Tunneling is overblown
I will start this by saying this. My experience is not the same as everyone else’s and I do play at higher MMR. I do play Killer and Survivor and will approach this from both perspectives.
From Killer perspective, tunneling is only optimal if you find the “weak link” early on in the match. Trying to tunnel an above average Survivor early in the match will cause them to run to the strongest portions of the map while most of the pallets are still up. If you’re going to tunnel, it has to be a Survivor that doesn’t have great map awareness and is a weaker looper. Otherwise, it simply takes too long burning through god pallets and main building loops. In endgame, there’s no reason to chase anyone else and the face camping penalty and anti-tunnel perks are disabled. Its quite literally the game design to tunnel at that point.
From the Survivor perspective, with good game sense (or Widows of Opportunity), being tunneled early in the match gives you the ability to take the Killer on some long chases. Most of the pallets are up and you can abuse the strong, safe parts of the map to buy your teammates time to work on generators. Its actually a big positive because if you’re the first chase no one else has used anything so you probably won’t get stuck in a dead zone due to a missing filler pallet. Late game, tunneling is a legitimate strategy. There are more dead zones and the Killer has already lost a of a generators, so there’s a lot more pressure to get someone out of the game. It doesn’t feel great to be the Survivor thats singled out but late game its pretty normal.
Comments
I enjoyed this game immediately. I do not take a loss while learning as bad. In any pvp game there is a learning curve. Expect losses will occur and just enjoy the ride. If the core game is not their thing then they will probably not come back. It looks like it’s just unfortunate that they do not enjoy what the game is.
Well yeah its a great story but it doesn't change my point.
There is an arbitrary point where you decide that tunneling is acceptable and then do it. The story here is an example of that.
A lil thought exercise here.. Why is your version of "appropriate tunneling" more justified than someone else's, who may have a different ruleset for when its appropriate?
A side note.. You have to be able to answer this without applying any kind of assumed motivation or moral standard on your opponent for it to be rationally unbiased. For example
"If someone is playing in a manner that prevents my fair play, such as extremely purposeful body blocks (I'm talking, running behind the other survivor and stopping in a doorway so I can't pass), I will suspend my normal playstyle and give them what they want."
This statement qualifies the opponent as acting unfairly simple by trying to body block and then implies they want (or deserve) to be tunneled purely because of it. What they did, something many players ask for from their teammates, is simply helped a team mate by taking a hit and potentially taking aggro.
Why is this very basic and normal piece of gameplay grounds for you to engage in, as you put it, boring, lame and unfair tunneling?
Isn't this just another example of my previous point of using a playstyle you don't like to try and punish a different playstyle you don't like and feel justified in doing so? Kind of tit-for-tat.
So if your intent is to use tunneling maliciously to punish other behaviour isn't that motivation worse than someone who just uses it to try and win a game?
You sign up for any potential game play whenever you sign up for a game of DBD tournament or otherwise.
Isn't one of the main points for the existence of perks to counter existing play styles?
By this logic it should be egregious that players try to repair gens simply because gen regression perks exist.
I think that's more an exception to the norm, honestly.
Even I didn't really like the game for a long while.
Fair enough I'm not here to change the way you think about it just merely offer an alternative perspective that may help with the complaint that new players you introduce to the game aren't having any fun.
Yeah overall its on the game but the game is not bad its just hard, and anything hard is made easier and more enjoyable by good people to share that experience with.
I'm afraid your "truths" aren't that unbiased at least not the first two and even then the third one is a lil exaggerated.
Your perception of what's pleasant is subjective.
You only gain little because you are putting a lot of negativity in the first place which leaves little to gain, remember the fun of playing is the primary gain, before BP's or anything else. If you are going in with the precept that its not fun you've already severed your gains.
Its a hard game with a long learning curve and better match making could assist better with this but simply by pairing with a more experienced player you get dragged up a lil and its made harder which is not ideal. But how long that takes is up to the individual, not everyone is gonna invest a huge amount of time to get where they want to be unless where they want to be is the upper echelons of play.
You ask a very good question why would someone play if that was their outlook on things, which makes me ask why do you play?
I think if this was the case the game would be vastly more unpopular than it is.
It is a shame that you aren't getting out of it what you feel you put in, but most players likely aren't in that boat, even when new because there are relatively stable participation numbers and still generally gains in player base. (Admittedly this is from steam chart data so grain of salt but you can't deny there are a lot of people playing and having a good time doing so).
