Why should I not tunnel?
Big picture question : Why do I need to tunnel to win and how do we prevent it?
The answer is : survivors need to be less efficient at finishing generators & killers need to be less efficient at killing survivors. Mathematically there is nothing wrong with the survivors having two gens done if one survivor has lost two health states. That is a bare minimum that is fair for the killer. But this is the speed at which the survivors want to finish their objective even though it only reinforces my need as killer to tunnel.
Tunneling is 100% cause and effect. If survivors tunnel generators it forces the killer to tunnel one of them out of the game to have a chance to win. If killers play enough strong SWF teams they become conditioned to tunnel every game because it is the most viable strategy. Survivors being hit with this tunnel meta respond with "more gen rush" that reinforces the need to tunnel even more.
There is even a very simple idea to fix the problem that plagues games past "middle" MMR that will make the game way more fun for good players. I won't be typing it here today however.
I'm at a point in the game where most of the survivors in my lobby are 2,500 hour to 10,000 hours played. Most of the time I get either : 2x 2 man swf, 3x swf or 4x swf. If you look like a 3/4 man swf and have lots of items I pick a different lobby. That's just too much of an advantage to overcome unless I feel "in the mood".
When I play a game as killer one of two things happen.
A) I tunnel one player out of the game quickly and the survivors struggle.
B) I am unable to tunnel for some reason and then I struggle to play vs 4 people.
Generally speaking my repeating kill pattern is something like : 4k , 2k, 4k, 0k.
The games at either end of this extreme are not fun for anyone. On the left side I tunnel one player out very quickly (maybe one gen is done and I stil have a very strong 3 gen). On the right side I might only have 2 hooks so the survivors didn't even have the possibility to pip.
The 2k game is still extremely frustrating for everyone because I'm still camping slugging and tunneling. It just so happens that the outcome is close. Reasons for that include : the survivors were in a 3 man that looked like a 2 man swf because their bro logged in on xbox instead of pc, the survivors had a boon, the survivors had reassurance, the game was held on an extremely stupid/unfair map like forsaken boneyard, what I thought were 3 brown medkits were in fact purple medkits or insta heals, the surv team had a clutch deliverance/unbreakable.
The fun game is the 4k before the 0k. And even though I killed all four players (or one got out via hatch) the match was nearly completed usually several times by the remaining three survivors. To be clear here: this game isn't fun because I won. The game is fun because it's close. There were good chases, good gen pressure but in the end I had an edge because all the super annoying things from the 2k game weren't there. I will mention breifly that I do not play Nurse or Blight anymore (and return to this later).
Inside the A and B options there are also some predictable flow chart patterns.
Let's consider the A path first.
1) If I hook a survivor and three gens pop the only way I am going to come back is if I hook the downed survivor next to a 3 gen and literally camp them to death (or stage two and immediately tunnel them down). If that happens the game just ended in my favor - but nobody knows it yet.
2) If the tunneling process is long due to a perk/good teamplay then I might be left with 3 gens that are hard to defend. I will have to down one player (slug them) and injure at least one of the other two players and then I can potentially keep the last player off the gens. If the survivors do not have a boon active then I can still possibly win this - but just barely.
3) If three people are alive and I have what my friend calls a "Y gen" (inverted 3 gen) then the gens are impossible to defend and I just need to down one person whenever I can and accept the 2k. The only way to come back from this is if any of the survivors become timid (want to escape and stop playing), or as killer I have strong 4v1 potential : Pinhead/Nemesis/ maybe pig on the right day.
The B path ends with three or four players escaping, Tbagging at the gate and name calling.
Question : If I win 3/4 game via tunneling then why should I do anything but tunnel?
Followup Question : Since I only seem to win something like 33% of games where I don't tunnel then why should I not tunnel?
Note:
I don't play Blight or Nurse because I believe the game should be in a state where every killer is viable and the difference between the best and worst killer is something like 15% "chase power". To quantify that you can look at doctor and sometimes with perfect play a doctor needs 5 or 6 shocks to get a m1 hit. With nurse you just blink twice and if your range was correct then you cannot miss.
