shootaman777
shootaman777
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@ProfSinful said:
A lot of those perks aren't even as bad as you make them out to be, they're just hilariously outclassed by meta perks. That being said, stop being a meta slave and run some meme builds for a change
That is nowhere near the truth. About 30 perks on each side could be considered meta, about 30 perks on each side could be considered useful/usable, and the remaining about 30 perks on each side are functionally worthless. The ones I've listed belong to the 'functionally useless' category, where they self-handicap/are as useful as an empty perk slot/the same effect can be achieved by not being blind.
As a matter of fact, those perks are exactly as bad as I make them out to be. I've used them all many times, in many ways. I'm not the meta slave you seem to think that I am, but if you want to slap a label on me, go ahead. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm asking what the plan should be for the about 30 functionally worthless perks. Judging by your response of 'run some meme builds for a change', I'd say that your response to the question in the OP is that you want those perks left as-is for meme value. Thanks for the answer.
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Suggested a Monstrous Shrine rework back in 2017 on Steam DbD forums, lemme go dig it up:
So, I've been looking forward to writing down these ideas for a while. Monstrous Shrine, at one point, was 'useful'. This was when one could make a basement build out of Iron Grasp, Agitation, and Monstrous Shrine. Essentially, from halfway across a map, a killer could hook a survivor in the basement. However, with the nerf of Iron Grasp, this is no longer the case."
So, I've been looking forward to writing down these ideas for a while.
Monstrous Shrine, at one point, was 'useful'. This was when one could make a basement build out of Iron Grasp, Agitation, and Monstrous Shrine. Essentially, from halfway across a map, a killer could hook a survivor in the basement.
However, with the nerf of Iron Grasp, this is no longer the case. IG/AGI nowadays can barely guarantee a single hooking, against a series of bodyblocks on the way to the hook, much less a basement hook. As such, Monstrous Shrine is no longer reliably useful. And there's no point in using a perk that isn't reliably useful.
So, Monstrous Shrine needs a buff and/or rework!
Currently, its effect is to make progression on the hook towards death 3/6/9% faster, to make attempting escape off the hook 5/10/15% more difficult (by decreasing the odds of successfully attempting escape by 5/10/15%), and to take a 3/6/9% extra piece of the remaining time in the first stage of being on the hook for a failed escape attempt. This is only when someone is hooked on a basement hook, and the stats are at the perk's tier 1/2/3 version.
Now, I've had a few ideas for this perk in the past.
[h1]Idea #1[/h1]
One such idea was to scrap all of the effects of the perk, and replace them with a basement hook being immediately into the struggle phase. Except, the struggle phase would last the full duration of the hooking, the full 120 seconds. However, being hooked once more, even if unhooked before going halfway through the 120 second struggle phase, would result in the death of a survivor. If a survivor was already hooked elsewhere on the map, and was hooked for the second time in the basement, which would normally put them in the struggle phase, they would die instantly on hooking. I'd call this the 'fear the basement' perk.
{EDIT} In response to unknownman016's question of what Idea #1 will do in its 3 separate tiers:
"Survivors being hooked for the first time in the basement would be (given 2 chances to attempt escape, or 40 seconds of 1st hook stage/given 1 chance to attempt escape, or 20 seconds of 1st hook stage/put immediately into a 120-second struggle phase). Survivors hooked for the second time in the basement would die instantly on hook, regardless of when they were previously unhooked, regardless of which tier of MS is being used. This is with the respective t1/2/3 versions of MS."
[h1]Idea #2[/h1]
Another such idea is something I had wanted to suggest for a while, but there was no precedent for the perk that I wanted to make. It would have a large benefit, balanced by a large detriment. It would also change the flow of the game and how the killer played it, entirely.
However, No Mither is now a perfect precedent for this kind of perk, and I won't be laughed out of the forums for this kind of suggestion.
Outline of idea 2:
-Perma sabo returns while this perk is equipped
-Basement hooks become breakable, circumstantially
-5 objects, relics for the Entity, are scattered across the map
-These 5 objects must be brought to the basement by survivors, otherwise exit gates will not be openable, nor will the hatch be able to open (including by key). However, to prevent griefing or cheesing, this effect would only last for 5 minutes after the exit gates were powered, or for 2 minutes after the second to last survivor in a trial dies. This is so the basement entrance cannot be bodyblocked to prevent people entering it indefinitely, and the hatch standoff/'slug 2nd to last survivor to hunt the last survivor' situation is prevented as well.
-Upon bringing the 5th item to the basement, the basement hooks would break, and the exit gates/hatch would immediately be able to be opened. However, this action would also put all the non-basement hooks on a 1-minute respawn timer.
-Potentially, bleedout timers would be extended while slugged, or survivors would be given 1 free Unbreakable. For balance reasons. The latter option is because survivors probably wouldn't enjoy being slugged for twice as long, based on how much they don't enjoy being slugged now.
[h1]Idea #3[/h1]
Idea #3 is essentially Idea #2, but instead of perma-sabotage returning, the infinite first hook stage would accompany the following previously mentioned things:
"
-Basement hooks become breakable, circumstantially
-5 objects, relics for the Entity, are scattered across the map
-These 5 objects must be brought to the basement by survivors, otherwise exit gates will not be openable, nor will the hatch be able to open (including by key). However, to prevent griefing or cheesing, this effect would only last for 5 minutes after the exit gates were powered, or for 2 minutes after the second to last survivor in a trial dies. This is so the basement entrance cannot be bodyblocked to prevent people entering it indefinitely, and the hatch standoff/'slug 2nd to last survivor to hunt the last survivor' situation is prevented as well.
-Upon bringing the 5th item to the basement, the basement hooks would break, and the exit gates/hatch would immediately be able to be opened. However, this action would also put all the non-basement hooks on a 1-minute respawn timer.
-Potentially, bleedout timers would be extended while slugged, or survivors would be given 1 free Unbreakable. For balance reasons. The latter option is because survivors probably wouldn't enjoy being slugged for twice as long, based on how much they don't enjoy being slugged now.
"
[h1]Idea #4[/h1]
Upon each time a survivor enters the basement, 1/1/2 of that survivor's perks will be disabled for the remainder of the match, by Monstrous Shrine tier 1/2/3. The disabled perks would be selected at random with tier 1 MS, but with tier 2 and tier 3 MS, they would be selected based on a priority list.
The perks would be removed in this order, from highest to lowest priority: Self-Care, Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, Bond, Empathy, Iron Will, Dead Hard, Lithe, Unbreakable, Balanced Landing, Plunderer's Instinct, Urban Evasion, We'll Make It, Lightweight, Quick & Quiet, Kindred, Object of Obsession, Saboteur, Technician, Botany Knowledge, No Mither, Adrenaline, Sole Survivor, Up the Ante, Hope, Ace in the Hole, Streetwise, Premonition, Spine Chill, No One Left Behind, Small Game, Slippery Meat, Leader, Prove Thyself, Dark Sense, Resilience, Calm Spirit, This is not Happening, Left Behind, Alert, and Open Handed.
As an example;
-If I were running Self-Care, Plunderer's Instinct, Up the Ante, and Slippery Meat, and entered the basement when the killer was running MS, I would lose the use of (a random perk/Self-Care/Self-Care and Plunderer's Instinct), depending on which the killer was running; MS t1/2/3.
-Upon entering the basement a second time in the match, I would lose the use of (a random 2nd perk/Plunderer's Instinct/Up the Ante and Slippery Meat), depending on which the killer was running; MS t1/2/3.
And so on and so forth.
The mechanic for this perk's activation already exists, in the form of Territorial Imperative. It would be a simple matter for its activation to be implemented, and would not be terribly difficult to give these listed effects.
{EDIT}: Originally suggested by sturmwolf74: Survivor perks will not function in the basement.
I think this would be a lovely addition to the t3 version of this idea of the perk.
[h1]Idea #5[/h1]
The killer would be able to sacrifice a basement hook to reactivate a broken Hex perk, on an unlit Hex totem on the map. This would be done by performing a 5 second animation on an unlit Hex totem, and would break the basement hooks farthest from the basement staircase first. It would trade 1 hook per re-lighting a totem.
[h1]Idea #6[/h1]
A survivor beginning to open the basement chest will result in them being: hit for 1 health state once per trial/sent immediately into the dying state once per trial/sent immediately into the dying state, with a cooldown of 2 minutes per activation. This would be the respective effect of MS t1/2/3.
[h1]Idea #7[/h1]
Just a direct numerical buff to MS, suggested by Larcz.
"Currently, its effect is to make progression on the hook towards death 3/6/9% faster, to make attempting escape off the hook 5/10/15% more difficult (by decreasing the odds of successfully attempting escape by 5/10/15%), and to take a 3/6/9% extra piece of the remaining time in the first stage of being on the hook for a failed escape attempt. This is only when someone is hooked on a basement hook, and the stats are at the perk's tier 1/2/3 version."
In other words, currently:
-This takes 3.5/6.8/9.9 seconds off of the total time on the hook for 116.5/113.2/110.1 seconds of time in total spent on the hook, or 1.75/3.4/4.95 seconds off per each hook state for 58.25/56.6/55.05 seconds in each hook state.
