I really wish dbe would hurry up with the character. Weve gotten so much hetero representation, why not the LGBTQ community too? Its been almost a year, and oh boy is BHVR taking their time.
I really wish dbe would hurry up with the character. Weve gotten so much hetero representation, why not the LGBTQ community too? Its been almost a year, and oh boy is BHVR taking their time.
Who cares about a gay character in a game bro? People have too much free time nowadays
Oh jeez, can we not start this again pleased? This is about as original as the "Spirit nerf" threads. Every character is A sexual and not a single one has any interest in any of the others. There you go now everyone is represented.
Except this isn't the case at all unfortunately. Frank and Julie, for one, as their entire tome was about it, but then also Nurse, David, and Felix in their own lore to a much lesser extent.
Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation.
Edit: yeah I hope I didn't come across as too confrontational when I started, idk if you could tell but it's kinda an important topic to me lol
Good to meet you Karu. I respect that you're passionate about what you believe in. That's a good thing. I am too. When two passionate people don't necessarily see things exactly the same way they can often get started off on the wrong foot, which is a shame.
And yep, you're free to call me Mike. It's ma name. The "Rat guy" part came from the fact that I used to bring my domesticated rats to a local park and people got to know me as "the rat guy".
Feel free to disregard the tacky shirt, it was my "at the park with rats crawling on me" shirt.
Except this isn't the case at all unfortunately. Frank and Julie, for one, as their entire tome was about it, but then also Nurse, David, and Felix in their own lore to a much lesser extent.
Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation.
To be fair, I don't think anyone liked the Frank and Julie tome.
Actually no. If you take your emotion out of the discussion you'll see that my opinion is that a character should not be defined by their sexuality, race, religion, politics, etc. The term "identity politics" exists. I didn't invent it. It defines the pushing of one's own self as something that should take special precedent, something that should be included not as an organic addition but as a way of singling it out.
I called no one anything. I never once said that I was against gays or anyone else being in this game. I said that I don't support the modern trend of forcing such things just so that everyone can feel "included". How identical to oneself does a character have to be to feel included? I even provided examples. I can play as women. Black characters. If some of the characters in this game are gay or trans, I couldn't care less. I met a trans member of this forum and we played plenty of games together. I even complimented him on his ability to appear female. I have two gay cousins. But yes, because I don't like the practice of demanding "equal treatment" (when in fact this would imply that any straight people are demanding inclusion when in fact I doubt most straight players of the game care one way or another), I am essentially called a bigot for having the audacity not to agree.
I don't care what I said. I never once personally attacked ANY of you. The fact that one of you would call me homophobic is a disgusting, knee-jerk reaction that shows that you don't understand nor care to understand my argument, you just want what you want and assume that anyone who finds this to be obnoxious is, again, a selfish bigot.
You should be ashamed of yourselves. I was voting for gay rights before most of you were likely even alive. But hey, I'm the bad guy because I don't like people trying to force their will on others and claiming victimization, oppression, and hate on the side of the enemy for not agreeing. So be it.
Some people have already said it, but sexuality and race are not really comparable to religion and political opinions because the latter are (mostly) a choice, the former is not. (Yui's and Jane's lore does have political undertones though.)
Also I think there is a difference in wanting super specific characters and wanting a diverse cast. Obviously super specific is hard: There have been discussions about characters from a specific country and while there is nothing wrong with making a suggestion, the Devs obviously can't include all 194 countries of the world. But a diverse cast is a different story, it's about having many characters from many different backgrounds so that there is a higher chance that different people will feel represented. And Behaviour is already doing it, the characters are not just one race and one gender. Does it identy the characters? I think that depends on the player, some might play a character just because the like the look, some because they like the backstory and some because they identify with the character. And I think that would be the same with sexuality, for some it would be the most important thing about the character and some wouldn't care.
On the topic of sexualtity the Devs have only mentioned heterosexuell relationship in the lore though and this is not a 194 countries situation, it is just heterosexuell or not heterosexuell, so it shouldn't be to hard to include it. And as you probably know, the Devs have already said, that they want to do it. And as @GoodBoyKaru has mentioned it's not like we expect more than a few sentences in the lore. And about the topic of a token character: There is always a possibility of doing something wrong so if you follow the argument "don't do it, it might turn out bad" than nothing would ever be done.
On the identify politics thing: I'm straight, so I have no personal interest and an LGBTQ character would not make me feel more represented, I think it is just a question of fairness.
I see that last bit as being indirected towards me 👀
My point there was that if you don't have the experience your opinion shouldn't be held as highly than people who do have the experience, be it on representation or the benefits of eating healthy. If you disagree, cool. That joys of opinions am I right.
I don't want to add anything, maybe i agree with you, maybe not but you getting called a homophobe was a pretty ######### mood
Thank you. I have various philosophies on most things, I've been around long enough and have spoken to enough people to have learned that looking at both sides and playing devil's advocate is a useful way of having a discussion. I enjoy objectivity. Go back and look at any of my posts here and you'll see that I don't take the survivor's side (even though that's my main) than I take the killer's side. As for the gay thing, I wish that the trans person I befriended from this site several weeks ago would be able to pop in and make it clear that I'm anything but a homophobe (I won't mention this person's name as outing someone without their consent is a horrible thing to do).
I understand that the person who called me a homophobe doesn't know me. But I felt that they were basing their conclusion off of very little - they either deliberately or unintentionally ignored the greater point that I was trying to make and chose instead to feel that I was attacking them, or perhaps someone they care about, for essentially no reason. They were of course welcome to think that, even if it would have been incorrect. But to label me a bigot for having a difference of opinion is, to me, just about the lowest thing that you can call someone - and it was doubly offensive since it isn't even correct. Again, they don't KNOW that, but that's a good reason why they shouldn't have said it.
