ChuckingWong
ChuckingWong
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497021#Comment_3497021
She legit ignores the hook mechanics
Any killer with high mobility can ignore hook mechanics. Nurse and Blight do this all the time. Instead of hooking, they just aim to down everyone, and once everyone is on the floor then they hook them all. This is not something unique to Onryō, and I've only encountered a couple of Onryōs since the rework who have actually attempted it. Most I've seen just go for hooks as normal.
ignores any form of generator slow down perks
I don't understand what you mean by this. Do you mean slowdown perks don't work on her or they work too well on her?
just slug/tunnels
Tunnelling is not an efficient use of the new Onryō's power. You want to get stacks on everyone to slow the game down rather than just focusing on one person. Not to mention, she is still just an M1 killer. She has no chase power and can be looped. If you try tunneling anyone who is decent at chasing, you're going to struggle.
Any killer with high mobility can ignore hook mechanics. Nurse and Blight do this all the time. Instead of hooking, they just aim to down everyone, and once everyone is on the floor then they hook them all. This is not something unique to Onryō, and I've only encountered a couple of Onryōs since the rework who have actually attempted it. Most I've seen just go for hooks as normal.Nurse and blight do not ignore hook mechanics that is completely false. Noone loads up the match and try's to 4 slug and THEN hook, you realize how difficult that is? And even if thats the case, they had to hook you.
If you mean slug 4 seperate people and wait for bleed out that is even more difficult given nurse and blight have no way to find out where the other survivors are or instant mori you. Sadako can. Every single match has been the same, I've seen a couple hooks because it was the last two survivors and the match was over.
I don't understand what you mean by this. Do you mean slowdown perks don't work on her or they work too well on her?Ignores slow down perks as in she doesnt care about gen progression. She can just take ALL information perks.
Tunnelling is not an efficient use of the new Onryō's power. You want to get stacks on everyone to slow the game down rather than just focusing on one person. Not to mention, she is still just an M1 killer. She has no chase power and can be looped. If you try tunneling anyone who is decent at chasing, you're going to struggle.Tunneling out the first fully condemned survivor, which is relatively quick, and then the game is over. All you have to do is zone them out and they cant do anything. Even around killer shack with another pallet gym right out the door it does not matter. M1 hits happen in games im not sure why people keep repeating this argument, as its nonsense. Noone here is a tournament level player, you get hit by M1's. You think plague never hits anyone once all her fountains are used up or has no reasonable access to it? Shes worse at chase then onryo by the way.
Also if you care for that kill rate chart, which to some extent we should. She was fine before the rework. She now just has this huge, unreasonable buff now, to the rate of her condemn. It needs to be dialed back a bit. I get interacting with a killer mechanic is fine, I am on board with that.
But the match becomes ENTIRELY about tapes at several points in the match. And that is the problem with her. Her teleport (10s cd) spam, TV availability.. encourages her to just slug and tunnel.
And if you run comb/ iri tape it just becomes so broken you may as well load up and say I win before every match.
Edit: Whats the function to quote different sentences?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497239#Comment_3497239
both are in the game so I imagine both will be staying.
So because one, obnoxiously broken thing is in the game. Another, obnoxiously broken thing should be in the game?
K then
Yea I think they should just come out with another version of the 3 gen camping skull merchant. Its in the game already right? So no problem, we should get another.
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Yea theres no way she is staying the way she currently is.
She legit ignores the hook mechanics, ignores any form of generator slow down perks, and just slug/tunnels so she can mori everyone without getting a single hook stage.
Teleport spam (10s cooldown), and just hit a few M1's....
This is not intended game mechanics by any stretch
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@Prosecutor said:
In theory the guide, posted above is very good. In practice there are multiple obstacles preventing you from taking a tape in the first place:
The number of tvs on a map is limited, additionally you can only get tape from a powered tv, and other survivors will be looking for the tape as well, however, as not all survivors read the patch notes some survivors will be taking a tape and then putting it back in other tvs disabling other tvs. Plus the killer is teleporting meanwhile disabling tvs making it harder to track which ones are turned on and which ones are not. And if you get sent to a terrible map you may have troubles finding them. And there are perks like sloppy butcher that force you to stay injured the whole game because developers decided to nerf self care options tremendously, so killers can simply opt out of chase and run around the map completely stealthy hitting everyone and basically the match is over till this point. Some may argue that these killers tend to be weak, but the killer's power in fact depends on rng and map, if you play survivor and you get send to midwich, dead dawg's saloon or yamaoka you are very very very likely to be dead already
Oh yeah that illustration was made and even the author of it has since said it doesn't work out like that.
