People Really Think This Game Is Survivor Sided?
Optimal killer versus optimal swf the winner is not always survivor. The outcome of a match is determined entirely based on killer and map at that point. Sure most killers are weak and most maps are strong for survivors but that doesn't mean the game is survivor sided. This mindset is unfounded and outdated. I don't think killer will ever be stronger tbh. 2 escapes for survivors is not a win despite how bad the pipping system is.
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I'm curious if you have actually watched the games in this experiment. I watched all the nurse games, expecting to see some great plays by the survivors, and yet..there was nothing like that. All but like one of the nurse games had nurses that had no business being in red ranks, maybe not even purple. I'll admit, I haven't seen many of the other games, but just going by those nurse games, I wouldn't be able to trust the results of that experiment very much at all.
That isn't to say you're wrong in this topic.
Especially with this ruin change, the devs are going in the absolute wrong direction for balance.
On a large map against equally skilled survivors the killer will have no chance unless their first chase is over as soon as it starts.
Well that's the problem with the emblem system isn't it, it puts potatoes in ranks they don't belong
The problem with your precious stats is an early stat post by dbd showed rank one survivors have a 70% percent escape rate twenty percent higher than even rank two
Keep in mind, when the survivors are really good it makes the killer look worse. Just saying it can skew the perception. Nurse is also one of, if not the hardest to killer to learn/perfect. They also could have been way sweatier with items if they had wanted.
I think the entire idea of winning so and so many games in a row to prove or disprove this point is flawed in the first place. Just giving the response since he specifically asked for it.
"Sure most of the killers are weak" "Most maps are strong for survivors" If the majority of the killers and the majority of the maps favor the survivors would that mean that the survivors have an edge? Therefore making the mindset not so unfounded. In truth I think the survivors have a bit of an advantage overall Its not game breaking but it can be frustrating at times. But the largest advantage for survivors is that swf with communication if the friends have any decent amount of experience they can run circles around a lot of killers. I am well aware that swf is not a guarantee and can be overcome by veteran killers and is not a sure fire win but it is an advantage better than any perk. Another issue is in the Variety of killers each killer has a different play style. Which is why I think the ranking system for killers should have each killer have their own rank rather than it be collective. You get good with one killer your rank increases a bit and you think "I should try out a different killer" only have the rank you gained turn against you in matchmaking as now your are fighting higher ranked survivors than you are ready for with that killer.
They say and I quote "Do not draw any conclusions from these stats as there are many factors that go into them" I.E. too many things are inflating the stats , moris, noed, survivors killing themselves end game, hook suicides, dcs..once you take all that in you realize the stats are massively inflated
Holy crap. I had to play survivor tonight with my wife and it is the absolute worst experience. I despise that role. Every game is either a camp/tunnel fest or a smurf killer wiping out low levels. Sorry, but rank 20 Huntress with all T3 perks does not hit precision shots with axes. Most can barely throw an axe in the general direction of a survivor.
I want to thank survivor mains for putting up with this crop of bs so I can hunt you as Trapper. Speaking of which, wife logged, so I get to play killer again.
Yeah, definitely really good players are able to make lesser skilled players look silly. I watched those games with that in mind. At least for almost all of the nurse games though, it was like watching grandmaster players beat platinum players. They couldn't catch dead hard-less players for minutes at a time.
I think you will get a much better representation of the games balance watching the games against the M1 killers as that represents the majority of killers. For how bad the Nurses looked, the M1 killers look like clowns.
I strongly agree with this. Killers can dominate any team if they are good enough. While survivors chance or escaping is mostly Rng around bad teammates and what killer it is. Don't get me started on addons and perks. moris are stupid op and ruin the game for all the survivors. And before you say keys are bad you have to complete 5 gens to get everybody out 4 to get 3 out and so on which is pretty balanced.
5 gens can be done in a single chase if you coordinate in pre game lobby lmao, hence why toolboxes are coming back into the meta. 131 seconds of pure BING BING BING BING BING
The average chase for good killers last about 40 seconds if i'm correct. So the killer still has time to go to gens after hooking and apply pressure. Plus one survivor will have to unhook which is 2 survivors that are not on gens. Plus the killer probably found another survivor in that time and got them off a gen and downed and hooked them in about 50 secs. Then the killer goes to patrol gens and repeat the cycle. If they are a good killer which in most cases they aren't. Because matchmaking is f**ked and rank 20 killers get rank 1 swf with toolboxes. Same with potato survivor teammates like i said in my other comment. Matchmaking is why the game is mostly unbalanced right now. And the devs have no idea how to fix it because they don't get accurate results on average kill rates and stuff like that. That and also because they dont play their own game lol.
