ChuckingWong
ChuckingWong
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yea basekit bloodwarden on a free hit mechanic, sounds fair.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925695#Comment_3925695
I don't think so. The reason he was so close to Ghoul is because he got downed so early. He would have been half way around the car when Ghoul would have received his full movement speed again, it would have been a close call I am pretty sure.
As I said, in many cases survivors are now able to make it around the loop even if Kaneki vaults the pallet in enraged mode. But I guess it does depend on how big the pallet loop is.
Im sorry but its not a think or a guess this is just known.
Hes directly on top of the person, if the bug (instant hit) didnt happen it wouldnt matter here. Take out the instant hit and its a clear m1 down through and through theres no debate.
He was down from an m1. -
@CLHL said:
You don't need perks or toolboxes with the best addons. All you need to genrush is to split around at the beginning of the match so 3 non-adjacent generators are completed at the end of the first chase. If you don't have Pain Resonance or a killer with high mobility, that game is problably already over. Those saying that base regression is enough, I would like to see is this situations, turning their words into evidence.
If you don't have Pain Resonance or a killer with high mobility, that game is problably already over. Those saying that base regression is enough, I would like to see is this situations, turning their words into evidence.
K disproven.
Dont move the goal post now -
Framing that tunneling on killer is only reactionary to gen speed has already been disproven.
People do it at 5 gens all the time. Its not "due to gen speed" -
@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925640#Comment_3925640
Huh? I said "tunneling gens" without even thinking much about it. I have no idea which content creator you are talking about and I dont really care to know as I dont watch dbd content creators very often and have little loyalty to any of them, though there is one I absolutely despise and I can assure you, he absolutely earned my ire.
Its just a wierd thing to say because tunneling is a term used to describe what a killer does to a specific survivor to eliminate them from a match.
Its a way people attempt to equate the two things when they are nothing alike.
And then of course not answering what they expect survivors to even be doing.
Just an odd thing to say "tunneling" gens. They are just doing their objective as they dont have anything else to do.
Unlike killer, when they target and remove someone from gameplay as quickly as possible, aka tunneling.@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925572#Comment_3925572
Just chiming in here for a couple of notes.
Fully agree that they have announced nothing on these mechanics, so almost everything is speculative.
Imo, "anti slugging" should target exactly and only 2 main things: what I refer to as "excessive slugging" and "slugging for the 4k".
Slugging for the 4k is pretty self explanatory, and could also be targeted by reworking hatch (again).
Excessive slugging is generally slugging as a strategy (not using hooks at all, deliberately, and not simply because someone is lurking for a save, for example), or slugging to bleed out. Generally this is everyone slugged to bleed out, or possibly one person being humped on the ground for 4 minutes.
And while this is just my opinion and speculation, these are the kinds of questions they asked about in the surveys, so at minimum there is evidence the devs are thinking about these cases also. What that mechanic looks like, I have no idea (nor does anyone else).
Secondly, there is exactly and only one reason I ever see anyone use the phrase "tUnNeLiNg GeNs", and that's because it's a phrase from a content creator who generally complains incessantly about survivors, and people who watch this person just mindlessly repeat these ideas. Even and especially when they have no basis in reality.
All this phrase actually means, is the killer not pressuring survivors, and it's somehow simultaneously the survivors' fault. Period.
In reality, if the killer is afk, survivor gameplay is "do gens and leave", and it's on the killer to give the survivors something other than gens to focus on (this is pressure). That can be a lot of things: killers power, "interactions" (body blocks, saves), healing and recovery, hexes or other perk counterplay, but usually the primary one is chases and hooks (one in time out, one going for save).
Any time I see someone say survivors are "tunneling gens", they're expecting and demanding that survivors do nothing until they're ready for them. Most of these people will hard tunnel and play killer like it's comp, even using "comp" as justification for why this play style is "necessary", while deliberately ignoring that comp survivor is literally "gen rush, pre drop, run to comp corner" with situational "body blocks or saves".
Yea I dont know what they will do with their plans. Tunneling, camping and slugging that is.
Wont effect me on killer as I never really do it so I dont really care. I guess if I am not paying attention or everyone is using the same skin it might happen with tunneling, theyll have to figure that case out.
Survivor any change is welcome thats for sure. Im particularly excited for lobby loadout on my teammates finally.
Theyll have to figure out something for tournament skill level, as this is the only exception really, which people like to pretend they experience that level of play to justify these strategies, rather than admit any fault in their gameplay.
Its funny as all the people who justify these types of strategies have never actually shown their gameplay. Kind of tells you something about the things they say. Meanwhile I have put up plague, legion, nurse, artist and survivor gameplay on this forum all the time.
And yea… unfortunately false equivalency, and just false takes in general are often used as a distraction talking point rather than anything genuine. Its like a rapid fire of stuff in hopes you dont look anything up yourself.
They try to get you to talk about something else as they realize their argument is dead in the water. Like "gen regress perks are bad" or "Pain res and Pop arent meta" -
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925504#Comment_3925504
How can you tell that? He would have been half way around the loop when Kaneki's cooldown after vaulting the pallet ended. I don't think one can 100% tell for sure if he would have made it around or not, considering he went down immediately after Kaneki vaulted.
And in my experience, most survivors now make it to the other side of the pallet when I use my enraged vault while grabbing on to a survivor, because the hindered was now halfed in duration. Unless the pallet is like really, really safe.
From the video and experience you can tell.
Hes right behind him when he vaults, the bug is just immediate damage here. You can see kaneki is right on this guy after the vault.
The cooldown between him vaulting and then just m1ing the person in the clip is not even beating him past the front end of that car. He would have downed him around the front left of the car with an m1.
Just how it is unfortunately :\ -
We got juicy M1 killers out here
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Id like to preface something very simple here:
We dont know what Anti-Tunnel, Camp, Slug will even look like or what they mean by it. We have 0 idea what they are cooking up.
The response by some people seem to be thinking its all downhill, the sky is falling, everything sucks for my side but not yours etc…
We dont know. Its really that simple.
I agree with a lot of what you say about slugging. Its very hard to argue against these points about slugging from the way you have illustrated them.@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925489#Comment_3925489
Fine.
First I want to set the record straight because I think you have me confused for someone else perhaps. I have been a proponent to keep slugging around but fix the issues with it precisely because, fundimentally, it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard. Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases. I have no idea where you got the opinion i wanted survivors on gens all game from but that is not true in the slightest.
Adding more to that, I would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here. It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
So yeah, I suppose I can get a little rude when people wont be honest, wont focus on where the root problems are, and refuse to accept that the devs nerfing some things can contribute to pushing other playstyles people like even less. I suppose i can get a little rude when people respond to valid killer complaints with "get good" yet do nothing but complain when the shoe is on the other foot. Yeah I can get a little rude when people engage in bad faith by putting up stawman arguments and being disingenuous. And most recently of all, I can definitely get a little POed when someone makes a well constructed post about the problems killers have only to be met with bad faith responses.
For the record none of that third paragraph is directed at you., it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard
What do you want survivors to do? When people start using terms like gen rush and tunneling gens, sitting on gens.
What are they supposed to be doing?Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases.
Few things here.
1) You are right, you do need to go pick up your teammates.
2) Unfortunately though you dont get engagement, or chases at all. Slugging, when we are talking about killing the team by slugging out, or using it as a long term pressure relief; You do it to secure additional slugs. The reason for that is other people have to come pick the survivor up and….. →
3) When we start talking about the majority of the player base (soloQ), there are no tools for them to be able to communicate when its safe, where to go, when to come, who is coming, etc…
This is different from other games where you at least have proxy chat or some form of callout system for help on unsecured kills. DBD doesnt have this though.
So as you can imagine people rush to the save, either through a good or bad way. Get slugged, game is over.
High reward, low effort.