Compare DBD to F13, or similar, which lost all interest on a much shorter timeline.
To be fair, F13 got kneecapped early on by legal issues.
I don't play, not really anymore. Every once in a while some friends will want to see if Survivor is fun again, it's not. Every once in a while, I'll play some Killer, but I'm tapped out. I've pushed as high as I can on Console, I've played comp, scrim nights and Community Cups. There's not much left for me on Killer and while I'd like to be on par with someone like Ayrun or Hens as a Survivor, it's just not gonna happen with how unpleasant the game usually is, playing alone is awful and most of my experienced friends have long since quit.
Killer says that it is boring because all ideas are blocked and the meaning of thinking is taken away. Survivor says that in the past there was a lot to think about, but the specifications have changed so that there is no need to think about it, and the work has become simple and boring.
Putting winning and losing aside, the differences between the complaints on both sides are as follows. Survivors feel that if they came to play a thrilling horror game, it would have been a horror attraction at an amusement park. Survivors only have to lose the Killer with a dry feeling chase, and if they are down in the right place, they have no chance of losing to anyone other than a certain powerful Killer. If they lose, it's either because the killer is much better at it, or just unlucky, or it's often just because of a malfunctioning MMR.
To some effect but the legal issues never stopped the game being available to play it simply started to die off due to stagnating game state. Although if folks haven't tried the solo play kill quests they are still worth the 10 bucks for a hour of bloody fun even if the main game is ironically well... dead.
Maybe that's for the best... DBD has been out for a long time and you seem burned out on it. I don't play as much as I used to either not because I'm tired o fit, there is just new stuff to play.
Age of Wonders 4 eats up a lot of my game time these days but a 4x requires a lot of time to play. I keep coming back to DBD because if I have a 30-40 min window I can crack out a couple of self contained games without any real commitment and that's just great.
I'm sorry but while I can agree to this on certain aspects I just have to point out that for those killers you speak of some of them are in the same damn boat the new survivors are in,ive seen and been part of those games where a newbie killer is bullied to the point of quitting the match which isn't fun either. This may seem like a fair take in your head but the reality of it is this;the community has its own intelligence they can choose ways of playing the game that doesn't impact the new players but also doesn't mess up their way of playing yet because everyone likes to play dbd like it's mlg both killers AND survivors make the game overall hard to have fun on killers because even f they have no intent to kill but want BP can't even do that without being set with survivors intent to bully.
Now I understand yes that is just how dbd is but when everyone complains about the issues of today especially with perks just to give an example like they were reworked BECAUSE of the way survivors used them and how infuriating it was to deal with if playing killer much like how before certain killer perks or just the killers themselves underwent reworks they had means to be the biggest pains for new and experienced survivors so this is what ima say to end my comment...guys if you want sh#t plays to end and people to have fun then people needa drop their want to use builds specifically chosen only to piss off each other because let's be honest yall all have a build like that you most likely use when having dealt with sweats for 2-4 games meaning it adds to the ongoing problem and the major issue I hear from both fellow killers and wonky survivors mind you I play the scratched mirror build as I only really main Myers or yoruichi because I love being like Georgie from IT just more asianed up and minus the hood so I say this with a full 100% seriousness as I also gotta point this out but bruva you do realize mmr means jack diddly squat if you play with friends of a lower mmr than yourself you usually are put in games with those of an overall low mmr as a killer. You not want to bring that up? That's why killers start wanting to play toxic and its what for the Survivors who are new and not of your group or overall mmr to get screwed over as they end up with people who've had more exp than they themselves do so there's alot more of an issue with this than being admitted to.
It's less burn-out and more, "Where do I go from here."
I've played almost 6K hours of Killer and there haven't really been a lot of interesting and innovative powers recently.
You don't understand my point.
If that was the case then OTR and Reassurance would have been a thing from the beginning of the game. Also 'countering' is a strong word for something that merely delays it.
But counter doesn't mean nullify in totality, a delaying action is still a counter, its a reduction in effectiveness also known as a counter.
You don't need OTR and reassurance to out play a killer hell bent on trying to eliminate you, just as a killer doesn't need to "tunnel" in order to win.
Try a stealthy build Spine chill, Iron will, PG and lucky break for instance and avoid it all together.
Or bite the bullet, lucky break and scratch mark hiding perks. vanish mid chase and heal. It can be crazy fun and really punish a killer that wants to try and focus you out.
