Killer should be harder. Period.
I'm baffled at how BHVR and people in the community think the current stats are okay. Here's my 2 cents on why 6.1.0 was not very good and this is unhealthy. This thread is a bunch of talking points on why the currents stats do,indeed show and point towards this game being killer-sided at the moment & why it shouldn't be.
Frustration & Stress In Killer Gameplay:
Killer should be harder than survivor and more stressful. That's okay and you should not make the game killer sided to stop that from happening - that's the nature of an assymetrical game. If you dont want to be stressed - play the role that has less input on the match from you as an individual. The current killrate is way too high. This game's issues were certain Killers,Perks and Maps. Not baseline buffs and nerfs.
If Trapper can't win on Cowshed vs a 4-man SWF - nerf Cowshed and buff trapper. Don't buff all Killers, ######### over the weakest and most popular role in the game - solo queue - at the same time.
MAH POWER ROLE! MAH HORROR GAME:
This has not been a horror game for a while now. It's an assymetrical 1v4 game with some horror elements. The horror aspect of this game is gone for 99% of players when they play enough of this game and start thinking about the gameplay part of the game and focus even a bit on the chase. FOR GOD'S SAKE YOU HAVE AN EDGY COMIC BOOK VILLAIN WITH A NAME SOUNDING LIKE A CATFOOD BRAND DROPPING CHEESY ONE-LINERS AS DAVID DABS ON HIM.
About you,dear killer players,really wanting to be the power role. There should not be a power role in a multiplayer game,period. This is supposed to be an asym multiplayer experience where 4 survivors working together are about equal to the Killer and whoever is playing better comes out on top. Power role experience of murdering a bunch of helpless survivors belong in singleplayer games.
BUT THE STATS ARE SKEWED - SWF ARE STILL WRECKING KILLERS:
I'll be real with you. Not really,they don't. The times where I get wrecked as Killer this patch is when I make tons of mistakes,get a really terrible map or survivors bring the most busted #########. Usually it's a result of all of the above and mostly my fault.
You're not getting destroyed because you're facing comp 4-man squads. Not even because you're facing really good 4-mans all the time. You're just making mistakes and the other side is capitalizing on them with their strong loadouts. The negative experiences Killers are facing are very often their own fault and then they're not,they're addressed by nerfing maps,certain items/addons & perks.
Is it worth compromising the majority of the playerbase's experience just because some Killers want to feel a power fantasy and not hone their craft? I don't think so.
There's still a power disbalance,though:
Correct. There is. Here's how we address the current issues:
- Buff Solo Queue players by giving them baseline Kindred and baseline Kindred for when people are slugged for longer than 16 seconds.
- Significant nerfs to medkits. They're way too strong. Brown medkits should be at 0,5x speed and Green Medkits should be at 1,25x speed at most.
- Overperforming maps should be looked at - Cowshed/Springwood/Garden of Joy - all of these maps need nerfs,they're substantially skewing the results of all games in DBD.
- Nurse needs to be significantly nerfed - she brings an infinite myriad of issues,not only ignoring any survivor skill and bringing the game down to "Is The Nurse going to ######### up or not" and making perk design problematic with dozens of perks needing to be nerfed due to her.
- Buff & Rework the most underperforming Killers,especially those without much of a chase power,or those countered by information sharing between survivors. E.G Hag,Sadako,Myers,Trapper.
- Revert the baseline cooldown & speed burst changes. - those are really,really bad and should be reverted.
- All maps should be smaller. There should be no map as large as Shelter Woods & Red Forest.
- DS should be brought to 4 seconds,with it disabling Killer power usage for 6 seconds and active on both hooks.
- A nerfed version of Corrupt Intervention blocking two gens for 30 seconds or until a survivor is downed should be introduced basekit.
CLOSING REMARKS:
The 6.1.0 patch was a respectable attempt at balancing the game. It really was. However in responding to valid pain points by Killer players - Maps,Spawns,Perks & Items. Circle Of Healing,Dead Hard,Medkits,BNPS and Cowshed 1v1s were and still are undeniably frustrating. However instead of addressing pain points directly,BHVR has addressed them by machine gunning the whole game into being Killer-Sided,with occasional SWF squads screwing over Killer players unprepared for strong loadouts due to either not running them themselves or playing Trapper.
Wanting this game to not be a 50% split between kills and esapes is unhealthy. This isn't a story mode or a singleplayer game. It's a multiplayer game - you should try to give everyone an equal chance. The top 0.01% of MMR players being able to loop a 1600 MMR Bubba is okay. It shouldn't be balanced for.
The Killer experience will always be harder and more stressfull. You're the only player on your team versus 4 survivors. That's the nature of an asym. Your hand cant be held here,because if it is - you'll ruin the other side's experience 90% of the time.