It ends up being a way to easily secure victory due to a lack in game design, not so much skill in the end. Which is a problem.
I am guessing the developers did not intend to see it become so common. Hook mechanics are sparsely bypassed and require a bit more from certain killers than the effort it takes to slug. So they probably dislike people bypassing the hook system unless on something like killer powers/addons that require build up time.
You also have to think about gameplay:
The people on the ground, have had meaningful gameplay disabled. If we start allowing minutes of time of just crawling and recovery/waiting, that quickly becomes an issue. The game is just stalled into a win for the killer.The core loop designed by the devs for killers is:
Chase, down, hook, repeatI would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here.
This is extremely hard to argue against. But the reason for it is because the comparison you drew here, doesnt happen with slugging. Noone is complaining about being slugged by pig/trapper/hag and then cross map you are all just working on gens.
Slugging with high movement is the problem. You proxy camp it and dont really care about the person on the ground. Chases are fast. You dont get to push out gens as you are under threat by some kaneki/nurse/blight/billy.
And in the end SOMEONE will be coming to the slug to save. Or multiple. So you dont have to proxy too far or much to begin with.
Again, stalled into a win. Not really having to do with skill. Noone could communicate or coordinate what happened.
Lets also be honest with hook timers, do you really think you are getting the full 70 seconds worth of hook time value on your hooks? Like I get the increased the timer change; but 60 to 70 I haven't noticed a difference at all.It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
Few things part II)
I cant speak for everyone else. But slugging versus a hook is a huge problem gameplay wise.
Hook you can just save, instant mechanic.
Slugging you have to wait, coordinate(somehow), person has to recover which takes awhile, and position correctly. Or you just get slugged right back down.
Its pretty obvious here what the issues are with slugging, versus hooking. Too much time investment, too much required on the survivors end(multiple of them), no way to coordinate a save… and ultimately you are still vulnerable to be downed the moment you get up.
BHVR even added protections (basekit bt) so you dont just get downed after unhook, which tells you their philosophy on stuff like this..
Its also not enjoyable. End of the day this is a video game, sure certain things you "arent meant to enjoy" but having all basic function of your character disabled for minutes is a separate category from "I dont enjoy dying".
Reducing the bleedout timer would just incentivize slugging more, not even a question, so I would have to give you hard pushback on that idea. You still end up with bleeding out more. -
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925338#Comment_3925338
That hasn't been my experience at all. I have been playing Kaneki a lot and survivors now often make it to the other side of the pallet when I use my enraged vault against them. The vault seems pretty balanced to me now.
This bug however needs to be fixed as soon as possible.
In the clip shown you dont make it around its not a 50/50.
Even without the bug he was dead. -
@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925480#Comment_3925480
I wasnt rude to people until people started gaslighting me and responding in bad faith first. The only thing stopping me from giving examples is that doing so would be a violation of the forum rules.
You could start by giving counter examples on why you think gen regress perks are bad.
Since people in tournaments use them, the entire meta on data we have available to us uses them, content creators with hours more than 4+ people in here combined say they are good perks, countless tier lists putting these perks at the top, constant stats released by the devs showing them most used…
Make a well structured argument of why all these people/data are apparently just dead wrong and use examples, because every real in game example, documented example, and outlier examples.
Disagree with gen regress perks being weak. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925366#Comment_3925366
I don't think gen defence is weak, at least not overall.
The perks are weaker, but even then, most of them work perfectly well as long as you're using them to support basekit slowdown, not replace it.
Its pretty obvious that the posters saying things like Pain Res and Pop are weak or not meta are clearly just making things up at this point.
The people saying they are weak have nothing backing up what they say and everything against them. They know it as well, its just noise/bait at this point.
We see it in the highest level of play, normal level of play, any level of play. These perks are good.
Maybe these players are just not that great at killer? whos to say. But gen slow down perks are not bad and certainly are a large part of effective meta. -
Gave you a fist bump as well
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Whats funny is he will still beat you around the pallet regardless of that bug. You were dead anyways.
Balanced killer am I right? -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925241#Comment_3925241
Its hard to discuss anything in good faith in your direction as completely false statements just come from you. With public published data telling you, you are wrong
false statements come from actually high skill matches rather than raw pubs with nonexistent matchmaking? Ok dude.
•(2024) Hillybilly recieved the largest buff we have ever seen. Moving him from d-tierto the top 5 spots in the game.
•(2025) Freddy recieved a large buff that has skyrocketed him to the number 1 kill rate slot across high MMR published by stats up from.... freddy tier, he had is own tier.
•(2024) Dredge recieved a large buff to his entire basekit. Moving him from D tier to B.
Billy was literally an S-tier long ago, after whoch he suffered a lot to finish in the low C-tier and then finally go into S-tier anymore. He was unbalanced for some time after his rework and now he literally is in a fine spot.
In terms of Freddy, he was literally a killer with the biggest killrate before his buff too, telling you how bad average survivor actually is when they suffer so much against ordinary M1 killer that is almost powerless.
DREDGE B TIER????? Are you kidding me now? Like really? Dredge is still one of the worst killers in the game that is extremely powercrept and his power is so map dependant that he barely works on only few of maps.
(2024) Adrenaline nerfed.
(2024) DS nerfed
(2023) DH nerfed
(2023) Prove nerfed
Like what "meta perk" do you want to be "touched" I think is the better question(s)?
Adrenaline received quite a small nerf.
DS literally received a completely unnecessary buff in PTB that literally destroyed low tier killers while doing nothing against Nurse, Billy and Blight (but that's what players wanted because ppl are not aware of what makes DS less powerful against Blight, Nurse and Billy) after which it received a buff that was the final version in live, which means perk literally has been buffed.
DH was literally one of the most oppressive perks to ever exist in game when it was purely based on exhaustion, now it's still one of the strongest perks, but is actually a fair one.
Prove literally received small nerfs + BPs removal, nothing serious taking in mind it's a gen perk.
And now you have StB, Reassurance and Resurgence still in the extremely strong position without any mention of at least BHVR looking into them.
No.
Someone made a post recently which is about as true as it gets. Midwhich is 100% killer sided and you would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise. A trapper can close this map down, thats how killer sided this map is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444344/map-balance-with-tier-list
you tried to counter my argument by proving part of my statement where i said Midwich is killer sided? What?
Survivor MS hasnt changed.
Duty of care is a perk with conditions and limitations. Same with sprint burst, lithe, and overcome.
are you even remotely aware of how powerful perks like SB and Lithe are? And since when is Duty of Care "perk with limitations" when it stomps every low-mid tier killer and even affects Nurse? And Babysitter which was literally a meta perk even at 10% haste being buffed for no reason?
Healing basekit has been gutted since 2023-2024. You keep flipping back and forth what you have a problem with. Perks, basekit, meta/non-meta. You cant just change the conditions of your argument every second and expect people to take you seriously.
since when does something being nerfed mean it's not powerful anymore? Especially in case of healing in general, which is still in extremely strong position?
Pain Res nerfed (still the most picked perk).
Pop (still the second most picked regress perk).
Grim Embrace receieved an extremely large buff
you are determining perk power over pickrate in pubs?
Because by your logic, Deliverance and StB are very weak perks due to low pickrate (meanwhile they are top 2 strongest survivor perks at high skill levels)
Pain Res is not S-tier anymore aftere receiving com.pletely unnecessary nerf from 20% to 15% with 4 tokens.
In terms of Pop, please take mathematical comparison between it and other regression perks and notice how it's literally only somewhat worth it if you manage to constantly get value of it on 90%+ gens.
I already told Grim Embrace is now meta, one of the only 4 meta killer perks atm.
What?
Its balanced because people give up constantly? You think the game is balanced 3v1 or less? You think the game is balanced for 20s chases or less?