Don't forget the fast vault nerf.
Survivors now take a bit longer to finish a vault than what they used to.
Highly depends on the map as well as what rank. An actual red ranker can easily run the killer for 90-120 seconds, at which point 60-90% of their objective is done, and if they hold on hook for another 11 seconds, it's GG until the killer initiates the next chase. Keep in mind the stats I'm using are based off previous experiences at rank 1 on both sides, and calculated using the times provided on the wiki. A non rushing team is 192, which is significantly more time, but if you're up against a team full of toolboxes and a single PT, gg no re, you've already lost 90% of your pressure in the first chase. Exceptions to this are maps like The Game, and Hawkins, because of how widely spread gens are and how convoluted the navroutes are to get to them.
Link? Ofc you will not have the video due to reasons.
You just stated it in your opening. *most* killers are weak and *most* maps are survivor sided. Therefore most of the time the survivor is the power role.
Not survivor sided in soloQ,but SWF sided i'd say. Ayrun got to a 96 escape streak with his squad,he lost to a stream sniping gf in the end
Definitely have to disagree here as well. I do not think the new maps have been extremely survivor sided. Especially now, that Ruin is nerfed, these are probably some of the most balanced maps. I wouldn't mind if they made a few pallets in the hallways of Hawkins slightly safer so survivors could mindgame those pallets as well, and I do think that Sanctum of Wrath could need a few more pallets, all mindgameable though, but in general they are very balanced.
Good survivors still have the potential to run the killer around long enough to make a good difference. The main difference here is that killers as well have counterplay to make chases last short enough so they can keep up with the gen speed. At least in Hawkins. I wish more maps had the balance of Hawkins, Lerys or at leasth the Badham maps, even though I feel like the Badham maps still have one or two too many safe pallets when considering the good window spawns that map has as well.
I'm talking about the increase in general healing time. It used to be 12 seconds for a survivor to heal another survivor, now it's 16 seconds.
And I personally have noticed quite a difference with the pallet density nerf. Sure, on some maps more than on others, and rng still plays a role in this as well, but for me this change made quite a nice difference.
Regarding pallet vacuum, I guess you are talking about the buff where survivors were able to throw down pallets a bit faster when stationary? I was talking about them teleporting from one side of the pallet to the other, which seemed ridiculous and removing that definitely helped the killer.
The DS nerf in my opinion was huge. Except for juggling, which wasted time and could be completely negated by body blocking survivors, there was no counterplay to DS. Now it's so much more manageable.
Hawkins in particular, which seems like a pretty balanced map to me, it just has maybe a few too many pallets that are completely unsafe for survivor. Sanctum is also pretty balanced in my opinion, since it's not that big and doesn't have too many pallets.
Lerys is also pretty balanced and probably getting even more balanced. The only problem I see with that map is the double window setup with the god pallet at the library. I feel like the devs might need to take a look at that loop but I doubt they will based on past experience.
Badham maps are also fairly balanced despite the buildings maybe still being just a tad too strong for survivors. Father's Champbell is also pretty balanced, and there are probably a few more I'm not thinking of. Of course, there are still quite a few maps that are unbalanced, especially the original maps. The Macmillan maps are probably the most balanced ones out of the original maps, but even those still have too many safe pallets. Except maybe for Shelter Woods. That map seems pretty balanced. Or even killer sided if the killer has high mobility.
Well I definitely agree that matchmaking and the ranking system is a big problem right now. Pretty sure there are some survivor players that believe the game is killer sided because of this one problem. They don't realise how problematic the ranking system is right now.
Ah, looks like we have to agree to disagree here once more. I hated old DS with such a passion. It's true, you could juggle the obsession to the hook. But that wasted time, only worked if you downed a survivor near a hook, and if there wasn't some other survivor bodyblocking for them. Otherwise, you would just have to slug the Obsession and never hook them.
And then there were the non obsession DS. Obviously you could avoid these DS if you got fast enough to a hook, but that wasn't in your control, and once again survivors body blocking almost guaranteed that they'd get their DS skill check. Again, a lot of time wasted for nothing.
Now, you have counterplay. If a survivor has been unhooked recently, you just have to slug them. Either you wait long enough and then get them back on a hook, or they get picked up again and you down them later. Either way, after those 60 seconds you can reliably hook the survivors that run DS again. I find DS now to be so much more manageable and don't actually think it needs any nerf. Sure, there are rare situations where it does hurt my momentum that I can't just pick a survivor back up after downing them. But besides that I feel like that perk has become so much fairer for killer.
