Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395483#Comment_3395483
Some of my fellow killer mains won’t be happy until the perk is completely unusable or better yet ceases to exist, it doesn’t matter whether it’s the most controversial perk nor that you personally super hate it, because a good subsection of this community don’t care about balance and/or don’t know what they’re talking about (which sometimes includes me).
The only reason people weren’t getting activations with the previous PTB iteration was because they were unlucky or lazy, which applies to a bunch of perks on both sides that have a cap on potential uses. I, the person who chose We’re Gonna Live Forever for their profile icon, would probably have little trouble getting Dead Hard activations and could potentially have it for multiple chases before you finally hook me, something the latest iteration makes impossible to do.
As for its pick rate, it already dropped by 50% after the Dead Hard for distance removal, dropping from around 3/4 survivors to around 1/3 and even the current iteration will drop uses now it has a 0-2 cap on attempts for the entire trial.
You said yourself that the original PTB version was still usable, and that is the version I want to go live.
@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395552#Comment_3395552
Bear in mind that balance is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. Fun is the goal of game balance. And it is quite possible for a mechanic to be extremely balanced and still not fun to play against. Example, pre-rework Legion. Were they balanced? Yeah, Survivors could escape them no problem. Were they fun? Hell, no.
That being said, I think people are seriously overestimating the new DH, yeah. So many of the things that actually made it so impactful are gone. There's no DH in the first chase, which could previously be devastating to a Killer's momentum. In fact, none of the Survivors will be able to DH on their first chase. And swinging into a DH previously put you in a no-win situation. If you don't drop chase, there's a good chance you're in for a long chase that you really can't afford to take. But if you drop chase, they'll be able to DH again later (But now DH only works once per hook state).
I don't really see it staying relevant for serious players. Comp players often opted for Sprint Burst as-is, and the comp meta is one where people mostly just say "Screw it" and don't bother trying to mindgame DH. The opportunity cost is too high when other Exhaustion perks are way more consistent, and way more readily available.
DH in any chase could be devastating to a killer's momentum. New DH just means that everyone should continue to hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked, to prevent the DH, so killers can see zero DHs.
The idea of a chase meta failed. Killers should still camp hooked survivors, because there is a giant urgent encouragement to be there when the survivor is unhooked, because it's the only time most killers can place a survivor in deep wounds so they can't DH. And before anyone asks, yes I hate DH so much that I will hang out next to a hook, and hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked. I don't care if survivors think it's unfun. If BHVR wants to keep DH in a meta, and if survivors want to continue bringing this awful perk, then this game can be Camping Simulator 2023. This is how I currently play, and it's how the game wants me to continue to play.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395533#Comment_3395533
I’ve already addressed this
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395491#Comment_3395491
Instead we have people complaining it still has value and as such, despite being the only Exhaustion perk with a cap on its uses and which is now 1/3 of the cap offered by its previous iteration, it needs more nerfs ITO until no one would ever dare use it, not even as a meme and no one will ever again attempt Adept David King because Dead Hard’s penalities need to be made so great as to make the Adept achievement impossible to do :D
You didn't really address it. Considering how much complaining people have done with this patch, do you really think people would just silently sit back if they thought DH got nerfed twice in the same PTB? Do you think DH got nerfed twice this patch, but it's such a sneaky double nerf that only you figured it out, and everyone else is just oblivious to the double nerf?
Yes, we have people complaining it still has value. It could have been massively nerfed like the original PTB version, but now we get a watered down nerf that's not anywhere near as good of a nerf. The original PTB version was still usable as a situational perk for people that were dedicated to making unhooks (like you claimed to be), so people like you could still use it. The big difference is it would have been a situational perk and not a "everyone gets 2 free activations" perk.
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@LollyGurl said:
The only way the previous iteration was problematic (from my perspective) is if someone was farming charges, denying others the chance to earn them, yet even then, they couldn’t farm charges from their own unhookings.
And here’s the thing, despite winning ‘the most used survivor perk’ several years running, more recent stats show it’s only equipped by 1/3 survivors, down from its 3/4 popularity of years past and so the probability of multiple Dead Hard users competing for charges isn’t that high, meanwhile SWFs can always plan around it.
Now, this doesn’t stop randoms unintentionally denying the Dead Hard user charges, but this is the same problem plenty of other unhooking and also totem related perks have and so with the previous iteration’s potential for upwards of 6 charges, I didn’t see the possibility of not getting max charges as making it weaker than the current iteration that requires that you’re not abandoned on hook.
If the new DH really were worse than the original PTB version, then these forums would have been flooded with complaints. And that would include survivors demanding the new DH change be reverted, if they really thought the original PTB version were better.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395244#Comment_3395244
No, its usability went from upwards of once every 40 seconds (less with Vigil) provided they mend, to its uses requiring you to be hooked and then (self) unhooked, giving it 0-2 uses.
