Punishing killers for completing their objective?
So killer is getting severely punished for completing their objective? I get that being tunneled sucks, and I personally try to avoid it, but if the same survivor is playing poorly/annoyingly and constantly coming into contact with me, I shouldn’t have to pretend I don’t see them like I’m playing hide and seek with a 3 year old.i could understand adding the survivor buffs that help escape unhook scenarios, but adding the severe handicapping of a killer if they tunnel is just going to turn those defensive buffs into offensive weapons to use against the killer without fear of ramifications. I am supposed to hunt and hook survivors, why am I being told not to do my objective? When will they do the same for survivors? Having three gens pop as the first hook is happening is just as unfun as being tunneled but you can’t fault the survivors for working toward their objective. When do we get the update of free ruin if they pop 2 gens within a minute of each other? Why not automatically kick survivors off gens and prevent them from being worked on for 90 seconds when one gets completed? Just seems drastically tone deaf to say “your sole objective is to hook survivors, but don’t do it too well or I’m going to kneecap you so the survivors don’t have to learn how to play the game better”.
Comments
The logic behind this is insane.Why?
As has been covered multiple times, this isn't unique. Survivors get penalized by doing their objective (gen penalties, reduced number of gens, windows blocking, etc.) This is not just a normal thing for this game, but its a normal element of many games to give pros and cons to various strategies to the approach of an objective. DbD's an asym which people never seem to get.
Survivors would have just totally taken away the ability to tunnel. Despite the claims of people about BHVR, they seem very much to want to keep it an element of the game.
Hu? Usually someone dies around 2 gens (killer/team/map/perks depending). There’s still tons of play left: rotate, trade, rescue, endgame. The first dude just gets front-loaded interaction — doesn’t mean the others don’t get any.
Here's the thing:
None of us care how you play.
We've gone through these threats before. People will quit and/or just play S tiers. It never happens. I run into chill killers, I run into sweaty killers, whatever killer has just been released / updated gets the most play, and I play killer and have no concerns about playing under the new rules.
You're allowed to play however you want. But we've been hearing the threats for years from people who were playing sweaty that they'd somehow play more sweaty and the community, broadly, never follows them. We're over the cries of 'wolf' and hopefully BHVR is to.
Maybe killer mains might want to try considering that advice when it comes to this update.
Lucky for me I’m not a "killer main"
What is that supposed to show us? A P100 Taurie? That doesn't tell us anything. You can get that without playing Survivor.
Remember it's a game. Games need to be fun and balanced for BOTH sides to have fun. As a survivor being found first and relentlessly tunneled out of the game, was zero fun for the entire survivor team. The person getting deleted didn't have fun, and if that death occurs at 4 or 5 gens the match is over.
If the proposed bonuses make these matches somewhat competitive, and less likely to occur then its probably worth trying. Something has to be done. There is a reason that killer queues are increasing. When I started survivor was arguably WILDLY overpowered, and their queues reflected that. It wasn't uncommon for a 15 minute queue at 8pm for survivor matches.
I'm not sure that even now, at elite play, that survivor still isn't the stronger side. I wouldn't know, I am not an elite player. My matches include a bunch of fools trying to have fun. This gets ruined by at least one DC or suicide to game exit. LIterally, 75% of my matches have a bot. The code is buggy, but not THAT buggy.
This applies to both sides
y got only Taurie and Claudette at P100; everyone else sits around P10. I need the BP on killer for add-ons anyway.
but the old red prestige backgrounds are from back in the day — the pre-2021 grind? with the old bloodweb? Thousands of hours on surv before the rework this system?
I think you're under the false impression that survivors complain about tunneling because they dislike losing and think they'll always win if the killer is forced to stop tunneling. You're wrong.