The difference between those two killers in terms of lethality in a chase is close to 55% at my estimation in terms of effectiveness. That number is my opinion and completely arbitrary but you get the point. If we had a machine perfect killer that had wallacks and 0 ping you could see even with perfection the doctor would look terrible by comparison.
The only time I would have a chance at winning the 0k game is if I played Nurse or Blight every game. And in all the other scenarios I would not need to tunnel to win. But if I did tunnel with Blight/Nurse the game would be a complete joke (as can be seen by people who wanted to get 100-200-500 nurse game wins in a row).
Comments
The fact that you actually think this is what people are saying is laughable.
The Killer bias is incredible.
It's not about the why it's about the fact that it is not balanced.
More specifically with how easy/convenient of a choice it is for killers (YES Even those who are already winning do it). Devs need to address this playstyle where a perk isn't necessary to soft counter it.
Tunnelling is always going to be caught in a situation of being the most effective way to get someone out of the game, and making the game take longer won't disincentivise it. Nerfing tunnelling won't disincentivise it (just make people more frustrated about doing it). Incentives to go chase someone else, or start a suboptimal chase in general rather than hanging around the hook, need to exist beyond a few really niche perks.
I don't think suggesting people stop tunnelling if that's how they get wins and just focus on having 'fun games' really works. Killers start a match in a stressful situation and it only gets more stressful if losing. Chases aren't a luxury to be enjoyed when there's three unharried Survivors on gens somewhere, and chases at this stage of matches are dominated by pallet availability anyway.
And with old BBQ gone, there's no real "well, at least I got my stacks" feeling of achievement somewhere. Hook states are an incomplete objective; it'd be like taking satisfaction in half completing gens. So 2-3 hook, 0k games don't even have a consolation prize to shoot for now. And, to boot, there's no reverse-hatch scenario where you can at least get something.
This, pretty much.
I try not to tunnel unless it's coming down to the wire, but I can conclusively say that it's lost me a lot of games that I could have won, had I focused someone a bit more aggressively.
Eh...it doesn't need to be every match. There's no way to know what sort of survivors you're facing until you've already lost. What I try to do is go in expecting every group to be insanely good, and then dial it back if need be.
Because - if it's a really good team, you're going to need to get someone out ASAP. Watching the recent Cup games, killers tactically camped, slugged and tunneled a fair amount - and they still had a hell of a time of it.
BBQ was so damn great in that it encouraged a healthy killer playstyle - until you got that one butt who would DC specifically to deny you a stack, or simply couldn't find that Feng all game.
Here's the thing though. They don't need to be experts. They just need to be people at your MMR solo, but now in a SWF with a nasty map offering and stacked perks. That will already turn a 'fair' game into a brutal slog that you'll be lucky to get 1k from, unless they make a serious mistake.
Average (ie, 95% of players) make mistakes. Punish them accordingly.
The Cup games are also legitimate Competitive teams. You DO NOT find those teams out and about. Most of them do not play pubs.
Likewise, that wasn't their assertion. They said that they only played against professionals. Quite simply, they're lying.
Everyone makes mistakes, sure.
The question is - are those mistakes that can turn the game around? That's a lot less common and extremely contextual.
My point is that skill is relative. If I was put up against 4x 200 hour survivors, they'd probably lose no matter what map they got, perks they ran or killer I was on.
If those same survivors faced a 50 hour killer, that killer would probably get stomped.
It's very tricky.
There is a certain point where the hour difference isn't impactful anymore.
Like for instance, myself. I've got about 3.5K hours, mostly into Killer. I can win consistently against people with 10K hours. Now, hours don't necessarily equate to skill, but these guys do have the most escapes on Xbox and the other instance I'm thinking of was against Tofu.
And likewise, to your point about mistakes. Most of them can and will turn the game, especially at higher levels of play. Healing when you shouldn't have is a big one.
Survivors will always be in a good position at the start of the game, to the point where yes, you can lose a couple gens or so pretty quick. But as the game goes on and the killer employs strategy, the survivors position will weaken as their resources (pallets) diminish. As a survivor, I never count a match over if we manage to knock out a few gens quick because it doesn't take more than a few mistakes and a few deadzones for the game to snowball in the killer's favour.
"strawman lol"
Most people who use that word are parrots. As such I have posted a related image.
