WHAT'S THE FIX TO CAMPING?
All right, let's try to have a thoughtful, organized, and productive discussion. We all know what camping is, and unless you're a player who likes to camp, it's generally seen as a problem.
Of those people who see it as a problem, there tend to be two camps. One camp is made of people who think, "It sucks, but that's human nature. The devs can't do anything about that." The other is, "The devs can fix it. If they make changes to the game that discourage--or even prevent--camping, camping will be a thing of the past." If you are someone who believes the devs can prevent/dissuade camping, please explain your ideas on how that can be done. I assume there will be more than one answer, since different Killers have different powers (Bubba camping is a different scenario than Trapper camping). So, what are your ideas? Please explain.
***IMPORTANT****
I know there are some of you who have nuanced opinions--or even totally different opinions. Some of you think, "If a person buys a game, they can do whatever they want. Your feelings about that aren't important." Others think, "Grow a thicker skin and move on to the next game." Others think, "It's a valid strategy--even if you don't like it." I understand you have your perspectives. However, the purpose of this thread is to hear from the people who believe the devs can change it to explain how. I'd rather stick to that topic than get lost in a sea of various opinions. Please keep that in mind. This is a very specific thread topic, and I want to understand those people's opinions and ideas.
Comments
with the new base changes to killer and gens this shouldn't be a problem anymore.
That's actually a fair point. The math is now different. I wonder how that experiment would play out now.
You mean... Kindred. But no, they dicided to make BT basekit instead. :/
Yep
Hooks of atonement is the answer basically make hooks function exactly like the cage if a killer camps too long
Firstly, that test ran five years ago. There's every reason to test it again, with all the changes that have been made in the meantime.
Secondly, I don't think hook timer increases are a good idea, since that'd nerf non-camping killers too, lowering the pressure on the survivors.
There's always one person that tries this idea. This was done once before. It was abused by survivors and is not coming back.
I have a better solution. Give the unhooker the endurance status if he completes the unhook in time, but if he fails to unhook, the animation is cancelled and the unhook won't happen.
This would make the game more balanced, so every survivor team would have a certain role to fill in order to survive the game. The unhooker The looper, the healer, and the gen rusher.
There's no reason to propose it because DEVs won't go back to this idea, not because that ideas makes no sense.
Non-camping Killers feel would feel no difference from increased hook timers. As soon as someone is hooked most survivors swarm the hook and a hooked survivor almost never reaches the next hook stage unless the killer camps. On top of that the longer a survivor is hooked, the longer there's one survivor less in the game doing gens, repairing, healing, destructing the killer. So this argument is invalid.
There's no reason to propose it because DEVs won't go back to this idea, not because that ideas makes no sense.
The devs are infallible, and the feedback section is a hoax.
Dev opinion is not an argument.
Non-camping Killers feel would feel no difference from increased hook timers. As soon as someone is hooked most survivors swarm the hook and a hooked survivor almost never reaches the next hook stage unless the killer camps. On top of that the longer a survivor is hooked, the longer there's one survivor less in the game doing gens, repairing, healing, destructing the killer. So this argument is invalid.
I disagree. Especially in the case of Hex Ruin, a shorter hook timer may force a survivor to let go of a gen before they're able to finish it, if they don't want to risk their teammate losing a hookstate. Additionally, if the killer is attempting to juggle multiple survivors, they don't need to hold on to that state for as long with shorter hook timers.
I can just see some collateral damage to non-camping killers if the hook timers are increased.
Still no one tell me how it is abused, maybe I, or someone else, would tweak it with another idea. Just an simple example.
If I chase another survivor, I'll be definetely outside 12m (except shack, maybe, but shack chase algorithm is already known by everyone except new players), or if I can't catch survivor around the hook for a long time, I think I should raise my skill more and I'm definetely not belong on this MMR.
Also with paused timer is basically a slugged survivor. I would behave the same as when I slug someone, or is slugging not viable?
Please, give me example.
