Archol123
Archol123
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728564#Comment_3728564
I don't expect them to do anything else, I'm just explaining what I consider gen-rushing.
So you consider normalgameplay to be gen rushing? By that logic every team that is not completely new should always gen rush as it is basically just playing the game normally xD Fair enough I guess ^^ Kind of makes the phrase useless though, as it does not describe anything that is not regular gameplay anyway.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415461/should-hooks-break-on-death
Nope, it does not really serve a purpose and leads to situations were you objectively cannot hook someone because no hook is in range, therefore creating deadzones, it can be because the killer didn't pay attention when hooking but it can also be forced by survivors when they decide to die edge map, knowing there is only one hook in range.
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@Krazzik said:
For me it's when survivors immediately get onto gens and only focus on doing gens for the entire game. Obviously they'll still be unhooking and being chased and stuff but the moment they have ANY downtime they're immediately back on gens.
They don't have to bring perks or toolboxes or anything, they just have to focus heavily on efficiently doing gens.
But what else are they supposed to do? That just describes normal gameplay… Gens are the main objective, and if there is not some sort of secondary killer power in play that has them do certain things or hex perks then what else are they supposed to do? Just do bones and chests for the sake of it?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728427#Comment_3728427
You're right. I should have explained this a bit better. When the killer performs average to good and the gens are still done in 5 minutes, that is gen rush. This means the killer isn't afk, they don't play like a bot, they aren't a complete beginner and they do get some hooks (at least 3).
But then we sitll have the issue of what else are survivors supposed to do… So you're limiting it to pure gen times, which probably can also be reached if you just play efficient. So if they are just sitting on gens, as expected, there are no secondary objectives like hex totems or a secondary killer power that needs to be taken care of, what are survivors supposed to do otherwise? All they can do is gens, unless they want to have a harder game than necessary, I don't know about the time limit exactly but potentially that is the direction in which it goes…
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728395#Comment_3728395
You do not need me to tell you how four syringes or styptics extending chases by 20s each help you do gens.
Right, Knockout should probably go in the nerfed cheese category for Nurse. Billy could still use it though if he wanted considering how quickly he can bounce between survivors. Even without it Infectious, Deerstalker tells the story I wanted to tell. I also have been slugged by a Blight with Knockout this year, so there you go. He did not need for or use it on me after the first down but it still helped him. If I had known this would come up I would have saved his VOD.
does it also fit when you just cut every other activity in the game short so you can spend more time on gensInteresting point. Probably no for any random shortcut. Like I said quantities.
I do not know how well versed you are in RTS and SC2 specifically but you cannot just play macro especially vZ. In TvZ and PvZ you absolutely do not want to let Zerg get into the lategame uncontested. He will roll over you with a massive economy. Once there on even footing some Zergs really do not want to deal with Skytoss so they better do something to prevent a critical mass if P goes for it. TvP is similar. T units work better than P units do in low to medium numbers and Terran needs to keep Protoss high tech unit numbers in check just like P needs these units first to survive and then to push. ZvZ you just die if even get mildly greedy. And then there are the resources at your bases that will run out eventually. LotV main bases are empty 8min into the game.
This has gotten a little off-topic.
Oh so stuff that extends chases is now genrush as well? At this point I have to seriously ask which perks you don't classify as gen rush perks? Because currently we have healing, gen speed, chase perks and what not… That rules out almost every category of perks that exists. When you have such a wide definition then everything is genrush, playing against better players is also genrush, because the loop you for longer…
I mean sure, you obvoiusly don't want to leave the opponent alone for the entire match, but you can still aim for it, a little bit of harassment here and there so you get the upper hand economically speaking and then your goal is to win around x minutes, but that is just not something you can do in dbd, sure starcraft also has limited ressources, but not close to how limited they are in DBD…
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724461#Comment_3724461
Explain to me where me suggesting a better tutorial with better incentives for better teammates for better quality of gameplay, service and better enjoyment in general affects you in any way?
You're fighting a point so damn hard like it affects you when you already play the game, if you're fine with the game how it is then this change does nothing but make the game better.
The only conclusion is you main killer and refuse to get better yourself.
From the beginning on I was never against better tutorials, the only thing I ever complained about was making them mandatory, I don't understand how you can still not understand that, after telling you 50 times. I am against it because it is mandatory, and mandatory tutorials are just terrible.
I don't like mandatory tutorials, which is why I am bringing forth arguments against it, I think they are bad design and you should not force people to do them. For some reason for you it is only black and white there are no shades, I'm either in favor of a mandatory tutorial or against any changes that would make them better, that just makes no sense.
The only conclusion is that I don't like mandatory tutorials, as I have stated 50 times, which you apparently conveniently did not read… Also that argument of yours does not make sense on any level, because a mandatory tutorial would affect both sides, so no matter which side I would main the other side would still improve through those tutorials, so how does it make any sense? If a basic tutorial is enough to outclass me on killer I would need to be really terrible at the game, and unless you want to assume that as well I don't really know what you are trying to say other than you're getting frustrated you are apparently losing the argument and therefore attacking me personally (or frame me) as a killer main that is too bad at the game to keep up with players that only did a tutorial to the game…
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I guess Ghostface or Myers, I don't feel like Pig for example is too stealthy, aside from that every killer with tinkerer when I don't know it yet.
