Another Cosmic Tropical Fruit Discussion
I have seen a lot of people just disregard what this guy says because he only ever plays killer and only ever talks about how bad the game is towards killers. While yes a lot of what he talks about is bias, a good portion isn’t. Take his latest video which I can’t link because reasons that are obvious. He discusses why map changes won’t fix the fact that survivors have so many 2nd chances that they can still rip away any good progress the killer makes during the game, especially when in a group.
To avoid a wall of text, swapping items just before the game starts doesn’t allow the killer to prepare their load out, already before the game has started the killer can feel helpless, stressed, and knows they could be bullied this game, removing 90% of the fun they could have had.
As far as in game, I’ll do a quick example. Did you finally down someone? Whoops they are in a open field so you pick them up and get blinded. Try to find the dude with a flashlight, sure you can even down them, but the guy you downed before gets up with unbreakable.
These situations where any play you make the survivors will have an answer for, is the reason your queue times are long and the reason your matchmaking is screwed up with ranking.
Killers are leaving and map changes won’t fix the issues I stated. Or I should say repeated by that cosmic tropical fruit.
Either way, you don’t have to believe me or tropical fruit, but in my experience and a lot of killers I watch and friends I have seen play. They usual all end up quitting killer because it is too stressful to play the higher rank you get and the more SWF bully teams you encounter, and those games are the only ones you remember because regular gameplay has gotten so dull over the past 4 years. Every game is either un memorable, or stressful.
But that is what DbD wants, it was you to “feel emotions” like in that Mcote interview with King.
Comments
I personally don't watch his videos anymore. Same with tydetyme. Every other word is complete bashing of the game and the Devs and how much they dont like or hate the game.
Theres a difference between criticism and all out hate. Whether intentional or not, streamer you refer to comes off as bitter and just plain hateful. Even his posts on here are like that.
If you hate it that much, just stop playing.
I knew someone would just disregard them. You didn’t even look at the post.
And I did quit since February, but I want to come back. The game has potential to be fun again but it’s people who are complacent with these issues and survivors being the loudest voice with the largest wallets preventing those changes from being done.
Having read your post, it seems to be saying "Survivors should not be able to help themselves" You mention perks, items and addons that make killer life difficult. These are of course their intended use, as are killer addons/perks and powers. You made a single example, so I can guess that your list of complaints about perks/items/addons and tactics is quite a bit longer.
So. Say that you are offered exactly what you want. All 'second chance' perks removed. The ability for survivors to save their friends or themselves from being carried or slugged removed, or perhaps nerfed to the point where it has no 'stressful impact' upon killers. What then, will keep survivors in a game where half of their utilities are removed with no offered compensation for the fact.
I'm interested in your solution to this. Because you see, its not as easy as saying "Just remove these things". Balance does not mean "Better for my side only" and I feel BHVR would encounter some serious financial issues when survivors realise they have been seriously crippled with no way to balance it out. That is the issue i have with such posts like this. You want something for your side and offer no sensible balancing out for the other side.
The message i keep hearing here is "I'm not the power role, so this must go"
Perhaps that is not your intended statement, but it's how these posts end up sounding. And no, nothing in my post history suggests I'm an 'entitled survivor main' I play both sides, I'm happy for healthy balance changes, but I am also immediately suspicious of 'balance this' posts that don't offer balance for both sides. Just their own, and do so with a tone that suggests the other side is being unfair for simply using the tools the game have provided them.
But if they stop they cannot make any money with the content.
:(
Astral Milknut is pretty agressive, and is kinda a douchebag towards other players. He shits on a popular streamer in his latest video and has a pinned comment that outright insults her. While I agree with some of his arguments, particularly on his points about stress and 2nd chance perks, I find it hard to respect someone that acts like that. He's not arguing about anything I haven't heard before either, so there's no point in using him as a reference or source of information. There are better people for that, like FunGoose, Otzdarva, or even TrU3ta1ent to name a few.
There hasn't been a time in the history of DBD where killer has been easier, I'm sorry but these players who have devoted their entire DBD time into Killer and still can't compete at any level should just move on, they've never been good and never will.
I'm often regarded as a "survivor main" but I played two and a half hours of killer at rank 5 (I haven't played dbd since the reset) and not a single game of mine was below a 3K, I'm sorry but this game is only going to be easier come the next patch and anyone who is still complaining about dbd will simply never be good at it.
People don't disregard what this guy says because he only ever plays killer, people disregard what this guy says because he is a pretty bad killer even though he only plays killer.
Complaining about flashlights is nonsense. First of all, it is one of the few really skill based action a survivor can do (positioning and timing must be correct in order to succeed). Second, fl saves are either extremely situational or it means one guy doing NOTHING the entire trial running around you trying to fl save and he probably will fail. How many times do you lose a down because of fl saves? If it is more than once in 100 trials, it is your fault, you are doing something wrong.