That means that the dev’s consider it ‘balanced’ to have a perk that’s not guaranteed to work in the first place, due to mind games, timing and lag, then it can be denied by some killer perks and add-ons or them just tunnelling you off hook and at most you get it as a consolation prize for being hooked provided you get off said hook.
No, its usability went from "survivors can easily get 0 activations", to "survivors get 2 free activations". When the other person said "I can't coast through a chase because DH requires something new to work", they were referring to the fact the original PTB version required survivors to actually do something new (unhook survivors) to work.
We should not be comparing current DH to the new DH. We should be comparing the original PTB DH (from a week ago) to new DH, so everyone can realize it got a huge un-nerf.
Do you know what it's like to super hate a perk for a really long time, and seeing the original PTB notes... and seeing a massively nerfed DH. And thinking "It's finally happened! We can finally get rid of this obnoxious perk!".... And then a week later all of that is ripped away, when the perk gets un-nerfed so much that it's almost like this is the bare minimum nerf BHVR could think of that might somewhat reduce its pick rate. It's almost like instead of wanting to really nerf Dead Hard, BHVR wants to just push it as lightly as possible, to see if killers make it "a hot topic" again.
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@LollyGurl said:
It’s hilarious that the vibe of many of your replies is that you don’t believe the average survivor (or at least you as a survivor) really cares to unhook others and yet the latest iteration of Dead Hard is wholly dependent on the user being unhooked to get their ‘free’ charges :D
And even if you plan on self unhooking through something like Deliverance or Slippery Meat, it’s only going to give you 1 ‘free’ charge at best, not the hypothetical potential for 6 (or more) the previous 2 iterations allowed.
Most survivors wouldn't care about a hypothetical 6 or more potential. With the original PTB version, they would quickly notice that some of their games ended up with 0 activations, and would drop the perk.
Also, we know the new DH isn't really worse than the original PTB version, because these forums aren't flooded with complaints that DH got "double nerfed in one PTB". And considering that survivors went from "the PTB dead hard is awful" to "thanks BHVR for listening to feedback", we are very sure the new DH is a huge un-nerf compared to the original PTB version.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395348#Comment_3395348
However it is still an objective nerf (and if you just hit someone as soon as they're unhooked they still don't have their DH), and will help immensely in either shifting the focus away from DH or helping to secure earlier downs and thus being able to build pressure quicker.
Not having to go through 3 health states for the first chase on everyone will be very welcome (to me, anyway), because that means they're either going to have to eat through their resources quicker or let me start building hook momentum quicker (or move to another exhaustion perk entirely, which is still a win)
It won't help immensely in removing DH from the meta, like the original PTB version would have. It just feels so very awful to have high hopes for a week, just for it to get ripped away because BHVR decided to give DH a huge un-nerf. Why can't this perk just die?
I still have to potentially deal with it every single match, because BHVR refused to give it a massive nerf like it deserved. They even had a massive nerf idea, but they ruined it after one week.
Meanwhile, the killer gen regression perks are still massively nerfed, and I have to remove them all from my perk loadouts.... but DH gets to stay on my perk loadouts because it's still just as obnoxious as it used to be, it's just that we would only get 2 activations instead of the 3 we currently get. None of the issues people complained about DH got fixed. I saw zero people say "wow, it's really the first chase the matter most, and I super wish that could get fixed". People made all sorts of nerf suggestions, and absolutely zero of them got implemented.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395290#Comment_3395290
DH “nerf” just made it mid- and endgame perk, not antitunnel.
Instead of an early, mid, and endgame perk, therefore making it an objective nerf (and Sprint Burst is better)
New DH is an objective nerf from current DH, but it's still a huge un-nerf from the original PTB version we had a week ago.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/371451/just-to-be-clear-on-cob-overcharge
Healing/injuries are a basekit mechanic, killer perk's equivalent is survivor's perks. CoH and DH are butchered (rightfully so), as CoB and OC are heavily nerfed. I wouldn't even say the killer perks are butchered, because the unique facets of them still stand (Intel for CoB, Skillcheck for OC, albeit at 14% instead of 15%), unlike CoH which lost self-healing, and DH which has a hard cap of 2 uses per match (unless I misunderstood the proposed change).
The problem with DH is the original PTB version was a massive nerf that turned DH into a situational perk where survivors might easily get 0 activations the entire match…… and then BHVR gave DH a huge un-nerf, where survivors get 2 activations for free, and now the perk is very usable again.
DH deserves a nerf with the same intensity as the original PTB version. Giving the perk a huge un-nerf shouldn’t have happened, and if BHVR really did need to change the effect a bit, then should give the perk an additional nerf so it’s as bad as the original PTB version.
Because right now it feels like we got a bait and switch, where the original PTB version gave people hope that the perk was finally massively nerfed, and then it got switched out for a huge un-nerf.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394885#Comment_3394885
You could make a clip of me shouting, "######### YOU GAME I PRESSED E" and makr that the failed DH sound.
