Remove the MMR cap.
I am sick and goddamn tired of getting multi-thousand hour survivor teams just because they keep whining about having long queues for being good at the game. MMR exists for a reason, if you're going to code the Matchmaking System to literally ignore it, then don't even ######### bother making it.
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Those "multi-thousand hour survivor teams" are spending a lot of time and money in the game. No way they won't cater to them. If you fell that you are going against those squad maybe adjust your build and playstyle. That can help you winning more games.
You could always Houston Texans it and tank for better games?
Or just remove mmr to begin with and bring back rank systems with maybe a few more to maybe 25
What's funny is how they had a functioning mmr system in the beginning, but made it useless because people complained about long queues and sweaty matches.
Like they might as well go back to old ranks. But they spent at least two years on an mmr system so they won't do it. Bhvr works under sunk cost fallacy. If they spend too much dev time on it, they aren't going to give it up. It's why they're still working on finisher Mori because they announced a Mori rework years ago, and they're not letting the dev time go to waste.
The rank system was terrible and made it incredibly easy to smurf (but then let's face it, that's the real reason everyone misses it).
MMR does its job of helping make sure genuinely new players don't go against highly experienced ones while their still learning the game. That's it. After that point, this game isn't deep enough for you to expect any matchmaking to give you people exactly at whatever you'd perceive to be a matching skill level. Besides, for all you know, those crack survivor teams you're complaining about are regularly getting stomped when they face high-tier killers.
My brother in Christ, I play Dredge. No amount of tuning is going to keep me from getting ######### on by death squads, and I refuse to play Nurse and Blyat.
At the highest level of play, survivors are far more powerful than anything ANY (yes even nurse) killer can ever bring. No killer will ever be able to stand a chance against a team like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtENJZ_z0zw&t=1sIf you keep killing survivors, your mmr is going to go up. Remove the cap? You will be facing them again in a week.
Tell that to the 500+ teams in a row Alf beat.
Was he playing against 500 teams that played like the ones in the video? If not, then it doesn't matter.
Good post OP, I agree with you. I was getting backfilled a lot into lobbies that killers dodged. Now if I join a lobby and people are already loaded in and ready, that's an instant dodge for me
This would leave to the streamers either sitting in extremely long queues or intentionally losing to derank for "content." So I doubt it'll happen.
Pretty much. Several months ago BHVR did a variety of MMR testing and gathered feedback before releasing the results. If I'm recalling correctly, the more accurate the SBMM, the longer the queue times. Those games were alot more fairer and closer in terms of skill, but there were queue times of like 10-15 mins.
Did those survivors beat Alf? If not, then it doesn't matter. See how easy that is.
Dowsey had more than 2 hours queue on Twins in the original test run.
How is it not easy to smurf in MMR? You can just die to endgame after an otherwise sucessfull match or let the survs escape after 8 hooks.
That's insane
Far more powerful than even Nurse? Guess which killer obliterated their streak and it was not even close... like I said: adjusting your build and playstyle can be the deciding factor. And how often do you go against those teams? Probably never since these survivors did this streak as some sort of an experiment. Nobody is going so tryhard in pubs like Hens winstreak squad.
I don't believe you that you go against death squads regularly, they aren't that common. And you don't get those squads by doing nothing. If death squads are that common for you you probably played for 4k every match so your MMR rises meaning that you getting those squads is actually MMR working as intended
You literally picked one of the best survivor groups in this whole game. And actually this group went against one of the most cracked nurse - and the nurse won, tied and lost to them. Check out Hens's group against Supaalf. Quite entertaining video even if we don't take into account this thread.
A comp Nurse player for one of the better teams at the time had a 4+ hour queue (Sweden). Yes, those queues are not tenable, but I also think BHVR hit the panic button way too soon in that regard. They're not willing to endure planned short term hiccups for long term benefits. There aren't going to be people in the stratosphere of MMR when there's no reason to be there in the first place. We have the same problem now, but their bandaid was the soft cap which introduces as many problems as it solves. But if you give people a reason to reach upper MMR or add SR, then you have the potential for more uniform matchmaking because you don't have to mess with the soft cap.
Supalf beat them and even stomped them in one game in midwich. Check his video my nurse vs 25 000h survivor team. He lost once when he used build they wanted.
