shootaman777
shootaman777
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A similar idea, of separating ranked and casual, was suggested on the Steam forums over a year ago, and since then that thread has grown into the largest thread in DbD Steam forums history, and it's still going. If the devs don't care about the largest thread they've ever seen, even with all the work and effort poured into it by the players, then there's no point to both that thread, or this one that you've made.
The thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1480982338956455265/The thread I linked, contained a similar suggestion to the one that you made, but from the both sides of the subject: the casual side who wants a place to play casually, where they can all get together and have a good time; and the non-casual side who wants a skill-based place of win/loss based on that skill, a place where it's not necessarily the case that 'everyone always wins and we all always have a good time'.
I don't know. It's just discouraging at this point. Not that I intend to discourage you from trying to accomplish something here; I'm just putting this here in case it can help.
Good luck.
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As a p3-max Billy, here's a couple of tips (some of which have been mentioned before in this thread, but I figure that the ones you hear more, are probably the better tips since more people agree on them):
-Start the match by chainsawing to the farthest side of the map, into a position that can get you long sight lines or high ground, by chainsawing down a long chainsaw lane. On The Game, Lery's Memorial Institute, or Haddonfield, you're screwed no matter what you do.
-Every killer requires Hex: Ruin, or an alternative that I'll mention later. This is so that, during the first chase where it's a matter of wearing the pallets on the map down, 3 gens aren't completed while the killer is only able to chase 1 survivor at a time through timewaster pallets/windows.
-If the survivor being chased is healthy and you have enough time to chainsaw them before they get to a safe spot like a window or pallet, always go for the chainsaw. Backrevving (using the chainsaw only when being right on the survivor's back) is one of the most effective techniques for landing chainsaws. If survivors are running around corners as you chainsaw them, that's great. Set your DPI very high (I play on 8,000 DPI mouse sensitivity) and use the Billy's insane turning for the first half a second of the chainsaw sprint, to do a 90 degree turn around the corner and nail them. There's a very simple counter to when survivors try to 360 your chainsaw - don't move. If you stop moving just before they do their 360, they'll end up running in a small circle directly in front of you and they will be an easy hit. A 360 being successful, requires the killer to be moving INTO the survivor to pull off. Which is why one of the greatest counters to a 360 is to not lunge, but that's not an option with the chainsaw. If someone's pulling all sorts of fancy jukes, take your time keeping the chainsaw as close to fully revved as you can without starting the chainsaw sprint, but more importantly without losing your focus on the area around you and the survivor in question.
-If a survivor is injured, don't chainsaw them unless they're an easy target that you want more points from. It takes longer to recover from a chainsaw sprint than a swing, after all, and Dead Hard is very easy to time with a chainsaw sprint, whereas you can fake out a Dead Hard with regular swings. My favourite way to counter Dead Hard is to get right up on the survivor's back and watch them waste Dead Hard, since they were thinking you were going to lunge at them from max lunge range.
-When hooking a survivor, put pressure on generators by prioritising the survivors shown by BBQ on generators as chainsaw sprint targets. When chainsawing to them on the generator, always regress the generator before following them into the chase, since any extra distance they gain on you can be quickly recovered with the chainsaw and the priority is to slow down generator repair progress. If you're in a rather lengthy chase to the point where you think someone is saving/about to save the hooked survivor, break off the chase and chainsaw back to the hook. It's all about what's the best/most rewarding to commit to - the survivor in a chase, or one of the survivors by the hook.
-You need to either maintain constant momentum of putting survivors on hooks, or ensure that a survivor dies early in the game to have a chance by the time of endgame. Camping is generally a last resort for the Hillbilly, but if your Hex: Ruin is popped early and survivors are cranking out those generators, there's nothing else you can really do but camp (outside of playing Nurse, of course). To the end of constantly cycling survivors onto/off of hooks or getting an early kill, camp and tunnel as much as is helpful.Now, all of the above was just with basic Billy. Hex: Ruin and BBQ & Chili are killer staples, and the Billy should be running BBQ in every build. However, here's where things get interesting. Remember how I mentioned that there was a Hex: Ruin alternative, earlier?
My current Hillbilly build is Hex: Haunted Ground t3, Hex: Devour Hope t1, Make Your Choice t3, and BBQ & Chili t3.
-Hex: Haunted Ground t1/2/3 lights up 2 totems at random, and upon being broken by a survivor, every survivor is Exposed (able to be one-shot downed even by a regular swing) for 40/50/60 seconds.
-Make Your Choice t1/2/3 activates when someone unhooks a survivor when the killer is more than 32 meters from the hook. The survivor who did the unhooking/saving, is Exposed (able to be one-shot downed even by a regular swing) for 40/50/60 seconds.
-BBQ & Billy is BBQ & Billy. 'Nuff said.This is the fun part:
-Hex: Devour Hope: the killer gains special abilities based on how many tokens they have from this perk. Tokens are gained by survivors being unhooked while the killer is more than 24 meters from the hook. All tokens/buffs are lost by the killer when the totem is cleansed.
Tier 1 - At 5 tokens, the killer can mori anyone of their own choosing, regardless of who has/hasn't been hooked to get those 5 tokens. When the first mori after 5 tokens are obtained occurs, all survivors will receive a notification through the proficiency system that the killer is running Hex: Devour Hope.
Tier 2 - At 3 tokens, all survivors are Exposed until the totem is cleansed. At 5 tokens, the killer can mori anyone of their own choosing, regardless of who has/hasn't been hooked to get those 5 tokens. When a survivor is hit when the killer has 3 or more tokens of Devour Hope, regardless of if they're injured or healthy, or if they were hit by a regular swing or an insta-down such as the chainsaw, all survivors will receive a notification through the proficiency system that the killer is running Hex: Devour Hope.
Tier 3 - At 2 tokens, the killer gains 10% bonus movement speed for 10 seconds, 10 seconds after they hook a survivor. At 3 tokens, all survivors are Exposed until the totem is cleansed. At 5 tokens, the killer can mori anyone of their own choosing, regardless of who has/hasn't been hooked to get those 5 tokens. When a survivor is hit when the killer has 3 or more tokens of Devour Hope, regardless of if they're injured or healthy, or if they were hit by a regular swing or an insta-down such as the chainsaw, all survivors will receive a notification through the proficiency system that the killer is running Hex: Devour Hope.In my opinion, Hex: Devour Hope tier 1, the lowest tier, is the best tier of Hex: Devour Hope. This is because survivors will have no way of knowing that the killer is building up stacks of Hex: Devour Hope until moris begin happening, other than by stumbling upon the totem.
And to discourage that, Hex: Haunted Ground is in place and Hex: Ruin is not equipped, to seem to provide only downsides to survivors for breaking lit totems, and provide survivors with no incentive to break lit totems until it's too late.
Make Your Choice is there to allow the killer to not have to tunnel the unhooked survivor for more tokens of Hex: Devour Hope, and to be able to cycle which survivors are being hooked, so that they're ALL alive when mori time comes along, so they can ALL be mori'd.
Of course, this whole strategy hinges on being able to hook 5 survivors before the exit gates are opened, which is easier said than done in high rank matches. And if Hex: Devour Hope is cleansed prematurely, there's really not much left that the Hillbilly can do without Hex: Ruin.
Just figured I'd mention it, since even though it's risky, it's incredibly fun when it works and there's nothing in this game as satisfying as 4 Hex: Devour Hope moris coming out of left field in a single game.
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@jmaximo93 said:
I don't know how to reduce the size of a quote so this is a reply to the comment above me. All Marth88 did was prove that having very skilled players in SWF is broken as hell. Everyone already knows that. I would love to see him do this experiment in solo survivor.
With the Tyde video I mentioned, how can you not see that he was saturating to make his point? His tone, his mannerisms, and his gameplay all showed that he didn't actually want to make a video on how to play killer fairly. He played in a way that extreme, horribly toxic survivors want killers to play. Again, you can watch other streamers like Panda or Tru3 and you'll see what a fair killer playstyle looks like. I don't think tunneling is wrong in many situations and go ahead and face camp SWF but when it comes to solo play, people like me get grouped into the entire survivor pool. Tyde never mentions solo survivors because he isn't really looking for solutions, he's just complaining to appeal to his crowd.
There are a crap ton of toxic survivors like there are toxic killers. I've had matches where the killer hooks me then just keeps hitting me and face camps. You don't consider that toxic? Both sides do things that the other side thinks is unfair, so dont just blame survivors. If face camping isn't considered unfair to Tyde, then he shouldn't complain about pallet loops because both are just strategies.
On the point about how Tyde shouldn't hold back when being survivor, I think you missed the point. I'm not saying it's wrong of him to loop or gen rush, I'm saying that he then proceeds to tbag, flashlight the killers at the exit gate, and stall games. He has to do gens and live, but being a jerk to killers to "prove a point" makes him just as bad as the survivors that he's complaining about. It's like if he says he has a problem with people stealing so he steals from someone to show people how bad stealing is. He's still stealing...By 'doing the experiment as solo survivor', are we talking about playing exclusively for the hatch?
That depends on your definition of 'fairly'. When I play killer, survivors either rage at me and tell me (in between telling me to kill myself) that they want me to play in the way TydeTyme played, say gg, or say nothing. That's pretty much what it boils down to. A 'gg' or saying nothing doesn't tell me much about anything, but the directed salt sure does. Again, if you're wondering what I'm talking about, check out the 32 pages of salt on my profile (https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045252862/).
You say that he was exaggerating to make a point, but the salt that has been sent my way and the amount of survivors who thought they could tell me how to play killer better than I was already playing killer when I had just 4k'd in our match, is no exaggeration. The people who REEEEEEEEEE at the slightest thought of camping/tunnelling even if it's not actually camping or tunneling, do exist and in significant numbers. That significant amount of people would say that how he played in that game, is EXACTLY how killer players should play.Back in my day, soloqueue survivors played as well as what you now would call a 'troll SWF'. They were as coordinated and skilled, without needing voice comms. They followed a 'code', after all. And back in that day, SWF was even more powerful, to the point where queues were usually 30 minutes long at a minimum for 3-4 SWF parties because of being dodged over and over (because only people who didn't know what they were in for would play against them). The quality of survivor players has declined significantly since then, but the potential of survivors has not. As such, playing against every set of survivors as if they're the best set of survivors, is the only way to go about combating them. If that entails camping/tunnelling, regardless of SWF/solo, then that's what it entails. There is no fair/unfair to SWF/non-SWF. Soloqueue survivors are just as powerful as SWF but it takes some degree of skill to close the gap, whereas voice comm SWF is easymode.
I'm not going to attack or defend TydeTyme's gameplay, because I don't watch it. I'm commenting on this subject having seen just the video in the OP of this thread and the 'how survivors want killers to play' video.
Now, here's where you're dead wrong in your perception of 'toxicity'. Since you're obviously not a longstanding veteran player or member of the forums, there's no way you could've known about this, so I'm not going to blame you for not knowing it. It's been a very long time since I read Alrec Balrin's post on the subject and I don't remember it verbatim, so I'll try to paraphrase it and hope that it doesn't turn out too terribly:
Throughout the game's history, survivors have almost always received what they explicitly wanted. You need look no farther than Freddy's nerf, the Shape's nerf, moris' nerf, bloodlust's nerf, removal of 3 o'clock skill checks, Hex: TotH, Shadowborn's nerf, NoED's nerf, PWYF's nerf, UR/STBFL's gutting, IG's nerf, Nurse's nerfs, Huntress' Iridescent Head nerfs, SWF's creation, pallet stuns happening at the beginning of the pallet drop, the SC/SB/DS nerfs that have yet to in any way decrease their usefulness, facecamping's removal, hook time increases, etc. The devs confirmed that looping was an exploit due to a combination of collision and movement mechanics that effectively decrease the killer's movement speed in a chase, but in the same breath declared that survivors will not be punished for using it nor will it be removed from the game. And, continuing the same breath, facecamping (a killer exploit that abused movement and collision mechanics) was then announced to be scheduled to be removed from the game, which happened soon after. Facecamping is dead, if you hadn't realised that, by the way. I'm responding to your "If face camping isn't considered unfair to Tyde..."If survivor players complained about something on the forums long enough, then the devs did something about it, usually what the survivor players were requesting that the devs do about it.