Or they could give the killer an indicator of which survivors have an active dead hard ready, so killers can know which survivors didn't dead hard correctly. This would also let killers know which survivors they need to waste extra time "baiting the DH", which solves a major annoyance of the perk.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394338#Comment_3394338
The new pain res is not awful by any means 100% regression across all 4 uses of the perk would only be exceeded by 7 pain res hooks before the change. Strength wise, I think It's probably about the same because that strength is more front loaded to the early game.
Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression and early game is when you are weakest as killer and slowdown is relatively more valuable. That's 5% more regression than you're getting at 3 hooks with the old pain res.
Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision.
And because it's tied to scourge hooks, it's not even necessarily an anti-tunneling perk. If I'm not in range of a scourge hook, and I hook a survivor on a regular hook, then it's totally fine if I tunnel that survivor, because I still haven't hooked them on a scourge hook yet. In order for this to actually be an anti-tunneling perk, the scourge hook requirement need to get dropped.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394814#Comment_3394814
6 for current live version. Your statement.
If there is anywhere on these forums where I said live DBD is usually getting 6 activations, please link me the quote so I can correct the statement.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394917#Comment_3394917
As I said in my own thread on the topic, they’re not free if you’re giving up a hook state for them, they’re a consolation prize.
Again, this revision ensures a survivor won’t have Dead Hard until you’ve hooked them and then only once each post-hooking chase, they can’t run off and recover from Exhaustion or unhook others to earn more charges, it’s 2 uses maximum and it’ll have no meaningful interaction with Blood Rush, unlike other Exhaustion Perks (except Overcome).
it’s a free consolation prize that requires zero effort from the survivors, and ensures that most survivors will get 2 activations.
And I don’t care if original PTB DH could potentially have more than 2 activations. It’s still a situational perk that is much less desirable for most players, and most players wouldn’t be getting more than 2 activations from it….. and many survivors would be getting 0 activations from it.
Also, if new DH really were a nerf compared to original PTB DH, then these forums would be flooded with complaints that dead hard was nerfed twice in the same PTB.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394748#Comment_3394748
Good to know, thanks for telling me. When did they change that? Because when they introduced it they definitely stated that MMR played a role.
I started noticing that MMR doesn't play a role, when the survivor HUD happened. Because I've had 10 second killer queues non stop 24/7 since that happened, my survivor queues can easily take over a minute, but I'm sometimes seeing 100% survivor BP incentives.
Whatever MMR I'm in has a huge lack of killers, and the BP incentives should be always on the killer side, because that is role that needs the most help in, for my MMR.
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@Crowman said:
You know what also misses the point. It's being called an "anti-tunnel" perk, but it's by far more effective if the killer doesn't tunnel the survivor straight off unhook.
Yeah. I don't understand how new DH is "anti-tunnel", when it encourages killers to hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked, to prevent them from using DH. With the original PTB DH, there wasn't an extra urgent reason to tunnel someone off the hook, because the person being unhooked wouldn't be getting a DH activation.
And the killers that are dedicated to tunneling people off the hook would be doing this regardless of which version of DH is in live DBD, so the new DH doesn't help "anti-tunnel" there either.
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@LollyGurl said:
All you have to do is equip Empathy or Kindred, sometimes if you want to get value out of a perk, an info perk is the easiest solution.
Taking it further, a traditional DH (team) player could be trying to take hits to prevent others getting hooked, because their build is about avoiding being hooked themselves.
Regardless, unhooking people to get value out of perks is nothing new, you don’t equip We’ll Make It and then complain you didn’t get a boost to altruistic healing when you never went for the unhook.
And ultimately they’re not free activations if you’re losing a hook state for them, they’re a consolation prize.
1) Altruistic DH isn't common. A survivor usually needs to be in point blank range to bodyblock, at which point the killer would be in range to just tap M1 instead of lunge. And many of the higher tier killers with mid range attacks (e.g. Blight and Wesker) can usually just go around someone that is trying to bodyblock, unless that person is blocking a narrow doorway.
2) Unhooking people to get value isn't new, but notice that We'll Make it isn't meta either, because it is a situational perk. Original PTB DH absolutely would have had a much lower pick rate than new DH
And yes, they are still free activations, because they aren't earned, and happen just from playing the game. A survivor could just spend the game repairing generators, not bother with unhooking anyone, and still get activations. It's the amount of effort required that counts.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394892#Comment_3394892
If they’re desperate enough, then yes, I say this because I saw it happen all the time with D-Strike. I’ve always made it a habit not to tunnel and yet you always knew the ones who had it because they went out of their way go get hit by you again.
Some people just want to validate their choice to equip x perk, even if it means they’re effectively wasting it.
If people aren’t going for unhooks, then that’s their choice, but as my profile icon might suggest, I’d have no trouble earning DH through unhooks.
So by what basis do you judge that people not getting hooked pre-endgame is extremely rare?
How many times have you encountered stealthy line wolves who become the final survivor without getting a single hook state, how many times would they get to use this revision of Dead Hard?