-This decreases the 4% chance to successfully attempt escape by 0.2/0.4/0.6%, giving a chance of 3.8/3.6/3.4% to successfully attempt escape.
-This increases the penalty for a failed escape attempt by 0.58/1.13/1.65 seconds' worth of hook time.
I have no idea how the rounding of seconds and charges happens in DbD with cancelled/altered actions, but this math assumes that there are 120 charges on the hook and that charges are lost at a rate of 0.01 charges per 0.01 seconds on the hook, normally. It also assumes that 20 charges of hook time are consumed per failed escape attempt.
The reason that I bring this up is that I don't know if, say, the 0.58 seconds, or 58% of a hook charge, is rounded down to zero hook charges, so that MS t1 actually has no increased penalty for failed escape attempts, and the penalty for MS t2 and t3 is actually the same.
But, disregarding this, let's move onto the actual rework portion of Idea #7.
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In the buffed version, its effect will be to make progression on the hook towards death 10/20/30% faster, to make attempting escape off the hook 20/35/50% more difficult (by decreasing the odds of successfully attempting escape by 20/35/50%), and to take a 10/20/30% extra piece of the remaining time in the first stage of being on the hook for a failed escape attempt. This is only when someone is hooked on a basement hook, and the stats are at the perk's tier 1/2/3 version.
In other words, in the reworked version:
-This will take 10.91/20/27.69 seconds off of the total time on the hook for 109.09/100/92.31 seconds of time in total spent on the hook, or 5.455/10/13.845 seconds off per each hook state for 54.545/50/46.155 seconds in each hook state.
-This will decrease the 4% chance to successfully attempt escape by 0.8/1.4/2%, giving a chance of 3.2/2.6/2% to successfully attempt escape.
-This will increase the penalty for a failed escape attempt by 1.82/3.33/4.62 seconds' worth of hook time.
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This is as high as I think these stats can go, without making them unreasonable.
I considered increasing the penalty for failed escape attempts to only allow a total of 2 escape attempts, but with a 2% chance to Kobe off the hook, I'd say it'd be more hurtful to a survivor to even attempt escape in the first place than it would be helpful, because it takes about 1.5 seconds to attempt escape, and with an added penalty of 1.82/3.33/4.62 seconds, it would waste (3.32/4.83/6.12):(6.64/9.66/12.24):(9.96/14.49/18.36) seconds of hook time to attempt 1:2:3 escapes against MS t(1/2/3). And that's a significant penalty, on top of the 20/40/60 seconds wasted per each failed escape attempt.
I'm not sure how much I can reasonably fiddle with the stat of the increased rate of progression on the hook, or even any of the stats, as the devs designed them. This is because Monstrous Shrine is a perk that has long since been abandoned by the devs. When IG was buffed from when it used to be in its current state, to 3x its effectiveness, in response to sabometa and the need for basement builds, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No. When IG was nerfed back to its current values, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No. When the amount of time on a hook recently was increased by 30 seconds, an increase of 15 per hook stage, from a total of 90 seconds on a hook to 120 seconds, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No. When new maps such as Lery's, the Red Forest, Fractured Cowshed, Grim Pantry, Groaning Storehouse, etc were introduced, where it is nigh on impossible to carry a hooked survivor to the basement unless they are downed right next to it, thanks to long walls and convoluted pathways throughout each map's signature buildings/basement areas, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No.
Here's an example of how difficult it is to tweak these stats: looking at my calculations, you may think that taking 27.69 seconds off of how long a survivor is on the hook in total before they die, as opposed to the current 9.9 seconds or the old 7.43 seconds (from when a survivor only had 90 seconds on the hook), is good, right? You'd be mistaken if you agreed with that statement.
MS was rarely even used at that time, when it would give a survivor 82.57 seconds of total hook time. What makes anyone think it will suddenly start gaining usage by giving a survivor 92.31 seconds of total hook time? And all of this, with the condition of a basement hook.
Here's the answer, and why I didn't include a direct numerical buff in my original list of 5, or even the updated list of 6 ideas: the concept of the effects of MS is outdated and dead in the current meta. There's simply no reason to take a perk that decreases hooking time, with the condition of requiring a basement hooking, with the disparity I noted previously in this paragraph, when there are perks such Thanatophobia, Hex: Ruin, Dying Light, Brutal Strength, Agitation, BBQ and Chili, Enduring, Iron Grasp, Hex: NOED, Hex: Huntress Lullaby, Overcharge, Knock Out, PWYF, STBFL, SFTS, Tinkerer, and Whispers that can decrease time spent hunting, chasing, and hooking, as well as decreasing the rate at which survivors progress at completing all 5 generators and escaping. Any of the perks on that list, in almost 99/100 cases, be more effective than the buffed version of MS, even if those perks are not being used to their full potential.
On top of that, I face another dilemma: how low can I lower the odds of successfully attempting escape before it's nothing but a waste of time? There needs to be some form of hope of successfully attempting escape, even with this perk, otherwise it's pointless, because the Entity will have no hope to feed from. It can't just be a case of 'Oh, this hook progression is too fast, it must be Monstrous Shrine, there's no point in even trying to hang on or attempt escape, I'll just suicide on the hook'. Sure, it's good for the killer, but it doesn't make for a good match, and would never be allowed to be created, thanks to the backlash that would come from survivors.
So, that's my take on MS and direct buffs of it, as well as why I believe that it not only SHOULD get a rework, but it REQUIRES one.
[h1]Idea #8[/h1]
This idea is based on a suggestion originally from ☆Im Bad☆, that MS would be fixed, if only it were to put survivors hooked in the basement into an unhealable Weakened State for the entirety of 1 minute after being unhooked from a basement hook.
From that, this idea will consist of something slightly similar.
MS t1/2/3 will:
-(slightly/moderately/considerably) decrease the action speed of survivors that were formerly hooked in the basement, for the remainder of the match.
-(not allow a survivor to heal for 1 minute after being unhooked/not allow a survivor to heal for 3 minutes after being unhooked/not allow a survivor to heal for the remainder of the match after being unhooked) from a basement hook.
Additionally, it will give the killer (0/5/10%) increased movement speed while farther than (52/46/40) meters from the survivor hooked in the basement.
The goal of this idea is to provide a lasting effect from being hooked in the basement, making it worth running as a perk when the condition required to activate it, is hooking someone in the basement, which is easier said than done. It also promotes not camping the hooked survivor in the basement for the speed boost to hunt someone else down with, and synergises well with BBQ and Chili. Additionally, it gives Territorial Imperative a purpose. It also promotes not tunneling the survivor who was basement hooked, and going for the unhooker in the interest of looking for another basement hook for another permanent debuff, without having to worry so much about the genrush or having to do a 2-hit chase from the basement escapee.
[h1]End[/h1]
I'll be updating this thread with more ideas as I think of them or as they are suggested, but this is what we have so far. So, what do y'all think of these? Keep in mind, this thread is a WIP, and any and all input is being taken in for consideration.
[h1]Side Notes/Free-Floating Ideas/Effects[/h1]
-Having multiple basements
-Increased movement speed while carrying survivors
-After unhook, suffering from debuffs (Exhausted, Mangled, etc)
-Auras not shown while hooked in basement
-MS spawns a basement totem that 1st totem perk equipped defaults to, takes longer to cleanse
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Alternatively, just play Leatherface. Chainsaw through the snowman, and keep swinging until they become vulnerable after popping out of it. There's no reason to play any killer other than Leatherface for the entirety of the event, with how the snowmen work. Played a game as Nemesis where someone used 4/6 snowmen in a single chase as extra health states, it was absolutely ridiculous.
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This is your friendly reminder that Cheryl Mason's Soul Guard (released June 16, 2020), locked behind a paywall of Auric Cells or the Silent Hill DLC, has NEVER been on the Shrine of Secrets. That's 541 days, by the way.
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It's more about the killer you are using, rather than the survivors you are playing against. Some killers force pallet drops, others make dropping pallets a bad idea. Leatherface, Deathslinger, Clown, Nemesis, and Doc, for instance, force lots of pallet drops. But very few people will drop pallets against Huntresses, Nurses, Hillbillies, Legions, Plagues, Pyramid Heads, and Tricksters. Nemesis and Leatherface, in particular, are the best killers for this challenge, especially when you run the proper Spirit Fury/Enduring on Leatherface, or hit t2/3 mutation on Nemesis.
EDIT: Also, Wraith isn't half-bad for this, either, if you run into pallets while cloaked, while pretending that you are trying to block the pallet drop hitbox.
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I'll get back to you soon, Astrian. I'll be playing the game rather than being on the forums, for the time being. The odds of getting a Coldwind map are lower, so I'll be enjoying that while it lasts.
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Google defines 'feedback' as "information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement". I was unaware that complaint due to the direct actions of a developer was not classified as feedback. Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of the dictionary definition of 'feedback' **/s**. Apparently, in your version of reality, negative feedback does not exist; it must either be positive feedback, or it is not feedback at all. Careful there, your shining armour is showing, BHVR's corporate white knight.