Comments
Oh i agree that the 6.1.0 patch was suboptimal. On one hand, gen times were increased. While on the other, all meta slowdown perks were nerfed hard. This in contribution with the buff to gen repair perks resulted in gens getting done even faster by high skill survivors, while also hurting low skill survivors, that can´t complete their objective.
But that doesn´t mean that killer should be more stressful. First of all, survivor has been always a walk in the park. Even solo. Simply, because doing gens or totems isn´t stressful at all. Sure, there are tight chases that can be stressful, but those usually get interrupted by calm moments. Because, as i said. The killer carries the whole match on his shoulders, while survivors distribute the workload.
Also, nerfing Nurse is a double edged sword. Since she has the lowest kill rate of all killers. Sure, high skilled nurses are very strong, but so are high skilled SWF squads. Which have a 15% higher escape rate. If you nerf one, you would also have to nerf the other. But how do you nerf SWF without nerfing solos or punishing people for playing with their friends?
You dont nerf SWF. You buff Killers once solo queue is brought up to the baseline. Simple as that.
Some very simple challenges, like repairing gens in coop, or heal so many health states. Took me way longer than necessary. Simply, because some of my teammates were doing some other challenges and were not interested at all in doing the objective. I´ve seen someone with a streamer mode run away from me (while i was injured), running repeatedly into a locker and then complain in the endgame chat. Because he needed to do some other challenge.
Honestly, the devs could almost completely avoid the issue with the challenges. By allowing people to equip several challenges at the same time + giving people the oportunity to see what challenges everyone has equipped in the lobby.
It's not that simple M1 Killers like Trapper can't be brought up to those levels because it's not possible. His Kit and some others are not made to become tuned up like that without some major reworks to the Kit itself.
Well..why not rework them?
Every buff to solos, is also a buff to SWF.
While the kill rates might look decent, you have to consider that low rank survivors have a abysmal low escape rate. Partly, because new survivors don´t know what to do. The tutorial is a good start, but we need the bot mode to be able to train as/against every single killer with a choice of addons and ingame hints on what is happening now.
Please explain to me how giving location information to solo queue players a buff to SWF,who already have that on comms. How?
I mean I was playing killer for the first time in a while last night, EU servers, 100% killer bonuses kicked in soon after I started playing and stayed that way for the rest of the night (although my queues were still kinda slow?) and I was doing my usual no slowdown thing, and I took a battering. For the most part, very strong teams with a shitton of hours combined.
This isn't a "swf bad" rant, I also got a couple of extremely solo queue games where someone dc'd at 5 gens or threw in some other pointless way, my preference would be the other side actually putting in some kind of effort. Plus the games were fun, they were nice enough opponents, chatted with them in postgame and visited their streams etc
But I'm mainly responding to the "SWF don't stomp anymore" but of course they do. Taking a bunch of good survivors (better than me, honestly) who can wreck you before 6.1.0., they don't instantly turn into a pile of helpless baby mice crawling over each other until put out of their misery because pallets are kicked 10% faster, gens take 10 seconds longer and the rest.
There are other factors (I'm very rusty, I had been hanging out with a friend and had a few drinks, late night EU on the weekends is wild) but the point still stands, I think.
Probably for the same reasons that Mandy gave when when responding to a Nerf Nurse thread. It would take ALOT of time to figure out New Powers for said Killers and the time to test them out and then fix any bugs issues and rework the numbers to buff or nerf them would take a considerable amount of time that would be better vested elsewhere. That's why they twerk the numbers
Every single attempt to bring solos on SWF information levels, has ultemately also buffed SWF.
The Undying notification uppon approaching a dull totem. Shows up for the solo, but the SWF team also gets informed about Undying in play. Ruin notification = everyone in the team gets told there is Ruin.
A basekit Kindred would optimize SWF even further. While only having minor impact on solos (which often like to ignore Kindred).
The latest update brought killers back to the game lol.
So instead of taking time and implementing really good changes we should..take less time and implement bad changes?
Beautifully said. I dont think I can word it any better than you.
All I can add is that No Role Should Be Stressful. Not killer, not survivor, because video games are meant to be for fun and relaxation. We have plenty of stress in the real world and stress would kill this game.
The 1 part of a 1v4 will always be stressful. You gotta juggle more things. There's nothing that can really be done for it without making it wildly favored to the 1 side.
I don't know where to begin. You think Wraith and Freddy can beat survivors, even under the best circumstances, that Nurse and Blight would lose to? Forget it. And you only go for 12 hooks and are 'confident' at killer? Sure you are. My point still stands that survivors' mistakes and misplays boosts the kills the killer gets, not killer being like "imma camp here" and suddenly they get 2 more kills just like that. You even admit that it's hard for killer to go for 12 hooks, which is entirely contradictory to what you said at the beginning, so I really don't know what your stance is. Is killer easy or is it hard? It can't be both.
