Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404356#Comment_3404356
I can’t speak much on solo Que, but I ran some SWF and the games were free wins. Killers just couldn’t keep up with the gen pressure.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404388#Comment_3404388
Pretty much. I obviously love blight so it’s no different for me. I probably won’t touch many killers save maybe oni, wesker, and spirit.
Even on blight, I had to turn up the heat a bit to keep up with some of the better teams. Gens were absolutely crazy.
I might start using Wesker more, just for the sake of variety.
Nurse and Spirit just feel awful to play, because of Nurse’s super loud repetitive chase music that causes survivors to be become instantly silent when they break lines of sight, and because of Spirit’s new 100% crystal clear directional audio. And every map update makes Huntress less fun to play, since the new maps and update keep adding more line of sight breakers, where she can’t easily just throw a hatchet over the objects.
So I can play Blight and Wesker, and too bad so sad for the rest of the roster?
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@Anna24 said:
What do you think about the new update which removed boon healing , dead hard etc. ?
Dead hard wasn’t removed. I’m still seeing it.
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The double standard is that killers are expected to make poor game decisions so the game is more fun for survivors…….. but survivors aren’t expected to make poor game decisions so the game is more fun for killers.
Any feedback you might get from survivors might be things like “don’t spam the crouch button at the exit gates”, or other things that don’t actually affect the survivor’s chances of escaping.
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@HugTechLover said:
It’s still early to have a concrete opinion but so far my thoughts are
• QOL changes to BW are fantastic.
• Gen speeds seem considerably faster. I’m able to keep up nicely on blight, but m1 killers are going to get murdered by any semi decent team.
• Healing changes seem nonexistent, I noticed nothing different.
• it’s been nice getting to openly swing in 1st chases without having to worry about DH, but I still saw a decent amount of the perk yesterday. I predict the same thing will happen from last nerf; the usage will fall for a bit but will return.
I tried some of the lower tier killers yesterday, and it was not fun trying to play them, since all the good regression perks were nerfed.
So I guess I’ll just play Blight more often this set? That’s the real solution, right? I should stop playing the lower tier characters, and just play lots of Blight? That’s what survivors want?
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402354#Comment_3402354
do you use any chase based killers? wraith and legion should be ok in theory and oni was massively buffed with these changes
Why would I play of those killers, when I could just play Blight instead? He has a real chase power, and doesn't need to waste a bunch of time earning his power like Oni does.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402438#Comment_3402438
Sorry. But no. This MMR needed to settle for everyone which needed time which would explain the different experience after release and then after some time.
Or do you have a source that says they actually relaxed the MMR later on?
also, the statistics don’t really show us the reality at all. We don’t see variance nor standard deviation. Nurse literally has the lowest killrate in high MMR which even the devs stated shows that we can’t rely just on these numbers alone.
i agree that many people want easy games - though that’s not me and not everyone that complains about current Matchmaking, and this kind of generalization isn’t needed.
@Peanits said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/B9SDLMUAF5CG/mm-test-results.png
Over the past few weeks, we’ve run a series of short matchmaking tests based on various feedback we’ve received. These ranged from making the matchmaker faster, stricter, various combinations in between, and yes, even disabling Skill Based Matchmaking and reverting to the old Grade Based Matchmaking.
We want to start by thanking everyone who took the time to share their thoughts about each of the tests. While we’re able to track things like queue times behind the scenes, your feedback is invaluable when it comes to finding extraordinary cases and for getting an idea of how these changes feel rather than how they perform. Thank you!
We’ve kept the details of the tests a secret until now as to not influence feedback, but since the tests are over, we’re ready to dive in and share some details on what was tested. But first, we need to explain what each of the changes mean.
Fair warning, this is going to be a long and very technical one!
Variables
We have a bunch of settings which we can tweak behind the scenes. Here’s a quick rundown on the ones we changed during the tests.
The first is maximum range. When you search for a match, we try to find other players who are close to your rating (within 50 points). If we aren’t able to do so, the search gradually expands until we’re able to find you a match. By default, this is set to 500 points away from your own rating. This is so you’re guaranteed to get a match after waiting a while, though it may not be the fairest.
The second is expansion time. This is how long it takes to reach the maximum range. By default, this is set to 5 minutes.
Then we have a few switches we can toggle. These are:
Bidirectional matchmaking: Normally once one player has been waiting long enough, other players can be pulled into their match (as long as they’re within the maximum range). Bidirectional matchmaking requires both players to have expanded enough to encompass each other for them to be pulled into the same match. By default, this is off.
If this sounds confusing, don’t worry, it’s complicated. Here’s a little chart to clear things up:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6C9DPL3ANQZK/bidirectional.png
Each player’s actual rating is shown in red, and their current matchmaking search is shown in blue.
- In Example 1, Player A’s search has expanded to cover Player B, but Player B has not yet expanded to cover Player A, so they won’t be matched together.
- In Example 2, both players have expanded enough to cover each other, so they can now be matched together.
- When we use the default (unidirectional) matchmaking, both examples would be eligible for a match.
Grade visibility: This one’s nice and simple. We can switch off grades in the post-match screen since they typically aren’t used for matchmaking. This doesn’t actually have an effect, but we were curious to see how people feel about it and how it affects their perception of matchmaking.
Grade Based Matchmaking: We can switch off Skill Based Matchmaking entirely and instead use Grades for matchmaking. For folks who joined us recently, this is roughly how the matchmaking worked before the introduction of Skill Based Matchmaking.
The Tests
And now, the part you’ve been waiting for: Just what exactly was tested each day? We’ll also share our expectations and how they matched up to the results. Quick disclaimer: We’ll be talking a lot about averages in this section. If this doesn’t line up with your experiences, don’t worry, we’re aware that things can vary depending on a bunch of different factors (time, region, role, rating, etc.).
For the first three tests, we did not expect much of an improvement. These three were meant to test individual variables and see the effect they have on matchmaking. Afterwards, we started to mix these variables to see the impact they would have together.
March 28
Test:
- Expansion time decreased to 1 minute (from 5 minutes)
Expectation: Faster matches, particularly for players in off-peak times, though the quality of matches would be lower.
Results: As expected, wait times dropped significantly across the board (faster than any other day), especially for the players on the extreme ends of the rating spectrum. The quality of matches on average did not change a whole lot, though some players may have noticed a larger gap in skill levels.
Kill rates noticeably changed on the ends of the spectrum, with high rated Killers becoming more deadly and low rated Killers having a harder time. This is likely due to players on the ends of the spectrum being paired with more players from the middle.
March 29
Test:
- Maximum range decreased to 250 (from 500)
Expectation: Slower matches, especially for players with extraordinarily high/low ratings and/or in off-peak hours, but higher quality matches in general.
Results: Like we predicted, wait times did increase for players on either end of the spectrum, although players in the middle did not have a noticeable impact on matchmaking times (on average). Overall, this test only slightly reduced the average rating difference compared to a non-test day, though curiously, players on the far ends of the spectrum may have seen an increase.
March 30
Test:
- Enable bidirectional matchmaking
Expectation: Longer queue times for players in off-peak hours & players at the extreme end of the rating spectrum, but fairer matches for players that get matched quickly.