As another option, don't show killer hook progress, continue timer if survivor is neaby, or even make it 1.5 faster. And I don't think why insidious shouldn't has cooldown if it is not used for facecamping.
Basekit Kindred, increase survivor repair speed by X% after 30 seconds of the killer remaining within Xm of a hooked survivor outside of chase, healthy survivors can't be grabbed during the unhook action.
Pausing or slowing the hook timer doesn't seem universally fair. It's still a valid strategy that is the correct choice in the right scenario. You don't want to needlessly punish those who are using it to generate pressure, or lock down an area. You also don't want to needlessly punish EGC camping.
I think it's best to avoid any sweeping changes that needlessly punish the majority. There is no way to outright stop camping without removing camping as a strategy altogether.
I have used X% and Xm because I'd rather leave the numbers up to people who have a better idea on what would be reasonable.
Then I guess the only way to fix camping bubba is nerf his chainsaw to not hit multiple people problem solved. Since now he can get an auto 2k from camping.
No need to change that, is a strat about rushing the killer objective, killers need addons added to basekit and QoL changes on pyramid and trickstet
As it stands, even with the coming changes, camping needs to be addressed in a way that not only provides incentives for the killer to leave the hook, but also provides disincentives for staying within the hooked survivor's radius.
Camping is a legitimate and valid strategy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed to only be rewarding when used correctly.
Maybe changing the hook timers from 60-75 seconds or pausing slowing down when killer is within 16 metres of hook.
20 extra seconds on hook timer for each stage + remove hook grabs would do wonders. Then they could also comfortably nerf BT to be like 10 seconds instead of 15 since survivors have a much bigger room to unhook.
I mean the killer is removing survivor agency in regards to facecamping hooks.
They incentivised NOT camping. By making it easier to end chases faster.
are you sure? They're weakening perks that promote leaving the hook. Pop goes weasel, Ruin, tinkerer, Pain res, BBQ. the base-kit chase are not good enough to go for many more chases.
I'd say their best bet in giving survivor agency is inventing a perk that upon beginning unhook, survivors become immune to being grabbed and are granted endurance status effect for 3/4/5 seconds. cooldown of 30 seconds similar to soul guard.
To be fair, they're also buffing perks that promote leaving the hook. Overcharge, for instance, on top of buffing generator kicking in general, and the new Monstrous Shrine as well.
I think at worst it'll break even on that regard, not make things any worse.
i'd say overcharge promotes the killer to camp generators. you know, hook a survivor, see a gen at 70%, kick gen, chill at the hook with the gen as the regression build-up. Monstrous shrine promotes proxy camping and encourages survivors to hook bomb. so i'd say both hooks are related to camping.
don't think it will make anything worse, just keep everything at status quo.
Whatever solution you guys come up with,
It better not restrict the agency of the Killer to protect the Hook from survivors who come to unhook the second he hooked.
So I guess my question is, why is camping considered a problem by you?
Also, have you guys considered some data gathering of Killer testimonies regarding camping?
Like I know you guys are probably not the most scientific, but worth the energy you put into arguing these 'fixes to camping' you would have some pretty compelling data gathering about Camping, Why a Killer sees that as their best option? etc. Just a thought.
One, I didn't say my personal opinion. Two, that's beyond the scope of the post, as outlined in the final paragraph.
Agreed.
Gone up against two insidious bubba's today. This game is 6 years old and this is still a thing? Bizarre.
I'd say it depends on when you're proxy camping. At 5 gens? Nah, you're a dweeb. No sore loser about it. At 2 gens? Fair enough.
The definition of "survivor handbook" right there.
Yeah. Sorry as a survivor. I want to be in the match for more than three minutes. ######### me, right?
"All right, let's try to have a thoughtful, organized, and productive discussion. We all know what camping is, and unless you're a player who likes to camp, it's generally seen as a problem."
You forgot to ask : Why does camping happen? The answer is because the survivor objective is much shorter than the killer objective. Generators can be completed in under 3 minutes by the very best survivors in a SWF and in 4 minutes by randoms without voice coms; to win as killer it requires 6-8 minutes.