"-Trying to get value of prove thyself early in the match is a bad macro play from the survivors and will set yourself to fail."
This is extremely false. The better killers like Nurse and Blight can down stupidly fast. You can't finish a solo gen in that time. Two players can however break a 3 gen before it happens.
"i was actually petty enough that i went and counted his W/Ls on his last stream."
I see you fell prey to the Howard Stern effect. Most people want to mention Otz's stream but to be honest the people I see in Otz's stream for the most part were players of a caliber I stopped seeing the second we had MMR turned on. This was incredibly clear when you watch his version of the 30 second afk challenge and True doing the same thing. The survivors absolutely threw about seven or eight games vs Otz and only one game vs True.
The average player does not win well against people who play DBD professionaly as their job. Your tally of his winrate is meaningless. How many games did he play that stream against a stacked 4 man team who all used the same offerings, picked a map and had 2x iri item addons + meta perks? How did that game go?
How long are your Killer Queues?
This is false and I will provide an example to prove it. It's very simple : If there is a reward that is better than tunneling someone out then killers will do that instead.
Imagine if hooking a survivor reduces the generator repair rate (as well as healing, totems, doors, etc.) for all survivors by 8% if they have never been hooked before. That would mean if you hook all 4 survivors as your first hook then everyone has -32% to all actions. To prevent the rewarding of tunneling : if a survivor is hooked for the first time after someone is killed then that no longer provides an 8% penalty.
That would be better than tunneling out one survivor. Now imagine we got a "redo" to Dying Light so that it offered no bonus to survivors and read : If you hook a survivor that was not the last survivor hooked then all survivors get a stacking penalty of 4% for all actions.
Now in the same scenario you could tunnel out one player or you could get three unique hooks. Getting three unique hooks will bypass all the nasty things like DS and Off the Record. And every survivor in the game would have -24% + -12% penalty to all actions. The first few gens would fly like normal but the end of the game would be very slow. If you got in an 8 hook situation where no one had died then the penalties would be something like : 32% + 24 to 32% slowdown.
Imagine if you stacked Sloppy Butcher and Dying Light with two gen regression perks. Healing would be terrible with a minimum of -75% healing speed (and of course all healing would be reset if you stop).
-"Survivors have been win-shaming Killers for years ... Don't tunnel, camp, or slug."
The problem with tunneling is that survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled in return. That is a logic fault. Something like Basekit Deadlock would go a long way to prevent gen rushing. Add that and then add a minimum requirement of gens to be done before a player can be picked up to be hooked the last time (probably no deaths before 3 gens makes sense).
What makes tunneling scummy? One player doesn't get much of a game. Well The killer doesn't get much of a game when all the gens are completed when he has two hooks. I have seen games in the last month where this has happeend to every killer main I have watched (Hens, Truetalent, Otz, Bronx, etc).
You need to stop this rhetoric. Survivors want to tunnel gens and then get chased when the doors are at 99% and nothing matters because they can't really get killed and are not in any danger. That is scummy.
Remove tunneling for both sides or don't touch it.
Nerf Blight Nurse and SWF (as well as their addons and Spirit's addons).
-"I've got about 3.5K hours, mostly into Killer. I can win consistently against people with 10K hours. Now, hours don't necessarily equate to skill"
Do you play Doctor, Clown (wthout pinky), wraith, Trapper Pig and MM (no purple tombstone/ infinite t3)? Or do you just play Nurse and Blight?
You need to be careful with statements like that. It's very clear as a generalization that 1 hour < 50 hours < 500 hours < 1500 hours < 5000 hours.
Once a player gets to 2000-000 hours it kinda becomes true. If the player in question watches a lot of streams they will play way beyond their hour count because they can pick up traits that a 9k hour player learned without spending 9k hours.
The other issue is: can the player play killer and survivor? Survivor mains often just don't even know what options a killer has for addons.
Back in 2018 or so I had friends that could loop literally for 2 mintues at a time. But they were powerless against Nurse. I was able to make Nurse mains drop chase over and over again and they didn't understand why. It was because I know how to play Nurse and know her limits. Also I ran spinechill before it was meta because I knew from a discussion with Horvath that it gave 6% to vault speed. SC also let you know instantly if a nurse had the right blink angle or not.