A common theme I keep seeing with y'all is that you're survivor-centric in your thinking, in all the wrong ways. "Survivors can't do much against X strategy." Yes they can. "X shouldn't exist because it ruins the game for the survivors." By 'ruin' you mean make it harder to win. Survivors don't have to put in much work to get good results consistently. Killers have to put in tons of work and get failure consistently.
Yeah it's not camping, It's tunneling. Lol.
It was pretty clear to follow. Going for 12 hooks as killer is like cleansing all totems as survivor, opening all chests, doing all the other little things survivors can do and still expecting to 'win.' I'd much rather play that way, winning chases through skill and mind games and 'lose' a few more games than I would if I got my first kill on my third hook every game, which so many (bad) killers rely on.
You must have misunderstood about Wraith. Nurse and Blight are much better than every other killer, but saying Wraith is a killer that will struggle, or even get steam rolled, which you seem to be implying, is so far from reality.
In fact, the only way a killer can get steam rolled at any mmr if the killer is playing to 'win,' is if the survivors are a 4-stack of tournament level players. If you get rolled by anything else it means you didn't play well enough or dirty enough, or just weren't good enough (or the map/pallet/window spawns went against you...but that can happen to both sides).
I go for 12 hooks because playing the way most killers play (hard tunneling the first person hooked while proxy camping that first hook) is so, so easy, skilless, and if the devs realized it the game would be so much healthier.
The last paragraph is just wrong, so I'll just ignore it.
Whenever I play in SWF it feels somewhat the same. Whenever I'm in soloqueue, I feel terrible. Soloqueue really needs some love. BHVR needs to find ways for solo survivors to actually coördinate more like a team. Also, screw the solo survivors that just kill themselves on hook. As if soloqueue wasn't miserable enough, these survivors just make it even worse.
Your post has some very good points and I agree with all of your suggestions, but you really should change the title and the very few first paragraphs. They made you sound salty.
you got some good ideas here
but tbh none of this will work since MMR plays a giant role
and killer is already stressful as it is, just because you aren't getting stressed doesn't mean nobody is, high mmr is a stressing nightmare for killers since u have to deal with so much
well said
Those suggestions you made to fix the power vacuums such as making maps smaller etc I actually agree with basically all of them. The cooldown and speed burst reduction should be kept though since holding W is boring gameplay and cutting that as much as possible should always be encouraged but other then that good suggestions.
Which part?
I agree with some but not all of your ideas OP. Maps do need work but they don't need to be made smaller. We have so many killers that can cross maps almost instantly now and those with a large TR become oppressive if every map is small.
Shelter Woods needs to be killswitched until it can be reworked. It has too many dead zones and is an extremely killer-sided map.
Rotten Fields and the Azarov map with the shack in the center should also be looked at. Personally, I think if a map doesn't have two basement spawn possibilities, it should be changed.
RPD split should be redone simply. Take the original map and focus on the main hall in its center. Completely close off all exits on the left side of that room for one map and do the opposite on the other. Otherwise it is really difficult to learn the map and not hit a dead end -- they both look far too similar and really have no "east" or "west" feel to them. The new outside pieces can stay, just on the appropriate side.
Lastly, in addition to the baseline kindred, survivors need a "move a gen" perk or offering. It is far too easy for a solo queue to accidentally 3-gen OR a killer to force a 3-gen. The way I imagine it working is as follows . . .
SHELL GAME
When two generators have been completed, this perk activates. Use a secondary action on an unfinished generator to move it to the location of a completed generator. Once this action has been used by any survivor who has this perk, this perk deactivates for all survivors.
(Alternatively, it could be an offering, but it would need to be like multiple map offerings where only one makes it through.)
I invite you to come play against my squad. Go for a 12 hook game and see what the outcome is (or don’t, and we’ll still see).
I want to q with you for a week or something and see how surv is walk in a park. No comms. Would that be possible?
I don't think any role is "walk in a park" all the time.
Killer is more stressful to me too but surv is not exactly walk in the park. It just stress me less when I am getting obliterated.
We could get in contact over discord, if you want.
EDIT: i already did this with @Marigoria in the past and it was a nice experience.
Killers' "power role" is just a way of some killer main kids to say "I want easy wins!!"
Did you guys win most of your games?
I disagree about the survivor nerfs, but there is a problem with the game when the one player in an asymmetrical game is a walk in the park. Survivors, all 4 of them, have to play absolutely perfectly with zero mistakes and usually with perfect RNG, yet killer can make mistakes, cheese their way with wins by taking several shortcuts. A power role in a video game shouldn't be a thing.
Tell that to VHS.....
No they say Power Role because this is a Asymmetrical Game. In all Asymmetrical I have played the 1 is always the power role while the many are weaker as individuals but equal the power role together.