I do not have the brightness on my monitor set high, because I do not enjoy being blinded by a screen. I have blackout curtains and the lights out, generally, to avoid glare making the screen difficult to see. Which makes painfully bright colours all the more painful to look at, as my eyes are generally adjusted to the relative dark.
Think about this for a moment, in the context of the game. The loading screen is, essentially, pitch-black. Then, the screen instantly goes bright white, if it is a Coldwind Farm map.
We've been through this before and already reached the proper conclusion - don't do that to players. Remember how flashlight blinding was changed to darken the screen out, instead of making the screen flare bright white? Remember how this was done to prevent players from getting headaches? This should not even be a point of contention - BHVR should address this in the same way that they have in the past.
And, if it turns out that bright maps somehow add to horror (in my opinion, they don't), then there is always the solution of gradually increasing brightness throughout the match. Let's say that the Entity starts the trial at the crack of an artificial dawn, and as time progresses in the match, the map gets progressively brighter until a certain point that we can call 'noon'. Even a gradually moving two-dimensional image of a sun in the sky would be good enough to explain away this brightening-over-time effect.
Sure, it's nice that BHVR is trying to do something differently, but making the same mistake twice is not positive change. If that is what you call 'spot-on execution', I would question your perception abilities. The fact that BHVR did this, makes me question whether or not BHVR's QA tested for anything other than bugs, and/or whether or not non-bug-related QA feedback is ignored by the rest of BHVR.
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Here're some screenshots of another successful Adept Executioner that did not count:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442800544961134613/814270031255830528/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442800544961134613/814269962003808296/unknown.png
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1018568#Comment_1018568
Doesn't make sense to me but thanks for explaining this nonsense.
While the content of the OP can be understood word-by-word, I'm having trouble figuring out what the overall point of the post is, too. Not sure it was that good of an explanation when I don't get it, either.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
I don think pipping requirements have changed. Did I miss something?
The OP is saying that anyone who they deem 'immersed' (uses stealth) will be constantly be depipping, because matches go so fast that they won't have time to do anything else if they spend time stealthing. Whereas players like the OP will black pip, and the immersed survivors will only derank, effectively booting stealth gameplay out of high ranks.
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@TheArchivist said:
hex: ruin. Even before it was a perk, sometimes useless. With a good team, coordinated to beast. They gen rush you, even with access ruin. Then, they break it. Because they always spawn nearby. I mean, I did some experiments with ruin. And I've always won without. Because they break it after 5 sec of the game. Or why I also rush with the access ruin. It would be nice if the entity blocked the perk for 1-2 minutes. It would be a nice buff.
I'm going to translate this to:
"Hex: Ruin. Even before the changes, it was sometimes useless. Against a properly coordinated team, the killer gets genrushed through Hex: Ruin. The survivors break it anyways, because they always spawn near the totem. I have stopped using Hex: Ruin because, in my experience, it does not last long enough to be useful to me as killer, and I can power through gens with Hex: Ruin active myself as survivor, too. It would be a nice buff if the entity blocked the perk for 1-2 minutes."
Hope that's accurate to what you were saying, I found it hard to respond to what was written there as-was, so changed it to this before responding.
Agreed. Though I'd like to see the entity blocking totem perks for 1-2 minutes into the match being a universal totem perk buff, rather than just a buff to Hex: Ruin.
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@AshleyWB said:
I think if you want all high rarity add-ons deleted, you're taking the game too seriously.
Dbd is best as a casual game not a competitive one.
What I was trying to point out, was that they've basically already been deleted in every way except being deleted from the game files. The OP title is clickbait, to be sure, but the content is this.
Also, offerings, not add-ons.
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Head On = annoying 4-SWF, generally.
Some killers either don't have the patience to deal with them, or aren't masochistic enough to want to play against them.
Plus, Head On is more of a threat than most people realise.
-It makes basement hookings off-limits, since dedicated servers let survivors Head-On save at the bottom of the basement staircase, no matter how the killer hugs the staircase wall.
-It makes the routes to hooks longer, as passing by any locker can result in a Head On save, forcing the killer to take a roundabout route with no lockers. This makes bodyblocks more effective, too.
-Most main buildings become a danger zone... for killers... because the impending threat of Head On at every and any locker.
Why did weaponised lockers have to be a thing...
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009431#Comment_1009431
It isn't a nerf nuke lmao. Ruin still has a lot of potential for synergy in slowdown/totem builds. The issues the Ruin change creates are far less than the ones they solve. From a business standpoint, the Ruin nerf helps the devs no doubt.
Yes, it is a nerf nuke.
As I said in the OP, and this is just one example of it being at the very least a nerf, if not a 'nerf nuke':
"-to make use of the 'reworked' Hex: Ruin effectively, it requires a perk combination; be it other totem perk(s) for camouflage, Surge to aid in a 3gen strategy, Surveillance to monitor regressing generators, etc. Increasing the perk slot cost of Hex: Ruin to at least 2 perk slots, while having it be less effective than it already was with a cost of only 1 perk slot, is not terribly welcome of a change."
Taking the synergies into account or not, the potential it will have post nerf nuke, is less than the current potential. This is what is defines a 'nerf'. What makes it a 'nerf nuke', is that every mechanic of it has seen a downgrade, or internal conflict that results in another downgrade.
Please elaborate on:
"The issues the Ruin change creates are far less than the ones they solve. From a business standpoint, the Ruin nerf helps the devs no doubt."
-Which issue(s) are you referring to? Please list all of the ones the changes create, and all of the ones the changes solve. It is hard to take your word for it when you do not explain what you are saying enough to be understood by anyone but yourself. I am sure that it makes sense in your head, but if you do not explain the reasoning/examples/logic behind it, it will never make sense when you say it to someone else.
-From a business standpoint? Please elaborate on where they stand to gain as a business from the change.
-Please explain how the Ruin nerf helps the devs, and how you are able to know this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Could I likely come up with an answer or two to these questions if I put some thought into it? Sure, but I am not going to do the thinking and writing for you, to prove your own assertions. That is not my role here. It is yours.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009383#Comment_1009383
Legion can't be looped in Frenzy silly
Just because you say it can't happen, doesn't mean the preponderance of evidence to the contrary ceases to exist. :)
Oh, also, here's a link to the depip squad playlist of all the matches, forgot to link it to ya on the other thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEB9Rh6AtbI&list=PLoJokCjX7gozpIVDM1qjmXSC7M1SXSP3C
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@DetailedDetriment said:
I believe people are still making Ruin forums for attention.
That's the point. To bring attention to the issues that Hex: Ruin's 'rework' (nerf nuke) creates. That's why we have these forums - to discuss ideas and provide feeback for the devs to work with. If we all stopped talking about how Freddy was nerfed because of how rank 20s complained about him, do you think the devs would've ever buffed him? No, probably not. Because if the community is not talking about it, then the devs can assume that the community has no interest in it. Even if people are already talking about something, it is better to add another voice to the pile.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009239#Comment_1009239
I calculated that if a survivor is hugging a wall at 32m away, it is possible for the Legion to catch them by pythag theorem. No maps have different straight boundrys, so i didn't need to factor them in. Of course this relies heavily on positioning, but its to prove a point that it works most of the time against most people as there will be error from the survivors side eventually.
I'm going to keep responding with the same thing about the "good survivors will never let you corner them", so i think we see our differences in what we think. You think that they will never be cornered or pushed near an edge, i think they will be.
Also what do you mean loops delay him? I know survivors have smaller hitboxes but they're nowhere near that small to make his feral frenzy useless, or anywhere near useless. I've been playing Legion since release and never have i been looped until my frenzy ran out and this was back when he moved at 5.0m/s.
You're cherrypicking an ideal situation in which an ideally inexperienced survivor is at ideal distance in an ideally disadvantaged situation (a map boundary) that they ideally chose to put themselves in, with ideally no Exhaustion crutches as a get-out-of-jail-free card (Lithe for structures on map boundary with windows, Dead Hard (honourable mention, not really a consideration here), Sprint Burst otherwise), and they ideally make a mistake (as you mentioned). There are too many 'ideal' factors in there for the situation you propose to be worth considering. Put simply, you are describing a case with a likelihood of 1% where and ideal Legion may have a chance in Frenzy against a bad survivor, whereas 99% of other cases involve... well, every other circumstance. Posing that 1% situation as the regular seems kind of pointless, doesn't it?
The problem isn't the hitbox, it's collision and movement mechanics - a common misconception about looping. Killers have a far slower rate of acceleration than survivors. You know that killer movement speed stat? It's maximum speed, not the speed you always move at. This means that, when constantly changing direction (such as when being looped around an object), the killer is constantly moving BELOW their maximum speed due to changing directions, whereas the survivor is near-constantly moving at their maximum speed of 4.0 metres/second.
Ever clipped a corner as killer and come to a dead stop? Try that same corner as survivor, and you won't be stopped by it. This results in the killer having to take a wider loop around the same object so as to not clip the tiniest bit into it and come to a full stop, whereas survivors can hug an object without losing speed.