Survivors complain about tunneling because they dislike tunneling. When you say that you'll adjust your playstyle so you win without tunneling, a vast majority of survivors will be happy with that.
ofc they’ll be happy. they can keep playing bad without learning anything and still have a ‘good time.’ all the stuff that makes tunneling a big topic stays: unsafe unhooks, instant unhooks, just cooky healing under hook and resetting instead of smart reposition -> bad pathing after unhook, basically no gamesense. gen greed goes on; why kite to a smart zone where a hook makes tunneling maximally uninteresting/inefficient for the killer, when you can just sit on the spawn gen till the last second, go down there, and gift the killer a defendable area and a free re-engage.
survivors don’t want to put in effort, learn macrogameplay, hold good chases, or play smart/considered so tunneling becomes irrelevant and inefficient by itself. the majority just wants safety nets for bad play, with the killer as the party clown who’s supposed to blindly ignore every throw happening around the hook. and if he actually reacts, he eats a penalty. even if you can sometimes compensate—why is the killer getting punished for survivor misplays?
where’s this game headed if it’s just safety nets now? you load in as survivor and bring everything to deny the killer any momentum/pressure—insta-heals, flashies, whatever—stack the right perks to give him a hard time and deny pressure, and uhm.. y , you’re a real threat as long as you can use those tools. that’s part of it. but it’s also part of it that if the killer catches you and the window is there, he gets to take you out—especially if you’ve already denied him a ton of pressure. that’s normal. the killer should be allowed to pick the easiest target or the biggest threat, situationally. if you bring the heat, you accept the heat coming back.
and what’s the point if the killer isn’t allowed to take pressure back off me—even if it’s a hard tunnel? i’m fine with it. i queue to fight, not for cuddle time on both sides
let the killer tunnel and focus—it forces survivors to actually play: learn stable chases, do safe unhooks, reposition, fix your pathing, bodyblock, trade, manage info. bubble-wrap just rewards bad fundamentals (unsafe saves, healing under hook, gen greed) and deletes learning.
tunneling isn’t uncounterable: take safe unhook angles, set up off-positions, swap zones, team bodyblock, plan heal/reset routes, shift pressure across the map. when those basics are tight, tunneling gets expensive and risky—which is exactly the point
but yes.. I KNOW, i know that
"a vast majority of survivors will be happy with that."
and this survivors don’t want to learn or improve and they don’t want the killer to be an actual threat. that’s fine. but some of us aren’t here to be casual entertainment or a content farm or to babysit after-work lobbies that just wanna hop in and mash m1 — we’re here to be a competitive threat.
Do you remember how long queues were during the MFT meta?
Yeah, they were pretty normal. Survivors had a wait around peak hours, killers had the wait most other times. I remember it pretty well because I'm one of those who plays whichever side has the BP bonus and I got to play both sides during that period.
You've got to go back to pre-6.1 for any types of queues on the survivor like killers have experienced more recently.
The infinite thing is absolutely not the same. To go with your analogy, how about instead of removing the infinities like they did, instead after three full loops all the doors and windows were blocked? Sure, the killer made a bad play, but now we need a game mechanic to help out the killer. That's what this anti-tunnel is doing.
Also, while I am a P100 Pig main on killer side, I am also a P65 Jill Valentine Main on Survivor. When someone in a match is tunneled, it's usually me. So I get how frustrating being tunneled is. I am still absolutely against these changes.
+ thanks.. I mean ... The infinite argument is already garbage, because an infinite by definition can’t be broken if it’s run perfectly. If both sides play perfect, the killer has zero chance to win it.
Hard tunneling? Even there, if you put two perfectly playing sides against each other, survivors are still favored. A hard tunnel with most killers would actually be a survivor win if both sides played flawlessly.
Ye, I know nobody plays perfect — but you don’t have to. In every tournament people tunnel hard (even with ruleset and perk limitations on survivors), and survivors still win often.
So comparing infinites to tunneling is just a bad take — infinites were literal unwinnables, tunneling isn’t
Nah, that's not it either.
How about, after a few loops of not catching the survivor, the killer gets an obscene amount of haste. Like 3% is game breaking, so let's go with 5%. Then if they still can't even get a hit, we give them more haste and stack it.
Man, that would be broken as hell.
The tutorial should have included a section earlier on about what happens after being rescued from a hook.
