Tunneling Fatigue
I've been playing all day today since I'm off work. Mainly been playing survivor. Every single game today as survivor, the killer has tunneled. If it's me, I had to switch to an anti-tunnel build just to buy some time for the others so they only get a 1K. If it's not me, I'm left with unhooking and trying to body block, or just letting them struggle. The killers will run off and start chase with someone else, then break chase and come back after a few seconds to check on the hook. Or you'll have someone like a Ghoul or Blight get out of anti-camp range but stay in line of sight so as soon as they see someone coming to unhook, they dart straight for the tunnel. I know I know. It's a survivor and killer debate. Someone like Alien, Springtrap, or Demigorgon just TPs right back (I know Alien doesn't tp, but you know what I mean. If survivors don't escape, they cry. If killers don't get a 4K , they cry…
But I'm telling you. This is getting old. Soon enough, if Behavior doesn't actually implement a decent anti-tunnel, more and more survivor mains will leave. Every friend I used to play with has left because that strat gets frustrating and old. I've even deleted the game a few times, but I've been playing since early 2017, so I do love the game at face value. I think that Behavior focuses more on new content for you to buy, as opposed to balancing the game for all sides. New perk after new perk after new perk…you can't balance the game if you're pathway is release content, release content, release content. And I'm aware about the rework on PTB. I think it was a little much, but I also think that the outcry from killer mains makes the point. The killer shouldn't be aware of an unhook. Perks like DS shouldn't run out so fast, and shouldn't deactivate if you decide to heal or get on a gen. There's a ton of ways to go about balancing. Instead, they introduce crazy mechanics. I just know that out of 20 or 30 games today, every killer has tunneled. That's wild. 2v8 got old fairly quick, but at least it was a nice escape the reality that is tunneling.
And just for clarification, I do think that the game can be killer sided at times, and survivor sided at others. Maps, OP killer, OP builds on both sides, solo que vs swf, etc…….I get it. I just remember when killers actually used perks like BBQ to get 12 hooks with max points and actually earn a 4k.
Anyways, just me venting. I know I'll have some negative comments. I don't read any responses to my posts here, though, so do your worst.
Comments
I really hate to say this but I agree with you. I am not a fan of tunneling, slugs or camping. However the more I have been playing killer the more I totally understand this. Just because a majority of players may not play like toxic a holes those few that do irritate the killer.
My thing is that they have allowed tunneling and other things for so long it has become a go to strategy. Never mind the plethora of aura perks it’s easier to dominate by getting the weakest player out.
A number of players left. Not meaning the game but left survivor side in general and it creates an unbalanced matchmaking.
Now when I play either side I am totally mismatched . I am either the sacrificial lamb or the survivors are just stronger than me. There is a huge player gap and that’s it. Not every person has a huge amount of time to learn every aspect of this game and they keep just adding rehashed perks. It’s time to trim the game. They can’t keep new players because solo is just terrible so who sticks around SWFs. They have a player toxic problem and it’s creating more players to shy away.
I didn't say anything about ties. I play to win. I just remember my opponenets are human and that none of this is very important so I don't need to do things that are known to make people miserable over a game. But I also care more about what goes on in the match than the outcome. The outcome is just numbers.
What's the point of a clean sweep acquired with trashy tactics? You didn't really earn a win through skill and cunning, you didnt really outplay them, you just exploited a bad system. I don't feel "handcuffed" by choosing to go for the unhooker rather than the unhooked. Both are a choice. I'm just not exploiting that bad system. I feel much more accomplished playing with good sportsmanship and winning. If I slug everyone at 5 gens I feel like I did nothing.
How though? The only way to do this is to have different buffers in place at different MMRs. Because if you have a sweat lobby and a chill lobby the sweats will just go to the chill lobby and smash the chill players.
If the game matchmakes players with killer who can slug or tunnel on 5 gens the player, it basically means this matchmakes never should happen. Because it can be everything - skill difference, extremely bad RGN, but not the fault of the player. If every survivor goes down in few seconds of the chase, do really player who playing other role have to spend his time on this match longer than needed? Why responsibility of the game provide fair challenge and good conditions is transferred on the shoulders of simple player? Artificially making match longer, where u clearly don’t experience anything except of huge disappointment from the game MMR?
For you, it's a trash tactic, for others, a valid strategy. Players aren't informed whether they're playing bad solo or against someone else. Everyone knows that numbers prevail, and so in an asymmetrical game, the four-player side will always have an initial advantage. Everyone knows there's only one killer in the game, and effective survivors are the only ones who truly control the game's balance. Killers are also well aware of the number of second-chance perks that give a second wind literally if their opponent loses, and they also may consider this unfair and trash tactic. They may consider it unfair when survivors hides for 10 minutes, deliberately avoiding any interaction for the sake of the hatch, just because sitting in a bush requires nothing rather than being in chase.
They may think of trash tactics as gen rushes when they've completed a standard chase in a minute, and they're down to 3-2 gens, after wich players like u gonna remind them they have to play "not according to trash tactics."