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@Xernoton said:
If all 5 gens are done in less than 5 minutes, I consider that gen rush. Anything else is fine (more or less).
So you consider it genrushed when the killer is chasing one guy for 5 minutes and cannot catch him, while his teammates just do all the gens? Which should take them 4-5 min? Is that gen rushing then? (3 survivors on 3 gens, 85-90 sec each (great skillchecks included) then maybe 20 sec of walking and another 90 sec for the remaining 2 generators, 1 duo one solo gen, so we are at roughly 3.5 minutes now… That's even faster than what you proclaimed, but is this really gen rush? Like what else are those guys supposed to do in this situation when the killer does nothing.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728338#Comment_3728338
Funny that you mention Starcraft 2 when a lot of cheesy strategies/mechanics have been nerfed or entirely removed or are still getting nerfed, some nerfs come late but this is better than never. Roach spam was nerfed between closed beta and release of WoL, Warpgate research time was increased early on in WoL to combat 4gates, Khaydarin Amulet was removed so no more Psy Storm warp-ins, Mothership's blackhole was removed so no more Archon toilet, since LotV warp-ins on map are more difficult so everyone needs to spend resources and time on getting a Warp Prism, Banelings vs Probes were nerfed, Widow mines no longer stay invisible when on CD because they were obnoxious in mineral lines and required no thought, Liberators are getting their range nerfed for the same reason. There are probably more but you get the idea. I have played SC2 at GM level. Neither do I condemn cheese nor blame players for using them. In SC2 cheeses demand a certain mechanical profiency and game knowledge to defend against them and mainly punish greed. Thus they are fair game in most scenarios. What was imbalanced and extremely cheesy however were the Winfestor into GGlords and Swarmhost debacles in WoL and HotS.
DBD cheeses that were nerfed: hitting immediately off hook (basekit BT), face-camping, 3genning and a couple of survivor perks. FTP+BU is next.
Just because you being a certain item to make something quicker does not mean you are rushing something. Maybe you will use it to Sabo?Please pardon my French but do not piss in my ear and tell me it is raining. Brown or yellow toolbox, sure, who cares. On the other hand Commodius with double charges/BNP is not getting used to sabo unless the user also brings Built To Last/Scavenger, and even then the first round is pumped into a gen. Remember, I said bringing items in quantities. I do not consider one green toolbox with mild addons to be gen-rushing. I am talking about a full loadout of any combination of fat toolboxes and syringes/styptics. Not one, not two, but a full four strong items that take off a massive chunk of time. Maybe the Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Billy with Knockout, Infectious, Deerstalker does not intend to slug. Who can tell?
It seems you misunderstood my point there.I understood you perfectly, I just disagree with what you consider rushing and I am baffled by what you do not consider rushing.
If you have resilience and are dead on hook the best thing to do is sit on a Gen and don't make any sound so the killer does not find you easilyI disagree. Doing this when your unhooker has We'll Make It and you know for a fact the killer is across the map at 3 gens is brainlessly playing your own build with no regard for the state of the game or the team. Thus it fits your definition. I used Resilience as an argument because their users are more likely to throw a game for 9% gen speed and overconfidence in their chase abilitly. Just because you have it does not mean it is smart to throw the game in an attempt to use it. If you are getting camped and have to scurry away, sure, but this is not automatically the best play especially if the only two hooks in the game are on you. To me this is a case-by-case decision. The best play might be to not sit on a gen at all even with Resilience + Adrenaline.
genrushing is […] bad play because […] not […] optimal and the person that does it knowing it is not optimalBad play is bad. Cool. Just because you know it is not optimal does not automatically give you better options. This is the lack of coordination I was talking about. Some of these survs would prefer to be healed. Your definition is not even a definition. You just say gen-rushers have bad game sense and make bad decisions because of it. Your first post was much better
Basically prioritizing generators over everything elsewhich I am almost inclined to agree with but even this statement is lacking.If bringing every possible item to shave off as much time as possible is not a rush then 6 pool and proxy gates are not rushes either.
How exactly do med kits help you do gens faster? Sure both save you time, but so do healing perks or gen speed perks, but assuming that somebody wants to genrush because they are bringing a heal perk is a bit off… All those perks do is cut time short you would spend on a certain action and therefore you able to spend more time doing something different, for example gens or healing. However what other perks are there? Because this kind of sounds like no matter what perks they bring to save time on actions, and therefore have more time for gens, they are gen rushing, and that is absurd.
Funny comparrison, considering Nurse, Blight and Billy cannot use Knockout effectively, since it requires a basic attack…The difference between those two concepts is that you can use those items to also sabo or use them in whatever way you see fit, however knockout and deerstalker only give value when you slug.
Well with Resilence you always need to decide whether you take the risk or not, but as long as they thought about what could be the proper play and did not just go like "bar goes yellow nice" then it is all fair.
Of course it is an assessment case by case, but that's my whole point… If you think about what the best thing to do is, and your decision making leads you to therefore sitting on the gen, then that is not gen rushing, because it is most optimal play. As soon as you think about what the optimal play for the given situation is and you don't just sit on your generator without taking into consideration what this will lead to when it comes to the outcome of the match and your teammates then I don't consider this gen rushing anymore. Generally you want to play in a way the killer can not get rid of you easily, which is why I said sitting on a gen without making noise… Ofc this also involves leaving that gen when you think he will come back soon, so to not give him a kill and making it a 3v1, I thought that to be a given.