What about those of us killers who snowball things late game, especially with the likes of NOED? So many times I’ve caught cocky survivors and gotten all three hook states in one.
D-Strike has a time limit, so it's much more likely for people to feel a need to force a D-Strike.
The main difference is that original PTB DH is a situational perk, where people need to actively earn activations, because they might get 0 activations. And yes, it could still be good for dedicated users, and they could still want to equip the original PTB DH..... but most people aren't dedicated into getting unhooks, and would likely to drop the perk.
And that's the main thing. Original PTB DH was a situational perk, and new DH is an "everyone gets free activations" perk.
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@LollyGurl said:
This second revision GUARANTEES that a survivor won’t have DH active on your first chase with them, that’s huge and something I don’t think’s been the case in the history of the perk’s existence?
Also under the previous revision a dedicated player could easily get enough safe unhooks for a respectable 3 uses, if not the full 6. Now their potential for DH uses is 1/3 of that at max, provided they’re unhooked twice, which is even less guaranteed than them safely unhooking others.
A dedicated player, in solo q, would likely need to waste a bunch of time hovering near injured survivors, and hovering near the survivor when they are hooked, to ensure that none of the other survivors get to the hook before they do. And if two survivors decide to be dedicated, then there will be even more wasted time not doing generators.
The more likely scenario is the average DH user, that will likely just be repairing generators while other survivors are chased, and might miss out on unhooks if they aren't near the hooked survivor. Regardless, a perk where someone actively needs to go out of their way to ensure activations (and still might end up with 0 activations), is much less appealing than a perk that gives free activations.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394780#Comment_3394780
I’d argue that the latest version is getting into D-Strike territory, where survivors start sabotaging themselves just to get value, that’s why I don’t think it’s an un-nerf.
It also risks the occasional uselessness of Deliverance if you don’t get hooked until you’re the last survivor and now a survivor’s guaranteed not to have it on your first chase, unlike the PTB’s initial revision of DH.
And for now it looks like it’ll remain an Exhaustion perk, which makes it even less appealing with a max of 2 charges from being hooked. I can easily see MoM being more enticing if DH goes live as is, at least then you only have to body block 3 hooks and you can pair MoM with Exhaustion perks.
Sabotaging themselves? You honestly think people are purposely going to run to the killer to get hooked, so they can get a DH activation? Really?
And the occasional uselessness, involving a survivor that is the last survivor, but has never been hooked, is extremely rare, compared to the number of survivors that would have gotten 0 activations from the original PTB DH, just because they never unhooked anyone.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394367#Comment_3394367
In your own words. Common activations goes from 6 to 2. That's not stronger than it was before. The PTB is for testing ideas before going live. The result is still a nerf from the current live version.
In my own words, the original PTB DH was a massive nerf that the game deserved. New DH is a huge un-nerf compared to the original PTB version.
And no, common activations was never 6. For the original PTB version the common activations would have been 0 or 1, especially in solo q where the survivors might be fighting each other to get unhooks.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394780#Comment_3394780
Just wait and see. The fact that you were not in MMR range where people use DH to help other people that are not in chase does not mean that everybody shares your experience. I am pretty sure there will be VERY considerable dip in usage rate. The perk lost huge amount of utility. It means other perks are now without question much more appealing choice.
I want the considerable dip the original PTB DH would have given. I wouldn’t need to “wait and see” if the original PTB DH went live.
We had a great solution for DH, and it was the original PTB version. That version lost a huge amount of utility too, and was much less appealing than the new DH.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393804#Comment_3393804
I don’t see how it’s going to be meta if they keep it an Exhaustion perk AND have a charge requirement that may never happen if you’re a better looper than the killer or get your 1st hook as the final survivor.
How meta is Decisive Strike these days?
I’d argue D-Strike will be stronger than Dead Hard if the latter goes live in this revised state.
The point is that Dead Hard’s Exhaustion aspect won’t interact with its charge requirement, being unhooked or self unhooking clears any Exhausted status and so keeping it an Exhaustion perk is purely to prevent its use alongside other Exhaustion perks and to interact with killer Exhaustion effects.
So why would anyone choose this twice nerfed Dead Hard over Mettle of Man or Off the Record or Styptic Agent?
Why not just use any other Exhaustion perk, none of which have charge requirements (beyond being healthy for Overcome) and can all activate every 40 seconds or less with (multiple) Vigils?
Having multiple activation requirements on a perk that isn’t even guaranteed to work in the first place isn’t balanced, nor will it stop those of my fellow killer mains who’ll keep complaining about Dead Hard as long as it exists in any form.
I was fine with the original PTB Dead Hard, which go easily give 0 activations of the perk the entire match. That was a massive nerf, that the perk deserves, since it's been the most complained about survivor perk for so long.