<If you're looking for more examples, I suggest taking a look at: https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1621724915795099897/. The survivors' list is linked to it, in case you're considering it to be a one-sided item.>
I don't know what happened to the formatting up here^, but I can say for sure that it's not intended.
That's why when people imply things like 'if it's in the game, it's perfectly acceptable and it's balanced according to the devs', it just grinds my gears.
-Camping is a killer's dev-intended and only non-Nurse resort to ensure a minimum of a single kill against competent survivors (where if the devs were to remove it, they would see a near 100% decline in their killer player population because playing killer would be mechanically unwinnable against even half-decent survivors).
-Looping is an non-dev-intended but dev-confirmed-exploit that survivors lobbied to keep in the game and not be punished for, and that is the only reason why it still exists in the game and they are not punished for it.How you can compare the two and say that 'if one is 'toxic', then the other is, too', is beyond me. As I've already explained, they're not both 'valid strategies', since one of them is a dev-confirmed exploit (looping), and the other is a dev-intended game mechanic (camping).
Personally, I consider no in-game tactic 'toxic'. 'Unbalanced' and 'toxic' are two separate things, after all. 'Toxic' is an adjective that I use to describe players who hurl vitriol in the post-game chat or on Steam because they're sore losers, and hackers.
So, no, I would not consider a killer hooking a survivor and then whacking them over and over again to be toxic. I would call that 'genrush and escape' to the unhooked survivors, and 'entertainment' for the killer and hooked survivor.
Well, that IS the point. It's one thing to prove that looping and genrushing are broken. That's not hard to prove, and many have proven it to be true before. If you can genrush and loop, and can mess around with the killer and stall the game for as long as you want, and teabag/flashlight in the process (which gives the killer more time to work with in a chase) and get away with it, it points to an even GREATER imbalance than just genrushing/looping.
Let's say that your set of survivors genrushed the killer and refuses to leave. If they all stay in the map, stalling for as long as possible to the death, that just goes to show how long (on top of how long it took to power the gens and open the exit gates) survivors have of safety from poorly designed/arranged map assets. That also furthers the argument that survivors could do just as well with far fewer map assets designed in their favour, killing two stones with one bird.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Your example would be valid in a place where police gave a free pass to people who stole even though it is illegal, and if TydeTyme were to be one who was consistently stolen from, but starts stealing and publicising it for all to see as an argument against the police policy. He's not grandstanding to convince the players that there's a problem with looping/genrushing (the reasonable/rational ones already know that) - he's doing it for the devs' benefit, since they don't seem to realise it. -
Now, while what TydeTyme says makes a good bit of sense, there are a few aspects of his argument that I'd say could use a bit of revisiting.
First, this game is too far gone from the point where his arguments would be in any way relevant. The devs made a decision when working with/under Starbreeze, to balance and market the game towards the casual player. They made this decision for the same reason they decided to throw away the results of the 'which killer do you want us to rework next' poll between the Doctor, Hag, and Wraith and just rework the Doctor - because it appeals to a wider audience and will result in greater profits.
The devs have done nothing but test how much crap killer players are willing to put up with, then give the appearance of 'trying to balance the game', all the while having survivor buffs and killer nerfs on the backburner (flashlights being able to save during the pickup animation, as well as the Freddy nerf are examples of this). Survivors have been the power role since day one, yes. And the devs don't intend to change that.
As a result of this, the majority of hardcore players interested in playing a balanced asymmetrical game have quit Dead By Daylight. They realised that the devs do not and have never intended to cater to them, and jumped ship knowing that they'd been abandoned. The majority of the fans of the genre were hardcore players, and now that they're gone, trying to turn this game into the horror/slasher experience that it was originally supposed to be would be worthless, because there'd be none of them around to enjoy it.
Now that we're left with nothing but the casual players and have lost the majority of hardcore players that were actually interested in Dead By Daylight (as the dev diaries described it), balancing the game would kill its entire population of casuals. As TydeTyme said, 'this is a party game'. Yes, and the killer is the pinata by design.
If the devs' reaction to Marth88's experiment, their "we already knew this, you didn't prove anything and just ruined a bunch of peoples' days for no reason" wasn't enough to convince someone of this, then try going through either this forum or the Steam forums, and looking for mentions of a strike of any sort, post-killer strike. You won't find any, because the mods have been instructed by the devs to stealthily delete them. And these posts don't violate anything in the rules of either forum, too. But apparently killer players incorporating complaint into their reasoning in an attempt to get survivors nerfed (since all survivor players need to do to get killers nerfed is to complain) isn't allowed. Only survivor players are allowed to complain.Second, Self-Care increases the healing efficiency and speed of survivors (which is a response to his passing comment about Self-Care). Since I'd assume you've read the OP of my Self-Care thread (since you've commented on it several times), @Wolf74, I'd assume that you know what I'm trying to say here. Also, are you Sturmwolf from the Steam forums? I'm not sure, but had to ask either way. For those of you who don't know what I'm referencing, here's a TL;DR of how that thread is relevant to this point -
"Self-Care heals at 50% speed, so it takes 2x time to heal; 20 seconds as opposed to 10.
So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor. And supposedly, that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction.
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same).
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.
And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, Self-Care is actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency."
Now, while the numbers are slightly off (base healing time is not 10 seconds as I thought it was, but 12), the ratios are aligned so that this math will always result in proportionally increased values to the point where the conclusion remains the same.@jmaximo93 said:
While I agree with some of Tyde's opinions, I think he is the worst and most toxic DbD youtuber out there. He makes some good points, but when he goes to "prove" his points he does it with such exaggeration that it makes his points look invalid (his video on playing how a survivor wants a killer to play). Then he essentially says that these are facts not opinions. It ends up making him look wrong and childish. When he plays survivor to prove his point, he plays like the most toxic survivor ever (to emulate how some survivors play) and it really is distasteful.The thing is, how TydeTyme played in that video (how survivors want the killer to play), is how many survivors believe that a killer should play. The pages upon pages of salt on my Steam profile, as well as what shows up in post-match chat are a decent indication of this. Additionally, I've recently been playing with a survivor streamer who truly believes that 'there is never an excuse to camp because it's just not fun', and that killer players who camp are 'pieces of #########'. When they die in a match, they'll accuse the killer of 'camping and tunnelling' when they died on their third hook when no camping occurred, and there had been 2-4+ hookings of other survivors in between their 3 hookings that led to their death. Word for word, this is what they do and have said that they think.
When he's correct, in that this is EXACTLY the way that many survivors want killers to play, it's not his opinion - it's fact. It's sad that what seems like an exaggeration, is the truth.How is that kind of gameplay (how survivors can play when not holding back) 'distasteful' or 'toxic'? It's playing within the rules of the game, and isn't it respectful to an opponent to not hold back since holding back would belittle his opponent? Ironically, it's how survivors have been playing for years (before the better ones got bored of always winning at survivor, then either quit DbD outright or played killer then quit DbD), yet looping/timewasting/hook swarming have not been considered toxic by survivors in the past.
Eh, just a couple of thoughts on the subject.
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The proof of the matter is the devs' statistics that they've given out on devstreams about perk usage. If I recall, Empathy and/or Bond are usually on that top 10 list.
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That is their argument. That, for all survivors' insistence that when killers have aura reading it is ridiculously broken, survivors do not use aura reading even when they have it available (even though, according to them, it's incredibly broken). And you've just agreed with and furthered it.
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@Rattman said:
@shootaman777 said:
@Rattman said:
@shootaman777 said:
Have you ever seen Boil Over and Open Handed x4? It's brutal when the killer can't see hook auras within 46 meters (14 base meters + 32 (4*8 meters))Opened handed don't affect Boil Over
Tested it in KYF a while back and Open Handed did affect Boil Over. I don't know if that's changed (since I can't see the killer's point of view in public matches while I play survivor), but I'll test it out later when some people get online.
I can help you with tests, btw. Need to check something too.
I can get on in about 3-4 hours. If you want to add me so we can do that, here's a link to my Steam profile: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045252862/
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@Radiant said:
Not so sho?
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@Radiant said:
The mistake was to create Teacheable perks, in the first place.Without teachables, every survivor player will play Claudette and every killer player will play Nurse or Hag. They're just the best options, at that point.
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@Rattman said:
@shootaman777 said:
Have you ever seen Boil Over and Open Handed x4? It's brutal when the killer can't see hook auras within 46 meters (14 base meters + 32 (4*8 meters))Opened handed don't affect Boil Over
Tested it in KYF a while back and Open Handed did affect Boil Over. I don't know if that's changed (since I can't see the killer's point of view in public matches while I play survivor), but I'll test it out later when some people get online.
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Have you ever seen Boil Over and Open Handed x4? It's brutal when the killer can't see hook auras within 46 meters (14 base meters + 32 (4*8 meters)) while carrying a survivor, on top of the increased struggle effect. On top of that, since nobody expects it, the killer usually flips out when it's used against them. Run that with Unbreakable/Tenacity and Self-Care/No Mither, and you've got yourself a solid loadout.
While that would make Boil Over more useful, it can be fine as-is.
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@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.Well, there are a few things to hash out with that idea.
-Which scoring events (the full list) would give Self-Care charges?
-How many Self-Care charges would each scoring event give, and how many 'charges' would be comparable to a full heal?
-Would the Self-Care user start the match with Self-Care charges, or only be able to use Self-Care after acquiring more Self-Care charges in the match?@M2Fream said:
I dont care about the speed. Hell, they could put it up to 75% speed but as long as it is infinate, it is broken. I want dishing out hits to multiple survivors at a time to mean something.SC should opperate on a charge system, so here is my change
Self care starts with 4/5/6 charges with a maximum of 8/10/12. where 8 is enough to heal yourself. You can use charges to heal yourself at 60% normal healing speed. If you do not completely heal yourself, the stitching will come undone at 2% per second or 5% per second while running. You gain 1 charge back every 35/30/25 seconds you spend in the killer's terror radius
Would this idea be like Stakeout, where charges are only acquired while NOT in a chase in the killer's terror radius, or would your suggestion have survivors generating charges in a chase as well?
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In my opinion,
Doctor:
I'd agree with the change of a blanket increase to mode-swapping time, only if during the forme swap, the Doctor had normal killer base movement speed (4.6 meters/second) as opposed to Treatment forme movement speed (4.4 meters/second).
This would work together well with the slight movement speed increase after changing formes, and if the numbers were worked properly, it'd be a rework rather than a blanket buff.
I'd say that the shock therapy range is fine as it is. The reason that most people just miss with the shock, is because they don't know the trick to make their range 'longer'. The trick is to aim between a 35-45 degree angle to the survivor, to catch where you'll think they'll be with the longest range with the absolute maximum range. Or, the Moldy Electrode (a common add-on) can be ran for a 25% range boost, for that little bit more range that someone could very well use.Huntress:
To buff the Huntress, I'd allow one-shot perks to apply to thrown hatchets. Hex: Devour Hope, Hex: NoED, Rancor, Hex: Hallowed Ground, Make Your Choice, etc. Or, if that's too powerful, then make it so that any one-shot down hatchet under the effects of these perks puts a survivor in a Borrowed Time state, if the survivor is hit by the hatchet while healthy.
I'm against removing cover from the maps. Removing it from around loops removes mindgames, which nerfs other plodder killers. Removing random cover throughout the map nerfs stealth, and I'm against any relatively unnecessary nerfs to stealth. The game was originally supposed to be stealth-based for survivors (hide or die), and every update that moves farther from that ideal, is not a positive update in my book.Pig:
I agree with your first two suggestions for improving the chase experience for the Pig, but I'd go about your third suggestion slightly differently.