HUD visualization, hook grab removal, AFC implementation, base kit BT. At this point, if you want to escape the so-called "tunneling" behavior where survivors get rescued consecutively, don't overthink it—just run in the opposite direction of the Killer and escape to an area with boards or window frames. If they'd just added a new section to the tutorial saying something like that, it would solve one beginner's question. Why does Dead by Daylight, as a game, rework its systems to make players who don't even know left from right—players below beginner level—able to hold their own against Killers who have a decent grasp of how to play?
Why not create additional tutorials as options where players can try out perks like OTR, DS, or DH? Then, at the end, promote DLC and offer Shards as tutorial rewards. While there have been slight improvements since the earliest days, this game isn't teaching beginners how to play. It's strapping on training wheels and protective gear and sending them straight into the fray.
That sounds horrendously predatory.
'Hi, welcome to this game you bought. Here's perks that you need to be able to play. Pay up!'
Good point. Towards that end, survivors should no longer leave scratch marks, there should be no repair noises or claxons when the exit gate is being opened, no totem cleansing sounds, chest opening sounds, healing sounds, footsteps, breathing…
I'm sorry but there's nothing that can be done about that level of entitlement. It's a PVP game—it can't revolve entirely around one role without any consequences.
Dammit, you beat me to it lmao
The infinite thing is absolutely not the same. To go with your analogy, how about instead of removing the infinities like they did, instead after three full loops all the doors and windows were blocked1: So we're shifting the argument. It's no longer 'it's insane to punish people for doing the objective, that would never to happen to survivors', its 'this type of punishment for survivors doing the objective was fine, but the proposed issue is too severe'.
Which means we're back in boring balance discussion territory and everyone can put their pitchforks away.
2: To actually make the example comparable you'd need to add:
And as compensation when survivors leave a loop instead of three vaulting it they gain a haste boost.
The problem is, you can't collect that 400k if the people shelling out the 100k all leave.
I disagree. I think that BHVR are largely going to push these updates through despite the almost universal backlash, and survivor queues are going to hit 10 minutes by Halloween. Especially since the killer looks kinda garbage.
I really hope this happens. Watching the community-wide fallout and sheer blind panic from BHVR would be absolutely hilarious.
yes, right.
you can’t tune the game for survivors who don’t want to learn and expect no fallout. it can’t be about one role only. 100%, agreed
Tunneling is meta because an early kill basically wins you the game.
All of these arguments are basically just saying that people don't understand why tunneling early enough wins you the game. Because it's not due to regression, it's "you eliminated a survivor".
So instead of one on hook, one going for rescue, one in chase, and one on gens, they can only do 3 of the 4 things when one dies. Which means that juggling survivors removes the only optional task: gens.
If you think you need an early tunnel and regression, then you're probably someone who relies way too heavily on game stall, and not enough on really any other area of the game (game sense or information, game knowledge and counterplay, not looping tightly or correctly, not zoning, not paying attention to details).
The attention to details is literally hooks. This really isn't that hard. As someone who tracked enemy ultimately charge in overwatch, back when there were 6 players to track and (still today) zero outward indicators of progress, tracking hooks is way, way simpler.
Your hypocrisy is showing. You keep talking about how Survivors should learn while you're refusing to learn how to deal with the upcoming changes. Instead, your only response is to keep tunneling and slugging with Nurse and Blight.
But by all means, go ahead and do that. If enough players follow suit, maybe Nurse and Blight will get the Skull Merchant treatment. And then where will that leave us?
Balance isn’t “one role gets to play sloppy wile the other is forced to look away.”
In asymmetry, learning comes from punishable mistakes and rewarded correct reactions. I’ll adapt—always do. But let’s be honest: rewarding mistakes while taxing correct responses isn’t balance; it’s anti-learning.
This package hard-bakes forced ignorance: it tells Killer to walk past free value so even the least willing-to-learn teammate-farmer or the no-pathing, camera-off sprinter still has a good time. I’m here to compete, convert pressure, and snowball when it’s handed to me—not to role-play ignoring it.
What this package teaches is forced ignorance:
PPL in newer lobbys will NEVER learn:
Because the HUD says: not six red pips yet.
But no, even the worst yet still ‘brazen’ team is supposed to have their ‘fun fun’ and good time in the match with the killer, without the killer being allowed to respond accordingly.
