Rookie1978
Rookie1978
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we dont need perk tiers at all
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Uhh.. why not have them at 100? Sometimes I wanna play on my favorite map. Don't know why everyone is crying
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@Skeleton23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963010#Comment_3963010
Are you serious. Nurse is the hardest Character in the game. I barely see a Nurse if I do they are rather bad or God's. The Ghoul is supposed to be easy because they wanted him to be beginner Friendly. Bright I have no idea he's to hard for me to play. The reason why these Killers are barely touched is because they have a high Skill Ceilling. Even if there very Strong or S Tier in strangth. Ghoul is strong because he's easy to play because he's supposed to be. As for Knight and Clown that are B tier Buffing and Nerfing them is a bad idea it's like doing that to The Unknown who has a High Skill ceilling as well. you nerf buff a Killer Like that will put all the Skill for those who put time in them completely for nothing. plus Clown if his goes live his Haste bottles will be nerfed in like week and will be where Skull Marchant is which I'd in the dumpster.
Maybe see why the Killer has there power how it is before you say something on them.
Clowns Purple bottles are his most iconic Power which is to Hinder survivors to catch up to them. His Yellow bottles didn't come in until later when he was reworked. Removing what was Clown will Remove his Identity of what he was supposed to be.
Just get outta here man
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Anyone calling it a 'heal meta' is deranged and out of touch.
For survivors, it's actually a 'free distance' meta where they're given a lot of arbitrary extra time in chase from perks like Sprint Burst and Lithe; and to a lesser extent Finesse. These perks are all within top 5 picks by survivors right now last time i checked nightlight(SB is 2nd I think?) and are ridiculous to play against.
Literally everything wrong with playijg killer right now IMO (other than questionable killer balance design) is the insane amount of extra arbitrary chase time that gets added whenever survivors use these BS zero thought zero skill perks.
Gens popping too fast? Survivors always seem to be healed up by the time you find them again? Killer just seems to be 'harder' to play now? It's because every single survivor is bringing a perk that's adding like 10-15 seconds to a chase for zero skill and zero thought. You have to catch up to these perks just to start the actual ######### chase. Survivors don't even loop anymore they just hold W.
It is the worst ######### part of the game right now. Everything wrong with DBD is concentrated in Sprint Burst and Lithe.
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Most of the time this happens while I play killer it just turns into the world's dumbest, most unnecessary game of hide forever since neither survivor wants to give themselves up. Caught last 2 sitting in basement lockers together; it was petty but I slugged them both. Waste my time for no reason and I do the same
I really wish there was a mercy rule. 3+ gens at 2 survs down? Spawn that hatch. Soon as it closes by killer or 1 surv escaping, exit gates are powered.
I want to see a real hatch race. Force the survs to get moving. Maybe one looks and one waits for gate. Maybe they hide at separate exit gates and wait for killer to close hatch. Maybe survs race against eachother and killer. Maybe surv gives it to other surv. Think about all the interesting moments it could make.
3 kills is already killer win. If a mercy rule cuts down on my 4ks I don't care. If nobody ever escapes there's no potential hope to feed on1.
I see literally no downside. 2 survs left at 5,4,3 gens? Mercy rule. Close game out with hype moments and aura and then everyone can move on
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Me disagreeing with people isn't me instituting a grand conspiracy im just regularly dumbfounded that people can actively play this game and hold that opinion at the same time
In order to facilitate discussion, what exactly do you like about her? What character fantasy is she supposed to fulfill or portray? What does she do compared to other killers that makes you want to play her?
Genuinely curious what merit other people see in her and I've never gotten a straightforward answer so maybe the BHVR forums can give me one
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@jasonq500 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959298#Comment_3959298
Same way as other people who like certain killers despite the controversy she got, with skull merchant I just really like her (especially the 2.0 variant). A killer that has the ability to track survivors with a stealth ability
Hate her all you want, but she's a killer that deserves respect just like the rest of the others killers that some people actually like even if they're flawed
I disagree. If she had literally any redeeming qualities what you said would've had some merit but I fail to see a single positive thing she brought to the game.
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I don't know, as Killer it takes me so many games just to feel like MMR fixes itself and gives me competent survivors to play against, I had to recently force 4ks at 5 gens like a billion games in a row just to get 'normal' dbd games. It's so boring climbing out of the ######### pit just to get to play good dbd matches where I actually have to think and apply myself to win and even then somehow every other lobby i'm going against people who obviously really don't belong in the same bracket
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@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960498#Comment_3960498
Honestly? Hag. She's not really weak, but she does need some milk. Pig, on the other hand, is not even remotely weak. Being bad with a Killer doesn't mean that Killer is weak. She's pretty strong, especially if you know what you're doing.
Yeah man it's time to stop having opinions online
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Removing one survivor from the match as quickly as possible to lower the outnumbered detriment, to the degree that you actively ignore chasing or hooking other survivors even when the opportunity presents itself.
In my opinion, it stops being tunneling in these instances;
The person who keeps getting hooked is unfortunately just bad at the game, and doesn't know how to hide from killer and can't chase worth a damn. They keep getting themselves spotted and go down every time. At that point i'm just removing you from an MMR you clearly shouldn't be in.
The person who keeps getting hooked does so after continuing to make themselves a detriment, by body blocking or otherwise. If you constantly start chases with the killer on purpose, even going out of your way to extend a chase right after you've been unhooked, you are basically choosing to get tunneled, and can't cry tunneling just because the killer gave you the attention you wanted. If you invite a chase, mentally prepare yourself to get hooked.
Your team keeps doing unnecessary hook trades and perform suicidally altruistic plays. At that point, like the 'one bad survivor' reasoning, this whole team just deserves to go next and play against a killer that's more their speed. I don't like letting people get away with ######### plays because they won't learn otherwise, and their MMR will just get boosted to go against even tougher killers that they clearly aren't prepared for.
If you unhook while i'm basically right in front of the hook and the freshly unhooked survivor can't manage to get away even with their endurance; yes, you were basically killed by your teammate, but it's not my responsibility to just let you go. Is that still tunneling because I didn't decide to chase the healthy survivor that just unhooked you? Theoretically, yes, but it doesn't matter. It's a skill issue that they're doing insanely unsafe unhooks, and it's a skill issue that you can't make enough distance with your haste and endurance to get away from me.
Plenty of times i've hooked a single survivor, got some kind of aura reading or sound notifcation that a survivor was right next to the survivor I hooked; so I go after that survivor since I have a new target, down them, turn around, i'm like 5 feet away from the hook and i've clearly just downed another survivor but yet another survivor is still going for the unhook, so I down them, and it just so happens that the last survivor bought into the peer pressure and they happened to be right next to where I downed the 3rd survivor- now the 4th survivor assumes they're totally free to unhook as well, for no reason, since i'm still actively extremely close to the hook with 2 slugged survivors and 1 that at this point is probably on second hook stage.