Lets sit down and rethink what we type before we hit the "Post comment" feature at the bottom of the screen.
please tell me what else happens in pubs where it's already known how rampant give up epidemic is, how chases last 20s across all killers (when norm should be 40-60s against S-tiers and 90s against other killers) and how it's artificially inflating killrates? And think about it before you hit the "post comment" again.
At this point you just are making things up in your head.
Pain res
Pop
Surge
All ahead of every perk you just listed in the meta.
Ruin is ahead of eruption
This is public data.
you mentioned Surge which is a terrible slowdown on majority of killers. You mentioned Pop which is terrible unless you manage to consistently kick 90%+ gens. You mentioned Ruin which basically only works on killers like Blight that can apply consistent pressure and you severely underestimated Eruption, which is literally top 4 perk in terms of strength. Your "public data" is based on pub matches where majority of matches are played by mid players at best.
Your post is a mess. Like you are contradicting yourself. How is grim meta you say above, but then spreading hooks is punished?
If this was true then Grim wouldnt be even taken. Grim has a condition you know, do you play killer? This is an honest question.
Devour hope is meta as well.
All of this is public, published, data. I am not sure this long thread of whatever you came up with in your head, that also contradicts itself, is strengthening your arguments at all.
Ohh so wait, Grim being meta now suddenly means spreading hooks is magically not punished? Great logic, because this logic would only work if Grim is like a extremely overpowered perk with power even higher than old Eruption.
DEVOUR META????? Devour was literally never meta, what are you talking about?
And again, you are speaking of public data based on same public matches where worst killers have the highest killrates, Nurse seems like underpowered killer and Skull Merchant is not one of the worst killers in the game atm.
false statements come from actually high skill matches rather than raw pubs with nonexistent matchmaking? Ok dude.
I mean both of them are false for you. In tournaments every single one of your statements backfires when we look at perk loadout, and then pub you may as well not have typed anything.
For everyones reference on actual high level play, heres video(s) on what perks are used in high level play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh_iUFYYokI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa02NajVQq8
Notice none of what Narko is saying is true at all.Billy was literally an S-tier long ago, after whoch he suffered a lot to finish in the low C-tier and then finally go into S-tier anymore. He was unbalanced for some time after his rework and now he literally is in a fine spot.
How far back are we going with your comments? Because first it was within the last year, and now we are talking about billy before the introduction of overheat in 2020?
I think I will just stop here as this post of yours illustrates you are off on some tangent that is so divorced from reality, that continuing conversation seems to be a waste of time.You make up meta in your own mind, ignore actual data we have published to us, and constantly contradict your own talking points. And honestly just make things up that are published saying otherwise.
Good luck! -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925241#Comment_3925241
I agree with you overall here, but I do feel the need to point out, healing basekit hasn't changed since Spirit's release. The only healing nerfs we've seen were to medkits and Circle of Healing specifically.
Otherwise, fair points all around.
And I am happy with it too, healing was WAY too strong before its rework on medkits and COH. It was out of control.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924908#Comment_3924908
They've been doing exactly this in literally every patch for three years now.
The past year has had individual killer buffs, base kit, add-on reworks, and usually 2-3 killers per chapter or so.
literally small tweaks to killer basekit, individual small buffs that eventually move killers 1-tier up at best.
One single buff they do to a survivor overshadowed multiple killer buffs. All killer strats got further indirectly nerfed by introduction of new survivor basekit tweaks and perks, while the most oppressive survivor strat, early gen splitting is still literally untouched.
Not to mention that none of the actual survivor meta perks were touched either.
Maps have been reworked, tile spawn logic changed, pallets significantly weakened, entire realms reworked, newer maps are smaller and have tons of dead zones.
and still, huge majority of maps are still survivor sided, Autohaven maps are bugged and they spawn more pallets than they are supposed to, while the only truly problematic killer sided maps are Haddonfield, Vecna's map and somewhat Midwich.
Bloodlust had been buffed, anti gen tap completely eliminated gen tapping, hooks respawn. Healing was gutted specifically by request so people could play hit and run.
Bloodlust has been buffed...and then you take a look at changes to survivor MS, latest being release of Orella's perk Duty of Care. Despite hooks respawning, they are in the worst state they have ever been, where spreading hooks heavily benefits survivors and tunneling and camping are punished harder than ever.
Healing gutted? It's literally still absolutely strong. Resurgence exists, Syringes exist and you can literally heal fast with just Surgical Suture on a medkit. Healing is still in a very strong spot, while anti-healing status effects have all been indirectly further nerfed by Vigil buff (Sloppy hardcore because it went to limited Haemorrage and Mangled).
Just about every single class of killer perk has been buffed. (The one exception to this is literally the only reason for your post, and I'll finish with that)
literally majority of killer meta perks were hit with multiple nerf hammers, you are talking about buffs to perks that are used more in gimmicky builds than in actual high level gameplay.
They spent 3 years deliberately altering the game balance from basically every direction to increase kill rates, and successfully. They've even gotten it to the point where, overall, SWF and solo are escaping at roughly the same abysmally low rate.
i don't see a mention of "matchmaking issue" anywhere. Game literally looks balanced exclusively because of almost nonexistent matchmaking, community that gives up 2 mins into matches and players that last 20s in chases. Like let's sit down and think about how killrates got up on the first place.
So, the only reason for this post to even exist is the only thing they haven't given killers back: gen kick meta levels of regression. It's all some people want is complete control of the game. They've given a metric ton of information, chase, and utility. And all people want is infinite time (or currently, 10 minutes of holding the game hostage).
they have literally gutted slowdown meta to the point where only meta gen related perks are Corrupt, DMS, Grim Embrace and Eruption. We are in an era where survivors have hard control of the match.
So no. Not every change in the game requires some kind of compensation buff.
really? Forcing hooks, and most important spreading them is hardcore punished, tunneling and camping are pretty much dead, slugging is not possible against organized teams, like please tell me where are incentives for actually "playing fair" by the rulebooks?
Its hard to discuss anything in good faith in your direction as completely false statements just come from you. With public published data telling you, you are wrong.
literally small tweaks to killer basekit, individual small buffs that eventually move killers 1-tier up at best.•(2024) Hillybilly recieved the largest buff we have ever seen. Moving him from d-tierto the top 5 spots in the game.
•(2025) Freddy recieved a large buff that has skyrocketed him to the number 1 kill rate slot across high MMR published by stats up from.... freddy tier, he had is own tier.
•(2024) Dredge recieved a large buff to his entire basekit. Moving him from D tier to B.Not to mention that none of the actual survivor meta perks were touched either.
(2024) Adrenaline nerfed.
(2024) DS nerfed
(2023) DH nerfed
(2023) Prove nerfedLike what "meta perk" do you want to be "touched" I think is the better question(s)?
and still, huge majority of maps are still survivor sided, Autohaven maps are bugged and they spawn more pallets than they are supposed to, while the only truly problematic killer sided maps are Haddonfield, Vecna's map and somewhat Midwich.
No.
Someone made a post recently which is about as true as it gets. Midwhich is 100% killer sided and you would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise. A trapper can close this map down, thats how killer sided this map is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444344/map-balance-with-tier-listBloodlust has been buffed...and then you take a look at changes to survivor MS, latest being release of Orella's perk Duty of Care.
Survivor MS hasnt changed.
Duty of care is a perk with conditions and limitations. Same with sprint burst, lithe, and overcome.Healing gutted? It's literally still absolutely strong. Resurgence exists, Syringes exist and you can literally heal fast with just Surgical Suture on a medkit. Healing is still in a very strong spot, while anti-healing status effects have all been indirectly further nerfed by Vigil buff (Sloppy hardcore because it went to limited Haemorrage and Mangled).
Healing basekit has been gutted since 2023-2024. You keep flipping back and forth what you have a problem with. Perks, basekit, meta/non-meta. You cant just change the conditions of your argument every second and expect people to take you seriously.
literally majority of killer meta perks were hit with multiple nerf hammers, you are talking about buffs to perks that are used more in gimmicky builds
Pain Res nerfed (still the most picked perk).
