At this point killers are just asking for unbreakable basekit
To preface this: I very very rarely play survivor. Im mostly a killer main and have like 90% of my hours on killer.
Today I decided to do some challenges from the archives for survivor and the experience has just been absolutely miserable.
First of all the killers I got were some prestige 100 nurse and blights 8 games in a row, which I already find very weird since I would assume that my survivor MMR is super low since I almost never play survivor and if I do I rarely get out cause I'm not very good. So I would think that I shouldn't go up against prestige 100 S-Tier killers with 6k hours in the game but apparently MMR thinks otherwise.
What I found even more annoying was that 7 out of those 8 killers played the same strat, which is just down everyone, slug them, wait out unbreakables if they even exist and then let everyone bleed out for the rest of the match refusing to hook anyone. I mean my team would have lost anyways since when I checked their profiles most of them were players with like 100-500 hours vs 6k hours killer players. Noone lasted in chases longer than 20 seconds.
Both those things combined, the wonky mmr system and then losing one chase and literally not being able to do anything for 4 minutes just makes for such a miserable experience. No fun to be found.
At this point those killers are honestly just asking the Devs to make unbreakable basekit imO
Comments
They're never going to release basekit unbreakable since slugging is the appropriate counter to sabo/pallet/flashlight saves. In order to chase the person trying to make the save, you have to leave the original target slugged.
https://youtu.be/QY41Ytw8nFg?si=9PEBdbzithT2enW3Here's a good example video where slugging was 100% the appropriate counter. During thebasekit unbreakable PTB, survivors basically made hooking impossible knowing killers COULDNT punish it by slugging.
I think that the game, without survivors just messing around, is incredibly survivor sided, backed with evidence from DBD league, analysis on stats but most of all common sense.
Without the solo queue element where you get new players, players doing challenges or simply messing around, survivors can win every single game. That’s a core design flaw, where you keep patching the game with perks. There are so many chances and perks that hooks give no benefit (which is like part of the main objective of the whole game). If you can finish 3 gens in one chase, something is off.
The issue is people like you, taking a side, defend it till the end and don’t see the bigger picture. Half the roster of killers suck, are underpowered or are basically killed switch waiting for a remake. Also well, you are blaming players, not the game balance and design that created this meta, which is obviously a tantrum, but from your side. I’ll take another week off from forums, I try but it’s just disappointing. Bye.
It isn't I have had this happen to me. It's rare but it seems they all watch the same streamer and play the same.
Survivor Main here and let me say I absolutely understand tactical slugging and tunneling. I don't get mad about it because I understand it. I get mad when I am on the ground bleeding out with my teammates and getting humped by the killer just because they can. I usually crawl to the nearest hook.
Now as far as MM it's a mess. It seems that I get my Survivor rank in my killer games and it's unbearable. I get loads of toxic play and I only play two games a day of killer if that. I don't understand how one can do a gen by themselves in less than a minute with no gen perks and the sabo squads yuck. I can genuinely understand the slug strategy with who I go up against. But not all games are like that and I never slug I will just let it go.
The main reason I feel is that slugging meta is more popular on the North American servers so that's only a small portion of players. It isn't this widespread problem because only very few players are doing it in the whole community but it will cause that player count drop in that area. My suggestion is make slugging punishable by some means. If the killer allows two people to bleed out for over 2 minutes then lock the ability to play killer only Survivor. Make deer stalker bk after 60 seconds. This can also be for two games in a row not just one, this will separatethe sluggers from the players. There should be no reason to bleed out someone unless the squad is toxic or tactics prevent you from hooking.
I think they should just add a “try to stop bleeding” option while slugged after one minute, you get 3, 4% chances to get up or instantly die. So, no nerfs and no waiting.
You don't really get to point that finger at anyone else when you spent multiple days sulking and copypasting your drivel of how 'they want killers to just be playthings'.
No, and you know why?
Because this was always there. Slugging did not get addressed in all this time. Killers opted to start slugging when hooks got +10 seconds in compensation for the 6.1 gen repair nerf.
Despite the +10 seconds being effectively irrelevant to any killer that isn't camping, this was seen as some kind of big green light to start slugging. This is an inconsequential nerf to the class that is statistically doing far better than its opponents, and it sent folks into a frenzy.
Whether you like it or not, killer IS the bully role. Unless you can wrestle up a very competent 4-man squad on comms, If you want to ruin someone's day, you play killer.