As a survivor you discreetly finish generators (that is to say you finish one before trying to start another). This is the most efficient strategy because a killer cannot "undo" a finished generator. Therefore the killer will be most efficient by eliminating a survivor before attempting to hook anyone else.
If you want camping to change the killer objective needs to change.
Imagine for example if a killer could kick completed generators. A perk like Scourge Hook pain resonance would affect an uncompleted generator but Pop could be used for either.
This would make the killer focused on trying to keep many of the generators unfinished instead of focusing on eliminating one survivor as quickly as possible.
12 meters is not enough distance to really matter.
Also, the way it was abused is that Survivors would intentionally run the Killer around the Hooked Survivor. They would keep the chase close to the hook, and essentially extend the hook time to nearly infinite. If the Killer drops the chase, the Survivors get to unhook for free. If the Killer does not drop the chase, the Survivor on hook gets to hang out forever. If/when the Killer finally drops the Survivor, they must get OUT of that area to get the hook timer going on again. So either they leave the chased Survivor slugged or pick them up to bring them to a new hook, at which point another Survivor can make the rescue. With all the wasted time on account of there being NO incentive to go for a direct hook save, the Survivor successfully let the other two Survivors work on gens without any worries, kept the Survivor on hook alive the entire time and without any timer penalties, kept the Killer busy, and now forced the Killer to bring them to another hook, which is potentially far enough away to get a pallet save, wiggle off, or at least let the other two Survivors get the unhook so it's 3 off hook again.
Obviously, some hooks made this strat easier than other, while others make it harder. It depends on hook placement. If it's near a jungle gym, the Survivors will abuse the bajeezus out of it.
Yes, the Killer could make a point to stay away from the hook as much as possible, but that may come at the cost of cutting out some mind games depending on the tile, as well as giving the chased Survivor distance. To avoid the penalty may cost the Killer severely.
Any time the Killer gets into a chase from that point on, and there is a Survivor on hook, they will lead the Killer to that hook in order to pause hook progress. The Survivors can, every single time, force a complete loss of pressure on the Killer by making them either get into useless chases that pause the hook or give the chased Survivor way more distance by traveling wide around the hook.
When it was originally tested, this is all what happened. The vast majority of Survivors in the test would simply lead the Killer to the hook in order to force hook pause, which allowed the others to get gens done, keep the person on hook alive, and essentially remove all pressure from the Survivor team. It was punishing Killers that weren't trying to camp, they were simply chasing and getting lead into the new mechanic. These days, some Killers might have an answer to all of this. Many won't. Back then, it was a disaster.
If you put a timer on the mechanic so that it takes several seconds to kick in, campers can just move in and out of range before the timer goes up. If the range isn't far enough, the camper can still just sit outside of range and react to anything that happens around the hook. If the range is far enough to make it hard for a camper to react to someone going for an unhook, then it is far enough for a non-camping Killer to get lead to the hook and kited around it.
Get rid of hooks and let players respawn somewhere on the map, will fix camping and improve survivor gameplay, instead of spending whole match incapacited for long minutes on hook and on ground you can actually play the game, it's not surprising that there's so many DCs currently
I didn't forget to ask.
The intention for this post was to invite people who think camping is a fixable problem to maturely explain how. It was to have, as much as is possible with strangers on the internet, a good faith conversation. There were ideas I read that made me think, "I never thought of that. That's a good point." And others that made me think, "I don't think that idea takes into account X." But still, I do understand their positions a bit better now. Of course, not everyone will share their opinions or like their ideas. Many think there are justifiable reasons to camp, or there aren't any solutions to it even if it's unjustifiable. I understand that and thought it was important to acknowledge that perspective, so I did in my final paragraph. But the purpose was to simply hear from those people who hold that particular opinion.
Camping/Tunneling: Killer :: Gen rush : Survivor
What would replace the hook timer mechanism? Meaning, when someone is hooked, someone else has to get that person off (that slows down gens). It also puts a Survivor in a position where there is a set amount of time for them to get "free" before they die. So if Survivors respawn anywhere, those things (and perks like Deliverance) are no longer a factor. And how does a Killer "sacrifice" someone without a hook?