My region is almost always 100% killer bonus after the sun goes down until a few hours before sunrise. I haven't really counted as an average but most of the time it's enough to buy two to five items in a blood web.
As I have said before 90% of my lobbies are 2x 2 man SWF, 3x SWf or 4x SWF. I will only ever play a 3 or 4 man group if they : do not have lots of items, do not stack offerings and do not pick a map (unless ithey do something dumb like pick PH map or The Game when I am playing a killer with an ability to negate pallets).
tunneling isn't really the fault of killers, it's a game design issue. players playing player versus player games are going to play to win. even if the entire community doesn't, i'd argue a majority of the players do, even players who have no idea what the word tunneling means that have never touched the greater dbd community beyonds just playing the game. this is a game design issue, not a you issue, killer issue, community issue, or anything. the weird infighting this game constantly gets because person A or B is playing the PVP game appropriately is crazy. don't hate the player, hate the game and criticize bad game design when you see it. it could be as easy as giving a bp incentive like a 'new hook bonus' or something. won't 100% fix the problem, but it's a simple change that'll affect a majority of the audience's games and might make them a little more bearable.
i feel like the solutions to problems like tunneling really aren't all that difficult to figure out, especially with an entire community shouting and crying about what makes the game NOT fun to play. how long did it take behavior to realize that lowering the cost of items would reduce grind? how much longer do you think it's gonna take for us to get through bloodwebs faster instead of spending an hour getting a bunch of random addons you don't really care about? it's nothing but infuriating how slow the devs are to address obvious issues, and in turn the community gets so perturbed by the lack of change we assume we should berate other players for not changing the game for us.
there is no real answer for 'why should i not tunnel' you either do or you don't. if survivors are mad, berate the game mechanics that encourage it. we've been doing generators with absolutely no other map interactivity or goal for YEARS upon YEARS and somehow we still aren't doing that right. kind of sickening looking back at how long the game has effectively played exactly the same regardless of the killer chosen for the match; the only reason BHVR doesn't get more flack for it's lack of ingenuity and change is because everyone else that's tried the asymmetrical killer genre has been overshadowed and died out because of BHVR's huge marketing and existing public presence. if the general community had even just a little bit more sense there would be daily posts up in arms starting an anti-dbd revolt and boycotting the game until we could do something other than generators for a change. but how can we expect that when we haven't even implemented basic QoL changes the entire community agrees upon? how can we expect any other kind of goals when the absolutely most basic parts of the 1v4 format are still abusable in ways that make matches generally less fun for players? how long did it take for basekit BT? why shouldn't you tunnel? hell, why care? why even play this game?
do whatever you want man. we don't need to keep having conversations about the morality of tunneling. this is a BHVR issue, fullstop, and people trying to get at the 'other sides' throats for playing the game how it's designed and presented to us as players are all absolutely insane as far as i'm concerned.
LOL "rhetoric"... get a grip.
Imagine not understanding how BASIC balancing works.
I play Wraith frequently, Doctor semi-frequently and Clown irregularly.
I used to main Blight, but Console Blight was hard. I actually play a lot of Knight and Wesker but I generally rotate through the Killer cast.
Hours don't necessarily correlate to skill. I'll stick by that statement. I suppose I don't really understand what you're trying to say in this first part.
So, roughly 30 seconds or less of queue time. You selectively pick lobbies? Intriguing. Likewise, how do you know people are SWF? Do you check their profiles?
Likewise, if your queues are that short, I have bad news for your narrative. You aren't playing against top MMR players every match. Your queues would be FAR longer, we're talking 15+ minutes. There aren't enough high MMR players to allow queue times to be that short every match, like you claim. Either you're mistaken about your queue times or you're mistaken about the skill of your opponents. I hate to be the person to break it to you but you might need to re-evaluate and start from scratch.
That's a very obtuse point of view considering the gen defense perks we have now are based on one survivor finishing them without voice coms. Eruption and Overcharge are largely pointless if you run away and tell your team to finish your gen while you are being chased.
So you're saying Prove Thyself is pointless if a team has comms. Are you arguing against yourself now?