Your solution, as is the solution of every forum killer, is to just keep buffing killers more and more and more, until some indeterminate point is reached where the game is 'balanced' in the eyes of the forum killer. But even in that case, should any killer threaten to lose, they can still opt to use these tactics so long as they remain untouched. And in addition, if a killer isn't interested in winning and just wants to be a spoilsport, they can still opt to use these tactics so long as they remain untouched.
They are problems and should be dealt with. And if these methods are the lynchpins that are creating a facade of balance, then it'll be better for killers in the long run if it gets ripped off, because then BHVR will actually have to give the buffs you're demanding.
But as it stands, killers have been demanding every problem they complain about.
Sounds like there should be a faster way to bleed out then not a way to win when you lose.
I still give hatch too, the hell do I care about a free Mori? Like yeah, I might take it, but sometimes I don't. I feel like it's still a nice gesture. I also prefer spreading hooks, 8hooking, 2k+10 hooks, etc. when I am being chill and not trying to "perform" or whatever. In fact I LIKE being able to grant mercy sometimes and I wish the devs would reward doing that with special points events or giving some sort of boost in pipping. We should incentivize fair play.
@Reinami 's suggestion is really good but I don't know if it could be coded in.
Another possibility is having a repair debuff on gens while all survivors are alive and have it replaced by a gen repair buff when a survivor dies (and have it scale in speed depending on how many survivors are alive). That would slow down the early game and give more time to spread hooks while also making it so a survivor dying doesn't mean it becomes nearly impossible to do the gens. Theoretically the best chance for a 4K under this system would be to put everyone on death hook before starting to sacrifice survivors.
Another option that doesn't change mechanics is buffing gen defense perks but having them deactivate on survivor death. Pain Res could go back to 25% each hook but stop working when a survivor dies and Ruin could go to 200% again but once again deactivate. This doesn't provide a disincentive to not tunnel though which I think is also important.
Another option suggested was having group hook states. That wasn't my preference but it would work as well. It would probably need gen repair speed adjustments based off my gut feeling. I could be wrong though.
Another option would be cages sort of like how they do it in 2v8. The Killer saves time by not walking to hook and, in return, the Survivor is hard to find making it more difficult to tunnel.
Anyway, that's a summary of suggestions I remember seeing. It's perfectly possible to get rid of tunnelling (or decrease it substantially) if BHVR would test a solution and code it in.
Your gen speed idea would actually mostly just promote a slugging meta...
I'm a Pig main for the most part. Pig is one, if not the only killer, that has an incentive to NOT tunnel. This being: spreading the RBTs for slowdown.
I stopped trying to win in my killer matches because it ruined my fun over the years. Dbd became more like a job than a game. That's the point where one has to reevaluate.
This does not mean that I throw every match. I consider myself very good at playing good Mandy. At least I have enough practice and experience under my belt. I go for gameplay. Not for winning. I know how dbd works and that more often than not, getting a 3 or 4k is not realistically doable with the loadout I use. This is not a problem for me. I look at my own gameplay and try to have fun.
I almost never tunnel and try to improve my chase (ambush, moondash and m1 mindgames) and map surveillance (memorizing survivor movement throughout the match).
If the match was fun to me, then that's a win in my book. I don't have to get kills to be satisfied.
Just nuke nurse and blight so that weaker killers can still rely on slugging
I vibes with that as a Ghostface Main and I try to be that way too. Ghostie similarly is one of the few Killers incentivized NOT to camp hooks or slugs, since he can be revealed that way. I like to find new ways to trick people in chase with my Shroud and crouch, it's like a fun little game to see if I can get one over on the Survivors or get an ambush on alert Survivors.
I'm confident enough at this Killer that I don't have to play to win all the time. I'm not going to force it if it's not meant to happen; I'm gonna keep spreading hooks and playing the way I want to and using what I want to in order to enjoy the round or accomplish my goals. Even my build only really works if you spread hooks. If I'm getting to the point I "need to win", I need to put the game down, not force more wins. Actually I like to wind down this time of year, right around Bone Chill. I play very vibey and chill and even less caring of a win than normal.
I do the same with everyone else I play. For example I am willing to goof a bit with Gloaming as Dredge like an excited little dance, I'm not mean or anything but I do play hard!