Results: Longer queue times were an understatement; some players were experiencing exceptionally long queue times (15 minutes+). This is because there weren’t enough players to match them against in their region & skill level at the time they were playing, and players who were ‘close enough’ to their skill level would not get matched with them unless they also were unable to find a match.
This is longer than we’d ever like anyone to wait. To play it safe, we cut this test short and altered it a few hours in. A hard cap was added to switch back to the default unidirectional matchmaking after someone had been waiting for 5 minutes. This cap was used for all future tests where bidirectional matchmaking was used.
Of all the tests, this one reduced the average rating difference the most, cutting it by roughly a third. However, the long queue times make this a fairly unappealing solution.
March 31
Test:
- Maximum range decreased to 250 (from 500), expansion time decreased to 1 minute (from 5 minutes)
Expectation: Players who already get quick matches may notice a slight drop in quality, but players on the far ends may find matches quicker. On the other hand, the lowered range may limit the pool of players to match with on the far ends of the rating spectrum.
Results: Queue times for Survivors were faster across the board, but Killer queue times had no noticeable difference. In terms of kill rates, on the mid-high end of skill groups, kill rates dropped slightly (closer to 50%) while the lower groups remained mostly the same. This test also earned the second biggest reduction in average rating difference of all the tests.
April 4
Test:
- Maximum range decreased to 350 (from 500), expansion time decreased to 1 minute (from 5 minutes), enable bidirectional matchmaking
Expectation: Matchmaking may be slower for some players, but the quality of matches should be improved.
Results: Survivor queue times were faster across the board, while Killer queue times remained mostly the same (with the exception on the far low end of skill ratings). Kill rates, meanwhile, climbed slightly at the highest skill levels and remained mostly unchanged at the lower end. The average rating difference didn’t decrease noticeably with this test.
April 7
Test:
- Maximum range decreased to 350 (from 500), expansion time decreased to 1 minute (from 5 minutes), enable bidirectional matchmaking, grades hidden
Expectation: More or less the same results as the previous test, as all the variables are the same.
Results: We were curious to see what kind of impact hiding grades would have on the feedback we received, since grades are no longer used for matchmaking (though they can give the impression that they’re a measure of skill). For this test, we ran all the same variables, only we hid grades as well. This way we could compare feedback to the previous test to see how grades affected the sentiment.
To our surprise, the overall feedback appeared slightly more positive with grades hidden. When directly comparing opinions from folks who left feedback on both the April 4th & 7th tests, we discovered that the feedback was usually the same if not better when grades were hidden. We opted to leave grades hidden over the weekend.
April 11 - 12
Test:
- Switch to Grade Based Matchmaking
- (April 12th only: Show grades)
These tests were added later as we started to see more speculation about the tests. Occasionally someone would predict that one of the things we were testing was the old matchmaking system, and we figured hey, why not give it a shot?
Expectation: Matches would have a lot more variety in player skill, very similar to the old Rank Based Matchmaking. We also expected to see the average grade difference to fall dramatically.
Result: As we suspected, reports of one-sided matches started flooding in. We can also confirm this on our end; the average kill rates for this day saw the most dramatic change yet, with the highest skill levels rocketing up to roughly 80% (>3 kills per match on average) and plummeting to around 20% (<1 kill per match on average) on the lower end of the spectrum. The average grade difference, however, decreased significantly, as expected.
Now to be clear, this is not quite the same as the old Rank Based Matchmaking. For starters, grades reset all the way back to Bronze I while ranks only reset one colour tier, and it’s not possible to lose grades anymore. We wanted to give it a fair shot, so we specifically set this test as close to the grade reset as possible to give people the largest window to settle into their grades. (This is also why the last day was cut short: We didn’t want to leave the test running over the grade reset since that would have everyone matches against anyone.)
Furthermore, a 1-2 day test is not the same as leaving it on for an extended period of time. Given more time (and the ability to lose grades), we expect that people facing far too difficult opponents would eventually have their grades drop to a place where they’re more comfortable, while folks who are consistently overperforming would climb.
Ultimately, though, this highlights a big issue with using grades (or ranks) for matchmaking: A very experienced player who just hasn’t played a lot lately can very easily be paired against players that are new to the game. As we’ve learned in the past, grades/ranks are a stronger indicator of playtime than skill.
This test was very polarizing, but interestingly, we started to see more positive feedback when we started showing grades again. This indicates that there’s definitely a strong connection between seeing grades in the post match screen and the sentiment about a match.
Learnings
We’ve learned that the strictness of the matchmaking and the quality of the matches is without a doubt linked. Looser conditions had a notable effect on kill rates, opponent variety, and also the feedback we received. While the larger variety in opponents was appreciated by some, there was an opposite reaction from others who were now struggling in tougher matches. Simply put, on the other side of any casual match- where one player can win without trying- is a person who’s having a bad time despite trying their best.
On the other hand, the inverse is also true. Stricter matchmaking brought the kill rates closer to the middle, but many found the matches to be too competitive to enjoy. While folks in the lower groups of skill rating would have fewer unfair matches, the higher end of skill groups ended up in tough matches filled with meta perks & Killers.
These tests overall highlighted two distinct groups:
- High skill players who want more variety in their matches
- Lower-mid skill players who, understandably, don’t want to get destroyed by high skill players
The biggest takeaway here is that going too far either way is never a one-size-fits-all solution. What we’d often notice is how some players loved a particular test because they were seeing more variety in their opponents, but at the same time, those same tests were also frustrating to a lot of people who were suddenly getting matched with people way better than them. Neither person is wrong in this scenario: Each of them just expects something different from matchmaking.
Lastly, we have discovered that hiding grades on the post-match screen definitely influences the feedback we receive. We suspect this is for two reasons: 1) Long time players who may have missed the matchmaking changes could still thinking that grades are used for matchmaking. And 2) Some players still feel like grades are an indicator of skill in spite of not being used for matchmaking. Most importantly, however, we found that there was a lot of support for hiding grades, so this is something we’ll be considering as a permanent change going forward.
Next Steps
With all these learnings in mind, we have a solution that will improve matchmaking for both groups of players. We will be making the following changes shortly:
- Reducing the maximum range
- Reducing the expansion time proportionally (so it’s no faster or slower than before)
- Lowering the effective cap for skill ratings
- Removing grades from the post-match screen for the foreseeable future
Why these changes?
As mentioned in the learnings, we found two dominant groups:
- High skill players who want more variety
- Lower-mid skill players who want even matches
In order to make both groups happy, we first need to isolate them from each other. To do this, we’ll reduce the maximum expansion range. This will help keep players of similar skill levels together, reducing the number of one-sided matches. The majority of players fall in the middle of the spectrum, so there is still plenty of people to match with. Additionally, since it seems like the expansion is happening at a good rate, we’ll be adjusting the expansion time proportionally.
Next, we need to consider how this will affect the high skill group. Reducing the range would mean less variety. Fortunately, we have another variable to tweak that solves this issue perfectly. For the purposes of matchmaking, we have a “cap” for skill ratings. Although your rating can continue to climb beyond this cap, you’ll be treated as if you’re at the cap for the purposes of matchmaking. This is in place to prevent the best players out there from climbing to a point where there’s simply nobody to match with.