Combine these two factors? The increased speed from Frenzy will rarely be reached in a loop, and the Legion has to make up even more distance on the survivor than they would have to, if they were chasing a survivor who was holding W and running in a straight line away from Legion.
Like I said, if a survivor knows what they're doing, they can neuter Legion, making the experience nightmarish for the Legion player. If you haven't had to go against that, count yourself incredibly lucky, my fellow Legion player. It's soul-crushing, and every survivor used to know exactly how to do it. From what you describe, apparently they've forgotten. I hope this is the case, but I am more inclined to believe that you are playing at low ranks, than that they've suddenly forgotten how to play.
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@Clevite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009196#Comment_1009196
I can understand that. However I don't have a lot of survivor experience so part of the fun for me is the strategizing with 1 or 2 other players in an attempt to get us all out.
It may get boring sometime in the future if I ever get to be a really good survivor. But now I'm enjoying the challenge of trying to loop.
Plus it can only make me a better killer!
Hope you enjoy it for as long as you can. Just remember to not make excuses to convince yourself that you still enjoy it, once the enjoyment wears off. A lot of people do this and end up being miserable, but keep coming back to DbD. Not sure if I'd call it an addiction, or intentional self-delusion, but it's where a number of players I know are at.
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I feel you, OP.
Old Freddy was very fun. He was one of the few killers who could punish survivors by putting them at his mercy.
The formula for such a match was this:
-tunnel 1 person (the obsession) to death, with (pre-nerf) Remember Me (and potentially ye olde Dying Light).
-put the three remaining survivors to sleep without injuring them (this was back when Adrenawin did not wake up survivors)
-slug them all down with aura reading (and potentially NOED), as they are unable to open exit gates (it took 45 or 90 seconds to open exit gates, awake or asleep, respectively, IIRC, and there was no way to wake up other than sabo, if healthy with gates powered). Survivors treated Freddy as a joke back then and would often genrush in his face, allowing for consistent NOED activation.
-kill them at your leisure
It was incredibly hard to pull off, as smart survivors quickly understood what was going on and coordinated hook dives to save the obsession (but their BT allowed extra stacks of Remember Me to be gathered). But man, forcing survivors to cry uncle was incredibly satisfying, and I miss it so much.
@kreeper124 said:
I really don't understand how anyone thinks old Freddy was better. Maybe old Freddy was fun to play as, but he was just horrible.
Picture this. A basic M1 killer, but you couldn't attack anyone until you put them to sleep. That's old Freddy. The new Freddy has all the tools a killer would need. He may need some tweaks here and there, but otherwise he's fine the way he is
The difference between old/new Freddy is when his killer power is effective. New Freddy's killer power becomes weaker later in the match (by losing gen teleport when gates are powered), whereas old Freddy was only brutally lethal in endgame.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009139#Comment_1009139
Its not cornering, its literally staying near the side of a map, you cannot tell me nobody ever goes near the side of a map, if anything on maps like ormond, loops are near the boundaries of the map making it a hot spot for survivors along with generators.
I did some math and figured out that if you are near the boundry and you are in legions terror radius, it is impossible to avoid getting hit as long as you are in a straight line from Legion, and that's if your playing absolutely perfectly, such as exactly 32m away, hugging the boundry while running etc. The only thing that will stop you is if there's lots of debree getting in legions way which is unlikely.
I want to also point out that when i mean grouping up, i don't mean like working on a gen, i mean only within 20m or so of each other, which you will find quite commonly and just happens naturally.
I'm not telling you that some survivors don't do it. I'm telling you that the ones that do do it, are inexperienced survivors, to the tune of allowing you to corner them due to their inexperience.
Please, do share this math. Did you measure map sizes? Terror radius, comparatively? Would you be so kind as to demonstrate your findings to the rest of us?
Also, while holding W while facing away from Legion is one method of running down the Frenzy clock, looping is a better method, as the Legion can not cover as much ground on a survivor while they are looping. They do not need a pallet to do so - all the survivor needs is a rock. Or any map debris, really. Unless Legion runs one of three duration-increasing add-ons (and even with them, the difference is negligible), the Frenzy timer is static, and it is easy to predict when it will run out, for an experienced survivor.
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Do you have a rework suggestion for MoM? This thread is not currently constructive in any way, the gist of it being able to be summed up by 'MoM sucks, don't touch it'.
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@Clevite said:
Like the title says. I was a killer main for 7 devotions. Now I am about to finish my first devotion as a survivor main.
I felt I had accomplished all I could as killer. And I wanted to get as good as the survivors that were making my games so sweaty.
Also survivor is less stressful to me than killer.
So why did you switch?
Been playing both sides, back and forth since June 14th, 2016. I play survivor if I want some low-key, stress-free, easy wins. Usually, I play survivor inbetween frustrating matches of killer, as playing killer is a stressful exercise in time management.
I don't like to SWF, though, and prefer to soloqueue. SWF gives so much information that I have a hard time not falling asleep with the abundance of information that teammates can provide, because I don't have to pay attention and discern information for myself. All that leaves is holding M1 on generators until the exit gates are powered, and that gets rather dull, quickly.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009043#Comment_1009043
######### are you talking about. Plagues 1 hit down is based on the Survivors not cleansing.
Them cleansing is omega-huntress, but not a 1 hit down.
Apologies, I poorly phrased that. I meant to say 'one-hit-down perks/abilities' were worthless on the Plague, as survivors were already injured.
Additionally, if you've ever countered poor old Legion, you would know that injured survivors can loop just as well as healthy survivors, especially against a killer with effectively no killer power with which to shorten a chase. There's a reason that 'just don't heal' is a meta that the best players follow, and either don't heal until endgame or run Adrenawin.
I referred to Corrupt Purge as a one-hit-down, as it would be used against infected/injured survivors to be able to actually shorten a chase, if one of them were foolhardy enough to cleanse. But, it is worthless, as it is normally activated far from survivors at an infected shrine, giving them plenty of time to hide and run down the clock.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009102#Comment_1009102
You can't tell if a killer is playing optimally from the survivors' screens.
The depip squad consisted of killer mains, who were constantly evaluating the killer throughout the matches. They knew which ones were/weren't playing optimally, from their own experience. Watch a couple of matches of the depip squad if you want to see this. Their commentary throughout the match was fairly interesting to hear.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1008847#Comment_1008847
You seem to have not played Legion that much so ill explain how to get hits in frenzy. When you hit a survivor in the centre of the map and you see another near the edges, you travel towards them in an efficient path, leaving no room for the survivors to go. A good legion is uncounterable in this situation.
That is the most efficient way of doing it, which completely counters that "only 12m" argument (which i know iv'e made in the past) as they need to run at a 90 degree angle from you, not directly away. You also forgot to add the lunge distance that gets you more distance.
Yea of course if you frenzy towards the centre of the map they are gonna start running early but then you just go back to the survivor you hit. By the time you downed them (cos its only 1 hit) your ability will be back and you frenzy the one you found earlier and the cycle repeats.
The only time this doesn't apply is when the map is massive, like red forest, however its borderline impossible for like 90% of killers to win on that map against an efficient team.
Also sometimes survivors just naturally group up, you cannot tell me that there is a team that doesn't come within like a 20m radius of each other like, ever in a match, it just doesn't happen.
Once again ill say this: I don't think the Legion is good, but he is fun and not as bad as people make him out to be.
Those rank 20 survivors you go against who don't stay within a stone's throw of a loop, or go near map boundary at all (they are allowing themselves to be cornered. Don't think for a second that you're doing the cornering), and don't have an Exhaustion perk to easily evade your Frenzy, must be nice to go against.
Survivors grouping up is a hallmark of inefficient, inexperienced play. Separating and working on different generators is the most efficient playstyle - grouping up for any reason is foolhardy at best. Even if it is to heal, it is inefficient.
If 2 survivors are injured and use Self-Care, they finish healing in 32 seconds. If 2 survivors are injured and heal each other, they finish healing in 32 seconds. If 4 survivors are injured and Self-Care, they finish healing in 32 seconds. If 4 survivors heal each other, they finish healing in 48-64 seconds. And survivors can not be forced to flee the same area at the same time by one killer, if they are already healing themselves in separate areas.
This is why all co-operative actions are wastes of time, for survivors. If you find survivors bunching up for any reason (apart from unhooking), it is because they do not understand this. So, rank 20s.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009058#Comment_1009058
Oh yeah pipping system bad. I guess the game is survivor sided in that aspect. Thanks
They depipped those killers... by the old standard, which was kills = pips. As in, a 1-kill match for 85%+ of those killers that barely lasted for two chases. They were playing optimally like the situation I mentioned in the Hex: Ruin thread.
If survivors play optimally (genrush separate gens the instant the trial begins, with 1 person wasting the killer's time in a chase), the game is 100% survivor-sided. Killers only have a chance in a match if the survivors hand it to them on a silver platter, by playing suboptimally.