Pop (still the second most picked regress perk).
Grim Embrace receieved an extremely large buffSo not only are you just wrong. But you dont want buffs to non-meta perks?
You seem non appreciative at all on any of the perk buffs this last year.i don't see a mention of "matchmaking issue" anywhere. Game literally looks balanced exclusively because of almost nonexistent matchmaking, community that gives up 2 mins into matches and players that last 20s in chases. Like let's sit down and think about how killrates got up on the first place.
What?
Its balanced because people give up constantly? You think the game is balanced 3v1 or less? You think the game is balanced for 20s chases or less?
Lets sit down and rethink what we type before we hit the "Post comment" feature at the bottom of the screen.
they have literally gutted slowdown meta to the point where only meta gen related perks are Corrupt, DMS, Grim Embrace and Eruption. We are in an era where survivors have hard control of the match.
At this point you just are making things up in your head.
Pain res
Pop
SurgeAll ahead of every perk you just listed in the meta.
Ruin is ahead of eruption
This is public data.
really? Forcing hooks, and most important spreading them is hardcore punished, tunneling and camping are pretty much dead, slugging is not possible against organized teams, like please tell me where are incentives for actually "playing fair" by the rulebooks?
Your post is a mess. Like you are contradicting yourself. How is grim meta you say above, but then spreading hooks is punished?
If this was true then Grim wouldnt be even taken. Grim has a condition you know, do you play killer? This is an honest question.
Devour hope is meta as well.All of this is public, published, data. I am not sure this long thread of whatever you came up with in your head, that also contradicts itself, is strengthening your arguments at all.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Killers need compensation in other areas, whether it’s basekit improvements, better chase mechanics, or meaningful perk reworks,
They've been doing exactly this in literally every patch for three years now.
The past year has had individual killer buffs, base kit, add-on reworks, and usually 2-3 killers per chapter or so.
Maps have been reworked, tile spawn logic changed, pallets significantly weakened, entire realms reworked, newer maps are smaller and have tons of dead zones.
Bloodlust had been buffed, anti gen tap completely eliminated gen tapping, hooks respawn. Healing was gutted specifically by request so people could play hit and run.
Just about every single class of killer perk has been buffed. (The one exception to this is literally the only reason for your post, and I'll finish with that)
They spent 3 years deliberately altering the game balance from basically every direction to increase kill rates, and successfully. They've even gotten it to the point where, overall, SWF and solo are escaping at roughly the same abysmally low rate.
So, the only reason for this post to even exist is the only thing they haven't given killers back: gen kick meta levels of regression. It's all some people want is complete control of the game. They've given a metric ton of information, chase, and utility. And all people want is infinite time (or currently, 10 minutes of holding the game hostage).
So no. Not every change in the game requires some kind of compensation buff.
Yea pretty much what @AmpersandUnderscore says here
Specific killer adjustments have been happening all year, so it can continue to happen as well as addressing tunneling/camping/slugging.
People for some reason think that both these cant be true -
@jesterkind said:
I think you can simplify it more than that.
Tunnelling is the act of chasing someone either as soon as they're unhooked, or very close to that instant.
Other definitions tend to get caught in the weeds, in my opinion. This gets at the core problem - leveraging the vulnerability someone has while being injured and out of position after being unhooked - without allowing for too many false positives. The only caveat I'd put on it is that obviously this stops being a problem when the gens are done, that's a last-ditch moment for killer.
Tunnelling is the act of chasing someone either as soon as they're unhooked, or very close to that instant.
Yup!
-
@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924538#Comment_3924538
Tbh I'd want a perk that hides my aura from teammates but the killer is still able to see me, as you said sometimes your teammates are the real killers lmao.
Even playing killer here and there I see this and like you seriously lead me to your injured teammate? I wont hook them if I hit them since I dont tunnel and that is the rare circumstance I slug so someone else gets them up.and go for the sandbagger.
Yea there is so many situations I am in where I need a button that spams
"Please stop following me" -
@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924517#Comment_3924517
Bond= people sandbag when your on a gen by purposely running killer to you or other teammates on gens. They also sandbag by running killer to you injured who is injured, yet they are healthy or other injured teammates who just got unhooked. Finally big shocker, they use it to hide and let everyone die for hatch. They are 100x worst than distortion users.
Sprint burst= getting put in stage 2 hook from 1 exists still because people trying to save their sprint burst.
What? I run bond for protection hits. And getting giga value out of it now with duty of care.
Bond also lets me know a lot of information on where to take chase away from teammates on gens and what not. -
Thank god. Been asking for this for several years at this point
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924247#Comment_3924247
What you're completely ignoring is the
actual decision-making spacethat survivors have when playing against Nurse.
ignoring? Nurse literally doesn't have as low decision-making space as you think she does.
In the gif I posted, the survivor had two options:
Keep running to try and make max distance (which she did), and still get hit.
very smart, holding W against Nurse that has info of your position thanks to you leaving scratch marks while being in range of both blinks.
Throw a
god pallet, one that every other killer,including Spirit, has to break. But not Nurse. I was on her instantly, and if she had thrown it, I would’ve just downed her sooner.Not a single other killerin that same scenario lands that hit. Only Nurse.
literally every killer that has teleporting in their kit or can vault with their power can do this. Blight with Brutal doesn't even care it's a god pallet, he is onto you literally immediately.
Like let's be real and stop talking absolute nonsense.
So again, it's not about "auras" or just "sound." It's that Nurse
bypasses the core rules of the game, and she does it with
minimal cooldown, no forced counterplay, and no real commitment.Nurse has UNIQUE COUNTERPLAY compared to other killers, and that counterplay is literally macro oriented. The fact that you think only killer being able to be fully countered in chase is considered at least somewhat counterable (Nurse is the only top 5 killer that struggles a lot against haste perks when actually in chase anyways) really shows that your view of dbd gameplay is very narrow.
And I don’t know why you're calling that a "prediction blink." Or a correction, I looked dead on her, look at the footage its right there. I heard her, I saw her, I blinked
exactlyon top of her. There was no guessing, just abusing mechanics that only Nurse has access to.first blink after her vaulting was literally a prediction blink where you teleported to a spot where you expected her to go, she left scratch marks and then she showed you where she was directed, last clue was sound.
This is such a horrendous false-equivalence and mis-frame of what was said.
This would be like saying, "Well you tracked a survivor with Scratch Marks as Huntress, so I guess huntress is highly problematic then too LOL."
Lets stay on topic as well as stay consistent with what was said. Misframing is not helping, and improper use of comparisons isnt contributing to genuine discussions.sorry but making fun of such a funny statement about a killer was something i couldn't resist :p
This whole exchange is still avoiding her not needing aura to be broken.
ignoring? Nurse literally doesn't have as low decision-making space as you think she does.
There was two decisions she had there. Get distance or go up.
If you want to back seat game she could have double backed into me, and I would have seen it and hit her anyways. I just got done hitting her without having to even see her, you think I dont know how to deal with a double back?
You go off on survivor skill afterwards on them "holding W" but then you cant apply that to nurse here? This is disingenuous, and not surprising.literally every killer that has teleporting in their kit or can vault with their power can do this. Blight with Brutal doesn't even care it's a god pallet, he is onto you literally immediately.
Like let's be real and stop talking absolute nonsense.
Okay first off. You think blight is a balanced killer as well? I just want to see where we are here as balance is the underlying theme of this entire thread. Comparing this to another broken thing does not strengthen your argument.
And it doesnt even matter in the end.
You do not get this hit with blight still, you have to break the pallet and travel the hallway. And obey all the normal mechanics of dbd.