Like..:
Yeaa, we’re trash, but we want our SABO minigame. No chase learning—we’ll just die in upper main. One hook nearby? Perfect. SABO time. Killer picks up again? I body-block, eat the hit, zoom to the next hook and try to start more sabo—big ‘skill,’ btw.
Killer slugs? Not okay—BHVR pls fix. Killer finally plays like… a killer? Nope, that’s ‘toxic’ and dumb.
Like this ppl.. They’re awful bad, but if I punish it, suddenly i have to get this ‘the disadvantage’ because: ‘oh no, bad, you’re not supposed to do that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_b8Z-pz9kAnd no, I don’t mind that a group wants their sabo fun—skipping movement and real chases, going down in upper main to get their sabo plays rolling. That’s legit, part of the game; play how you want. But I’m not accepting any ‘disadvantage’ the moment I respond like a killer
‘We gave you other ways to win!’ — cool story. I don’t care.
This community wants chaos with zero consequences: ‘Let us play bad, but if the killer actually plays like a killer, that has to give him a disadvantage.
Then i adapt again
I know what to do against most groups—even on Skully—so they’ll have as little fun as possible in my lobby. The strong squads? I dodge them; they can entertain someone else.
At that point, it’s about principles.
What? No. You completely missed my point and then went off the rails. Your analogy was bad. Let's just leave it at that, as I don't have the spoons to try to better explain why.
I did read what you said, you seem to not have read my entire post because I address this.
Knowing hooks is game sense. And that's being hyperbolic because it's literally just memory, since the killer is actively engaged with each hook.
It's literally the simplest skill check you can give a player. It's also the reason that other things don't exist, such as:
This feature literally shows you the last person hooked also.
Let's just leave it at that, as I don't have the spoons to try to better explain why.That's fine, you can leave it if you want, but I never mind another go of explaining
Your analogy was bad.I'm not making an analogy, so it being good or bad is kind of impossible. I'm pointing out a factual issue. So in terms of missing points if you were treating something as an analogy you were already missing the point.
The post I was responding to that you then replied to claimed that the idea of increasing difficulty or having consequences occur for completing objectives was "insane" (this is not a unique argument on the forums at the moment). I provided a few different examples of survivor things that currently exist in the game (there's killer examples as well) that do just this (and again, this is not unique, I and others have pointed this out on multiple threads).
You focused on the infinite windows example dropping the others. I pointing out two obvious things.
1: This is shifting the argument (now this being clearer because you thought I was making an analogy, which I never was)
2: To compare to what BHVR is currently proposing you'd also have to give the survivor buffs otherwise you aren't actually comparing alike things.
Loved your video really amusing I hadn't heard that song before it was really incredible.
But 1. Hasn't sabo been nerfed like 8 times by now? More hooks longer sabo times no 99% anymore. It's really not a viable win condition for a team to do they are just having fun and not trying to win. So tunneling one out probably wouldn't even effect your win.
2. The slugging and tunneling are not a tool to win but to abuse the games arguably bad initial mechanics to exploit a win scenario... Consider this what game on the planet that is competitive in nature and has a PVP scene allows players to win 100s of games in a row? 500? 1000? Or the blight that had a 1900+ win streak. This isn't natural for a game. And a valid response isn't "well I don't play that way" why should a game require a community code of honor to not fall part? That's nonsense and it isn't just a few killers Oni 500+ seen a few 50+ huntress vecnas. I'm definitely not an authority on killer win streaks so I don't know them all. But that doesn't happen in other game it shouldn't happen in dbd
Balance also isn't constantly chasing the Survivor who just got off the hook and is still injured and vulnerable, and the Killer has an unfair advantage.
I just want to say I can attest to AGZs proclivity to getting tunnelled... killer's have this man's scent. I can wear a neon shirt and run down the centre of the map.... AGZ is still found first. This man dies too often for our sins… 🥺🥺🥺
It's quite amazing... as a Jill, Killers are all definitely have Nemmy goggles on ... I'm sure of it… 😵💫
how would you know? i only wrote the song recently, tied to this update—same as the other 2–3. that’s just how i vent xD
that’s just my way of sighing.