Stop and listen to what you're trying to say here. Doctor is better than blight at high MMR? You keep saying things that show you know less and less about the game (killer is the power role - kek). Blight was a weak killer when people didn't know about S ,J, Z flicks or hug tech. remove all that and yea he will be a "meh killer" after his addons get balanced to all the other killers. But he will still be better than doctor because he has antiloop and very fast movement.
And on average, Doctor was doing better because he's easier to play, has good control, anti-stealth and tricky-to-use but valuable anti-loop.
But you don't actually care about actual DBD, you only care about the DBD that about 20-30 people play.
You say this with either no empathy or the ability to understand high skilled play. If the first option is the case then every noob crying on the forums (according to you) deserves to get tunneled and deserves team members who D/C.
"That tunneled survivor I face camped on the hook had every opportunity to play survivor even though I never went after anyone else and made his rescue/escape impossible." - This is what you are saying.
Point flying straight over your head.
Let me put it to you this way: Without relying on 'winning or losing' as part of your explanation, how is the gameplay you showed fundamentally different from normal killer gameplay for anyone who is NOT up against the literal best team in the world?
What part of his gameplay was actually inhibited?
Boons don't save minutes of survivor team time. Neither does prove thyself, streetwise/built to last (and all gen perks), dead hard (and all other exhaustion perks).
That is correct, boons don't save time. CoH might save a little time, but not a lot anymore.
Prove Thyself saves no time.
Streetwise/Built to Last might save time with the right toolbox. Oh, but hang on, Built to Last now also has a time investment to use, so that's probably off the list as well.
Dead Hard might extend a chase a bit, but that's not a catch-up mechanism, is it?
Also there are not medkits you can find to heal you. Nor is it possible to get a greentoolbox in a chest. And there can never be a key in a chest- oh wait that is in fact a possibility and you simply don't understand the game (or don't want it to be balanced).
Chests are literally never worth it. Whatever you get out of it will not compensate for the time loss. Trust me, I've got a dedicated build on David with Plunderer's, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal, and whatever other perk it was I complemented that build with. It's fun, but that's all it is, because it has a winrate of 0%.
There's a reason no one does chests, and that's because it might as well be a reportable offense in most cases. You are just sandbagging your team if you do a chest instead of a gen.
And KEYS?
All right, pack it up, boys! I know the killer hard-tunnelled one guy out in under three minutes and we still have a gen left to do with one person dead, but the killer doesn't stand a chance now that I have a BROKEN KEY THAT I FISHED OUT OF A CHEST!
"Broken keys turn 4Ks into 3Es!" - DBDVulture, 2022.
What a catch-up mechanic, boy-oh-boy.
-"Hours don't necessarily correlate to skill"
This is correct but there is a caveat. Which player do you want on your team for the million dollar DBD tournament. Do you want the person with 10,000 hours or the person with 100 hours?
Some people just really like a game and never improve. I had a friend with hundreds of hours who was not even as good as someone who became a strong looper at 80 hours. The 80 hour player watched streamers and practiced occasionally in KYF games. The person has to have a desire to get better which usually is a representation of passion. However there is some element of forced repetition that will make people better even against their will.
-"You aren't playing against top MMR players every match. Your queues would be FAR longer, we're talking 15+ minutes."
Your understanding of the match making process is flawed. This isn't two years ago when Marth was playing Starcraft between games of Nurse. The game wants to put you in a match within two minutes. Read what they told us how the Matchmaking process works. It looks for numbers that are close and puts them together. Now remember what we learned from Choy's discussions with people I won't mention about MMR. Your MMR does not matter after 1600 and is really more of a guideline. All the numbers after that point are effectively identical.
Let's pretend for a moment that I'm the best killer in my region according to kill/death ratio ( I'm not but let's pretend I'm in the top #10). We know without doubt that the number of survivors in queue overall massively outnumbers killers. The ratio before 6.0 was something like 100:1. Almost every game I played in the last week as killer was with a +100% bonus. That tells me not many people in my region want to play killer.
If I am a ~1600 MMR player and there are multiple high MMR survivor teams in queue then I should be able to get games very quickly. I noticed within the last month or so that almost all my games have red ping. This is a telltale sign that I am playing people from greater distances than you might expect. Why would the game put us together? It's not my Internet as I have very fast up and down speed (and no one else is using it).
