ChuckingWong
ChuckingWong
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Heh feel a LITTLE bit less terrible for maining nurse when I did.
I swapped it for maining plague though so idk.
Here's why stats, at least the ones that were released, aren't reliable for really anything.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650211#Comment_3650211
Just because it doesn’t happen a majority of the time doesn’t make it ok.
Yea but asking for changes to the game based on those types of players, knowing full well they do not represent anywhere near the majority of the player base, is silly.
You'd have more people quit the game then stay.
Im pretty decent at survivor but nowhere near as good as comp teams. And I would leave the game if they just insist on creating nurse after nurse after nurse. Wouldn't you agree?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650186#Comment_3650186
Not at all. I win most of my matches because, as I said, most people aren’t good at the game. Unlike the lower bracket killers though, I run into the sweat/SWF groups more than the average player does. That’s when the game’s imbalance is on display.
Noone in this game runs into comp swfs a majority of the time.
Not even people with more hours than several of us combined and play this game as a career, run into comp SWF's a majority of the time.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649645#Comment_3649645
It's because this game caters to Survivors so hard. For years now, they think they can dictate how Killers play.
They use insulting labels like 'scummy' and 'sweaty', 'toxic' and 'tryhard', and label efficient tactics with negative names like 'tunneling', 'camping', 'proxy camping' (Seriously; When they could not whine someone was 'camping', they made up a new term), and 'slugging'.
It also shifts blame away from them playing like trash onto the Killer for 'using scummy tactics'.
It's all done in an attempt to control the Killer role and enforce more changes on the game. Because "Tunneling/Camping/Slugging/etc. is a problem" is much more convincing than "Change the game because I lost."
Both can be true though. I dont think anyone is trying to take away it being efficient from your POV.
Trying to pass it off as the ONLY way to play is peoples problem with it. Tunneling/camping is a strategy used by the majority of killers but it's not because it's the only way to win or secure kills. It just so happens to be the easiest thing to do and extremely hard to counter on the survivors end in pub matches. You can come up with a decent scenario where it might not work in the killers favor, but those scenario's are very rare/not viable for public matches.
You have to think of it in terms of the survivors end as well,
Its not a fun thing to do, sitting on the hook for the majority of the game and have the killer ONLY target you, im pretty sure most of, if not everyone, can agree with that. You would like some room to actually play the game.
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@I_Tunnel said:
Apparently now 'going back to the hook' is 'scummy'.
You heard it here, Killers; Going back to where you know 2 Survivors are is scummy, and we should all stop doing it! Survivors deserve to freely heal directly under the hook! 😂
I mean it really is, and its unnecessary for the most part. Against comp teams, the massive minority of your matches, it might be necessary. Still not really convinced on this one as I have had my fair share of SWF p100 sweat squads and I didnt do this type of playstyle, granted I lost some as well, but also won. But I would say I am in the minority for this type of play style, I prefer to just ignore most unhook noise notifications, unless its blatantly in my face sure.
Its very easy to say "well if I had tunneled..." when you could reflect a be a bit more observant. You see this if you record your gameplay. "well if I had pressured that side of the map..." "pressured that gen more...." "not chased that one at that point"
If you play like this then you have the tunnel playstyle going, which yea, you will be playing for unhook notifications. You dont really have another option as this is how you decide to play/win. It's extremely unfun and pretty scummy on the survivors end. You definitely dont have to play like this to win in nearly every pub match you join.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649195#Comment_3649195
The issues I’m talking about have been around since I started playing. There is no learning or adapting to connected, safe tiles, second chance perks, and generally bad map design. DBD has core issues that, rather than being addressed, have been made worse. If you are the best chaser in the world, it will still take too long to down survivors before gens get done since they get a speed boost and have a thick concentration of pallets and tiles.
Dont seem to have any problems on my side.
Im guessing most of this feeling is over-representation of competitive SWF matches that killer players hardly encounter but do struggle/lose against. You gotta remember that you win nearly every single other match. Its very rare that you are gonna get dunked on by SoloQ.
Not even the people who play this as a career run into comp teams often. So us normies definitely dont. Maybe youll have a bad round here or there and maybe youll get a map that isnt so favorable.
More often than not though, you just stomp as a killer in this game.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648609#Comment_3648609
They're in for a treat when they get thrown back into the regular game with inflated MMR due to them playing this killer sided event, and getting pwnt lol.
Wait for it, there's gonna be a buncha posts complaining how OP survivor is in the regular mode once they can't tunnel and have the gen aura hold their hand as well as it does in lights out.
Yea unfortunately/fortunately your MMR wont change based on any results in lights out. I threw a bunch of games that I two hooked everyone, which thankfully wont effect my MMR.
But the tunnel/camp guys ... yea nothing will happen to them.
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Nothing I already didnt know about the majority of the killer player base.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648473#Comment_3648473
I did read. I read the whole thread. The only part of your post I take issue with is I don't see this player decline. 14 months of a very stable player base that shifts around 30'000 is not a decline.
However a big portion of my post was not aimed at you. I was more responded to a lot of the rest of the thread, that seemed to jump on the chance to spin their own narrative, despite having no, or at best extremely flimsy evidence to support it.
In answering your question directly see this post above:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648419#Comment_3648419
The 'dip' in the player base falls quite in line with the end of lockdown, particularly in the US, and it remains very stable after that.