By lowering this cap, we’re able to expand the pool of players in high skill matches, leading to more variety in the opponents you face. One match may be very close and competitive, but the next may be a little more laid back. This will also ensure that queue times don’t grow longer at higher skill levels.
Lastly, we’ll be removing grades from the post match screen. When we originally hid grades during the test, we saw a lot of people asking for this to be made permanent. Additionally, long time players who may have missed the news could often think that grades were still used for matchmaking, leading them to feel like the match was less fair than it actually was. These, combined with the generally more positive feedback during the tests while they were disabled, were enough of a reason for us to disable them for the foreseeable future.
For the future, we’re still hard at work implementing various improvements to the matchmaking system. These include making Survivor ratings team based rather than personal (so dying heroically to save everyone else isn’t as punishing) and improvements to backfilling lobbies to prevent players from outside of the acceptable range from being pulled in. These improvements will take longer to implement, but rest assured, work is already underway on them. You can find a full list of changes we’re looking into in our January Developer Update.
Once again, we want to thank everyone who took the time to leave feedback throughout the tests. Understanding not just how the matchmaker performs, but also how it feels is incredibly important for us to make improvements. As always, we’ll be keeping a close eye on the matchmaking system moving forward and making small adjustments as necessary. Please keep the feedback coming!
The Dead by Daylight team
Direct quote from the above link.... "By lowering this cap, we’re able to expand the pool of players in high skill matches, leading to more variety in the opponents you face. One match may be very close and competitive, but the next may be a little more laid back. This will also ensure that queue times don’t grow longer at higher skill levels. "
And the statistics are fine. They show that the popular DBD tier lists are super garbage for the majority of the players. It really doesn't matter if the top (less than 1%) can overperform with Nurse, because the majority of the players will never reach that level, and the majority of the players shouldn't be seeing the top (less than 1%) Nurses often enough to be a problem.
When people talk about tier lists, they should be caring about whatever the tier list is for the MMR range the matchmaking system often places them in. Having 1 tier list, that is based off of 6000+ hour competitive players, doesn't help the majority of the playerbase, that will never even reach the MMR soft cap.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402143#Comment_3402143
Problem is that MMR still doesn’t even equal skill, we need some adjustments (not only Kill-/escape based but also number of hooks, chase times, chase wins/losses), and then it would already be enough if there was some indication in the endgame tally screen if your opponents were in your mmr range or higher or lower - without specific numbers.
MMR works. It seems like everyone forgot that when MMR first went live, it heavily favored matchmaking accuracy, which caused certain streamers to no longer be able to win streak, and some of them even just quit the game for a while because if they can’t constantly stomp over their opponents, then they don’t have any “good content” for streaming.
And the only reason people can get high win streaks again is because they relaxed MMR to favor queue times more than they used too. There were even multiple MMR tests where they tried various ratios of “good matchmaking” and “good queue times”, and what we have today is a result of those tests, because this is what the community wanted.
People don’t really want better matchmaking, since that just means “every game is sweaty”. What they really want is easier games, which is the opposite of what an MMR system tries to do.
We also know MMR works, because the stats BHVR released showed the killers being very close together for kill rates (certainly closer than most fighting games).
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402143#Comment_3402143
Problem is that MMR still doesn’t even equal skill, we need some adjustments (not only Kill-/escape based but also number of hooks, chase times, chase wins/losses), and then it would already be enough if there was some indication in the endgame tally screen if your opponents were in your mmr range or higher or lower - without specific numbers.
MMR works. It seems like everyone forgot that when MMR first went live, it heavily favored matchmaking accuracy, which caused certain streamers to no longer be able to win streak, and some of them even just quit the game for a while because if they can’t constantly stomp over their opponents, then they don’t have any “good content” for streaming.
And the only reason people can get high win streaks again is because they relaxed MMR to favor queue times more than they used too. There were even multiple MMR tests where they tried various ratios of “good matchmaking” and “good queue times”, and what we have today is a result of those tests, because this is what the community wanted.
People don’t really want better matchmaking, since that just means “every game is sweaty”. What they really want is easier games, which is the opposite of what an MMR system tries to do.
We also know MMR works, because the stats BHVR released showed the killers being very close together for kill rates (certainly closer than most fighting games).
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402143#Comment_3402143
You do realize that some of these streamers are live for HOURS at a time right? All to just get 1 good game to be able to post on their YT
Its like Apex content creators, they just post their highlights, not the dozens of games they failed beforehand.
The keyword here is SOME. As in, there are some streamers, that get constantly matched with weak opponents so often, that it’s a bit questionable if the problem is matchmaking, or if the problem is the streamer purposely lowering their MMR, for “better content”.
And we’re still not sure if “community SWFs” also break matchmaking, because when streamers SWF with 3 community members that might be low MMR, does that drop the overall SWF MMR enough for the streamer to matched with easy games where they can loop the killer for 3 generators or more?
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Many of the weaker killers will be even more miserable to play, because all the good gen regression perks got heavily nerfed, and there weren’t any compensation buffs for other slowdown nerfs.
And dead hard will be just as frustrating and unfun to go against, because the DH change didn’t fix any of the issues people complained about.
And there will be many games that get to completely bypass all the healing nerfs, because many games are 100% altruistic healing.
And BHVR completely failed to give us a chase oriented meta, which was supposed to be the entire point of this meta shakeup. Injuries still won’t feel like they matter, especially against SWFs with voice comms.
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We should be able to see MMR values, so we can know if streamers are purposely lowering their MMR off stream….
Some killer streamers get so many survivors that run into walls, or don’t know how to loop. And some survivor streamers get a lot of killers that are really bad at the game, which is how they get their YouTube montages of them making fun of the killers.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399658#Comment_3399658
with all due respect they are not game balance decisions if you play enough...
4 survivors staying slugged for four minutes without any way to speed up the bleedout timer when a killer refuses to hook is game balance?
ok so when you cant hook a survivor because there are no hooks anywhere close that is a balance decision like in midwich or downstairs in the game(even more fun when they bring boil over)?
to add to that point how is it fair game balance when a survivor can get unhooked in endgame and the killer can do nothing to down the survivor if the hook is too close to the exit gate? even worse when that is the only hook in the area due to bad rng?
survivors not doing objectives (and even worse in larger maps) walking around when there are only 2 survivors left is game balance?
how is the shrine of secrets only refreshing once a week good game balance(keeping new players from getting perks they still have to grind shards so that isnt even the issue)
bad map designs...heck even the devs make fun of how bad cowshed is but it hasn't been changed at all? knights new realm, garden of joy, springwood, etc. i mean good for survivors but woe is the killer on most of these maps... honestly the only balanced maps are wreckers yard and the mcmillan maps
i would love to hear your thoughts on how these are not quality of life changes? i notice i put a lot of killer related qol changes but that is because survivor is actually in a good spot right now...heck us solo queue survivors even get more information with visual terror radius and the hud
This game uses a different definition of 'quality of life' than every other game I've ever seen.
