That is the exact same sigh as when I play surv and the killer kicks the same gen for the 20th time with OC/CoB. The perks are the problem here, not the basekit mechanic. If they want to adjust the basekit mechanic of healing to take 50% longer, then it should also take 50% longer to die on hook.
Healing will still be worth it even if the full altruistic healing speed nerf happens. Playing injured will be way more risky after the dead hard nerf.
And we do need the full altruistic healing nerf in order for injuries to feel like they matter. Remember that the goal isn’t to evaluate which survivor mechanics are problematic. The goal is to make injuries feel like they matter. The current flaw in this game is that injuries don’t feel like they matter. They might matter to you, because you are totally against this survivor nerf, but to many other people they don’t feel like they matter.
BHVR wants the healing speed nerf to effect every hit, so that injuries can feel like they matter. This is the goal. It’s fine, and should be tried out for a few months.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383661#Comment_3383661
No other Exhaustion perk, other than Smash Hit and Adrenaline, have a hard cap on their amount of uses. I do not believe that should be a limiting factor for DH. You would already be giving up a health state in a meta where healing is going to be very difficult.
The condition is safe unhooks, on purpose, to place a hard cap on the number of uses. The condition should never be protection hits, or anything else that could potentially be unlimited.
This is supposed to be a major perk nerf. Why it is ok for killer stuff to get nerfed into the ground, but whenever survivor stuff is targeted, people try to turn it into a negotiation phase?
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383616#Comment_3383616
There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally, with being mentally-afk kicking the 3 gens over and over until the survivors kill themselves rather than submit to the torture. Even if you wanted to run 4 Slowdown you can still easily run No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, and Jolt/Pop.
The abusive part is being fixed. They didn't nerf Eruption's 10% or Jolt's 8% per gen, they didn't nerf the basekit regression rate, they didn't nerf the 2.5% max progress regression on kick, they didn't nerf any of the Killer's basekit in nerfing the problem perks. They are nerfing the basekit of Survivor, even the non-problem parts, so the least they could do is nerf the basekit problem part of Killer to keep things in line.
Edit: Also the important part is healing is not being nerfed to make up for the problem perks being nerfed. Nowhere in the dev update do they even pretend that is the reason. The regression perks being nerfed mainly mention their overuse being the reason for being brought down. The only healing aspect you can fairly claim is CoH being nerfed alongside them, not healing in and of itself.
The official reason for the healing speed nerfs is so injuries can feel like they matter. But it feels like a whole bunch of people don’t care at all about this official reason, because they want to completely ruin it by demanding for the altruistic healing speed nerf to be reverted.
We can’t do both. We either have injuries that feel like they matter, or we cater to survivors and ruin the entire meta shift.
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@That_One_Friend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383606#Comment_3383606
I'm not saying the changes are bad. Im glad medkits got nuked and healing is slower, its just on paper the changes feel too much when combined with certain perks/addons. Maybe im wrong and on PTB its nowhere near as bad as it seems
Survivors have healing speed perks, and if they feel like the healing speed nerfs are impactful, then they can start bringing healing speed perks to help with it.
And the survivor healing speed perks can have huge percentages. Like sometimes 50% to 100% more effectiveness.
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@That_One_Friend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383606#Comment_3383606
I'm not saying the changes are bad. Im glad medkits got nuked and healing is slower, its just on paper the changes feel too much when combined with certain perks/addons. Maybe im wrong and on PTB its nowhere near as bad as it seems
Survivors have healing speed perks, and if they feel like the healing speed nerfs are impactful, then they can start bringing healing speed perks to help with it.
And the survivor healing speed perks can have huge percentages. Like sometimes 50% to 100% more effectiveness.
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@mizark3 said:
If we want all forms of heals to take 50% longer, then should we also make hooks take 50% longer per stage? This would only nerf camping abuses. To be fair Reassurance and Camaraderie would also need a 50% increase in duration as well. It only makes sense right?
No. Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter.
The killer perk nerfs are absolutely huge, as in they nerfed those perks into the ground. This is a fair trade, as BHVR is basically destroying an entire genre of game slowdown.
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Perks that require all 4 survivors to be hooked, will never be good. There are so many games where I’m playing killer and the 4th survivor is IMMERSED, and I don’t even see them at all until at least 2 or 3 survivors are dead.
Killers don’t have a realistic way to ensure they can find all 4 survivors.