That’s a fair enough standpoint for sure. If you don’t care you don’t care. But others do care. Others may need representation to get away from oppression/discrimination/hate/violence because of their identity or sexual orientation in real life. It wouldn’t hurt you but representation helps to normalize these topics and help letting feel people included when they struggle with this in other areas.
and you have to agree people can take offense when you are using terms like „crap“ „feeling sick dealing with it“ etc. when talking about it. And it certainly doesn’t feel like you don’t care when using such a language.
and just for the record, I don’t apologize because I never accused you of being homophobic to begin with. I explicitly stated that before actually. And I didn’t feel attacked or insulted personally as well, I just pointed out that others may feel insulted by it. Overall it seems you were trying to accuse me of being too emotional about this topic when it felt like you were way more emotional.
No, I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not the person who said it.
Except this isn't the case at all unfortunately. Frank and Julie, for one, as their entire tome was about it, but then also Nurse, David, and Felix in their own lore to a much lesser extent.
Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation.
Pretty arrogant of you to think you know anything about me don't you think? You throw around trash terms like "homophobic" because it's a terrible way to say someone else's way of thinking is irrelevant and should be ignored. A bit hateful, arrogant and discriminatory wouldn't you say? Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over.
I see that last bit as being indirected towards me 👀
My point there was that if you don't have the experience your opinion shouldn't be held as highly than people who do have the experience, be it on representation or the benefits of eating healthy. If you disagree, cool. That joys of opinions am I right.
👀 not really but thanks for taking the bullet I guess. I just skim read most the walls.
I dont beleive in what you are saying because that way of thinking just leads to peoples opinions being dismissed and causing an echo chamber.
Everyone experiences different things, im sure I have had a completley different life to someone of the same sexual orentation and race, so whos opinon should be held more higher?🤷♂️
I don't know if saying people's opinions don't matter based off of their sexuality and skin color is a great idea. I see what you meant, but that doesn't sound right to me.
True. However, people have to realise that they don't understand why LGBT+ people want representation. How could they? They arent the ones ostracised.
True. However, people have to realise that they don't understand why LGBT+ people want representation. How could they? They arent the ones ostracised.
I don't think that's entirely true.
I think most of us have been ostracized before. We've felt the loneliness and despair associated with it. People might not be able to get it but they can understand.
It's like someone dealing with the loss of a close relative. You understand how it feels to lose someone like that, even if you don't know precisely how they feel in that situation.
👀 not really but thanks for taking the bullet I guess. I just skim read most the walls.
I dont beleive in what you are saying because that way of thinking just leads to peoples opinions being dismissed and causing an echo chamber.
Everyone experiences different things, im sure I have had a completley different life to someone of the same sexual orentation and race, so whos opinon should be held more higher?🤷♂️
Well i bit the bullet so, ######### it, might as well get shot.
"Everyone experiences different things, im sure I have had a completley different life to someone of the same sexual orentation and race, so whos opinon should be held more higher?"
Out of mine and yours? Neither. We're both gay and so even though we've had different experiences they've allowed us to form our own conclusion on the subject of representation. If, say, it was a trans woman or a cis woman on the subject of representation, or a gay man and a straight man in the subject of gay rights, then imo you should take the opinion of the trans woman/gay man over the cis woman/straight man. They've had to experience the struggles so their opinions should be higher.
But, say, in terms of your fears of it being an echo chamber, yeah I can see where that'd come from. But imho every gay person should have their opinion on gay representation taken with equal value (unless they're literally saying every straight man should be burnt in carpet as retribution for what their ancestors did, in which case lock them up ASAP), with straight people still having an opinion and being allowed to have an opinion, but having said opinion be held with less value (not no value, less value) than that of a gay man.
To use an example earlier, it's like a trained fitness coach vs a coach potato on the subject of healthy living.
Pretty arrogant of you to think you know anything about me don't you think? You throw around trash terms like "homophobic" because it's a terrible way to say someone else's way of thinking is irrelevant and should be ignored. A bit hateful, arrogant and discriminatory wouldn't you say? Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over.
GoodBoyKaru didn’t call you directly a homophobe though. Learn to read.
Pretty arrogant of you to think you know anything about me don't you think? You throw around trash terms like "homophobic" because it's a terrible way to say someone else's way of thinking is irrelevant and should be ignored. A bit hateful, arrogant and discriminatory wouldn't you say? Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over.
That's, not what I was getting at. At all. In the slightest. I didn't call you explicitly homophobic nor do I believe you to be.
"Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation."
I was saying that if you aren't happy with equality in representation with straight people, you're either really entitled or homophobic. I didn't say you specifically were, I was talking to a group of people who may or may not exist in this thread and may or may not read it.
I'm sorry if my point was unclear, just know I didn't mean to insult you in any way.
"Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over."
So am I, trust me. Coming up to 3 years and I see the same discussions every day, at leas the Forum Representation Wars™ are only like 4 times a year instead of daily.
But know what I'm also tired of? Not being represented in lots of media and having people decide what I can and cannot do in private behind closed doors with complete consent.
Edit: be it legally (not me) or be it just through others around me deciding it's right or wrong (applies to me) but having no actual sway.
That's, not what I was getting at. At all. In the slightest. I didn't call you explicitly homophobic nor do I believe you to be.
"Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation."
I was saying that if you aren't happy with equality in representation with straight people, you're either really entitled or homophobic. I didn't say you specifically were, I was talking to a group of people who may or may not exist in this thread and may or may not read it.
I'm sorry if my point was unclear, just know I didn't mean to insult you in any way.
"Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over."
So am I, trust me. Coming up to 3 years and I see the same discussions every day, at leas the Forum Representation Wars™ are only like 4 times a year instead of daily.
But know what I'm also tired of? Not being represented in lots of media and having people decide what I can and cannot do in private behind closed doors with complete consent.