Colour blind mode, and visual terror radius are Accessibility changes, and not Quality of life changes. Accessibility changes are allowed to change gameplay (gameplay = a player's chances of winning games), and they do so to help equalize the player experience for people that might have impairments or disabilities.
And the survivor HUD isn't Quality of life either, because it can change gameplay for solo q survivors, and it's designed to help equalize the player experience between solo q and SWF..... which has absolutely nothing to do with Quality of life either.
Quality of life is supposed to be things that help player experience, that have a 0% chance of ever affecting a player's chances of winning games. These would be things like bloodweb improvements, or other things that don't actually affect gameplay at all.
A 4 minute slug timer does affect gameplay, so it's not a Quality of life issue. You should be saying Player Experience, or Player Satisfaction, because what you really want are changes that make your game experiences less frustrating.
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@Cassiopeiae said:
I don't think it's an easy thing to fix but if they've said so it'll happen. How long that takes is anyone's guess.
I think Blight needs a full code rework in order to fix his collision issues (just like how Nurse needed a full code rework to fix her blinking glitches).
BHVR tried for months to fix Blight's short object collision bugs, but failed. They created a secondary collision detection mechanic to fix the short object collision bug, but this never worked correctly, and it created the M2 bug. And hug tech happened when they fixed the M2 bug. So to summarize, for years Blight had a bugged short object collision, a bugged secondary collision detection, and a bugged hug tech. There is clearly major issues with Blight's code, that aren't easily fixable.
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Someone identifying as a survivor main or killer main, means absolutely nothing on these forums. Some of the most survivor sided people on these forums identify as killer mains, so we should just flat out stop calling people survivor mains or killer mains.
And instead, we should use the words survivor sided or killer sided, because that is what we actually care about.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400202#Comment_3400202
Ok. Of course I agree to that one. And even if I do play plague quite some (not a lot lot), it never happened to me. So I never knew something like this could happen.
Actually it would be best to have a clip about it and report it in bug section of this forum. I absolutely agree that outright bugs like that should be fixed
Unfortunately my video card isn’t the best, and I sometimes take a performance hit if I record matches, so I usually only record if I know something will happen.
And the Plague issue is very rare, and even when it happens it seems like it’s only bugged out against one survivor in those games. The only reason why I’ve seen it recently is because survivors have been spamming medkits ever since the PTB patch notes were released, so I’ve been on a Plague-a-thon.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400202#Comment_3400202
Ok. Of course I agree to that one. And even if I do play plague quite some (not a lot lot), it never happened to me. So I never knew something like this could happen.
Actually it would be best to have a clip about it and report it in bug section of this forum. I absolutely agree that outright bugs like that should be fixed
Unfortunately my video card isn’t the best, and I take a performance hit if I record matches, so I usually only record if I know something will happen.
And the Plague issue is very rare, and even when it happens it seems like it’s only bugged out against one survivor in those games. The only reason why I’ve seen it recently is because survivors have been spamming medkits ever since the PTB patch notes were released, so I’ve been on a Plague-a-thon.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399899#Comment_3399899
I agree with PIPs.
Don't agree with single health state - the thing is, if you don't cleanse, her only power is basically "you are injured whole match". So the game has 2 equal things broken - killer has no power being true and pure M1 killer only, but you have just 1 health state instead of 2 (with exception to her 1 fountain or 2-3 with addons). IDK, but that sounds fair to me. Like don't get me wrong - she is very strong. But it's not like you autoloose against her without any possible counter.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399663#Comment_3399663
That's what I said. In my screen, I see that I jumped the window and went way far away from it. But even if this is the case, killer is still able to hit/down me which is pure and utmost bullshit... There's no going around this - there will always be someone that gets screwed over by bad ping.
The only fair thing that can be done is to actually split it between both sides - so each side gets screwed over a little, but none of the sides gets screwed over a lot (also if 1 side gets screwed over a lot and the other side just benefits - you get the problem of people intentionally VPN-ing into distant servers just to have bad ping=easy games)
Ok let’s try this again. I’m not talking about a single hit…. I’m talking about fully inhaling an entire action bar of puke, and puking the entire action bar, where my screen shows the puke hitting the survivor, and I’m hearing the survivor make “getting puked on” noises. So we’re talking about over 1 full second of Plague hitting a survivor, but the game not registering the hits.
When the puke bugs, she could even shake her camera from side to side, so the puke sweeps such a large area that it’s just not possible for the survivor to dodge the puke….. but the game still sometimes doesn’t register the puke hits.
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@Mandy said:
Will just say a lot of those are not quality of life changes but changes that affect gameplay themselves - things like hooks not permanently breaking for example, these are things that are in the game for balance, not quality of life.
A quality of life change are things like colour blind mode, the visual terror radius etc.
BHVR uses a different definition of Quality Of Life, than every other company I’ve ever seen.
BHVR said the survivor HUD is quality of life, but that isn’t quality of life, because it does affect gameplay, and is giving players information that can help them win the game. If the goal of the survivor HUD is to help equalize the game experiences between solo q and SWFs, that has nothing to do with quality of life, as quality of life has nothing to do with equalizing game experiences.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399563#Comment_3399563
Live Dead Hard has a great many more activations than just one per hook state, because it activates as soon as you're injured. You're conflating activations with uses, which is another reason you're under the impression this isn't a gigantic nerf.
Survivors currently get activations of Dead Hard for free on live. The difference is that now they only get two uses of Dead Hard as well. Or, to be even more accurate, two attempted uses per match.
To the overall point of the PTB DH possibly giving zero uses - what you're missing there is that this new version of the perk has more restrictions than the PTB version, not fewer. You may get two attempts without having to get an unhook, but you have zero control over when those activations are and cannot use them in your first chase or without being hooked between them. The previous version could easily keep someone off the hook multiple times if they're proactive about getting unhooks, and that is stronger than the current version.
We know that new DH is largely considered an un-nerf, because so many survivors went from "I can't believe BHVR is trying to kill this game" to "thank you BHVR for listening to our feedback". BHVR was so heavy with the survivor un-nerfs that they have completely failed to make injuries feel like they matter, even though that was supposed to be the entire point of this meta shakeup.
If the survivor community largely felt new DH was weaker than original PTB DH, then these forums would have been flooded with survivor complaints.
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@Gandor said:
Plague is in a good spot. No changes needed.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399570#Comment_3399570
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399426#Comment_3399426
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399384#Comment_3399384
No. She is fine the way she is. It's good one of the abilities actually behaves as if it has server validation. This way inevitable "benefits" of bad ping are evenly split between killer and survivor (usually as survivor you can get hit 3 steps away from window, because vpn + worse reaction time for survivor). With plague u don't get unfair hit, but still get unfair reaction time to make up for it.
If my screen shows me do an entire full puke on a survivor, and the survivor is making “getting puked on noises”, then this goes well beyond normal validation rules.
This is well beyond the “it looks like I clipped a survivor for 0.25 seconds of corrupted puke, but they didn’t get hit”, this is entire pukes we’re talking about.