I'm of the opinion that the game should be balanced around optimal playstyles/how the best players play, since the limit of what they can do essentially represents what everyone else can or can't do, at their peak. As the most optimal killers against the most optimal survivors results in a near-guaranteed victory for said survivors, I would call the game survivor-sided. Win/loss rates nonwithstanding, balance is when the potential of both sides balance out to give each side a chance at victory. When the potential of one side so thoroughly invalidates any effort/skill of the other, anyone would be hard-pressed to call it a 'balanced' or 'fair' situation.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009019#Comment_1009019
To be fair those numbers also don't include that the timer gets paused while you vault but you still makes distance
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009005#Comment_1009005
Yeah those killer instinct increases do more harm then good
While the killer vaults, the survivor is also gaining distance from the vault/on the next loop to run down Frenzy's duration. The pause doesn't do much to help the killer.
Legion's power is a map traversal ability. He's an M1 killer with slightly better mobility than a trapless Trapper.
@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009019#Comment_1009019
Let’s not forget exhaustion Perks or crappy map design forcing you to take a longer path to the Survivor than as the crow flies. Those are also factors for sure.
That's a part of/consideration in looping, am already accounting for that.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1007301#Comment_1007301
I have yet to see an optimal swf beat 100 optimal killers in a row. Link and I'll follow the herd.
Look into Marth88's depip squad experiment. 4 perkless SWF survivors depipped almost 70 killers in a row, and over 90 of the hundred games they played, at high ranks exclusively. IIRC, the first killer that actually pipped against them was a god-tier Huntress player with top-tier add-ons, and that was killer 60-something.
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Injuring a survivor with the Plague's infection does not count as a hit for the Brutality emblem, but when they cleanse back to full health, it counts against the Plague as healing for negative Brutality emblem points. In other words, the best way to rank up with Plague is to never touch her power.
Additionally, survivors can heal in 6 seconds in a fountain, whereas against Myers they have to deal with normal healing times (16 seconds normally, or 32 with Self-Care).
The Plague's entire power is countered by survivors not cleansing. Her entire M2 is worthless if survivors never cleanse - the no-heal meta that was the death of Legion, is just as much the death of the Plague. This also makes one-hit-downs worthless on the Plague.
Myers has an effective one-hit-down that the Plague does not. It can be activated on command, rather than being fully dependent on survivors cleansing at a conveniently located fountain.
Her power does not have any mindgaming potential, like Myers' power does.
It's fairly straightforward. The Plague is trash compared to Myers. And Myers isn't good in the first place. It's saddening, truly.
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1008783#Comment_1008783
I was likely better at downing Survivors as 110 Legion without using Frenzy than you are as 115 Legion. Try again.
Also, if you're so convinced Legion is great at chaining hits, here's some numbers: At a rate of 1.2 meters per second (the speed at which a Legion in Feral Frenzy catches up to a running Survivor), a 10-second Frenzy means that in order to outpace a Frenzying Legion and totally nullify his ability to chain a hit, you only need to be 12 meters away.
12 meters. Three-eights of the Legion's base Terror Radius.
Wow, so good.
And with double duration addons, it goes up to 16.8 meters. Barely more than four-eights or one-half of the Legion's Terror Radius. That's with his best Frenzy addons. His BEST. If you exceed 16.8 meters of distance from the Legion at any given point, there is no way his Frenzy can touch you unless you sit still.
God, Legion is so good.
Oh, and those numbers aren't even considering that when survivors loop, they increase the effective distance between the killer and themselves, as killers have a slower rate of acceleration around corners than survivors, forcing the killer to be moving slower than the survivor for all turning portions of the loop in question. So, Legion must be even closer to the survivor (starting off) than you mentioned to be able to score a hit.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1008741#Comment_1008741
Honestly sounds more like a you problem.
It happens every match that you can chain hits and i'm sorry but if you have trouble hitting a survivor even once then you just need to get better at chases
Legion satisfaction comes from injuring really fast and then only needing to outplay the survivors once to down them.
It's not unusual against a good Legion that has everybody injured that suddenly every 30 seconds someone goes down and gives him a pop goes the weasel
If your a killer that needs a power to hit survivors and let's themself be looped for 3 gens if they don't then yes i can believe you that you don't think legion is fun
Where can I find these potato survivors you consistently go up against, that let you chain multiple hits (again, consistently) with ease? Rank 20?
Also, what power? Legion has a power? I thought his power was called Thanatophobia /s.
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As survivor, it's too easy to win to the point where it is boring to play on. Safe pallets as far as the eye can see, 3 timewaster loops... it's not even a challenge. Depending on the quality of fellow survivors, it's still possible to lose the match overall, but survival is not difficult, for survivors who know how to chain (abuse) the timewasters.
As killer, it's a boring slog to chase people who know what they're doing through the same loops over and over. Against people who don't know what they're doing, it's not fulfilling to win because it's clear that they could have won if they knew what they were doing.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
This is a literal essay.
But seriously: Hex: Ruin has been seen as mandatory because it slows the game down with no effort required. Pop goes the Weasel slows the game down considerably more (20 secs per hook, around 8 hooks per game will save you 2 min 40 secs). Against survivors who can't hit greats, Ruin will survive for about 2.5 generators, 9 skillchecks per gen, that's 2 min 34 secs if survivors never hit greats, power through gens until Ruin is found, and find Ruin with minimal extra effort. The only difference is that you need not play the game or try to accomplish your objectives to make use of Ruin. In short, Ruin was an easy way to buy time against inexperienced players and is basically Easy mode for killers. I agree the only way they could possibly deal with the map imbalance problem with haste would be to add mobility and pressure options to some killers. I would personally love to see Clown running around in a drunken stupor.
Apologies about the length of it, didn't want to have to type out the same things that I've already typed elsewhere later in this thread, figured I'd put it all in one place.
I agree that it is seen as mandatory because it slows the game down, but not that it is seen as mandatory because of the low effort required. It comes with the risk of a totem perk after all - the risk that, depending on totem spawns, the perk can be broken 14 seconds into the match, permanently. It takes time to protect the totem, time in which survivors who are not totem diving get to work on objectives for free. In other words, it's a 50-50 of whether or not the killer loses a perk slot that could've bought them more time in a match, or gains a tiny bit of time over other generator slowdown perks.
PGTW differs from Hex: Ruin in that PGTW has limited, conditional uses that require a time sink to use.
Let's assume that the survivors in a given match have the same approximate Great Skill Check hit rate that I do (I would consider myself 'decent' at survivor - I know what to do, how to do it, and have the experience to pull it off, but still make mistakes fairly often. Have confirmed this hit rate on the skill check simulator I linked in the OP, by the way) - approximately 66%. Assuming the same numbers that you assumed before, with 9 skill checks per generator, that means the survivors hit 3 good skill checks for 21 seconds of regression per generator. Given that the first 3 generators happen simultaneously (in the scenario I described in the OP), that is 21 seconds of overall delay when survivors play efficiently and don't stack up on the same generator. During the second iteration of generators, 2 are being done simultaneously, for another 21 seconds of delay, totalling 42 seconds of time being bought by Hex: Ruin per match against 'decent' survivors.
Now, with PGTW in the situation I described in the OP, the killer only has 1 or 2 chances to use PGTW at all, hooking 1 or 2 survivors before the exit gates are powered. Even then, it takes more of the killer's time to go to generators and kick them, and for what? 40 seconds of regression, 2 seconds less than Hex: Ruin? Also limiting killer choice to high-mobility killers so as to not waste too much time using PGTW in the first place? Why bother?
In other words, I don't think Hex: Ruin is picked more because it is easier to use (as in some cases, it is not easier to use), but because it simply provides the most added time possible, to a single match, for a single perk slot.
Then again, I suppose that's just nitpicking. But here we are with half an essay of it...
Do you have any other ideas for the killers that need that little bit of something decent in their kit? Trying to think of things for Doctor, but not coming up with anything short of a full rework, or reversion to his previous state (like the one I made for Doc when he was in OG release state, pre-buff, at https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1291816880504583142/).
Imagine if they made Clown stumble while drunk, similar to the wiggle effect while carrying a survivor, but made him slightly faster as well. Would that be balanced?
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@Almo said:
Hi!
Just wanted to address one common concern I've seen from the community. "They nerfed Ruin so it wouldn't be hard for new Survivors."
That's not quite what the intention was. This is subtle, but bear with me.
New Ruin is in fact really brutal for new Survivors... because it is insidious. They have no idea what's happening, and they struggle to get gens done at all. That little zap effect when you take your hands off a gen? Barely noticable to a new player who's panicing because of the L3 Terror Radius they are hearing. It's not even noticable that the gen is regressing twice as fast as if the Killer had damaged it.
What we wanted to do was not "make it easy for new players" but "make it less frustrating for new players". In playtests with newer Survivor players, it was 4k with 4 or 5 gens up almost every time. But they didn't hate their time in the game as much because those red skill checks weren't in their faces.
I'm looking forward to playing on the PTB with some of you tomorrow; see you in the Fog!