I am a bit curious about that last paragraph, by any chance do you not live in a western country?
I'd rather have a well thought character be LGBT than a rushed one just to be the token LGBT character.
They will most likely be seen as "the token LGBT character" no matter what. People who aren't exactly well-intentioned will certainly push that narrative. I'm guessing their "argument" will be that there's only one LGBT character, so obviously they're just a token character. And if there's more than one, well, that's just "shoving propaganda* down our throats".
*Substitute for "wokeness", "politics", "political agenda", "cultural Marxism", and whatever other meaningless buzzword they use to mean "people who aren't like me".
I am a bit curious about that last paragraph, by any chance do you not live in a western country?
No, I do. Europe, to be precise.
For me, it's more the social stigma. Jfc people are absurd when it comes to "OH MY GOD YOU'RE ######### A GUY" when if it was a girl they'd be fine with it.
I'm well aware, though, that it's perfectly legal where I live. Under the law there's no issues.
Many others do not have this luxury and they need representation in their culture even more than I do.
For me, it's more the social stigma. Jfc people are absurd when it comes to "OH MY GOD YOU'RE ######### A GUY" when if it was a girl they'd be fine with it.
I'm well aware, though, that it's perfectly legal where I live. Under the law there's no issues.
Many others do not have this luxury and they need representation in their culture even more than I do.
Honestly, in the US, even where I live out in the country, people don't care.
You might get some jokes, or some questions, but nobody ever really comments negatively on it.
Hell, even at my private Christian school (it was the best school in the area and my parents had grown up poor so they wanted the best) half of the football team was openly gay for each other and nobody really said anything about it.
Some people have already said it, but sexuality and race are not really comparable to religion and political opinions because the latter are (mostly) a choice, the former is not. (Yui's and Jane's lore does have political undertones though.)
Also I think there is a difference in wanting super specific characters and wanting a diverse cast. Obviously super specific is hard: There have been discussions about characters from a specific country and while there is nothing wrong with making a suggestion, the Devs obviously can't include all 194 countries of the world. But a diverse cast is a different story, it's about having many characters from many different backgrounds so that there is a higher chance that different people will feel represented. And Behaviour is already doing it, the characters are not just one race and one gender. Does it identy the characters? I think that depends on the player, some might play a character just because the like the look, some because they like the backstory and some because they identify with the character. And I think that would be the same with sexuality, for some it would be the most important thing about the character and some wouldn't care.
On the topic of sexualtity the Devs have only mentioned heterosexuell relationship in the lore though and this is not a 194 countries situation, it is just heterosexuell or not heterosexuell, so it shouldn't be to hard to include it. And as you probably know, the Devs have already said, that they want to do it. And as @GoodBoyKaru has mentioned it's not like we expect more than a few sentences in the lore. And about the topic of a token character: There is always a possibility of doing something wrong so if you follow the argument "don't do it, it might turn out bad" than nothing would ever be done.
On the identify politics thing: I'm straight, so I have no personal interest and an LGBTQ character would not make me feel more represented, I think it is just a question of fairness.
This is a controversial topic but I personally agree, homosexuality is not a choice. Again, I've known several and am still friends with / related to several who are, and I feel that anyone who's spent any time with someone who isn't straight can pretty easily understand that it's an inherent feeling, not a choice that they made after waking up one day.
I related it to something like race / ethnicity, which is something else that a person can't change. I use the Doctor in this game, he's black (or at least African-American). I like the character a lot, I think that he's one of the more interesting characters in the game. As mentioned my favorite games in the GTA series heavily (or exclusively) required me to play as a young black man. I didn't think anything of it because the game was good. It's not as if I didn't notice - there are obvious cultural and ethnic differences - I just didn't care, and when I say I didn't care what I mean is "it did nothing to worsen my experience".
To that extent, as a straight male maybe it IS difficult to understand why some people who are not feel that a game or film (or what have you) isn't complete until someone more like themselves is included. To me it's not about representation or inclusion, I have nothing wrong with any of that. I just don't like modern society's highly politicized atmosphere which fosters the belief that if you DON'T go out of your way to tick all the boxes and include someone who represents all possible types of people, you are in fact a bigot and must make amends. This is painting with a broad brush, but this is also currently the world (at least the country) that I live in. As another example, the actress Ashley Judd once said that she couldn't stand hearing pro-Trump rhetoric at a basketball game (or something) and unironically advocated for the existence of "safe spaces" where people don't have to listen to anyone who feels differently about something than they do. That's the kind of dividing line where freedom of speech becomes an evil, the ability to have different opinions seen as something negative. One side wants to determine what's best for everyone. THAT is what I don't agree with. Not inclusion, not diversity, but those who feel that anyone who opposes such things are bad, wrong, intolerant, bigoted, evil, etc.
I'm not saying that this was the prevailing attitude of the thread before I made my comment. That said, my comment was informed by having had many negative experiences with other people, away from this forum, who feel that "tolerance" and "inclusion" is something that must be forced in all walks of life, and if someone dares to find that attitude uncomfortable, then that person is inherently, morally "wrong". That is the slippery slope that makes me uncomfortable, and was exemplified, in my opinion, by my having been called a bigot for trying to express this viewpoint.
TL;DR: I have a hyper-conservative friend who thinks that homosexuality is a sin that should be cured by shock therapy. I have gay relatives who live happier, more productive, more positive lives than this other guy could ever hope to achieve. My point? They've all lived their own individual lives, they've all had their own individual experiences, They all have the right to believe what they do, based on a set of morals and ethics that, for various reasons, feel right to THEM. I have no problem with them all existing. It's when one tries to force those morals and ethics on others, to make others think the way that they do lest they be shamed for not doing so, that is a slippery slope that I find uncomfortable. That is basically all I was trying to say.