Modern DBD players love to cry about slugging, camping, tunneling, etc. without realizing they're just genuinely making #########, awful plays that make no ######### sense, and they're probably used to making these ######### plays and getting away with it because a large portion of the community collectively gaslighted eachother into playing the game worse on purpose, as if it's our responsibility in this PVP game to make sure everybody gets a fair shake even when they don't deserve one.
And for the record, I say that as someone that thought borrowed time basekit was a great and healthy change for the game, actively support anti-slugging mechanic ideas I see posted, and have never stayed near a hooked survivor long enough for them to get the free self-unhook. Sometimes the entire survivor team just collectively decides to kiwi jump off a cliff because a single person is downed or hooked already and then they get all pissy in after match chat like they aren't literally comitting suicide in front of eachother.
Is tunneling real? Yes. Is it a 'valid tactic'? Unfortunately, it kind of is unless BHVR does some kind of anti-tunneling mechanic, which may not be necessary but BHVR will do it if people cry enough.
I think at the end of the day, even if it's something that I don't actively engage in, tunneling is just a part of the game, and it's much, much more the survivor's fault than it is the killers. You can't be mad at the killer killing you because you've been identified as a weak link and have no ######### idea what to do in a chase. But you can be mad at your team for not doing generators in the process and making you die for nothing.
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@kosaba11 said:
So, reading the patch, while the buffs to Knight, Pig, Clown and Pyramid Head are distinctly not needed, I will say this item actually sounds useful.
Now, if you're playing the PTB, please let me know if my inference is wrong, but it sounds like an item that, while it won't outright fix tunneling, should at least make it harder.
Of course, it's very likely to get heavily nerfed, outright removed, or be negated by a future Killer Perk, but for now, it actually sounds like something that could reduce the headache of tunneling.
>while the buffs to Pig
>are distinctly not needed
I'm curious. What, if any killers, do you think need a buff right now?
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I got through like half the movie… it's only for children and people who grew up with FNAF
Even as someone who was younger when FNAF came out and got caught up in the initial craze it didn't really do anything for me
Oddly i'm still glad it exists but the movie itself just wasn't for me
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@DrFrozen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960205#Comment_3960205
Quick reminder: if you find this perk not worth of running, then do not do this… it's not mandatory.
I don't really understand what you're saying here but ultimately a 'more bloodpoints' perk is just a bad idea
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You can theoretically use it to easily find gens but the threat of springtrap getting a free grab makes it really difficult
Can say oh just use it while hes in a chase but if hes already in a chase and your far away enough to jump through a door you could already be on a generator
Low viable use case scenarios for surviving interacting with door cameras really
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Deception. Perks based around tricking or outplaying the killer > perks that give free value or only crutch.
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@DrFrozen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960185#Comment_3960185
These brown bp offerings that do absolutely nothing ? Yeah… I would rather rework them - for instance the capacity of particular thing is increased by 10% and gives to 25% more to this cathegory instead of just 50%.
Uhh.. no? The cakes that give you 100% bloodpoints. Not the event cakes; the regular cakes you can get from any bloodweb, and the bloody party streamers that give the bonus to every player.
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Huntress and Deathslinger makes the Huntslinger, the 'first child born in the Fog.'
Snug also met another dog offscreen and had puppies.
Huntslinger gets 3 demon puppies.
These puppies can be directed to stand and keep watch at a location where they give KIller Instinct in a radius around them. They can be sent towards a gen, totem, etc. and act as watchdogs, barking and yipping at survivors and giving information to Killer. The puppies can be recalled by the Huntslinger after X seconds or scared away by the survivors with a short interaction, in which case they return to following the Huntslinger and are added back to it's roster.
Sort of inspired by his papa, the Huntslinger wields a weapon on a chain- the Meteor Hammer. It can be wound up and spun to strike at a distance, but requires some windup.
While winding up, the Huntslinger can choose to sling forwards, delivering a ranged attack by sending the Hammer down from the sky. Or, they can sling horizontally- the horizontal swing gets stopped on objects, but otherwise swings in an arc and can hit multiple survivors.
Survivors hit by the forward swing become Blind and Deafened for a short period time as they reel from the blow. The horizontal swing just deafens.
Survivors marked by the Demon Puppies additionally become Hindered for a short period of time after being hit by the Meteor Hammer.
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Doesn't seem like a good idea. Would rather have regular Bloodpoint gain be effective enough on it's own, which I think it is. Want more? Bring an offering. Wasting a perk slot to get more feels pretty bad
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959997#Comment_3959997
Let me get this straight. Your serious suggestion, which you have fully thought through the implications of, is "it would be unfair for someone to get the amount of aura reading that I was getting." Is that right?
Let me get this straight. You haven't realized that the game is a skewed 1v4 and that some things are meant to be more impactful for one side than the other?
Is that right? Weird, unnecessarily passive-aggressive response. Get real man
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It's insane to me that Houndmaster isn't killswitched while they figure out her stutter step
Like at any given point while playing this killer you can randomly get locked into 1/3rd of your normal movement speed for the rest of the game which is just an abstract game over
You can basically lose the game at any point and the trigger (while assumed to be something related to cancelling or interrupting a dog command) still isn't fully divined with a way to avoid it
I have genuinely never played a killer with a bug this random, impactful and frustrating
Or at least i've never had a bug this bad creep up on me this often
It makes me not even wanna load up the game because at any point regardless of how the match has been going I can just lose any ability I had to effectively play the game at all
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@Gastongard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959957#Comment_3959957
Yeah there are some scenarios where it would feel as pain in the ass, like if you are facing a swf, someone has it and can make some calls to others, but again, its just aura and tbh how many times you faced OoO? And if you do, how many players of that team had it? One?
Again, you can go as surv and bring the most busted aura build to see the killer everytime, and then you go against an stealth killer and your build will not work 90% of the match, so? Builds are not made to work 100% of your matches, and thats the healthiest for the gameDifferent perks on either side interacting with eachother is fine but there's a difference between calm spirit countering scream builds (much more niche, you can still chase a survivor that doesn't scream) and object giving free wallhacks, which destroys chase entirely and gives free loops
Like yeah obviously in this niche scenario you're going to suffer the most if you have a build that relies on aura reading but maybe one perk shouldn't throw the game into such an off kilter state by actively punishing the killer for having that build
Calm Spirit makes screams easier to deal with, sure, it 'counters' scream builds in that way, and that's fine
Object doesn't just 'counter' aura builds, it actively punishes the killer for bringing any kind of aura reading
Feels like there's a reasonably obvious difference here
That's why I think the perk isn't well designed. The entire game shouldn't be thrown just because of one perk. There is not a single other perk in the survivor lineup that works like this and for good reason
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959978#Comment_3959978
Something I've come to realize is that a bunch of people come to these forums because they want to vent after having had a rough game of DBD, but they don't have a discord server with a dbd ranting section they can go to. personally I'd rather see serious, measured suggestions for game balance, but WCYD
My serious, measured suggestion for game balance is that a 1-1 aura read for survivors shouldn't be in the game
The killer should never get punished for bringing aura perks by a survivor getting free perma wallhacks at the same time, that's not in tune with game balance
Object giving free chases forever because your killer perks read auras is a ridiculous concept and never should've made it to live
Hey guys what if there was a survivor perk that gave you haste every time the killer got haste. Wait no that's ######### stupid. Wow
Even on a base level object working the way it does should be obviously worth criticism
I'm making comments now that people are going to repeat verbatim if object gets even a little more popular than it's niche usage right now
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959955#Comment_3959955
Then why are you complaining about it? It's a terrible perk in 99/100 cases.