Oh yeah the OP knows.
OP failed at a bait and a gotcha its kinda funny🤣
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@ImWinston said:
Taking Steam data, the player base continues to decline. I know Steam doesn't count consoles and I'm not saying dbd is dying. But why?
The game is much more balanced now than 2-3 years ago, killers are very solid and viable (except for a few), there are many balanced maps (except for a few), many "broken" strategies no longer exist...
In theory the player base should increase and not decrease.
Some people will now say "there are no new game modes"... "lights out" had literally no effect on player numbers.
your opinions?
It really is not.
https://steamcharts.com/app/381210
Nothing here suggesting anything declining wise. Same patterns for summer/holidays
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647824#Comment_3647824
Good thing that I can tell you that you will not go against as many competitive SWF as you think you are. You are probably going against no competitive SWF at all. Only because you lose a game does not mean your opponents were a bunch of comp-players.
Oh no I dont do this, I dont care about my opponents party play or not, I am just giving a solution for the people that do. When I say give me a reason im not specifically saying me hehe.
100% competitive SWF teams are such a minority of your matches yes. It is still a broken version of this game and I was just giving an idea out there.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Step 1: Decides to be nice and fair Killer, don't want to slug, camp, tunnel even at exit gates / Decides to do some random build or meme build on a Killer.
Step 2: Get unfun match where Survivors just tbagg you all game or tbagg you at exits and make fun of you in end game chat or say "gg" when you clearly didn't have a good game at all.
Step 3: Get frustraited and decides to be serious and wants to win. Bring best add-ons, good killer and mori / map offering to your liking and plays the most optimaly, don't care about anyones fun and just tryhards the match. Ignores Survivors who want to give up or meme with you, just hook and kill them all.
Step 4: You get your 3-4K probably and now I feel bad and mean and felt it was not fair from me and decides to do step 1.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9Y80BPDGSTYL/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VODGWQDLLL5H/image.png
I know it's not fair to go next game and be mean to new people that did nothing to you but you feel allready injured from previous game and don't want that to happend again and they can't tbag you or talk bad on you when they all lose and you try your best but you also feel bad, etc.
Yea Idk I would start looking at things a bit more macro than micro. I guarantee you the majority of your matches, if you play nice that is, survivors are happy. You'll get the usual one or two cranky people but so what. Ive played about.... 30-40 lights out matches as nurse and, besides one match of 2 people saying I was wall hacking lol, everyone was happy! Ive had very good end game chat in lights out at least.
One match out of 30-40, pfft, I dont even think about it! Dont stress
Just be sure for "nice" you are being honest with yourself as well.
Ie:
Not tunnel
Not proxy camp hooks
Not rush back to the hook the moment someone is unhooked
Not camp a 3 gen
And of course not use toxic broken addons/killers/grim embroke.. and if you do, recognize that and say something in end game chat if you feel like it. Or let some of the survivors go!
"Yea I know Black incense on plague is broken, I feel dirty"
"Nurse is still so busted"
"Yea grim embrace is literally worse than old eruption"
Not saying you dont, but try to analyze your own game play and how that might feel if you were playing as survivor.
Hope this helps!
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It really is not.
Have hours of footage that say otherwise.
https://www.twitch.tv/questionmarkkony
Not tunneling, not camping the hook, not going after hook saves, not using an information killer
Every single match was a 3/4k but I let many of them go.
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Killers already cherry pick their lobbies. So that argument doesnt really hold any weight.
Regardless though,
Competitive SWF is a broken version of this game. I get that you want to dick around with party play with friends as well, so to normalize both the people who just play with friends, and the sweat hard 4 mans, if you would like me to stay, give me a reason to stay.
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I would suggest just putting up a notification in the lobby screen of whos in whos group that the killer can see. And then giving BP incentive (extra 50-100% or something) if they decide to stay.
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Base kit aura read?
No thanks to either side.
Lights out mode has potential, just needs a bit of tweaks/changes so survivors can actually enjoy themselves.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646936#Comment_3646936
i'm sorry but there is absolutely no way you have at least 1k killer hours and didn't see ANY offensive bt bodyblock. i guess you can be using bbq and instantly run off to the auras you see, disregarding any survivor you might see closeby going like "i don't want you i have my bbq auras". because more often than not, you will get to hang around the hook if you take that chase since most survivors don't understand macro and loop you around hook, or just (try to) farm the person.
Well I have 1400 hours on this game, not really sure what the split is. Started playing it as a killer, generally play it more but try to play some survivors to change the play up.
I see offensive bt bodyblocks all the time. Granted the majority of cases like I said is because some killer wants to force an unhook and the only thing to protect the unhooker from them camping (majority of cases) is bt. That or bt is just blatantly disregarded and the killer tunnels the save off the hook.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646707#Comment_3646707
surely it's only black and white and there can be no abuse of 10 seconds of endurance in any case, right? it's not a board game, brother. play both sides and see for yourself what actually can happen and what cannot then come and comment on matters please.