From perspective of survivor , I don’t feel anything in matches where half of the game I press m1 and leave. Because every match where hooks were spreading, it was either player stomping anyway and making unpleasant match even more longer, or killer struggled from the start and outcome is still evident. As survivor player, my personal fun is getting it through tight interaction with killer and when I feel I can be punished for mistakes, so game incentives playing me more careful. As survivor player, I have fun in efficiency and short outcomes, so the issue is when I play efficient, killers can’t allow himself to spread hooks, he’ll more likely lose no matter skill, because micro + macro is overperforming pure micro play. My fun in challenge that force me to learn loop better, but who I am to ask for my fun, indeed.
It's time to understand that what you consider trash and a lack of player empathy is very relative. The fact that you're trying to tie game outcomes and victories to the perception of player personality is trash for me, for example. It's trash when, instead of finally forcing BHVR to balance killers’ abilities and make the average game so that even a calm player doesn't have to face someone who's truly playing to win, they're blaming one side or the other. If, damn it, people started tunneling, and it's been going on for nine years, and it's a widespread phenomenon, then there must be some sense to it. And instead of trying to fight it like a plague, it would be a good idea to start trying to make the game evolve around it.
This argument is truly tiresome. Instead of even trying to create a satisfying environment for players, they're forced to come up with the worst-case scenario as excuse. As if the same thing isn't happening now. As if people don't write from time to time about some sweats and how annoying they are to the average player. Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them, instead of justifying lack of actions that some player might go and satisfy their ego by playing against less experienced players. Maybe just try. Well, or, in principle, then it’s time to stop complaining that some player comes into the lobby to play by the rules of soulless efficiency, and not your mood at all. But in the end, we choose the third option - to complain and demand primitive solutions in the form of calling entire part of player base trash and toxic. Classic.
Frankly in about half my killer games someone goes bot as soon as they get downed for the first time, throwing the game for the rest of the team
So someone gaining complete immunity till another survivor is hooked isnt able to be "weaponized"? Or gens are completely blocked wich auto loses you the game. Worst of all you didnt even need to tunnel for this its oh whoops ig i killed the sable that was on death hook after she ran into me ig im punished now...
What about chasing and downing survivors in an order THEY dont like is against the rules?
You mean like the parts of the patch that were trying to do that? With ideas like basekit OTR/Elusive and BBQ?
Because the point of a game is to play, not to just win in two seconds and leave. What is the purpose of that? If every game was three minutes long would you even play? Because I wouldn't.
Every single one, huh? They always end as a one sided stomp? Because, on my end, these are the closest matches. Hooks spread, gens pop, and everything comes down to the last gen or end game. That's way more thrilling than tunneling out the first unlucky person you see at 5gens to skew things in your favor.
Pretty sure almost everyone who isn't a rat, whether survivor or killler, agrees that ratting is trash. So yeah, agreed.
So the honor system? The game's already rather lacking in the honor dept. This needs to be done with a drastically better MMR that puts the correct people together, not with trust and goodwill.
The simple fact is a whole lot of people are unhappy. If you have a product where the majority consumer (since survivors are 80% of a match) is heavily unhappy, you might have to change it. If people try your product, say "I hate this" and leave, you aren't thriving. It's that simple. A product doesn't survive if it's audience dwindles from discontent. If they're trying to address it, it's clearly an issue.
Uh-huh.
What do you suggest?
Because I don't think self-sorting is going to do the trick when this community also had bubbas focusing black characters.
This changes don’t play around macro, and moreover, don't evolve around tunneling theme. It's hand holding on both sides to encourage mindless face unhooks and auto pilot chases. It's evolve around massive skill issue from average player, because BHVR for all these 9 years created generical perks system that completely discourge even an attempt to think in a trial. It's bs calling something like nerfed BBQ a good incentive and progressive play, because it's doing completely opposite. Same with haste and pop incentives.
Show me such game. It's not thrilling when 4 survivors failling in basic efficiency so killer have time to spread hooks. Such survivors either worse compared to killer in chase, or in efficiency. It's just u wish to picture it, because your faithful picture of fairness shatters as soon as u see actually skillful survivors who even without comms can accomplish basic objective.
You overestimate numbers of people that share your mindset, because it's forum with limited bias. People who giving u likes and loudly say approve are literal the same on every post, and u have mutual uncoucious agreement between each other. When PTB started, the people like u who supported this generic changes were in minority and still are. On every other media or even some local discord servers opinion of majority were completely different. You also ignore experience of playerbase from other servers, because for example in CIS or Asia almost NO ONE share your mindset.
Majority can be unpleased by many reasons. I’m also unhappy despite still having opportunity to tunnel. Because again, now I’m playing against perks and not players, MMR and RGN doesn’t make sense still and bugs are starting to be unforgivable. Being as unhappy as you doesn’t mean I share your point of view. This 80% of unhappy people u talking about includes different players and believe me, nor mine nor yours bias doesn't correlate with theirs. It was flaw of post with people who said tunneling is valid, now it’s flaw of posts with people telling about tunneling fatigue. It’s cyclic. Even among my friends, there are completely polar opinions about why they think the game is not fun for them. So, stop pretending your approach is the most faithful one, because it’s based on ignorance of PvP, challenges, and heavily focus on perception of your own fun. It's just your opinion, and not me, not you, shouldn't manipulate with “but majority approve my view”. Because it's a lie.