-"Either you're mistaken about your queue times or you're mistaken about the skill of your opponents"
This is a logic fault as there are other possibilities. You ignore the possibility that there are survivors who have been in the queue for ~2 minutes and I am "close enough" to trigger an instant match due to the relaxed search limits.
-"So you're saying Prove Thyself is pointless if a team has comms"
Imagine this team message The shack generator is 60% finished, rotate over while I run him to main. Overcharge - pointless if they touch it instantly. The kick from eruption would be wasted too if you finish the 40% before the killer hits your friend twice.
It's almost as if : -"Point flying straight over your head."
-"And on average, Doctor was doing better because he's easier to play, has good control, anti-stealth and tricky-to-use but valuable anti-loop."
The devs do not record enough stats to actually give us a good picture of their game. I'd love to see Doctor play at 1600 MMR vs 1600 MMR survivors vs 1600 Nurse play at the same level. Doctor isn't going to be on the same level - to be clear the Doctor is going to be drenched with sweat while the Nurse can check their text messages mid game.
Then you need to cross reference the best Doctor in the world with the best Nurse.
-"What part of his gameplay was actually inhibited?"
Since you completely don't get it : almost every killer in the game has a point where you just can't touch survivors who play a near perfect game. Nurse and Blight largely speaking do not have that limitation because they have : fast movment, quick chases and strong anti loop. No other killers have the complete package.
-"CoH might save a little time, but not a lot anymore"
Coconut RTS made a video some time ago where he broke down the games he won and lost counting how many times people healed. Try getting in 20-30 heals per game without a boon.
-"Chests are literally never worth it"
Generally speaking yes but it could pay off if you can't work an important gen and working another gen is pointless due to 3 gen problem or something. You could get a green toolbox which could be huge if you or an ally had streetwise (and you had built to last). Ironically the perks you were trying to make it escape worthy are only going to work for farming with a team that already wins a lot. If you cannot work a generator, heal or rescue an ally then you can try looting a chest that might give you a few seconds of repair speed boost.
-" Built to Last now also has a time investment to use, so that's probably off the list as well."
Generators once completed can't be reset to zero - you seem to keep forgetting that fact. If you finish the generator one second before the killer gets there then that can be worth it.
"-Prove Thyself saves no time."
In a vacuum if there is no pressure from the killer you might be right. But if I'm sitting on a 3 gen and I only leave it for less than 40 seconds at a time you will never break it without a perk like Prove (or another rush perk) if one player is dead. I don't mind if a game goes to 30-40 minutes. There are games where sometimes I sit at the 3 gen setup for 3-4 minutes waiting for a full reset (and this happens several times).
You're ignorance about time savings is adorable. The difference between really good players and "ok" players is that the best survivors pretty much only make great checks. If every player makes 10 great checks per game that's (10 * 4 * 1.2) = 48 seconds. That can easily make the difference between getting the gen completed and only getting it 99% finished.
In that same 3 gen scenario which is better? Two people on the same generator with prove or two people on a 90 second generator that neither can ever possibly finish in 40 seconds?
-"Dead Hard might extend a chase a bit, but that's not a catch-up mechanism, is it?"
Running the killer longer than 40 seconds per hit massively tilts the game to favor survivors. This is what makes Nurse/Blight so good as they can mitigate Shift W and pre-running so that every chase is a good chase. Every chase can be a short with those two killers if you use your power correctly. Many killers like Pinhead, Clown and Doctor can be forced to use their power multiple times against perfect play on strong tiles before it is possible to get a hit. I've seen perfect play with Pinhead require 8 chain hits to get a hit, 6+ shocks from doctor and two reloads from clown.
-"And KEYS?"
Like the story about the starfish - it matters to the one that escaped. Only getting 3 kills is a worse win than getting 4 kills. Like it or not someone getting away because of a key is a catch up mechanic (as is the hatch itself).
'No deaths before 3 gens'.Rofl, no? You do realize Survivors would just 99% as many gens as possible, then pop them all.
Are you seriously telling me you think it would be fair for the Killer to be unable to get a single kill before Survivors do 50% of their objectives? (5 gens + exit gates = 6 objectives).
Plus, this would make Hexes flat-out trash; Survivors could just totem hunt before doing ANY gens, since they are literally unkillable until THEY decide to pop 3 gens.