I mean sure I could have also repeated the part from above again, but what I wanted to include the idea of it not being thought through before they do it. Just sitting on a generator might be the best play given the circumstances, even prioritizing it over your teammates in that situation can be the best play, however it always needs to thought about if that is the case. Because otherwise they are just brainlessly rushing the generator, that's my whole point.
Well if you go by that definition than bringing healing builds, deliverance, resilience and medkits are also gen rushing… For that point, does it even matter if you do gens faster for it to be a gen rush or does it also fit when you just cut every other activity in the game short so you can spend more time on gens, and therefore get all gens done just as quick?
I don't think those two things are comparable, in Starcraft time does not necessarily work against you, you can just play a macro game if you don't feel like cheesing, however that does not really fit DBD, as survivor time is against you and the longer the match goes the less ressources the map still has. For that reason you kind of have to act with a sense of urgency and rush your goal to some degree, which is why I don't think the comparisson fits in that manner.
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I have the same issue for years, but for me it not only crashes the game but also my graphics drivers... Dbd is the only game that does it and I have no clue why...
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@ChrissyG88 said:
Just had a Solo Q match against a Bubba, who spent the whole match chasing a Thalita, allowing the rest of us to just focus on doing gens. She was amazing and only got downed after the 5th gen was completed. The Bubba then face-camped her in the basement, and whilst we all tentatively checked to see if we could save her, we realised there was no way and we all just left.
In terms of a bloodpoints reward, Thalita would have gotten the max for Boldness, and a small amount for Survival and Objectives, whereas the rest of us would have gotten a lot more bloodpoints overall, despite her being the reason we escaped.
Seeing as survivor side is a team game, shouldn't the team as a whole get a bloodpoint bonus for each survivor that escapes the trial?
It doesn't have to be a huge amount, but at least a little something to show that we are a team and not just 4 individuals.
Example (Just plucked these numbers off the top of my head with no serious thinking involved, it's just to give you an idea):
1 survivor escapes - Entire team gets 2k extra bloodpoints
2 survivors escape - Entire team gets 5k extra bloodpoints
3 survivors escape - Entire team gets 10k extra bloodpoints
4 survivors escape - Entire team gets 20k extra bloodpoints
Of course, there will be scenarios where a survivor dies early in the game, and the dead survivor has moved on to another match or shut down the game completely, but the team-based bloodpoints can be added retrospectively once the match has been completed.
Good idea, I would make it so the objective points your team does during your chase get added to your score, either fully or a fraction of it. That would make it so you don't need to add points after the guy died. And it is directly linked to his effort distracting the killer.
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@VampireHimbo said:
Gen Rush is whenever a survivor dares finish a generator and not let the killer win at 5 gens. Killers take it as a personal attack when Generators are done and think winning at anything but 5 gens is a bad thing. They don't seem to realize a 4k at 5 gens or a 4k at 1 gen have the exact same value.
Unless you are playing in a tournament ^^
And technically also for the emblem system...
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728316#Comment_3728316
There is difference between playing the game and using borderline busted tools, that the devs refuse to address, to do it. In other games this would be called a cheese - something that is much easier to execute than to defend against. Though unlike other games defending this cheese is even more difficult to deal with due to multiple layers of RNG and the 1v4 thing.
Toolboxes are the fastest way to do gens so bringing multiple of these is a clearly an intended rush. They could be bringing different items.
To you last point: In solo queue you do not always know if they are brainlessly sitting on gens unless they have resilience and are dead on hook. More often than not it is just lack of coordination with the injured survs too scared to run around to find someone to heal them while no one comes to find them. Automatically attributing bad plays like this to gen-rushing is not appropriate in my opinion.
You cannot really blame people for using tools that are in the game, this is fully on the devs that busted things are still in the game. Also arguably med kits are and have always been stronger than toolboxes, because they save you more time on average than a toolbox, at least in a normal game.
In other games cheeses are also completely valid and while the community does not like them the professional players for example in Starcraft 2 do acknowledge them just like any other strategy.
Just because you being a certain item to make something quicker does not mean you are rushing something. Maybe you will use it to Sabo?
It seems you misunderstood my point there. Brainlessly doing a gen despite knowing it affects your team negatively... If you have resilience and are dead on hook the best thing to do is sit on a Gen and don't make any sound so the killer does not find you easily... Sure it would be safer to heal up, but with nobody around and depending on the gens left it could still be the most optimal play.
In soloQ more often than not it is better to not run around looking for a teammate to heal you but to just do the objective, because the risk of running into the killer or wasting way too much time is just too high.
My definition of genrushing is that it is a bad play because despite it not being optimal and the person that does it knowing it is not optimal they still decide to do it and just sit on a generator leading to their own downfall... I don't think you can call the most optimal play Gen rushing. Because what else are people supposed to do? You want them to play worse despite knowing better?
The point is doing gens as fast and as efficient as possible without sacrificing your teammates needlessly in the process is the most optimal thing to do, so if that is Gen rushing then you are basically complimenting the people doing that. Because they are just doing their objective in the most efficient way, they are doing what they are supposed to do.