Every teleporting killer? Lets see where you are going with this comment further. Id love to see what you think will get this hit across this pallet. Make sure to not think in a vacuum here. The entire play is the gif, not just "a hit across a god pallet"
This comment is a mess from you. Lets be real indeed.Nurse has UNIQUE COUNTERPLAY compared to other killers, and that counterplay is literally macro oriented. The fact that you think only killer being able to be fully countered in chase is considered at least somewhat counterable (Nurse is the only top 5 killer that struggles a lot against haste perks when actually in chase anyways) really shows that your view of dbd gameplay is very narrow.
She has, 0, counterplay.
Calling it "macro" is just a euphemism for "don’t get found," because the second she sees you, your options disappear, unless skill issue on the nurses part. That’s not deep gameplay, that’s erasure of decision-making.
Thats what nurse play is. Its binary.
1) Broken (you dont struggle at nurse)
2) Skill issue play (you struggle at nurse)
With 0 in between.
If you're entire argument is "just dont get seen" as evidence of counterplay then you need to understand the difference between counterplay and avoidance.Your mentioning of Nurse, Spirit, Blight, and "teleporting killers" so far, makes me seriously question whether you play killer at any meaningful level. Blight and Spirit at least interact with core mechanics like pathing and pallet play. Nurse? She ignores them entirely. That’s not just "unique", it’s broken by design.
There needs to be some downside, and that threshold is not met with her current kit (in my opinion)first blink after her vaulting was literally a prediction blink where you teleported to a spot where you expected her to go, she left scratch marks and then she showed you where she was directed, last clue was sound.
Okay, I don’t think you actually play Nurse.
That first blink wasn’t a prediction, and it definitely wasn’t a guess. It was a max-range blink to the only logical direction based on real-time information. You cannot physically land a hit with that blink, it’s purely to close distance.
I heard her, I saw the scratch marks going out the door. So I blinked down the hallway.
That’s not prediction, that’s tracking.
I held my camera forward for half a second to rule out a straight run, then I heard her go right, as well as scratch marks, squealing and sprinting. So I turned and landed directly on top of her.
That’s not luck. That’s not a read. That’s just mechanics and sensory information, like aiming without a reticle, but still based on clear inputs.
Thats part of nurses skill ceiling. -
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924328#Comment_3924328
No, there isn’t a fixed time normally, you’re thinking of specific sports. In recreational sports we also aren’t playing for money or prestige. None of these things apply. You’re also acting like the abandon feature is for bleed outs, it’s not. You’re able to abandon immediately on being downed. Yall being slugged is not yall being bled out. The vast, vast majority of all the abandons like 99% are just as soon as they hit the ground. So no, we aren’t talking laying there for 5min while they “celebrate”, that’s disingenuous.
The abandon feature is absolutely not to prevent being held hostage. That is like a decimal percentage of games. 99% of matches abandoned are literally just normal games that you’re being allowed to abandon early to go next faster. That’s it. In the vast majority of matches it IS used as rage quit to move on faster.
You just said earlier about handshakes and …. announcements? What? Who does this in pick up games?
I think we’re actually circling the same issue from two different angles.
You’re right that people are using the abandon feature the moment they go down, not necessarily waiting for a 5-minute bleed-out. That’s absolutely true. But that doesn’t mean the reason it was implemented didn’t originate from stalling and hostage scenarios.
The sports analogy, I think it breaks down because DBD isn’t built on the same expectations or pacing. In sports, even recreational ones, both sides agree to the clock, the structure, and the outcome. In DBD, the power imbalance means one side can stall for no reason except personal satisfaction or pettiness. There’s no handshake at the end when the last survivor is forced to lie on the ground for 3 minutes.
Abandoning early doesn’t feel like poor sportsmanship in this context. It feels like skipping a pointless wait, where there's nothing to gain, no comeback potential, and no actual play left.
If the endgame were 10–20 seconds long every time, I don’t think we’d even need this conversation. But it often is not. And the moment the game makes you just sit there for someone else’s satisfaction, it stops being a game and becomes a chore. That’s what the feature is addressing.
Like the equivalent of this would be if as soon as the final gen was completed the killer could instantly abandon as well. I mean this would be fair based on the survivor abandon criteria,
This statement though just ignores so much context on completion of the last generator, and end game in general. I think you meant to say once the gates are opened, but even that really fails. Because that still is a mechanic to escaping, and you can get great, average, or poor outcomes on gate positions.
You can still get a kill or a win, even when the last generator is completed.
Once the gates are powered though its still alive not everyone is at the gate. You dont know that.Its just a poor equivalence here, the game is not preventing you from playing like slugging/downed/hooked is. The game isnt over yet or immobilizing you from play just because the exit gates are powered.
-
@Shroompy said:
Just because the exit gates are open doesnt mean the game is over. Survivor on the other hand, if everyone is being bled out there is literally nothing else they can do unless they have a way to pick themselves back up.
yup, gotten many kills and hookstates/points because of over cocky survivors.
Its honestly the best feeling in this game is getting someone at the exit gates XD@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924299#Comment_3924299
I was referencing American and not professional. Like you don’t generally see any of this in recreational sports. Like I played sports all my life growing up as a kid and even we get destroyed we saw the whole game through till the end, shook hands, stayed for the announcements ect.
If every time we were too far behind to win we just instantly quit and walked off the field that would look so petty and childish. It’s not good sportsmanship.
That’s fair to bring up, but the comparison doesn't really hold when you look at how games like DBD function versus real-life sports.
In a recreational sport, there’s a guaranteed fixed length, and both sides are expected to see it through because there's value in playing for prestige/money, learning from mistakes, or just getting the exercise. There’s no equivalent of one team forcing the other to stand still for 5 minutes while they celebrate, which is what "bleeding out" often amounted to in DBD.
DBD isn’t a fixed-time game. It’s a player-determined match where one side can literally prolong the ending just because they feel like it. That’s not sportsmanship, that’s stalling. The abandon feature wasn't created so people could "rage quit"; it was created so people don’t get held hostage by players who won’t let the game end.
The exit gates being powered doesnt mean the game is over by a long shot as many have pointed out. And the time it would take to push people out is 10-20 seconds.
-
Asking this question is ignoring why It was implemented in the first place.
Killers already had a chance to show people what they would do without the feature. And unfortunately, they would unnecessarily extend the match, with no way for survivors to do anything about it for several minutes. The survivor role.
The exit gates, you can go push them out, your arent powerless. It does not take several minutes.
One is based on gameplay mechanical abuse, the other is based on feelings.
Push them out, or go break things for points. There is no need to give this to killers who cant stand losing.
Truth hurts :\ -
Legion is only unfun to go against when you are stuck on a team that doesnt spread out and also doesnt body block against feral snowballing.
Seems contradictory I know but body blocking a feral chain is extremely effective and then you spread out again.
Survivor teams just make it annoying as they often run in the same direction, bunch up on the same generator, refuse to body block feral in mend for non-mended teammates.
Its not something that can be taught unfortunately. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923981#Comment_3923981
yes, literally only her synergy with perks like NTH is problematic atm and only thing she still needs is Blindness on blink charges.
You think this is fine? Its just aura read is the problem?
I knew where she was based on sound. You think nurse isnt a problem if we take sound away? I wasnt even off by a millimeter here.
so you think she is the problem based on the fact that you managed to hit a survivor thanks to sound after doing a prediction blink and then a correction one as soon as you hears survivor? I guess Spirit is highly problematic then too LOL.
Really funny statement ngl.
This is another sidestep. Sheesh forums…
What you're completely ignoring is the actual decision-making space that survivors have when playing against Nurse.
In the gif I posted, the survivor had two options:
- Keep running to try and make max distance (which she did), and still get hit.
- Throw a god pallet, one that every other killer, including Spirit, has to break. But not Nurse. I was on her instantly, and if she had thrown it, I would’ve just downed her sooner.
Not a single other killer in that same scenario lands that hit. Only Nurse.