What are you even talking about, the game is harder for survivors than it has ever been. It was in the distant past that the game was survivor sided. What modern survivors lack is having the game mechanics tilted in their favor like the old survivors had. Now it's the other way around.
I know this will never actually happen, but I hope it doea anyway because survivor has been the underpowered role for long enough now. I also just want to see how salty killers on the forums can get, considering their cries are allready at apocalyptic proportions when the developer explicitly states they are purposely giving them a greater chance to win.
I don't think so. A survivor dying from slugging would still speed up gens. Realistically, if a Killer can pull off a 4 person slug then the survivors either made a series of blunders or the Killer was going to win anyways. It's a miserable strategy to employ but any complaints about slugging a full group of 4 people (as opposed to slug the second last to look for the last) has far more than just slugging in play: match making is also at work and the survivors were most likely treated like chum by the match making algorithm.
My issue with a slug for the 4K isn't that it's possible anyway; it's that it wastes another player's time for what's likely an egotistical goal. Having players sit around and do nothing for extended periods of time is never a well designed feature.
A change on gen speeds based on survivors alive is something i haven't thought of and probably the easiest.
I think it would be the easiest to implement since Sole Survivor exists so there's already something similar in the code. Your idea is far more interesting and cooler but I don't know if BHVR would put in the time and hours to implement it.
Well it wouldn't.
Anything survivors are given they just abuse. Survivors body blocking out of the hook abusing the immunity they get is not new by now. Mind you I don't even think this is a bad play from the survivor. They are abusing something that was supposed to make it so they aren't tunneled immediately off the hook in order to purposefully get in the way of the killer, sure, but also, it's what behavior implemented, so you can't blame them for using it for their advantage.
That said, it does serve as an example to show that you shouldn't be implementing too many mechanics to help and handhold people with the assumption that they will use it for its intended purpose instead of milking it for every possible unintended advantage they can.
I agree that better incentives should be given to killers to hook. And not only hooks but multiple targets, so that killers are rewarded for multiple chases/hooks with multiple survivors. It is up to BHVR to push the game towards that direction, and because they haven't players will take advantage. But I disagree about not allowing perks that work after being unhooked. Perks like those make sense because the survivor that was just hooked are more vulnerable. The people who don't have hooks don't need more tools, the people who are one step closer to death are the ones that need them.
This is the truth
Then all the killer mains leave and play another game
You are being disingenuous. It's a total of 80 seconds extra hook states
I don't think its a coding issue, I think there are two other problems at play when we discuss fundamental game changes:
1: The level of perk redesigns that would be necessary to accomplish it.
2: Going against the core of the game. DbD is an elimination game. A huge part of the tension is the knowledge that you could get eliminated even if the game is going well and things can turn from good to bad really quickly. Survivors are supposed to care about whether they personally survive (and, broadly, I think they do). This is in contrast to a game like a hero shooter where if I die to take an objective, but we take the objective, that was the goal.
And this all comes up against the fact that even if many players express frustration with certain elements of DbD, the player counts are very healthy, especially given the game's age. If I was in BHVR's shoes I'd see no reason to change the core philosophy of the game.
But if we're just talking hypothetically
Another possibility is having a repair debuff on gens while all survivors are alive and have it replaced by a gen repair buff when a survivor dies (and have it scale in speed depending on how many survivors are alive).It would be hard to balance and get right. Conceptually, survivors should never benefit from a survivor dying. Sometimes it is a worthwhile trade, but you get into the dangerous hypothetical of 'killer is punished for doing their objective' style discussions.
I did once post the following idea when I tried to think of a way to redesign it:
All survivors have 75% gen repair speed of what it is currently. Whenever a survivor is downed, all other survivors have their gen speed increased by 15%. If the survivor is picked up/not hooked, the 15% is reset.
However, anytime a survivor is hooked, their gen repair speed returns to 75% no matter what it was at.
Example game play: Killer downs and hooks survivor A, then B, then C, the B again. Survivor A would have gen repair 120%, B 75%, C 90%, and D 135%. B is the tunnel out, but the killer has incentive to really find survivors A or D because their gens are flying.
The idea was to slow down early game, encourage hook spreading, make the benefit occur with slugging but not be punishing if the survivors pull off a save. Lore wise, this would be survivors working harder as they see others injured, but slowed down when they are hooked.