Bottom line, if BHVR creates a flamboyantly gay trans character (just as a hypothetical example), so be it. I'll still play the game. If they don't, so be it, I'll still play the game. I don't hold it against people for wanting to see someone close to themselves represented in their chosen form of media, I just don't share the opinion that it's a necessity for enjoying said media. If a LBQT game is a lot of fun, I'll still play it. But my moral compass doesn't have to be everyone else's.
It's extremely rude to but into other people's conversations. Please go bother someone else as I haven't interest in conversing with you.
Then don’t post in an open forum but go into some form of private messaging.
i am fairly certain Karu had no problem with my statement here and this is not a dialogue. If you have a problem with that you can just leave the discussion. I won’t leave.
Honestly, in the US, even where I live out in the country, people don't care.
You might get some jokes, or some questions, but nobody ever really comments negatively on it.
Hell, even at my private Christian school (it was the best school in the area and my parents had grown up poor so they wanted the best) half of the football team was openly gay for each other and nobody really said anything about it.
A shame it isn't the same where you live.
If I'm being honest it's mostly the adults. One of my besties at college is Christian and when I told her someone asked me out she literally screamed in excitement lmao
For me, it's more the social stigma. Jfc people are absurd when it comes to "OH MY GOD YOU'RE ######### A GUY" when if it was a girl they'd be fine with it.
I'm well aware, though, that it's perfectly legal where I live. Under the law there's no issues.
Many others do not have this luxury and they need representation in their culture even more than I do.
Well just some friendly advice: you should refrain calling people slurs or thinking they are terrible for thinking a certain way. Different cultures breed different values and morals. Trying to force a way of thinking on someone has been attempted in the past...and even many nazis believed they were morally right at the time. It's a dangerous way of thinking and I hate to see anyone go down that path. Also before you say anything, no, I wasn't talking about what you said to me. Just some advice from someone who would see you be a good person. Cheers.
They will most likely be seen as "the token LGBT character" no matter what. People who aren't exactly well-intentioned will certainly push that narrative. I'm guessing their "argument" will be that there's only one LGBT character, so obviously they're just a token character. And if there's more than one, well, that's just "shoving propaganda* down our throats".
*Substitute for "wokeness", "politics", "political agenda", "cultural Marxism", and whatever other meaningless buzzword they use to mean "people who aren't like me".
Well considering I'm both bi and trans, is it not fair for me to not want a character that is a stereotype? I've seen on other media how a lot of people, specially trans people, get characterized, and a lot of the time, it's overexaggerated. Same goes for gay men and lesbians.
Religion is what conflicts me about this, but I think I've made peace with it and found my own path.
I know a very good woman - she's my GAD therapist, actually - who is a very committed Catholic. She's highly intelligent, introspective and open-minded. We've had a lot of discussions about life and any number of deeper subjects. I've asked her how she feels about gay marriage. She said that, in accordance with her own religion, it's not something that she personally approves of or would take part in. But, she also said, she understands that everyone is different and that her own personal feelings about something shouldn't hold someone else's feelings on the matter hostage. She waved it off by saying "let people marry whomever they want, as long as they understand that I'm going to stick with my husband".
If I'm being honest it's mostly the adults. One of my besties at college is Christian and when I told her someone asked me out she literally screamed in excitement lmao
My philosophy has always been pretty simple. I've screwed up enough times that I've no room to judge anyone else, even if my religion says its wrong.
Besides, considering how much ######### gets thrown at the LGBTQ community, I've just got to support and love them all the more, to make up for it :)
If one of my buddies said they asked someone out, I may not scream per say, but I would be very excited and happy for them.
This is a controversial topic but I personally agree, homosexuality is not a choice. Again, I've known several and am still friends with / related to several who are, and I feel that anyone who's spent any time with someone who isn't straight can pretty easily understand that it's an inherent feeling, not a choice that they made after waking up one day.
I related it to something like race / ethnicity, which is something else that a person can't change. I use the Doctor in this game, he's black (or at least African-American). I like the character a lot, I think that he's one of the more interesting characters in the game. As mentioned my favorite games in the GTA series heavily (or exclusively) required me to play as a young black man. I didn't think anything of it because the game was good. It's not as if I didn't notice - there are obvious cultural and ethnic differences - I just didn't care, and when I say I didn't care what I mean is "it did nothing to worsen my experience".
To that extent, as a straight male maybe it IS difficult to understand why some people who are not feel that a game or film (or what have you) isn't complete until someone more like themselves is included. To me it's not about representation or inclusion, I have nothing wrong with any of that. I just don't like modern society's highly politicized atmosphere which fosters the belief that if you DON'T go out of your way to tick all the boxes and include someone who represents all possible types of people, you are in fact a bigot and must make amends. This is painting with a broad brush, but this is also currently the world (at least the country) that I live in. As another example, the actress Ashley Judd once said that she couldn't stand hearing pro-Trump rhetoric at a basketball game (or something) and unironically advocated for the existence of "safe spaces" where people don't have to listen to anyone who feels differently about something than they do. That's the kind of dividing line where freedom of speech becomes an evil, the ability to have different opinions seen as something negative. One side wants to determine what's best for everyone. THAT is what I don't agree with. Not inclusion, not diversity, but those who feel that anyone who opposes such things are bad, wrong, intolerant, bigoted, evil, etc.
I'm not saying that this was the prevailing attitude of the thread before I made my comment. That said, my comment was informed by having had many negative experiences with other people, away from this forum, who feel that "tolerance" and "inclusion" is something that must be forced in all walks of life, and if someone dares to find that attitude uncomfortable, then that person is inherently, morally "wrong". That is the slippery slope that makes me uncomfortable, and was exemplified, in my opinion, by my having been called a bigot for trying to express this viewpoint.