People sometimes tend to compare Gen rushing to tunneling and that is by my definition only valid if you compare it to mindless tunneling, in a similar way to my definition of Gen rushing there is an efficient way to get your objective done and there is a mindless one that will usually be worse than just playing normally. You can go for the weak link if you catch it until they are out or you can juggle two survivors so they both die early or you mindlessly tunnel one guy no matter how bad the chase goes, you basically have the same tunnel vision on this survivor like the survivor has on his Gen while Gen rushing, in both cases the player loses sight of the main goal to focus on something that will not help him in the long run.
But otherwise both people are just trying to do their objective in the way they seem fit for it, which is basically just playing the game.
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@alpha5 said:
I don't consider having good toolboxes […] gen
rushing.Why? What could be more gen-rushy than quad commodius (+ adrenaline)? In fact I think this is the only valid definition of gen rush - bringing strong items and certain perks in quantities to maximize time on gens. That includes styptics and syringes. One commodius without charge addons, 2 resiliences and an adrenaline is hardly a gen rush even if one surv has all 3 of them.
Your definition is flimsy at best. You said more about what you consider not gen rushing than what you do while being as vague as possible.
Simply because doing gens is the main objective? You are not really rushing it, just because you try to do it faster, doing your objective as fast as you can is basically the goal, it only becomes rushing when you neglect everything else to brainlessly do so despite the negative impact it has on your team/your chance to win.
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Genrushing in my mind is basically being glued to the generator without taking into consideration whether or not it is a good play or not. Basically prioritizing generators over everything else, despite it possibly leading you to lose the game. So for example sticking to the Gen and not unhooking someone for no good reason.
There is just no incentive to do chests and dull totems anyway, so not doing those does not lead to Gen rushing. The same goes for not healing as that can be a strategic decision. And full builds to do gens faster also don't really count, because whether you go for a heal build to save time there or for a gen speed build to save time there is not really that different, in both cases you are trying to save time.
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@ChainsLogic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728019#Comment_3728019
Like I already said, the possibility of standing moris, which aren't possible with any mori offering, plus a healthy way of the add-on staying in the game. If that minor thing isn't enough, I don't mind them deleting it from the game, the add-on was never really fun to go against, and if encountering good survivors, it wasn't even fun on the killer's side.
I just don't think it is worth the increased stalk condition when it also only works under the same condition as a mori, sure standing mori is nice, but you have to be t3 anyway, so whether you down them first or instantly mori them does not really make that much of a difference.
I would prefer the addon to just be gone, because either it will be too similar to the mori or it will be annoying to go against..
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@drsoontm said:
The point at 6:14 is why I've stopped playing Hag altogether. It's infuriating.
So why don't you just not swing immediatly if you know people do this thing? Teleport and then take the hit afterwards? I mean what else are survivors supposed to do to get rid of hag traps, especially before the introduction of the whiping away?
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727960#Comment_3727960
I will defend that change to tombstone for only one reason: They are planning to introduce the last survivor Mori system in the future. So Myers having a replacement for an ebony mori would kinda track. It would make a lot of sense to go that direction with tombstone once that is in place.
I mean they wanted to introduce it once, therefore I guess we should judge it on what we currently have.
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@Junylar said:
And it should include general information about all of the perks. If the player fails to answer correctly what a perk does - he fails the exam and can only try again after a 24h cooldown. The cooldown should increase exponentially after each consecutive failure, and it should take just one wrong answer to fail the whole exam. And yes, it should be strictly timed too.
I was just accused of cheating by a teammate for using plot twist. Of course they tried to heal me while I was at it, good thing I knew to hold shift and luckily they didn't attract the killer. And I have more than 1k hours in DbD, so it's not that potato entry level of MMR. It was a player with a decent MMR who had no idea what one of the most famous perks does. They also were surprised they couldn't pick me up, so they don't know about the shift too. That entry exam should either filter them all from the game all just force them to learn it. That one occasion nearly costed us a game, and it happens constantly.
Horrible idea and there is no redeeming that, no you should certainly not be forced to do any of that, no cooldown nothing, like how are people supposed to even play the game after a stressfull day and then the game comes around with more work… Sure as hell many people won't touch such a game again.
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@Mooks said:
so, apparently BHVR started another program alongside the Fog Whisperer program which focuses on actual gameplay feedback and decisions. Without actually announcing something officially (as far as I have seen?! - was it mentioned in the anniversary stream?)
they have tied the pixel glasses crow charm behind this program as well (sadge)
https://twitter.com/hensdbd/status/1794453773844177221?s=46
imo, this is not the right direction to go.Nothing against this Hens dude at all - but I really think Content Creators are heavily biased (not necessarily a killer vs survivor thing) and are not the best source for consultation in this regard.
also, do you know who else is part of this program, requirements? Is there a list (I think there is for Fog Whisperers?)I think it is a step in the right direction. I guess all those consultant have thousands of hours in the game and basically play it for a living, so they should have quite a good idea when something is a completely terrible idea for example Original Legion, or skull merchant and all that stuff, so that BHVR can get early feedback and just come up with something completely different, the same for certain addon changes like nerfing billys engravings. This will be a good way to not bring out stuff like that again, and maybe also somewhat of a way for the community to bring forth new ideas, depending on how those consultants interact with their community and present their ideas. Considering Otz tends to discuss a lot with his viewers about stuff like that I would assume others do the same.