Providing daily rank mode with limited time for few hours in peak hours can help without drastically affecting queues if code it properly. It also can introduce more tight system for servers. But the problem, BHVR can’t create this, because it requires major rework of everything and even bans for specific stuff, which doesn't correlate with their policy of “freedom and will”. Somehow the only limiting the way how majority plays is their only excuse to break policy.
On other post I asked u to share with your PTB gameplay. So I can at least understand what u comprehend by “balanced” PTB incentives and fair pace of match between players with same skill. But u dodged, ignoring the fact that my offer was the first. When a demand is met with a counter-demand in an attempt to avoid having to answer for words, my desire to discuss anything with such people is reduced to zero. I already told u - I’m not going to invest in comments to discuss something with u
When my words getting neglected as soon as it stops being convenient to answer on it, I simply avoid to talk. Because more words from me would be neglected, and more answers from u would be rain down on my head
But just to say - when u cancel any proposes of actually meaningful QoL due to existence of bottom of fanbase because they are toxic, at the same time demanding other QoL for the same bottom tier like Solo Q who sandbaggs each other, constantly DC and usually even don’t run meta despite their vulnerable position, nothing actually meaningful in so called QoL will appear
So you're going to reject a perfectly valid question because of a grudge you have with me personally?
I haven't shot anything down here, I asked how you want to accomplish it. @cogsturning highlights a very real concern with self-selection: What's to stop a killer (or a swiffer, for that matter) from dropping into the casual queue, kitted to the gills and sweating their behinds off for a landslide win?
I think I have enough reasons for finding you pretty disrespectful person, and it is definitely better just ignore you as much as you ignore something I ask about. Yep
I asked a very reasonable question and you launched into a tirade against me, personally. It's not my grudge that's interfering here.
You also answered the question to someone else, in another post that you did not @ me in, and you didn't quote the post or refer to it at all. I assume that you are referring to this:
And I actually think that this is a decent idea, though I have my reservations about time-gating it. It is true that this would funnel people a bit more and help to filter out the try-hards a bit better, but it'd also block out people that might want to play more competitive matches simply because the ranked mode's timetable doesn't line up with their own.
I am actually significantly less concerned about the idea of reworking everything, because if this ranked mode were to prove that it requires it, then it's something that would need to happen regardless of the existence of a ranked mode, so it wouldn't be any extra work-load specific to ranked mode.
If it's broken, it's broken, and needs to be fixed whether it's in ranked or not.
I don't think this would solve the entire issue, and I don't think it'd preclude the need for a tunnel-specific balancing address, but I do think it's worth a shot.
One singular person's experience isn't proof. The premise of your demand itself is faulty, and it's ridiculous to expect that anyone is obligated to dance to whatever whims you have. Not to mention that it was a non-sequitur to my argumentation.
You tend to get a lot of questions that are rhetorical in nature when someone is challenging your rhetoric, yes.
If the killer’s playing grim and leaves for such short window with a high-mobility killer— and an straight an insta unhook happens, that’s a huuuuge survivor misplay. Of course a nurse turns right back if she’s in range with two blinks. Why wouldn’t she? Bad plays and big misplays on the survivor side shouldn’t be ignored.
i dont play dump and blind only cuz i play something strong at this moment.
Same reason why killers don't bring lightborn because every SWF is bringing flashlights for flashlight saves
just go down in a smarter area, not between important gens in a high value area and dont insta unhook? not to hard.
The issue is that that all of your arguement about PTB - that u find every incentives fair and new system balanced, yet can’t prove it besides hypothetical speech. Just be honest - did u even play that PTB? On both sides. Did you encounter team that matches your skill?
U also told about 40% rate being underpowered. Yet u ignore that it is soloQ and devs aiming at that number for the average play. So IT SHOULD BE as it is now and tunneling or solo Q doesn’t stop u for having this average number. U can’t provide 50% escape rate for solo without making gameplay stupidly lazy on survivor side to the point u get handholded, because this solo Q heavily ignore any meaningful matchmake and usually show the worst gameplay u can possibly imagine out of possible.
U can’t buff all killers at the same time just because majority of these killers are belong to the bottom of tier list AND u can't nerf all killers just because majority playing solo Q. U either touch something specific, or don’t touch already broken thing at all.
The only way to create “balance” u wish to see - making game even more broken on top play, and complete lack of skill from survivor side, encourage stagnation of progressing and babysitting. Having endurance for 30 seconds requires even less skill than tunnel. It requires NOTHING and cost NOTHING for average player being bad. And seeing u tell about impossibility to win the game even with antitunnel perks and “hypothetically” compare tunneling with perks that works as auto kill shows why u so craving for such “balance”. No wonder why u avoid showing your gameplay and start to find another excuse about irrelevance of personal experience (even if it's your own lol). It’s not about my whims (because u simply unable to satisfy it), it’s just because u can’t find actual basis of proving your own words beside rhetorical questions and hypothetical speech. I told u. I have game records. I can show them, but only when question I asked first would be answered first.