Because I think the perk's design is unhealthy? A perk can be out of meta and still not be well designed
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959414#Comment_3959414
I'm willing to concede this if you're willing to acknowledge that bringing it up in the first place meant something. We're having an active discussion; that's not something you mention unless you wanted it to mean something.
Yes, the meaning I intended being that the killer has the inherent speed advantage for the majority of the match. Situationally removing that advantage for 3 seconds every 40 seconds at absolute maximum, assuming completely ideal conditions for a given survivor does not negate that advantage in my opinion.
Assuming a 10 minute match and assuming a survivor is chased into a vault precisely when their cooldown is up every single time their cooldown is up, at max there will be 13 3 second windows of 50% haste for a given survivor. 6.5% of the match all together will be spent zipping around for that survivor, split between 13 instances. This is assuming everything goes as perfectly for the survivor as it could possibly go - something very improbable.
To me, when I hear you say "in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds" that sounds to me like you're noting it as some kind of problem. But if you aren't, and you don't think anything is wrong with that, then that's fine; but I don't think killers that have some sort of teleport or mobility power should be not as quick as killers are supposed to be with their base movement speed.
My point is if there are going to be killers in the game that can close long distances extremely quickly, there needs to be perks that can give survivors a chance against those high mobility killers. I'm not commenting on their speed one way or the other - I'm just saying that IF they're going to be able to speed around the map then a survivor that isn't already at a jungle gym or building is going to need a way to get there without it just being a free down every time a survivor needs to wander over to a gen that isn't in a loopable structure.
Now, if the entire enemy team is doing that, then there's no point in breaking chase since every survivor is going to do the same ######### thing to you, and then every chase you have in that match is arbitrarily extended. It just gets ridiculous; and let's face it, with these pickrates, that is going to happen way more often than you only encountering a single survivor running one of these perks.
If the entire enemy team is running around, then they aren't doing gens. Heck, sprint burst is exploitable as a killer there - they scatter from a gen fast but have to take a long walk back and aren't going to be very fast anymore if you come right back.
Even if you initially disagree with some of my points and don't think these perks are inherently unhealthy for the game it stands to reason that you could at least recognize that they're simply good perks you will basically always get value from.
I agree Lithe is good - it's why I run it and not something else. (That and most other perks are too situational to be worth anything) I don't agree it's overpowered nor do I agree that it's unhealthy for the game. One point I would like to make here is that just because a perk is frequently chosen, doesn't inherently make it overpowered or a problem. Correlation is not causation.
If you actually need Sprint Burst and Lithe to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means- you have no idea how a chase works, or what you're supposed to do in one.Conversely, if you actually need a survivor to not run any exhaustion perks to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means.
To be as direct as possible; I don't give a ######### what removing these perks do to any single statistic.
How about your queue time? Do you care what removing those perks do to that? Few enough people want to play survivor as it is that there's constant blood point bribes in place, you want to make it more frustrating?
But using these perks to offset your skill imbalance doesn't retroactively justify the perks existence.
Love that phrasing. I could counter with - demanding those perks be removed to offset a killer's skill imbalance doesn't make the argument correct or good for game balance or health.
Mentioning that the perks are exhaustion perks does not mean anything to me in this conversation.
Then you are intentionally ignoring or disregarding the limitations that are present on the perks you are complaining about. Having a cooldown mechanic is very much a part of how balanced something is.
>the killer has the inherent speed advantage for the majority of the match.>Situationally removing that advantage for 3 seconds every 40 seconds>does not negate that advantage in my opinion.Sorry but this just feels like bad faith arguing. The killer is ever so slightly faster than the survivors by default to ensure that the survivors can't hold W away from them eternally. But, the survivors can extend chase theoretically indefinitely by abusing loops, pallets, vaults. That is why the killer gets bloodlust, and why vaults get blocked; chases are simply not actually supposed to last forever.
I think you're just intentionally overselling the whole 'killer faster than survivor' bit when it only exists to encourage the game of tag the entire game is built around. You will get hit eventually, every chase is just about how much time you can waste for the killer.
Every second the killer isn't chasing you, your teammates are doing gens. When a perk like Dead Hard increases chase time, that value is given to the survivor by extending the chase, either letting the Survivor get away and heal in ideal conditions, or simply buying their team more time.
The Survivor getting any more time throws the vanilla gameplay out of it's set marching pace. Which is fine; the Killer has perks too and can do the same thing. But you have to be very careful when you design perks that influence this; when something like Sprint Burst or Lithe is giving so much free time, constantly, it feels lazy, both making the game more of a slog by artificially increasing that chase time without any effort on the survivors part, and becomes 4x worse when 4 survivors are doing the same thing.
The entire meta right now revolves around unearned free time with these perks being used so, so often. Even bad survivors who get caught as soon as their haste is up still got their hands held by zero effort perks and gave their team enough time to do gens. The lack of skill and lack of any actual ability to loop the killer is getting crutched by perks that give the survivor too much free time & distance with no real input required from the survivor.
Your random numbers and math don't mean anything. You are trying to over-quantify a part of the game that does not have a predefined time limit because you don't understand chases; not what they mean for the game and how they're intended to function, and not how to do them yourself.
>if there are going to be killers in the game that can close long distances extremely quickly, there needs to be perks that can give survivors a chance against those high mobility killersThe intended counterplay against killers with mobility powers is to just be better than them and chase properly. Dodge something. You aren't outplaying them by bringing a perk that lets you run away from them faster.
It's not a valid way of seeing game balance, and this totally ignores the fact that a majority of the killer roster simply do not have mobility based powers. Even 'lunge' attacks like the Demogorgan still have a cooldown and recovery time. If these perks are so effective against mobility killers, what do they do to the rest of the cast? To the otherwise majority killer roster who don't have mobility?
And what even constitutes as mobility? You don't like killers that are fast, or have some kind of teleport, based on your previous replies. So you just don't like killers with map traversal and need these crutch perks to deal with them because you don't know how to chase.
The only things i'm willing to concede here is that Kaneki and Springtrap are badly implemented for different reasons, but we can't use their questionable design to validate perks like SB and Lithe existing the way they are. These killers are an entirely different discussion and are 2/40.
This entire conversation just more and more sounds like "I don't know what i'm supposed to do in a chase and would rather run away from the killer instead of play the game", when the perks specifically being so uninteractive is a crux of my criticisms in the first place.