TL;DR: I have a hyper-conservative friend who thinks that homosexuality is a sin that should be cured by shock therapy. I have gay relatives who live happier, more productive, more positive lives than this other guy could ever hope to achieve. My point? They've all lived their own individual lives, they've all had their own individual experiences, They all have the right to believe what they do, based on a set of morals and ethics that, for various reasons, feel right to THEM. I have no problem with them all existing. It's when one tries to force those morals and ethics on others, to make others think the way that they do lest they be shamed for not doing so, that is a slippery slope that I find uncomfortable. That is basically all I was trying to say.
Bottom line, if BHVR creates a flamboyantly gay trans character (just as a hypothetical example), so be it. I'll still play the game. If they don't, so be it, I'll still play the game. I don't hold it against people for wanting to see someone close to themselves represented in their chosen form of media, I just don't share the opinion that it's a necessity for enjoying said media. If a LBQT game is a lot of fun, I'll still play it. But my moral compass doesn't have to be everyone else's.
To be fair they will never do a flamboyant queer character because that is the definition of stereotyping which is what they are trying to avoid for the character.
I can totally see Ace as a dragqueen tho, the dang silverfox 🤪
I know a very good woman - she's my GAD therapist, actually - who is a very committed Catholic. She's highly intelligent, introspective and open-minded. We've had a lot of discussions about life and any number of deeper subjects. I've asked her how she feels about gay marriage. She said that, in accordance with her own religion, it's not something that she personally approves of or would take part in. But, she also said, she understands that everyone is different and that her own personal feelings about something shouldn't hold someone else's feelings on the matter hostage. She waved it off by saying "let people marry whomever they want, as long as they understand that I'm going to stick with my husband".
It's a healthy attitude.
That's pretty much what I follow, except I try to be a little more supportive.
My grandparents are very devout Catholics and they are both that way as well.
Well just some friendly advice: you should refrain calling people slurs or thinking they are terrible for thinking a certain way. Different cultures breed different values and morals. Trying to force a way of thinking on someone has been attempted in the past...and even many nazis believed they were morally right at the time. It's a dangerous way of thinking and I hate to see anyone go down that path. Also before you say anything, no, I wasn't talking about what you said to me. Just some advice from someone who would see you be a good person. Cheers.
Unfortunately I pride myself on being an awful person so-
Then don’t post in an open forum but go into some form of private messaging.
i am fairly certain Karu had no problem with my statement here and this is not a dialogue. If you have a problem with that you can just leave the discussion. I won’t leave.
To be fair they will never do a flamboyant queer character because that is the definition of stereotyping which is what they are trying to avoid for the character.
I can totally see Ace as a dragqueen tho, the dang silverfox 🤪
To be perfectly honest I find the John Waters type of gay to be the coolest kind. My mom's best friend Raoul used to call everyone honey, including myself. I was exposed to gay people at a relatively young age, I thought they were fun people. Once I was at his house visiting his (straight) brother and Raoul took a phone call. As I sat on the couch Raoul made it very obvious that he was speaking to both me AND the caller when he said "oh, my friend's son Mike is here visiting. Yep, I'm gonna marry him one day". I laughed. What could I do? It was funny.
That said, though it's a stereotype fully embraced by some, it IS still a stereotype, so you're probably right.
Asking for LGBTQ+ representation in a game that already has multiple heterosexual relationships mentioned is only asking for equal treatment.
so stop with your labeling. It’s not the same as asking for Muslim rep because we have no inclusions of any religious chars at all (except maybe Plague. But that’s not an actual religion of the real world. And the devs have already stated they don’t want to add ‚real‘ religion)
if you actually don’t care you wouldn’t care. But you are heavily against it while you don’t seem to have a problem with the already included heterosexual relations.
But that guy has a point, BHVR as a company stated they support LGBTQ+. They will release content related to that, when it's ready and people trying to dictate and enforce it is the wrong approach. IMO the best thing Devs could do is release such chapter without too much hype behind it and treat it as a normal thing, because it is normal after all. I believe this way people would adapt way much faster, rather than saying "HEY GUYS WE'RE ADDING GAY CHARACTER TO THE GAME, OKAY?".
This videogame has multiple mentioned heterosexual relationships mentioned in the lore as well as plenty of other stuff that’s not relevant for the gameplay.
also it’s definitely horror themed and the horror genre was always heavily influenced by sexual topics.
also the devs have already confirmed they want to be inclusive and have LGBTQ+ representation in their game.
To be fair they will never do a flamboyant queer character because that is the definition of stereotyping which is what they are trying to avoid for the character.
I can totally see Ace as a dragqueen tho, the dang silverfox 🤪
I don’t know, I’d like to think it’s just the way people are. I own my feminine side and my masculine side. I’m also quite capable of acknowledging that there is also gay people that are only feminine or masculine.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with adding a specific personality trait.
Whichever way they choose to bring a lgbtq character, we all know it isn’t going to encompass every single gay person out there, but the representation will still be acknowledged.
But that guy has a point, BHVR as a company stated they support LGBTQ+. They will release content related to that, when it's ready and people trying to dictate and enforce it is the wrong approach. IMO the best thing Devs could do is release such chapter without too much hype behind it and treat it as a normal thing, because it is normal after all. I believe this way people would adapt way much faster, rather than saying "HEY GUYS WE'RE ADDING GAY CHARACTER TO THE GAME, OKAY?".
I completely agree.
don’t make a fuzz out of it. Just treat LGBTQ+ the same as they have treated heterosexual relationships before. Don’t use a char being LGBTQ+ as advertisement.
if they do however, I don’t care as much as i didn’t care about their KPop marketing or whatever, but I can see why that kind of approach is being seen as tasteless by others.
That's pretty much what I follow, except I try to be a little more supportive.
My grandparents are very devout Catholics and they are both that way as well.