There are a bunch of videos about builds like this and making them work, why not give them a try?
I get your point it just lacks imagination when trying to outplay, or counter, "tunneling"
This is the perfect answer to all the complaints about tunneling
Sometimes I think survivors truly believe that everytime they get hooked, they automatically deserve a free reset as soon as their unhooked.
interestingly your argument is much more forgiving towards the killer side regarding what they deserve and what not
For the first 6-7 years of this games life, it was HEAVILY favored the survivor side. We're finally seeing things go slightly in the killers favor, and we finally hit the 60/40 kill rate the game should have ALWAYS had, and all the sudden the survivors are in revolt. Forgive me for not taking most of the complaints seriously
i'm not sure anyone really cared (or should care) if you took any complaint seriously, but it is a bit weird how you project your wishes and expect people to accept them as facts.
Chucky is a licensed Killer, as a survivor main I'm not willing to spend real money just because I want to be able to play custom in third person.
I'm sure you're only trying to be helpful but there is really no excuse that such a basic feature is still missing after almost 8 years.
Well, I just met a deathslinger that shot me thru wall edges and tunneled me straight away, nothing I could do with windows or anything.. either bugg that he could shoot me thru walls, or he might be cheater (don't know if cheats like that exits)
I have couple thousend hours in this game, but still get lobbies with people that don't know how to fix tapes vs ringu and stuff...
I'm starting to get really sick of this community, it's always negative emotions involed, even from the winners side..
this MMR thing has totally destoryed the feel and fun of the game... same perks always and same tunneling way to many times...
If a casual fun horror game is what one want, this is not it.. first of all you need 500+ hours to even unlock a decent amount of characters and perks, only to have competive mindset ruin every game the higher you get...
But I guess at this point, that is seens as a "good" thing from the devs... since people have to grind so many hours before they realize it's a ######### community at the top.
The main reason why killers dig tunnels is because they can permanently stop one person's work, which means they want to prevent the gen completing. The optimal solution for the anti-tunnel is obvious, as it has been talked about a lot, but all you have to do is shake up the killer and say, "Do you want to kill me? That's fine, but the gen will be completed in the meantime." However, for beginners, this seems like an incredibly hard task and no one can do it properly.
Because it’s not really a necessary feature it’s a convenience so inevitably you have to work within the limits of what you have and what’s available.
Sure, it's just convenience, but it would make practicing easier, so I think it is disingenuous to complain about lack of skill without acknowledging the lack of a good tutorial/practicing options.
Also, when they released bots for custom, they said that Killer Bots would come later. That was November 2022. The Trapper Bot is already in the Tutorial, why not add him to custom atleast? I would be fine with an option where the Killer just stands in a corner aswell, but after more than a year there hasn't been any update, so I'm not super optimistic at the moment.
I am OCE region and I don't see it that often but I have been playing on NA servers quite a lot lately and I must say you guys have a lot more shameless tunnelling than we do, so I can see if you are in NA you may feel tunnelling is out of control.
I really hope BHVR does start to deal with this, comp players say it will ruin comp but I do not care what they want as they are not the majority of the playerbase.
Tunnelling should be made very difficult to get an advantage from, as it ruins the game for so many casuals
Tunneling at 5 gens is autowin.
Then bring Noed.
With the slightest effort you win.
Disingenuous oh please there was time when games had no tutorials and not even any manuals and we all got along fine.
Just play the game.
Sounds too close to what people against accessibility settings say.
Oh god, no that is very different.
Are you really equating systems in place to allow people with an inability to play something due to unchangeable physical limitation to those whom are simply unwilling to learn something they are completely capable of learning simply because there isn't a tutorial.
Those are two very different things.
To equate them in any way is to insult people who genuinely need those tools. Mindfulness sometimes backfires when thoughtlessly used as a weapon in an unrelated discussion.
To the quoted response at hand, which is my being "disingenuous" by offering up options for someone to learn map layout within the current tools available.
I'm guessing that the person in question doesn't really know what disingenuous means. Which is evident from their reply.
So I stand by my point that its possible to learn map layout playing killer in custom games and its the only option at the moment. So if they want to learn map layout then play some killer in custom games. If they need a 3rd person view then Chucky is currently the only option for them. If they don't want to buy chucky then yeah that sucks but its what they have to work with... a point that is simply pragmatic and in no way disingenuous.
As evidenced in the reply below. I didn't saying anything about skill all I did was point out the tools currently available to do what they wanted which was learn map layout.