Even though I posted it, not sure if the right spot could ever be found where it would not radically tilt the game in the direction of the survivors or killer.
Another option would be cages sort of like how they do it in 2v8I think if they were remaking DbD, there are a number of things that they would probably take from 2v8 for 1v4. The class system, survivors getting stronger as they get hooked, basekit catch up mechanics, and, of course, the cage mechanic, would probably all be better starting points. But going to cages now would require massive rebalancing.
No, it isn't. It's not in the survivors' best interests to let their buddies hang, so those ten extra seconds won't come into play, with one exception: Camping.
yes it literally is, in most cases it literally is in the best interests of both you and your teammates to keep you on hook (as long as you don't fall into another hook state/die on hook).
How many matches do we need to lose, how many complaints about unbalanced game and killers being OP will we have to issue until we realize our own macro mistakes?
Advantages of greeding a survivor on hook:
These are literally basics of macro gameplay knowledge, if you really still keep talking about balance while missing on these out, just don't take part in balance discussions
I already mentioned campers, and you are technically correct that under absolutely ideal circumstances, a tunneller can be delayed by an absolute maximum of 20 seconds, but points 3 and 4 are mentioned as positives but turn out to be negatives when you compare them to a normally timed rescue.
No, you don't get more gen time, you get less. 3 survivors working on gens > 2 survivors working on gens. Leaving one person hanging on the hook doesn't make gens go faster, it makes them go slower. They'd get up to 20 charges of gen progress if they let the survivor hang for those ten seconds, or anywhere over 30 charges if they don't.
Similarly, unless the killer returns to the hook in time to catch the scratch marks, a rescued survivor goes dark too, meaning the killer loses access to info on 3 survivors, instead of 2. Additionally, to claim that the killer has 0 info about the location of two other survivors while the third is on the hook is not an accurate representation of practice: The killer can safely assume that one of the two is en route for the rescue and knows roughly where they'll be in the next few seconds.
This is also disregarding the threat of a snowball if the killer gets an early down. Two on hook and one in chase is an extremely dangerous situation for survivors to be in, especially if they were already trying to exploit those extra ten seconds, because it means the killer gets a free extra hook.
There aren't the basics of macro gameplay, these are your bias causing you to omit everything that doesn't suit your argument.
These are literally basics of macro gameplay knowledge, if you really still keep talking about balance while missing on these out, just don't take part in balance discussionsYour structure seems to presume that killers are having some massive difficulty in finding survivors. Not only are there multiple perks that make this easy, the macro gameplay knowledge you think seems to be missing should give the killer a pretty clear indication of where the survivors are located.
This is also disregarding the threat of a snowball if the killer gets an early down.This is true. Two survivors downed is nightmare for survivors.
Additionally - if you greed the hook timer, the killer has no reason not to return. If I'm playing killer and its been 50 seconds without an unhook, I can basically guarantee myself a free hook state by returning to the hook and either forcing a trade or getting the survivor to the next hook state.
This is the reason.
We really shouldn't have this sort of Survivor SWF tactic become strong, ever. It's nothing more than a bully squad tool from the heyday of Surv-sided DBD back in 2017, and it's only ever truly used to grief. In actuality this sort of play should be hard nerfed into the ground; it's unfun for everyone and it's only literally ONLY done in the hopes of getting a baby M1 Killer Main to bully.
I mean I cannot think of one serious, legitimate reason as a Survivor you and your SWF would ever want to do this if your goal is to win, and not just grief some random Killer.
I think out of all the Surv rounds I play in a month, I only ever get slugged to bleedout like this… something like three times. And that's usually out of at least 50-60+ matches. And it usually only happens during the sweatiest times of the month like Rank Reset or if a mode/event is on.
I rarely get Killers doing this on purpose.
Didnt even say anything about killers being op or something needing a nerf.
Just pointing out that from what I am experiencing more and more killers use a playstyle where they rather bleed the survivors out instead of hooking them cause they either dont want unhook perks to trigger or dont want to risk the 4%.
This means survivors are either dependend on having multiple unbreakables in their team or to go more or less afk for 4 minutes to wait out the timer.
If more and more killer players do this, unbreakable will eventually become base kit. That's all I pointed out in this post.
The true issue of this forum is that some people read "them vs us" stuff into everything. Instead of reading "killers are asking for unbreakable base kit with this playstyle" they read " I now demand unbreakable to be base kit" and then feel personally attacked for thinking you said something against their role.