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@Canas said:
Plague's greatest issue is the godawful hitbox for her puke projectiles, I swear they keep hitting survivors since I can hear them scream but they don't get infected at all. And it's even worse if you get this type of issue while trying to use her corrupt purge.
Yes! I swear this happens to me, where I’m clearly hitting a survivor with a bunch of puke, the survivor is making the “I’m getting puked on” noises, but they aren’t getting infected.
I’m not even sure if it’s some sort of latency issue, or if Plague’s puke infection code has bugs, and sometimes just doesn’t work.
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@Canas said:
Plague's greatest issue is the godawful hitbox for her puke projectiles, I swear they keep hitting survivors since I can hear them scream but they don't get infected at all. And it's even worse if you get this type of issue while trying to use her corrupt purge.
Yes! I swear this happens to me, where I’m clearly hitting a survivor with a bunch of puke, the survivor is making the “I’m getting puked on” noises, but they aren’t getting infected.
I’m not even sure if it’s some sort of latency issue, or if Plague’s puke infection code has bugs, and sometimes just doesn’t work.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398958#Comment_3398958
Yeah but that was my point: Survivors will still experience matches where they get no uses, so they will drop the perk (I think simply the announcement of a nerf makes some people drop a perk, even if the perk is still good, but that is a different topic).
So the question is: Is your szenario of not getting an unhook more common than the szenarios I mentioned? And honestly I don't know. In the last two solo survivor matches I played I would have gotten the same amount of uses out of dead hard with both versions so I'm not sure that it makes a big difference, but two rounds is obviously a very small sample.
Live DH has an average of 1 activation per hook state, so scenarios like “survivor never got unhooked” would have lowered live DH’s activations too.
And it takes way more time and effort to reliably get an unhook before every chase (especially in solo q), than it is to passively get activations for free. And it’s even more time and effort if 2 solo q survivors bring original PTB DH and are fighting each other to get unhooks.
And if all 4 survivors bring original PTB DH, then it would be a total mess for everyone, because there would be 8 activations that could possibly be available, which averages to 2 activations per survivors, at which point the original PTB’s best scenario is what new DH can easily give for free. And original PTB DH would have been a nightmare for 4 survivors to coordinate, and survivors could very easily miss out on activations.
And original PTB DH would also be worse then new DH if the killer is proxy camping, but doesn’t hit the survivor immediately after being unhooked, because the original PTB DH wouldn’t have given a free activation for being unhooked.
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All visual directional audio cues should be released at the same time. So if Spirit’s phasing has a visual directional audio…. then survivor breathing, grunts of pain, and footsteps should also have visual directional audio.
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@ProudRinMain said:
I don’t blame them. She’s lost A LOT of what made her unique and is now just a generic semi-fast killer ( in her power without speed add-ons and still unjustifiably slow outside her power after the major nerfs to her power ) and her long power cooldown that doesn’t justify being there anymore considering her power isn’t as strong as it used to be.
i do miss old Spirit dearly….sigh 😪
She lost her entire character theme. She was supposed to be able to turn invisible, to be sneaky and make survivors guess where she is.
And even when people complain about MDR, why would we want to use MDR, that makes her go faster, which we could just pick Blight instead and not need to deal with invisible survivors?
Blight is probably one of the biggest issues for Spirit’s pick rate. Because of Spirit’s directional audio, Spirit has to just brute force hits with speed, which is what Blight does…. and Blight can see survivors, scratchmarks, and pools of blood.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397583#Comment_3397583
You can still do a lot of mindgames with her, it's actually very effective now since most survivor don't expect it.
Of course you can do the classic fake going to one side of the loop, but you can also phase and then immediately unphase and kick a pallet/vault a window to catch the survivor off guard and buy yourself some time, standing still works if you use your phase aggressively during the match, you can pretend to use your phase at a loop but then go attack and catch a survivor off guard behind you, there's a lot you can still do now, you just need to use your brain instead of getting free undetectable stealth to do some skill-less bullshit sneak attack.
So we’re supposed to pretend to use Spirit’s power, and hope the survivors don’t notice the lack of directional audio?
And you want people to “waste time phasing, just so we can immediate unphase, so if the survivor decides to hold W, they can really be far away, and Spirit can be much worse off”?
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@Gandor said:
This map is broken on hooks. You can have literally 2 hooks in 1 small room (not even far corners of them) - making the distance 100% break the promised minimum hook distance (I have seen hooks to be in aproximately 5m apart from each other).
I presume your problem comes from survivor bringing boil over so you overlooked a hook that was close to you, or alternatively you got like extremely bad RNG
Hook spawning sometimes looks like it’s based on true distance between hooks, instead of travel distance between hooks.
Meaning there might be 0 hooks within “carrying a survivor” range, but there might be a hook in the room directly above the killer and DBD doesn’t care that it would take 30 seconds to travel up a floor and into that room.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394335#Comment_3394335
There are still multiple szenarios in which someone will not be able to use their dead hard at all in a match: never being hooked, being the last one the Killer hooks, not being unhooked for example because of a camping LF, if the Killer tunnels right after the unhook (hits them in deep wound and chasing them to hook them again).
Also being camped in second state means you can only use it once.
None of that is relevant. If the original PTB version went live, survivors would realize they can easily get stuck with zero activations, and would drop the perk.
It’s the same thing with devour hope. Yes there are scenarios where the killer gets 5 stacks and can mori survivors, but killers are more likely to remember all the games where they didn’t get a chance to mori any survivors.
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I’m always surprised the rifts have so few cosmetics. This is such a good opportunity to get people to pour money into the game, but it involves such a small percent of the killers and survivors, that it often has zero things for the characters I play.
And sometimes it does involve the characters I play, but the cosmetics are awful (like medieval huntress) or they are so holiday themed that I might wear them once a year (like bright green St Patrick cosmetics).
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398297#Comment_3398297
So you'd rather have a harder time in harder matches and an easier time in easy matches than having some amelioration between the two?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398386#Comment_3398386
It was most certainly not enough, since Botany Knowledge offered the same value, just without any range restrictions, set-up time or counterplay. It'd be incredibly inefficient, putting it more in line with Autodidact, No Mither and Potential Energy.
I’d rather the number of people using DH be lowered as much as possible, and the original PTB DH would have done this much better than the new DH.
And the average number of DH activations per match would be lower with the original PTB DH, especially if multiple people brought the perk to the same game.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394367#Comment_3394367
No. It's a huge un-nerf. With the original PTB, it's extremely easy to get 0 or 1 activations, especially in solo Q. New DH is 2 guaranteed activations, which is a huge boost.You're basically explaining why the change was necessary. SWFs could run a single dedicated unhooker with DH (which they already do with Deliverance). While 6 DH would be unlikely, more than 2 would not.
Because DH now has "tunnel protection", BHVR should treat it like an anti-tunnel perk.....How much do you want to nerf Off the Record to make that potentially viable?
So you're saying they'll be a SWF with only 1 person using DH in the entire match? Sounds like an improvement over new DH, where all 4 people can use the perk because it gives everyone 2 free activations, which means I could easily see it 8 times in a match.