Stuff will happen to her, she badly needs to be nerfed. Sadako is turning into the next killer to encourage DCing or give up on hook (if she even chooses to hook you).
Just gotta wait for whatever is put out.
The current system, she just slugs/tunnels and then the game is over without having to worry about gen progress or hook stages.
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I think the first priority is getting her to the hooks. Currently she is encouraged to slug and tunnel with no hook stages in the current version of her.
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@ChaosWam said:
As a Sadako main:
- Reduce tape-slap to 1 condemn stack
- When you lose a tape, you have 10-15 seconds of condemn immunity so she can't start building more onto you immediately.
- Full condemned is an instant down, and ONLY a Mori on death hook
Yea i kinda like this sort of approach. Has a psuedo mori only on death hook like pyramid head as well
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495769#Comment_3495769
Are you talking about that one hens vid in youtube? that "Best survivors" who decided not to use BNP or stacked perks for some reason? it only took 55 minutes because killer decided to use best thing while survivors decide not to, it wouldn't took more than 15 minutes if survivors were serious.
Not gonna say it's balanced because there is BNP or potential energy, but using that as argument is quite misleading.
The 15 minute guess you posted is all speculation. Thats not what happened, and thats just what if. It's a bit off topic to go into the specifics of why I used this example but its a great comparison.
A high skill floor to counter (3 gen camping SM against average surivors), and a large skill ceiling for the 3 gen camping SM to do well against survivors who play well (as seen in the video). It can almost be said about any killer in the game but...
If we want to talk about the specific's we can private message, I would rather keep this post on topic though. Thank you!
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@WiseTraveler said:
@ChuckingWong Picking up tapes isn't even a question it's objectively the smartest play to do at the start of the match. I understand not taking a hit while holding a tape can be difficult against even the most moderate players. But it's better to hold a tape for over 40 seconds than get teleported on 4 times. Not to mention how easy it is to remove condemnation with ANY tv. Yes, you can argue about how Iri tape and comb is really strong. But then that's a bhvr decision issue because if the add-ons are strong then bhvr should have made something different. The worse part is bhvr had the opportunity to make better add-ons. they claimed that they made an add-on pass that brought the strongest add-ons and the weakest to the middle. If anything Iri tape is still strong and there are so many add-ons that they could have added. Not to mention they nerfed Reiko's watch an add-on that takes skill in order to get full value from it.
I wanna thank you for your suggestion because I asked for some suggestions at the very end of my post. Changing more of the add-ons would be a great idea because you can barely call the add-on pass they made an add-on pass. They claimed they would bring the strongest and weakest add-ons to the middle yet Iri tape is still strong and they only changed around 5 add-ons leaving a lot of the add-ons still unused because they're not as practical. Almost all of Wesker's add-ons are practical in one way or another and bhvr should strive to make more add-ons like Weskers. Plus these changes give so much more opportunity for unique add-ons that change the way condemn could work. Maybe slowing teleports will be better for the Solo queue sure. But it still doesn't address the fact that when all tapes are being held, and removed at the right times when needed, her power is overwhelmingly weak.
Oh yeah the wombo combo. Comb and Iri tape...
It's like there is no other option. Why give up that amount of information? I dont think its fair for the survivors to have to traverse the map if they are in trouble, WITH TELEPORTATION lol, and you just know the entire way through start to finish what has to happen. Its like you have 5 stacks of devour and aura read and just go do the deed when you feel like it.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495769#Comment_3495769
that is just unfair map design for survivor. maps should be big enough that gen spread is not so tight and survivors should learn to play better towards 3 gen type perks. this whole shrinking of maps and the killer being forced to 3 gen is not healthy for the game in terms of fun factor. the goal of the game should be more oriented to fun. 3 gen camping is like opposite of interesting and fun gameplay.