The huge un-nerf of DH is what I'm not fine with. Giving every DH user 2 free activations is a huge un-nerf, and DH should be reverted back to the original PTB version, or it needs to be nerfed more so it's at the same nerf-level as the original PTB DH.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394338#Comment_3394338
When did Dead Hard get un-nerfed, it dropped from once every 40 seconds (or less with Vigil), down to 0-6 uses from safe unhooks and then down to 0-2 uses depending on if the survivor gets off the hook and either mends or escapes without a Deep Wound?
Did I miss an addendum to the recent Developer Update or are you just trying to make the rest of us killer mains look bad by continuing to whine about Dead Hard until it’s removed from the game, regardless of how much it’s butchered?
Meanwhile Call of Brine is fine, it’s still a perfectly viable information perk, especially great for Nemmy mains like me with all those LNNs to make zombies camp gens and it’s still better than something like Surveillance for most builds.
Currently, people average about 3 DH per match, which is 1 per health state. It is so very rare I ever see a survivor use DH more than 3 times per match. If someone uses DH, you keep chasing them so they don't get their DH back.
The original PTB DH, where people could easily get 0 activations, is a massive nerf, and should be the version that goes live. I would be fine with that version. This new DH is a huge un-nerf compared to the original PTB DH, and shouldn't go live, because this game deserves a massive nerf at the same intensity as the original PTB DH.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394367#Comment_3394367
Yeah, I think you're just determined to be stubborn which, more power to you, I suppose.
The original PTB DH version where people can often get 0 activations is way less useful than the new DH that gets 2 guaranteed activations.
I would have been fine if the original PTB version went live, because it was a massive nerf. This new DH is not a massive nerf.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394335#Comment_3394335
That's not an unnerf.
That's, at best, a change.
The maximum limit of the perk is far less but it has guaranteed activations now.
The perk is still bad though. It got nerfed extremely hard.
No. It's a huge un-nerf. With the original PTB, it's extremely easy to get 0 or 1 activations, especially in solo Q. New DH is 2 guaranteed activations, which is a huge boost.
The maximum limit was unrealistic. People usually aren't getting 6 DH activations on live DBD. The average would be 3, which is 1 per hook state. So the original PTB is realistically usually 0 or 1, with a much lower chance of 2 or 3.... and new DH is guaranteed 2.
And if the original PTB version went live, survivors would quickly find out they can easily get stuck with 0 activations, and would drop the perk.
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@DBDVulture said:
We're cancelling the nerf to these perks by ~70% right?
The healing changes felt "gross" so you're leaving killers with some sort of generator defense - right?
Nobody is going to even consider using these perks if you nerf their effectiveness by 70% or more.
Correct. Dead Hard gets a huge un-nerf, and Pain res just gets a small un-nerf where it's still completely awful.
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@CaulDrohn said:
You should really read more carefully.
DH: No, you do NOT get two activations with an unhook. It was changed from having to safely rescue to being unhooked (by another or self). I mixed that up myself, bc. dev update was not 100% clear. Whatever, this change guarantees that the survs will have two successful DH tops, and ensure that they WON'T be able to use it until hooked once. Thats a significant nerf compared to live DH, and a readjustment compared to the ptb DH, but by no means a buff. If anything, changing it to unhook grants more predictability for the killer, since he can be sure not ro run into DH when chasing unhooked survivors.
COH: The most busted aspect of this perk was the ability to self heal. Thats still gone, you won't be able to self heal in the boon area anymore. You will need still need a teammate to heal you, but atleast they will heal you twice as fast. That buffed numbers are necessary to keep the perk somewhat viable, otherwise it would be totally useless. 50% faster altruistic heals are hardly worth it, considering you habe to boon a totem and need to group up with others (travel time) to make use out of it.
Both changes to DH and COH are way more than just "minor adjustments". The former got limited from unlimited use to 2 and does not help in initial chases anymore, the latter lost the core reason it was picked in the first place. Even calling the medkit nerfs "small", when medkit self heal was nerfed drastically (only one heal, with severe speed and efficiancy debuff). If thats all just "minor" nerfs for you, I would really like to know what sufficient nerfs were in your opiniion.
Killer regression destroyed: Imo thats a good thing, bc way to many killer players are too dependent on their stacked regression perks. Chasing, injuring, downing and hooking efficiently is the real slowdown. I play without any gen regression in 90% of my games. Sure there are games where the gens are flying, but honestly, if I face a group thats so obsessed with getting out of the game as fast as humanly possibly, I'll help them by opening the gate for them.
Buffed genrush: Resilience is not changed at all. Overzealous got a QoL change yeah, but that just makes the perk actually playable. And if you are really booning a hex, you waste way more time then you can ever save with overzealous.
New DH is a huge un-nerf, compared to original PTB DH.
In the original PTB version, people that equip dead hard might get 0 activations from it, if they didn't safe unhook anyone. In the newer version, every survivor that equips dead hard gets 2 activations for free.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393828#Comment_3393828
Eh, I would say it's a slight buff compared to the PTB version (it's still conditional, you don't get unlimited uses, which is going to turn a lot of people off of it), and still a heavy nerf compared to what it was. In fact, now that you can use it only after being unhooked, you'll get at most two uses per match (unless I'm misunderstanding something).