@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398297#Comment_3398297
So it off the record and u gotta time it? That would be trash but I'm all for it just to finally kill the perk. sick of hearing about it
Original PTB DH would have buried the perk, so yes, new DH should be nerfed enough to also be buried.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397816#Comment_3397816
Or you can look at the overall performance and realise that this isn't really that much of a buff, especially since, as I mentioned before, you now have clear intel on who has it and who doesn't, on top of the extra nerf it got at PTB's launch.
A situational perk, where survivors can easily end up with 0 activations the entire game (especially in solo q), is way less useful than a perk that gives people 2 free activations. Survivors will remember the games where they got 0 activations, and they won't like it.
And I wouldn't need clear intel with the original PTB version, because the DH pick rate would have dropped so much that I wouldn't care. Also, survivors with sprint burst or lithe will usually show their exhaustion perk before the killer gets their 2nd attack to connect, so killers usually get intel anyway on who might have DH anyway.
Because DH now has "tunnel protection", BHVR should treat it like an anti-tunnel perk..... DH should deactivate if the survivor does a conspicuous action. That would make the perk as nerfed as the original PTB version, where it's a situational perk, just like the original PTB version was.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394367#Comment_3394367
From the killer side of things, it's a nerf.
Whereas before, it would be impossible to track who has DH up unless you were camping, now you know who has DH available and who does not. Additionally, one DH could get up to 6 activations, now it's 2, max.
This change literally just trims the excesses down for killers while boosting the floor for survivors.
The minimum potential of 0 activations (which is very easy to get stuck with) is much more important than the maximum potential of 6 activations (which is very hard to do).
Original PTB DH is like many killer hexes. Yeah they have strong maximum potential, but they also have the minimum potential to be a waste of a perk slot in some games. If all we cared about was maximum potential, then Devour Hope and Pentimento would be S tier perks.
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The problem is this community uses tier lists that are based on 6000+ hour competitive players, and isn’t representative of the majority of the playerbase.
For most people, the top tier is Blight and Wesker. They both have really good pick rates, and their skill floors are reasonable. And for many players, Legion is a stronger pick for them than Nurse or Spirit.
This is why these forums have problems where some people scream “why does BHVR keep making weak killers”, and BHVR responds with “you need to be aware of how killers perform across multiple skill levels”.
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@[Deleted User] said:
MDR+Cherry Blossom aside, she's in a really good spot. Still a top tier killer if the player is good at actually using her power. I think the rework ran off many Spirit players who were completely reliant on "mindgames".
My primary complaint is that her entire character design was "turn invisible so you can mindgame", then the directional audio took away the point of her character.
She can still win, but it's not fun playing a character, where the survivors get 100% crystal clear directional audio that goes through walls and is louder than chase music.... but Spirit is still stuck trying to hear survivors through overtuned sound occlusion.
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@Gandor said:
Killer slowdown being nerfed will be more then compensated by much quicker chases, because a lot of survivors will be unable to be healthy from now on (or it will take longer time). Or if they decide to heal, it will take much longer.
So all that killer needs is stop kicking gens instead of going for a chases and their killrate will definitely go up (with exception to 3gen camping knights that never learned to chase)
The healing nerfs only affect some of the games. Many DBD games are 100% altruistic healing, and those games are unaffected by the healing speed nerfs. So survivors can heal those games exactly the same as they can today.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396776#Comment_3396776
So are you or are you not going to tunnel someone with Sprint Burst? Because it sounds like you're counting on them to make a mistake if they have OtR. Letting them go, and hoping that they'll come back to give you a free hit instead of hiding somewhere, healing up and then just doing gens where you'll never find them?
This whole thing was in response to BHVR telling us they had to change the PTB DH's effect, because killer's are more likely to tunnel survivors with 2 health states instead of 3 health states. And I said, if that's true, then killers would just tunnel any survivor that showed a different exhaustion perk, since it's extremely likely they will only have 2 health states.
And that still stands. It doesn't matter if there are rare occurrences where a sprint burst user might have a third health state, because the majority of them won't, so if a killer is trying to estimate the best person to tunnel, it's any survivor that shows a non DH exhaustion perk.
And if BHVR wants to change DH so it has tunnel protection, then it should be changed to be an anti tunnel perk. Make DH deactivate on a conspicuous action. This rewards killers for not tunneling, and BHVR should be rewarding killers for not tunneling.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396733#Comment_3396733
If you rarely run into Off the Record, it's because live Dead Hard can do what it does but better, so long as you know how to press E. But OtR works great with Sprint Burst, because it gives you a third health state while still giving you room for another Exhaustion perk.
So yeah, if you decide to tunnel someone after seeing they have Sprint Burst, you're just setting yourself up to get dunked on by anti-tunnel perks. So what's the point of adopting these unfun strategies when it's not even going to help you against decent Survivors?
Many survivors that use OTR want to use the endurance part of their perk, so if they aren't getting tunneled, then they'll start a chase with the killer, so they "don't waste their perk". So it doesn't matter if I tunnel, or if I don't tunnel, an OTR user, since many of them are going to start a chase with me anyway.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396642#Comment_3396642
And what are you going to do if it turns out that Survivor has Sprint Burst, but also has Off the Record?
Hard tunneling isn't unbeatable. Once you start running into Survivors with the perks, items and experience to counter it, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
I very rarely see someone have Off the record and an exhaustion perk at the same time, but if that happens, then I'll either tunnel them off the 2nd hook, or just do something else until Off the record times out (or I'll try to do something else, and the unhooked survivor will purposely try to start a chase, because they "don't want to waste" their perk). This is a rare enough occurrence that I'm not concerned with it.
And I never said hard tunneling was unbeatable. What I did say is that if survivors want to bring the most unfun survivor perk in the game, that is still not properly nerfed because it gives survivors 2 free activations, that it's fair game to match it with unfun camping and tunneling.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396152#Comment_3396152
That's the point...
If survivors can't heal themselves as quickly or easily, nor have a third health state from the get go, killers will have quicker access to best way to slow down the game: downing a survivor. And if you can do that more easily, you won't need to rely on regression perks as much, and therefore make do with the nerfed ones. Corrupt, Pop + Eruption, Sloppy + Jolt, Deadlock... hell, even Ruin + Plaything + Penti are all viable options. Or, maybe with this new patch, slowdown perks won't even be "necessary" anymore, but just another option for those who want them, with the end goal in mind of BHVR weaning killers off of their opiate "slowdown perk" addiction.
They're trying to adjust the game so that slowdown perks aren't considered needed anymore, but are still there for those who want them. Why don't you want that? And why are you complaining about a new meta that hasn't even had time to form yet?
The patch hasn't even been released and you're treating the nerfing of some quite unhealthy perks as a disaster without considering the "compensation" killers get in other areas...
Many games are 100% altruistic healing, which isn't nerfed at all, which means survivors will heal themselves as quickly and easily as they currently do. And SWFs can use their voice comms to easily coordinate altruistic healing.
And no, BHVR gave up on trying to make slowdown perks not needed anymore. They had a great idea for a chase oriented meta, but that can't work when SWFs can heal each other in less than 10 seconds, and it can't work when survivors have easy access to 3 health states.