One out of how many killers out there? Thing is, there are veteran players then there are the newer players. Newer players might end up hitting red ranks on either side, but that doesn't mean that they're going to do amazing. Problem I have is the fact devs are looking at red rank perks when I honestly don't think a lot of people in red ranks should be in red ranks
This game is survivor sided dev wise, since our competent management has already made their intentions of making the game "fun" for survivors clear many times. Otherwise, I agree with you, most killers now are more than capable of taking a swf with good players, except those 6 ######### ones
Wait was there really a nerf to fast vault after march 2018? Like was the time to fast vault increased? Cause that would be something I didn't know about at all.
But that does remind me of the small vaulting nerfs, where the devs made achieving fast vaults a bit more difficult to balance out at least a few loops a bit. Which definitely was good as well.
Yeah.
In GF's patch 3.0.0 they made it so the chance to fast vault is immediately cancelled if a survivor makes contact with the wall. This got rid of several times where a survivor can use their skill and timing to properly bait a killer as to if they're vaulting or not.
This was best used at T walls and Shack.
Once again them removing skilled gameplay for a more noob friendly environment
I'm just going to put my two cents in here, When talking about Solo then the killers have the upper hand but then you have to recognize the huge advantages a SWF Squad has, The Best Survivors in a SWF will almost always beat the Best Killer simply because of the communication advantage.
The game was never intended to have voice coms and was built with that in mind. SWF essentially brakes the game and gives survivors enough information to know what's going on on the map at all times.
Yes the Stats say other things but there's also a whole lot of variables in those Stats to the point where they're almost useless to draw any conclusions from. Hopefully the devs release more in depth and accurate stats in the future.
I will say another huge problem and in my eyes the biggest problem is Matchmaking, The Matchmaking and rank system isn't that well done. If people were matched constantly with people of the same skill level I guarantee the game would be in a much better place but as you have it now someone with 1000 hours can go against someone with 50 and it's considered fair because they've played long enough to reach red ranks. I really think hours played and devotion should be considered in matchmaking.
Did you read your own first post?
“most killers are weak and most maps are survivor sided”
Thats the core issue right there. You just admitted that unless you’re playing one of the top tier killers and get a good map, you’re at a heavy disadvantage.
At high level play in this game, matches are dictated by survivors. You’re at their mercy. If they make mistakes you have a chance. If they play optimal, you’re toast.
This is only going to get worse and worse with Ruin gone because theres simply no way for most of the killers to apply pressure across the giant maps this game has.
The 4 second healing time increase was something, but we also had multiple anti-heal perks nerfed slightly at the same time and the medkit buff I mentioned. I would also argue the Marth death squads in the game don't even heal in the first place because of how fast they can do gens and how safe the loops are. They have more than enough to get the 5 gens done, so against the good groups this isn't coming into play as much.
Some of these changes you're referring to I believe were further back than a year. We were just going to when Marths challenges took place. I could be mistaken though.
For pallets I'm referring to when the survivors had to do an entire swing over animation that was quite slow and then it was buffed to be much faster. This change I believe was after Marths videos. The initial teleporting from one side to the other I believe was much, much longer ago.
DS is "more" manageable than before but to me that isn't saying much. Yeah it's less broken, but it's still broken and single handedly dictates the matches even when all the survivors aren't running it just because of the possibility.
I guess I disagree on a lot of the newer maps that you think are more balanced now.
I mean, if that means you can run up against a wall, and then head towards the window vault while running against the wall getting a fast vault, then I think that was a good change. At least at the moment. If most maps are reworked to have only fair window loops and lots of mindgameable pallets, then I believe they could revert that change again.
I don't think that removed too much skill though. It probably was just a tiny part of what makes survivor skillful.
No no no you're confused.
Survivors used to be able to fast vault even when they were touching the actual window.
Now if the survivor touches the window before pressing R1 to vault it will always force a medium vault now.
This change eliminated skill when it came to a survivor guessing if the killer moon walked at a T wall or baited the Shack vault. The survivor used to be able to react to the killer then this change happened and it pretty much almost always gets the killer a hit.
I see your actions haven't changed. Still get mad and anger people who have different opinions then you. Despite the overwhelming amount of people saying your wrong you still refuse to accept it in the realm of possibility.