Yes. The average player. Average being majority, people who want to play with friends a couple times a week or have a few matches after work, not who devote their lives to this game as though it were a religion. If the game caters solely to its obsessives in the top 5%, it's cooked.
Weird how you assume I've never seen these people.
So my opinion is a biased minority, but you speak for a whole server?
Funny enough, tunneling doesn't hit me that hard, that often. My desire for change has more to do with the mass unhappiness I see regarding tunneling, not just here, but in other places too (I do—and this is a fact—have access to the internet.) Slugging is actually the bigger issue for me, personally, but tunneling is the one more people are being burnt out by.
The majority? Most of my survivor matches don't feature hard, early-game tunneling. If it was the majority then that would, indeed, be game breaking to change it. But it's not, so the game just needs adjustments to discourage those who do. No one will take your precious tunneling away, they're just trying to make it less easy to achieve a 3v1 at early game.
Discourage way of effective play and outplaying opponent? If tunnel on 5-4 gen happened, it was a mismatch from the start.
Okay. I can understand this complaints towards S tier killers. But it is S tier and u work with S tier only then. U don’t do global change.
So, discourge… discouraging… So, punishment? How it works. Hm…. Somehow I was recently hardtunneled by Nemesis. It took 3 gen. Without anti tunnel perks, and he proxy camped me even. Not a lot of sources, my teammates escaped with 2. It was a tie and he was humbled in EG showing his salt after me saying GG to my teammates and regretting I didn’t loop him better.
Conclusions:
— Was he discouraged? Yes
— Was he punished for early tunnel? Yes
— Was it fun for me at least? Yes.
So, it turns out you can have all of this already just by playing better than opponent. Wow… Sounds reasonable. Why responsibility from discouraging my opponent should be shifted from my team on game system?
Don’t u think making this “discourage” artificial can heavily backfire?
My whole comment was erased unfortunately, but I think it’s enough here. Just more few words.
I’m also average player. Less than 1k, mid MMR, 50/50 players with solo Q incline, but had experience of SFW. Don’t play S tier killers. 40% -50 ER, 60-65% KR. I also work and study, play for fun. Sounds average and ideal of what BHVR were looking to. Why I am being average player being spoke out from you and u say u speak for my fun? Because it’s a lie. I don’t find your position neither fair or fun.
Turns out your “average” player is only player who agree with you. You don’t count player as “average” when he talks like this:
It's the easiest playstyle people tends to be attracted to the easier things especially in a pvp game, just tunnel with a endgame build and you'll have a pretty chill and easy time idk how people can play like that tho it sounds very boring and the skill ceiling is in the gutter..
When hope gets nerfed next patch tunneling is even gonna get stronger tbh.
how can you weaponize having no collision and being unable to do anything to stay immune? i am curious.
If you get pubnished for this … what do you think is intended? So sad this immoral killer bias.
You do see the problem here, right? RIGHT?
No, because the thing you did to 'punish his tunnelling' would have discouraged his alternatives the same way.
Whatever discourages tunnelling must discourage specifically tunnelling, and not just be a blanket beats-all strategy. For example, just slamming gens doesn't make tunnelling less attractive, since it has the same impact (Or even greater) on non-tunnelling strategies, despite the fact that it does reduce the success rate of tunnelling.
To discourage tunnelling, the tactic must instil in the killer a realisation that the game would've gone over better for them if they hadn't tunnelled. Simply running him for longer doesn't do that, and in fact accomplishes the opposite, if these forums are to be taken as a barometer. Plenty of killers on here have stated that long chases and short gens compel them to tunnel. So taking them for longer chases and shorter gens would then likely increase tunnelling, not decrease it.
But it wouldn’t. U don’t have this alternative. Base kits from ptb wasn’t enough. U still didn’t create good incentive
If killer discouraged by game system only for being deprived of most effective game style artificially, hence no point in PvP. It should be single player then. When I want system discourage my play, I go to Bloodborne, Silent Hill 2 RE, Resident Evil. When I want being discouraged by player (or discourge myself) I play multiplayer.
That's an entirely different argument from 'you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying harder'.
Why not? This has been the game's standard for ages. On both sides, 'most effective game styles' have been nerfed repeatedly. Why is tunnelling the one exception?
Most of these tunneling most stop by any means people often dont see it from killers side if killer isnt very strong or gets upper hand then he gets punished more by spreading hooks and not tunneling if he deoesnt run perks which require to get every survivor hooked to get strong effects like grim, noway out or most favorite pain res but all these perks work best on killers which can get those fast downs relatyvely fast or in the middle of the game which is why weaker killers are better just with more time waste sliwdowns like corrupt,deadlock,deadmans which are easier to tgrigger and buy you more of time compare to perks that you must get hooks and even good godly pop is not good for low mobility killer which cant use it that effective as high mobility killers which can down fast and use the pop for its full potencial. Spreading hooks gives killer less preasure and survivors more time on game to focus on their objective and strong perks like dead hard which is hard for many killers on weaker side to deal with especialy aganst survivors which are good and got strong map in their favor. Thats why killer must be rewarded for hooking different survivor and survivors antitunnel should get buff, devs are aiming there but from this ptb the tunneling punishments combined with all antitunnel effects were too much so they need to decide which will stay and which will be bad to add to live or weaken them and tunbelibg punishments should dissable on 1-2 gens remaining because there isnt much time for killer to 12 hook or atleast implement some reasonable system that will turn them on or off depending on killers hook number or kills and survivor gens done. Down this post as much as you want but Idc down votes arent good arguments.