When you make such an important change that affects everyone, your intentions don't matter. The results do. And the community reverse-engineers their perception of your intentions, based on those results. Because of this, the community will reject any statement of your intentions that do not line up with this perception... which is good, as this means that they view you as at least competent developers (in the sense that when you make a change, the community believes that it is the change you intended to make). Because the alternative (that the community at large has been refusing to consider until recently) is that you (the devs) don't put thought into your development decisions and make unintelligent/shortsighted decisions. The community already knows and accepts that you are not bipartisan/even-handed when it comes to development decisions in regards to killer vs survivor. But now, because of questionable development decisions and subsequent questionable developer statements, the community is questioning your competency as a developer, to the point where they are telling you things that are common sense or can be thought of with a moment's thought on the subject (which should tell you how their perception of you has declined, as the implied message in those statements is that you are either incapable of such common sense or minimal thought). Proof of this, is that I'm telling you how a community image works, when you are the supposed professionals. Your decisions and statements are only harming your own community's image of you - you should put some thought into your next move, or it will only harm your image further.
If this forum had a downvote button, I can only imagine the amount of downvotes that developer posts would be receiving at the moment, and deservedly so. Looking how the OP has 51 upvotes, compared to the 131 upvotes of the first comment that is contrary to the OP, it is not difficult to hypothesize that this would be the case.
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@Carpemortum said:
So you're an ex rank 1 player, who cant manage to play good enough on your own to pip at rank 20?
Sounds like a load of bs to me. Even playing well and dying first at 20 would get you a pip, or two, and advance you to 19.
Rank 20 killer is even easier to pip. I know, I went in as nurse with a bs build after coming back and got a 4k with no addons. Its rank 20. Unless you afk, you basically guarantee a pip, if you were playing like an actual rank 1.
Unless you just hid and died every game. In which case I doubt you were rank 1...
@LordGlint said:
Dont gotta escape to pip up. Just keep playing and you'll pip up, since its REALLY easy to pip at rank 20 and impossible to depip until you hit yellow ranks.
@Poweas said:
To be fair, I started 2 days ago again at rank 19 (from Rank 1 before my break, and I have lost all my old skill) and I've STILL got to rank 13 with ease. You should just try not to carry the team, or escape, just do 2 gens, unhook a bit, get the killer to chase you, run them for a while, and take the facecamp. It's a pip. That's survivor btw.
As killer, I started at rank 15 and am now rank 10.
@Mringasa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/993231#Comment_993231
This for Survivor side. Don't aim to escape, just do gens, get some unhooks, and get chased a bit. You'll be out of the browns fast.
As far as Killer goes though... good luck with that. Unless you are playing with a solid build, you'll get trolled and bullied by the deranked SWF teams that prey on newer Killers to feed their egos. Just make sure when you get the true new player games that you play with them a lot more than normal. You cannot sacrifice too quick, and extending chases will net you more emblem points. Sad to say it, but you need to be really "nice" in the brown Ranks to actually rank up quickly.
As survivor, it's annoying, but fairly doable, agreed. Hit rank 15 from 20 after a few hours, but I was the only one in my matches (as survivor) that was gaining any rank when I did gain rank. Was commenting on the general experience and speaking on behalf of the other people in the lobby, when it comes to survivor.
As killer, couldn't get a single match over the course of a few hours where I was allowed by the game to pip, til the last two matches I just played, with 7-10 minute queues, against obviously deranked SWFs, on that had map/key and the other with toolboxes. At least they didn't DC, even if their intent was to ruin my gameplay experience. Once I hit rank 18, started getting matches in 5 minute queues and it's been smooth sailing.
Yes, I get the whole 'if you're experienced, it shouldn't be a problem', and really, it wasn't a problem... because I am experienced. It was more frustrating and boring than anything else, really, and I had nothing else to do while sitting in queues so I made this thread.
But for anyone who isn't experienced? The rank 20 experience must suck, because it feels like getting nowhere.
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ITT: Hypocritical OP complaining about them perceiving 'the other side' (killer) as review bombing, taking the only recourse they have to poor development decisions, when 'their side' (survivor) has done the same thing time and time again during the game's development. Why do you think we have SWF? Survivor review bombing.
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This will come off as long-winded, but rather than make a suggestion with no context, that gets laughed out of the thread for others not understanding the underlying assumptions/context, I'd rather provide a background/basis for any assumptions that I work off of. Here goes:
What would make me okay with the Ruin 'rework' (nerf nuke)?
Getting something comparable in its place. Hex: Ruin, as it was, was a perk to extend early-game.
Why does/did early-game need to be extended?
Because even the most braindead survivors can hold m1 on a generator for 80 seconds, and since the killer can only chase one survivor at a time, the 3 survivors not being chased can all get on separate generators within 20s of match start, having their generators completed within 100s of match start, without fear of being interrupted. Any survivor worth their salt can lead a killer around on a lengthy chase with all the map assets that are intact at the start of the match. It's not about winning the chase or not getting caught - it's about wasting the killer's time.
At this point (100s into a match), there are 3 unharmed survivors with the 4th either being chased or hooked, with 2 gens left. Since the killer can only chase potentially one of those 3 unharmed survivors, the other two can either sacrifice the hooked survivor (or repair more gens without such a dilemma if the first chase is still going, assuming that this takes an additional 110 seconds, 30s to find a gen and another 80 to finish it) to have a free guarantee at repairing both remaining generators, or hook save with one survivor in limbo and the other being guaranteed safety on a generator and repeat the process for the final generator.
This results in the match being over in 210-300 seconds, under 4 or 5 minutes, with 2-3 total chases, and 3-4 escapes. For setup killers such as Hag, Trapper, Demogorgon, Oni, and Myers, this is not enough time to set up their abilities enough to use them for map pressure (and if they did/could take the time to set up, they would surely lose by default). For mid-tier killers such as Freddy, Ghostface, Pig, and Wraith; low-tier killers such as Clown, Leatherface, Doctor, Legion, and Plague, respectively, this spells their doom. This is why the high-rank meta ignores them, generally. It's why Spirit, Nurse, Hillbilly, and Huntress reign at the top - because with a combination of luck and skill, they can win chases quickly, allowing them time with which to exert map pressure in early-game. Keep in mind that I'm talking about default kits with low-grade through decent add-ons, not some of the one-off high-tier add-on combos that make certain killers far more viable than their standard kit normally permits.
So, let's talk about Hex: Ruin itself: what it did, what that spelled out for gameplay, and why it was used to the extent that it was.
Let's dispel the notion that Hex: Ruin was overpowered, while introducing it. It was a Hex perk (which can be removed by holding m1 for 14 seconds on the associated totem) that gave a small, non-threatening punishment to hitting good skill checks (7 seconds of repair progress (3 seconds of making the generator unrepairable, as well as 5% progress which is another 4 seconds)), as well as removing the additional progress from great skill checks.
In regards to gameplay, this means that if a survivor hit great skill checks, or had few to no skill checks appear at all, then Hex: Ruin would have no effect on their repair progress. Only if the survivor both had skill checks appear at all, and hit good skill checks, would it affect their repair progress. If they could not handle hitting great skill checks, they could disable the associated totem or tap the generator to completion.
This perk was incredibly widespread because survivor is braindead easy to the point where most survivors deemed hitting skillchecks as a mechanic that they did not need to improve at (Of course, there were those of us who would use (http://www.mistersyms.com/tools/gitgud/) between matches to actually improve at the game, but we were apparently few and far between. Skill checks used to be much harder, too, as you'll see if you use that git gud skillcheck simulator). As a result, survivors of all ranks had their generator repair progress slowed down by this perk, to the point where more survivors than not decided it was a better idea to gen tap to avoid dealing with Hex: Ruin, rather than learning how to power through it. Since gen tapping is also slower than normal repairing, Hex: Ruin had still accomplished its purpose in the early-game of matches - slowing down generators. Specifically, it kept 3 generators from being completed in the first 100 seconds of the match.
Traditionally, it has been held that Hex: Ruin is a mandatory killer perk. I both agree, and disagree with this. Some killers are powerful enough to not require it, and those are the killers that are commonly seen to be successful against the better survivors. The weaker killers, on the other hand... they need a helping hand, and the one that reached out to them is called 'Hex: Ruin'.
Fast forward a bit of time, and Corrupt Intervention is released with The Plague. It prevents the 3 generators farthest from the killer from being repaired for the first 100 seconds of the match. This doubles as a radar for the areas in which survivors are likely to spawn, for inexperienced killers. This could have replaced or been interchangeable with Hex: Ruin, if not for one simple fact - survivors could work on generators closer to where the killer spawned. All Corrupt Intervention brought to the table was 30 extra seconds to the early-game phase of the match, since the killer can only chase one survivor at a time, and they still face the same scenario, only slightly closer to where the killer spawned. As such, it sank mostly into obscurity. It is occasionally useful on the Pig, however, as it can sometimes buy her enough time to start putting RBT's on survivors. Not that many Pigs run it, when Hex: Ruin is a superior alternative.