So again, it's not about "auras" or just "sound." It's that Nurse bypasses the core rules of the game, and she does it with minimal cooldown, no forced counterplay, and no real commitment.
And I don’t know why you're calling that a "prediction blink." Or a correction, I looked dead on her, look at the footage its right there. I heard her, I saw her, I blinked exactly on top of her. There was no guessing, just abusing mechanics that only Nurse has access to.
hanks to sound after doing a prediction blink and then a correction one as soon as you hears survivor? I guess Spirit is highly problematic then too LOL.
Really funny statement ngl.
This is such a horrendous false-equivalence and mis-frame of what was said.
This would be like saying, "Well you tracked a survivor with Scratch Marks as Huntress, so I guess huntress is highly problematic then too LOL."
Lets stay on topic as well as stay consistent with what was said. Misframing is not helping, and improper use of comparisons isnt contributing to genuine discussions. -
You still cant beat him around a pallet its actually so stupid.
I honestly will just start calling this killer nurse lite. As its just under her power level, but for people that cant play nurse due to her learning curve. -
There are some absolute broken spawns still in the game like look at this
Like if they dont get one of these done, the game is just over.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924038#Comment_3924038
You don't seem to understand the concept of "big picture" It means you are considering an aspect in a zoomed out perspective and considering everything outside of what you personally witness. That includes those other players, and as someone who is almost exclusively one of those players who have to deal with a teammate DCing, it 100% prefer the killer not feed into their behavior. Of course I am considering their perspective because the vast majority of the time, I am one of them. Thats still a microcosmic perspective of course, while the actual big picture is the overall impact on the game's health. If one person changes their behavior, its worth it. You don't just give a screaming child candy to shut it up, you teach it that its behavior will not be rewarded.
As for the "just alt tab" argument, that is true. Its not intended to make them suffer, its intended to make them take responsibility for their actions. And again, thats time they aren't in the queue or in another match being just as disruptive. Thats why I said it objectively reduces their ability to ruin other games, because as survivors who hate being slugged often posit, those 4 minutes add up when you get slugged in multiple games.
It has nothing to do with "roleplaying dbd police," especially since I almost exclusively play survivor. I simply hate when players force me into a 1v3 due to their own selfishness, and I know its a widespread enough issue that it compounds the frustrations of many other survivor players as well. If people stopped playing into it, going next would be less effective. The solution would be to prevent going next entirely and force people to eat the matchmaking ban no matter what method they use, but we're clearly not there yet, and there is a downright baffling defense for this behavior I've never seen in any other game. Even ones with drop in/out.
i dont know why youre getting argumentative about it.
1)You arent stopping someone from doing anything in this game. You are not the police
Big picture are you stopping them from ever doing it again? Yes or no?
You're just not.
2) You are 100% roleplaying dbd policeits intended to make them take responsibility for their actions.
Im stepping away from this discussion as I dont really see the point in this back and forth. Its a terrible situation to be in. -
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924038#Comment_3924038
I can only speak for myself, but I don't do it out of some sense of 'dbd policing'.
I do it because as a solo Q main teammates like them are legitimately the worst kind of thing in this game and so I'm not going to reward their annoying behaviour by giving them what they want. If you want out of a match THAT badly, then DC.
And yeah it starts at 2 minutes, but the DC penalty is also there to make players who get so upset they DC a 'cool off' period. That's it's other function.
Thats their fallback though is what I am saying.
Like they are getting what they want no matter what in this situation (probably why its going to be acted on soon™)
Either they go next quickly, or they ruin the match since they didnt get their way.
Its a lose lose unfortunately. -
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924031#Comment_3924031
And I disagree. I think that anyone who just takes the free kill asap is thinking small picture, because they are enabling that behavior instead of disincentivizing it. They also do have a lose condition, which is the same reason they are going next instead of DCing: They're trying to minimize how much of their own time is wasted, their lose condition is them being stuck in a match and delayed in getting into another match to ruin.
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924031#Comment_3924031
I mean, you are doing something technically - you're wasting THEIR time. Making it more likely they'll just DC and get punished by the game's systems for it
If they just DC'd at least then the other 3 people have a bot who will contribute something to the match instead of giving up on first hook.
If you think that you are magically going to stop this "give up" behavior by slugging them, by all means continue thinking that.
You are making it inconvenient for them to do it often, but you aren't stopping them from their next matches. You aren't disincentivizing anything.
This is why its not really thinking big picture. In the moment, sure for your match and your lobby you are wasting their time. But this kind of behavior doesnt just stop because someone made another person wait 2 minutes. You can just alt tab and watch youtube or get a drink in that time.
And it still doesnt solve the problem that the match is now over.
Im not saying this is right to do at all, just giving up. But your also not doing anything productive by "roleplaying dbd police" either
And a bot is too variable. Most players will just go next if someone else did. Sadly. -
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923521#Comment_3923521
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923579#Comment_3923579
The person giving up is the one punishing the other players. Trying to pass that off onto the killer who refuses to play into their tantrum while absolving the survivor who gave up is misdirected at best. And as rebutted before, that person who is slugged is both being prevented from ruining more matches while they wait, and also given the opportunity to calm down and actually try. The more people justify giving up (whether themselves, or when other people do it) the more they normalize the behavior and give those players misplaced validation in their excuses. Alternatively, if they get slugged every time they give up and have to waste 4+ minutes waiting before they can ruin more games, they will objectively be less able to affect others with their disruptive behavior and refusal to participate.
Its the entire idea behind a disconnect penalty in the first place. The one the game already has. The issue is that people are allowed to abuse part of the game's design to circumvent that penalty. Slugging go nexters is literally doing what you can to make that loophole less appealing, especially since it requires the killer's direct cooperation.
Im not trying to shift blame yes, it originated from the spazoid that wants to give up early 100%.
I am just illustrating that anyone thinking they are doing something, just or right,by slugging the person out is not really thinking big picture is all.
The person that is "going next" doesnt really have a lose condition here. Either they waste everyone elses time or they go next. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923812#Comment_3923812
Spirit is a decent killer, Larry too, Dracula and Billy too, but Oni is more of a just "fun" killer in comp because outcome of matches is really 50/50, while Plague is even more hardcore 50/50.
Nurse is NOT the problem atm if we exclude aura perks on her, but Blight is due to multiple reasons.
Nurse is not a problem if we exclude aura read?
Aura read is in the game so you cant just say "shes not a problem if we exclude aura read"
So is many killer builds and addons.
Plagues most broken addon is incense. Playing with it you just win no matter what. Perma puke aura read on a mostly m1 killer.
Nurse still has many core problems with her like hitting this required no aura read
Name a killer that could do this:
You think this is fine? Its just aura read is the problem?
I knew where she was based on sound. You think nurse isnt a problem if we take sound away? I wasnt even off by a millimeter here. -
I commend you for being honest with your struggles. Many people dont try to be vulnerable like this as "get good" or "just find better players to play with" usually chime in.
Its like girl meme answer to being homeless "just buy a house"
Matchmaking is broken, I get people that range from 13k hours to 20 hours.
People with a full loadout, to people with no loadout
Its annoying that speed was priority for matchmaking but here we are.
I think I to fall short of that number as solo survivor somewhere in the 30 range. Youll have your off and on days though for sure. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923937#Comment_3923937
I personally don't look at that in terms of "high level" because 1800 MMR is not "high level" in my book, 1800 in chess is like average level. MMR is capped somewhere in the 2000s. I'm talking about the top say, 0.5% of players.
If you believe those stats, then you believe that Freddy is better than nurse, so why are we talking about nurse? If we are talking about above that level, sure again, lets talk about Alf.
I'm not rejecting your evidence, but you are refusing to answer the simpl question.
But again, you brought up Alf, which again, i DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU SO STOP SAYING I DO. Lets say we again balance around what the HIGHEST LEVEL PLAYER is capable of (I.E. Alf) as nurse.