I do play both sides and you can take a look at some recent gameplay for proof, ill provide a link. Theres no need to assume someone does not play both sides of the game or say "your just a typical X main" which was removed it seems. And if we are getting technical, I prefer not to play survivor because of events happening on stream today... and ... just in general. It takes a bit of mental preparation in terms of expectations: Like saying to myself "okay just realize you are gonna run into a majority of campers and tunnelers"
Granted this is lights out. https://www.twitch.tv/questionmarkkony
Malding through survivor today as well... and so far 5/10 hook camper matches.(2 of the non hook campers were legion lights out, may as well be just as bad, updating this as I go getting lucky today)
Refer to this for a more clarified answer. As the case for 99.9999% of cases, its because the killer is just camping the hook
@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646725#Comment_3646725
Thats the exception not the rule. This is a mistake on the survivors end and I wouldn't put that as proof of "yea just blame killers."
And if it's not a mistake I could just as easily say in response, "yea hes bringing you to the hook, noone else is saving their teammate and his stage 2 meter is about to run out"
I dont think we should paint the worst situation for something that is pretty obviously not the most common reason for an endurance body block at the hook.
Generally what happens is, at least what I have observed in 99.9999999% of situations involving an endurance body block AT the hook no less. Is a killer is forcing an unhook with a price of another survivor. As in camping the hook, forcing a trade. No safe unhooks allowed. You can see this AD nasuem in the new game mode if you load up survivors.
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Thats the exception not the rule. This is also a mistake on the survivors end and I wouldn't put that as proof of "yea just blame killers."
And if it's not a mistake I could just as easily say in response, "yea hes bringing you to the hook, noone else is saving their teammate and his stage 2 meter is about to run out"
I dont think we should paint the worst situation for something that is pretty obviously not the most common reason for an endurance body block at the hook.
Generally what happens is, at least what I have observed in 99.9999999% of situations involving an endurance body block AT the hook no less. Is a killer is forcing an unhook with a price of another survivor. As in camping the hook, forcing a trade. No safe unhooks allowed. You can see this AD nasuem in the new game mode if you load up survivors.
Blinds, stuns, body blocks, and hook denials I don't have a problem with. If you wanna bring your flashies/sabo, by all means. I know that I wont get that a majority of the matches and ... no one does. Not even 9k hour streamers who play this game as a job do.
Does it suck if you get that? Kinda? Not really. After the first blind, if you managed to get blinded you dont really get it again. And Sabo plays are really hard to pull off that end up failing most of the time. Body blocking at the hook happens, but again, usually fails.
Tunneling though, is something that is just rampant. I recently kept a log of survivor play on 10 matches in the new lights out mode and it was 9/10 waiting around the hook simulator. And then commenced tunneling. Have a bunch of killer footage from today will probably do survivor tomorrow once I mentally prepare myself.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646707#Comment_3646707
Yeah it’s not really fun going against a killer that doesn’t want to engage the game outside of hook chasing. It’s highly effective, for low effort. So gen simulator it is bc they’re not applying pressure outside the hook area ofc they’re mad. Low risk and mostly high reward for the killer. I’m never “mad” at people out patrolling gens after hooking when I just so happen to be found twice in a row.
Then again I’m not really mad anymore anyways after playing this game for years it’s just a game, and there’s probably better decisions I could have made, learn from it and move on, and just hope the team was making the best of the time towards objective progress sometimes they are sometimes they aren’t, that’s not on the killer though.
Yea I mean at the end of the day all we can do is take the killer role into our own hands and dont play like that. I get plenty of win's without doing it, and I value my opponents time.
This is why I am a bit more biased towards survivors because I see the stuff they go through.
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Tunneling?
Short of making survivors invulnerable I really dont know. Would happen even if we were to slow everything down, most tunnel when they dont even need to, stomping pubs before they get 2 gens done.
Gen rushing?
Incentivizing other options in the map, someone suggested factors with totems I like it, I would love to run around and do more than just gens! Making other objectives maybe so even if you dont escape you could get BP in a similar amount? Sort of like event's where you can do pumpkins but a little more fleshed out.
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@mikewelk said:
This game mode has succesfully allowed us to witness DBD's issues in an amplified manner, as someone mentioned here on the forums. With multiple discussions being formed regarding the unpleasant experiences people have encountered, one thing seems to repeat the most - tunneling. Who would've thought that in a game mode where anti-tunnel perks are non-existent and killers are ENCOURAGED to tunnel (thanks to survivors being stealthy, the whole point of the game mode) that this would happen? Proxy camping is a whole other issue I'm not even going to go into here because it's self-explanatory with no terror radius presence and goes hand in hand with tunneling. Tunneling has stained every experience it touches and nerfing Onryo's tunneling potential does not compensate for this stain. Something more has to be done about this playstyle or there needs to be a new matchmaking system that provides reliable teammates to have games not end up in 3v1's at 3-4 generators every couple of games. I understand that it's a strategy and necessary sometimes, but it shouldn't feel necessary. Mitigate tunneling so that it doesn't ruin just 'one' person's experience (when it affects the entire team) and compensate for it. I don't have a specific idea in mind, but I really want to play old DBD again, where different playstyles were encouraged and it didn't feel stale and mind-numbingly dull to play. Being happy that I'm not getting tunneled or proxy camped shouldn't be a thing, I shouldn't feel forced to run anti-tunneling perks to have a chance at countering such an obnoxious playstyle, I shouldn't be punished for spreading hooks, etc.