Dead Hard is super unhealthy for the game. A perk giving someone a 3rd health state means that killer will be encouraged either to tunnel DH users off the hook, or to tunnel anyone that the killer sees use a different exhaustion perk, since those people are likely to only have 2 health states. And do we really want survivors to feel like they are specifically being tunneled for only having 2 health states?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395999#Comment_3395999
Yeah, the perk still has annoying elements to it, but at the end of the day, there's a LOT of things in the game that you could call annoying If we go by the logic of "Power level irrelevant, counterplay irrelevant, only annoyance is important", suddenly 90% of the perks in the game warrant a nerf. Power Struggle, Saboteur, Flashbang, Spirit Fury-Enduring, Pain Res, No Way Out, Adrenaline, Decisive Strike, Lightborn, Corrupt Intervention.
The new DH isn't just inactive on the first chase. It also doesn't work on the second, or the third, or the fourth if you aren't tunneling. Can't say the same for PTB Dead Hard.
The prevalence of Dead Hard is likely to plummet after this change. So congratulations, you're probably not gonna have to tunnel people off the hook anymore. You have what you wanted. Why can't you just take your W and move on? And I'd hate to see your face when you find out Off the Record exists.
No, the PTB version had an even bigger tunneling problem, because the unhooker would have three health states because they just earned DH, but the unhooked would only have two at the most.
Also, I wanted to mention that if BHVR thinks original PTB DH was a problem because people might tunnel someone for only having 2 health states..... that it's kind of admitting that a perk granting a 3rd health state is unhealthy for the game.
Imagine if I were the type of person to tunnel someone for only having 2 health states. That would mean I should just tunnel the 1st survivor I see, that uses an exhaustion perk that isn't DH, since it's extremely likely they would only have 2 health states the entire game. For example, if I see someone use sprint burst, I should tunnel them out of the game, because they likely aren't using DH, so they're likely to only have 2 health states. If I tried to hook survivors equally, I might eventually run into a DH user with a 3rd health state. Why should I put myself at that risk, when I've already found someone that's 99% likely to not have DH?
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396001#Comment_3396001
It's almost as if BHVR has realized that regression perks as a concept have been way too strong across the board, crowding out any other perk that doesn't slow the game down from ever being used, while making the mid/late game easier for killers and harder for survivors than they think it should be.
Meanwhile the DH nerf makes the early game easier for killers and harder for survivors, allowing killers to have an easier early game in exchange for a (slightly) harder mid/late game when taking the self heal nerfs into account.
Sounds good to me for both sides; more perk variety, less of a possibility of having 3 gens done before your first down, more encouragement to heal altruistically. I don't see the problem.
Or the early game will be worse, because the killer won't have any great regression perks to slow down the generators. The DH nerf didn't happen in a vacuum. The gen regression perks were better than all the other slowdown perks, and they all got nerfed, but none of the other slowdown perks got buffed, so now killers are stuck with worse slowdown than before.
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@LollyGurl said:
My dude, Call of Brine is staying on a lot of my builds, regardless of the fact it lost a ton of regression power and will be dropping from the meta, it’s still a good information perk IMO, better than Surveillance 90% of the time and just amazing on Nemesis because it makes zombies camp gens. Yet that hasn’t stopped tons of people on this forum claiming that it literally does nothing now, but they’re objectively wrong and so are you about Dead Hard.
Some people will continue to use Dead Hard, just as tons of people continue to use Self-Care and were allegedly responsible for the mass downvoting of DBD and its DLC on Steam following the release of this PTB because they didn’t wanna Self-Care for up to 80 seconds.
Some people just want to play with their favourite perks and if that turns out to be 10% of the playerbase with Dead Hard, you’re just gonna have to cope with it not being as dead as you demand it to be.
Regardless Dead Hard was nerfed and lost popularity after the removal of DH for distance, it dropped from around 3/4 to 1/3 usage, with part of that being a skill issue that deterred less skilled players from using it as an undo button and yes, obviously highly skilled players got just as much use out of the revision, that’s what highly skilled players do.
Meanwhile, you continue to insist PTB players were just equipping the previous version and then wasting it by going out of their way not to charge it and I don’t think you get how dumb that sounds?
No. I'm saying people equipped the perk in the PTB, realized it's possible to get 0 activations from it, and dropped the perk. And the people that did equip the perk very often weren't getting value form it, because I was checking everyone's build in the post game screens, to see how many people were using DH.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396072#Comment_3396072
Again, you are vastly overestimating the strength of the new Dead Hard. For any other Exhaustion perk, if you could only use it twice a game, and not even on the first chase, that'd kill the perk outright. It was at roughly the same strength as Sprint Burst from the perspective of most comp players, so what makes you think Dead Hard will be so different, especially when Off the Record exists?
Actual question.... what happens if the new DH is still meta? Will it just be "too bad so sad" for killers, and killers would need to wait another year for the 3rd meta shakeup? Does anyone think BHVR will monitor the DH pick rate, and step in if the pick rate is too high?
Current DH lasted a very long time as the #1 exhaustion perk, even though it was supposed to have been nerfed in the 1st meta shakeup. And BHVR didn't step in at all, and just waited for the 2nd meta shakeup.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395999#Comment_3395999
Yeah, the perk still has annoying elements to it, but at the end of the day, there's a LOT of things in the game that you could call annoying If we go by the logic of "Power level irrelevant, counterplay irrelevant, only annoyance is important", suddenly 90% of the perks in the game warrant a nerf. Power Struggle, Saboteur, Flashbang, Spirit Fury-Enduring, Pain Res, No Way Out, Adrenaline, Decisive Strike, Lightborn, Corrupt Intervention.
The new DH isn't just inactive on the first chase. It also doesn't work on the second, or the third, or the fourth if you aren't tunneling. Can't say the same for PTB Dead Hard.
The prevalence of Dead Hard is likely to plummet after this change. So congratulations, you're probably not gonna have to tunnel people off the hook anymore. You have what you wanted. Why can't you just take your W and move on? And I'd hate to see your face when you find out Off the Record exists.
No, the PTB version had an even bigger tunneling problem, because the unhooker would have three health states because they just earned DH, but the unhooked would only have two at the most.
The prevalence of Dead Hard would have plummeted more with the original PTB version. There is no winning here. I had to remove all my regression perks because they'll not worth using anymore, but I still might need to deal with DH every single game, where its effect is exactly the same as it used to be, but at -1 uses per game.
The new DH needs an additional nerf, so it' can be nerfed at the same intensity as the original PTB version. Otherwise we're just using "oh, people might tunnel" as an excuse to make a huge un-nerf to DH. Maybe prevent survivors from using DH within 5 yards or a vault or pallet. Maybe make it so if the killer doesn't hit the DH, the survivor is stuck in place for 1 second. Just do something so it's nerfed as badly as the original PTB version.
Like what, is the usage going to go down from maybe 30% to 20%, and I'm supposed to be happy with that? Eruption had a massive pick rate drop, and CoB and Overcharge and also likely to have a massive pick rate drop... but DH might just have a moderate pick rate drop, and I'm supposed to be fine with that, because "it's better than nothing"???