Definietely map/ gen placement can help. Agree.
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@WiseTraveler said:
@ChuckingWong Picking up tapes isn't even a question it's objectively the smartest play to do at the start of the match. I understand not taking a hit while holding a tape can be difficult against even the most moderate players. But it's better to hold a tape for over 40 seconds than get teleported on 4 times. Not to mention how easy it is to remove condemnation with ANY tv. Yes, you can argue about how Iri tape and comb is really strong. But then that's a bhvr decision issue because if the add-ons are strong then bhvr should have made something different. The worse part is bhvr had the opportunity to make better add-ons. they claimed that they made an add-on pass that brought the strongest add-ons and the weakest to the middle. If anything Iri tape is still strong and there are so many add-ons that they could have added. Not to mention they nerfed Reiko's watch an add-on that takes skill in order to get full value from it.
I wanna thank you for your suggestion because I asked for some suggestions at the very end of my post. Changing more of the add-ons would be a great idea because you can barely call the add-on pass they made an add-on pass. They claimed they would bring the strongest and weakest add-ons to the middle yet Iri tape is still strong and they only changed around 5 add-ons leaving a lot of the add-ons still unused because they're not as practical. Almost all of Wesker's add-ons are practical in one way or another and bhvr should strive to make more add-ons like Weskers. Plus these changes give so much more opportunity for unique add-ons that change the way condemn could work. Maybe slowing teleports will be better for the Solo queue sure. But it still doesn't address the fact that when all tapes are being held, and removed at the right times when needed, her power is overwhelmingly weak.
Oh yea.
What I meant for "not as simple as picking up a tape" and thats it. Is that it goes back to the non-swf portion of it, really the part everyone agrees on its hard!
Just one example: You can sandbag your teammates unknowingly by taking a tape because you needed it. But hey my teammate needed it more, and I didnt know they were going to the same TV as me. Crap, now I put them in danger.
The comb/ iri tape. Its just too powerful, to the point where its... no other option? Pretty much? Like why give up that ammount of information on such a powerful ability? You know where the survivor is and has to go to turn in the tape, so it just becomes a matter of when you feel like you want to mori. Im not sure what they should do with those addons but they are currently, the only option it seems.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
The only thing should be nerfed is her Mother's Comb. They should rework this add-on.
Except that, i don't see any issue with her. Sadako is fine.
I think also the iridescent tape. You know where the survivor has to go to turn it in and you can just camp it out if they have high condemn and they are out of options.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495727#Comment_3495727
it is not busted. it has high skill-floor to counter and large skill-ceiling for sadako to well IF their opponent plays well. If your opponent plays bad, you do not need do well as killer to win.
I could literally repeat what you just said but about the 3 gen camping Skull Merchant. How is a 3 gen skull merchant not busted given it held, arguably the best survivors in the world, in a match for 55 minutes?
Takes a high skill floor to counter and a high skill ceiling for the SM to do well if their opponent plays well.
Some things need to be changed that arent balanced properly.
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Well the slugging portion is advantageous because what I posted. Its probably why, every match against one, they are doing it.
Her current power level against non-coordination solo players is really the only problem with her current setup. It's not as simple as "pick up a tape" and thats it.
And yea its all up to the survivors, and thats true pretty much of every killer. Except the other killers have to hook you, where she does not.
I see comparisons sometimes or what abouts with the Pig. Pig somewhat can slug you but it doesnt carry the same advantage because she only can trap you once. As well as not progressing while in chase, on the ground, on the hook. Its not a fair comparison. Her power behaves in a completely different way.
I think for the majority of the player base, Sadako could use... maybe a higher cd to her teleport? A rework of, a now completely broken, iridecent tape and the comb... Just something, because you really stand no chance without a group against her.
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@WiseTraveler said:
The new Sadako rework has made condemnation a main point of her power. In these changes, it allows Sadako to spread condemnation way easier, whilst also being very easy to counter.
These new changes have made Sadako a Public Match Stomper to solo queue and incompetent survivors who don't understand her power.