Oh yeah, and they can troll Killers non-stop because, again, they control if/when they can die by not doing any gens.
Why should Survivors get to control if/when they can die? This is just an entitled idea to yank input away from Killers and let Survivors control their opponent.
How's this for an idea? Survivors can't raise any gen over 75% until the Killer has gotten at least 1 hook on everyone. That seems fair, since 3 gens always pop in the first chase. Let the Killers control Survivor input. 🤦♂️
People want to win their games... so those that are saying that it's only Killers are only seeing one side of it
Tunneling isn't the be all end all either... Tunneling might get you a 4K but it might also get you a 0K... it all depends on how it's used
Maybe play a few matches without Tunneling and learn what you can do better (again without Tunneling)
What's the difference between a survivor tunneling a gen and me tunneling a surv. We are both trying our best to complete our respective objectives. How efficient is it for a survivor to run past a 90% gen, to a 25% gen? In the same breath how efficient is it for the killer to pass up two surv prob healing under hook to walk across the map to find one of the others that haven't been hooked? Tunnelling I've learned is best countered by not being altruistic, if they tunnel your mate then tunnel their gens, to further destroy tunnelling looping better is the ultimate counter. All that being said I do understand the frustration of solo q which is a problem in its own right.
You are 100% correct, but I still see Survivors pretending tunneling somehow nets 15 kills a match, steals Survivor BP, and uninstalls their game, and thus should be punished.
The more survivors tunnel gens with Prove and Toolboxes, the more killers camp and tunnel.
Maybe? But that's a point where you've essentially mastered this game. 3,500 hours...that's enough to master a lot of things.
At that point, yes - it's really about who makes a mistake first. But this is not representative of the vast, vast majority of players or gameplay. I'd love to see numbers on this, actually - how many people are at the 3000+ hour mark when compared to everyone else.
At this point, 6 nearly 7 years into the game?
Probably more than you'd think.
Again, I'd be curious on the numbers, but it would surprise me if it was more than 200.
There's more than two hundred on Xbox alone. I can tell you that for certain.
I CONSISTENTLY see people with hour counts much higher than mine on Xbox.
Even looking on DBD Playerstats (which is only for Steam and only public profiles) the page timed out before I was able to get to 3K hours. It stopped at 3000 something accounts and it was at 4500 hours.
So, I guess, surprise?
So even people who play this game for a living, who play against other people with enormous amounts of time sunk into DBD, don't always need to tunnel?
Well, thank you for agreeing with me!
I know, I was being facetious.
It's either I play at the right time where mmr can match me with players who can actually match me or against players who are running all the good stuff who are nowhere close to my skill. If you are playing a m1 killers all the power to you the survivors quite literally dictate your skill expression and potential to win. Regardless of the perks you are running on wraith, it's the survivors who let you win due to their own skill. Although some maps can change this like swamp and any other map with super close 3 gens. Blight, Wesker and Huntress are the 3 killers I can think of where both sides have an opportunity to outplay the other at the same time in chase(I know incredible).
My biggest issue with dbd is that the best strats on both sides have way less skill expression than normal gameplay, especially on the survivor side. At least when a killer tunnels you, you can out play them if you make it to a tile. But if a survivor decides they want to pre-drop the entire map on fractured cow-shed there really isn't much you can do even on blight, even the filler tiles are too safe. Survivors complain about tunneling and camping which is boring and not very skillful but it goes both ways. It's why comp will never go anywhere in this game, the most efficient strats are always the most boring.
What this person said. If you feel you *have to* tunnel to win, you're bad at the game. Period. Try playing a few matches where you don't tunnel. Get your MMR back down to a level that's appropriate.
You can play the game however you want so long as you follow the ToS and rules.
You're wrong. Period. Try not shaming people for using valid tactics to win.
I love how Survivors think 'This 100% valid tactic is somehow inflating Killers by 456546589074565890745065787% MMR! PUNISH THEM!' and proceed to win-shame like they deserve any input in how their opponents play.
I'm a killer main. I play about 70-80% killer. And I don't have to tunnel to win. And I consistently get 3k/4ks. I'm not flaming you. I'm stating facts. Tunneling is a lazy way to play killer. Get better at looping. Get better at mind games. Get better at chasing survivors. You won't have to tunnel. Period.