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I think they should just make it into an insta down when you hit someone beyond 40+ m or so, to reward players that go for artillery shots.
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@ChainsLogic said:
Tier 1
- Has normal lunge in tier 1 (was shorter than usual)
- By pressing the power button (default CTRL) Myers can return to tier 1 from tier 2 or 3 at the cost of half his stalk. The currently unused imminent tier up sound effect will play map wide when he returns to tier 1.
Stalking
- Survivors have 40 stalk points (10 per survivor)
- Gains same amount of stalk from 1 to 40 meters
- Gains stalk from multiple survivors at the same time
- Gains 0.7 evil within progress per second of stalking
- Needs 5.04 stalk points which is 7.2 seconds of stalking for each tier up
- After a survivor is out of stalk points, they will regenerate their stalk over time up to a maximum of 75 percent or 7.5 stalk points. Every time they are fully stalked again they will regenerate up to 7.5 stalk points.
- Survivors regenerate 0.2 stalk points per second whenever their stalk points are fully drained. After 37.5 seconds their stalk meter is filled up fully to 7.5 stalk points.
Add-ons
- Boyfriend’s memo - Removed
- Judith’s Journal - Increases the rate at which evil is gained when stalking your Obsession by 30%
- J.Myers Memorial - Increases the rate at which evil is gained when stalking by 20%
- Tombstone Piece - Removed
- Judith’s Tombstone – Allows to kill healthy/injured survivors in tier 3 after they’ve been hooked 2 times, with the buff of both being able to kill standing and downed survivors, and not being slowed down in tier 3. Tier 3 requires 150% more stalk
- Fragrant Tuft of Hair – Whenever you down a survivor, see all other survivors auras for 5 seconds
Why would you ever run tombstone when it does basically the same thing as an ebony mori? Without the negative aspect of needing to stalk for longer?
I would also make it so that stalk starts regenerating before running completely dry or at a reduced rate after being empty.
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@VladaArmy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726347#Comment_3726347
Because it was the combined dlc's where i had some characters and some i didnt. It was cheap so i bought them.
Fair I guess, but I don't think you will be able to refund it… tough luck.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727861#Comment_3727861
I do that but some people like console cannot is what I'm saying. it's not a good solution to just say deal with it, it's looking to put something in place when said situation is present.
I'm not saying report them, but I mean a mechanicConsole cannot? You can just not look at the screen :D:D You can literally do anything else but sit there and get bmed xD
I don't know if a mechanic is necessary in that situation? Maybe just a give up button I guess.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
it would be nice if there was a faster way to end the match when its prolonged intentionally or unintentionally whe the survivor has a situation that would result in them being free if picked up. (finisher mori should fix this thankfully for the killers agency about it)
But it doesn't fix the survivor issue, a lot of killers do this intentionally while bming though atm, and the people in here who are dismissing that are just ignorant.
At least when I play killer and someone bms at the exit gate I can hit them out to get them out faster, on survivor you just "have to deal with it", and if you play with a friend they have to wait for you to die also and that's just not good design at all.Sorry dude but if you straight up sit there for 4 min while the guy bms you and watch him doing so then nobody can help you, tab out and do something else or so..
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727794#Comment_3727794
I didn't say you did, it's following your train of thought if we gave them help with your complaints about them, trying to find a solution which is healthy for the game IMO.
I think you could even up the numbers a bit, and they would still not compare to perks like pain rez for example, especially because dying light only gets some form of value when the game is already mostly over. And thana by its nature of only working properly in your favor when everyone is injured is not really viable on most killers.
But sure we could totally just rework them entirely.
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@Rigbeta said:
I don't know the first thing about implementing a replay system. I assume it would be difficult, but I think it would be a VERY helpful investment on Behaviour's part.
It would give players an automatic tool for showing something busted in-game, a glitch/bug, or expose cheating.
I recently got accused of cheating and thank god I stream my matches usually because I had the perfect opportunity to directly show the person why things happened the way they did and gave my side to them via the video evidence.
This is primarily WHY I stream. I don't do it to gain views, rather I give myself a means of having evidence to stand up for myself in these scenarios.
Back tot the replay, I know it's been brought up before, by myself included, but I've never heard any official statement on it from the dev team. I am unsure if they've ever addressed it, but I'd love to hear what they have to say on the matter because some players either can't run multiple programs due to their gaming limitations, don't have the knowledge to back up their gameplay choices with physical evidence etc etc.
I know I for sure would feel a lot of relief knowing that a report and or point of confusion is easily backed up by an automatic recording or something.It would be nice, but apparently they mentioned multiple times that they are limited by the engine or something similar like that? Maybe when they switched to the new engine it enables this? Would be nice at least.
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@Header said:
it’s not supposed to reach the survivor in the basement
Why not? In the sense of why should it not do that?
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727757#Comment_3727757
But if you buff it you add to the problem currently, I feel these perks do need help but the issue with stacking should not be ignored. The point isn't its the most effective tactic available its when they get into play its miserable to play against.