Fast forward a bit farther, and Ghostface's release brings Thrilling Tremors into DbD. It's a perk that works as a radar and doubles as generator repair prevention. While it's handicapped by its cooldown and requirement for a survivor to be picked up (requiring the killer to already win a chase, and in the sequence I described earlier, it's almost impossible for some killers to win a chase early enough for this perk to be useful at all), it's also a shame that it is only useful on killers that can end chases quickly and have enough mobility to arrive at non-highlighted generators near-immediately (since survivors can move away from non-highlighted generators). This perk brings the Nightmare onto the high-rank scene, being able to teleport to generators that are currently being worked on. In that sense, it is a semi-potent alternative to Hex: Ruin for the Nightmare, which he requires, since his main mobility is locked behind a cooldown at the start of the match.
Now we have Freddy (partially), Hillbilly, Nurse, Huntress (if they lived the Navy Seal copypasta and are a competent sniper), and Spirit, who do not necessarily require Hex: Ruin to be able to have a chance against survivors in the first 100 seconds of a match.
No, it's not the size of the maps that are the main issue, currently. The only noticeable part of maps that affect the better killers' performance, is whether it is mainly an indoor (close-quarters) or outdoor (long sight lanes) map. To avoid being inconvenienced by large maps, killer players already limit themselves to specific killers, because it's not worth the frustration of moving at the speed of a tortoise (4.6 metres/second) across a map 150 metres across. But that's a problem with killer diversity, and has nothing to do with performance in general in early-game for the better killer choices (as they already have better mobility), which is where Hex: Ruin came into play. Remember, if the maps are reduced in size, then perks such as BBQ & Chili and Knockout (Knockout has already been made useless by SWF, but whoever is reading this gets the point, I'd wager) become less useful. As such, smaller maps are not necessarily better.
So, it becomes clear that the alternative to reducing map size, is making the worse killers have better mobility, chase presence, and/or map presence. This could be done through improving some killers' kits, and/or through multiple perks that would be as useful as Hex: Ruin, without stacking, so as to be interchangeable and promote build diversity.
Killer power examples:
-the Trapper's traps could spawn armed and in more convenient/camouflaged locations. After all, it's supposed to be the killer's home court.
-when the Wraith rings the Wailing bell, all survivors hear ringing for X seconds, making them unable to hear skillchecks or terror radius.
-in a match against Leatherface, survivors would hear Texas Chainsaw Massacre-related sounds that would throw them off.
-in a match against Leatherface, survivors could come across bodies (perhaps of duplicates of themselves) that have been badly mangled by chainsaws, giving them a 'Fear' status that could affect their ability to do much of anything.
-the Plague could be able to do certain actions to 'corrupt herself' and skip the requirement of having a survivor cleanse themselves to access Corrupt Purge, for more chase presence.
-the Plague could use Vile Purge out of the other end for increased speed around the map by propulsion from behind. Yes, this is more of a meme idea than a serious one.
-the Plague could use an alternate version of the usual spit, where she spits out an explosive ball of Vile/Corrupt mess that detonates and affects all survivors within range.
-the Legion could be able to down injured survivors with 2 hits of Frenzied attacks.
-the Legion could have an active ability where they teleport from one side of a survivor to the other, requiring a line of sight break in close proximity to activate. The Legion is 4 individuals, after all, so teamplay on their part should be considered fair.
-the Clown could gain some sort of boost for walking through his own poison clouds, or break out into insane laughter that would 'Unnerve' all survivors for a duration (similar to Unnerving Presence).
-the Clown could have a bottle or two of booze that he could down during the trial to enter an alternate state. The Clown hunted trophies off of his victims and enjoyed that part of it - maybe being reincarnated as a violent drunk could unlock an alternate kit for a short duration, making him more of a horrifying clown than a poison-oriented hunter.
-the Clown's poison could have a lasting effect on survivors' bodies throughout the match, as his concoction would take greater effect when given more time to circulate around someone's system. This would make him a killer that grows more lethal the longer he can stall survivors.
-Myers could have a limited amount of stalk-free tier ups that he would generate over time. His power is Evil Within, after all, so why should the source of his power always be external? Even if it is a shorter/inferior version of tiering up, it would be an improvement over his current status.
-Myers needs to have the 'Exposed' warning removed in tier 3 of Evil Within until he actually downs someone with it, and it should only last for that specific instance of t3. That way, people can't look at the right side of their screen and know when Myers is a threat or not - they will have to pay a single bit of attention for once.
-Myers should not have a map-wide sound when tiering up. The sound should only be heard within a set distance of him when he tiers up, or when a player is downed by him if they were not in the initial radius. Even Wraith does not give away as much about himself as Myers does, and Myers is supposed to be the stalker. How can he stalk when he can't even be stealthy about his maneuvers?
-Myers needs to be able to gain evil from stalking multiple survivors at once, like he used to be able to. There is no excuse to keep him nerfed because rank 20s complained about an aspect of him, years ago. He's not Freddy, and shouldn't be treated like Freddy. People know that there is no increased threat from multiple people staying in his sight line, and even go so far as to taunt him in groups.
-Ghostface was a killer who stalked people until he learned every intricacy of their routines, then planned their deaths down to the minute detail. It would be interesting if he could look at a map asset and see which survivors have frequented it, or be able to predict a survivor's current location by knowing their routine. Perhaps something colour-coded, or with symbols (for colour-blind players)?
-The Pig needs a tiny bit more early-game pressure to truly get the ball rolling, since there are Jigsaw boxes all over the map that give people an early warning to look out for the Pig. Perhaps she could have 1-3 special stealth dash attacks with double or even triple range and slightly increased movement speed from the usual, each match. They'd give a relatively fair edge - if used properly, they could give hits; if used improperly, they could be wasted against a pallet.
-I'm not going to spend time making suggestions for the Doctor, so close to a Doctor change. There are plenty of ideas floating around these forums for that, currently.
Perk examples:
-a perk that builds up faster, the longer a killer's ability is unused, that gradually increases their movement speed until their next hit. It would greatly affect Myers, Freddy, Legion, Ghostface, Plague, and Leatherface, as their powers are useless for the majority of matches.
Is the better solution to rework the bottom-tier killers so they do not have garbage kits? Yes, of course. But Behaviour does not seem to want to go that route, as evidenced by the fact that we have had Hex: Ruin for a while, but bottom-tier killers for far longer and in greater numbers (I mained OG Wraith, OG/post-OG nerf Hag, post-nerf Freddy, pre-buff Doctor; you name the steaming hot pile of garbage, and I can tell you about the regular experience with it); as well as that we are losing Hex: Ruin, but the bottom-tier killers are apparently here to stay.
But, who knows? Hopefully they address the real issue.
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I think that, even with either of the buffs you mentioned, Premonition still wouldn't be viable in comparison to the next best alternative, such as Alert.
On top of the already mentioned buffs in your version two of the perk, reducing the cone from 45 degrees to 30 degrees for a more reliable/accurate determination of the killer's position and reducing the cooldown to 10 or 15 seconds at tier 3 would not make it overly powerful, but it would sure go a long way towards improving it. And if the double buff on top of what you already suggested sounds like too much, keep in mind that the detection cone being reduced in size would require a survivor to be more accurate with their aim, making the perk take slightly longer to activate and be slightly harder to use.
Additionally, if a Spirit is haunting, what does Premonition trigger on? The invisible Spirit mid-haunt, her left-behind shell, or both? Out of curiosity.
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@Poweas said:
@shootaman777 said:
@JanTheMan said:
Honestly is bloodlust even needed anymore?Since Bloodlust has never been a comprehensive solution to the problem it tried to solve, it was never technically 'needed' (since a 'solution' to the 'problem' is what was 'needed', not a failed patchwork attempt at mitigating it).
It was back then. You shoulda saw how broken those infinites were. Look back at videos 2 years ago and you'll see.
I've been around since beta, and at every time in between. I know what they were like.
But by the time they implemented Bloodlust, they needed more than just Bloodlust to solve the chase problems. -
@JanTheMan said:
Honestly is bloodlust even needed anymore?Since Bloodlust has never been a comprehensive solution to the problem it tried to solve, it was never technically 'needed' (since a 'solution' to the 'problem' is what was 'needed', not a failed patchwork attempt at mitigating it).
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By killer:
-Trapper's C Padded Jaws
-Wraith's UC "Blind Warrior" - Mud, C "The Beast" - Soot
-Hillbilly's UC Grisly Chain, UC Speed Limiter, C Chainsaw File
-Every Nurse add-on OTHER THAN VR Campbell's Last Breath, R Ataxic Respiration, R Fragile Wheeze, UC Catatonic Boy's Treasure, UC Dark Cincture, and all the Common add-ons
-Huntress' UR Iridescent Head, VR Glowing Concoction, R Pungent Fiale, C Amanita Toxin
-Myers' UR Judith's Tombstone, VR Lock of Hair, VR Scratched Mirror, VR Vanity Mirror, R Hair Bow, R Mirror Shard, UC Glass Fragment, UC Reflective Fragment, C Blond Hair
-All of Hag's add-ons are good
-Leatherface's UC Grisly Chain, UC Speed Limiter
-Doctor's UC Scrapped Tape, C Maple Knight
-Freddy's UR Red Paint Brush, UC Cat Block
-Pig's UR Amanda's Letter, VR Amanda's Secret, UC Face Mask
-Clown's UC Kerosene Can
-Spirit's UR Mother-Daughter RingAt least, those are the contenders, as far as I can see.