And what exactly is your definition of "winning"? 4k? Then all the nonsense above is cringe, and your excuses for justifying tunneling are pathetic. That comes from hook-only Onryo main, btw.
Golden words of wisdom. If anything - this kinda stuff should be BP penalized with extreme prejudice. Like, confiscate everything killer got from tunneling/camping, wherever face or proxy (which is same kinda cringe) and donate to victim under "Distraction" tag. Cuz that's exactly what said victim did - distracted this hypothetical sad joke of a killer the entire time.
Watch out!
The anecdotal statements and bashing have commenced!
Wow.
The scenario in the post you quoted is the definition of losing for a killer. When there are 4 survivors left with only 1 gen left and they are spread out so the killer cannot defend them. At this point the killer has to do something desperate to try to claw the game back. If they choose to follow the imaginary survivor rulebook for killers they are literally throwing the game.
If you say you've never camped, tunneled or slugged as an Onryo main then I'd call you a liar.
Welcome to the forums.
Yeah, their post history is totally 'Rated M for Mature.'
this kinda stuff should be BP penalized with extreme prejudice. Like, confiscate everything killer got from tunneling/camping, wherever face or proxy (which is same kinda cringe) and donate to victim under "Distraction" tagRofl. No.
Yes, Survivors should get BP for being facecamped. No argument.
No, the Killer should not have his BP reduced or stolen just because Survivors think they get to decide what's fair and not. Good lord, tone back the 'Punish people for making me mad!' rhetoric.
Some people just want to play a different game with their own set of make-believe rules and conditions.
Why these people gravitate towards DBD, I'll never know.
Most people understand how the game works, the various shortcomings on both sides, etc.
You're better off saving your posts for such people, although it is sometimes hard to resist the giant targets certain users paint on their backs @_@
It's just my two cents but I think you should--if it gets to a point where tunneling is too effective of a strategy and kill rates creep higher and higher, then it's more likely to be addressed.
Prove thyself save 6sec. Its less efficient for A to spend 20sec running to B’s Gen to save 6sec on B’s Gen.
Just like Coh is strong, but if a teammate healing you would save 5.5sec (10.5 instead of 16). So many people force teammate run for 10-15sec to make save of 5.5sec.
The timing isnt just the number you see on the perk.
I'll never understand why people try so hard to defend tunneling/slugging. As someone who plays both sides, you will literally cost yourself the game (unless you're going against bad players) so it really isn't worth it. I have had bad games and good games, without having the need to tunnel or slug. Not only is it brainless play, it makes the match boring, nothing gained other than someone just wanting to ruin the vibe for people.
To me, it seems like it is nothing but a panacea for players that can't mind-game, get outran by Lithe/other mobility perks and resort to calling those survivors cheaters in match result chat after DCing, or just struggle overall. It also seems the majority that favors tunneling are console players, which act entitled, and are generally toxic.
I honestly have rarely come across toxic killers on PC - normally, they say "ggwp" and "gl on next" whereas most of the BMing killers come from console, and to be fair, it sucks. I do not care, I will DC. It doesn't matter whether or not I could just play serious and run the killer around the map, there's no objective anymore; it's just "I'm gonna make this match drag out as long as possible and make people play passive and wonder why everyone was hiding/escaped"
People play this game way too serious and act like the world will end if they can't slug/tunnel a 4k at 5 gens, all because they see their favorite streamer do it. It is killing the game. How can anything come to light when you chase what's left out of the game?
Don't mean to sound rude and hope everyone has a good Christmas.
I don't think many people have an issue with a Killer who tunnels at 2 gens. That's something I can look at and say, "Well, they need the pressure, they have no other options due to poor game design."
It's the people who tunnel someone out at 5 gens and act like they're playing competitively that most players have an issue with.
CMWinter is a pig main. He plays DBD very well despite playing mostly as pig. That being said there are a number of times where it's tunnel or lose.
Most people don't play most killers (especially the M1's) as well as he does. Most survivors can run the braindead tiles - because it's made to be simple and safe.
It's not an appropriate game mechanic that certain killers just can't beat play above a certain level.