On another thread, someone suggested a nerf to Sprint Burst to make it not neuter ambush killers, and that was to not activate Sprint Burst until the survivor has been sprinting for anywhere from 3 to 5 seconds. That way, a successfully executed ambush attack will either always land or result in a pallet being wasted depending on who gets the drop on whom.
Other than that, I'd like to have the base movement speed of ambush mode increased from 3.76 (I think) to 3.8-3.95 meters/second (survivors run at 4 meters/second, for reference).Trapper:
As long as the Traps are limited to 6 (9 with add-ons) maximum, I'd be fine with being able to refill at lockers. It would certainly decrease the amount of time necessary to place a web/network of traps.
The problem with the Trapper, as I see it, is that his ability being useful depends on one thing, and one thing only - a survivor making the mistake of not noticing and stepping into his traps.Wraith:
Before his recent buff when I used to main him (as you will probably be able to tell by the end of this post, I have a bad habit of maining the weakest killers), he has always been considered the weakest killer in the game, and I'm not entirely sure if that's changed, but I'd rather not make a comment on the current situation that would be biased by a potentially outdated sentiment. I haven't played Wraith since he was recently buffed, sadly.Cannibal/Leatherface:
I don't think those proposed changes would help Leatherface, at all. None of it enables him to maintain any map pressure, nor does it make him the least bit threatening to an experienced survivor. For survivors, it'd just a matter of learning the new charge speed and lunge, and dropping pallets slightly earlier/taking fewer greedy risks in a chase.As a way to adjust for the penalty of Leatherface hitting solid objects with the chainsaw, I'd have there be two separate hitboxes for the chainsaw run - one for objects, and one for survivors. The detection zone for hitting objects with the chainsaw would be from the end of the first fifth of the left end of Leatherface's collision box, to the leftmost end of the final fifth of the right side of Leatherface's collision box. The detection zone for hitting survivors with the chainsaw would remain the same as it currently is.
This would prevent survivors from being able to 'loop' around any small object in the map, forcing Leatherface to take a longer path around the small object than he normally would because Leatherface's chainsaw hit detection box extends at least to the far left and right ends of his collision circle, forwards in a straight line. That means, currently, if Leatherface is in a chainsaw run parallel to and touching a straight wall, and turns even a fraction of a single degree towards that straight wall, it will result in a tantrum and a near-guarantee of an escaped survivor. And how can anyone expect a person to be that precise, especially with an irregularly shaped map object?
Hell, even if the smaller detection box that I suggested to only apply to hitting objects, also applied to hitting survivors, it would ultimately be a buff to Leatherface (even though on the paper, it'd technically be a nerf).I've never given much thought to Leatherface buffs (before now) because I've never thought that there's anything to salvage in his kit. It's a horrible kit that only creates one situation where Leatherface has any advantage over a survivor - close proxy camping. Otherwise, survivors with half a brain won't bunch up together and allow themselves to be multi hit by a chainsaw. And that still leaves the problem of getting someone to a hook in the first place, which is hard enough without any tools in his kit to get the drop on survivors without them being able to reach a place where they force Leatherface to use M1 rather than his chainsaw, removing his only advantage (and removing the only reason to choose Leatherface over ANY other killer). Rancor, Monitor & Abuse, and Tinkerer help to alleviate this problem, but most survivors run Sprint Burst anyways, so getting the jump on survivors and being up close and personal on survivors with a chainsaw before they know what's happening, usually results in the same thing that happens without those perks to avoid detection - the survivor getting to a place that makes Leatherface's chainsaw irrelevant before they can be hit by it. Enduring/Spirit Fury can be used to alleviate Leatherface's main problem, but that only works once per match (if at all) because when the survivors experience it even once, they drop pallets early while still looping Leatherface for the same duration. I'd have to extensively test Enduring/Spirit Fury on Leatherface and get back to you on that to be able to say anything definitively, but that's what I've come up with, theoretically.
Shape:
I'd definitely agree that his Evil Within 1 needs a base movement speed increase, because as is, survivors can run him around a rock infinitely with no danger of being hit or stalked. This is due to the way collision survivors favour survivors, in that killers are slowed to practically a standstill upon even the tiniest collision, whereas survivors can hug walls at full speed. This makes the killer have to effectively cover more ground than the survivor to follow the same path. This is what leads to the existence of looping, and why playing as an EWt1 Myers, even with the Mirror, is practically impossible against half-decent survivors.I think Myers is in a decent place in chases, being able to have an increased lunge range in EWt3, but his greatest weakness is his inability to put pressure on multiple survivors at once without those survivors in question having made enough mistakes to put themselves in an unfavourable position. When Myers first came out, he gained EW charge faster proportional to the number of survivors he was stalking (2x the normal rate from stalking 2 survivors at once, etc). I think that this nerf was unnecessary, and should be reverted so that Myers gains some form of counterplay against things such as coordinated rushes by survivors.
Additionally, even though I know this game is being increasingly balanced around the casual rather than the best players (leading to a highly unbalanced situation when the best players square off, in the favour of the survivor), I think it's too much to tell survivors that they're being stalked with a sound queue if they didn't notice they were being stalked for 3/4 of an Evil Within tier. If they didn't notice they were being stalked in that amount of time, then they weren't paying attention to their surroundings, and I don't think it's a good thing to have the game pay attention to the survivor's surroundings in their place. It discourages survivors from learning the basic skills of the game, such as being able to multitask with their camera as well as what they were already doing. Perception, awareness, and agility were what the devs intended to be the main focus for survivors in a match, and I think that making two out of the three of those things unnecessary is not a good idea.
Hag:
If you're looking for someone who knows Hag inside out for an accurate opinion on the Hag in the current or any past meta, you're looking for Michi, the self-proclaimed 'King of Hags'. He lives up to the title, and is leagues above every other Hag player I've ever seen, in terms of skill and ability to devastate even the most coordinated SWF team. He's the only person I've ever seen make the forced camera turn of Hag traps into her main lethal weapon. And this was before her recent buffs, even in her original state where she was considered to be even worse than the OG Wraith, for ages.As a former OG p3 Hag main myself, I'd agree that she is exactly how you describe her. Deadly and damn near unbeatable in the right hands, but in inexperienced hands is still potentially a lethal killer due to above average camping potential and to always being able to catch survivors off-guard. She's not sometimes referred to as 'the jumpscare killer' for nothing, after all. She's the only killer with passive map control, in that she encourages survivors to cross the map by crouching to avoid traps, slowing down survivors' progress. By survivors gaining more experience against the Hag and Urban Evasion's buff, she's become slightly weaker, but that hasn't changed her mechanics or ability to manage map assets. She can lock down indoor maps such as Lery's or the Game with little to no counterplay, though she struggles in large/open maps in inexperienced hands that don't know about checkpoint traps. If her traps are budgeted properly, her player types/handles survivors properly (assigns movement/gameplay patterns to specific survivors based on comparing them to previous gameplay experience, then keeping track of who's who and who's where), and her predictions of survivor movements based on last-known-positions/typings/lanes/chokepoints/map control are accurate, then there will never be a match where the Hag is NOT in control. Which is more than I can say for any other killer, including Nurse. And that's saying something.
Spirit:
Ironically, she was recently nerfed. She used to have 20 total seconds of haunting, which was reduced to 15 seconds. I'm just going to copypasta this since I don't want to retype it:
"Decrease the charge time for activating the haunting ability. At 2.5 seconds at a standstill, a survivor sprinting at 4.0 meters per second will have gained 10 meters on the killer on top of whatever distance they already had from the killer. At 110% movement speed, the killer will be moving at 5.06 meters per second. That means that the Spirit, chasing after the survivor in a straight line, will gain 1.06 meters per second on the survivor and will have to spend at least 9.5 seconds chasing after the survivor in Haunting to be able to end up in the same relative position to the survivor as when they entered Haunting. That's far too long as a MINIMUM time to be in Haunting to be able to catch up (and remember, these are the MINIMUM numbers, of if the Spirit activates Haunting when they are right up on the survivor's back). Using her power shouldn't give survivors an advantage - it should give the Spirit an advantage."Now, here's the kicker: post-nerf, the Spirit has to spend 12 out of 15 total seconds catching up to a survivor at minimum (remember, the Haunting meter drains while she's CHARGING the Haunt, too, so it takes 9.5 + 2.5 seconds to catch back up to that survivor that the Spirit was already touching when they began to charge Haunting), and can only gain 3.18 (3 seconds of gaining 1.06 meters/second on a survivor) meters total (at most) on a survivor who knows about this math, by Haunting.
To a survivor who understands the Spirit's mechanics on this level, she's a Leatherface without the chainsaw's one-shot bleedout potential. She has to run add-ons to make her power begin to be somewhat beneficial to her rather than to survivors, and that's saddening.On the topic of what you mentioned about the Spirit, the change I'd give to her sound cue is to make it like the Nightmare's/Freddy's - it would be slightly louder/softer when looking at/away from the killer. Having to factor directionality as well as distance into listening to the Spirit's sound cue would add an element of skill into pinpointing it, without adding a large amount of danger to survivors in general. Plus, there's moving grass to pay attention to on most maps, so the sound mechanic tends to be largely unnecessary (other than to help prevent the Spirit from succeeding at a distanced ambush).
Clown:
He's at low mid-tier at the moment, in terms of lethality. The reason why people overestimated him so much in the past, was because of a glitch caused by his add-ons that increase movement speed while reloading. They applied that speed bonus for the entire duration of the match rather than exclusively during bottle reloading. Now that that has been patched out, he has moved from solidly mid-tier, to low mid-tier.His bottles work wonders on maps with medium-long sight lanes, enabling the Clown to slow survivors down at a distance to catch up. On CQC maps with limited sight lanes (such as Haddonmemes, the Game, and Lery's), he loses most of his advantages and has to settle for second-rate bottle tactics to even be able to use his power successfully, let alone effectively. I distinguish between the two, by defining a 'successful' bottle throw as one that accomplishes its intended generally helpful purpose, whereas I define an 'effective' bottle throw as one that scores the Clown a hit that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
For example (a general example, then a specific one for each):
Effective - An accurate close-mid range throw that forces a survivor to not be able to reach a safe location without first taking a hit. In a race to a pallet, landing a throw on a survivor that slows them to the point of being hit before reaching the pallet is an effective bottle throw.
Successful - A precise throw that forces a survivor to forsake their current or intended 'safe' location, providing an advantage for the Clown to (at least partially) catch up to a survivor or to force a survivor into an less safe/timewasting location.
Both - A bottle throw that removes multiple safe aspects of a location, forcing a survivor to rely on nothing but luck or the hope that the killer makes a mistake to avoid a hit, when just a moment ago they were perfectly safe to the point where they could teabag the killer for a while and still have time to escape. Running Exhaustion (countering Lithe, Dead Hard, and Balanced Landing) and/or extra Hindering and/or extra bottle effect duration add-ons and landing a bottle throw around a long loop such as the Coal Tower, Mother's Dwelling, or Badham Preschool's main building area, can shut that down if done perfectly, sometimes requiring multiple bottle throws to accomplish.
Neither - A complete miss that doesn't redirect a survivor to an intended destination, or a bottle throw that wastes time that could've been spent hitting the intended target with no benefit. That's fairly straightforward, and a specific example is not hard to imagine.The reason that the Clown is LOW mid-tier, is because there are normally more safe tiles on every map (even with perfect bottle throws) than the Clown has time to chase people through before the genrush defeats him. Most of the 'safe' areas that are unsafe enough for the Clown's bottles to be effective are already unsafe enough without the bottles, where using them barely results in an improvement in performance over the standard M1 killer. Clown bottle throws used at their best in practice, are ones that capitalise on survivors' mistakes, or ones that set them up to make mistakes that can be capitalised on. However, since most of the time the Clown's kit ends up forcing him to rely on survivors making mistakes, he suffers greatly against experienced survivors that make fewer, if any, mistakes. At the end of the day, he's in the same position as Leatherface, but slightly weaker since the Clown's power can only be used to slightly augment his standard M1 killer gameplay, but can never directly damage survivors.