Sure, some perks can exist that are probably better against some killers than other ones. That's fine. But pretending these two obnoxious free distance perks get a reason to be 20% of the survivor's pickrates just because some killers are fast is ridiculous. That's quite simply not how the game is meant to be balanced.
>a survivor that isn't already at a jungle gym or building is going to need a way to get there without it just being a free down every time a survivor needs to wander over to a gen that isn't in a loopable structure.Actually, you're supposed to be punished by bad positioning, which pretty much any killer can do. There are supposed to be deadzones in maps. If you run yourself into a corner it's literally your fault.
Also, most gens are literally in the middle of a gym or loopable structure. Even gens in middle buildings typically have vaults right next to them. I don't really get what you mean by 'isn't a loopable structure'. What gens are you looking at that don't immediately have lockers, vaults, pallets near them? What are you talking about?
Even in the rare cases of a 'bad' gen location spawn, which I know can sometimes happen, then it's just a harder gen to pop. Either take the risk or do a different gen. I think a lot of your complaints you use SB/Lithe as a crutch to avoid are just facets of intended gameplay. If your entire thought process is "I never want to even see the killer or be in a single chase because I don't know what i'm doing and can't loop" then that's just not a valid way to excuse SB/lithe being so abusable and it makes me wonder why you play the game in the first place, no offense.>If the entire enemy team is running around, then they aren't doing gensYeah you just aren't thinking on this one me saying "the problem becomes infinitely worse when every survivor has free distance perks" does not at all imply i'm somehow starting a chase with every single survivor on the map at once
The process against a team of competent survivors who properly spread out on gens and bring these perks is that you chase one, realize they have SB or lithe, decide to turn around to pressure a gen or chase another survivor, they also have one of these perks, the next one you find has one of these perks, the next one you find has one of these perks
Yes, you just have to deal with it at that point, but you can only chase one survivor at a time, and knowing that every single chase you get into is going to have an arbitrary free number of additional seconds tacked on while you're catching up to a survivor just to start the actual chase itself will never not feel ridiculous
The problem only gets extrapolated when the entire survivor team can waste your time for zero effort for the entire match
You cannot pretend that i'm talking about this situation like every single survivor is running away from me at once because that is an intentional misrepresentation of both what a normal game of DBD looks like and isn't the situation that i'm already describing in my posts
Do not make up a different situation where you assume the survivors are playing as bad as they possibly can be playing just to make it easier to disagree with me
>One point I would like to make here is that just because a perk is frequently chosen, doesn't inherently make it overpowered or a problemYou don't need to note this, I already said it in my post when I was talking about windows, and metas are still defined by the most powerful perks 99% of the time, unnecessary comment
>
if you actually need a survivor to not run any exhaustion perks to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means.I never said that in any of my posts and repeatedly gave examples of exhaustion perks that I thought were fair and balanced specifically to compare them to how I thought sb/lithe were unhealthy, if you're going to engage in this conversation from such a bad faith angle then don't respond at all man
>How about your queue time? Do you care what removing those perks do to that? Few enough people want to play survivor as it is that there's constant blood point bribes in place, you want to make it more frustrating?Right because the too long killer queue time hostage situation gambit is a valid take and has a lot to do with what i'm saying here dude come on
>demanding those perks be removed to offset a killer's skill imbalance doesn't make the argument correct or good for game balance or health.this also doesn't make sense given that there's zero skill involved in using the perks i'm complaining about, you aren't outplaying someone by getting a huge amount of free distance on them before the chase even begins, the lack of effort is a part of the problem
>Then you are intentionally ignoring or disregarding the limitations that are present on the perks you are complaining about. Having a cooldown mechanic is very much a part of how balanced something is.Literally all I said is that a perk having a cooldown doesn't justify it being broken which is going to be true now and forever
You have raised no valid points or counter arguments
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I see 4x Lithe+ Finesse a lot. like, a lot. it's not OP, but playing against it is a serious chore. then again, I don't play Nurse so self inflicted problem
I personally think it's 'OP' because it gives way too much value for way little effort
But even if you don't think it's overpowered it's fair to say they're still badly designed
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@Gastongard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959929#Comment_3959929
Agree, Also how many players runs OoO? I dont remember the last time i saw someone running it. Its #87 on the perk usage list on nightlight with 0.90% pick rate and 32% escape rate. So even if these are not accurate data acording to devs, I dont think anyone see this perk as a problem as the old OoO was…
Every perk as some kind of counter in the game, by its own rules or by using a perk on the other side. You cannot expect go to a match where your build works 100% of the matches, otherwise it would be what we all know as OP.I don't even necessarily think the perk is OP it just feels very dumb that the killer can ever be in a position where the survivor has free perma wallhacks because the killer also brings aura reading
There shouldn't be a survivor perk that makes the game free because the killer had aura reading
It's not well designed
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@Pulsar said:
Wait until bro finds out about the original Object of Obsession
I was here in 2021 this post means nothing
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959936#Comment_3959936
Too bad, dont bring aura reading perks
Bad faith zero thought reply
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@SkeletalElite said:
Someone got baited into ego chasing an object user while running weave. "meme build" yeah sure buddy
Yeah let's pretend Hoarder, Franklins, Weave and Nowhere is a real good meta build that everyone's running LOL
Nowhere is the only perk I have that's regularly used by killers and even then it's just a convenience perk, I could throw a gen slowdown instead but I choose not to because i'm specifically running a silly build
I didn't get baited into chasing them, I realized they moved every single time I did despite them having no line of sight, and assumed they had wallhacks, which they did, but it was just because of object and not exploiting
I think it's a rare interaction to have because i'm running a weird build but the perk in general always giving 1-1 auras feels bad
That alone is powerful enough I don't even know why it also gives an action sped buff
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@adam1233467 said:
This is only for obsession and its aura kills you more than help you, complaining about current object is a ragebait.
Incorrect
Regardless of whether or not you are the obsession, equipping this perk will always have 1-1 aura reading
Any time you can see survivor aura, the survivor can see killer aura
No mindgames, literally free looping
The 'reveals aura to killer' part only happens if your the obsession, which the perk practically guarantees unless someone else also has a perk that increases their obsession chance
Even if im using a funny build like franklins and weave attunement I can no longer play around any gym that has an item dropped in it because the survivor will be able to loop me for free
Aura reading is infinitely more beneficial for survivor than it is killer
I get that they probably just wanted to tack something on to the perk so it's not just the occasional aura reveal but it feels really dumb to play against, again genuinely thought the survivor had wallhacks (and it turns out they did, it was just because of object)
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@jmwjmw27 said:
I’m curious to hear your opinion on Smash Hit.
I honestly don't usually mind it because getting a pallet stun is still an actual mindgame you have to play with killer and is nothing like the absolute barebones requirement of just vaulting
Survivor haste is tricky to balance but I can't think of anything other than SB/lithe that really feel like bullshit, no other survivor haste perk gives so much free value
Even being able to 99 sprint burst alone makes the perk insane
To me Smash Hit is both just a little more situational enough for me to be okay with it (like balanced landing) and also requires at least some level of skill/input from survivor (landing a pallet stun)
Eating a pallet and breaking it while the survivor gets away already feels kind of normal if they manage to break chase off a good pallet stun regardless if they have smash hit or not that's fine, pallets are a limited resource they're supposed to be used like that
In comparison Lithe doesn't permanently block that on vault spot, know what I mean?