I think this should be viewed separately from whether sabo is too strong (that’s debatable). But this is not the point: Survivors are playing greedy and making mistakes. I react like a killer—I won’t turn a blind eye. They misplayed, not me. That shouldn’t disadvantage me. I capitalize. Don’t punish me for their throw. And even if there’s a “reward” for playing blind so weaker players don’t have to learn and can still have fun, I don’t want it. I’m a killer, not a training dummy.
which win streak do you mean exactly? a lot of them were pre-nerfs (see billy). ye, they exist. blight is blight. most of those streaks happened in normal lobbies at super casual hours, and plenty benefited from that (some were… let’s say “assisted”).
blight can abuse bugs/glitches that get packaged as “tech” by content creators. fix that stuff — don’t blanket-ban tunneling.
flip side: if i run something weak, survivors play almost mistake-free, and i roll a bad map (hi pied piper), that can be an auto-lose with the right squad. so yeah, when i pull out nurse, i usually win — that’s legit. she’s not unbeatable; most groups just can’t keep up and often don’t counter things that are counterable (see my nurse clip in this thread).
like, what do you expect if a full team goes sabo + flashy + flashbang into a nurse and stays in her LOS? what’s supposed to happen? i’m the strongest killer right now — have your fun, sure — but i get to punish that, not get punished for it.
In most PvP games, bad play = dead screen—headshot, back to lobby. DBD cushions mistakes with tons of safety nets. So lots of players don’t optimize; the game lets them, while other PvPs punish instantly. Plenty of survivors either don’t need to improve or don’t want to—bum-rush killer is more fun. That’s fine (I enjoy that as survivor too), but don’t complain when you die and the killer wins. That’s the cost. Either run full survivor efficiency for the win, or queue for ‘fun time’—and if you run into a stronger killer, expect to die.
you can’t balance the game for both groups: the ‘fun rounds’ crowd who mess around, don’t want to learn, and prefer sabos and flashy plays—even if that feeds the killer—and the full-efficiency meta players aiming for unseen survivor wins. The first style dies the moment it faces a good killer who makes few mistakes. Don’t balance around that; balance around players who are actually playing 100% for the win
By that logic, we wouldn’t balance around killers trying to win—we’d balance around killers doing personal challenges: ‘two-hook everyone before I kill,’ ‘chainsaw-only,’ ‘full M1 no power,’ ‘no perks, no addons.’ If you balance for sub-optimal play, you’d have to balance for all of that too. It doesn’t work :/
a lot of DBD players don’t play with optimal efficiency. Many treat it like a casual horror game, and unlike shooters you don’t get punished as directly, so the game allows it. The people who take it more seriously aren’t the majority—and they’ll beat players with different goals. That’s how it should be, right? The side that treats it like real PvP, with thousands more hours, custom practice, etc., will have the edge. When a new map drops, my duo and I hop into customs: test Billy curves and stick spots, map structures, where Nurse can’t blink, where Blight snags, what’s mindgameable, and how to squeeze fast vaults out of tight window setups. That alone can take tons of hours. Plenty of folks with crazy win streaks do the same. When they land in average lobbies, of course they’re favored.
(That doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot—especially on Blight—built on bug/glitch ‘tech’ that really should be reviewed. Same with oni .. "i flick my camera in the air and i can get much much better angles , same with wesker)
Yeah, a 20k-hour player running a Vecna win streak and queueing into your average evening casual lobbies (that’s exactly why these streaks get farmed during ultra-casual hours) and who’s actually labbed the killer… of course he’s going to win. Most folks on the other side are just hopping in for a chill game.
Many survivors don’t even practice running every structure super close—close to the wall, close to the object, without getting stuck. They run the loop too wide or catch on something, while the killer might run it tighter. That alone often decides a free hit. And yes, that’s expensive for survivors, because you usually can only take 1–2 hits.
Details like these often alone decide who has the advantage. Killers tend to learn them sooner—past a certain point they have to if they want good matches and real downs/kills against stronger players. Meanwhile, plenty of survivors rack up hundreds or even thousands of hours and still don’t master some fundamentals.
We can disagree and keep the comments civil and respectful. Please keep that in mind during these discussions. Thank you!