When it comes to playing the Clown, a few things separate the good/great ones from the average ones. The good/great ones only throw bottles that bring about results and they budget the bottles very well. Timing reloads, during and out of chases, to not lose any time on survivors is a difficult, yet rewarding skill to master. Most Clowns plan to chase, use their stock of bottles unreservedly to end the chase, hook the survivor, then reload. Sometimes, this is very effective; other times, it is not. Often, the way you can tell the good/great Clowns from the average ones is that they know when to cut their losses, ranging from abandoning a chase with an injured survivor 1 hook away from death in a favourable position to scatter groups of survivors in a less favourable position with devastating effect, or running down some pallets in a 'safe-pallet dense' area of the map by quickly feeding stuns to survivors to make it more convenient for future chases in that location.
It should also be noted that there is no movement speed penalty to charging a bottle throw, so the Clown can move at full speed with a fully charged bottle for instant use. It's not always a great strategy since it blocks a lot of the player's screen and may lead to them missing a flash of survivor clothing from behind cover, but it can also bait survivors into using Sprint Burst early (and potentially at a distance) because they think a Clown is charging an imminent throw rather than hunting with a charged bottle.
Nightmare:
He's my most recent previous main and I could go on and on on his number for ages, so I'll try to be more concise, rather than write a novel on this killer. I'll start off by responding to your suggestions about Freddy:While your suggestion to decrease the dream transition state timer from 7 to 3 seconds would somewhat help Freddy score an early hit in a chase, it also guts his second most powerful add-on: the Class Photo, which shows all survivors as auras while any survivor is in the dream transition state. 3 seconds is barely enough time to scout positions while also chasing the survivor in the dream transition state, let alone figure out WHO is where, which is the more important part for Freddy. Figured it'd be worth a mention, though you mentioned that you were generally not discussing add-ons here, and I make it a point to not use add-ons while playing killer since they're always consumed.
At 112.5/115/117.5/120% movement speed, Freddy moves at 5.175/5.29/5.405/5.52 meters/second. Meaning that, as opposed to Freddy (moving at 4.6 meters/second) gaining 0.6 meters/second on a survivor (moving at 4.0 meters/second) in a chase, Freddy (moving at 5.175/5.29/5.405/5.52 meters/second) will gain 1.175/1.29/1.405/1.52 meters/second on a survivor (moving at 4.0 meters/second) in a chase with 1/2/3/4 survivors asleep. It is more than likely that the only time Freddy will have 4 survivors asleep for enough time to put the increased movement speed to good use, will be in the endgame when there are no generators to use to wake up with skill checks. At this point, Hex: NoED would become a must-run for Freddy, bumping him up to 127% movement speed (5.824 meters/second movement speed, or 1.824 meters/second gained on a survivor in a chase with 4 survivors asleep) with an insta-down. That means that, with 1/2/3/4/4+NoED survivors asleep, Freddy gains 1.96/2.15/2.34/2.53/3.04x the distance he would normally gain on a survivor. That, alone, would cause survivors to riot. With even a single survivor asleep, it would create the impression that Freddy would be moving at double speed, since he would be covering double the distance/second on a survivor. Then, let's factor in a LUNGE, at 150% of the current movement speed. Freddy will lunge at 7.7625/7.935/8.1075/8.28/8.736 meters/second for the 1 second duration of the lunge, covering 3.7625/3.935/4.1075/4.28/4.736 meters towards the survivor in the lunge. That's near moving at 9.2 meters/second, double the base killer movement speed. If you're not sure what those numbers mean, this is what it means: if Freddy has even 2 survivors asleep, it's as if he were swinging at the afterimage of where the survivor was a second ago (and if he could hit that (at a normal movement speed lunge) from where he started the lunge, he will score a hit on where the survivor is now, a second later), because he covers a full second's distance within that swing, and that's not to even mention that the hit detection hitbox is at some fixed distance in front of Freddy, giving him that little bit more range.
While I'd like to see that in the game, it's unrealistic to think that'll ever be implemented.
I'd be more than willing to trade seeing survivors as auras, for that level of movement speed.However, I see Freddy as being almost fine as-is, apart from needing a slight boost in capability in a chase. As-is, he has a lot more power over a match than he is given credit for.
First off, he decides who pips and who doesn't. If a Freddy puts nobody to sleep, nobody can get more than a safety pip. If the first survivor Freddy finds loops for a particularly long period of time, that guarantees everyone in the lobby a safety pip or less as long as Freddy doesn't down/hook that survivor. He is one of the few killers who can punish survivors, if not for vengeance then just out of spite. I think that's very interesting, and fits well with his lore.
Second, survivors can't stop a Freddy from tunneling a specific survivor. All it takes is Sloppy Butcher to prevent someone from being able to pick up a downed survivor during their dream transition state, and bodyblocks against Freddy don't happen unless Freddy allows them.
Third, Freddy is the best endgame killer, at the moment. If 3 or fewer survivors are alive when the exit gates are powered, and they're all asleep and healthy, Freddy has practically already killed them all. At base, it will take them 40 seconds to open the exit gates while asleep. Add Remember Me to the mix, for what would've been between 5-30 extra seconds of gate opening time, but with Freddy's ability in the mix is now 10-60 seconds. Now, survivors are stuck opening the gates for 50-100 seconds at minimum.
In this position, with constant wallhacks on the survivors, he can easily juggle them all to death, especially after having likely cleared out most of the pallets in the map while tunneling one survivor to death. This is usually the obsession, to remove the person who only needs 40 seconds maximum to open an exit gate. Hex: NoED is not a bad perk to have at a time like this, since it can leave survivors with no opportunity to Self-Care or medkit heal. And even if tunneling the obsession to death doesn't work by the time the exit gates are powered, Rancor can now shortcut the obsession directly to death.In other words, the survivors either all get a free pass to escape (with at most a safety pip or derank in the process) or all die, with this strat. In that sense, Freddy is a killer who never loses. But hey, to each their own, I guess.
Hillbilly:
Other than having no counter to loops (which is the main cause of the massive difference in lethality between him and the Nurse, even though they're technically the 'best two' killers), I'd say that the Hillbilly is relatively balanced.Nurse:
Agreed on the add-on nerfs to max range increasing add-ons. There's no escape from someone who can pinpoint you from halfway across the map and near immediately snipe you down. With a maximum range pair of rare and uncommon add-ons, the Nurse traverses the full distance that a survivor gains on her from the speed boost of being injured, in a single blink. Which is ridiculous. Since it negates the entire mechanic of the speed boost when hit, it doesn't make sense to leave it in the game. Personally, what I'd prefer is to remove any range-increasing add-on at or above 'moderately', and only leave a 'slightly' increases blink range add-on as a common add-on. -
@Sarief said:
M2Fream said:
SovererignKing said:Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.
NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeYCouldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.
Doesnt that mean self care rewards failure? You know, with the getting hit and all...
That is bad interpretation.
You cannot design like that.
It is there, because it is neededI'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that Self-Care exists in its current form because it is needed?
What belongs in the blank, of: 'You cannot design ___ like that.'
What do you mean by a 'bad interpretation', and what makes it a 'bad' interpretation as opposed to a 'good' interpretation? -
@Williamz said:
Self care is good where it stands. There are perks that can impact as well.Do you have any evidence or reasons to back up those two assertions? If so, I'd love to hear them.
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@Nickenzie said:
Hello, I been playing Spirit for around 12 hours and I'm gonna list some of her flaws as well as some solutions to how fix them! My goal is to make her like the Nurse in terms of rewarding your skill while not being as strong as the nurse! Enjoy this problem & solution thread!
Problem 1: (Unreliable combo)
The Spirit can barely combo with her power after attacking a survivor. Basically when attack a survivor and you use Phase Walk to combo, you'll barely be able to catch up to the survivor assuming your tracking is on point!
Solution: (Faster Phase movement speed)
I can't say how much of a movement speed increase she needs but she does need some kind of speed boost! If I was forced to say how much she needs right now, I would roughly say a 25% speed increase to her Phase Walk. Now the point of this is to allow her to quickly attack a survivor then finish them off with her power. However this can also be used for better map pressure, giving survivors less time to react to her presence, and faster mind games!
Problem 2: (Not rewarding skill & power too punishing)
When you land a successful Phase Walk and attack the survivor the moment you exit your Phase Walk, you still get punished with a horrible 20 second cool down. This by itself just feels awful since you did very well to predict the survivor's movement and now you have to wait.
Solution: (Instant % recharge upon a successful Phase Walk & slight increase in Phase Walk recovery)
During the speed boost period when you exit your Phase Walk if you attack a survivor, instantly recharge 7.5 seconds of your power. Additionally her power will take 15 seconds to fully recharge if it was fully empty. This now rewards you for being on point with her power and is less punishing when you miss predict a survivor's movement.
Problem 3: (Hard to predict a survivor's movement during Phase Walking)
Since scratch marks are delayed and can be hidden in grass, this can often be confusing to the Spirit player! Scratch marks are the most important thing besides listening that can help the Spirit player predict a survivor's movement and it feels so awful when the scratch marks are unreliable.
Solution: (Disable chase music when Phasing, make scratch marks more brighter, & increase the bonus when you exit your Phase Walk)
She might not need all of these solutions, this is your heads up!
Disabling the chase music can be a HUGE plus because it often blocks out noises caused by survivors which can be the thing that decides if your Phase Walk will be successful or not. Scratch marks need to be tremendously more brighter and needs to be more transparent through grass during a Phase Walk because it's the ONLY thing she has besides sound so it needs to be reliable! Additionally, if you guys don't like brighter scratch marks, you can increase the bonus when she leaves her Phase Walk so she can correct herself just a little kinda like how nurse can use her second blink to correct herself for a quick attack.
Compensation: (If the Spirit is over powered with these changes)
-The developers can decrease her movement speed to 96.25% (Nurse)
-Nerf her add-ons while keeping her kit strong
-Maybe all of the above if she is really out of controlPlease if you have anything that you'll like to say about the Spirit, I'm here to discuss your questions, complaints, and your suggestions! Please be respectful and be civilized, thank you for reading!
Personally, I'd say that there are some very simple solutions to most of the problems with the Spirit that you presented.
Decrease the charge time for activating the haunting ability. At 2.5 seconds at a standstill, a survivor sprinting at 4.0 meters per second will have gained 10 meters on the killer on top of whatever distance they already had from the killer. At 110% movement speed, the killer will be moving at 5.06 meters per second. That means that the Spirit, chasing after the survivor in a straight line, will gain 1.06 meters per second on the survivor and will have to spend at least 9.5 seconds chasing after the survivor in Haunting to be able to end up in the same relative position to the survivor as when they entered Haunting. That's far too long as a MINIMUM time to be in Haunting to be able to catch up (and remember, these are the MINIMUM numbers, of if the Spirit activates Haunting when they are right up on the survivor's back).
Allow the Spirit to see survivors while charging the Haunting. This will allow the Spirit to do some mindgames with Insidious, as well as to have a more accurate direction to head in when the Haunting activates.
Increase the Haunting total amount and allow the Spirit to reactivate Haunting before the Haunting meter has refilled to its full amount. This way, the survivor being chased will always have to pay attention to the Spirit, unless they want to get ambushed and/or mindgamed, which opens up the possibility of the survivor in question making more mistakes.