That is definitely not true in PS4, where the only high ranks still playing seem to have at least a 3 man and the world's most competent solo q (which we must remember not ALL solo ques are potatoes)
Ah ok. That seems more reasonable. Though did that really take away skill? Like all I feel like this changes is that survivors have to guess before they come in contact with the vault. Turning it more into a fair 50/50 mindgame, at least T-L walls. If anything that sounds like now it takes more skill.
Some of those nerfs are being looked at in a vacuum. Pallet density was reduced, then brought back up later (which is fair because their were far too few pallets at that point)
healing nerfs were impactful for SC, but that perk was absolutely OP as much as survivors hated to admit it. I think it wasn't nerfed the right way because it was a perk that helped solo ques balance out with Optimal SWF, but it definitely needed looked at
Same goes for DS, it literally only punished the killer for doing their objective and they couldn't claim this game is healthy without having nerfed it to it's STILL arguably too powerful state. Also, just remember how long this perk is active and think about all the killer perks in this game. Corrupt intervention is literally the only perk killers have that deny a survivor objective for as long as DS denies the killer objective, and that doesn't include the chase after DS hits.
In general look at how survivor perks are nerfed to be still very useful in most situations, while killers are given situational perks that must be built upon to make them powerful... And then they may still get nerfed/reworked to remove synergy. But if you have SC and BK, you basically self heal at the same speed as before (not meta, I know, but can make a hell of a difference when playing in solo ques).
You don't even know who has it these days. In the old times, you would always know the obsession at least had it. Juggling to a hook took an extra, what, 10-15 seconds? As opposed to 60 seconds of time wasted like now?
And enduring literally countered it. There is no counter currently other than waiting the 60 seconds.
I'm open to being disproven by sufficient evidence.
You could also say the stats are heavily deflated by killers afking, giving hatch, or just making silly mistakes.
Maps and killers are outside of the survivors' influence. It's an rng fest where killer has a less likely chance of lucking out, but if they play a high mobility killer then they almost always luck out.
You don't make a claim and ask people to provide evidence to disprove you. When you make a claim you're supposed to provide evidence that supports the claim that you have made. You have provided no evidence, therefore your point is invalid.
Okay I'll accept a 75% win rate with less than 75% of the maps played on being survivor sided.
Same is true for survivors
You mean of players of equal skill playing against one another and the killer losing like is normal? How do you think 3 to 5 gen chases happen?
Very few killers can force out a win. Killers rely on Survivors make mistakes in loop to outplay them.
I win some lose some as killer. Then again I get matched with purples more often than reds.
I didn't mean optimal swf versus non-optimal killers but thanks for trying to help.
They didn't fudge their previous stats that showed the game was broken. Nice try my guy. This is raw data, as flawed as it may be you have to at least shake a stick at it.
Not really as those nearly never happen..meanwhile the ones I stated happen in the vast majority of games as proven by pretty much every DVD stream and video never made
What makes those killers "non-optimal" to you?
You're gonna argue the game is killer sided against bad survivors? No one disagrees with that.
What people are talking about is at red ranks where they are much more optimal and the sweaty full SWF groups are quite common.
Balance is comparing strength with the best against the best, not looking at the balance of bad players against bad players.
Almost all killers make silly mistakes, I myself as killer can't help but make a mistake each trial. Be it forgetting to look for bbq auras, or not following scratch marks correctly, or pathing a chase wrong. Playing perfectly takes mastery.
Yes but where are the optimal killers? E.g. a killer that always knows which pallets are safe, where dead zones are, what all the survivors are currently doing. I want to see them getting crushed by an optimal swf no matter how well they play. Both sides need play to as near to perfection as possible, I might even have to discredit an entire trial if the killer misses the hit a single time or fails to get the hit at an unsafe loop or takes the blatantly wrong path. People only say optimal swf beats optimal killer because optimal killer is much rarer due to how hard it is to pull off. Of course an optimal swf will beat some casuals or someone who makes a silly mistake. I would like you to prove me wrong, to help me realize optimal swf has over 75% winrate over optimal killer. That's being generous. You probably need only link 40 games straight as optimal killer, to make it easy for you. They must be back to back games and not cut together. Good luck!
These games can be seen quite regularly on twitch with many of the popular streamers for killer.
"People only say optimal swf beats optimal killer because optimal killer is much rarer due to how hard it is to pull off."
It looks like this to you because for most killers they have to capitalize off survivor mistakes. If the survivors aren't making mistakes then they "look" bad. Very few killers on the roster can make plays happen without it being from a survivor mistake. This is skewing your perception of an "optimal killer".
Yes I'm sure people play killer perfectly regularly. I'll check it out thanks again for helping.