I almost died at a few days old, and my mom developed a staunch belief in God (I was saved by a Jewish doctor, so you could say that I learned to see people as basically just "people" at a very young age. That's why I consider what my understanding of "identity politics" to be offensive. I think that differences should be acknowledged, but not weaponized, and too many people out there these days are doing just that). Anyway on the other hand my dad had horribly abusive parents who used religion as an excuse to horribly mistreat him. For that reason I've always had kind of a middle ground position on a lot of things, including religion. Again I'm agnostic, and probably always will be. To me (to ME), trying to understand the existence or intentions of God are like an ant trying to understand the existence or intentions of the internet. We're just not equipped for it.
Again though that's just my own philosophy. That's all I'll really say about it though, I told the mods that I agree with the stance of "no politics, no religion" and don't want to walk back on that.
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Comments
Who cares about a gay character in a game bro? People have too much free time nowadays
Except this isn't the case at all unfortunately. Frank and Julie, for one, as their entire tome was about it, but then also Nurse, David, and Felix in their own lore to a much lesser extent.
Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation.
Good to meet you Karu. I respect that you're passionate about what you believe in. That's a good thing. I am too. When two passionate people don't necessarily see things exactly the same way they can often get started off on the wrong foot, which is a shame.
And yep, you're free to call me Mike. It's ma name. The "Rat guy" part came from the fact that I used to bring my domesticated rats to a local park and people got to know me as "the rat guy".
Feel free to disregard the tacky shirt, it was my "at the park with rats crawling on me" shirt.
To be fair, I don't think anyone liked the Frank and Julie tome.
Which is all the more reason it should never be repeated. For lgbtq+ relationships or not. That... Mistake, let's say, can perish.
Some people have already said it, but sexuality and race are not really comparable to religion and political opinions because the latter are (mostly) a choice, the former is not. (Yui's and Jane's lore does have political undertones though.)
Also I think there is a difference in wanting super specific characters and wanting a diverse cast. Obviously super specific is hard: There have been discussions about characters from a specific country and while there is nothing wrong with making a suggestion, the Devs obviously can't include all 194 countries of the world. But a diverse cast is a different story, it's about having many characters from many different backgrounds so that there is a higher chance that different people will feel represented. And Behaviour is already doing it, the characters are not just one race and one gender. Does it identy the characters? I think that depends on the player, some might play a character just because the like the look, some because they like the backstory and some because they identify with the character. And I think that would be the same with sexuality, for some it would be the most important thing about the character and some wouldn't care.
On the topic of sexualtity the Devs have only mentioned heterosexuell relationship in the lore though and this is not a 194 countries situation, it is just heterosexuell or not heterosexuell, so it shouldn't be to hard to include it. And as you probably know, the Devs have already said, that they want to do it. And as @GoodBoyKaru has mentioned it's not like we expect more than a few sentences in the lore. And about the topic of a token character: There is always a possibility of doing something wrong so if you follow the argument "don't do it, it might turn out bad" than nothing would ever be done.
On the identify politics thing: I'm straight, so I have no personal interest and an LGBTQ character would not make me feel more represented, I think it is just a question of fairness.
Me, trying to eat healthy
My body:
Thank you. I have various philosophies on most things, I've been around long enough and have spoken to enough people to have learned that looking at both sides and playing devil's advocate is a useful way of having a discussion. I enjoy objectivity. Go back and look at any of my posts here and you'll see that I don't take the survivor's side (even though that's my main) than I take the killer's side. As for the gay thing, I wish that the trans person I befriended from this site several weeks ago would be able to pop in and make it clear that I'm anything but a homophobe (I won't mention this person's name as outing someone without their consent is a horrible thing to do).
I understand that the person who called me a homophobe doesn't know me. But I felt that they were basing their conclusion off of very little - they either deliberately or unintentionally ignored the greater point that I was trying to make and chose instead to feel that I was attacking them, or perhaps someone they care about, for essentially no reason. They were of course welcome to think that, even if it would have been incorrect. But to label me a bigot for having a difference of opinion is, to me, just about the lowest thing that you can call someone - and it was doubly offensive since it isn't even correct. Again, they don't KNOW that, but that's a good reason why they shouldn't have said it.
Who cares about what other people care about? seems like you have too much free time.
if you don’t care, carry on. This discussion is not directed towards you. That’s really not a big deal.
No, I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not the person who said it.
Omg that's so fetch
Pretty arrogant of you to think you know anything about me don't you think? You throw around trash terms like "homophobic" because it's a terrible way to say someone else's way of thinking is irrelevant and should be ignored. A bit hateful, arrogant and discriminatory wouldn't you say? Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over.
This made me laugh really hard bc you know its true.
👀 not really but thanks for taking the bullet I guess. I just skim read most the walls.
I dont beleive in what you are saying because that way of thinking just leads to peoples opinions being dismissed and causing an echo chamber.
Everyone experiences different things, im sure I have had a completley different life to someone of the same sexual orentation and race, so whos opinon should be held more higher?🤷♂️
True. However, people have to realise that they don't understand why LGBT+ people want representation. How could they? They arent the ones ostracised.
I don't think that's entirely true.
I think most of us have been ostracized before. We've felt the loneliness and despair associated with it. People might not be able to get it but they can understand.
It's like someone dealing with the loss of a close relative. You understand how it feels to lose someone like that, even if you don't know precisely how they feel in that situation.
Well i bit the bullet so, ######### it, might as well get shot.
"Everyone experiences different things, im sure I have had a completley different life to someone of the same sexual orentation and race, so whos opinon should be held more higher?"
Out of mine and yours? Neither. We're both gay and so even though we've had different experiences they've allowed us to form our own conclusion on the subject of representation. If, say, it was a trans woman or a cis woman on the subject of representation, or a gay man and a straight man in the subject of gay rights, then imo you should take the opinion of the trans woman/gay man over the cis woman/straight man. They've had to experience the struggles so their opinions should be higher.