If the point is that "there is no excuse for there to be no custom game mode to practice as survivor" then well.... Tutorials are a convenience not a necessity.
I said that it sounds very similar, not that it was the same thing.
"Back in my day, we didn't have any of these things; get used to it and stop whining."
You knew what you were doing.
You framed it as safely as possible but you knew and it wasn't cool.
I didn't frame anything. I drew a comparison to things I have heard in the past from people using the same argument against features like visual TR, removing Doctor's flashing hallucinations and flashlight clicking.
I've tried to get people to play Killer but they don't want to put up with the harassment and BMing. So I've tried both ways (Killer and Survivor) and neither has worked. DbD is not really new player friendly.
None of which is relevant to the topic and used to frame my point as being outdated and inconsiderate of accessibility options which is completely unrelated.
It’s an attempt to undermine the topic indirectly by creating a negative association. A very common but rather weak tactic when called out. As you have been called out here.
Actually if you had just said the “in my day” quip that would have been direct, apt and kinda funny, but your attempt to tie it to accessibility options painting the jibe in some kind of benevolent veneer and the subsequent backpedal on your intent is a great example of disingenuousness.
You’ve tried to use special needs as a weapon to shut down unrelated discussion in complete disregard for those special needs, which only demonstrates your own disregard for them. It’s a lil ironic and rather disingenuous.
So by some comedic irony this lil segue has provided a great example of the topic at hand, disingenuous sentiment.
I do enjoy good comic irony. I guess I should just put a bow on this one and say thanks.
I just had a solo match against a Doctor, that hard tunneled the weakest player out (he wouldn't chase anyone that could loop for more than ten seconds). Then proceeded to patrol gens for the rest of the match. We managed to get two players out, but it took about half an hour to do.
Tunneling is the most anti-social way of playing the game. Targeting one survivor whilst ignoring everyone else, and forcing survivors into matches that last much longer than anyone wants to be there. I could have played three fun games in the time it took to get through that one awful match.
I really hope the DS change is strong enough to make what I described as a losing strategy. Bullying the weakest survivor out of the game and holding the remaining players in a thirty minute match, should not be a such an effective crutch for when your looping abilities are terrible.
My man literally took a single sentence, wrote multiple essays about it, took it completely the wrong way and infers that I hate people with disabilities.
The only person I hate who has disabilities is myself and I will not take the accusation that I hate disabled people lightly; especially not after all the arguments I had fighting FOR accessibility in this game.
I never said you hate people with disabilities just that you were inconsiderate of how you used the topic in this case.
Take the lesson, there is caring about important topics and there is trying to look like you care about important topics. Our actions and words often speak to which of these we are engaging in at the time.
Think about it and if you are going to comment, then stand by your comment. People may not agree or like my opinions and they don't have to, but I'm nothing if not direct in my points and genuine in my convictions.
We've strayed far enough from the thread topic.
"only demonstrates your own disregard for them [people with special needs]"
Quoted from you directly.
In this case you did display disregard for it. Nothing you have said has changed that, only demonstrated your failure to realize it.
To be fair I didn’t sense that he was suggesting you are against accessibility features. I believe he was drawing a parallel (that I too have seen btw) between the arguments of people who are against anti-base kit features for survivors and people who were against accessibility features. Just my interpretation.
There is no top 5% the soft cap means average joe that's decent at video games is already there after playing for a while. It's nearly impossible to get below the cap once you're there as well.
I highly doubt they have any interests in fixing tunnelings tbh.
What was the purpose of making that point in this context though?
Think about it what bearing does that point have on the conversation at all?
It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion.
It implied by saying that tutorials aren’t a necessity in gaming that I would also have to believe that accessibility option aren’t either. A gross assumption and when called on that assumption they simply non-committedly back-pedalled on it.
Which funnily enough was an example of disingenuousness that was relevant to the topic. It’s why I pressed the issue because I’d thought that’s what we’d get.
The point is tutorials not being a thing is completely different from accessibility options not being a thing. They aren’t the same.
To imply they are is to insult people who need accessibility options.
I think he just drew a parallelism that makes sense in his mind. Maybe there was no point; it could have just been a random thought that occurred to him which he shared with you. Could have been knee-jerk. Or quite possibly to him it seemed relevant enough to share. But I don’t believe he was labeling you as anti-accessibility (or even someone against basekit features).