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@Annso_x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381715#Comment_3381715
Yes, Pain Res will still be a good perk, and will also reward killers who don't tunnel. That's good changes. I also don't have a problem with survivors having to cleanse totems or unhook survivors safely to activate perks such as future DH, it makes really good perks still as good but only limits them in their uses, which I would take any day over nerfing good perks to the ground.
"All the good regression perks": There's still a bunch of them that are good, mostly if you're the type of people who stack them. The ones that will get nerfed here won't even become bad, they'll just stop being good enough they guarantee a win for any killer who 3 gens. If you're happy with the current 3 gens meta then sure your game got ruined, if you're one the many people who don't enjoy it, you should be relieved it's probably coming to an end.
Also the compensation is the healing, DH & CoH nerfs, as injuring survivors without downing them will hopefully not be useless (or even punishing) now, and will also be easier bc they won't get DH for free. All in all, we'll need to see how the changes perform live, but the 3 gens meta dying is definitely not bad thing.
Injuring survivors will still feel useless if any of the healing speed nerfs are reverted. 20 second altruistic healing would make injuries still feel meaningless, especially if the survivors have healing speed perks.
And this is the big problem. The meta shift requires the healing nerfs to be impactful enough that survivors won’t like the nerfs, so of course we’re going to get a lot of survivor complaints about the healing nerfs.
There isn’t room for compromising here. There isn’t a solution that will make both sides happy. We either implement the full healing nerfs so that killers can feel like an impactful change was made…… or we can cater to survivors, and tell killers that injuries won’t matter and they should continue to be encouraged to defend areas instead of chasing survivors.
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All the healing nerfs should stay in place. Of course there is criticism. Survivors don’t want to get nerfed.
And notice the popular theme is that the killer nerfs should go through, but the most important survivor nerf should be reverted. It’s like people don’t want to trade at all, and just want their specific side to be better.
BHVR wants injuries to feel like they matter, and survivors just want to completely ruin this entire meta shift, by trying to convince BHVR to revert some of the survivor nerfs.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383255#Comment_3383255
Let's be honest here, you seem to be the most butthurt out of all people in this thread.
I have already explained why I think these changes are good. If you disagree, fine, but in the end it's just too bad for you. BHVR will surely still change things before this update goes live, but I doubt they will just revert the update and not go in the direction they clearly want to go in with this game.
The main reason why medkits are so strong is because you cut the time it takes to heal in half. Instead of two survivors healing for 16 seconds, only one survivor has to waste time healing for 16 seconds. But it gets even worse when people use addons like crazy.
Now that part hasn't changed, but by increasing heal times in general, and by greatly restricting how many times you can heal yourself with medkits, medkits will be less of a problem. That coupled with the fact that healing generally will take longer now, and killers will be able to apply much more pressure themselves by playing well. And as compensation, the best slowdown perks are all getting nerfed, which in my opinion is a good thing.
We'll have to wait and see how exactly this plays out on the ptb. I still believe 20 second healing time would be fairer, but who knows. I definitely like the direction that BHVR is going with these changes.
The changes will only be good if they are the full 24 seconds. Having 20 second basekit healing won’t be enough for injuries to feel like they matter, especially if survivors start bringing more healing speed perks.
This game needs to encourage killers to chase survivors more. This requires healing speeds to be slow enough that survivors feel like it’s an inconvenience. If the healing nerfs are so weak that survivors are fine with it, then they won’t be enough to motivate killers to chase survivors more.
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@Geiz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383245#Comment_3383245
Three survivors healing means no one is popping a gen but a survivor healing theirself means two are popping gens and at least one is in chase, potentially of course.
So currenly it is better for me bring a green medkit and tell the other survivors to do gens, but next update, it won't benefit at all doing neither so in the end people will start rushing gens even more and playing safe harder now than risky so it won't fix the problem of gens being faster but now it will be even more faster and you also know what? people won't be altruistic anymore - people will even more play for themselves (which is soloq it's already like this).
But honestly we will see what happens, I do expect in six months (or less tbh) people from both sides will start complaining again about gens being done really fast and others will say this is the worst meta they've been through.
Survivors trying to play the game injured, might not be a good idea after the patch, because of the dead hard nerf.
Also, survivors do have the option to bring healing speed perks, and we should try all the healing speed nerfs intact for a while, to see what survivor meta evolves from these changes.
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@Geiz said:
I do not think so. They nerfed altruistic healing for no reason at all, the main problem was self healing which are strong currently but not altruistic healing.
The altruistic healing should remain untouched. They also removed one of hardest counterplay against Nurse, which is insane.