Incentives can only do so much so I really don't know what the next steps are here. Tunneling isn't going anywhere until something sufficient will be done. I'm glad this isn't a permanent game mode, but a little reality check where you play a couple of games and then never want to play again since it's that bad. Had high hopes for this game mode, but here we are.
We cant take bad actors as evidence to then say tunneling is encouraged.
In lights out you do not need to be doing this to survivors. This is entirely up to skill/pressure by the killer side.
Here's some raw video and a quick summary I have made on 10 matches I played using, what many consider the weakest killer in lights out Nurse (not sure how much I believe it), not engaging in tunneling, camping, or rushing back to saved survivors. I won every match and only close to "losing" in two games.
First match: Good people, amazing match had fun. Survivors had fun, points to be had. Let em all go
Second match: Some mistakes were made/idk whats going on, claudette hatred maybe? Just wanted the match over to not drag anything out for the rest of the survs. Appologized and went next.
Third match: Good little trio of friends im guessing, killed claud cause she seemed a bit lost rather not waste her time waiting for a slug pick up. Survivors had fun, points to be had, had a slug race. Fengs are too cute!
Fourth match: Maria quick DCed made a decent blink play, understandable if you dont like nurse I get it. Noone went to save the bot, was gonna kill everyone in this match but then the server stopped responding.
Fifth match: Made a gen grab that did a large hickup not sure if the survivor DCed or crashed. Normal match just trying to go next, having a bot on your team sucks I know. They made it to a decent 3 gen though.
Sixth match: Very efficient team, probably because its ormond and easier to find gens, three genned themselves though. Kept running into laurie randomly. Good people, tried to refrain from just locking the gens down. Let them complete it and let the mikaela go.
Seventh match: Very efficient team again, oddly enough with all the down farming at the start. Ended on a good note with some pallets, let em all go. Good stuff, fun fun.
Eighth match: Poor wee Feng, she was not happy at the start, its typical nurse crap I get it. Gave the survivors some blinds, did the match normally got some kills. Hope they had some fun out of it.
Ninth match: Efficient team on lerys very surprising, hard to do as survivors in this mode. I felt bad for Steve and Nancy, they wanted that gen really badly but didnt leave the basement, and I heard them downstairs. Zarina/Mikaela were on point as well. Good survivors!
Tenth match: Played normally, didnt really do anything special. Felt bad for the Alan running into a door, didnt really want a kill like that. Let Feng and him go got some pallets, fun stuff. Good survivors.
Raw game footage 10 games lights out nurse play:
There is an argument to be made if you are facing ONLY coordinated SWF's but that does not happen, streamers with over 9k hours and play this game as a career do not have a majority of coordinated SWF opponents. So this argument quickly falls apart as it is over representing your matches for opponents you will barely face.
In lights out, you have the advantage of survivors not spotting generators as fast and the possibility of grabs/easy hits due to sight and terror radius reductions. This also applies to chases, as they will not be anywhere near as long, not just due to the absence of WoO but because they can't see or identify loops as well.
While this is only 10 matches that have been recorded and some wacky DC stuff has happened, I generally do not see any evidence to say that tunneling was required in any of the situations I was put in for these videos or for any games I havent recorded. Same could be said about camping, and neither is encouraged at all from what I can tell.
Will continue to record gameplay during this event as much as I can, from what I see though, its just horrible people that play killer side that want to tunnel/camp and then justify it for their lack of skill/pressure. As they are using tracking killers such as doctor/legion. Or even worse killers that circumvent vision like meyers/ghost face.
Good luck in your matches.
Remember killers: there are actual living people behind those opponents of yours. You dont need to ruin their day by playing like jerks. And you certainly dont need to play like that to "win".
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Idk...
Outside of playing artist on this map, if you really want to talk about a killer that will struggle with this map.
I enjoy RPD on either end.
Better than the cat vomit Toba's/Alien/Hawkins.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404868/can-we-fix-gen-rushing
The devs unfortunately nerf killer perks that were perfect
Name them. They recently buffed Grim Embrace, which is arguably the most ridiculous overpowered slowdown perk since the existance of the term slow down.
and the generator update is basically a nerf to killer
It is a buff for killer. You never reach 8 regression stats anyway, but killer got +2,5% extra on top of the already existing 2,5% kick. And they removed Gen taping. If you reach 8 regression stats as a killer on a single gen, you probably have already won the game.
it's not even about being good anymore, games are like 8, minutes sometimes, and then loops are every 8 meters at this point
Pallets have a spawn logic. It depends on the map but they spawn at least 14-20 meters apart from each other. Said that, most maps are full of deadzones. Many maps come with 8-10 pallets. The overall average is somewhere between 12 and 13 pallets. Most pallets these days are super weak. Jungle Gyms are super weak compared to how they used to be.
"anymore"
What do you mean anymore? For survivors, kinda. The game is the by far most killer sided it ever was.
Pretty much nailed it on grim embrace. Its just a worse, global version, of eruption. And this one has 0 counterplay.
Edit: I am referring to old eruption where it stopped the survivors from doing anything.
It does the exact opposite of what it was intended to do. Killers are using this to camp/tunnel since they have to worry about 0 gen prog so they can force a stage 2 or trade. And then the 4th token at 40 seconds? Lol?