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However, these are just patchworks to this killer's kit. Her kit is trash. Having to allow a survivor to gain distance on you, then trying to catch up at a negligibly faster rate while not even being able to properly navigate towards them to the point where you usually would lose more ground than you would gain by activating the Haunting, is just worthless as a killer's kit. The killer is better off not using the power at all. Which is indicative of a terrible killer power design, like the Wraith's or OG Hag's. -
@Kind_Lemon said:
In response to the original post:While I completely agree on the power of self-care as a time saver to the extreme for survivors, I do not think that self-care's healing speed should be nerfed, although that would be the easy solution. Instead, I would rather the devs implement a new status effect, much like they did with blood lust, where self-caring without a med-kit gives the bloody hands status, which slows down all actions and decreases all skill check zones until either 60 seconds of consecutive actions have been acomplished, or that survivor has either used or been heald by a medkit.
A side note on Small Game: This perk should be changed to show the auras of traps and totems within 8 meters while in a chase. Small Game should be more useful against Hag and Trapper (I've run into more traps due to small game because I thought the ding was for the totem right next to me and not the trap in front of me).
That's an interesting idea.
Though, I have a few questions about it:
By what percentage would action speed be slowed per tier of the perk? By what amount would skill check sizes be reduced? Would the bloody hands status disappear faster under the effects of Vigil? Would there be a quick action where you could use a rag from a medkit to wipe those bloody hands off, or would it only be cleared by fully medkit healing?
Depending on the answers to those questions, it could seem like a solid rework plan for Self-Care.
I may go through the replies to this thread, and take some of the ideas and incorporate them into the OP. Though I'll probably wait for some more replies with more ideas to flow in, to get them all in at once rather than have to do it over and over again and potentially have the thread locked for a while, like it was when it was first posted.
On the note of Small Game, your rework suggestion is actually a reversion to how Small Game used to be (though 6 meters was the range back then), back when the Trapper was the only trapping killer. But the devs nerfed Small Game, because it was essentially a hard counter to a specific killer that made that killer's kit entirely useless. Back in the day, when Saboteur was meta, SaboJakes with Saboteur and Small Game would go around destroying all the Trapper's traps and teabag all the way to the nearest infinite.
Personally, I don't want Small Game reverted back to its former glory. I don't think a perk should guarantee a survivor's safety, and that survivors should have to survey their surroundings carefully at all times, rather than have a perk that takes the thought, awareness, perception, and general skill out of it. This is because traps are easy to spot and easy to predict the location of, so having a perk to do something for you that you could easily do without it, just says you don't want to have to think during a match (against a Trapper or Hag).
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@xxaggieboyxx said:
gonna ask for peoples profile when they say killers are op and they play both, now
While it's not an unwise policy, it's fine so long as you don't use someone's experience as a reason to ignore their feedback entirely. Doing so, would defeat the purpose of discussion.
It's a trick from the Steam DbD forums. Over there, a person's profile is 1 click away, and credibility is determined by those achievements. A private profile on the Steam DbD forums is considered to be a copout, and the connotation comes across that person in question is 'hiding behind a private profile'. If only those forums weren't a dumpster fire. Which is why I'm not a fan of the anonymous style of these official forums, because it's hard to know who to take seriously. But this is the forums the devs 'look at' (I say that in quotes, after they ignored all the negative feedback on the Spirit and released her as-was on the PTB anyways), so it can't be helped.
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@xxaggieboyxx said:
@shootaman777 said:
Playing both sides doesn't make you NOT one-sided. You can play both sides, but still be partial to one.They 'ruin the game and are just a way to make people more toxic', you say. What does that mean? Please elaborate, since it's impossible to understand you, when you don't say what you mean.
'I play both sides so I'm impartial' usually is something said by survivor mains who dabble a tiny bit into low-rank killer. Low-rank killer is easy, low-rank survivor is hard. This usually gives the distinct impression that survivor is the harder or weaker role, when at high ranks, it's the opposite. I'm not saying anything about you, I'm just saying what your statement says about you.
Want people to believe you're credible about balance? Link your Steam profile so they can check your achievements and play time. For example, here's mine:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045252862/not that i doubt you but i cant see hours or achievements on yours. i can tell by the way you talk about the game you arent a noob
I haven't updated my profile settings ever since Steam did that rework of profile privacy a while back, where it was just a dropdown list of public, friends only, or private. Thanks for the heads up, I fixed it so they're all visible now.
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@misteraxel said:
@shootaman777 said:
Playing both sides doesn't make you NOT one-sided. You can play both sides, but still be partial to one.They 'ruin the game and are just a way to make people more toxic', you say. What does that mean? Please elaborate, since it's impossible to understand you, when you don't say what you mean.
'I play both sides so I'm impartial' usually is something said by survivor mains who dabble a tiny bit into low-rank killer. Low-rank killer is easy, low-rank survivor is hard. This usually gives the distinct impression that survivor is the harder or weaker role, when at high ranks, it's the opposite. I'm not saying anything about you, I'm just saying what your statement says about you.
Want people to believe you're credible about balance? Link your Steam profile so they can check your achievements and play time. For example, here's mine:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045252862/https://steamcommunity.com/id/misteraxel Here you go. I'm not one of those 2k+ hours guys, I'm not a pro, but I know how to play. I'm always around rank 1 both killer and survivor. And yes, I'm pretty impartial. I've a good amount of red moris with killers, but never used them because they're stupid. Only used green moris because of Daily Rituals. I've started playing this game as a killer and started playing survivor seriously this year since my friend got the game too.
I started getting matched up with 1k+ hours players after about 30 hours of playtime. At first I dodged lobbies because it felt unfair (I'm 30 hours in this game and the game puts me against players with more than 1k hours? no thx), but then I started going YOLO and realised that some of these 2k hours are just decent players if not mediocre. So I don't judge players by their playtime
That doesn't answer my earlier question, the one I asked in regards to what you meant in your OP:
"They 'ruin the game and are just a way to make people more toxic', you say. What does that mean? Please elaborate, since it's impossible to understand you, when you don't say what you mean."Dem feels. Back when I first started playing when you were hosting a killer lobby, it showed prestige, levels, and ranks of each survivor in the lobby. I would dodge until I got people at my character level, since I started out as a low-level Wraith. I stopped doing that, though, after dodging for 3 consecutive hours to get a single fair match. As you say, experience =/= skill, and that becomes the case more and more as time goes on. The emblem system has made it ridiculously easy to pip, and incredibly difficult to depip, leading survivors to the high ranks before they have enough mechanical skill at the game to pass muster as what I remember rank 1 survivors being back in 2016, when they played hardball and went for the jugular, rather than the modern high rank survivor who just plays casually. There even used to be a high-rank code for survivors, for crying out loud. Nowadays, such a thing does not exist and is considered unthinkable by most, outside of what is now called a 'troll SWF', but used to be every high rank group of survivors.
I didn't say that you weren't impartial. I'm saying that, since it would seem that you haven't had the full experience of the game, that your limited experience would lead you to believe in a very limited ideal of balance, based on that experience. It's hard to break free of that cage of inexperience that limits thought, but the easiest way to do it is to gain that experience. And that cage would lead to things you'd consider to be rational and impartial, to not be either rational or impartial.
I don't judge players by their playtime, either. I judge their credibility based on what they've done with that playtime, and if they were truthful about their experiences.
Based on your achievements, I can say this with near absolute certainty:
When you play killer, you main Wraith and Hillbilly, and dabble in Nurse and Huntress. Combined with which survivors you have the adept achievements for, I take this to mean that you haven't bought many (or any, for that matter) of the DLCs. This also means that you haven't played greater than half of the killers, more often than passingly, if at all.
Your only p3-50, is likely a survivor, but possibly the Hillbilly or Wraith.
You've never hit rank 5 or above as killer. Which makes your earlier statement ("I'm always around rank 1 both killer and survivor") either a bold-faced lie, or an exaggeration of your killer rank, as I'd say the highest you've obtained is around rank 8 as killer. The highest rank you've been proven to have hit as killer is 10, which is the turnaround point at which playing killer actually begins to be difficult. Low rank killer is easy; high rank killer is difficult.
You've hit rank 1 as survivor.
Your 500-some odd out of the 1000 kills achievement is indicative of the relatively decent amount of time you've spent playing killer. However, paired with the lack of rank 1 killer achievement, it doesn't paint a good picture of your balance opinions. What it essentially says, is you've played survivor which is hard at low ranks but less so at high ranks, and low-rank killer which is generally easy across the board.
As I stated earlier:
" 'I play both sides so I'm impartial' usually is something said by survivor mains who dabble a tiny bit into low-rank killer. Low-rank killer is easy, low-rank survivor is hard. This usually gives the distinct impression that survivor is the harder or weaker role, when at high ranks, it's the opposite."
The impression I had of you from your previous statement is almost completely accurate, apart from that you've done a bit more than dabble into killer, but your experience is only at low ranks so it's impossible for me to believe that you've seen the full picture.
However, that has no bearing on whether or not you present a valid argument and/or point, so long as you back it up with proper evidence. Which is why the first thing I did in this post, was to ask you to clarify what you meant.
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@powerbats said:
Just to clarify about being op, they're op in how much they can affect a game due to how easy they are to get was my point. If they were truly only seen in 1 in 500 games then with black wards and as my post said so easy to obtain they wouldn't be so op.If people couldn't just stockpile a horde of them once they hit P3 and have everything or everything on chars they want to play. As it is now I've had killers state they've got a stockpile and I've managed to go through and get some good stuff on my P3 Claudette although her bloodwebs don't see as generous.
On my P1 Trapper, his bloodwebs after the rework did improve and I tended to get more ultra rares with ease just from rolling it over. But the point is that they can't even be considered ultra rare with how easy they are to get.
The same holds true for UR's for survivors. Dumping the same points into a survivor that otherwise would've been dumped into a killer, will yield the same results on the other end.
On top of that, survivors UR's are even more common than killer UR's, because they're not always consumed after bringing them into the match. For example, the UR Skeleton key can be kept if the survivor survives the match, runs a White Ward (and doesn't lose the item to Franklin's Demise), or can even keep the key if using the add-on to keep the key on death and/or on use.On top of that, most of the survivors' best items are not their UR's. Anti-hemmorhagic Syringe is a powerful survivor UR add-on, but the Styptic Agent VR add-on is more economic and convenient for personal use. On top of that, green/yellow/grey charge add-ons for survivor items are among the most useful of survivor add-ons. Even if the bloodweb isn't as generous to you with UR's, the more common add-ons you get on the bloodweb are far more useful than most of the green/yellow/grey add-ons that killers can obtain (and, hell, some of the green/yellow/grey add-ons that survivors have are more powerful than some killer UR add-ons).
On top of that, just about every killer UR add-on comes with huge drawbacks, so that the killer is forced to use a pair of UR or a UR/VR or UR/R combo of add-ons, to make the original UR add-on provide an actual upgrade to their killer's performance, effectively doubling the resource drain.
The Trapper is not a good example of rarity of UR items, since the Trapper has more UR items than most other killers. He's an exception among killers, because for some reason, the devs made it so that the more possible UR items that can spawn on a bloodweb for killers, the more of them actually DO spawn. This isn't the case for survivors just because their item/add-on/offering pool is heavily diluted, but it's in consequential since survivors have a large number of highly effective gear items that are not considered 'rare' by the game.
Remember, just because you don't experience generous bloodwebs on your p3 survivor, does not mean p3 survivor bloodwebs are not generous. It's a matter of RNG, after all. And sadly, anecdotes cannot be considered a proof of concept, only as an example to demonstrate a point already made. Their function is not to be the point or evidence itself.
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Incorrect. You stated your point first. Until you prove your point to be valid with some form of evidence, I don't have to prove my counterpoint to be true. The chronological record states (that I've also screenshotted, in case you edit it out of your post), that you first made the unproven assertion that these UR's were OP in the first place. The ball's still in your court, and has been the whole time.