They did not touch any of top tier killers for nerfing when making those changes, DH was the most balanced perk against those killers, but without it now, Nurse, Blight and Spirit will be stronger than ever now. CoH was also really great against them (though I agree 100% this perk should never been existed at first).
The developer update says "First, healing will now take 24 seconds by default (previously 16 seconds). This will make each hit more impactful, ensuring that Survivors need to spend longer to heal their wounds.
Altruistic healing is being nerfed to make each hit more impactful. That is word for word from the developer update. Some games are 100% altruistic healing, so it's especially important that altruistic healing gets the full healing speed nerf. BHVR is purposely nerfing the gen kick regression perks into the ground, and moving the slowdown to all healing, to encourage killers to go on more chases..... which is what we should all want.
If we want killers to be encouraged to go on chases, then those chases need to be more valuable, and the healing speed nerfs do this. Without the altruistic healing nerf, then the extra motivation to chase survivors won't be there AT ALL in some games, because some games are 100% altruistic healing.
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@papi_papayaa said:
I hope the developers start making polls or asking the community for what changes are needed in the game itself. Image a game where the develops ask the players what changes are needed? A quick poll could help them make this game so much. I'm really scared for the future of DBD, the changes over the last few years have caused good players to leave and more and more people are leaving the game the learning curve for new players is already hard as it is, I love this game but its getting worse over time and I hate to see it destroy itself.
Polls won't work. Games have a ratio of 4 survivors to 1 killer. If we go by popular vote, then guess which side is going to win?
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All healing basekit speeds should remain at 24 seconds, and if self care is a problem, that specific perk can be readjusted so its penalty is less than it currently is.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383044#Comment_3383044
The only thing i am asking is for base healing to be 16s. So med kits get that de buff to self healing to keep them at 24s.
Everything else, i don't care. The devs decide.
If base healing stays at 16s, then some games will have zero healing speed nerfs. I don't see medkits in every game, and I've seen many games that are 100% altruistic healing.
Injuries currently don't feel like they matter, and this includes games that are 100% altruistic healing. All healing needs to have a noticeable healing speed nerf, so that every game can include the healing speed nerf.
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@yauniqua said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381873#Comment_3381873
Passive gen regression from perks =/= basekit healing.
We know they aren't the same thing. But BHVR wants change game slowdown, where the slowdown moves from gen regression to basekit healing. That's the whole point of the meta shift, and it requires all basekit healing to be slowed down.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382607#Comment_3382607
They probably won’t because both COB and overcharge are near universally hated and other regression options still exist. And eruption number was reverted so it’s clear they will revert based on feedback for both sides
Healing is a base gameplay mechanic. Nerfing that especially altruistically is going too far imo (For reference the medkit nerfs are 100% justified)
But the problem is all this change does is encourage medkit use more because altruistic healing is still 2x as inefficient
Nerfing all healing speeds encourages survivors to use healing speed perks. I don't know why people keep bringing up medkits as if they're the only thing that can help healing survivors.
People might start running We'll Make It, or Botany Knowledge, or any of the other healing speed perks. It is possible for survivors to adapt to a full altruistic healing speed nerf, and it's a fair trade considering that Eruption, Call of Brine, Overcharge, and Pain Resonance will all nerfed into the ground.
The current gen kicking regression perks can massively extend the length of a match, which was a frequent complaint on these forums. The healing speed nerfs are a much healthier version of slowdown, and it's much more healthy than trying to increase the overall gen repair time as compensation for the killer perk nerfs.
And again, slowdown does need to be in every game, so if slowdown is being attached to healing, it needs to be attached to altruistic healing, because some games are 100% altruistic healing. Killers currently don't think that injuries matter in this game, and that includes games that are 100% altruistic healing.
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@Annso_x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382539#Comment_3382539
I'm sorry to let you know that yes, in fact, we can. Maybe the problem doesn't come from your hearing but your sound system though? In any case, you should be able to hear it so having a visual clue isn't a buff, it's just giving you the same information other players have.
And to answer your other concern, I'm pretty sure it was said on twitter or somewhere that the hearbeat won't appear because of a killer's lullaby. (unless I'm wrong of course)
So, real story happening. I checked my headphone sound settings, turned up the bass setting, and I hear the heartbeat noises over the generator noises now lol. Sorry, please disregard my previous complaint.
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@Phasmamain said:
What is the point here?
Maybe they’ll revert the 24 second heal change because it has some issues but other than that it’s fine. Stop making things up
That is the point people are trying to make. Survivors are already trying to get the altruistic healing speed nerf reverted. Do you think BHVR will revert the gen kicking regression perks? So we shouldn’t have any of the healing nerfs reverted either.