No idea what they were thinking with this perk
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Camp hook saves and find killers that circumvent vision.
That is what lights out mode is.
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You will experience the same crap you normally do on survivor but cranked up to 11. Killers are just hovering around hooksaves, so interactive and scary, so fun. Queing for this mode is super fast though, so that's a plus right? Getting right into the action of camp and tunnel at a faster rate than you already do in soloq, genius idea.
Killer role on the other hand is just... wow, I played one match of it as killer, which took forever to que for (cant imagine why), and its a joke. I dont know why you are able to see generators or hooked survivors, you should not be able to. You shouldnt be getting things like screams/killer instinct/meyers read outline/coughing... etc... otherwise you are just circumventing the whole, not seeing thing. How did the devs not think of this?
I have watched several plays with Ghost face and Meyers now and wow is it a joke. How does anyone log in and think this is fun? Its not fun on either end of this, I don't want to play with you and ... you want to just load up with basically cheat codes. Hooray, so interactive and new....
Extremely missed what I was expecting from this mode. Definitely not touching it on killer as its lame as hell, and I'd rather just que in a normal game if I want to rush myself into being camped/tunneled on survivor.
Do better BHVR.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642557#Comment_3642557
i´m sorry friend, what?
Nvm guess you werent around for Sadako 2.0 defenders.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641681#Comment_3641681
It's funny how the community constantly insults the developers, but when it's about ´´MY CHARACTER >:(´´ they try to look for any kind of opportunity to say how trash you are and that you should never say anything again, and well, that´s what is happening here, same thing happened when they nerfed spirit iri addon, when they nerfed the nurse, when they buffed the wraith etc
"Just take a ta..."
wait uhhh....
Just dont get spotted bro.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641829#Comment_3641829
- Bubba in that same exact scenario would get the down first try because its a dead zone with no window
- Oni would also get the down relatively fast because he can just zone with demon dash and its not hard to actually hit the person
This post is just for the sake of complaining because they played poorly.
I am unsure what you are trying to say.
Billy in the video missed 4x and the survivor made no distance.
Put any killer in the "missed 4x" situation and you will make distance as a survivor.
If you want to dismiss everything and call it complaining then there's nothing further to discuss and I am unsure if that approach in a public forum is the right call. You do you
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641829#Comment_3641829
- Bubba in that same exact scenario would get the down first try because its a dead zone with no window
- Oni would also get the down relatively fast because he can just zone with demon dash and its not hard to actually hit the person
This post is just for the sake of complaining because they played poorly.
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Billy missed 4 times and you cant make any distance in this scenario.
If you were to put X killer and have them miss 4x in this same scenario you would make distance as a survivor.
If you want to dismiss everything as complaining than I guess there's nothing further to discuss with you?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641723#Comment_3641723
Wdym regardless of dead zone? If there was a tile they would have taken way longer to get that down. The survivors made a huge mistake in the video which is healing in a deadzone on an open map against a billy but not they're asking for nerfs because they couldn't think ahead.
Because if you miss 4 times with any killer that I can think of you can actually get away, or there is not a one shot mechanic even if you are zoned.
If this video was Oni whiffing 4x ... you would already be half way across the map
If this video was Bubba whiffing 4x... he probably would have to resort to M1, I dont even know if you would have enough charges to whif 4x
For the non one shotters that miss this many times eventually they would hit you, but this provides you a window to get some distance.
So regardless if this is a dead zone or not, missing this many times on any killer in the game, except for Billy here, you have an extremely high chance of getting some distance/away.
Here with billy you just dont care about any of that. Hope this helps clarify.
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Regardless of a deadzone or not.
This killer missed a lot of times. So much so in fact that they are still rewarded with a down, there is 0 counter play other than "not being there"
At least with other killers you dont have a one shot mechanic+speed behind this. They will have to catch at base speed with a one shot (ghost face, Bubba) or they will move fast but not have a one shot (nurse, blight, wesker)
The problem is having all this forgiveness in missing 4x and just having 0 counterplay WITH THAT in mind. Which is pretty broken.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641190#Comment_3641190
I have a lot less sympathy for SoloQ players than most tbh, because the problem you've got is people don't bother to learn how to play the game, and you can't balance around these people either.
I have less than 1000 hours in this game and been playing since May, so of everyone here, I have a pretty good idea of the "new player experience in modern DBD" than most... yes it is a monolith of a game to learn, but there is so much content available for it, anyone who wants to get decent at DBD can do so quite easily. I got to a capable level I'd say within 100 hours, maybe 2 months, which was easier than Counter Strike back in the day, which took me nearly half a year. Bear in mind, I also have been playing DBD with severe arthritis in my hands due to a genetic condition. SoloQ is not as bad as people say.
The problem with a lot of players I see again and again is they don't check their egos at the door, and they don't bother to learn how to play against atypical killers.
Pinhead absolutely crushes pub teams, to the point where for a while I didn't like playing him because everyone I played against had no idea how he works and made no attempt to deal with the box. However I liked and still like playing against Pinhead, because he's decently strong without being oppressive... I have that opinion because I actually bothered to learn how he works, and anyone who knows how he works knows Pinhead is not that strong, yet he absolutely crushes soloQ. Tbh, and not to be an elitist jerk... I've never understood why people struggle to learn facing Pinhead at all. His power is pretty simple and straight forward to understand to my mind, yeah it crushes you the first time, but after that you should be able to figure out and understand what the threat is and what you had to do... and I faced him a number of times in the throngs of noob central before I played him myself.