And it was already a shell of what it was a year ago.
Is it it a little frustrating that they just don't kill it like they have so many other perks? Absolutely. I'd be fine if they just deleted the damned thing because six+ years of being omnipresent is just enough already.
But in its current form, it's not even the strongest exhaustion perk. I still think Sprint Burst and Lithe (and probably BL) will overtake it in pick rate.
In the original PTB version, people that equip dead hard might get 0 activations from it, if they didn't safe unhook anyone. In the newer version, every survivor that equips dead hard gets 2 activations for free.
In fact, in the original PTB version, there were many people that got zero activations the entire match. Maybe the survivors always got hooked on the opposite side of the map, and someone else got the unhook before the DH user. Maybe it's a game where one of the survivors is trying so much to get unhooks, that the DH user doesn't get any unhooks. Maybe the DH user is injured, and doesn't feel comfortable trying to go for unhooks. There are many reasons why a survivor might not get a chance to unhook other survivors, especially in solo q.
The result is that many survivors on the original PTB might equip DH and get 0 activations, because they didn't earn any. And a perk that might get 0 activations has a very high chance of being dropped from the meta, after survivors realize they might get 0 activations per game.
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If a killer is expected to hook all 4 survivors before hooking any survivor twice, then the killer needs to reliably be able to find all 4 survivors, even if those survivors want to hide.
This means survivor hiding needs to be massively nerfed, at least for whichever survivors the killer is supposed to be chasing. And there are a lot of survivors that would be very against that.
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@m4x1m_000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394007#Comment_3394007
Okay, I get it and I will think about it. It's just that for now I have a feeling that for a killer it doesn't really change anything in terms of counterplay.
It changes counterplay because the original PTB version was such a huge nerf that I wouldn't need to deal with it every game, and I could just swing at survivors and not worry about it.
Now that DH got a huge un-nerf, I have to worry that it still might be in every game, and I still feel heavily encouraged to do things like hit a survivor immediately after they got unhooked, to prevent DH.
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@m4x1m_000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393948#Comment_3393948
You mean in the original PTB if unhooked surv died in 15 secs then the saver could not earn his DH? Well, you know, if this is a real case in your matches, you will not really worry about DH since chases against you are this fast. But if I understood you right then yeah it’s kinda buff and feels like free activation, but still compare it with life servers. We will have no DH in start-game and there are other more important problems with DH than amount of uses IMO.
I mean that in the original PTB, a survivor needs to actually do something to earn a DH activation, and they might not get any unhooks the entire game.
Maybe the survivors always got hooked on the opposite side of the map, and someone else got the unhook before the DH user. Maybe it's a game where one of the survivors is trying so much to get unhooks, that the DH user doesn't get any unhooks. Maybe the DH user is injured, and doesn't feel comfortable trying to go for unhooks. There are many reasons why a survivor might not get a chance to unhook other survivors, especially in solo q.
The result is that many survivors on the original PTB might equip DH and get 0 activations, because they didn't earn any. And a perk that might get 0 activations has a very high chance of being dropped from the meta, after survivors realize they might get 0 activations per game.
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@m4x1m_000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393805#Comment_3393805
Read patch notes again, it is still 1 activation per unhook.
Yes, 1 free activation after being unhooked the 1st time, and 1 free activation after being unhooked the 2nd time, for a a total of 2 activations for free.
Compare this to the original PTB version, where survivors could equip DH and gets 0 activations, because survivors might go the entire game without earning any activations.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Billy takes a lot of Skill. Way more than Killers like Nurse or Spirit. And this is probably one reason for his quite low pickrate - aside from being awful to play due to his jank animations and hitboxes you wont achieve results as good and as fast as e.g. Nurse.
For me, personally, all the map updates are the biggest reason to not use Billy.
The older maps were filled with vertical objects with 90 turns, which were very curving friendly. But the map updates like to add irregularly shaped loops, or extra objects with bad collision, or other things that just reduce the number of opportunities to curve.
Even if Billy was completely changed back to what he used to be, he still wouldn’t be fun on the new maps like he was on the old maps.
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@Volcz said:
I think some people underestimate how strong 25% is and how much value that brings in real-time to the match. I think it will still be very strong/popular.
I think some people underestimate how much value people get out of the current gen regression perks. And people forget that pre-nerfed pop used to regress 25%, and gave way more uses per match.
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@Negi said:
I was so excited for dead hard to die so I could feel free to use M1 killers like Sadako and not feel the pain of getting hit with a free chase extender. Sadly DH is no longer dying.
I was excited for dead hard to die, because I also had killers, like Trickster, that I completely dropped when the dead hard rework happened, and now I still won’t use them, because is still powerful enough that those lower tier killers will be miserable to play.
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@Negi said:
I'm gonna be honest. I was willing to accept the killer nerfs because Dead Hard was getting buried but now it's not and we've still lost our best perks and now I've lost motivation to come back and try the patch.