Its logical if most survivors are trying to get one gen done and killer downs someone there and hooks him near gen remaining survivors near it must hide and wait or leave because its logical they are killers prey and he like all hunters,predators is where his prey is if they try to dance around that highly progressed gen and hooked survivor they must count with consciences and in this moment its slugging, survivors must think how killer thinks too try to read him like in mindgames you unhook someone and two times he came back so dont healagain under hook because he will most likely come back so go away and heal somewhere safe this kind of readind and guessing will help you a lot like in chase you tried to greed oslett but he is brute forcing them so you will stop greeding and play more safe and other way around this is key to get better same for killer in order to get survivors you have to think where will they go and predict what will they do. Will they doge your hatchet right or left, go straight and greed it?
Its rare to get game where survivors dobt have ds,dead hard or otr. Same chance for me as getting twins that dont slug.
No. It isn’t. When u expect game by force discourge effective style by whatever reason, u have to provide meaningful compensation. Otherwise this discouragement should come from opponent.
Heal meta back again, Gen rush still exist.Tunneling isn’t special and was already nerfed as well by perks and base kit BT. Moreover, compate to 5 to 6 patches current gen rush much more stronger, because every counterplay in terms of perks were triple nerfed. This effectiveness was nerfed from both sides to the state it requires more skill than hiding in bush or bringing mori offering. The game’s standard actually subtly changed. It’s a drastic difference from old play style pace and current one
It doesn’t mean gen rush and heal isn’t the most effectiv strats despite continuous “nerfs” (at least because majority of the nerfs was reverted) still. Because they are the most effective play style anyway. Same should stay with tunneling. U don’t punish effective approach because other side don’t like it. Because they would never like effectiveness from their opponent
It will take a meaning to punish specific style if it
So please, don’t even try to put stealth here again. U stll can do stealth, but your opponent has an optional counterplay now, so u can’t do 4. thing. I already answered on this. U still can do stealth effectively as well, it is just became as harder as resetting, or tunneling .
I still want to get answer why I have to be discouraged by logical and effective strat from game and not player. By “why” - I don’t mean talking about 9 years of repetitive mistake that brought us to this dialogue.
Yup… but this is exactly the huuuge mistake I keep seeing on survivor side. It shouldn’t happen. If someone goes down at/around the first gens, the entire first chase gets devalued. Even worse: paletts are gone.. for.. nothing.
and any killer who can count ans has a feling for time.. knows there’s nothing far along anywhere else. proxy camping and hard tunneling to secure another fast down in that same area is the most logical play. and a good early is soo important :( Survivors are strongest early.. and we just threw our whole early game. No killer with is going to give thatpressure up now. At least not the killers I face. And h.. i think, that’s fair. The mistake was on our team, and now we pay for it. The killer will defend that zone—why wouldn’t he? Math says those are probably the farthest gens, and he’s already got a hook there.
I see this go wrong in soloQ all the time, even when people have good micro and are solid in chase. That’s why in soloQ or duo I try to take first chase (or my duo mate does) specifically to avoid this scenario. Even if the randoms can run, I just see survivors make this mistake too often. One bad early and the match slips, because proxy camp into hard tunnel becomes super tempting for the killer.
big oouf huge mistake i always see Don’t give the killer an early down at the hot gen cluster. If it happens, expect this damn hardcore proxy + tunnel and .. most people doesnt do this : rotate out— (sometimes they just start greeed after the unhook the gens in this arera, or.. heal under hook, they hover the nearly gens, sometimes injured... they dont Take the chase away from the cluster when possible,.. its so important to spread progress at this pont, but they often feed the killer the same zone twice.
this is a huuge misplay.. but.. do we need this base handholdings for surv to counter this?? id k.. i think.. soloq needs a way more info to avoid stuff a swf calls out… but.. idk.. the moment in soloq i get the first chase, we have most of the time a good match… and this is not because i´´m rthe best chaser in the world.. i just try to avoid situatons like this. (i have good headphones tbh, i hear gens from very far away.. not everyone does. so.. y.. : soloq needs a bit more info there… swf call out this stuff anyways)
I can't even decipher what those screenshots are or what they're saying.
I also at no point have said I think the changes should have gone through as is, only that changes to the game are needed.
Do you feel this way about every change in this game? One of my favorite perks was recently changed, messing up my build and discouraging me from playing how I want. Yet I had to accept it and change my build. It's almost like things change over time and you just need to adjust.
First - what exactly u don’t understand? The way people feel that it’s not fair other side receive catch up tool while they don’t? The way how average player is not what u actually consider? The way how some people who finds this changes good and balanced (Mulder clearly refers to someone as name/nickname), blatantly lying and it was proved on their game as soon as they faced decent players?