Old Sadako was in the same boat. She only really scored well because your average pub player didn't bother to learn how she worked. Though a number of people love her old design, she objectively had a number of design problems. I probably wouldn't have buffed her the way BHVR did, but her original incarnation was certainly not perfect, and did need buffs.
I'd cite her 100s cooldown on a TV after teleport vs. 70s from survivor disabling the TV as exhibit A. This is completely backwards and a baffling configuration, that I'd use as the obvious daft wrong answer in a multiple choice test for students studying game design. Requiring an iri add-on to turn those TVs back on as the main way of her becoming viable only highlights how daft that set up was.
Sadako just like Pig and Pinhead was actually quite weak, she only scored well on kill rate because all of these killers have the same thing in common... they are not intense mechanics killers, they are killers you actually have to think around and engage with their slow down mechanics. People say its hard to learn all these different killer powers, but for anyone even remotely interested in genuinely learning DBD, it is not hard, it just takes a little passion and effort. I am proof of it.
PTB Sadako was the nearest to perfect incarnation that Sadako needed, and I was hyped to play both as and against her... and I'm quietly hoping they just revert her back to PTB, preferably with @radiantHero23s fixes.
Well I'm sorry you think this way of SoloQ players and want to dismiss them as incompetent. I just dont observe this in the majority of cases.
SoloQ is just getting worse and worse to play. It's kind of a delima.
You can load up killer and just stomp everyone thats not a competetive SWF, and there was little challenge. Feel pretty terrible afterwards and... yay horray I guess?
Or you can load up SoloQ survivor and watch the usual tunnel/camp of your weakest teammate (and now grim embroke) strategy that killer mains seem to justify "because SWF destroys me otherwise". And then just laugh. ***
***This I think is the most interesting issue as you pointed out that you believe Solo's are just unwilling to learn, but then I see countless posts justifying tunneling out one survivor as quickly as possible.
Like which is it? Survivors are so bad at the game but then apparentely need to be tunneled/camped the entire match?
(Im not specifically saying you said you support tunneling one out ASAP I am just observing both these arguments being said, which contradict each other. You wouldnt need to tunnel one out ASAP if they were so unwilling to learn/bad)
Another contradiction I see is a buff like billy come into play. He is now the second strongest killer in the game, its just not where we should be placing killers in power currently. The community has been sick of blight for, as long as I have played this game honestly, and now here we are making a killer stronger than him? Why?
And just to restate for people that are posting "I dont like the overheat mechanic..."
oni probably doesnt like not having his power as well
Bubba doesnt like running out of chainsaw charges
Plague doesnt like running out of red puke
Meyers doesnt like running out of t3
Ghostface doesnt like running out of reveal
There was a reason he had overheat, and without it he just spams his one shot. Which with all of the current changes, in my opinion, is just unfair to play against.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641260#Comment_3641260
So did you think overheat was better where he was punished for literally using his power? Had addons that worked only while blinded? Had a miss chainsaw stun basically the same as a legion fatigue? And just felt so bad to play? Hell most people would tell you even if they brought back 2017 billy. He would not be good with what current characters can do. Because hes so map dependant. And his power is limited in loops. Overheat was BS and should never come back. They called it contriversial for a reason. So if overheat stayed because of sunk-cost fallacy. I hope overdrive gets the same treatment for billys sake. Hes gotten the funnest change from both sides ive seen. And its been very loved even from survivor players.
The meme add-ons you gave are terrible arguments, bad addons exist on every killer in the game. Some much worse than billy.
Overheat, however, is a way on limiting his power so he constantly cant just spam his one shot.
You see this on
Oni running out of demon dash,
Bubba runs out of chainsaw swipes,
Plague runs out of red puke,
Meyers ... if he doesnt run infinite on an addon runs out of t3.
Ghostface reveal has a duration
This is something that is inherent to dbd. Non-infinite power, (lets ignore the blight-tag change that BHVR decided on giving infinite blight bounces and we should not buff any killers to nurse/blight levels either)
Noone seems to love billy's changes from survivor side so I dont know where you are getting that from. And the killer community is pretty divided. Classic players of billy are laughing at these changes, the link I posted is an example of this case.
Currently Billy is sitting comfortable in the No. 2 slot above blight now. Which no killer should ever be at that level of play.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641190#Comment_3641190
You don't need data shoveled at you to understand that Billy went from one of the most played killers for several years to being one of the least played killers for an almost equal length of time due to the piling on of limitations and baseline nerfs to his power and addons. Billy simply wasn't particularly fun to play as in the state they were in and needed changes that imparted some actual fun. Because even if it makes him harder to play against as a survivor the point of any killer is that they should be fun to play. Game takes both killer and survivor players to function and the biggest complaint is lack of variety in killers being played so the devs have to address that complaint by finding ways to get people play other killers.
You can do that by either crippling the killers being heavily played which will push players to try other killers, but it also is likely to just push diehard one tricks out of the game which is bad. You're more likely to get more people to stick around if you bring a killer up rather than forcing them down. Optimally it would be great if everyone played both sides equally, but that isn't the case and the devs have to meet the demands of two opposed sides with very different needs gameplay. Billy's strong now, but he isn't really broken and they didn't arrive at their changes purely based on player complaints.