A 1-minute chase can already lose you the game though. You have to pick up, walk to hook, look for gens with progress. By that time a minimum of 2 should pop, third gen with progress you just interrupted.
I am seldom being tunneled myself. I don't mind when it happens though. Chases are more fun than playing quick-time-event on the generators.
As killer the only case where I would "tunnel" on purpose is if gens are almost gone and I need a kill only if to slow them down.
There is of course the involuntary case where survivors are (almost) clones. But I'd call that a self-inflicted wound.
Not if you have the aforementioned perks. PR will stop one, you'll stop and kick another with Pop and Deadlock will further block more.
Also, Grim exists.
Like I said, even id you're chase is terrible it doesn't matter if you run gen slowdown.
Examples of how weak tunneling is, how strong OTR is, how the new map has many loops that are beneficial to survivors, and how survivors can be gen powered in 10 minutes even if there is a slight mistake on their part.
https://youtu.be/CQKl9Bh23B0?si=J3bOET-b78YVDAjMOf course, it was a match where the survivor's skill in chasing shined, but it also proved that even if you make a mistake, a survivor will not be sacrificed in 5 gen just by being tunneled by the killer. Unless the survivor is playing around, the gen will definitely complete.
That doesn't make it any less of a weak point to make.
I mean if they just made the "back in my day" quip implying I was some old fogey that would have been both apt and funny.
But to try and draw attention to accessibility in some kind of weak veneer of benevolence unrelated to the topic at hand was just on the nose.
But I suspected it wasn't genuine and it afforded an opportunity to pull some disingenuousness out of the bag. That made for some interesting and entertaining discussion, which was the topic at hand and why we are here.
It played out in a manner that I'm satisfied with and we've strayed far enough from the thread topic I have no wish to hijack it further.
"Villainy wears many masks, none so dangerous as the mask of virtue" - Sleepy Hollow.
So you're admitting that at least as long as the survivors are stronger than the killers, there's no need to fear the tunnels? That's fine then.
Even if the chase time were halved, judging from this example, there is no way it would end in 5gen. In particular, one game shows an example of completing 2 gen in 120 seconds, as I mentioned somewhere. There were some matches with the opposite pattern, but they bounced back from there and were able to complete gens all at once. This may seem unusual to you, but I want to make it clear that this situation can easily occur in matches between intermediate players, both Survivor and Killer, even if they are not advanced players. If not, the survivor is probably using the wrong method to win the game and neglecting to complete the gen. Based on my values, I wouldn't call such a person an intermediate person.
To be honest, I think you're just used to me attacking what you say and read too much into it, which you know, fair enough.
I'll tell you full-stop what I meant and what I wanted you to get from it. Perhaps that will clear up this misunderstanding.
Think about what your words can be understood as and be careful choosing them; this argument sounds too close to what people said in regards to accessibility. Just because things were one way does not mean they should stay that way, things are allowed to be easier. The game has changed so much from when you or I began playing; there's so much to learn and so much to do, it can be overwhelming. A better tutorial would serve newer players well, if you can think of an argument that doesn't sound like you want people to suffer just for the sake of it, please say it.
That's about what I wanted you to get.
But should a terrible chase get gens done in the first place? Or only not if a killer brings the top 5 forced meta perks, when there are 200+ other perks
To me your “there was a time when games had no tutorials and not even any manuals and we all got along fine" - comment sounds like "it was worse in the past so you shouldn't complain about the supoptimal situation now".
I didn't say that you are disingenuous but ignoring the lack of tutorials in the skill discussion is. Generally I would agree that most dbd players are not that great but I do think that the lackluster tutorial and training options are part of the problem. My translator app translates disingenuous with a word that fits what I'm trying to say and with words that are a lot harsher (and imply mean intent) so it was probably not the right word to use in this context but I didn't found a different one quickly.
Again, I didn't want to call you disingenuous, but to me you seem not very understanding, because someone told you that the Tutorial options aren't good enough and you are like "Well, it is what it is, use some inconvenient workaround and stop complaining". Also, I don't think learning map layout was the main problem for the person you originally replied to, but I might be projecting there.
From my experience tutorials are included in newer games, I get that that was different in the past, but expectations change and coupled with the fact that the Devs already promised custom survivor only games I think I'm not unfair in my disappointment that they are still not available.
Also, I did start dbd before there was a tutorial. For me it was not a fun experience as Killer or Survivor, without more experienced friends I would have dropped the game.