I do. My killer was changed in a way I didn’t ask so. They justified his movement speed nerf by adding two ridiculous iri add-ons, while his speed already was low and he has one of the longest cooldown from his power + the easiest power for dodging
What I can do? Because average player don’t want to learn play as/against him properly, I have to live with these two “funny” addons that are using as excuse for me playing in different way. Before I were able to allow myself using his M2 more frequently, now I have to use boring M1 more. Just because other players since the start used only boring M1 and zoning
I didn’t support nerf of fog vials in a way that happened - I think we have mutual agreement in community that it was bad balancing from BHVR. So please, don’t try shift goalpost to this theme.
I will repeat again - if it’s PvP and multiplayer, game should be balanced around effective strats as a way to encourage the way who performed this effectiveness in a best way. It’s player’s duty to counter effective tunneling by skill without reliance on game doing this job instead of them. U don’t ask for difficulty adaptability in multiplayer, just because previously failed in proper matchmaking. U told yourself - tunnelling doesn’t cause breaking balance issue. It’s all about pure sentiment, but the changes people asking for affecting core balance directly. U can’t ignore core balance just because “average” player u imagined don’t care about balancing. Because it’s devs duty, but it seems BHVR working currently by pure marketing policy, forgetting about how to design games.
If u really want to discuss “ethical” part of tunneling - why u don’t look from other perspective?
It’s in psychological nature of assym genre when u play alone against team .
Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Killer, despite being considered as “power” role, will always feel under pressure due to being presented as minority in a match. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many assym games due to weird devs decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to "target". Because it's logical. "I'm alone and it's 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it... probably making it 3 vs 1". It’s a natural way to balance 1 vs 4 imbalance issue where 4 will always overperform just due to their quantity.
Tunneling is a way to deal with pressure that was created by nature of assym gameplay.As well as when survivors’ team up and gen rush making them to help with their own pressure. Problem is that solo q struggle with it, so it’s reasonable to help with this specific part. Since the start of the game the match is on ticking clock that reminds u about losing control. On both sides
https://youtu.be/QO2FKH5Cnsk?si=5UPmY7viWCpDdElhSo again. Killer showed toxicity, hitting u on hook and hardtunneling just because? Humble him through gameplay. That’s how u actually discourge toxicity - showing their irrelevance and moderating precisely. U could, if u are actually good player and don’t deny meta. Issue with moderating is because it doesn’t actually works in this game. Toxic players should be a precise deal, and not affecting game balance. That’s why better grading and proper rating system needed.
This video clearly shows why tunneling is less issue when we talk about “fun factor”
Basically it still counted the survivor as having a hitbox. Meaning they can go inside the killers model to force an m1 onto them (because they didnt remove m1 collision from the collision removal for some reason... they can also still drop pallets etc
This is why hard tunneling early is a major problem. There is no situation where you can't justify it.
You bring up first chase, and specifically mention that first chase is important for the killer, and you're right. Survivors are strongest early game, and the killer starts the match with zero pressure.
But that's always true.
So let's look at first chase
As you mentioned, if first chase is fast, then "proxy camping and tunneling" mean that there's almost no gen progress, the survivors likely can't get enough done to recover the early elimination, and the choice is to camp and tunnel.
But, if the first chase isn't fast, and takes too long, then 3 other survivors have zero pressure, and nothing else to do other than gens, and "gens fly". In this case, the killer needs a comeback mechanic to gain ground on the match and recover... So the answer here is to proxy camp and tunnel the first survivor out.
And there's the problem: all roads lead to proxy camping and tunneling the first hook. No matter what the survivors do here, the killer is going to proxy camp and tunnel as what they consider is the "best play".
And, for "killers who can't count or have a feeling for time", they will finish a chase quickly at 5 gens, and not be able to do the mental math and time clock, and assume that 4 gens are "nearly complete", leading to the same "proxy camp and tunnel" conclusion.
The problem here is that tunneling early shouldn't be a game winning option immediately, right out the gate. There should be some consideration of "well that chase was easy, but instead of forcing this player out immediately, let's have an actual match with gameplay". These are comeback mechanics that are always available, all the time, and that is the problem.
And the only way that consideration happens is if there's a downside to tunneling at 5 gens, and a consideration that doesn't matter as much at 1-2 gens.
Yes, it is. Your initial argument is that you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying them. When I point out that that isn't deterring tunnelling at all, since this outplay would affect its alternatives more, claiming that the PTB (Which wasn't mentioned in either your or my argument) does not provide an alternative is a complete non-sequitur. We weren't talking about the PTB, we were talking about the current gamestate.
That's disingenuous, because it's a different one. Old one was a self-heal meta, this one is an altruistic healing meta. Just because both of them involve healing doesn't mean they're the same.
Once again, in a different form. Folks used to group up with Prove Thyself and it got nerfed. Folks used to slam BNPs, they got nerfed.
Yes, the things that are currently in the game are not the things that got removed. They also happen to not be the things we're talking about.