The comment you are replying to did bring up a valid point. "Slugging is a thing because they have added so many perks, add ons and items to counter hooks. There’s a plethora of survivor perks that give second chances, get more health stages, trade hooks etc. They feel the need to nerf every chase perk and killers good in chase till they become trash." While I wouldn't have worded in such a way, this comment is factually accurate.
The point you were trying to make was, by your own words "killers are asking for unbreakable base kit with this playstyle". However, if you make that comment without addressing the previous comment via gameplay changes, all you're really saying is "Yes, survivors do in fact have plenty of ways to deal with hook states, but killers still shouldn't slug." And honestly, thats just not a convincing argument, because it doesn't even attempt to tackle the core problem.
The core problem isn't that killers slug. The core problem is why killers feel they need to slug. And spoilers, its rarely to be mean and toxic. WHile I'm sure that has happened to a lot of us in the past, please lets stop pretending that it happens often. That dilutes the argument when it just isn't factual.
Lets come up with ways to address the core problem, rather then focus solely on the side effect of the core problem
This is simply not correct. The only things they've added have been to deter camping and tunneling, and do nothing if you leave the hook. And while there are a disturbing number of killer players who see that as synonymous to "hooking" and can't literally think of any other way to play the game, that's entirely and completely wrong.
Anyone who says or thinks this is because of perks or mechanics is being disingenuous to everyone, possibly including themselves.
People will always feel the "need to slug". In general, there are (unfortunately many) killers who put ego into everything, especially on these forums. Losing a game, or even not "winning completely" is not even a thought that crosses their minds. They can "play normally" or "play how they want" and stay in their own/appropriate MMR bracket, but many of these players aren't satisfied with that because it means they will only get about 60% kills, and eventually will not be winning all the time.
When that happens, they start using strategies that are "easy to execute, and hard for survivors to counter". They will tunnel until that inevitably stops working for them, and currently the meta is to simply slug until even that stops working for them. Usually, once they hit the absolute limit of their ability, they post on the forums for "devs to do something, because they insist they have to tunnel and slug every game".
But you don't have to. You can kill about 60% of the time in easy games, or you can sweat incessantly and have really frustrating games and still kill about 60% of the time. And your insistence that this is "a focus on the core problem" is, simply put, just another plea for the devs to buff killers and/or nerf survivors. At which point the cycle will still be identical, just with a few more easy wins in between before again hitting your skill cap.
The mindset for killers is the core problem. And somehow this is the only PvP game I've ever seen where players seem to expect to win every game, and when that doesn't happen, scream at the devs to fix it. That is the core problem, and no amount of balance will change the fact that people will seemingly always feel entitled to win all the time. The only thing that changes is what "flavor of the month" perk/mechanic/item is being blamed for it this time.
Agree to disagree, I suppose. However, there is one specific line in your post that gave me pause, and i'd like to push back against…
"your insistence that this is "a focus on the core problem" is, simply put, just another plea for the devs to buff killers and/or nerf survivors"
First off, thats just putting words into the mouths of others. But second, how is making changes that incentivizing hooking "buffing killers and nerfing survivors?" I'm quite curious about that.
If you truly want slugging to be one hundred percent impossible or at least detrimental to killer gameplay (if you do, thats a completely different conversation, so lets put a pin in that for a later day), then there are two ways to go about it: Incentivizing hooks, or outright punishing slugging. I'd avoid the later choice personally, because there are sadly occasionals where leaving a survivor on the ground is simply the smarter move, whether it be because of nearby flashlighters, potential pallet saves, spoting a nearby survivor who is terribly out of position, needing to rush back to a gen to keep it from getting finished, and other such things. There are times when immediately picking up a survivor right after you down them simply isnt the smart play. But if you punish players by forcing them to choose a less then smart option, well, thats just not going to turn out well
But the former option, incentivizing hooks more, thats different. Its the concept of rewarding good gameplay, rather then punishing what may be the smarter choice, specific situations withstanding
One thing I've always noticed is how people treat being picked up by a teammate to be somehow different than being rescued from a hook. You don't NEED unbreakable to get off the ground just like you don't need a perk to get off a hook. The normal recovery for both is the same thing... You're teammate returns you to the "injured" state. The only really difference is a killer can sit on top of a slug without an antiface camp mechanic kicking in...in which 3 people have 4 minutes to finish the gens, which is way more than enough time.