- Let's get into why Sadako is so harsh in solo queue
- Lack of communication - While playing against Sadako keeping track of where the killer can be is difficult and hard to communicate with teammates about where she went and what TVs have been used. This leads to survivors making mistakes on where to go to be safe and where to go find a tape to try to lose condemnation.
- Global condemnation - Global condemnation had made it easier for the Onyro to make Condemnation a big part of her kit but it's caused survivors issues in keeping themselves from being fully condemned. The lack of communication is part of this but when all four survivors are near max condemnation. It becomes even more difficult for teams to organize and stop condemnation of the whole group. Global condemnation on survivors who don't understand this type of pressure will have to focus on condemnation as an objective to try not to get instantly killed out of the match.
- Now that we have discussed why Solo Queue has an issue with the condemnation and managing tapes, let's get into how strong the tapes are in countering Sadako.
- Tapes are Sheilds to Teleport condemnation - When grabbing a tape it stops the flow of condemn from teleports, by itself on one survivor it's okay to have it like a shield. But when all survivors have tapes it's a complete barrier to Sadako and doesn't allow her to ease her way into getting a condemned kill.
- Grabbing tapes turn off TVs - When grabbing a tape the TV you grabbed from gets turned off for a longer period than it would if Sadako teleported through it. This is good to have a counter play but when it all stacks up it objectively makes Sadako into an M1 killer with a weak teleport that can be turned off.
When both of these are combined it forms a really strong counter that can skill cap your killer power.
- So now we have a double edge sword one side makes Sadako really strong and the other makes the killer feel like you can do nothing with your power. This makes Sadako really polar and the strength of her lies in the hands of Survivor's decisions.
This makes it very difficult to balance this killer because if you make a buff to Sadako to have a chance against the best of the best then public matches will be even tougher against Sadako, and if you nerf her then Sadako will have no chance against the best of the best. Then the casual players will have a greater experience.
With the counter being so strong I believe that no killer in the game should have their skill expression taken away. All killers should have a chance to beat the most competent survivors in the game with the skill that they have accumulated over time.
I believe that both sides should have a fighting chance to win without feeling like they can do nothing.
- This leaves me with one final question
- What do we do to make sure that Solo Queue doesn't get completely steamrolled but also makes it so that Sadako can use her skill to win the game against the very best survivors?
Nothing should be, and rightfully is not, balanced at the SWF level. It is a broken version of this game that a few select survivors play, and they know how busted it is.
Why do you think in tournaments, score is given based on hook stages and not just kills? And perk/item stacking is restricted? And a whole bunch of other parameters are given?
Outside of SWF the current version of Sadako, is pretty busted. You literally cannot get a gen done and have to constantly do the TV mechanic. And even if you do, you'll just get spotted eventually and slugged.
And then the non communication/non-coordination disadvantage game begins. Where everyone swarms to your body that she is currently proxy camping, lets you get up only to slug the others that are carrying tapes, while you frantically look for .... wait for it... a TV.
It just becomes a match all about the TV mechanic and nothing else. Sadako, herself doesn't even need to hook anyone, preferably so as well. Why waste the time it takes to hook someone when you can just make a "slug trap" for the non swf players.
Its something that needs to be looked at.
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1: Ah yea totally. You know I think TV's definitely spawn at each individual survivors feet at the start of the trial. Makes sense to me. Hope she doesn't teleport while you are en route to a TV in your face.
2: Grab the tape, she will find you and then zone you out once she does. And slug you as well
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4: Congratz you just played into her hand. She fully condemned and killed every survivor without getting a single hook stage.
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1: Ah yea totally. You know I think TV's definitely spawn at each individual survivors feet at the start of the trial. Makes sense to me. Hope she doesn't teleport while you are en route to a TV in your face.
2: Grab the tape, she will find you and then zone you out once she does. And slug you as well
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4: Congratz you just played into her hand. She fully condemned and killed every survivor without getting a single hook stage.
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Its not just solo players. Shes killing teams, without even getting hook stages.
Theres no doubt she will be addressed, her current mechanics are not intended
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Currently she does not need to interact with the hooks at all.
The two silliest arguments I have seen so far, have to be trolling at this point.