About swapping items. If it hurts you so bad, use Franklin's. Easy like that. It hurts survivors too when they get their best flashlight and addons, burn the white ward and the killer is using Franklin's. So, stop complaining about another bs.
None of his complains are worth, what he should totally complain about is the rank system. He wouldn't get so stressed if he was playing with people as skilled as him around rank 15 or something like that...
The actual topic of discussion isn't the difficulty of playing either role, but rather how it "feels" to play one role in particular.
"players who...can't compete at any level..." is more of a personal attack and a disregard for the overall topic of discussion. But I really don't expect much else from you ;)
100% of my matches on Sunday were 3k w/hatch or 4k but "winning" isn't the topic "how it feels to play the game" is.
You already answered the question.
People keep talking about balance and how specific things affect their experience. What they're not considering is that balance should be applied in order to improve the experience for everyone.
The things people talk about feel unfair and take away from the positive experience of the game. This is what I'd like to see change.
I'm sure there are many things that you find frustrating in the game, and with one or two tweaks could make that thing less frustrating and more fun to go against or deal with without punishing the other side.
People like to disregard what I say and put words in my mouth, but my goal is a more fun experience for both sides through balance.
Whether that's what you hear from my posts and videos or not, is not within my control.
Hes just not a good killer he would rather complain instead of actually trying to get better at the game
I'm aware, but I wanted the OP's opinion on what he would plan to do should all the things he finds distasteful be removed. The question isn't about whether balance should be applied to both sides, it should. But when someone is complaining about a VAST array of the other sides utilities, which this post is, and not offering a counter balance should they all be removed, i'm interested in seeing what they think might happen if all those stressful problems were just to suddenly disappear.
What do they realistically think will happen to the playerbase as a whole?
As for things i find frustrating in the game? I accept them as part of the game and adapt. I don't preach that my way is the right way, but neither will i wail and gnash my teeth because I got face camped or DS'd at the gate. I accept that this is the game and I am here to play it. Not prune it to my liking. Again, a personal opinion.
I don't tend to watch many DBD streamers anymore, it all comes down to eventually some bias showing, how can it not. Personally I'll stick to watching streamers who simply have fun playing the game.
And for the record, I would say exactly the same to a survivor sided post complaining about a large array of killer utilities. Again, I'm all for balance, but a lot of people simply think its a case of "Remove this, I don't like it"
It's funny how he mentions that Survivor Streamers have stress free matches while they chat with their community, when this is also the case for killer streamers.
Heck, there are Killer Streamers that even play some strange card games during their matches, cards that tell them what to do (even if it's actually detrimental to their gameplay) and guess what, they still get their kills.
Ah yes stating my opinion on you means i find your opinion valid. your very hypocritical, Saying that becasue i name called i agree with your opinion but im just defensive but in your reply to senzuduck you also "name called".
the thing is, your idea of a better feeling killer experience is removing everything survivors have to survive so you can steam roll them, sorry that your ego is hurt by people escaping every now and again, and I'm sorry that you find a video game stressful, hopefully you'll move on and find something else to play.
In your latest video you whine on about second changes etc but you kill them all anyway, despite it being a pretty good team with counters to your killer you still killed them all, how easy would that match have been had they not had flashlights, not had unbreakable ds etc, you cry about second chance perks and what, they got to use unbreakable like twice? lmao, you just want effortless wins, like an entitled killer.
Generally I agree with your points. It is possible to become an effective killer, regardless of the various nerfs, buffs and redesigns going on.
Back when I still played this game I found that having better situational awareness and picking out subtle details helped me more as killer than just strong character mechanics and perks. Understanding how others try and evade and outthinking them would result in good kill rates and blood points.
I wasn't around for the beginning of DBD when it was very hard for killers but I'll take it as fact that it was not easy for them back then.
What has changed in more recent months is how effective SWF strategies and meta perks have become. It seems like some survivor mains have it down to a science, where as newer killers will have a harder time closing the gap. And as survivor game strategy becomes stronger the gap widens.
A solution might come down to better matchmaking, but the trade off might be unacceptable lobby wait times.
PSA: This is what Willful blindness looks like.
No where did I say I wanted easy matches, I'm interested to see where I explicitly state that. Again, the outcome of the match is irrelevant (in-which I didn't kill everyone) the experience of the match as a whole is the topic of discussion.
Good point, it's hard to pinpoint the problems with the game and even harder to improve your gameplay until there is a working ranking and matchmaking system.
Survivors are becoming stronger? How exactly?
So please, tell me what you want in the match that doesn't just make it easier for you, I'll wait.
All you ever do is complain about second chance perks etc, what do you want doing with these, do you want them nerfed? Because oddly enough that makes the game easier for you, not sure if you knew that but nerfs make the game easier for the opposite side.