Power creep will happen if we help these perks and more problems will be created from it without a cap in place, this would stop the gen speed issue going to far in one way or the other, solving a lot of issues the game currently has for both Killers and survivor.Where exactly did I say I want to buff them? (For the record obviously they need to be reworked/buffed because they are utterly garbage, but I didn't say that… Did I? )
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@Sinndica said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727773#Comment_3727773
I'm not saying it's not going to be difficult, I'm just saying it's not unwinnable. Like true it'll probably end with a loss but hey you gotta deal with whatever cards you were dealt with. Not every killer player is gonna play all sportsmen-like or make it so everyone's gonna have fun unfortunately. But like having only 3 bad games against "The Pig", in which they so happen to be doing the same thing, hardly calls for a nerf. Plus there was no mention on the perks PatchNoir was using, what perks the 3 pigs were using, what maps these 3 pig games were on, etc. you know stuff that can heavily influence how the game is played. So hence my nonchalant response before
It is not really about nerfing her but addressing the problematic gameplay this strategy provides.
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@Sinndica said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415188/i-never-wanted-to-say-this-nerf-pig
You just went against tunneling pig players, you'll be fine lol. Besides there's no unwritten rule saying that the pig can't go after someone with a trap on their head. Next time just find a way to lose the killer and if you can't than well use that brain of yours by getting the trap off and escaping the pig using map and perk knowledge.
You seem to be missing the point where this is not as easy as you seem to believe.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727760#Comment_3727760
You die regardless...
You just wrote there is chance for hatch if you live long enough, but you don't have that option with trap, because of time. That doesn't make any sense.
If Pig tries to get me out by forcing trap, I get more time than if she went directly for tunneling.
Another killer cannot force you into the secondary objective because you otherwise just die
Not sure how I would count Pinhead, Wesker, Sadako for this…
You have 150 seconds to get the trap done, which is less than it takes your team to get gens done, especially with perks like deadlock for example. If she tries to tunnel you out the safest place for you is on the hook, because you get around 55 seconds for each state (realistically, you will not get unhooked perfectly after 60 seconds each time). Trying to chase you normally leads to no pressure through the trap during the chase, I'm not complaining that it is strong I just say that by doing effectively nothing skillfully you force the survivor to start doing the box with you right behind so you can get a free hit or otherwise the trap just kills you. And your only chance to get out is through hatch, because the pig will never let you stay on the box long enough for you to get it done (in this scenario).
Sadako is the exception, but Pinhead and Wesker don't just kill you in chase, they get a down. I'm not happy about either of those two, but for pinhead your team can at least do the box, unless you are the one holding it. For Wesker we will have to see if the 4% slow is manageable, at least his infection takes ages without a second hit after unhook when starting from 1% and to make it faster he needs to hit you. A way lesser evil on those two.
As for Sadako I guess your team could disable tvs so you can loop in areas where she cannot condemn you further? But I don't know I'm not happy with the concept of insta kills in general and Sadako condemn in specific.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727736#Comment_3727736
Hard tunneling the guy might leave him enough time to survive until endgame and get hatch there, whereas the timer thing does not.
How so? I really don't see logic in this.
You die to timer only if you let her. What exactly she can do to you if you start solving the box in front of her? She is forced to stop you → stop the timer.You die regardless... Be it by the timer or because she hooked you because you otherwise solve the box. However when a killer other than pig is after you there is no secondary condition under which you still die. That's what I meant. Another killer cannot force you into the secondary objective because you otherwise just die and therefore take a free down/hook they need to hit you normally, which is my entire point. Sure other killers can tunnel you as well and their chase powers might even be stronger but pig is basically the only one where no matter how bad you play it and if you get into chase at all the survivor will die to either you or the trap on his head.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727737#Comment_3727737
Because basically it is the killers job to be annoying and chase the survivors and eventually to kill them.
That is a good point. I have no counter argument to this because looking at the site I linked above I also found that they made exceptions for some of their rules in order to cover things that also fall under allowed strategies. However, bleeding survivors out is not on there. So technically you are correct that it could be considered fair game after all.
However, the lines get a bit blurry here. While it is the killer's job to "annoy" survivors in the sense that they should make progressing harder and pose a threat, it is not their job to go out of their way to be a dick, which bleeding everyone out for the sole purpose of bleeding everyone out is. It's also unsportsmanlike conduct, which is another reportable offense.
It would be nice to know whether or not they do consider this as a valid strategy or not. Personally, I think they shouldn't but I am not the one who makes the rules.
It can be bm for sure if the Ghostface tags you for 4 minutes, but it is not reportable/banable in the sense of nothing happens if you do it.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727718#Comment_3727718
That doesn't mean they aren't problematic when stacked, it's why they got nerfed in the first place. Maybe if there was stacking prevention they'd be buffed again. See the bigger picture please.
Stacking dying light Thana and pentimento is way worse of a build than pentimento and pain rez and grim embrace... You could argue that with thanas stronger version there might have been issues, but dying light is absolutely terrible and not worth it at all.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727717#Comment_3727717
Then that's still on the devs and not on me because by your logic they would be lying. When you select to report a player, it lets you choose between four different categories. Griefing is one of them. Being Spanish doesn't fit in any of those categories, so it would not be a reportable offense either way.
Not necessarily because it probably does not fit griefing, as that is technically only possible for players of the same team.