Except it has remained the most effective tactic since the game's inception, copping some nerfs (And a buff) in 6.1. Since then, in the span of three years, it has been nerfed twice more, with DS being brought back to 5 seconds, and the release of Shoulder the Burden, and it has also been buffed once more with DS being nerfed back to 4 seconds. These are slap-on-the-wrist changes that have done nothing to change the game at all. Tunnelling remains effectively undisturbed and still comfortably sits on high as it has for 9 years.
Critical distinction between the two, though: Survivors have to stay alive and do the gens as fast as possible, they physically do not have any alternatives. Tunnelling does have an alternative, because there's no mandate to make the game a 3v1 as fast as possible. It is currently the most effective strategy, but that doesn't mean it has to be. It is perfectly possible to make a game where it is less advantageous for the killer to make the game a 3v1 as fast as possible.
Except we do and we already have.
They always had counterplay. It's not like hiding was insurmountable at all. To go by your own rules:
And no, hide-and-seek is not 'no interaction'.
Buuuut, if the killer picks up any of their plethora of new intel perks, you do get punished extremely severely, which has effectively deterred stealth as a gameplay plan. We have not seen anything nearly this aggressive towards tunnelling. By argumentation that you, yourself have employed, the changes to tunnelling have not shifted the needle at all.
Survivor meta has been stirred up and reshaped over and over again, while tunnelling has remained static for almost all of 9 years of DBD.
Because it -can't- be discouraged by the player. If you can beat a tunnelling killer, you can beat that killer even harder if they're not tunnelling. That is something you have effectively argued in the past.
So how is the player supposed to discourage tunnelling?
That’s the big difference between players who escape a lot and those who don’t. It’s not just only about having a “good chase.” good survivors know the map, know the important gens, do those gens, and if they’re the first chase, they avoid going down in that area so the killer can’t convert it into pressure (this hook + high-value gens nearby situatins).
That’s why I actually like taking first chase as survivor: I keep some control. I pick where I run and where I’ll go down. I’d rather go down a bit earlier in a safe, low-value area than hand the killer a hook next to important gens getting pressured. Otherwise the entire “progress” from my "long" chase is wasted. the gens are lost. This gens that super hard to get done in the endgame.
if you play around this, you rarely get those “team dead at 4–5 gens” games.
What i see on average: the first player dies around 2 gens left (and the killer often doesn’t know how close the second-to-last gen is). that’s the baseline.
in that world, tunneling isn’t a comeback mechanic anymore …. as long as survivors respect and learrn their macro. (this is a biig mistake most of the time) but what i see too: if the killer doesn’t tunnel early, it’s usually not worth it for most killers to start tunneling midgame. survivors who pay attention punish that: if the killer flips to “tunnel for comeback” midgame, they just lose. (everything else is just a gamble for this killer)
The huge problem is that 80percent of players ignore map state and team macro. they run nowhere in particular, try to use a single pallet, and only focus on their chase.. just run and drop, try to just survive as long as possible.
idk.. survivors probably need more info (and teams already call this stuff out), and new players need map awareness training. stuff like: “okk.. kay, this gen is safe .. maybe we leave it for late game?” or "Dn’t go down near our key-gen cluster.”
The biggest and best counter against hard tunneling is : learn how to use the map to ur advantage, not only : Last long as possible in every chase. (y this is th efun part of playing survivor, i get it, ..but sometimes u have to avoid spezific tiles and strong loops as long as people pushin the gens over there)..
same with basic gamesense: I loose many times matches even if i manage to go down and get hooked in a for surv strong aarea and the killer has to cross the map the moment he want to protect his gens.. what happens? insta unhooks, .. against S tier , super early against nurse in blink range and so on.. … )
Also the part that keeps getting overlooked in that reply, which is offensive 3v1ing. I can't believe that's an actual concern.
DBD effectively is more in the realm of PVE, given how much the game relies on poor matchmaking and steamrolls. It even has scaling difficulty in 2v8, the mode that is easily the most highly praised. You might not agree, but the game is begging for more and better catchup mechanics.
If game is straightforward broken, it doesn’t change initial genre. It can’t be PvE because people facing people. It's just that some people like to manipulate terms in an attempt to justify something.
The way how people justify this is ridiculous. People build this sentiment because this game doesn’t provide adequate learning curve and prefers to give an imitation of skill, like broken killer powers or second chances perks. Their sentiment matters more than balance because they can’t learn how to play the game and wait for system babysitting them when they counter someone who plainly play better or don’t deny meta. Whatever. They won’t start to play better, core issues never would be fixed if indulging players whims. The average player in DBD can’t hold any competition , hence we have tunneling hysteria and dash killer slop.
This will motivate players who doesn’t fit to this forum’s sentiment to turn off any kind of empathy for others, just because some part of players willing to go against balance and logic for a minute of pseudo-fun made it first for them. If, instead of solving the problems and defining that PvP always stands as form of competition, they continue to create workarounds to maintain a low skill floor for players, the gap between sweats and the average fan will grow exponentially, become more acute, and matches will become more unbearable. Matches will be a hundred times worse, and you'll be playing a simulator rather than actual challenge. Because the average player, nurtured by years of inept balance, doesn't know how to play, while some win chasers is given with broken toys like Ghoul or "anti-tunnel." And since MMR with such a message won't appear, it's the average player who will have to deal with it. If that's what they want, go ahead. I'll see how, three years from now, despite all the changes, the same people will still be complaining that nothing has changed.