Edit: @powerbats
Figured I'd @ you in case you were waiting for a notification rather than just refreshing the thread. -
@powerbats said:
@DarkWo1f997 said:
But... they’re ultra rare... and only encountered in like 1 of every 500 matches or so... they’re rare... they’re fun...Wait what? I've run into Huntresses with iridescent and black wards in 6 straight matches against that killer. I asked afterwards and they said they ahd 19 yes 19 more iridescents in inventory after they ran out of black wards.
I run into the same Clowns/Doctors/Huntresses/Hags etc all having ultra rare addons match after match. Once you hit P3 and have everything you can get an endless supply of ultra rares.
They're like candy now since they're so easy to get once you've gotten to that point it's like a common in the bloodweb.
The only ways to mitigate it are to make remove wards from the game, make it so that you can't use an ultra rare more than 1x in every 20 games. Make it so that wards can't be used on ultra rares, change their effects to not be so op or remove them from the game.
They're not OP. Every killer ultra-rare add-on has at least one counter or exploitable drawback, be it direct, indirect, soft, hard, or all of the above. Name one that has no counter and explain how it has no counter, then I'll believe that they're OP. Remember, you have to prove your point to be correct before anyone has to present a structured argument to challenge or disprove it.
Agreed, the bloodweb changes have brought about some rather undesirable results in rarity changes. However, at that point, it's still luck of the draw, and it's because you ran into the same killer who had stockpiled ultra-rare add-ons, over and over again, that caused this to happen. It was just a matter of who was online in your area, and you were placed into the same lobby by coincidence. Some people run into UR's all the time, others rarely run into them, if at all.
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Playing both sides doesn't make you NOT one-sided. You can play both sides, but still be partial to one.
They 'ruin the game and are just a way to make people more toxic', you say. What does that mean? Please elaborate, since it's impossible to understand you, when you don't say what you mean.
'I play both sides so I'm impartial' usually is something said by survivor mains who dabble a tiny bit into low-rank killer. Low-rank killer is easy, low-rank survivor is hard. This usually gives the distinct impression that survivor is the harder or weaker role, when at high ranks, it's the opposite. I'm not saying anything about you, I'm just saying what your statement says about you.
Want people to believe you're credible about balance? Link your Steam profile so they can check your achievements and play time. For example, here's mine:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045252862/ -
@SovererignKing said:
Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeYCouldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.
I'd have to disagree with your assertion that Hex: NoED is a crutch perk.
In regards to the video you linked:
Ironically, the video you linked not only shows how badly yourself and the group of survivors you were with played, but that the killer that you say was 'carried by Hex: NoED', was actually not that bad at killer in the first place. Firstly, they were running a decent loadout, which means they likely know what they're doing. Secondly, they were using a controller, which is obvious to see based on the fact that they turned at one constant rate, which means that they had their joystick pushed as far as it could go to turn. With something as limiting as a controller to be aiming with against survivors that can be highly mobile and agile even with a controller, missing swings and throws is expected and sometimes unavoidable. It's not like they're using a mouse that they can adjust the DPI of to perfectly suit themselves, then are able to turn the exact right amount they need to at every opportunity, to land hits. Thirdly, it took yourself and fellow survivors 10 minutes to power the exit gates, and you IGNORED several unlit totems that were on your screen. Complaining about Hex: NoED after you had 10 minutes to break 5 totems (at 14 seconds each and not being difficult to locate, taking a grand total of 70 seconds to break and maybe 30-40 seconds of total travel time, you could've broken them all solo in under 2 minutes, but you chose not to), is pathetic. Especially on the pallet lodge, where you have visibility to spot totems almost across the entire map. Additionally, the killer had 1 survivor dead before the exit gates were powered, and would have killed you even without Hex: NoED, for a total of two kills. And the only reason that Hex: NoED was able to be used in that match, was because your fellow survivors played like altruistic lemmings after the exit gates were powered, EVEN AFTER THEY KNEW Hex: NoED was in play. That's not the killer being carried by a crutch - that's survivors dying to their own stupidity. After your shameful display of the survivor main mentality 'I'm bad at the game, nerf the other side', I'm finding it incredibly difficult to take you seriously, and to treat someone who is so entitled as yourself, with respect while maintaining my own equanimity. I just want to laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of what I'm responding to, but that wouldn't be respectful, now would it? Anyways, here goes.First of all, Hex: NoED has several soft counters.
Hope, Dead Hard, Small Game, stealth perks (such as Urban Evasion), flashlight saving the person downed by NoED during the pickup animation, insta-healing them off the ground with an anti-hemmorhagic syringe or styptic agent, etc.Secondly, Hex: NoED has the hard counter of breaking all the unlit totems. You say that it's near impossible to do outside of a SWF, but I disagree.
Let's talk hypothetically.
If all 4 survivors spawn more or less evenly spread across the map, they'll all spawn near a totem and can break 4/5 of the unlit totems that could be Hex: NoED, about 14 seconds into the match. It doesn't take a SWF to do that, and survivors are more likely to take care of totems before generators and the like because they're very rewarding in terms of point gain per time spent, 600 points for 14 seconds of time.
At 14 seconds each (to destroy) and not being difficult to locate, taking a grand total of 70 seconds to break and maybe 30-40 seconds of total travel time, you could've broken them all solo in under 2 minutes. If you memorise totem spawn locations within map tiles and totem placement distributions, it doesn't matter how randomly they spawn, because they spawn randomly WITHIN A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF SPAWN LOCATIONS, each of which you can quickly check, and usually from a distance.
And that's not even mentioning that every totem perk the killer runs, reduces the number of unlit totems on the map that you'd have to find to counter Hex: NoED before it spawns by 1. Since Hex: Ruin is meta at high ranks, that means that survivors generally only have to break 4 unlit totems, not 5, to counter Hex: NoED without ever having to worry about being endangered by it.
Since I've already debunked the survivor main myth that 'bad killers get carried by Hex: NoED', let me fix your words for you.
How it works in actuality, is that 'Hex: NoED sometimes provides killers with the tools necessary to punish bad survivors, but most of the time it is 100% useless against even half-decent survivors'.Now, onto the part of your post relevant to the thread itself, which apparently was just a side note, an afterthought. You said:
"Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial."
While giving SC limited uses would solve some of the problems that Self-Care causes, it would create more problems than it would solve. First of all, if Self-Care were ever nerfed in that way, survivors mains would complain incessantly on the forums and review bomb until the devs caved and gave them what they wanted, which would be a buff to another aspect of Self-Care (likely, it would be reverted to healing at around full speed), and/or another nerf nuke to killers (such as by removing the lunge of the killer's attack from the game, which I've seen many survivors demand on the Steam forums, time and time again).
Agreed, on the reset to zero thing being stupid.
I disagree about it being the killer's fault that the survivor has the opportunity to Self-Care. If the killer wants to have any chance of getting more than one kill against half-decent survivors, they'll inevitably have to provide at least one survivor with an opportunity to heal (since the only way to stop survivors from completing their objectives, is to take more than one of them away from their objectives at the same time). Essentially, what you're saying is that the killer's only counter to Self-Care is tunnelling, and if they don't do so, they're a bad killer. And the problem with that statement, in that you're saying that the only counter to Self-Care is to tunnel a single Self-Care user to death, is that the time spent doing so would provide every other survivor with more than enough time to escape. Which essentially translates to saying 'only bad killers don't throw the match or get more than one kill'. Which is just, plainly and simply, stupid.
There are two main problems with limiting the uses of Self-Care, balance-wise (rather than realistically, as I mentioned the realistic concerns with this route of nerfing Self-Care earlier in this post). The first, is that not many heals are necessary anyways. If you consider a survivor Self-Care'ing after each hooking and having one spare Self-Care, that's more than enough healing, more than they'd have needed if they played the match carefully. The second problem with that, is that most effective bodyblocks are done when multiple survivors are doing the bodyblocking. And in this case, those survivors who bodyblocked together would also be in a position to heal each other and not need to dip into their Self-Care charges.
And, on the note of your proposed Sprint Burst rework. And it is a rework, since it's partially a nerf, and it's partially a buff. This would allow Sprint Burst users to make better time around the map without wasting Sprint Burst by running for only 2 seconds, walking, then repeating the process. But, at the same time, it would make survivors more vulnerable to ambush killers. It's definitely an interesting idea, and could be worth implementing into a PTB.
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@Brady said:
Self Care is not broken, and I'll repeat it once more, is not in need of any buffs or nerfs. Maybe even reverse back to the old tiers, but it's not a problem. I'll thoroughly explain, and this is just from personal experience.- The biggest concern with self care people seem to have: the risky action of bodyblocking.
People believe that if they nerf self care, or simply don't even have it as a perk, it will end this.
No, it won't, and it certainly hasn't. Any experienced player should not be afraid of being injured without healing yourself with self care. If I'm healthy, I'm still going to through a bodyblock if it's necessary. Guys, there's a perk that even supports it, used with No Mither.... David's perks....
Anyway, what people fail to understand is, if you have one person in your grasp, 3 others bodyblock and you hit them all. You have two options:
Wack them all and potentially lose the hook
Wack one or two, drop, and rinse and repeat. Many Killers have done this when there's a swarm, and it has resulted in many penalties on our end for not expecting the killer to drop and go after the first or second injured bodyblocking guy.If that does happen: Everybody now has to heal, which is resulting in less generator progress being done (People are dumb and don't gen rush if they're all injured, and if they're all self caring that's 40s~ off a gen, which is about half a generator they missed out on completing. Statistics may be wrong, correct if so, but regardless time they are healing, is time they are NOT doing their objective, which is essentially slowing down the game.)
"Self Care is a crutch"
Okay, I can see your arguments there. It's a very reliant perk, I agree. But so is Hex: Ruin, BBQ, and Nurse's. It's the super meta these days, and none of these perks are in need of a buff or nerf (minus the hex system but that's irrelevant). I mean, can't Survivors have a single perk that IS powerful? It just seems like everything we have as survivors is being totally picked at bit by bit... Utitlize your auditory senses, utilize Nurse's (You can't say Nurse's is trash perk as it doesn't barely work or else it wouldn't be META.)
The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal.
And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?
Not to mention, if Self Care gets touched, which by the sounds of it if it does it's gonna be a pretty serious nerf, I'll happily run Bond and Leader instead, which means: Faster Heals, Faster gen rushes, and more coordination! Actually hey, maybe you should nerf Self Care. It sounds way more beneficial. No salt, no jokes, I'm okay with Bond being meta and knowing my fellow teammates position nearly 24/7 instead of a simple 40s~(?) heal. By the way, this game is totally playable without perks even at Rank 1 (Not entirely the same for Killers...unless it's Billy or Nurse but it could be a give or take) and I never see much of a difference when I don't bring Self Care, which tells me it's not in need of any changes, but to each their own with ones opinion.
Talking anecdotally about game balance proves nothing, because too much in anecdotes is dependent on RNG, especially in DbD. Which is why I will addressing your fundamentally flawed claims from the theoretical perspective. I don't need to prove anything, because once again, you've started off with claims that your 'evidence' does not prove to be true, but I'll still address what you had to say as a courtesy to you.
As you say, survivors don't need SC to bodyblock. So its removal/nerf shouldn't impact survivors who want to bodyblock, right? Thanks for furthering my argument.
The problem with your math of bodyblocking on the way to the hook, is that it depends on what stage of travel to the hook the bodyblock is done, and there's too much variance in potential circumstances to be able to discuss effectively, the effectiveness of a bodyblock. Remember, all it takes is one bodyblock to get a survivor off the killer's shoulder in the 'best' case, and in the 'worst' case, even 3 bodyblocking survivors can't save a survivor from being hooked.If they're all SC'ing, that's not 40 seconds off of gens. It's 20, since they're healing simultaneously. Which is barely enough time for the killer to complete the hooking and get the first survivor found to the first pallet of that chase, after the bodyblock.