I'm sorry you've devoted this much time to killer and still get upset at the fact you have to earn your wins.
You essentially killed everyone, you had everyone down, someone got lucky and crawled to the hatch.
Honestly he does have one or too valid points once in a while, but he burns his reputation by linking them to abstract ideas with no evidence or thought. Yes second chance perks are stressful, but how strong are they really when you can avoid them more than 50% of the time? Yes the game can be stressful as killer, but how is it more stressful than survivor and how does stress relate to good game design and balance? I have many questions to ask him but unfortunately he dodges confrontation with obscure statements, memes, and other makeshift defenses. I hope to have a long thought-out discussion with him in the future so we can establish our positions and opinions, and justify them objectively with evidence and reason.
I don't know what vid you mean and I probably won't watch it anyway.
Flashlights are easiest to counter if you expect them.... you always can.
Meta survivor perks are too powerful and give too many 2nd chances to good survivors. That does not apply to survivors that aren't good at the game.
Killers also have bullshit things that need addressing but I doubt both sides will ever be adjusted enough.
Your first question is loaded, but I'll pretend that you actually want a real discussion.
Easier or more difficult isn't the focus. How cheap some mechanics feel is the focus. Try to remember that in your response.
In the video example Unbreakable creates a feeling of unfair loss for the killer, I provide an other example from another game if you don't understand. The survivor was downed through effort on the part of the killer and unbreakable can remove that progress with no effort on the survivor's side. The risk being that the killer may just pick them up immediately and negate the perk, but the focus is when the perk works in a similar manner that many NoED discussions take. (Just do totems) isn't the answer to the issue. How it makes a survivor player feel is.
That feeling of unfair loss is the focus.
The hope in many of my videos is that that feeling can be addressed by the dev team in one way or another. If a change would come to the perk (it won't) the hope is that it would be a fair change that feels good for both sides. Perhaps more effort put into the perk on behalf of the survivor to compensate the effort a killer put into downing the survivor in the first place.
The feelings of frustration that many killer players feel drives them to quit the game as evidenced by many of the comments on the video. There are fewer apparent focuses of player frustrations on the survivor side which leads to the conclusion that there are more on the killer side due to the myriad of perks and mechanics that create this feeling.
"I'm sorry you've devoted this much time to killer and still get upset at the fact you have to earn your wins."
And I'm sorry that you lack the capacity for empathy and succumb to the willful blindness that prevent you from coming to a conclusion that doesn't include vague attempts at personal insults.
As with many, many times before, the focus is not the outcome of the match, but how it feels to play the entirety of the match.
If you don't understand, no amount of explanation will help.
Good luck.
1) The strength of the perks isn't the question. How they create a negative game experience through how "cheap" they can feel is when they do work.
2) The time crunch is on the killer which initially creates more stress on the killer rather than the survivor.
3) Good stress can make a game better (Dark Souls) Bad stress drives people from playing the game. (DbD) I think developers want people to continue playing their game rather than leaving despite what Mcote has said in the past "Play Civ5"
How does a perk feel "cheap" when you control when it activates? I agree with your second statement. Could you point out examples of good and bad stress in video games for me? As of right now, I think good stress could be like the fear of being chased by a powerful being, while bad stress is feeling helpless or harassed.
"The feelings of frustration that many killer players feel drives them to quit the game as evidenced by many of the comments on the video."
People who disagree with you will not watch your videos. So Comments under a Video are no Evidence.
Did I control when Unbreakable activated or did the survivor?
In that exact situation I was forced to leave the survivor on the ground because they were under the pallet. I couldn't pick up the survivor because of a pallet or flashlight save possibility. I spent time making the pick up safe, but thanks to unbreakable I lost the pick up anyway. This is what feels cheap.
Slugging was necessary to prevent immediate flashlight saves or to utilize pop before hooking again.
Good stress in dbd is having a downed survivor under a pallet and knowing one is nearby. Needing to find them to prevent a save.
Bad stress is the downed survivor getting up anyway thanks to a perk with no chance to stop it due to immediate circumstances.
My statement stands true because those who do agree comment so on the video.
The comments on the video are the topic of the statement and as such cannot be denied because someone disagrees. They're there. They exist.
for the sake of discussion, I watched the vid
vtw how dare she play as a “toxic survivor” oh no call the police, but the main issue I have:
“Make survivors lock-in their load outs and let the killer adjust”
im sorry, but this is the most biased thing I’ve heard and will just lead to more moris or “OP” builds like IrI head belt being put on. Not to mention, survivors have no way of knowing what killer it is or what addons they have where killer does have that information
like, be real dude. I know the forums and subreddit have a hate boner for survivor, but this is a bit much
A survivor each only has one Unbreakable. It is a tool and resource to use. Does it put pressure on the killer? Yes. Is it hard to play around at times? Yes. But can you counter it? Certainly. A survivor can't be saved from your grasp unless another survivor is within a certain proximity. To eliminate the chance of a survivor escaping your grasp, you may examine the proximity. You still have full control, you can pick up the survivor whenever you want. But, you also have the option of hunting down nearby survivors to prevent a save. If you fail to eliminate the threat fast enough, then the survivor will have the opportunity to use their resource to eliminate their disadvantage. If you don't take action then the survivor will escape disadvantage without using their resource. It's kind of like how exhaustion perks are, except Unbreakable is stronger and deactivates permanently.