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395480#Comment_3395480
Shouldn't you be glad that when they nerfed this perk they still left it semi-useable, similarly to Eruption?
They usually nerf the strong perks into uselessness, like Ruin, but every once in a while they manage to actually balance a perk.
For what it's worth, for some perks the nerfs into oblivion were necessary, like CoB and Overcharge, since they had a very powerful effect that activated without any interaction with other players.
But I think this Dead Hard change is actually brilliant.
If you want to use DH, you either have to go without any exhaustion perk for your first chase, or you have to use another perk slot with a different exhaustion perk. (Brings back memories of when people used to run original DH and Balanced Landing in the same build a while ago.)
And as killer, your first chase with every survivor will nearly always require only 2 health states to down the survivor, ensuring that they won't be able to waste as much of your time at the beginning of the game, when the killer is at their weakest and the other survivors are slamming gens.
My prediction is that Dead Hard usage will drop for a little while then gradually rise, but not to the same level that it was before.
For what it's worth I play both sides, and give this nerf an A-. It could be better, but I'm not sure how. A very good perk balance!
No, I'm not glad at all, because I removed Eruption from all my perk loadouts because it's completely useless to me. Eruption's ability to regress or stall generators is trash compared to what it used to be. I also removed CoB and Overcharge from all my perk loadouts, because those are all trash compared to what they used to be too.
And I don't care if people can't use it on the 1st chase. I still potentially have to deal with 2 DHs per survivor that has the perk equipped, and since the DH's actual effect is exactly the same, it's just as unfun and awful as it currently is.
And it could be better if the original PTB version went live, where the person being unhooked doesn't get DH, so I don't feel an urgent need to hit them immediately after being unhooked.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395662#Comment_3395662
Dude, you are just obsessed with Dead Hard. I typed out an entire essay titled "A definitive Dead Hard rant" countering every common argument in favor of Dead Hard, one by one, in response to people saying it shouldn't be nerfed, and even I don't hate the perk this much.
It's unlikely that the perk will even see more than niche usage in its new iteration. Even if all four Survivors are running it, they can only activate it 8 times and that's it. Sprint Burst, on the other hand, can be activated 12 times minimum, and potentially an infinite number of times, with the only limitation being the Exhaustion timer.
Meanwhile, a single player could use the PTB DH up to six times, and unless you saw the unhook happen, you'd have no way to even know who has it.
Also, the first chase is by far the most important in the match. The Killer has no pressure, and can only chase one Survivor at a time while the others are all free to do gens. If you look at comp teams, a key element of their strategy is delaying the first down for as long as possible. And even after the first down, a good player would much rather have a Dead Hard on their first chase when everyone's still alive, instead of their last chase when one or more of their teammates may already be dead.
So yeah, not having an Exhaustion perk in the first chase (Or in any of the Survivors' first chases, for that matter) is actually a pretty huge deal.
If you feel you HAVE to camp after these changes, that's on you. If I can still win games without facecamping on the first down, on LIVE, I think you can get by without facecamping just to avoid a neutered Dead Hard. And it's not even a winning play; it's just a cheese strat that doesn't win against good Survivors, so you're going to be just as frustrated as before once you meet Survivors who know how to beat campers. Take some responsibility for your own actions.
Does everyone understand that the effect of DH is exactly the same, between the current DH and the new DH, and that the only thing that changed is the activation trigger? As far as I'm concerned, after a survivor has been placed on a hook, the new DH is exactly the same as the current DH, where a survivor will try to use it 1 time before the 2nd hook, and 1 time before the 3rd hook.
And it doesn't matter how important the first chase is, because both PTB DH versions didn't work on the 1st chase.
And it's not every survivor that needs to be camped. It's only the survivors where I didn't see their exhaustion perk before they got hooked. Because they might have DH, and I hate DH so much that I think it's 100% justified to hit them immediately after being unhooked.
And the original PTB version actually fixed the whole "tunneling after unhook" problem, because the person being unhooked isn't the person to get DH, so there's no urgent need to hit them immediately after being unhooked.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395747#Comment_3395747
Are we really gonna appeal to popularity, maybe I just have a different perspective because I’m not obsessed over the perk’s continued existence?
The previous iteration was basically the live version meets Deliverance, but with up to 6 times the potential for charges. Deliverance being a perk that still sees regular play despite being a once per trial gimmick that also isn’t guaranteed to work. I’d barely call it a nerf when people could earn a couple charges without losing a hook state of their own.
Yes, we are going to appeal to popularity! That's the entire point! If the popularity says that new DH is better than original PTB DH, then more people will use it! That's the whole entire point of this rant! That the original PTB DH would have lowered the DH pick much more than new DH!
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395662#Comment_3395662
You want the previous PTB iteration despite the fact it lets survivors earn Dead Hards for up to 6 chases, potentially starting from your very first chase, seemingly because of some misguided notion that survivors aren’t willing to earn uses for their perks and thus it’ll be picked less, something you’ve never shown any evidence for.
Meanwhile, camping makes it harder to earn Iridescent Shards and Rift Fragments, so if you feel you HAVE to camp that’s on you, but it’s not for me… just as you didn’t feel bothered to unhook others to earn Dead Hards under the previous iteration, which now means you’d be making it harder for others to gain their ‘free’ Dead Hards if you’re not getting them off the hook.
Heck, you admit it yourself that killers can just deny the newest PTB Dead Hard through tunneling and camping, so how is it un-nerfed again?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395691#Comment_3395691
Again, you keep saying its charges are free, they’re not, they’re a consolation prize for getting hooked and you still have to earn them by Kobe, using a separate self-unhook perk or convincing someone to unhook you.
You don’t start the trial with it as the current live version and just like the previous PTB iteration you primarily earn it through altruism, just not mechanically so.
Being unhooked is never guaranteed, you can go a whole trial with zero ‘free’ charges if you’re abandoned on hook or hooked as the final survivor, both issues unique to this version.
The charges are free because the survivor doesn't actively have to do anything to get them. It doesn't matter if you call it a "consolation prize" because it's still for free.
And the original PTB version also didn't have people start the trial with a DH.
And even though "being unhooked is never guaranteed", being able to unhook someone is also "never guaranteed". If unhooks aren't happening, both versions wouldn't have gotten charges.
And again, it doesn't matter if you personally think the original PTB version is more powerful. It's super clear the majority of people don't agree with you, because they aren't flooding these forums with complaints. The original PTB version isn't like a hidden "best kept secret" that only you see, and everyone else just doesn't see its hidden better-ness.
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@TOFFU said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392266#Comment_3392266
Who cares with 30 sec gens and voicechat.exe
I hope you prepare killer bots bec we are all leaving game
Hexes dead
Scourge hooks dead
Regress perks dead
Untill your surv earn it and uses 2 times my next match will be over allready with that op survs
I want to be clear that my issue isn’t the difference between live and new DH. My issue is how much of a huge un-nerf DH has between the original PTB version and the new version.
The original PTB version was a massive nerf I would have been done with. Survivors would have needed to earn activations, and DH still wouldn’t have been in the first chase.