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literally thought they had wallhacks but it turns out they were getting fed free info from ######### Weave Attunement in my meme build what is this #########
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More perks that let you actually do different things. Dramaturgy lets you do a weird little run. Can we get a perk that lets you perform a spin kick? Anything's possible; but 'ability' perks (like the poster before me said) are pretty neat.
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@Rookie1978 said:
You went through the trouble of recording the video, uploading it, and making this post before you tried to look it up yourself to figure out what a lunge is? I'm confused. Google is right there, respectfully
You have a bunch of other videos on your youtube channel where you think people are cheating… almost every single video is you accusing the killer or survivors your playing against of cheating. You think literally anyone who beats you in this game is cheating but don't know what a lunge is?
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You went through the trouble of recording the video, uploading it, and making this post before you tried to look it up yourself to figure out what a lunge is? I'm confused. Google is right there, respectfully
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959350#Comment_3959350
Why, I’d love to see where I said there’s SOMETHING WRONG with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at ‘base speeds’. What I said was that they ARE faster. That is all, end of statement. Perhaps you should re-read.
There are not vaultable surfaces falling from the sky on every map. A survivor is not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase. If a survivor with lithe does fast vault a vaultable surface while in chase with you they are not so far away that you can now NOT catch them. I play killer too when queue times aren’t miserable and can say that I may CHOOSE to break chase when I feel applying pressure elsewhere would be a better choice time-wise, I don’t HAVE TO.
If 3 seconds of haste means you are unable to catch a survivor, how did you get to them across the map in the first place? That’s way farther than those 3 seconds got that lithe using survivor, and now their perk is unusable for 40 seconds.
You make an assumption on why they’re the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the game when you.
So long as you’re looking at statistics, tell me - since killers have pretty good kill stats in the most recently reported numbers, how exactly do you think wrecking survivors primary chase perks is going to affect that?
Thank you for your response. I'm going to try and break down my own response into sections since it seems like we're both bringing up a few different talking points and it'll help keep things understandable and concise.
>I’d love to see where I said there’s SOMETHING WRONG with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at ‘base speeds’. What I said was that they ARE faster. That is all, end of statement.I'm willing to concede this if you're willing to acknowledge that bringing it up in the first place meant something. We're having an active discussion; that's not something you mention unless you wanted it to mean something. We aren't saying things just to say them. This is an ongoing debate. You specifically say,
"There are killers that can zoom around maps with dashes, tentacle leaps, or literal teleports in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds. Lithe never hurt anybody."
To me, when I hear you say "in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds" that sounds to me like you're noting it as some kind of problem. But if you aren't, and you don't think anything is wrong with that, then that's fine; but I don't think killers that have some sort of teleport or mobility power should be not as quick as killers are supposed to be with their base movement speed.
Unless you're the Nurse, if anything Nurse should move even slower.
>There are not vaultable surfaces falling from the sky on every map. A survivor is not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase.Yes, vaults from a height are more powerful than ones on the ground, but grounded vaults are still very powerful. Every map has a killer shack, for instance; but on top of that, I would wager most of the vaults across every map in the game are survivor sided regardless, because that's the point of vaults. Unless it's one of those really weird small ones, like on the edges of Dead Dog Saloon that just super suck. But still.
I'm not having any of this conversation with the idea of height vaults in mind, that to me is just a different category. Everything that i'm talking about to me in my mind is within the context of a 'normal' grounded vault, one that a killer would have to either take a walk around, or take the slow vault to get past it.
Additionally, I don't really know what you mean by "not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase." As a survivor, you typically aren't trying to take a vault knowing the killer is going to get a hit; you should vault when you know the killer is too far away to swing at you mid-vault, and you take that vault so you can start looping the killer. Some gyms you can play mindgames, some gyms are better than others and are next to impossible for the killer unless you're playing a killer that specifically has anti-loop built into their kit.
So generally i'm just not really sure what your saying. The normal chase flowchat for survivors is make distance, find a gym to play around, loop the killer as much as possible by abusing pallets and vaults, and move to the next gym if you've exhausted your resources (like you've thrown the pallet already or you've used the same vault so many times it's blocked.)
The chase typically goes until the killer gets you, gives up, or loses track of you. I don't like Lithe because it turns the normal chase structure into the survivor just getting away for free and typically ending the chase then and there. It rewards a survivor for doing something that's already advantageous to them in a chase, and typically stops the interaction completely instead of following the 'normal' chase flowchart that dictates a majority of the interactivity the sides have with eachother.
>If a survivor with lithe does fast vault a vaultable surface while in chase with you they are not so far away that you can now NOT catch them.My response to this is twofold.
Firstly, yes, there are some very strong or stragetic vault points that become basically unwinnable by abusing Lithe's speedboost; like the vault from height spots we already talked about. A killer can theoretically hit one of these and still chase the survior; i've caught up with plenty of survivors from that one vault drop in The Game, for instance. Not impossible. But with Lithe, spots like that become insanely valuable for survivors.
Secondly, yes, even if you can theoretically keep chasing the survivor, just like Sprint Burst, the insane free amount of distance they get on you typically just isn't worth it to chase because it's such a massive timesink. At some point it becomes more strategically viable to drop chase, either to go after another survivor that isn't as good in chase or doesn't have those perks, or to go pressure gens elsewhere and try to stagnate the game.
I typically play this way often, ignoring the survivors that I know have really tough perks or are really good in chase/want to be chased or are constantly trying to make me chase them. It makes much more sense for me to go after their teammates. If I know you have Sprint Burst and your going to burst away from me at 99 mph then i'm not really keen on investing all that time it takes just to catch up with you and actually start the ######### chase properly. That's what I mean by free arbitrary distance.
Lithe is the same way. If you speed off after doing a vault, it's doubling down on something that's already bad for me, and makes it less worth it to keep the chase going because we're adding a lot of time on an already rapidly draining clock for next to no effort by the survivor.
So, ultimately, there are some situations where Lithe can genuinely just end a chase verbatim; and a lot of times, the time it takes to catch up to these survivors really just isn't worth it, and it feels worse that it's 'unearned' time the survivors get. But if the entire team are running these perks (i'm getting 2-3 sprint bursts/lithes a game) then the killer's time is constantly getting stretched out with less and less actual chase structure or interactivity with the survivors at all, and then it just gets so insanely obnoxious to play against.
See, you even seem to agree with me with your next statement here;
>I may CHOOSE to break chase when I feel applying pressure elsewhere would be a better choice time-wise, I don’t HAVE TO.That's kind of the crux of the conversation. You either break chase or dedicate even more time to chasing someone who got a large amount of free distance on you for very little effort.