Sadako's not in good state right now and I would argue she has never been in a good state because she's a killer who is being designed as if she is being slotted into an older version of DBD. She flat out needs a proper chase oriented ability if they are going to scale back condemned this drastically and probably should have had one from day one. Instant kills and passive slowdown through secondary survivor objectives worked fine several years ago, but that sort of thing doesn't work well without a way to engage in the key feature of the game which sadly is chasing. Sadako could be a map presence monster with an incredibly harassing chase if allowed the freedom to do so. Why they hold her back so hard when they want the instakill mechanic to not be the only thing people play for is beyond me. That took a step in the right direction during the PTB it seems, but then immediately changed course only making her that much weaker.
Honestly, I think Sadako just might be a bad fit for the game considering the difficulties the devs seem to have in crafting her a power that feels good to use and isn't horrible to play against.
This is just not the case though.
Classic Sadako players could not stand the global condemn slug mechanic which has been removed. She received minor buffs to her basekit and pallet manifestation stun immune. So far decent changes for a pretty healthy state of Sadako. You still pub stomp if you have any experience on her. The range for condemn on the TV's is pretty fair I think as well.
Billy on the other hand is just being abused. A recent post I found here https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1af3e8f/the_billy_update_is_completely_over_tuned_7k_hour/ kind of illustrates what I am talking about. It's extremely unfun to play against and outright overtuned type of play. Coupled with the current broken perk, grim embrace.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639475#Comment_3639475
Killers tunneling a survivor at 5 Gens and result the match in 4K, or a hatch escape.
Killers: Just do Gens.
The Gens in question.
This is gold
I need one like this for the previous Sadako patch lol
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They have just moved on from one broken killer to another. Its sad that ... a majority of killer players enjoy doing this. I tend to be pretty forgiving in this game when I play killer but some people are.... taking their frustrations out in a video game and will do anything to win, including using horrible tactics (camping, tunneling, broken add-ons) to using broken killers ie: Nurse, Billy, Blight.
Sadako was never in need of buffs and certainly did NOT need what she had last patch. Maybe an update to her addons and the manifest no pallet stun. But the rest was a complete joke, I suspect defenders of this 100% only play killer side in this game. There is no way anyone who plays both roles thought this playstyle was fair or intended to face.
No data ever released by the company ever suggested she needed a significant buff. This is purely on the players that were struggling with her that had issues. Many wished for her to be brought back to what she was before the update. She is now back to what she was with little bonuses here and there. Which is fine.
However,
Billy is now in this unfair and broken category. He was buffed so much that its put him above blight (without broken blight tag of course) in power. His turn radius, his collision reduction, 0 overheat, 0 cooldown, movement speed, map traversal... ALL rewarded with overdrive which empowers all of these... All with a one hit down mechanic and can cancel/fake his power at any time. This is not where we should be putting killers in terms of their power, its too much. I dont blame survivors from inting themselves against him.
Similarly no data suggested he was struggling to such a low degree. I am guessing most of these changes are on the heels of people getting, a minority of their matches I might add, competitive SWF opponents that make the killer feel powerless. SWF is a complete broken version of playing this game we shouldnt be balancing anything killer side to match that level of play. Every killer out there already can stomp solo pubs just fine currently(this is excluding broken grim embrace and its combos).
To the developers:
Stop making changes to killers because people are upset in competitive SWF matches. Solo's are stomped, in the majority of matches, no matter what killer you use. I would also guess most SWF's (party friends, joking around) are stomped as well. The high end of grouped survivors are not what we should balance killer power around.
Thank you!
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Oh no it was completely broken as a play style.
Its legit in the notes what they were doing. The people saying "just take a tape" as if survivors were blatantly ignoring the mechanic are just straight lying.
Glad they made this change as it was a silly strategy to just teleport around, deny TV's, and not interact with the hook mechanic at all.
Globally by the way. Total cope to defend this, you have to really just enjoy basic cheating to think it was fun.
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Yea shes busted and boring to play against. Pub stomper, which is the majority of the player base. Oh well until they do something about it.
And ultimate hand hold.
Guess its play SWF and swing the pendulum the other way or just dont play.
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Yea shes really just a joke. Even dbd's most popular content creator and some of the highest tiered survivors in the world think she is busted as well. Very few are happy with where she currently is, probably why she is on the chopping block.
Same with ultimate hand hold.
Once they these couple of things, more players might actually come back. Maybe me, for now its just not worth playing the game with stuff like this in the game.
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@CatnipLove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3503250#Comment_3503250
Nothing you listed is something that happens all the time. Those are just variables. Solo queue always has a bunch of variables that SWF doesn't have to account for. Sadako can be rough in solo queue, but she's no Pinhead. I think she may still need some tweaking, but I think she's not horrendous in most situations.
Quite the contrary it does. And heres several hours of actual gameplay of what happens rather than all this talk.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1883165875
Even this guy remarks several times that it is unfair how easily he gets through the matches.
The only people to actually win was Hens and his professional, tournament, SWF group. Every single other match was a 3k/4k multi mori match.
All high MMR players.