Because basically it is the killers job to be annoying and chase the survivors and eventually to kill them. Bleeding them out is just one option to do so... When you play a slug heavy build for example on Twins it can happen fairly easily that people bleed out on the floor. And if it is obviously allowed under that circumstances then it is allowed as a general Behaviour, and since we cannot punish intention it is not griefing.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727712#Comment_3727712
As I said, you're in the hands of your team. A Pig crouch stalking you is definitely beatable if you and your team play well.
What nerf would you propose to guard against this? It's not strong as you say, tends to result in a 3 man out for a halfway competant team, and can be escaped by a skilled player.
The other killers can "bully" you without actively throwing the game. Pig cannot.
Honestly if the Pig wants you near guaranteed dead, crouching after you is not necessary. Put the trap on a survivors head and just tunnel no matter what. Even if they loops for 5 gens, they can't go out of gate, so that's a far more guaranteed kill than this goofy crouch strategy.
What would your idea be for that? Unless your argument is completely gut her head traps to the point of not functioning at all if the Pig is anywhere in the tri-state area of the survivor with one, this "guaranteed kill" argument is not gonna be resolved....
Maybe you have some God reperk to resolve it, but from what I've seen thus far, all suggestions put forward just neuter the Pig completely so that even throwing the game for a kill still doesn't result in a kill... which makes trying to play for 4 kills even worse.
For the xth time now... I never said it is strong, it is just not avoidable for the player it is done to... Ofc more often than not the other guys will get out, it is still a super annoying thing that should not exist for the one guy that drew the short stick. Hard tunneling the guy might leave him enough time to survive until endgame and get hatch there, whereas the timer thing does not.
Yeah the how to do it is rough. If I had to brainstorm ideas, I guess you could make it so that while within x m of the guy it does not tick down, which would towards the game delay part, because now the guy is doing nothing so you basically play a 3v1 and it only kicks in when you want to annoy that guy. Maybe you could make it so that pig can get in chase while crouched, but only under certain conditions to avoid making her stealth even more useless. I'm sure there is something that could be done to get rid of this thing.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I don't have an issue with Plaything itself, it's the synergy with pentimento, then pentimento paired with dying light and thana altogether leading to an incredibly boring match.
Plaything has never been a perk I've found a problem on its own.
But slowdown and speed up perks being stackable is huge issue atm anyways, they should look into introducing a slowdown cap like at Pentimento's level and no higher than that. same with speed up, maybe cap it at prove thyselfs or something without a toolboxDying light is one of the worst perks in the game... I take that perk over almost any other when I can decide what the poor killer has to run... Same goes for Thana unless you play Legion or Plague.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727594#Comment_3727594
And using the exploit with toolboxes and Potential Energy was also progressing the game. Still it was an exploit. See how 2 things can be true at once? This is why everything has to be looked at on a case by case basis. When you have all 4 survivors on the ground and you make sure they all bleed out, instead of simply killing them, then that's still griefing. If someone bleeds out because your entire strategy was slugging and they just so happened to die before the others were down as well, then that's a different case and as disgusting as it is, it's not griefing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727668#Comment_3727668
I don't see the flawed logic on my part.
It's similar to how they handle exploits. It is a reportable offense, they just don't do anything about it. The game clearly states that you can report people for abusing exploits and griefing though.
If something is reportable but nothing happens no matter what then it is not reportable... Otherwise anything is reportable... I can report people for being Spanish and I know nothing will happen, the same with reporting for t bagging or what not. Something being reportable means it has to have the option to succeed, otherwise the word would have no meaning because technically you can write whatever you want into the report. In that case why does it have any relevance whether or not something is reportable?
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727684#Comment_3727684
It's not a guaranteed kill, I just explained how you beat it. It's a hard kill to avoid individually, but no harder than avoiding a Pyramid Head tunnel.
It's a valid criticism that it leaves the survivor with little individual agency to save themselves, they have to rely on their team, but realistically the chance of surviving this is more than a strong chase killer like Spirit or, Wesker, Blight or Pyramid Head just tunneling you off hook normally for the vast majority of the player base. I dunno about your games, but its rare to see anyone survive a hardcore tunnel for I'd guess over 90% of the player base.
The counter play requires understanding the timers and chase mechanics. You can force the Pig to pause your timer by making her stand up to stop you working on a box and pause your timer. If you play to waste as much of the Pig's time as possible, you can absolutely escape and is something that high skilled players prove often.
It is way harder than trying to avoid any other killer... It is not about how to win the game for the team and get 3 people out, as that is fairly simple because the strategy is not strong. But against any other killer you can loop them and you don't just die because a timer is set to 0…i don't see how you would be able to compare these two scenarios... As those other killers you need to at least know how to use the anti loop, whereas this strategy on pig just allows you to mindlessly follow the guy with the trap on.
The difference is still how easy it is and how little can be done about it, against tunneling in general you can use certain perks, but nothing helps you here because your timer decreases nonetheless.
The only way to get out is to somehow live long enough to get the hatch, or make her lose you, which should never happen anyway.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727671#Comment_3727671
True enough, but doesn't regular tunneling with Nurse or Blight or Pyramid Head feel exactly the same way, with far less you can realsitically do about it?
The Pig trying to kill you over the course of 2 minutes and 30 seconds in a specific cheesy way, is no where near as effective as being repeatedly slapped down in 20s off hook.
At least with Pig, you can know the strategy to cost her as much as possible for doing it, vs. Blight or Nurse where you also failed to help your team escape as well.