Best view of this is the game Evolve, the Monster player is a all powerful monster who has the advantage of starting before the hunters spawn to gain power fast. I'm that game it can get very one sided for the Monster if the Hunters don't work together as a team but if they have good teamwork then it's not so one sided and the Hunters could begin to tip the scales.
I have seen arguments where people say make Survivors as strong as the Killers or make the Killer the same power level as Survivors. In both those scenarios it can't happen because the Killer would be up against 4 players of equal power as them.
funny how they block out cruse words for a 18+ game lol BEHVIOR NEED TO GROW UP.
"best view of this is the most unbalanced asym in the history of asyms"
yeah alright,was nice talking to you buddy.
Another fun fact: I am seeing DH in every game now, sometimes even 3-4 like back in the days (though this kinda games are still the outliers), and most of the survivors wisend up to how to use it properly and use it to very, very strong effect. I have even seen some DHs that were night uncounterable, like when a survivor is reaching a vault just BARELY too slow, like 0,1s or something, just by a nails widths, they activated DH, Now, when I just couldn't get through the last two Iri ranks last season, for the first time ever I smurfed one of my killers to breeze through the Iri ranks and be done with it. After a couple of lost games DH nearly disappeared entirely, it just vanished from the face of the earth and didn't reappear until I was killing again, raising to the higher reaches of MMR.
I got the very strong feeling that the usage rate of DH in the survivors you are facing is one of the strongest indicators of you are in the higher-ish MMR regions, maybe even at the soft cap, or if you are below. Mid-ranking survivors and lower don't bother with DH, as they are lacking the experience and skills to utilize it. All those frustrated threads about "DH is absolute garbage now. Thanks BHVR!!11" are NOT from skilled and high MMR survivor players, thats for sure.
TL,DR: probably the best indicator of you are in the higher-ish regions of MMR (we will never know for sure) is if you are versing survivors with DH on the regularly, and if they use DH to good effect.
What are you talking about that's a pretty fair game as long as your teammates are total idiots...I had a game where my teammate caged the monster but locked all of them out of the cage and I was stuck inside the cage....but I also played many hunter games where we won matches.
I see you want to go back to the game desperately needing killer players.
ah yes the thread which suggests tons of killer buffs is 100% survivor sided.
I'd rather have fun as survivor. Escaping 90% of the time isn't fun. Nor is seeing people Tbag everything but Nurse, because it's the only threatening killer. I quit when survivor was easy. I came back because it has some challenge. Change it back and I just quit again. I can play things besides Asym. And no, I don't even play killer. I have a played a single Wesker game and that's it since March.
A lot of people here haven’t played killer much and it shows. 😂
People thinking the stats prove anything are the proof for why people should be required to take a statistics class.
I'm surprised people find Killer stressful. My experience has always been the opposite. As survivor a single mistake can end the game for you. Also, things can happen that you have no control over, bad play/luck by a teammate can end your chances. As killer if I miss a chase, no big deal. Get back on the gens, find another survivor, etc. Survivors running through the gens? Focus on the narrowing map. Fail even that, focus on trying to catch one during EGC.
As survivor the fact that I can be eliminated adds a ton of stress. That doesn't exist for killer. Not saying it is necessarily easy, just surprised people find it more stressful.
Bro i play main survivors since 2016. I play only swf and since the patch me and the boys got 100win streaks and stuff. Idk what you are talking about but survivors was and is always op if you play with good mates who know the game. For example the 5sec buff to basekit bt was soooo unnecessary and op now you can escape 100% if you get unhooked in endgame. Killers just cant Camp at least 1 kill in the end game which was already hard to do before this buff.
"Buff solo up to SWF then buff killers!!!" okay what buffs would those be? What would be acceptable for survivor mains? No one ever fills in this part. OP in here crying about 10% faster weapon cool down and shortened speed boost
Nothing about the game should be stressful? Really? The only way that happens if there is no win or loss condition. Killed survivors respawn after 30 seconds with fresh bodies and the game goes until the doors open and everyone leaves.
You now must do all 7 gens to open the gates. Killers will have 100 kills per game and the survivors respawning never feel like they lost. Games now last an hour and everyone caps blood points. Woo no stress!
The game should not be balanced around you and your tiny miniscule portion of the player base that take the game so seriously that you play like it's a literal military operation.
It seems you read part of the thread, but missed the parts you complain about. He made these suggestions.
"Killer should be harder than survivor and more stressful."
Why? What is harder? For a 2oo kg monster to kill 4 teenagers or for a teennager to survive and escape from a building with a 200kg killer monster in ita? What is more stressful? To kill or to be killed?
Sorry but i stopped reading at this point.
The people thinking the statistics don't prove anything is proof some people should stay out of statistics classes.
I did read. He went all ScottJund that killers only lose to 4 stacks cause they played bad