Now, if the entire enemy team is doing that, then there's no point in breaking chase since every survivor is going to do the same ######### thing to you, and then every chase you have in that match is arbitrarily extended. It just gets ridiculous; and let's face it, with these pickrates, that is going to happen way more often than you only encountering a single survivor running one of these perks.
Let's face it- they have high pickrates for a reason. If they were reasonably balanced, they wouldn't be present in every single ######### game. (I use swears for emphasis; not to imply hostility.)
>You make an assumption on why they’re the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the gameLet's pump the brakes here a little bit. Metas are typically defined by perks that are overtly effective. Balance changes happen around the meta because the meta highlights things that are too powerful if not straight up broken. The only thing that doesn't fit here is Windows because Windows is the default suggestion noob perk and a lot of people are running it that really don't need to be.
It's worth saying that in some way, every other most picked perk (on BOTH sides) are probably just really good perks. I'm not 'making an assumption' by saying these perks are picked extremely often because they're very good, i'm just running off the basic definition and understanding of what a meta in a videogame is.
Like, every single meta in DBD's history has been centered around perks or perk combos that are just very good. That's why people use them. That's why they become meta.
Even if you initially disagree with some of my points and don't think these perks are inherently unhealthy for the game it stands to reason that you could at least recognize that they're simply good perks you will basically always get value from.
>since killers have pretty good kill stats in the most recently reported numbers, how exactly do you think wrecking survivors primary chase perks is going to affect that?I don't think this is really doing what you want this to do for your argument. Killers are pretty much always going to have good or acceptable kill rates because the game is insanely non-noob-friendly with barely functioning MMR and despite all these twitch streamers and tiktok-clip-farming bully squads a large majority of the survivor player population just suck at the game.
Like, that's not a bad thing to say, it's okay to recognize that, and i'm fairly certain that's already an understood metric whe n it comes to trying to analyze DBD numbers. I think you're just failing to recognize that you need to see the context behind statistics to make the statistics mean anything.
Here's one for you- The Nurse has the 5th lowest killrate in the game. Is she still the best killer? In this instance; it's the killer players that suck. In terms of killer kill-rates, it's a majority of the survivors that suck.
If you actually need Sprint Burst and Lithe to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means- you have no idea how a chase works, or what you're supposed to do in one.
If you are literally just running away, you have not yet reached a point of familiarity with playing Survivor where you can effectively loop the killer in a chase. Which is fine- I can't loop for ######### either, i'm awful at Survivor. But using these perks to offset your skill imbalance doesn't retroactively justify the perks existence. To be as direct as possible; I don't give a ######### what removing these perks do to any single statistic. Survivors should learn how to function in a chase instead of relying on blatantly unhealthy non-interactivity focused perks to get ahead.
Also, just as a final addendum,
>and now their perk is unusable for 40 seconds.Does not matter. The exhaustion perk working on an exhaustion cooldown does not matter when you are getting the value of that perk up-front. You get the value and then the perk goes on cooldown. I'm not writing all this out like i'm thinking survivors are getting back to back lithe's off in a single chase. In fact, many perks on both sides have cooldowns. Mentioning that the perks are exhaustion perks does not mean anything to me in this conversation.
TL:DR no you don't get a TLDR actually read my post if you want to engage in the conversation.
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I honestly feel like people discount the good decisions BHVR has made way too much. They stumble on some things but they've made a lot of decisions I thought were overwhelmingly positive; i've already had a few of my dreams checked off. I still remember when they added auto-buy bloodwebs, I thought to myself, holy #########, they really did it! Then I come back from a break, and suddenly I can spend all my bloodpoints at once and literally just skip massive amounts of levels altogether.
That alone is great. Quality of life. I like it.
I also remember when all the original characters and skins got turned into shard purchasable, with only the licensed stuff being paid only. I think that's a super discounted BHVR move that earned them a lot of good will, at least to people who remember it happening.
Some finnicky systems they're still working out doesn't warrant posts that do nothing but spread negativity. Flaws get patched, fixed, whatever. Negativity bias is just insane.
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I like the idea of invocations more than I like them in practice. Make them too effective, god forbid meta, and killers are going to complain about having to regularly check basement to make sure nobody is in there praying to the holy man upstairs that they get to pop 5 gens at once.
Make them overall not very impactful and they're literally just wasted perks.
Right now I barely notice them; by the time spiders goes off i've already been pressuring gens and getting hooks while 1 survivor is suspiciously absent not doing anything for an extended period of time. Then by the time they're back up from the ######### basement i'm already at such an advantage that the time they shaved off gens doesn't really matter.
I think they're a fun idea but they're just really tough to effectively balance around and unless BHVR gets really creative they're going to remain more of a failed concept than anything.
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I've really been enjoying Monitor and Abuse recently on Unknown and Houndmaster. Lot of people discount how effective simply having a very small terror radius; by the time any levels of the TR kicks in you're already practically on top of them anyways.
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@Rookie1978 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959389#Comment_3959389
I personally have no problem with Head On and Balanced Landing.
For Head On, it's a fairly niche and conditional perk; and more importantly, it's something you can actually play around. When a survivor uses Lithe or Sprint Burst, I just have to deal with the crazy free distance they get no matter what.
But if I know a survivor has Head On, I can try and bait it out, or swing myself into the locker and open it before they can react fast enough to actually fast exit and trigger the perk. It's at least something it feels like you can actually play around. I typically respect Head On stuns.
And Balanced Landing isn't a crutch perk to me; Finesse is a crutch perk because it lets you take bad timing vaults you shouldn't have gotten away with. Balanced Landing is something you have to actually plan to use as Survivor, and it turns an unfavorable situation (falling down a height with the killer who typically gets a free hit with lunge) into a favorable one (you might actually get away.)
Think about it from the survivor POV- they have to actually think. They have to sit there and think about how they're going to make plays with these perks, because actually planning around their perks is the only way they can get value out of them.
Meanwhile, Sprint Burst and Lithe are literally free; Sprint Burst 99s are obnoxious and you will always get that free distance no matter what. You are not outplaying the killer by literally just running away from them at lightspeeds.
And you can make an argument that you have to 'plan' a vault to get value out of Lithe, but the greater issue is that the Survivor is getting rewarded for free extra distance on something that should already be very good for them; it's doubling down on an already advantageous situation and is basically just a chase ender.
Addendum; would you rather play against 4 survivors that bring Sprint Burst/Lithe and have to deal with every single chase being arbitrarily wayyy longer for zero planning or conscious thought and effort?
Or would you rather play against a team of survivors using Dead Hard, where every chase is actually a mindgame on top of a mindgame, where the existence of Dead Hard forces the survivor and killer to interact with eachother?