"Just find a tape at the start bro"
"Just dont get hit bro"
Yea ok, all 4 survivors at the start of the match, wait for the TV's to turn on, all be seperate, and grab a tape. Right yea, all the TV's just spawn at the survivors feet or are within 10 seconds of the starting spawns /s
Hope she NEVER gets a single hit off in a match... Lmfao what an argument to make.
Hope she doesnt teleport in your face, or is near when you grab one, making you instantly lose the tape and adding 2 condemn.
This only gets worse with her add-ons.
Someone at the start, realistically multiple someones, will not have a tape in their hands, so she will get a couple of teleports off, and then find someone who took a tape to slow down her condemn, and start the process of zoning them out and eventually killing them without even getting a single hook stage.
And chances are if you get downed but not full condemned she will leave you there and proxy camp you, so she can start the process on the other survivors.
This is going to change, it's not even remotely considered fair game play. Nothing in this game, including blight, is this imbalanced.
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Bro the current Onryo changes are broken af. People are getting 4/5 genned with no hook stages at the moment within the first few minutes of the match.
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Just happened to me as well in a match. At this point its a known issue it seems. Reported the person, they know they are exploiting the bug
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Im already stepping away from this game. It seems they just want to pander more and more to survivors, there is no argument anymore the game is literally tailor made for them, they are safe AT ALL TIMES.
Until a 3rd health state is out of this game, it's just gonna remain uninstalled.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338633#Comment_3338633
And with your suggested changes, you basically are asking for old Dead Hard which is weird because y'all complained about it until it got nerfed. Now you want it back?
Also really too much power that gets rid of a mistake when most of the time you can literally wait it out? But if we want to talk about mistake removing, let's bring up the bloodlust mechanic and how easy it is to bloodlust around tiles.
Let's not sit here and whine about how perks remove mistakes acting as if a majority of the meta perks and perks in general are intended to remedy a misplay.
And since we're bringing up irrelevant talking points in the argument, I find it fitting a person with a Nurse PFP is complaining about DH. It's almost as ironic as a person with a Feng PFP saying killers need to be nerfed
Im pretty sure some of your posts are about to be edited or removed lets not be combative or insulting to each other. The nurse thing you brought up... yea I main it not sure what that has anything to do with DH. Lets not focus on the character I play in game rather the perk DH ok? If anything DHing a nurse is easier than every other killer... And she was just massively nerfed as well.
But thats neither here nor there lets focus on DH alright?
Im not asking for old DH at all the massive lunge or, "dash" as they worded, it had was too much. Just keep its base lunge it has currently and then work from there if needed. Either remove its endurance effect, or make it so you cant use pallets windows after using it for X seconds. Or cannot use DH when you are within X meters of pallets/windows.
Something along those lines.
Currently survivors are just TOO safe when they are near windows or pallets that they should not beable to deadhard into and laugh. We all can agree on that one.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338535#Comment_3338535
You are aware perks don't get kill switched simply because they're too good right? Perks only get kill switched because it actually messes up the game like that infinite killer aura bug or the wake up crashing killer lobbies. Simply because you don't like something isn't grounds for the perk to be kill switched if it's working as intended
Obviously, dont be purposefully obtuse.
Im just saying my ideal DBD world you should not have a third health state, and if you do then you need to balance the game for having access to it. Currently survivors complain about camping/tunneling and eruption/cob aka kicking gens (kinda funny that one huh?). But nah dead hard is fair.
Too much power is provided with it. Which is why most survivors run it. Its laughable what you can do to extend mistakes you make or even just extend already too long chases with safe T/L walls or pallet gyms.
Just something needs to happen with it. Make it a lunge only but not an endurance effect. Or make it so you cant interact with objects within X meters.
Give us a reason to chase anyone for an extended duration. Currently there is no reason to bother. Ill just wait for you guys to come to me.
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Something has gotta happen to it.
Having 3 health states in the current game is too much to ask for killers. You are too safe next to windows and pallets. Maybe make those not useable for... 30 seconds? after you use the perk ?
Id just kill switch the perk entirely at this point, but something has to happen to it. Im just gonna keep camping and tunneling whenever I see it. No reason to stay in chase for 2minutes+ and get a down while 4 gens are now done.