I'm glad they reverted the base healing but now SWF will be true menaces with CoH. So killers are the big losers of this patch, solo players are the small losers of this patch, and SWF wins again.
One of the worst parts of this patch is that even though we often get complaints that solo q is awful, and changes need to be made for the sake of solo q…….. that this community rallied together to shove the burden of the healing nerfs onto self healing, which affects solo q more than SWFs. So we just widened the gap between solo q and SWF even more, and people are ok with that.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393866#Comment_3393866
It's fair that Call of Brine and Overcharge are nerfed because they were only really strong in 3-gen scenarios, end of statement. Though, it is worth mentioning that CoB is still a decent perk, it's just an info perk instead of a regression perk now.
It wouldn't be fair for Eruption to get absolutely nerfed into the ground, so it's a good thing that hasn't happened.
I can't read people's minds, but I suspect a lot of survivors will drop Dead Hard since it's so much weaker now. If I'm wrong, fair enough, but the perk's still been made much weaker, so I won't complain.
And if you’re wrong, then killers still have to constantly deal with dead hard, and we’ve now gone through two meta shakeups that have failed to properly nerf the most complained about survivor perk.
The original PTB DH was a great nerf, and I would have been happy with it. New DH should have an additional penalty somewhere, so that it’s a massive nerf at the same level as the original PTB version.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393773#Comment_3393773
Wow its as if MMR is a factor or something.
It's more like the incentives don't care about queue times at all. If my killer queues are massively shorter than my survivor queues, then it would be beneficial for the game's queue times if I played killer, because my MMR has a huge lack of killers. This means my personal BP incentives should always say killer. Because when my BP incentives say 100% survivor, and I play survivor, I'm helping contribute to worse queue times for the game, because I'm picking the over saturated role for my MMR.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393839#Comment_3393839
It lowers the average and maximum uses to two, staggers both uses to guarantee they're hooked between them, and it guarantees neither of those uses are in that survivor's first chase.
Yes, this is technically stronger than the PTB version, but it's substantially weaker than live, which is the comparison that really matters.
How is it fair that Eruption, Call of Brine, and Overcharge get absolutely nerfed into the ground, where I'm removing all of them from my perk loadouts.... but it's ok that the most complained about survivor perk still gets to be a solid choice in perk loadouts?
This is the second meta shakeup, where people were hoping for a massive nerf that will remove the perk from the meta. And this meta shakeup was worse, because it gave us false hope for a week, just to un-nerf the perk by a huge amount.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393777#Comment_3393777
I genuinely don't understand this idea that new Dead Hard incentivises tunnelling so you "don't have to deal with it". Deal with what? A maximum two uses of Dead Hard, staggered between hook states? Those uses that, also, weren't changed in any way so all the current counters are still very much in place? That still inflict Exhaustion, so most chases are going to be a little easier because they don't have other Exhaustion perks?
It's such a wild take to me. It's like everyone's so blindly mad at Dead Hard they've forgotten what the perk actually does and that a single use of Dead Hard really isn't actually all that much of a problem. You only have to tunnel in response to Dead Hard if you're blindly and doggedly committed to never seeing it used ever, and that's just kind of a silly view to take. Straight up, this new change means you can basically stop trying to prevent Dead Hard at all, because they'll get a maximum of two dropped chases from it- and those two dropped chases require being hooked twice to achieve them.
As for coordinated SWFs and new Circle of Healing, we'll have to see. Like I said, it's not as though that perk is the only way they could get stupid fast heal times, so at least now they have to be grouped up in order to do it- that is, no matter what way you slice it, better than before. If it's too much, fair enough, CoH will have to get yet another nerf.
Its extremely rare that I see a survivor use dead hard more than 3 times per match, in current DBD. The new DH basically just reduces the average number of activations from 3 to 2.
Compare this to the original PTB version, where survivors could get 0 activations per match if they didn’t safely unhook someone. That was such a bigger nerf than the current version, which automatically gives 2 activations per match.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
Anyone still mad about this update is hella biased one way or the other. This is about as even handed an update as you could hope for, even if you don't agree with all of it.
As for DH, I thought people were on something when they said the 6.1.0 was a buff, but to say this is a buff? That's just lunacy. The old DH for distance version was by far the strongest version, it was op as hell. Now it's just tedious, and mostly because it's tired, not powerful.
I won't be sad to see it go (and make no mistake, this is about getting it out of the meta, not "balancing" it. And that's fine), but it's not super strong any more.
From the killer side, one aspect of the gen kick meta nerf that I haven't seen discussed much is that it will also kick Nowhere to Hide in its metaphorical balls. It's been pretty prevalent since Knight dropped, but it's use was tied heavily to Overcharge/CoB.
New DH is a huge buff compared to the PTB version.
So killers were able to be excited for one week, because the PTB version of dead hard was a massive nerf that felt really impactful, but then dead hard got a huge un-nerf, and the new dead hard is a small nerf in comparison to what happened to Eruption, Call of Brine, and Overcharge.