Apply this to any other perk in the Survivor library. Lithe and Sprint Burst are, in my opinion, the absolute worst perks to play against right now by far.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959378#Comment_3959378
the only thing i dislike about head on is the fact its uncounterable and has the hitbox of a truck
power struggle is one of the only perks where i get hit by it and be like, THE FUNNY PERK, so i literally don't even get annoyed im just you know, go for it lol
dead hard on the other hand….if the survivor uses it perfectly, i will compliment them, those who use it near pallets tho…yea that is just boring, and just gives me ptsd from the old dead hard…
but yea perks that just give u random speed boost to cross half of the map are so boring to play against, especially with sprint burst players, like just i know u are holding it, otherwise u wouldn't be letting me get that close while u are walking, at least try to make it less obvious….
and don't even get me started on balanced landind heads, actual crutch perk not even joking, everyone i played against so far who uses this perk goes instantly down if there is no high area
i always love how people go like, oh camping and slugging and tunneling stops your learning, but using a crutch perk is fine?
i mean at least with those, they ain't a perk they are things u need to do and depending on the killer sometimes they don't work, not just slap a perk and call it SKILLS.
I personally have no problem with Head On and Balanced Landing.
For Head On, it's a fairly niche and conditional perk; and more importantly, it's something you can actually play around. When a survivor uses Lithe or Sprint Burst, I just have to deal with the crazy free distance they get no matter what.
But if I know a survivor has Head On, I can try and bait it out, or swing myself into the locker and open it before they can react fast enough to actually fast exit and trigger the perk. It's at least something it feels like you can actually play around. I typically respect Head On stuns.
And Balanced Landing isn't a crutch perk to me; Finesse is a crutch perk because it lets you take bad timing vaults you shouldn't have gotten away with. Balanced Landing is something you have to actually plan to use as Survivor, and it turns an unfavorable situation (falling down a height with the killer who typically gets a free hit with lunge) into a favorable one (you might actually get away.)
Think about it from the survivor POV- they have to actually think. They have to sit there and think about how they're going to make plays with these perks, because actually planning around their perks is the only way they can get value out of them.
Meanwhile, Sprint Burst and Lithe are literally free; Sprint Burst 99s are obnoxious and you will always get that free distance no matter what. You are not outplaying the killer by literally just running away from them at lightspeeds.
And you can make an argument that you have to 'plan' a vault to get value out of Lithe, but the greater issue is that the Survivor is getting rewarded for free extra distance on something that should already be very good for them; it's doubling down on an already advantageous situation and is basically just a chase ender.
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Don't know how related it is but Houndmaster has an insane game-ruining bug that makes her stutter-step at like 1/3rd her normal movement speed for the entire match. It seems to happen totally randomly (possibly triggered by cancelling or interrupting a command) and go away just as randomly.
I've also noticed a lot of stuttering while playing killer in general. I'll down someone and then i'm suddenly like 2 foot away from them. It's especially bad at the beginning of a trial; i'll stutter a lot when moving, and then typically stutter again the first 1 or 2 times I use my basic attack; it seems to happen more often when I swing at a nearby survivor, which is so annoying because it looks like i'm about to hit them- game stutter- i'm standing still and they're far away from me.
It's like i'm getting attacked by King Crimson for the first minute or so of every trial and it gets really grating having to kind of just sit there, exist, and wait for the game to sort itself out.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959336#Comment_3959336
At this point, I think it's much more that new Killers are emphasizing the core issues with the game and balancing. Hence why you hear petty reasons being listed as the primary motivators to go next. Players are beyond fatigued. It's one thing to expect that you won't survive (which isn't good but I digress). It's another to expect that you won't get to play or have fun, which the balancing across the entire game promotes.
I was personally dissapointed with Springtrap; amazing model and animations, fun voicelines, but it doesn't feel like Springtrap at all. They were so close with the doors, cameras, security room… and then he throws a fireaxe too, with some random effects on it.
Springtrap not being a stealth killer is what ######### me up, personally. Stealthy killer with lots of counterplay like Alien would've been the perfect fit. But the only 'jumpscare' you get to do as Springtrap is an extremely slow axe grab yell in their face animation.
He's more corny than he is scary, which is a shame. Again; amazing model, genuinely the best 'official' model of Springtrap we've ever gotten. His power? A bit lazy, sort of contrived, a mess.
A more interactive stealth-based Springtrap would've been so, so perfect.
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@PigWithTvs said:
i don't mind lithe, tho sprint burst and finess has become one of the perks that make me go like, yea cool…what a fun interaction
especially with finess still being bugged giving way more value to the point that vaults (especially with pallets) are broken now, u sometimes wiff even if it was suppose to hit
sprint burst is really painful on indoor maps, otherwise its somewhat fine, no i don't wanna run the same perk over and over to counter it, killers thrive on creating new builds and build crafting not running the same thing over and over and being sore winners like their perks didn't carry them the whole game
this is why i love going against survivors who don't run the "meta" perks, they are confident, good, hell even i start enjoying the chase and they usually get hatch from me or i just let them out because THEY EARNED IT
Talking about how they 'earned it' I would like to say I am literally never mad if a survivor gets value out of Dead Hard.
If I get hit with a Head On i'm like oh wow, they got me, they got value out of that, they tricked me, well played.
On the extremely rare occasion someone stuns me with Power Struggle I just sit there amazed.
I know Head On and Power Struggle aren't super related to the conversation, but still; perks that encourage interactivity are fun, and better for the game. If a survivor dunks on me with Dead Hard i'm like damn, they got me! When a survivor suddenly just gets to win the chase and disappear from my field of view because they hit a regular ass vault, something that's already supposed to be good for them, it makes me want to abandon the match.
At the end of the day DBD is a game. It's supposed to have gameplay. Sprint Burst and Lithe isn't gameplay and Finesse only exists to let bad survivors run loops they shouldn't be, it's a bandaid crutch perk that ######### up the chase because it gives the survivor a big window window to excuse awful vault timing.
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@ImWinston said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959358#Comment_3959358
- You didn't read my post either, i literally gave you the countermove for the perks that bother you (except finesse)
You just did the same thing twice, you still didn't read my post. Why are you talking about a 'countermove' when in the post you're replying to I explicitly tell you that I don't think a perk is healthy just because another perk can counter it?
Why do I have to write the same post twice to make you understand what i'm saying?
Let me break it down for you to make it easier to digest.
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Thesis:
The perk Mindbreaker existing does not retroactively justify other perks being unhealthy just because you could possibly make those perks easier to deal with if you happen to bring Mindbreaker.
Additionally, Mindbreaker, which applies Exhaustion while someone is working on a generator, doesn't have anything to do with how I see Sprint Burst being commonly used; which is away from generators.
You can 99% sprint burst and use it mid-chase. You can slowly walk towards killer, baiting them into a chase, just to run to the other side of the map with your sudden Sprint Burst.
If you hear the terror radius, you can stop doing the generator, wait for the exhaustion to tick down, and have Sprint Burst ready by the time the killer arrives.
And on top of all that, Mindbreaker has next to no interaction with Lithe at all, so I don't know why you're pretending the 'exhuastion on generators' perk is somehow a 'countermove' to getting free distance after vaulting.