You're forgetting the main point and ignoring the given situation.
I cannot pick up the survivor whenever I want because of the threat of a flashlight save or pallet stun.
But the point is how the mechanic feels cheap and creates negative stress.
This is also not including the possibility of more perks of a similar nature being used. As in this match, the survivor in the topic was using a full loadout of meta second chance(ish) perks.
It feels cheap that a survivor can use their resource to put themselves in an advantageous situation. Similar statements I hear often come from "entitled mains" who despise any advantage the other "side" can receive. I think this stress is only felt as being negative because it is unexpected, you expect to remain in advantage at all times as killer but when survivors get an advantage over you it comes as a shock and your mind rejects the stress reaction. Am I missing something important here?
You're generalizing in order to dilute the core issue, deliberately missing the point.
In this situation it feels cheap that a survivor can get themselves up with unbreakable at no cost even though they've been outpositioned.
I do not expect to be in advantage at all times, but I'd like it to be up to my skill as a player compared to my opponents. It would feel more fair if they successfully drew my attention and performed a heal to bring the survivor up. Having a perk do it for free regardless of my skill feels frustrating.
Going home for the day. Good night.
How is it free if it costs a perk slot? It's like hating when a killer removes all your gen progress with PGTW even though it has limited uses or with Ruin even though it's a breakable totem.
It's free in the sense that you don't have to play well to gain its benefit. Perks like PGTW, Ruin, and Adrenaline are strong, but most people think they're fine because they reward good play. Unbreakable, DS, and NOED reward bad play and are strong, and that is why they are complained about so much. These "free" rewards also have effects when they aren't in play since there is no way to tell who has some of these perks.
You do know Killer is supposed to be the power role, right? Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with Second Chance perks. The issue is that almost all of them synergize super well, EPSECIALLY DS/UB. If they were just reworked to not be so strong combined things would be fine. I read a suggestion once that proposed a "loadout system" similar to COD.
2.5 hours as Killer is laughable. I can pinpoint a precise time Killer was easier. Two of them, actually: Before Ruin getting gutted and before Nurse getting gutted.
Somebody doesn't use youtube much, people who disagree with videos do watch them to give differing opinions. Granted, they aren't as common as poeple that agree with the video, but they are definitely there.
Oh, it's another one of these. Time to move on.. nothing to see here
There is a big difference between being the power role and just fixing things to your liking because they make the game challenging. Some perks might well need looking into. But the list of "This isn't fair" is way too long on both sides.
You count Nurse as all killers? #########?
She's a Killer, therefore it was easier to be a Killer before she was gutted. They never specified as ALL Killers. Either way, that still leaves pre-ruin nerf as a time when Killer was easier
"swapping items just before the game starts doesn’t allow the killer to prepare their load out"
Survivors don't have any opportunity to 'prepare' their load out. I rarely see survivors do this in a match - if it's really all that common for you, run Franklin's.
"Did you finally down someone? Whoops they are in a open field so you pick them up and get blinded. Try to find the dude with a flashlight, sure you can even down them, but the guy you downed before gets up with unbreakable."
Um, if you picked someone up and were blinded, the survivor that was on your shoulder would be free. Not slugged. So unbreakable wouldn't apply here. If you dropped them on purpose to pursue the person trying to flashlight you (the only way unbreakable would apply in this case) then you're an idiot for dropping a perfectly good dying state survivor to go for someone who didn't even accomplish a blind.
If you're going to try and make a case for how Killer is just the worsttttt...at least make it plausible.
I think you misunderstand, I played 2.5 hours as killer yesterday, I've probably played at least a thousand hours as killer, I consistently 3K without breaking a sweat, I never pick and choose my lobbies I always ready to when 4 survivors drop in.
Lmao, nurse didn't make the killer experience easier, how did nurse make playing trapper easier? Oh wait it didn't, nurse is still the best killer if you're actually good at her and didn't rely on her addons, as for ruin, maybe you're right there, but it's a perk I've never used and have always been able to consistently 3/4K without, it was definitely not needed though.
If the survivors don't play good and coordinate, Cosmic's scenario doesn't even happen. I do agree that not knowing who has Unbreakable does leave room for stress and brainless plays.