Also this from the best content creator in this community. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5G0rOFsHiw&t=274s
Even these people, who are better than both of us combined at this game. Say shes busted.
Thank you for your time!
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@CatnipLove said:
The match feels managable if everyone scrambles for a tape at the beginning. But it feels like if you don't get one, then it can be very hard to acquire one later one as she will disable TV's when she starts spamming teleport. So if the survivors spawn close together, things get kind of messy.
It sounds all fine theoretically "All 4 survivor split up and grab a tape at the start".
But that argument quickly falls apart on so many levels for things that ACTUALLY happen in game:
1: Noone knows the killer on startup, only way to know is to find a gen or run into her
2: Survivors will have to, all 4, seperate at the start of the match once they find out its Sadako and find a TV/Gen
3: Hope that they are not spotted doing this (which will not happen)
4: Hope one of your teammates, unknowingly, doesnt take a tape you are headed to.
5: Hope she doesnt teleport in your face by the time you DO find your own personal TV
No match ever, across my playtime of 1.2k hours, across all youtubes I have watched, across all streams I have watched, across all TOURNAMENT play I have watched. Have 4 players, on match start, immediately split up and get their own personal generator. It's always at least a group of 2.
It's not a realistic expectation for Soloq players for this kind of play. And this is the majority of the player base.
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Yup, only a couple weeks now, so excited!!!
If they cant fix her by then, I dont see myself playing this game anymore. Really is just a silly and broken killer at this point. And thats two killers now that I just dont want to entertain. (SM and Sadako)
Her only counter is an SWF.
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Even have to wait for the fatigue animation. Even if you have charges remaining.
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Same with being stunned have to wait for the stun animation to end, cannot hold M2 during stun
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Same with vaults. Have to wait cannot pre hold M2 during ANY animations
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497826#Comment_3497826
This is an extremely broad definition of toxic. You’re essentially calling anything toxic that you just don’t like or is strong for the killer. The vast majority of the population do not use things like that to describe toxic.
A killer slugging at end game with 2 survivors left while he looks for the last survivor is not toxic lol, that’s literally just smart. He’s won the match so he wants the 4K. I see no issue with this as survivor. He’s not trying to make anyone mad or ruin someone’s day, he’s literally just doing the smartest play. It’s like being mad at him for not playing bad lol.
To say there’s not counter play to Sadako slugging is just objectively a false statement btw.
You make it sound like slugging as Sadako is just an easy free win. She is literally an m1 killer with no anti loop, a bad stealth and a map traversal survivors can control. Like what more do you want? She’s literally trash in every aspect that makes a good killer good other than her condemn. For you to be getting chain slugged both you and your team would have to be getting outplayed over and over again against basically a trapper with no traps rofl. Essentially if she’s actually pulling that off y’all are either having a very, very bad game or the killer is just way more skilled than your team and probably deserves the win.
Slugging is not risky because they’re playing Sadako? What? She literally risked all that time chasing to potentially gain nothing if she fails at it, ie gens popping. She risks just like other killers when going for slugs.
Slugging because she can global condemn and just info find the other survivors. Shes not punished or at a disadvantage for slugging. Other killers would lose their target and or not find anyone else. She can teleport you know ? Right back to the person she slugged, or in the general vicinity. And its 10 seconds on CD. Other killers would have to traverse back.
As for the whole M1 talking point:
Its easy to zone out and kill survivors regardless of what killer it is. Wanna say that plague cant do it? Shes worse than Sadako is at this by a metric mile. But you still get M1 hits regardless.
This is what doesnt make sense and why I mentioned it earlier. Everyone says "Ohhhhh just grab a tape"
but in the next breath they go "oohhhh shes M1, just loop her its easy".
You realize how contradictory those two statements are to one another right?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497783#Comment_3497783
Hooking once you have all 4 survivors downed is different than hooking at every down. The former happens every single match, if they’re slugging at all that is.
Bleeding the whole team out I will agree is toxic. However that is almost never happening, like ever. Waiting to hook till they’re on the ground is not toxic as he isn’t dragging the game out to be mean, he’s only doing it for strategy and to slow the gens down while building pressure.
Oh but it is. The current wave of "Sadako mains" are taking advantage of the non communication/non-coordination of a slug trap. And there's really no counter play.
Its like imagine a killer in the end game with 2 survivors left. Slugs one but is nowhere near or has no idea/no information perks, nothing, to where the last survivor is.
What makes Sadako in particular worse for this is, she never had to interact with a hook mechanic or a generator regress/patrol mechanic the entire match. She just needs info, which she only needs to run as perks now, and then its all downhill for survivors there. And thats why its so toxic. Where other killers actually risk something from leaving a slugged survivor, Sadako just gains.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497774#Comment_3497774
Toxic would be leaving you all there to bleed out and waste your time. 4 person slugging at base and then hooking once he’s got y’all is not toxic whatsoever.
There is no all of the sudden, slugging 4 people never has been toxic. What people are referencing is leaving them all to bleed out while he stands there. That is two VERY different things.
You have Sadako's that hook?
Gimme your matches please.
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I dont know if shes at the level of the 3 gen camping Skull Merchant.
But yes, currently she is busted.
Its funny right? The constant argument I see is contradictory
1: Just take a tape
2: Shes an M1 killer, with no chase, just loop and escape