On top of that, getting someone off the killer's shoulder buys far more than 20 seconds of time, since we both know that chases go on far longer than 20 seconds, so in actuality, it's not beneficial to the killer to have survivors bodyblocking and Self-Caring, as the survivor main myth seems to declare all the time, since survivors have bought themselves far more than the 20 seconds spent Self-Caring by bodyblocking.
With my suggested nerfed version of Self-Care (25% healing speed), that would be 40 seconds off of gens, and would be relatively manageable for the killer.Yes, people do genrush through being injured. The fact that I do it on a fairly regular basis, disproves your general statement that nobody does it. That's the thing about anecdotal evidence - it's anecdotal, and doesn't necessarily or definitively prove anything.
I don't recall stating or arguing that Self-Care was a crutch perk. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, that's not a point that I was defending. However, since you've brought it up, I'll address that.
Self-Care is only a crutch if your gameplay relies on it. As you said later in your post, you don't rely on it since running it or not running it has no noticeable effect on the outcome of your matches, so it's not a crutch for you. I applaud you for having a degree of skill that most survivor players don't have, if what you said about your Self-Care usage is true.
However, Hex: Ruin, BBQ & Chili, and A Nurse's Calling are not comparable to Self-Care. I have yet to see anyone on this thread name a single effective counter to Self-Care that doesn't involve throwing the match. However, I can tell you that Hex: Ruin is 100% useless against survivors who have the half a brain necessary to be able to hit great skill checks, and can also be countered by unskilled survivors by breaking the totem. I can tell you that BBQ & Chili can be easily countered by either misdirection when far from the hook, or just by existing close to it. A Nurse's Calling has a few more of the hallmarks of being a crutch, in that it does something for a killer that they could do by using their eyes and ears. Well, not their ears, since audio occlusion is not functioning properly at the moment. But it also has a simple and effective counter - not healing near the killer.
You can't talk about Ruin needing/not needing a buff then in the same breath say that the hex system (upon which Hex: Ruin is based) needing a rework is irrelevant to the subject of Hex: Ruin. It's very contradictory, and only disproves your point.
Also, just because a perk is meta and does/doesn't need a buff on one side, does not mean that the meta perks on the other side do/don't need buffs. As I've said already, if the game were 100% balanced (which is isn't), that may be the case. However, the game is not 100% balanced, so your argument holds no weight.
While I would agree that BBQ & Chili doesn't need a nerf or buff (since even when it doesn't reveal survivors' auras, it still helps the killer make the informed choice on the decision whether or not to camp), and that A Nurse's Calling is in a decent place since it's pretty much a crutch that wastes the perk slot of someone with eyes for not much gain, I would definitely say that Hex: Ruin needs a buff.
The reason that these perks are meta and effective at high ranks for killers, is because most high-ranked survivors are quite bad at the game. I've already explained the simple, easy, and effective counters to each of these perks, but that doesn't mean that the majority of high-ranked survivors will use them. I speak in the context of theoretical effectiveness when things are used to their greatest potential. The difference between Self-Care and the high-rank killer meta, is that the high-rank killer meta is easily counterable to the point of being a joke, whereas the high-rank survivor meta offers no counterplay if used effectively.What you seem to be missing here about survivor perks vs killer perks, is that killers have 4 perks, whereas survivors have a collective 16 perks. Meaning that, for a killer perk to be balanced, it has to be 4x as strong as a survivor perk. Theoretically, a survivor's strongest balanced perk should be 1/4 as effective as a balanced killer perk. Most killer perks aren't even as effective as a single powerful survivor perk, which just goes to show you how pathetically weak killer perks are. Every meta killer perk is easily, simply, and effectively countered by basic survivor game mechanics, to the point where survivors don't even need a perk to counter every one of the killer's perks with minimal effort.
So, that you'd say 'Can't survivors have a single perk that IS powerful' just shows your entitlement, lack of interest in keeping the game balanced, and lack of knowledge about game balance. Survivors are not supposed to be the power role. They're not even supposed to be mechanically powerful (even though they are), so why should they have powerful perks (by your contextual definition of 'powerful perks', which are 'perks that can single-handedly make the match a nightmare for the killer and remove any risk/threat/challenge from the match for a survivor' (since those are the survivor perks that have been on the chopping block as of late (exhaustion perks, DS, Self-Care, Borrowed Time, etc)))? They shouldn't. And if you've read this far through my post, you'll understand that that's because of basic theoretical game balance, not because of a desire to make killers 'overpowered'.'Everything you have as survivors is being picked at bit by bit'? Last I recall, stealth is a survivor's most effective tool, and the devs have buffed perks like Urban Evasion, and Whispers is on the chopping block, to make stealth more effective. The most effective tool survivors have isn't being picked at bit by bit, so I don't know where you'd be under the impression that everything you have is being picked at, because it clearly isn't.
"The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal."
First off, a heal is never deserved. To think otherwise is purely and simply entitlement.
Secondly, it's 20 seconds, not 40 seconds.
Third, the groaning/footsteps/grass noises are irrelevant since audio occlusion is bugged and the killer can't hear any of that unless they have direct line of sight on a survivor (in which case those things were all irrelevant (yes, you can hear them while playing survivor, but if you've played any killer at all recently (which it would seem that you haven't), you'll know that those sounds don't exist when playing killer)), and the blood trails can be mitigated by using that same grass to cover them up.
Fourth, my argument had to deal with the increased efficiency of overall healing when multiple survivors simultaneously use Self-Care, which this part of your response has nothing to do with. You're using a strawman and deflecting to a point that I wasn't defending.
And on top of that, all of this is nothing but your opinion backed by nothing but your experiences. You're not even attempting to think of game balance in any sense but how you see it to be now."And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?"
All of these insta-downs come with their respective counters and drawbacks. Hex: Devour Hope is a totem perk, so the totem can be broken, or the survivor in question being unhooked can be unhooked before the killer left the area of the hook, and the killer won't gain a token. Hex: NoED is easily countered by breaking all the unlit totems across the map. The new Hex perk is countered by not breaking either of the two lit totems of it. Myers' EWt3 insta-down comes with a lengthy charge time during which he is completely ineffective and non-threatening, also coming with the drawback of being Myers and not having any tools to counter looping in his kit. Leatherface also comes with the same drawback. The Hillbilly's insta-down is also limited by charge time, and is on the devs' nerf chopping block.
I didn't say that anything in particular was the main problem of the game. Those other things are some honourable mentions, but we're talking about Self-Care here, and I'd appreciate it if you kept your replies on-topic, and the topic is Self-Care.
I'll repeat it once more; Self-Care is broken, and you or anyone else still has yet to prove otherwise.
-
@powerbats said:
@yeet said:
healing in general, along with self care, needs changing
it's just too strongWhile they need some adjustments you as a killer have tools that help you, it's a refusal to use those tools either at all or effectively that's the biggest issue. The same thing killers say ti survivors complaining about BBQ etc.
The difference is, that the killer has no tools that can counter Self-Care. No perks and no add-ons, nothing that can stop the healing.
The only mechanic that killers have that can counter Self-Care, is tunneling. That only works on one survivor, allowing 3 survivors to heal/repair gens in complete safety to their heart's content. Half of the time, employing this tunneling 'counter' gives all survivors a free win, and the other half of the time it gives every survivor but the one being tunneled a free win. Don't you see the problem with that? Having to give 3/4 to all of the survivors a free win to attempt to counter a single survivor perk? Aren't you just proving that Self-Care is completely broken?
.
Survivors actually DO have the tools to counter BBQ. They have perks that counter it (Lightweight, Sprint Burst). They have mechanics that counter it (staying inside the 40/46/52 meter detection range, moving unpredictably after the aura reading ends to evade the killer if they were outside the detection range).
.
You're comparing apples to oranges. -
@Brady said:
Stop trying to touch Self Care. It's not needing any adjustments, buffs and nerfs, at all.@shootaman777 said:
You're making an assertion with no evidence, on mistaken premises, and completely missing the point of a logical argument.
In a logical argument, you take a position, provide evidence as to why that position is proper, and you work from there.
If you do not take a position with sufficient evidence, then there is no need to prove you wrong, as you have failed to prove yourself to be right. But I addressed what you had to say anyways, because it's common courtesy to respond to someone who's talking to you.Granted that I've taken my position with sufficient evidence, the ball's now in your court to prove me wrong by establishing your opposing position with sufficient evidence.
What you've said, is the logical equivalent of 'no u'. It's embarrassing, really, since it means nothing and has no substance to it. As such, the only reaction I can give you is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFl__NlOpA -
@Shadoureon said:
@Sarief said:
@powerbats said:
@Sarief said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks
So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.
Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.
1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
in any way
Talking about someone's English followed by the most atrocious grammar ever...
Also search the definition of cheating.. Using a perk isnt cheating you twat.
I would request that you keep the topic relevant, don't make things personal, and refrain from personal insult.
If something sounds wrong just from reading it, odds are other people will understand it to be wrong by reading it, and you don't need to make a post that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread to point it out. -
@Sarief said:
@Shadoureon said:
@Sarief said:
@powerbats said:
@Sarief said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks
So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.
Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.
1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
in any way
Talking about someone's English followed by the most atrocious grammar ever...
Also search the definition of cheating.. Using a perk isnt cheating you twat.
you don't know English too, apparently. Since you don't know how to read. I never talked about grammar.
right back at you, twatMay wanna chill there on the insults/name calling, or edit it out. No need to stoop to another's level.
Technically, they are correct. It isn't 'cheating', per se. VOIP SWF, for instance, is cheating, because it's using a 3rd party software to gain an otherwise unobtainable in-game advantage via out-of-game software.
The term you're looking for is 'cheese', 'cheap', 'broken', or anything of the like.
Plus, why are you taking them seriously when they don't even do you the courtesy of reading your full posts and responding to your full posts, only nitpicking tiny inconsistencies? -
@Maxi605 said:
@Master said:
Maxi605 said:Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...
Are you refering to the new clown perk? You can hardly call that a counter
And even nurses calling can be countered, you just heal outside the range
A Nurse's Calling (Doesn't make the time go slower but helps finding survivors healing), Thanatophobia, Clown Perk (however is called) and i asume there's others, As there's ADDONS for killers that do the same with repairing and healing...
@shootaman777 said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:
Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.
Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.
Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.
Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:
1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.
-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.
2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.
-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.
3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's
Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).
How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.
So, what do y'all think?
@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:
Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.
Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.
Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.
Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:
1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.
-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.
2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.
-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.
3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's
Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).
How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.
So, what do y'all think?
@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.
A Nurse's Calling is a useless and worthless perk if survivors have half a brain and don't heal near the killer. It doesn't counter Self-Care in any way unless the survivor using Self-Care is playing stupidly. In which case, you could use your ears and eyes to tell you that that survivor is healing, and didn't need a perk to do it for you.
Sloppy Butcher gives a 25% healing speed penalty. 25% of the 50% speed that Self-Care has, is 12.5%. So, with Sloppy Butcher survivors Self-Care at 37.5% of the normal healing speed, healing in 26 and 2/3 seconds ((100/37.5)*10=26+2/3). You're telling me that those 6 seconds will entirely counter Self-Care? That's a funny joke.
Coulrophobia gives a 50% healing speed penalty within terror radius. Which is only useful on two maps, since they can be nearly covered in the killer's terror radius - The Game and Haddonmemes. On every other map, it's 100% useless if the survivors have half a brain between them. And on top of that, survivors with the other half of their brain won't be healing within the killer's terror radius in the first place because of A Nurse's Calling.
The mere idea that you'd suggest that a killer has to use 3 perks to counter a single survivor perk, is ludicrous. Doesn't that tell you how insanely powerful Self-Care is, when you suggested having to dedicate 3 perk slots to even slightly start at a counter to it? Because you're forgetting that survivors also have 15 other perks that the killer has to plan accordingly for with that last perk slot you've left them. Every killer perk, since they only have 4, has to be as strong as 4 survivor perks for that killer perk to be balanced and therefore worth using. So, if anything, you're only proving the argument that killer perks are trash, as well as that Self-Care is beyond ridiculously broken.