But, say, in terms of your fears of it being an echo chamber, yeah I can see where that'd come from. But imho every gay person should have their opinion on gay representation taken with equal value (unless they're literally saying every straight man should be burnt in carpet as retribution for what their ancestors did, in which case lock them up ASAP), with straight people still having an opinion and being allowed to have an opinion, but having said opinion be held with less value (not no value, less value) than that of a gay man.
To use an example earlier, it's like a trained fitness coach vs a coach potato on the subject of healthy living.
GoodBoyKaru didn’t call you directly a homophobe though. Learn to read.
I can’t believe they don’t realise that on Monday - Sunday we aren’t homophobic. I mean, that’s just, like, the rules of being a decent human being.
That's, not what I was getting at. At all. In the slightest. I didn't call you explicitly homophobic nor do I believe you to be.
"Just, have lgbtq+ relationships represented in the same degree and most people are happy. If you're not happy with that one you're either far too demanding or homophobic, cause we just want equality in representation."
I was saying that if you aren't happy with equality in representation with straight people, you're either really entitled or homophobic. I didn't say you specifically were, I was talking to a group of people who may or may not exist in this thread and may or may not read it.
I'm sorry if my point was unclear, just know I didn't mean to insult you in any way.
"Maybe I'm just tired of reading the same boring stuff over and over."
So am I, trust me. Coming up to 3 years and I see the same discussions every day, at leas the Forum Representation Wars™ are only like 4 times a year instead of daily.
But know what I'm also tired of? Not being represented in lots of media and having people decide what I can and cannot do in private behind closed doors with complete consent.
Edit: be it legally (not me) or be it just through others around me deciding it's right or wrong (applies to me) but having no actual sway.
It's extremely rude to but into other people's conversations. Please go bother someone else as I haven't interest in conversing with you.
When it comes?
I'd rather have a well thought character be LGBT than a rushed one just to be the token LGBT character.
I mean, one of us is even too gay to function. That's, like, the rules of feminism
I am a bit curious about that last paragraph, by any chance do you not live in a western country?
What facts could you possibly use to support being such a bigot?
Change my mind about being gay, cause rn my boyfriend exists and he makes me happier than I've been with any woman, so
They will most likely be seen as "the token LGBT character" no matter what. People who aren't exactly well-intentioned will certainly push that narrative. I'm guessing their "argument" will be that there's only one LGBT character, so obviously they're just a token character. And if there's more than one, well, that's just "shoving propaganda* down our throats".
*Substitute for "wokeness", "politics", "political agenda", "cultural Marxism", and whatever other meaningless buzzword they use to mean "people who aren't like me".
No, I do. Europe, to be precise.
For me, it's more the social stigma. Jfc people are absurd when it comes to "OH MY GOD YOU'RE ######### A GUY" when if it was a girl they'd be fine with it.
I'm well aware, though, that it's perfectly legal where I live. Under the law there's no issues.
Many others do not have this luxury and they need representation in their culture even more than I do.
That was so pure omg.🥲 Go you👏👏
Also just saying if it's easier you can call me Karu if you want ^^
Honestly, in the US, even where I live out in the country, people don't care.
You might get some jokes, or some questions, but nobody ever really comments negatively on it.
Hell, even at my private Christian school (it was the best school in the area and my parents had grown up poor so they wanted the best) half of the football team was openly gay for each other and nobody really said anything about it.
A shame it isn't the same where you live.
This is a controversial topic but I personally agree, homosexuality is not a choice. Again, I've known several and am still friends with / related to several who are, and I feel that anyone who's spent any time with someone who isn't straight can pretty easily understand that it's an inherent feeling, not a choice that they made after waking up one day.
I related it to something like race / ethnicity, which is something else that a person can't change. I use the Doctor in this game, he's black (or at least African-American). I like the character a lot, I think that he's one of the more interesting characters in the game. As mentioned my favorite games in the GTA series heavily (or exclusively) required me to play as a young black man. I didn't think anything of it because the game was good. It's not as if I didn't notice - there are obvious cultural and ethnic differences - I just didn't care, and when I say I didn't care what I mean is "it did nothing to worsen my experience".
To that extent, as a straight male maybe it IS difficult to understand why some people who are not feel that a game or film (or what have you) isn't complete until someone more like themselves is included. To me it's not about representation or inclusion, I have nothing wrong with any of that. I just don't like modern society's highly politicized atmosphere which fosters the belief that if you DON'T go out of your way to tick all the boxes and include someone who represents all possible types of people, you are in fact a bigot and must make amends. This is painting with a broad brush, but this is also currently the world (at least the country) that I live in. As another example, the actress Ashley Judd once said that she couldn't stand hearing pro-Trump rhetoric at a basketball game (or something) and unironically advocated for the existence of "safe spaces" where people don't have to listen to anyone who feels differently about something than they do. That's the kind of dividing line where freedom of speech becomes an evil, the ability to have different opinions seen as something negative. One side wants to determine what's best for everyone. THAT is what I don't agree with. Not inclusion, not diversity, but those who feel that anyone who opposes such things are bad, wrong, intolerant, bigoted, evil, etc.
I'm not saying that this was the prevailing attitude of the thread before I made my comment. That said, my comment was informed by having had many negative experiences with other people, away from this forum, who feel that "tolerance" and "inclusion" is something that must be forced in all walks of life, and if someone dares to find that attitude uncomfortable, then that person is inherently, morally "wrong". That is the slippery slope that makes me uncomfortable, and was exemplified, in my opinion, by my having been called a bigot for trying to express this viewpoint.