BHVR doesn’t have issues because their game is in assemtry genre. They have issues because they trying to ignore PvP key aspects to indulge so called “average player”. This is marketing then and not some sort of actualy competent design. No wonder they fired so many people and only who created this issue from the first day of game existence left. If tgey’ll continue feeding so much, one day or another DBD won't even need a competitor. They'll kill themselves, their game, and their fan base. It’s already rotting
Idc if I’ll be banned from this forum for such blatant speech, because if what about the forum is - specific sentiment that ignores balance, I’ll be glad to move on.
No I literally don't understand 1) a garbled screenshot with arrows drawn on it and random words inserted in and 2) what these out-of-context screenshots even are. Some random opinion somewhere from the depths of the internet? Okay cool, we have lots of those everywhere.
At mid MMR they absolutely don't out preform. And It's not natural, it's artificial. If the game needed a 3v1 setup to be balanced, then it would be 3v1. 3v1 is a massive unbalance.
I play killer so I am the other perspecrive. If I lose because I let a good looper waste my time or I didn't pressure gens efficiently, that's on me.
Yes indeed, what can you do? You have to adjust, don't you? You're not just going to quit because something you liked was changed, right? You're still playing.
Weird how I'm also an average player with an average KR and mixed opponents, and I manage it without tunneling and giving lots of mercy hatches and free outs. Like I said, most people in low and mid don't rely on tunneling, and those that do are usually terrible at everything else. If you can't win against mids without tunneling maybe the problem is you.
Just went through all my responses in this thread and didn't see any mention of this. What are you referencing here?
I'm so tired of people posting videos. I'm not going to waste my time watching this content creators take. Form your own thoughts and write your own
I never said that it was PVE, but that it's in the realm of it. I could see it becoming more like RE6 or L4D2 in time if it continues to be as one-sided as it tends to be. More mechanics to push it into a middle ground would pull it away from that.
I started playing a couple of months ago and played everyday. I'm new to playing video games in general but played with friends and got better. (Not good, but better) I appreciate a good killer even if it mean I lose, at least the game is fun. You absolutely CAN win as killer without resorting to unfair gameplay.
I stopped playing a couple of weeks ago. I was so very tired of tunneling, slugging and at times it seemed that the perks enabled would be so strong it was impossible to play as a survivor. At first I thought it was just me, but every game it was happening to everyone else as well.
I know it can never be perfect, and someone out there will exploit anything that is put into place. That being said, if you must tunnel or slug to win then you aren't really winning AND winning is way too important to you.
I came on today excited for a change. First game, all 4 survivors downed, and then hooked with no chance of doing anything. Even if one could have gotten off the hook, it would not have done any good. Game was over in less than 5 minutes. So I shut it off and will again, not be playing.
I would also like to add, I have health problems and playing games allowed me to interact with friends and family and have something to do while stuck at home ( and sometimes in bed) for weeks on end. It's very sad that the game has become a chore rather than a joy.
Unfortunately, the devs have chosen, time and again, to pritorize the experiences of skilled and experienced players over new and less skilled ones. I've been playing games my whole life, and online PVPs for 15-20 years and I've never seen a game with a learning curve like this one, particualrly for the survivor role. Hop on a CoD game for the first time and it'll be rough but you'll get the idea pretty fast, and you'll get kills immediately. Baby survivor is just a death simulator. There's little satisfaction and a lot of confusion.
I whole heartedly recommend making additional online friends. It's a lot easier to bear the role if you have people to laugh with and not take it so hard.
It only works against weak or unwilling-to-learn player … too greedy, too over-aggressive, and not paying attention to macro. against people with some game sense who don’t overextend, the strategy falls apart.
and the moment we balance around players who don’t want to learn or develop macro to counter tunneling, you’d have to buff almost every killer to keep up at higher mmr lobbies. survivors would like that even less. (not that is evry time needed, but it is the tool to counter over-aggressive and to greedy gameplay - otherwise survivors have a freebie there. What happens then we saw @ the last ptb )
Many would rather go “come to me, killer, I’ll troll” or “I’ll slam the gen right in your face, I don’t care.” Those are survivor misplays; you shouldn’t balance the game around that.
once rotations, some basic gameplay, and teamplay are on point, the strategy falls apart. (soloq need some more info at this point)
but..
just play the game a bit more then 70 hours in +4 years (thats just no time in dbd - and mybe not surv only) and u will learn some counterplay.
( i mean.. something like.. A simple ping wheel would already do wonders for soloQ newbies. Also a hud imrpovement.. cue that roughly color-codes hook distance per teammate .. just highlight the closest and second closest. someting like this)
You have failed to illustrate this in any way, shape or form.
I did. I provided screenshots and povs from my matches, shared my statics, everything. From your side: nothing. I even offered custom games.