Again, if you balance the game around what the best players in the world are doing, then yes, by all means, look at Alf and nerf the nurse. But you have refused to answer the question, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF PLAY, ONLY LIKE 4 KILLERS ARE VIABLE.
Again, if you took the best killer player for each killer in the world, and pit them against eternal for 10 games. How many of them do you think would actually get even close to a 50% win rate?
So, answer my question, should the game be balanced around average skill players, or high skill players?
The point is, take literally the best killer player of each killer in the entire world. And pit them up against even like a top 1000 team of 4 survivors and have them play 10 matches in a row. Lets pretend its on a map that is perfectly fair, and RNG is completely removed.
Its habitual at this point. You are literally walking back things you said within the last hour; when someone disproves you. Like its now apparently not okay to use the best killer player but back here it was.
You're goal post shifting now. Against data. And now into what suits you, even though theres no data for it, just whatever number you can make up in your head with 2000s and 0.5%.
You just got done citing data what happened? Doesnt align with reality?
I know it doesnt. Thats the point Reinami.You don’t get to ignore real, recorded dominance just because it’s inconvenient to your argument.
And you dont get to cherry pick data from things you cite, but then refute data that comes from that same source.
And you dont get to just make up data in your head like you are doing here.
At this point Reinami, I would step away from responding to me if you are going to constantly backtrack against things you say yourself, ignore parts of data you cite, and make up data; its not providing any meaningful discussion and you arent staying grounded in your own words. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923928#Comment_3923928
I'm not being contradictory. You are bringing up win streaks which don't matter for balance for the very reasons i mentioned. Also everyone comes up with their own definition of what a "Win" is for those win streaks. For example, someone might see a single survivor escaping the gate as a loss. Whereas someone else might think what matters is getting more than 2 kills.
My point is simply this.
Do you believe the game should be balanced around AVERAGE level players, or HIGH LEVEL players. If you balance the game around HIGH LEVEL players. Again, i'm not disagreeing with you, sure, lets nerf the nurse because of what players like Alf can do. But you still MUST contend with the fact that there are like 4 viable killers in the game at that level, and either massively buff the rest of the killers, or massively nerf survivors as a whole.
Let me make this really simple for you:
Yes, you are being contradictory, all over this thread.
You said this:
"If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that at the highest level, Nurse is pretty much one of the only viable killers."
But when I bring up actual, documented, recorded high-skill performance, like SupaAlf’s 1,132 win streak, or tournament teams like Team Eternal, suddenly it “doesn’t matter.” Now you’re dismissing the clearest examples we have of high-level gameplay.
Then you pivot and say:
"But the data doesn’t show it. Even Nurse, when looking at HIGH MMR per BHVR’s stats, always shows her at the middle of the pack at best."
So now you’re hugging BHVR’s public kill rate data, which is still averaged out across thousands of players with wildly different skill levels, even at "high MMR." You’re moving the goalposts to whatever supports your point in the moment.
You can’t claim Nurse is only viable at high skill and then reject high-skill evidence when it makes her look broken. You also can’t dismiss win streaks as subjective while acting like kill rate stats are gospel; especially when those stats are shaped by player volume, not peak potential.
Since you brought up the stats? Let’s look at them.
You don’t get to call Nurse "only viable at high level" and then turn around and ignore the actual high-level evidence when it makes her look too strong. That’s not a consistent argument, it’s just cherry-picking to protect your stance.
If we’re talking about real balance at the top level, we need to acknowledge that Nurse isn’t just viable, she’s in a completely different league.
You've now triple downed on something you aren't even staying consistent with. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923925#Comment_3923925
But the data doesn't show it. Even nurse when looking at HIGH MMR per BHVRs stats always shows her at the middle of the pack at best.
Which one is it with you? The data does or doesnt matter?
You just got done saying a bunch of killers that show up on stats HIGHER than her, at high mmr nontheless, are not viable.
But here you cite me the stats?
Reinami you are being contradictory with every post. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923884#Comment_3923884
Everything you are talking about is when playing a high level nurse against an "average" survivor team. The math is far different when you pit high level nurse against a high level team.
Its not though.
And your post is entirely contradictory and inconsistent.If you balance the game around average skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that nurse is one of the lowest, if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game, meaning that she likely needs massive buffs
If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST conted with the fact that at the highest level, nurse is pretty much one of the only viable killers.
You cant have it both ways
Nurse at the highest level =/= survivors at the highest level
SupaAlf = highest level
1132 wins in a row
Team Eternal = highest level
50 wins in a row + or - 5
So nurse at its highest level (that any player has ever documented/recorded in this games history) had to play 1132 straight games to finally lose.
A full comms team, that plays tournaments, gets paid money, plays for prizes. (that any group of players have every documented/recorded in this games history) Can only manage a win streak of around 50.
Reinami, these two are so divorced from being equal from eachother that they dont live in the same universe
Let me fix what you posted above:
1) Your average killer player, is horrendous at nurse (as seen by stats multiple times)
2) Your average killer player, is excelling at killers at a high level, you deem nonviable (as seen by published stats of high MMR)
We know:
1) Nurse is THE strongest killer in the game
2) Other killers arent even close to her power
Given these facts backed by data released to us, as well as published records of the above win streaks, and her unique playstyle.
Your arguments about balancing at any "skill level" simply fail.So when it comes to Nurse, the usual arguments of “what about high level,” “what about low level,” or “what about average players” simply don’t apply.
•At low level, players fail because she’s hard to use.
•At high level, she dominates so hard she breaks the game’s balance (1132 wins in a row).
•At average level, she still has access to mechanics that ignore core survivor gameplay entirely — she just requires reps to unlock that dominance.Nurse isn’t a matter of matchmaking brackets or skill levels — she’s a design outlier, and that’s where the problem lies.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444698/nurse
As a nurse main, i'm going to say the same thing i say in every single thread about her.
Do you balance the game around average skill players, or top level players?
- If you balance the game around average skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that nurse is one of the lowest, if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game, meaning that she likely needs massive buffs
- If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST conted with the fact that at the highest level, nurse is pretty much the only viable killer.
You don't get to have it both ways.
Your proposal would basically make her even worse for average skill players, while only slightly nerfing her at the high levels. The reason she's so good at a high level is because she can end chases extremely quickly a good nurse is going to land a hit with every blink, that's a chase ending within 10 seconds or so. Adding a 3rd forced "attack" to that, just extends that chase to, what, maybe 16-20 seconds? She's still going to be extremly strong in the hands of a good player.
But again, that brings me back to my point, in the hands of a good player. Why do people always want to nerf nurse despite the fact that she's only as good as she is when played by an extremely skilled or experienced player, but when we talk about nerfing survivors or buffing other killers its "won't someone think of the casuals?!"
If you are truly a nurse main then you need to have some humbleness as its an entirely different mode of play compared to working around pallets, dealing with strong vaults, no zone play, exhaustion perks … pretty much everything.
I mained her as it was my first killer, but I do NOT take her seriously anymore. Its the same story every time I revisit her, your opponents are completely helpless. That post I made above linking to my solutions; shows you just how stupid it is. Why the actual living F are you able to cover a quarter of the map in distance with 2 blinks and able to get a hit WITH A PALLET IN YOUR FACE???
The game is mind numbingly easy playing her once you reach a certain level. You shouldnt be rewarded with this at some skill progression, there still should be some fight back, but there just is not.
You have to nerf yourself heavily and you'll still win ie:
1) let the survivors complete a gen as you constantly 5 out EVEN spreading hooks
2) go somewhere in the map YOU KNOW there is no survivors just to not TR scare them off progression as the only counter to her, which isnt even really a counter; is pre run her TR
3) nod/spin do silly gestures etc.