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382333#Comment_3382333
Their intent is stupid nonsense. That's the problem. Nerfing medkits so they can't heal you in ten seconds is fine. Nerfing altruistic healing is idiotic, unnecessary, and will directly buff camping.
Their intent deserves to be tried for a while. The real reason why people want to revert the altruistic healing nerf, is they don't want to be really inconvenienced by the healing nerf, and they want the option to bypass the healing nerfs.
Also, survivors have a bunch of healing speed perks they could use, to help with the altruistic healing speeds, and we need all the healing speed nerfs to happen for a while, so we can see if survivors start using them.
Remember that if altruistic healing basekit is 16 seconds, then a survivor with We'll Make It can heal a survivor in 8 seconds. And if altruistic healing basekit is 20 seconds, then a survivor with We'll Make It can heal a survivor in 10 seconds. You just said being able to heal a survivor in ten seconds is bad, and that is what survivors can do by bringing one perk, if the altruistic healing nerfs are reverted.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382248#Comment_3382248
Wondering whether you’re maybe a bit hard of hearing yourself, or have trouble listening out for specific things. Either way, this change sounds like its a buff for you. You, specifically.
With exception of Pinhead’s specifically, I never had any trouble distinguishing the TR music’s 3 phases over gen repairs. So I’m really not sure what you’re on about.
Are you honestly telling me that when there is far away super faint terror radius music, and you're repairing a generator that is making loud noises, that you can hear the faint terror radius music over the generator noises?
I'm not talking about a killer that's close, and the terror radius music has picked up in volume. I'm taking about the faint far away terror radius noises that are very low in volume.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382240#Comment_3382240
2 things.
1st, Self healing is in fact more efficient than altruistic healing, by miles away. Self healing at base, takes 16 seconds of total survivor time. Altruistic healing takes at least 32 seconds (2 survivors spending 16 seconds) plus the time it takes to find them. So they are definitely different. I suspect that what they'll do is nerf self-healing alot but either not nerf or only slightly nerf altruistic healing.
2nd, just because nobody complained about it regularly doesn't mean it isn't a problem. It is obvious that the devs are trying to discourage this massive "gen defense" meta from killers. They have basically killed the last good gen defense perks. The only reliable good one left, is basically deadlock, and even that one is mostly to counter gen rushing. They want to make it such that kills no longer feel like they have to bring all that gen defense, and instead buff their basekit pressure. And the most interesting way to do that, is to nerf healing. That way, kills are more encouraged to focus multiple different survivors to spread pressure. They won't be able to massively defend gens while tunneling someone anymore with pain res + DMS + deadlock. They now will be forced to spread pressure in order to do so.
However, you can't just nerf all the gen defense and expect killers to "pressure multiple survivors" if there isn't actually a reward for doing that. The reality is, they are trying to make spreading pressure actually worth it for a killer. The only real "problem" here is that the S tier killers like nurse blight and spirit are gonna get buffed from this and be stronger. But what difference does that make? They already are insanely powerful against average survivors.
Why not, buff basekit killer pressure spreading, and then NERF the problematic killers? Bring the top tier kills more in line with the rest of the killers, then buff killers as a whole. Similar to their philosophy around SWF and solo queue, but just a bit opposite. I.E. Buff solo queue survivors in a way that gives them access to some of the same information that SWF have, then we can nerf survivors as a whole and....oh wait, they are literally doing that.
BHVR is buffing basekit killer pressure spreading, by nerfing all healing speeds, regardless if they are self or altruistic.
If certain killers become problematic because of these changes, then BHVR can address that separately.
and your "we can nerf survivors as a whole" statement requires for all healing sources to be nerfed, because SWFs can more easily coordinate altruistic healing with their voice comms.
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382289#Comment_3382289
If people are healing each other, they're both grouped up, and also not doing gens. There's no reason to make altruistic healing take longer, other than to buff camping.
I don't know why you're quoting BHVR's reasoning as if they don't consistently make the dumbest decisions on Earth.
There's no reason to give basekit medkit self healing a separate duration than basekit altruistic healing, considering this is how the game has worked for a while, and I haven't seen complaints about it before the healing nerf announcements. It's clearly not a problem, and people are just using it as an excuse to get the altruistic healing speed nerfs reverted.
And I'm quoting BHVR because that is their intent with the healing speed nerfs, and their intent only works if all healing is nerfed. Otherwise, the games that have zero self healing would have zero healing nerfs for the survivor.