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R1 killer, ~10 minutes.
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@Master
Nor am I saying that that is how physics work. If you had read what I wrote, you'd see that I was trying to quantify the distance loss per time spent from a loop, in terms of speed loss in terms of traveling in a straight line.As I stated, I don't think you understand what I'm saying, since the example that your provided is entirely irrelevant to the subject at hand. I'm talking about the difference in relative speed. I'll try to explain it in a third, different way, since perhaps it was not clear enough when I explained it the first two times.
Let's say that we have two cars racing on a small/medium-sized NASCAR-style race track.
Car A is smaller and slightly slower than the other car, while Car B is larger and slightly faster than Car A. They both move at different, but constant speeds.
On every corner, there is a shortcut that Car A can take, but that Car B can never take.
Every time that Car A uses the shortcut, they gain instantaneous extra distance on Car B.
If Car B and Car A started on opposite ends of the track going around in the same direction (clockwise/counterclockwise), and they had both been following the tightest path around the normal track, there should be a given amount of time that it should take for Car B to catch up to Car A.
However, Car A takes shortcuts that Car B can not take. So, every time that Car A takes the shortcut results in an increased gap to cover for Car B. Depending on how short the straightaways are on this course, Car A may even be able to GAIN distance away from Car B along the track due to taking so many shortcuts in rapid succession.
^This is the case that occurs when a survivor loops a non-blinking Nurse or an Evil Within tier 1 Myers.
On a track with medium-length straightaways (comparable to loops with fewer tight corners and longer walls), the instantaneous extra distance gained from taking the corner shortcut at regular intervals, creates a set amount of increased distance between Car A and Car B that takes a set amount of extra time to be covered, but does not necessarily perpetuate a gap between the two cars.
Let's take this example and quantify it in terms of the two cars moving on a long linear track in the same conditions and direction, with Car A starting a distance ahead of Car B, and no shortcut on the track.
This would consist of Car A teleporting a set distance forward on the track from its current position, at regular intervals of distance (or time, as it can be looked at in terms of either one, since the cars are moving at a constant speed).
Now, instead of this teleporting, we can quantify this distance increase in terms of a speed decrease of Car B.
We remove teleporting from the equation, and theoretically/relatively slow down Car B to the speed at which they end up at the same distance behind Car A while moving at a slower speed, as they would've been while moving at normal speed at the exact moment that Car A finishes teleporting. This produces the SAME OVERALL RESULT, and this is how I am theoretically quantifying such an instantaneous distance gain, as a speed decrease.Does that make sense, at least?
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@DarkWo1f997 said:
shootaman777 said:@DarkWo1f997 said:
The killer usually loses about 5-8 meters at pallets and windows. This is why bloodlust exists, the killer will eventually be quick enough to start gaining ground on the survivor and rendering the loop useless.
I was not talking about, nor did I intend to mention the hot mess of garbage that is bloodlust.
Additionally, I was not mentioning the distance gained at a pallet or window. That's generally an easy set of calculations.
(pallet drop time + pallet break time) * (survivor movement speed of 4.0 meters/second) = distance gained by a survivor by dropping a pallet when the killer breaks it. Since the majority of pallets are safe pallets that the killer is forced to break anyways, this is generally the applicable calculation method of pallet distance gain.
(killer vault time) * (survivor movement speed of 4.0 meters/second) = minimum distance gained by a survivor by going through a helpful window.
Bloodlust is usually not worth factoring into these calculations, since most pallets force killers to break them to resume the chase if the survivor knows what they're doing, and bloodlust is lost by breaking pallets. Usually, more bloodlust is lost by playing the back-and-forth game at the safer pallets, than bloodlust is gained, since the game doesn't count it as a chase unless the survivor is running at a close distance in line of sight. Bloodlust is pathetic at the moment.
Ok, well killers do not lose speed for any reason. No calculations needed. The only possible logical thing you might be implying, is the distance lost when moving around obstacles that survivors can go through. There is literally actually no speed slow down at all.
You’re basically asking if there is BloodFlacid, or BloodSenile. No. No there isn’t.
I'm not talking about a speed slowdown. I'm talking about having reduced overall distance/second on a survivor (down from the normal 0.6 meters/second of normal movement speed killers, 0.4 meters/second of slower movement speed killers, 0.1 meters/second of Evil Within tier 1 Myers, or -0.04 meters/second of the Nurse) due to the increased distance the killer is forced to cover by walking around a loop.
The way this would be calculated, is that the instantaneous extra distance created by a survivor by initiating a loop, would be divided by the time it would've taken to catch up to them in a straight line across the same distance, and then subtracted from the killer's movement speed. This would show the speed differential quite nicely, in easily understood terms - in terms of catching up to a survivor in a straight line.
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@DarkWo1f997 said:
The killer usually loses about 5-8 meters at pallets and windows. This is why bloodlust exists, the killer will eventually be quick enough to start gaining ground on the survivor and rendering the loop useless.I was not talking about, nor did I intend to mention the hot mess of garbage that is bloodlust.
Additionally, I was not mentioning the distance gained at a pallet or window. That's generally an easy set of calculations.
(pallet drop time + pallet break time) * (survivor movement speed of 4.0 meters/second) = distance gained by a survivor by dropping a pallet when the killer breaks it. Since the majority of pallets are safe pallets that the killer is forced to break anyways, this is generally the applicable calculation method of pallet distance gain.
(killer vault time) * (survivor movement speed of 4.0 meters/second) = minimum distance gained by a survivor by going through a helpful window.
Bloodlust is usually not worth factoring into these calculations, since most pallets force killers to break them to resume the chase if the survivor knows what they're doing, and bloodlust is lost by breaking pallets. Usually, more bloodlust is lost by playing the back-and-forth game at the safer pallets, than bloodlust is gained, since the game doesn't count it as a chase unless the survivor is running at a close distance in line of sight. Bloodlust is pathetic at the moment.
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@Master said:
You seem not to understand what you are talking about.There is no actual speed loss. The survivor just has to run a shorter path then the killer has to because the survivor hitbox is smaller and he can get closer to the wall.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
Last I've heard from the devstreams, the killer and survivor have an identical collision capsule. They've said this, regardless of the numerous fat shaming spots that have shown up over time. Do I believe that the capsules are identical? Not really. But there is another suspect at play here, regardless of whether or not what the devs have claimed to be true, is true.
Colliding even slightly with the barest touch on the slimmest of objects brings the killer to a full stop. Whereas, a survivor can hug corners and walls while continuing to move at their full speed.
This forces the killer to keep a minimum distance between themselves and an object to be able to keep moving, effectively forcing the killer to take a longer path around what a survivor could take a shorter path around.
Assuming that both the survivor and killer take their shortest reliable path around a given object; the killer remaining at a fixed small minimum distance around the objects' shortest border while traversing tight sections and moving in a straight line wherever possible between open areas to the next tight corner, while the survivor does the same without having to maintain a fixed minimum distance; the distance differential between a survivor and killer around a given loop can be calculated.
Since distance is a function of speed and time, the distance differential creates a technical differential in the relative speeds of a killer and survivor, in that they cover different distances at different speeds and the increased distance to cover makes it take longer to cover, making the killer effectively gain less distance/second on a survivor around a loop in a chase, by definition being 'slower'.
So, yes, it is indeed an effective speed loss.
Since how much the killer is technically 'slower' than usual relative to the survivor would vary by position around a loop, that is why I asked for average values.
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I apologise for writing a paragraph, but this question is one that requires a paragraph to explain:
1) The Question:
What is the speed loss by a killer (or speed gain by survivors) when going around each loopable tile in the game, in meters/second?
2) What we already know about it/why the question is being asked:
It is understood and acknowledged that, due to movement and collision mechanics, survivors are able to take shorter paths around loops, effectively increasing their distance/second (speed) traveled over the killer, or decreasing the killer's distance/second (speed) traveled in relation to the survivor.
For a fact, I can say that the overall/average movement speed differential is less than -0.4 meters/second for killers, since slower movement speed killers (Hag, Spirit, Huntress, etc that move at 4.4 meters/second) still can EVENTUALLY catch up to survivors around a loop, even though it takes a ridiculously longer amount of time than it would take for the standard 4.6 meters/second movement speed killer (Trapper, Leatherface, etc).
However, the differential is greater than the difference between Evil Within tier 1 Myers' movement speed and that of survivors, since he can be infinitely walked around several small, irregularly shaped objects with no chance of EVER catching up to a survivor.It would also vary by loop, since some are tighter than others (such as Autohaven loops), and some loops (such as the tall hay bales on Coldwind Farm) don't have many tight turns but have long pathways.
Rather than doing time trials around every loopable tile of every tileset in the game, which would take hours upon hours with multiple people while recording and many subsequent hours doing calculations, I'd prefer to ask the devs directly since they have all the numbers, after all.