Not sure what you mean.
Fairly hard to change it but I don't think they would have to re-work the entire way things are. Let the killer see people after they hook someone for a few seconds sounds crazy but might stop them from camping.
The easier rework would be : If you are 16m away from a hooked survivor you see any survivor touching a generator and you continue to see them until 4 seconds after they stop touching a generator.
Everyone wants to think of ways to punish the killer for camping. That's just not going to work.
Part of the game... I am not playing survivor that often but it RARELY happens to me
As opposed to what?
Incentivizing the Killer to leave the hook with a reward?
That obviously doesn't work either.
All of these stupid comments saying -- if I had more time, if gens weren't so fast, if there weren't so many pallets blah blah blah
Guess what -- there could be zero pallets on a map, gens could take two minutes to complete, two Survivors could start out placed on hook etc
Big surprise, players would still camp.
Pop goes my dinggy basekit
As if that has anything to do with so-called "proxy camping"
The only thing the killer has to do to counter this is learn to live with it. Its a low IQ way to play, and thats why its a go-to.
Now there needs to be some balance. I mean camping at the last gen or in EGC are one of the times where it makes sense, I'm not saying there's never a time for it. But camping at 5 gens, while a valid strategy, involves zero skill, and its just a lazy easy tactic that is leaned on too much. So for "what should the killer do about finding survivors if they can't face camp" is just a "they will get better with practice." This game isn't easy for everyone right out of the gate, nor should it be. Fun yes, super difficult to learn no, but it requires some hours to learn these things. But learning to patrol and find survivors isn't hard.
Now something can be said about some of the larger maps, not saying I don't agree with everything you said. I think they maybe do one map rework a year or something like this so fixing that problem is going to be a slow burn.
You posted in a public forum, people are gonna ask or discuss things that you didn't dictate were "within the scope" of your initial post. You can dodge questions all you want but people are gonna ask them 😅
Correct. People can choose to ignore that. They can choose to derail it. They can choose to act in a way that shows they value speaking more than letting others have a productive conversation. And when that happens, I also make a choice.
I mean if we want to go into a massive overhaul, you could have it so survivors have 3 three "lives" instead of hook stages. If they get downed, they die and have a "X"min respawn, maybe two. While they are in respawn, they can change their load out but not survivor or cosmetics (offsets the pain of the respawn timer but doesn't completely throw the killer off of who's who).
Meanwhile there are multiple gateways in the map that they can respawn from, and at which another survivor or multiple survivors can do a ritual to reduce the respawn time to get them in quicker at the cost of spending time on gens. If a survivor is downed for the third time, they are moried and out of the game and if the killer gets all four survivors on respawn at the same time, they all lose any remaining lives and the killer wins with a 4k.
Would require a huge rework of perks, addons, gen times, etc. that would never happen but fixes camping and mostly tunneling in one go.
Maybe something like that could be for DBD2, but I don't think they'd let Survivors change their load outs. I've sometimes wondered what DBD2 could look like. I thought maybe there'd be a "story mode" where you have to escape from the Entity once and for all.
Your idea of changing the mechanics with having people spawn in, and Survivors having to choose to work on gens/do a ritual, is certainly interesting.
Honestly it was just for something to do while they wait down the respawn timer. I don't want to give them anything that impacts the game as they should be out, and that includes spectator mode as that could unfairly benefits SWFs. Maybe some sort of mini game that could give them a small reduction in respawn time. Although it would need to be more engaging than "press space when the thing is on the thing."
ANY game mechanic that slows down the timer, or messes with it in any way, if the killer is close, causes Survivors to then loop the Killer around the hooked target, thereby not only wasting the killer's time with the chase but punishing him for being near the hook because he took on said chase.
As I said, it was done before, it was a terrible idea, the devs removed it.
Make gen kicking meaningful without perks.