And again, just to say it for the 3rd time so it's clear,
One perk potentially lessening the impact of an otherwise unhealthy perk, does not justify the unhealthy perk continuing to be overpowered.
That is not how good game design works and should not be a way to justify unhealthy gameplay mechanics.
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@ratcoffee said:
the mischevious perk known as Mindbreaker:
Does not have anything to do with my post. Sprint Burst can be 99'd and used away from gens, and in my game, that's how it goes down like 70% of the time. It also has nothing to do with Lithe.
Respectfully, Mindbreaker existing doesn't really impact my post at all, and on top of that; a perk in the game that's otherwise unhealthy or too powerful can't be considered okay just because another perk could possibly counter it. I don't think that's good game design mantra.
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@ImWinston said:
- Exhaustion perks have always been considered among the strongest in the game, they are perks that allow you to extend your chase, a fundamental part of the Survivor gameplay. They are the equivalent of "Bamboozle", "alien instinct", "machine learning", etc etc etc ... these perks allow the killer to shorten his chase. DBD is like playing chess, move and countermove, this is the most fun part of the game (for me). If the exhaustion perks bother you a lot (absolutely legitimate), use "mindbreaker" , "languid touch" or "blood echo"….from the killer's point of view they don't seem to do anything, in reality they completely "kill" all the exhaustion perks🤣
But my issue isn't with exhaustion perks as a whole and I already list some exhaustion perks I think are well designed for the sake of comparison. Something being an exhaustion perk doesn't give it a free pass to be broken, or unhealthy. I don't think you read my post.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959322#Comment_3959322
Sprint burst usage has shot up massively due to springtrap it feels like. Perks like these is why i only really play dash/teleport killers now.
I don't know, I was seeing it plenty before Springtrap was added to the game. There's no killer that it isn't useful against; (which is fine), but it's so oddly skewed to either make you better against killers that can pop up on you at a gen (like Springtrap) or make you practically untouchable to killers that can't, which is a majority of the cast. That's part of why it feels like an unhealthy perk.
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@MDRSan said:
Not every survivor perk should require a ridiculous amount of set up for one niche use. Survivors already have perks that require some combination of chest opening, totem cleansing, and it being a day with an even number of vowels in order to get any value out of them. These are likely picked because they’re useful and don’t require a stupid amount of conditionally available setup, not because they’re OP.
I never run sprint burst - it’s too uncontrollable for my tastes. You either have to walk everywhere until you need it or just let it fire off whenever it’s up and potentially get less value from it, or have it missing when you actually could use it.
I almost always run lithe, and if you want it you can pry it from my cold, dead hands. It might help a survivor chain loops, escape dead zones, or just put a little distance but they aren’t uncatchable.
If someone’s running lithe and finesse then they’ve burnt 2 perk slots on 1 effect so yeah, it should be a good one. I don’t consistently run finesse but do occasionally mainly because I like the hop animation and feeling a smidge more zippy (usually I prefer kindred in that slot I’m only ever on solo queue). Again, this has not made me uncatchable by any means.
There are killers that can zoom around maps with dashes, tentacle leaps, or literal teleports in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds. Lithe never hurt anybody.
Your entire post is rendered moot by your opinion that there's somehow something wrong with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at 'base speeds'. You are by design not 'supposed' to indefinitely loop a killer with unplayable, uncounterable gameplay; which is why the killer gets Bloodlust, and why vaults get blocked after 3 jumps.
Finesse is the lesser devil out of the 3 but my criticisms stand; and yes, with such a large amount of the survivor playerbase abusing lithe (2nd most picked perk in the game) i'm sure BHVR is inevitably going to pry it out of your hands eventually.
I don't think that Lithe should have some kind of minute requirement or further behavior tacked onto it, I simply don't think there should be a survivor perk that turns an already favorable situation into one that's just a complete stopsign for the killer.
No lithe, survivor vaults, makes distance, killer has to go around or take slower vault, survivor gets that chance to either keep running the loop, or make it to the next spot.
With lithe, survivor vaults, gets distance, gets more free distance, killer can't catch up.
What's wrong with lithe isn't just that it requires no thinking or conditions, it's also that it's attached to a situation that should already be very favorable for a competent survivor, and ruins interactivity because at that point the chase should more or less just be over.
The time sink that goes into chasing someone running sprint burst or lithe typically just isn't worth it, especially on the more obnoxious vault locations that are already insanely good for the survivor. Now, when these picks are picked so often that you're seeing multiple of them in a single game, every single chase between the survivor and killer gets an arbitrary amount of time added on because of the crazy free distance these perks give you.
It's just lazy, both in perk design, and use by survivor.
And I noted it in my initial post but perhaps it was too long to parse that specific element of conversation, but i'm fine with perks that just make you better at stuff. I don't care about Deja Vu letting you slam gens and rush down a killer having the exit gates open before they've even used their power.
But when it comes to anything survivor sided that impacts a chase, I think you have to be very careful when balancing perks that impact it- and at very least, focus on perks that are either conditional and lessen an otherwise unsafe move (like Balanced Landing making the fall favorable for the survivor), or require some level of tactics or skill input to use effectively (like Dead Hard.) Those are my 2 examples for perks that impact the survivor side of chase that I think are more or less fine, but there are more; if any other perks were so free and useful as Sprint Burst and Lithe, then they respectively wouldn't be the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the game.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
yeah, you make a good case why anti go next system should have happened, sold.
Skull merchant was always a skill issue killer except her 3 gen strat that wouldve been nuked w/o need for DCing. Any person who understood her mechanics was perfectly capable of beating her. She wasn't the most fun thing to face, but she was never op. People kept giving up vs her for a year straight after the 3 gen was effectively gone. Just for the sake of the meme at this point.
Ghoul is a killer weaker than blight because you can loop him and people would rather give up than actually improve at looping. It's not the most fun killer to face because of free hit and his catch up power, but it's far from the worst. Maybe he is still OP, maybe he is not, we wouldn't know until people get forced to play vs him enough to improve.
People DC anytime they get resistance and have to adjust their playstyle / learn to face new thing. Or because they dont feel like playing. Or because they think it's "funny". Or because the game didnt go well.
They lost their privilege to express their voice because they abused it.
Devs now know better that people need to be forced to play the game they signed up for and if there's a genuine problem, they would have to suck it up and cry about it on forums until stats proving them being wrong build up. This is the only way to get proper feedback from this entitled and crybaby audience.
Congratulations!
my only dog in this race is noting that skull merchant was absolutely a flop in every direction including game design and nobody cares if the ghoul is op or not they hate that his power feels like BS to play against, it's a gamefeel discussion more than anything else
i dont play survivor that often but i personally love disconnecting in protest instead of being forced to play against skurchant or nurse because they're awful
even now (i mostly play killer) so many survs either give up and let me kill them as soon as they mess up a loop, or just dc as soon as i down them even though there's still plenty of game left
im not saying that the new system is bad or anything but people are just going to give up if they want to and if a notable number of people would rather consistently DC against a certain killer maybe there's just something wrong with how that killer was designed