Pigs strategy is basically a guaranteed kill, I would not say that those other killers have the same result? Sure chase times on average will be faster, but you can outplay them in chase if you are Good enough, even the best player in the world cannot avoid getting killed by the beartrap when pig chases him the entire time... I don't really think it is comparable.
It is not about being effective or not, but that it leaves the survivor with quite literally nothing to do about it... Unless you have some niche perk that allows you to not leave scratchmarks or what not she will be right behind and you will not make it out.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726323#Comment_3726323
Pig is a slowdown killer, she lacks strong 1vs1 mechanics and instead relies on disorganisation to win, which means like Pinhead, the way to beat her is teamwork. She is good vs. your average SoloQ, but really struggles against high skill SoloQ or SWF players.
If the Pig is crouch tunneling you with head traps, she is not pressuring gens, this does mean you are in the hands of your team, but she is absolutely beatable. It takes 150s for a trap uninterrupted to kill. If she insists on ensuring you can't search a Jigsaw box, she isn't getting the rest of her head traps out or slowing gen progress.
If you managed to avoid her first head trap for just a minute or so, you should have good progress on 2, maybe 3 gens. Ignoring 150s of gen time should mean the Pig is losing 3 generators AT LEAST.
In this scenario its important to know that being downed, or being on hook is the safest place for you to be, where your timer isn't progressing. Waste 70s of her time and then commit to a jigsaw box, no matter if she tries to stop you or not. If she doesnt stop you, you may get lucky and get tbe trap off, but if she does the timer will stop. The time to hook will be another 15s or so, and then you have another 50s to be unhooked, then another 80s before the timer finally pops.
The strat is to basically use the fact the Pig isn't pressuring anyone to rush gens as fast as possible. All survivors leave and the last tries to get hatch.
The truth is you're not likely to survive this scenario .. but you can sure as hell make it virtually impossible for the Pig to win the game.
It is not about the whole thing being too strong, but more about it feeling like bullying towards that one survivor that has no option of making it out alive… As he will either get hooked and hard tunneled with an active head on or dies to the trap. Obviously it is not strong hard tunnel someone for 3 min straight so their head pops…
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727594#Comment_3727594
It doesn't matter if the bleedout timer ends the match eventually. If you read the OP's post, they said the Wraith was walking over them, just ringing the bell. Whatever the reason for slugging, there is zero reason for that kind of behavior.
That's just bm, but falls under the same category as t-bagging, which is also not reportable…
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727571#Comment_3727571
Griefing: Deliberately and intentionally irritating, harassing, annoying or trolling other players.
Bleeding survivors out for no reason other than wasting their time qualifies as griefing. Griefing is a reportable offense. It's just that BHVR don't enforce it, which is an entirely different problem.
That's a little bit of a logical flaw… You cannot say it counts as griefing, and griefing is reportable, but it does not get enforced and is therefore not reportable… You can argue that it should be reportable, but slugging/bleeding out is not reportable.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727317#Comment_3727317
Right, but has bHVR given any word on more than needs to be done on this gap?
I think in the last q and a yes, not entirely sure though, but like I said before if they don't then it is what it is... I don't really have many expectations for them, considering they accidentally removed the anti aliasing option and took like 4 years to bring it back... But one can still hope.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727302#Comment_3727302
What? Why are you assuming that was their motivation for doing it? They said to bridge the gap not "equal oppertunities."
That is just phrasing. Whether you call it bridging the gap of existing differences, evening out the tools they have or just "equal opportunities", that is all pretty much the same. Sure the degree to which you bridge this gap differs, but in the end is about balancing the differences out.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727202#Comment_3727202
huh? Yeah I dont recall seeing bHVR saying they would give SoloQ and SWF equal opportunities.
Considering they added the hud to even the grounds in opportunity between those two I would assume that is still their intention. The goal should always be same tools not same outcomes…
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727241#Comment_3727241
I mean, yeah, but again theres no reason or gain to point out some one elses mistakes.
Oh no! They didnt go for the save when they shouldve! womp womp. no need to booboo wa wa about it
Sure such mistakes are pretty much useless to point out… But for example stuff like try to crouch demo shred or whatever… Specific plays they might not know exist… Macro mistakes only make sense when it is stuff not about timing but knowledge in general, for example not doing a specific generator at the beginning, for example main building on saloon.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727235#Comment_3727235
I mean those who are try to "correct" other peoples gameplay were most likely doing something wrong as well, and its not like theyre open to criticism either at that point.
So yeah Imma blame em,
Just because you yourself made mistakes does not mean that the mistakes you are remarking did not happen, both sides should be open to criticism.
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@shizzy_Pooh said:
I just played a match against a wraith, he started to tunnel at 5 gens, slugged me and another survivor we were the last two alive at 4 gens, and just left us on the ground the whole time until just barely before we were about to bleed out and then proceeded to hook us after wasting all that time after taking the game hostage by leaving us on the ground just walking all over us banging his bell. Since the anti face camp mechanic was made can there be a anti slugging mechanic? This is unacceptable that the killer can just bleed us out and there’s NOTHING a survivor can do about it.
In that case it is not holding the game hostage, because your timer is ticking down.
It might be annoying, but it is only for a short time so I guess just tab out and do something else in the mean time.