This may be true, but I won't encounter them for a SIGNIFICANTLY longer amount of time, at which point I'll have actually had the practice necessary to counter them rather than being chucked into a match with people that have 5x my playtime because they're whining about having to wait to get into a match
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is balanced. God nurses are also rare, yet we keep nerfing her, even though the stats bear out that she isn't OP based on your logic, because nurse has the lowest win rate, we should actually be buffing her (devs are going for a 60% kill rate):
Yeah, now have the best trapper player in the world play trapper against them.
I never used killrates as an argument. Nurse is (basekit) by far the most powerful killer in the right hands and as you just showed on the top 5% MMR she has a killrate of over 60%. That Nurse that beat the squad was very strong and she had a build specifically made to secure at least 2 kills. It just shows me that if both sides pla at their full potential, the top tier Nurse is going to win. You know exactly why the killrate are not an accurate depiction of her true strength. A god tier Nurse is almost never losing games high killrate or not.
Exactly, so you agree then that we shouldn't balance the game around the "average" player right? I'm responding to this part in your post where you said:
And how often do you go against those teams? Probably never since these survivors did this streak as some sort of an experiment. Nobody is going so tryhard in pubs like Hens winstreak squad.So my question is simple. Do you balance this game around the "average" player, because that is what the vast majority of players are? Or, do you balance the game around top level players like hen, or alf who are able to win 500+ games in a row?
Just because they are not the sweatiest, most tryhard team doesn't mean a SWF is average. Even top tier SWF will not play like this. We need to balance around all players. You need balance for average, beginners and top tier. This is not a game like Rocket League, this is an asymmetrical horror game so there is not really a competitive nature thus you need to make this game enjoyable for good and bad players.
The problem is that there is almost no balance for top tier survivors.
If those 50+ win streak survivors had to play vs only 2200+ MMR killers then the game would be better balanced.
The MMR system is rigged because the effective cap is 1600.
Great, so based on the fact that BHVR wants average 60% kill rate (assuming 2% margin of error)...
Looks like we need:
MAJOR buffs:
Minor Buffs:
Minor nerfs:
And if you disagree, then you don't believe the game should be balanced around average players, you believe the game should be balanced around average SURVIVOR players, but balanced around the top tier KILLER players. Which simply shows that you are extremely biased.
So which is?
Do we:
1, I still think 60% is a mistake, but let's forget that for the sake of further discussion
2, sure. The killers you mentioned should probably get buffs. BUT only things that help average player and are useless for skilled killer (alternatively it can buff also best players, but they should get compensation nerf in some regards that are best used by best nurses). So in case of nurse - maybe make that brown addon showing you blink location basekit.
Ideally the game should be balanced for every mmr level. Sure there can be some killers that are training wheels for beginners (good in low mmr, bad otherwise), sure there will always be some killers that are just better at highest level of play. But there should never be a position where other side has no chance and just has to take L without any possible counterplay. I don't think we are there right now, but we were dangeriously close with knight and 3gen camping at one time (and we are still not far from it).
First of all everyone is biased in their own way. You can't change that. Also killrates are extremely inprecise for a killers balancing. Nurse in the top ranks is the most oppressive killer by far but a baby nurse won't get many kills and drains the statistics. If I would make balancing changes they would have to do with making her more beginner friendly while she stays almost the same for experienced players since they are already pretty successful in pubs. We need feedback from the community to see how problematic a killer is. Statistics are not enough.
Like I said: you can never make an asymmetrical horror game balanced. You always need to adjust things so nothing is going to be problematic. Balancing the game around top tier players is just as important as balancing the game around average players. In both cases the survivors and killers should never have the feeling that they are getting slaughtered every game and while the top tier players should have the feeling that they earned the kills/escapes the average and low tier players should not get the feeling that they have to tryhard every game.
Would survivor queue times even be that bad with uncapped MMR?
They'd be too busy stomping killers who tunneled their way to high MMR and who are otherwise terrible at the game. Like it's waaaaay faster and easier to reach Iri 1 (I know this isnt mmr itself, but just giving an example) as killer than survivor.
if anything, that may be why it's capped, to stop the race to the bottom.