4) not run stronger perks
5) go out of your way, even if someone is standing in front of you, not to tunnel them regardless of gen progression
it takes an absolute disgusting team like we are talking one in a few hundred, to have any noticeable chance against you. As well as an unfavorable map.The only reason she has not recieved further nerfs is because of her skill floor, its the highest in the game of all killers. I think this is a mistake by the devs, we should NOT look at this factor AT ALL, that is purely skill issue holding back further nerfs.
Im in no way shape or form as good as SupaAlf with 1132 wins in a row but I am def in the 400-500 range without a doubt, I know this because the addon for lunge RAN OUT, while still spending points, and I had over 400 of them and NEVER lost a round.
Even the stupid addon that disables your power for a minute and you walk at 4.6, I got constant wins with. Even meme ONLY Campbells last breath challenges (can only damage on a full two blinks) I have gotten wins with.@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923812#Comment_3923812
- Spirit has been nerfed constantly and isn't as good because you can just know where she is all the time now, she is nowhere near as good a she used to be
- Singularity is a joke, he shreds through pallets quick, but oh look, you shredded 2 pallets and now 3 gens are gone, guess you just lose.
- Plague is not viable because the survivors just don't cleanse until the proper times and she has no power the whole game, basically the entire game hinges on whether she can get a couple of downs during the 1 free use of her power she gets, and thats assuming the fountain isn't RNG'd into some awful location.
- Dracula is maybe viable, but certainly his matchup is a 3 or a 4 out of 10.
- Twins is not viable, you do not have time to keep switching back and forth between victor and the survivors can stay in groups of 2 to completely counter your power.
- Wesker is not viable at high level play, his power is very ineffectively at most loops, so get looped at shack for 3 gens i guess?
- Maybe billy, again a 3 or 4 out of 10 matchup. Crouch tech is still in the game making it extremely difficult to hit anything against good survivors, but the instadown capability does make it possible for him to snowball very quickly. Still a much more difficult match for him than the survivors.
- Come on now "leave the loop" artist?
- Oni? He has no power, just predrop pallets and good job you do 5 gens before he even lands a hit.
- Pinhead? The only thing he has going for him is the box which is super easy to deal with as a coordinated team. You realize that the power itself basically gains you 0 distance right? And the only thing you can use it at is looops?
- Ghoul is probably viable, although the latest nerfs definitely push him lower. It will be something that i think after people get months and years of practice with him where they don't need to break pallets anymore, then he might hit that point. But it remains to be seen on that.
The point is, take literally the best killer player of each killer in the entire world. And pit them up against even like a top 1000 team of 4 survivors and have them play 10 matches in a row. Lets pretend its on a map that is perfectly fair, and RNG is completely removed.
Out of those killers, i would suspect most killers get less than 1 or 2 wins, with only nurse, blight, and ghoul potentially reaching a 50% win rate, with nurse having a chance at a >50% win rate. And a handful of others getting maybe 3 wins out of it. That's a big problem, and is why you see people complaining that everyone is playing the same killers.
- Spirit is still good though
- Sigu has plenty of good play
- I main plague/artist now and you are crazy thinking she isnt viable.
- Dracula has traversal, antiloop, good catch up, hes a great killer.
- Twins in low and high MMR was just shown in the top 5 kill rates so no, they are viable, and excel at this game
Stopping your list maybe its true about YOU for all these things but definetely not in general. You say artist you just run away from a loop and your fine… wesker isnt viable…
Maybe you are just a nurse PURE and you try to play these killers you have little experience on and think they are all terrible?You have to branch out of nurse, as well as play survivor from the looks of it
-
@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923699#Comment_3923699
Absolutely yes, good sir/madam.
6 perk slot killers would break the game regardless of their power or not. Its such a joke that meyers was even in one of these suggestions as well.
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@TieBreaker said:
Tweaking Nurse and Blight hasn't really impacted their strength too much. I think the devs should try using a new system to help balance out the cast. Something like reduced or extended perk slots. Killers like Nurse and Blight get two or three, and killers like Trapper and Myers get six or something.
I think it's time the devs try something new to achieve killer balance.
Absolutely no
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Already touched on what they should do in here at least for starters:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923290#Comment_3923290 -
Lotta reasons for it. Ill list a few
1) Teammate is afk
2) Someone is intentionally throwing since they didnt get their way
3) Someone is hiding to abandon their teammates and get hatch with a key
4) Someone loading in with perks (no mither for example and dying in 2 seconds) (adept attempts as well)
5) Tunneling/camping unreasonably
6) Playing a killer/addon that someone doesnt like (for good or bad reasons)
7) Having no throttle for your opponents (matchmaking is broken after all)
8) Map balance
9) Killer working with other survivors because they dont like your playstyle/perks(havent hooked you all round but you did gens/saves/heals)
Some from the survivors POV some from the killers POV. This is by no means and exhaustive list either rather keep it as short as I can though. -
If a match isnt lost 3v1 at the start of the match the killer is either extremely new or not that great at the game.
3v1 isnt really worth playing out at 5 gens, its not the way the game is even balanced or meant to be played.
Again its fun to punish people and waste their time if they want to throw, but you arent doing it just to the person on the ground. There is no good option here unfortunately.
Match is just dead when it happens, sucks but its true. -
Eh… you are just wasting everyone elses time. Like I get why people do it in the moment, but macro wise you really shouldnt.
3v1 is just over when someone does that so you can either have 3v1 where the match is over or 4v1 with one person just on the ground.
Teammates will throw themselves to try to pick them up as well which will waste more time as well and possibly ruin their own experience.
People gotta think big picture rather than in the moment. You arent punishing just 1 person when you do this. -
This is what we get—>
This is what we had —>
Wild berry does taste better thats for sure -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923386#Comment_3923386
That's what I'm talking about.
The only reason you'd disqualify Pig as an M2 killer is because her M2 isn't very good (though it's also not that bad these days either)… but that's not a commentary about what her power does or how it's designed, it's just commentary about how strong she is. Pig is, by some definitions, pretty unambiguously a weak M2 killer.
I'd personally call her a hybrid because of how Ambush is designed, like Demogorgon, but it is an M2 damaging power. People insist on M1 being weak and M2 being strong, but there are examples in this game of the opposite in both cases.
Oh no I dont engage with the whole m1 and m2 power difference narrative. People tend to use m1 as some sort of excuse for playstyles.
Even back when sadako 2.0 was happening with afk global condemn people were trying to say "but shes just an m1 killer" as if it was fair what was happening and, rightfully nerfed.
M1s have different strengths for sure and builds too :D
Pigs m2 you usually use half the power to fake doing it, thats about as far as it gets. Ironically they needed to add more distance to it with her last update, its not enough distance or fast enough. Maybe remove the crouch requirement entirely idk… -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923378#Comment_3923378
That's not actually all that insane. Part of her power is a damaging special attack, by some definitions she absolutely is an M2 killer.
If she's an M1 killer, then someone like Demogorgon should also be considered an M1 killer. More realistically, you could also consider the two hybrids, since they have meaningful access to M1 and M2 attacks they'd realistically switch between.
The only way Pig being an M2 killer seems outright ridiculous is if you insist on a framing where M1 killers are weaker and M2 killers are stronger, but that's not really represented in the game right now. Pinhead, Singularity, and Spirit are unambiguously M1 killers and they're also still quite strong, one of them being either a former or current S tier depending on who you ask.
I think its from people who see something on paper and think she constantly is in the crouch and m2 state when its not something you even use and rare can get to connect.
You have the option but you would number 1 be slower than base speed most of the round. And number 2 youll miss it most of the time as survivors can just run away when they hear the growl.
Demo plays completely different though. Dash killer that can zone, break pallets, distant hits, rather than pig where she has to crouch, lose all her speed, still has to play around pallets, and doesnt cover any distance. -
Someone thinking pig as an m2 killer lol thats where we are at right now