We can also agree that the total radio silence about these major changes coming tomorrow is not correct way of handling this situation, it seems like Ryan is the only one holding the line and trying to calm down the situation.
We should and technically deserve an official response from the higher ups in charge for these changes where they can properly explain some of these changes coming, dont get me wrong most of them dont have any loopholes only 20% in that entire post Ryan shared has really annoying loopholes.
Total radio silence by the way which means continuing this trend of silence until PTB releases just means you guys are promoting extreme complaints and people tamper to rise and annoy your own community without properly explaining some NOT all of changes as i said majority are self explanatory and it fully makes sense why they are coming.
I myself am not a happy that the forum is being moderated and im not sure why is it because of higher ups or you guys (apart from Ryan) not requesting more access to explain stuff
My bad, miss typo, i meant to say not happy how its being moderated not that it is.
I am happy there is at least activity but not proper way of handling the situation
and um.. a short example..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeuZczC2nlwxD like I said, I like writing songs to vent.
Well, those are extremes, but you know? The "typical sable" player is often a thing
Killers on their winstreak like that often end up in normal “casual time” lobbies, while others train for ages in customs or really work on mastering their abilities (aside from all the bug/glitch tech). If you get one of those players in your lobby, what do you expect?
So let me get this right you wrote and sang these songs? That is incredible! I actually saved this last video since I really liked the song random mates .
The issue with the win streaks isn't about luck of the draw. It shows that a killer utilizing absolutely all their skills have a higher high of win potential then a survivors 's highest high wind potential. And that's not necessarily A bad thing. The game is supposed to be killer sided by nature but the spread should be like 60 to 70% win ratio not an 80 to 90. Like I'm sure if you pull up your dbd stats your kill rates are probably high higher than 60%.
Now obviously certain killers will perform better on average than other ones but this is a power creep problem and not necessarily a slugging and tunneling problem. It should definitely be addressed and low performing killers should be given something that helps them.
Exactly, moderation is needed but sadly PTB was just dropped like this on us with such big changes all we got was dev notes but not on specific each change as it should be done.
And then radio silence after it when people are planning on protesting which is serious
I am also trying to have common sense and ask them if they can ask for some more access from their superiors higher ups in charge for these decisions and if they can open up more about them since sadly many of staff members here dont deserve any threats, and to be frank here nobody should get death threats over a video game over a product that can always be changed.
The radio silence just gives a bad impression empowering the people that hate comment to have more power and clog the community when we could have it avoided.
Like Ryan i feel like that man right there wants the best for us and himself and the people hes working for but he simply cant due to NDA contract.
Im not really liked on the forums lol
But its fine
Many content creators and long term vets here have stated how majority of people who actually dont play both sides regularly and regularly are encountering the issues that are being adressed with in the tomorrow ptb shouldnt really be so loosely claiming stuff and taking sides so quick without spending some time playing both sides.
I do play more killer nowadays i do play survivor too when i need fast BP and lvling up characters to P100.
Either way i do confirm that my approach is not so humane and likable right off the bat i come off as way too direct and not easily talked to but i love when people are contrustctive and try to build off of the idea i placed down.
Like so far i made two posts for basekit corrupt and basekit pain reso instead of pop to match general killer roster and these changes
Everyone is panicking because BHR has proven they have no idea how the game is played.
New meta: 4 survivors playing the same one with the same cosmetic. All of them with repair boxes, finish a game in 4 minutes while mocking the killer. Sounds fun. My god.
Well that too, and the rabbit hole goes deeper lol than what you just said... BUUT... in the darkest moments like this there is still some truth that these changes will improve the general solo q experience which benefits me as a solo q individual but as also a killer player especially m1 that spends his time in upper 80% killrate matches with meta perk builds survivors and having to rely on smart tunneling and slugging and now it being changed to this (even tho its not final)
I had hope because they began sponsoring competitive, clearly they still have no clue, even after seeing how the game has to be played for killers to have good results.
both mclean and almo streamed dbd when they were here not sure who publicly plays these days. Mandy pops in on Hens id love to see her squad up sometime
Everyone knows that they don't play both sides lol. There's not a single killer main on that balance team.