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@LTGhost said:
The change to activate dead hard after you are unhooked makes the perk even worse. This means you can only use dead hard twice in one game. Also, this encourages even more tunneling. It encourages the killer to hit the unhooked survivor and put them in the deep wound state, meaning that they can no longer use dead hard b/c dead hard does not activate in the deep wound, and then the killer would just tunnel/down the unhooked survivor b/c they know they have no chance of having dead hard. Having dead hard resolve around something like hooking/unhooking is not a good change. The killer will always be more inclined to tunnel the unhooked survivor after getting rid of their endurance, and this dead hard change just makes it even more rewarding for the killer to tunnel.
New dead hard is massively better than the original PTB version.
In the original PTB version, people that equip dead hard might get 0 activations from it, if they didn't safe unhook anyone. In the newer version, every survivor that equips dead hard gets 2 activations for free.
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@DyingWish92 said:
Complained about for months? Try years at this point. But it's a survivor meta perk so it stays untouched or gets tiny nerfs.
The original PTB dead hard was a massive nerf, and could have actually lowered the pick rate enough that I wouldn't have to worry about it every game. If BHVR felt the original PTB version encouraged tunneling, then they should have changed the effect so that it's still a massive nerf. Instead, they un-nerfed it by a huge amount.
The reasoning for the un-nerf didn't make sense either. Killers could always just hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked, to prevent them from using dead hard, so the original PTB version didn't really encourage tunneling more than the current dead hard.
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The incentives have been broken for a long time. I’ve had 10 second killer queues, non stop 24/7 since the survivor HUD happened, and my survivor queues can easily take over a minute…. but my incentives sometimes say 100% survivor.
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Billy’s skill is mostly just muscle memory, which is mechanically skillful, but not really very mentally skillful.
It like saying the dead hard takes skill, even though that is often just mechanical skill (reaction time), and not really mental skill either.
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@CatnipLove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392477#Comment_3392477
It's not meant to be a fair statement. They use inflammatory language and omit information so they can justify making a post to complain.
The problem is that in the original PTB, dead hard was massively nerfed, and then on the one week update, dead hard got a huge un-nerf.
The original PTB dead hard would have finally given the perk the massive nerf it deserved…. but because of the huge un-nerf, it’s good enough again that I’m still potentially dealing with it every single game.
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It’s worse than grim embrace, because it has the extra RNG of scourge hooks.
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@Krazzik said:
DH is still a fair bit weaker after the patch and CoH is significantly weaker after the patch, so not sure why you're complaining.
DH is “a fair bit weaker”, but the killer perks are massively nerfed into the ground to the point where I need to remove them all from my perk loadouts.
Also, the original PTB version of dead hard was a good enough nerf, but it just got a massive un-nerf, and that’s a problem too, because seeing a decently nerfed DH gave people hope that it might drop from the meta.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392266#Comment_3392266
I don't really see "I got unhooked" as me earning it. However, at least it's limited to two times per survivor. Still, killers will have the same issue - being discouraged from freely attacking a survivor. It's a bit silly killers should be afraid of taking a swing at a survivor.
The actual problem is that new dead hard encourages people to tunnel a survivor off the hook, more than the PTB version, because the PTB version didn’t heavily encourage a killer to immediately hit a survivor after being unhooked to counterplay dead hard. And in the PTB version, since the unhooker didn’t get DH until after the safe unhook event, the killer could just hook trade with the unhooker, and not deal with dead hard that chase.
So basically BHVR made a huge un-nerf to dead hard, even though it was the most complained about survivor perk for months.
Dead Hard should be limited to once per match, like DS, so it can feel like it’s a nerf comparable to what BHVR did to the killer perks this patch.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393355#Comment_3393355
Yeah.
The fact people actually think DH got better is delusional.
Two uses max per trial. Exhausts you. Can't use it first chase. Depends on the Killers ping. Still deactivates if you whiff.
Had someone tell me earlier that it's actually better than old DH prior to its rework.
When the activation condition required a safe unhook, that meant that a survivor could equip dead hard, but never get a chance to activate it, because they didn’t safe unhook someone. But with the new dead hard, every survivor that equips dead hard gets two activations for free.
Requiring a safe unhook is much more restrictive. What if a survivor gets knocked down on the other side of the map? What if a different survivor gets to the hooked survivor before you do? What if you’re injured and the killer is camping? Survivors aren’t guaranteed to be able to safe unhook, and therefore wouldn’t be guaranteed any dead hard activations.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
When will the patch be released?
Also, somewhat disappointed that Dead Hard will still be a meta perk.
It's mega awful that dead hard survived two meta shakeups, where so many people were hoping dead hard would get nerfed into uselessness. It's the most complained about survivor perk by a lot, and has been for a while. But now we still have to worry about every single survivor having the perk, because the un-nerf they just did was massive.
I'd seriously be fine if every healing nerf was reverted, if that meant dead hard would get deleted from the game.