TL;DR: I have a hyper-conservative friend who thinks that homosexuality is a sin that should be cured by shock therapy. I have gay relatives who live happier, more productive, more positive lives than this other guy could ever hope to achieve. My point? They've all lived their own individual lives, they've all had their own individual experiences, They all have the right to believe what they do, based on a set of morals and ethics that, for various reasons, feel right to THEM. I have no problem with them all existing. It's when one tries to force those morals and ethics on others, to make others think the way that they do lest they be shamed for not doing so, that is a slippery slope that I find uncomfortable. That is basically all I was trying to say.
Bottom line, if BHVR creates a flamboyantly gay trans character (just as a hypothetical example), so be it. I'll still play the game. If they don't, so be it, I'll still play the game. I don't hold it against people for wanting to see someone close to themselves represented in their chosen form of media, I just don't share the opinion that it's a necessity for enjoying said media. If a LBQT game is a lot of fun, I'll still play it. But my moral compass doesn't have to be everyone else's.
Then don’t post in an open forum but go into some form of private messaging.
i am fairly certain Karu had no problem with my statement here and this is not a dialogue. If you have a problem with that you can just leave the discussion. I won’t leave.
If I'm being honest it's mostly the adults. One of my besties at college is Christian and when I told her someone asked me out she literally screamed in excitement lmao
Well just some friendly advice: you should refrain calling people slurs or thinking they are terrible for thinking a certain way. Different cultures breed different values and morals. Trying to force a way of thinking on someone has been attempted in the past...and even many nazis believed they were morally right at the time. It's a dangerous way of thinking and I hate to see anyone go down that path. Also before you say anything, no, I wasn't talking about what you said to me. Just some advice from someone who would see you be a good person. Cheers.
I am officially blessed 😇
Well considering I'm both bi and trans, is it not fair for me to not want a character that is a stereotype? I've seen on other media how a lot of people, specially trans people, get characterized, and a lot of the time, it's overexaggerated. Same goes for gay men and lesbians.
I know a very good woman - she's my GAD therapist, actually - who is a very committed Catholic. She's highly intelligent, introspective and open-minded. We've had a lot of discussions about life and any number of deeper subjects. I've asked her how she feels about gay marriage. She said that, in accordance with her own religion, it's not something that she personally approves of or would take part in. But, she also said, she understands that everyone is different and that her own personal feelings about something shouldn't hold someone else's feelings on the matter hostage. She waved it off by saying "let people marry whomever they want, as long as they understand that I'm going to stick with my husband".
It's a healthy attitude.
My philosophy has always been pretty simple. I've screwed up enough times that I've no room to judge anyone else, even if my religion says its wrong.
Besides, considering how much ######### gets thrown at the LGBTQ community, I've just got to support and love them all the more, to make up for it :)
If one of my buddies said they asked someone out, I may not scream per say, but I would be very excited and happy for them.
To be fair they will never do a flamboyant queer character because that is the definition of stereotyping which is what they are trying to avoid for the character.
I can totally see Ace as a dragqueen tho, the dang silverfox 🤪
That's pretty much what I follow, except I try to be a little more supportive.
My grandparents are very devout Catholics and they are both that way as well.
Unfortunately I pride myself on being an awful person so-
(semi-joking here)
Can confirm I do not
To be perfectly honest I find the John Waters type of gay to be the coolest kind. My mom's best friend Raoul used to call everyone honey, including myself. I was exposed to gay people at a relatively young age, I thought they were fun people. Once I was at his house visiting his (straight) brother and Raoul took a phone call. As I sat on the couch Raoul made it very obvious that he was speaking to both me AND the caller when he said "oh, my friend's son Mike is here visiting. Yep, I'm gonna marry him one day". I laughed. What could I do? It was funny.
That said, though it's a stereotype fully embraced by some, it IS still a stereotype, so you're probably right.
But that guy has a point, BHVR as a company stated they support LGBTQ+. They will release content related to that, when it's ready and people trying to dictate and enforce it is the wrong approach. IMO the best thing Devs could do is release such chapter without too much hype behind it and treat it as a normal thing, because it is normal after all. I believe this way people would adapt way much faster, rather than saying "HEY GUYS WE'RE ADDING GAY CHARACTER TO THE GAME, OKAY?".
Nurse has a husband. In other news, the sun comes up.
Was not Yun LGBTQ representation?
@Itooshie
I don’t know, I’d like to think it’s just the way people are. I own my feminine side and my masculine side. I’m also quite capable of acknowledging that there is also gay people that are only feminine or masculine.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with adding a specific personality trait.
Whichever way they choose to bring a lgbtq character, we all know it isn’t going to encompass every single gay person out there, but the representation will still be acknowledged.
Nope.
I completely agree.
don’t make a fuzz out of it. Just treat LGBTQ+ the same as they have treated heterosexual relationships before. Don’t use a char being LGBTQ+ as advertisement.
if they do however, I don’t care as much as i didn’t care about their KPop marketing or whatever, but I can see why that kind of approach is being seen as tasteless by others.
I almost died at a few days old, and my mom developed a staunch belief in God (I was saved by a Jewish doctor, so you could say that I learned to see people as basically just "people" at a very young age. That's why I consider what my understanding of "identity politics" to be offensive. I think that differences should be acknowledged, but not weaponized, and too many people out there these days are doing just that). Anyway on the other hand my dad had horribly abusive parents who used religion as an excuse to horribly mistreat him. For that reason I've always had kind of a middle ground position on a lot of things, including religion. Again I'm agnostic, and probably always will be. To me (to ME), trying to understand the existence or intentions of God are like an ant trying to understand the existence or intentions of the internet. We're just not equipped for it.
Again though that's just my own philosophy. That's all I'll really say about it though, I told the mods that I agree with the stance of "no politics, no religion" and don't want to walk back on that.
I knew her trans, my fault then.