No it's not. You specifically state:
And then:
So, to put it simply, you're directly saying that the main problem is that killers feel that they need to slug, and that slugging is prevalent because of the perks, items, and add-ons to "counter hooks" (otherwise this isn't a "valid" argument, in your words). So when you go on to say that
You're implicitly saying that those "perks, add-ons, and items" need to be adjusted. And since buffing those would only make the problem worse, then the only solution from your perspective is to "undo the damage" by removing those "core issues" as you put it.
It doesn't necessarily have to be, but that's what you're directly saying in your post, for the reasons I explained above. And just about any changes to balance will be perceived that way regardless.
However, instead of nerfs or buffs: You could, for example, make the "old" BBQ BP bonus for hooking each individual survivor a base kit effect. You can even add an on-screen UI element for the killer to see their bonus amount, and even further, disable additional bonuses after the first survivor dies. It's a non-controversial way to incentivize spreading hooks that has basically no balance impact, but would have a minor impact to player mentality and gameplay. I've wanted that, or something like it, since they removed the BP bonus from the perk itself.
I'm actually glad you brought up BBQ because that was one of the best perks that incentivizes going for hooks. At first, I wanted to suggest making BBQ base kit, but I'm of the firm belief that built in aura reading should not be a thing for killers, at least in the base kit. But I still think a base kit BBQ does have some merit, or at least the concept of it. I just couldn't figure out a way to make it work properly. And then, Scourge Hook: Jagged Compass was introduced. A perk that shows the gen with the most progress. This isn't what i had in mind for the base kit addition to killers to incentivize going for a new survivor once an old one was hooked, but its a step in the right direction.
What I'm suggesting is a base kit mechanic for killers that rewards them for hooking a survivor; the reward being information of some kind valuable information regarding the rest of the map. Now, what that information should be, i cant really say. I think giving the specific location of the other survivors is a bit much, and Jagged Compass already shows the gen with the most progress, but by giving the killer something valuable, in a way that could be minor or major depending on balancing, you incentivize picking up that survivor and hooking right away rather then simply leaving them on the ground.
Now, You're still going to have some specific situation where leaving a survivor on the ground may be a smarter choice, but they'll be far less frequent. And frankly, the only way to really eliminate slugging would be to have the Entity itself hook survivors as soon as they're down and immediately move that survivor to a far away hook that the killer can't see the aura of, and thats just a bit too much.
I completely agree. I think of strategies like camping, tunneling, and slugging as "situational". Which generally means they should be available for the killer to use, but shouldn't generally be the "plan going into the match" or "the only way someone plays". It's also why I'm generally opposed to base kit unbreakable.
This is kinda why I pushed back on the inital post. Information, especially "valuable information" that isn't currently available, but is added as a result of gameplay is a buff to killers, specifically a base kit buff. And I'm not sure that you could give extra information that would be valuable enough to deter slugging, since both slugging and camping are generally (over)used to bring survivors to the hook/slug so the killer doesn't have to go searching at all.
It's also why I think something like the BBQ BP bonus is about the only way to go with this, because it's an extrinsic reward and incentive. It doesn't do anything to affect the match or the balance of the game, but is still useful to the player. And might still be enough to encourage some players to play differently to obtain that reward. Player agency isn't touched at all, and neither is balance, but you might be able to sway someone to a mindset to spread hooks and maximize their reward.
Anything that intrinsically rewards gameplay, or affects the gameplay directly, is a direct balance change (buff to killer or nerf to survivors in this case).
This was fun. Good chat, sir
Long time lurker but your last paragraph is absolutely the problem at it's core. The over confidence in which I see people believe BHVR won't in the foreseeable future throw up their hands and go "Yes, these methods are indeed toxic, please stop." is honestly amazing. Realistically all it takes is a clickbait video by a party big enough outside DBD general circles about how one side makes it where 4 players in the lobby are unable to play and is endorsed by the devs.
Because at the end of the day, no matter what people say bully survivors flashlighting/sabo/etc are interact-able actions all of which the killer can deny even easier now with combos like weave/franklin which is meta. Survivors have second chance perks but if a killer wants you on the ground miserable and unable to do anything unless you or or team are god tier at survivor there's really nothing that can be done.