On top of that, the mangled add-ons you're talking about only have temporary effects. They can be ignored entirely by not healing during the effect.
-
@SadonicShadow said:
There is many ideas as a way to nerf selfcare. I originally proposed that we buff the self care healing speed back to normal and then instead of the selfcare being a complete heal it puts you in a no mither state. You dont drop blood, you still limp and your grunts of pain are heavily reduced and you still go down in one hit. This effectively makes it a good enough heal cobbled together with what you find in the environment until you can get proper medical attention.In addition to that i would buff the selfcare medkit healing efficiency just enough so that you can get 2 full self heals out of a brown medkit. This in effect encourages players to make trade offs. If you want full self heals without other peoples help you need to bring a medkit.
The problem is, that would pretty much remove Self-Care from the game.
Does it allay some of the concerns of the skeptics of nerfing SC, who complain that when they're last alive they shouldn't have to stay injured because there's nobody left alive to heal them? Yes.
But that also makes Self-Care 100% useless at the high ranks, because it would create a medkit/Franklin's Demise meta, and because Self-Care healing wouldn't provide any worthwhile benefit to high rank play. It'd just become a game of 'stash a medkit early, and go back to it for heals whenever' for people who want to use SC and not rely on fellow survivors. If the medkit is stashed conveniently in center map or close to it, it'll almost always still make going to that medkit a better option that finding more inconveniently placed fellow survivors.As far as I know, a full medkit heal takes 12 charges, and brown medkits have 16 charges. +50% healing efficiency would make a brown medkit contain 2 full heals.
-
@Jack11803 said:
Just make it so it’s not better than getting a heal, but worse. It takes twice the time, but half the people, so it’s the same. It should be 40% speed or maybe a bit slower.That's exactly what 25% healing speed is. It'll never be faster to Self-Care at 25% speed, than for a 4 survivors to individually heal each other. But, it'll also never be slower, too.
-
@powerbats said:
@Maxi605 said:
Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...This Nurses Calling so you know where they're at, Thanatobia for speed decreases, Mangled for debuffs etc.
None of which are particularly useful, as A Nurse's Calling is countered by having half a brain, Thanatophobia is countered by Self-Care, and mangled is a minor inconvenience of a few seconds that is usually temporary so it can be waited out.
-
@Maxi605 said:
Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is..."Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing"
Incorrect. There are no 'perks that counter the time of healing', as there are no perks that counter healing, making a survivor unable to heal at all. Some perks can add a few seconds to healing, but most of those are countered by having half a brain."if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks"
Incorrect. If this game were fully, 100% balanced, then taking away something from one side would mean having to compensate by taking away something from the other side. It is not fully, 100% balanced, as is evidenced by Self-Care being broken beyond belief, giving survivors power beyond belief that they would not have if the game were indeed balanced. As-is, nerfing Self-Care would make survivors weaker, but they would still be the power role in this game instead of the killer even without Self-Care."is fine as it is"
See the OP of this thread if you're unsure as to why it is NOT "fine as it is".You're making an assertion with no evidence, on mistaken premises, and completely missing the point of a logical argument.
In a logical argument, you take a position, provide evidence as to why that position is proper, and you work from there.
If you do not take a position with sufficient evidence, then there is no need to prove you wrong, as you have failed to prove yourself to be right. But I addressed what you had to say anyways, because it's common courtesy to respond to someone who's talking to you. -
@Lead_Cenobite said:
TLDR?As I've explained on this thread:
"Then again, I'm also not a fan of TL;DR's, because as I've found on the Steam DbD forums, it leads to people skipping the entire post and arguing about things that the OP already explains or argues in painstaking detail, and I have to keep quoting the OP at people on the thread. So, I don't do TL;DR's anymore." -
@Sehkmet said:
devs already were trying to implement this:
canceling self care would resume it to 0% of the bar instead of keeping the progress (the progress that other players did on you wouldnt be affected)This would not solve, nor would it even begin to address, the glaring balance issues that Self-Care's existence creates. 3/4 survivors could Self-Care at any time without worry of the killer stopping their healing progress, since the killer can only chase one survivor at a time. It's a token gesture toward a 'nerf' to Self-Care, nothing more.
-
@Feyard said:
Thanks for the thread, I often read threads about SC being op, but it's the first time I read smth with real numbers and I'm seriously wondering what the devs thought when creating this perk now...
A decrease to 25% would probably be a good nerf, though I would rather have SC removed than having teammates wasting 40 seconds, because they won't try to get help. Removing SC would make this more of a team game anyway.I appreciate the thanks, and I'm glad I could put the numbers together for whoever wants to have them. I think the devs didn't know exactly how Self-Care's healing would affect the game when they made it (they didn't do the calculations, but intended for it to be a perk that would allow players to play more selfishly), and relied on feedback to gauge whether it was in a good place balance-wise or not, and haven't had enough feedback that hasn't been dragged down and destroyed by trolls, flamebait, and biased people who create excuses for the game to not be balanced because they don't want it to be balanced (but in the same breath those biased people will tell you that they want the game to be balanced).
Personally, I'd prefer to have SC nerfed to 25% healing speed and kept in the game. I'd love to watch natural selection take its course and the people who completely rely on Self-Care plummet down the ranks due to death after death after death.
For a short while after the nerf, you'd have people reliant on Self-Care dying every game while people who aren't fully reliant on it compete for the hatch or bring keys. And plenty of threads about 'Killers OP', 'Literally unplayable', and 'Buff survivors' all over the forums, just like every time survivors are told they have to adapt to something and improve at the game rather than rely on cheese.I don't want to remove SC, because I don't want to force this game into being the team game it was never intended to be. I bought this game back when it came out of closed beta, because the dev diaries sold me on it.
Lines such as 'you can be as cooperative as you want, but at the end of the day, it's all about you' and 'there's no safe place for survivors' were what sold me on it in particular.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FMwsbsQek&list=PLMCoq7Q9V5b2aO8advgrZqwdfPCou-vKlI had originally planned to main survivor for the challenge it would present. I turned to playing killer, after playing around 50 hours of survivor taught me how braindead easy playing survivor was. I still play killer more than survivor because survivor remains easy to the point of being boring.
The reason I mention this, is so you can understand why I say that I don't want this game to become a team game (because it was never meant to be one), and as such I don't want Self-Care to be removed entirely from the game. The devs have all but abandoned their original vision for this game, sadly, but every decision that leads back towards that vision is a step forward, in my opinion, and nerfing SC to the point I suggested is, also in my opinion, how to go about returning to that vision.
-
@HellDescent
No, I wouldn't like that. What I would like, is for you to give constructive and relevant feedback, or not give any at all. Otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time, including your own. -
@HellDescent said:
@shootaman777 said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:
Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.
Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.
Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.
Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:
1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.
-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.
2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.
-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.
3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's
Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).
How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.
So, what do y'all think?
@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:
Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.
Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.
Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.
Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:
1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.
-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.
2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.
-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.
3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's
Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).
How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.
So, what do y'all think?
@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.
A Nurse's Calling is a useless and worthless perk if survivors have half a brain and don't heal near the killer. It doesn't counter Self-Care in any way unless the survivor using Self-Care is playing stupidly. In which case, you could use your ears and eyes to tell you that that survivor is healing, and didn't need a perk to do it for you.
Sloppy Butcher gives a 25% healing speed penalty. 25% of the 50% speed that Self-Care has, is 12.5%. So, with Sloppy Butcher survivors Self-Care at 37.5% of the normal healing speed, healing in 26 and 2/3 seconds ((100/37.5)*10=26+2/3). You're telling me that those 6 seconds will entirely counter Self-Care? That's a funny joke.
Coulrophobia gives a 50% healing speed penalty within terror radius. Which is only useful on two maps, since they can be nearly covered in the killer's terror radius - The Game and Haddonmemes. On every other map, it's 100% useless if the survivors have half a brain between them. And on top of that, survivors with the other half of their brain won't be healing within the killer's terror radius in the first place because of A Nurse's Calling.
The mere idea that you'd suggest that a killer has to use 3 perks to counter a single survivor perk, is ludicrous. Doesn't that tell you how insanely powerful Self-Care is, when you suggested having to dedicate 3 perk slots to even slightly start at a counter to it? Because you're forgetting that survivors also have 15 other perks that the killer has to plan accordingly for with that last perk slot you've left them. Every killer perk, since they only have 4, has to be as strong as 4 survivor perks for that killer perk to be balanced and therefore worth using. So, if anything, you're only proving the argument that killer perks are trash, as well as that Self-Care is beyond ridiculously broken.
If you loose a survivor and let him get away and heal that's your own fault. No need to blame it on a perk
So, you're saying that tunneling is the only counter to Self-Care? Duly noted. That's material for r/wowthanksimcured, right there.
Plus, aren't you saying the opposite of what survivors want you to do? Isn't that kind of counterproductive to what you're trying to accomplish here?
Do tell me how I'm supposed to tunnel 4 survivors at the exact same time. I'd love to hear how I've been going about tunneling 4 survivors to death and chasing them all at the same time the wrong way! /s
Or even just more than 1 injured survivor. I can't chase them both, so one can Self-Care while I chase the other.
-
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:
Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.
Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.
Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.
Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:
1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.
-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.
2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.
-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.
3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's
Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).
How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.
So, what do y'all think?
@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:
Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.
Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.
Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.
Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:
1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.
-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?
Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.
So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.
2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.
-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.
3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's
Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).
How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.
So, what do y'all think?
@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.
A Nurse's Calling is a useless and worthless perk if survivors have half a brain and don't heal near the killer. It doesn't counter Self-Care in any way unless the survivor using Self-Care is playing stupidly. In which case, you could use your ears and eyes to tell you that that survivor is healing, and didn't need a perk to do it for you.
Sloppy Butcher gives a 25% healing speed penalty. 25% of the 50% speed that Self-Care has, is 12.5%. So, with Sloppy Butcher survivors Self-Care at 37.5% of the normal healing speed, healing in 26 and 2/3 seconds ((100/37.5)*10=26+2/3). You're telling me that those 6 seconds will entirely counter Self-Care? That's a funny joke.
Coulrophobia gives a 50% healing speed penalty within terror radius. Which is only useful on two maps, since they can be nearly covered in the killer's terror radius - The Game and Haddonmemes. On every other map, it's 100% useless if the survivors have half a brain between them. And on top of that, survivors with the other half of their brain won't be healing within the killer's terror radius in the first place because of A Nurse's Calling.
The mere idea that you'd suggest that a killer has to use 3 perks to counter a single survivor perk, is ludicrous. Doesn't that tell you how insanely powerful Self-Care is, when you suggested having to dedicate 3 perk slots to even slightly start at a counter to it? Because you're forgetting that survivors also have 15 other perks that the killer has to plan accordingly for with that last perk slot you've left them. Every killer perk, since they only have 4, has to be as strong as 4 survivor perks for that killer perk to be balanced and therefore worth using. So, if anything, you're only proving the argument that killer perks are trash, as well as that Self-Care is beyond ridiculously broken.
-
@Yrutan said:
To summarize, Self-Care takes 20 seconds to heal yourself. Having another survivor heal you takes 10 seconds. This means that 4 injured survivors takes 40 seconds (10 each) to heal all 4 while 4 injured survivors with Self-Care would only take 20 seconds. Likewise, it takes 5 seconds for a survivor with We’ll Make It to heal someone else. Meaning that a survivor with We’ll Make It can heal 4 other survivors in 20 seconds while four survivors with Self-Care will also take 20 seconds to heal all four.You should probably put that summary somewhere because the wall of text can be intimidating to some.
My opinion of this is simple. We’ll Make It is a limited use perk while Self-Care is an unlimited use perk as such they should not be comparable. I mean a limited usage perk should be more powerful than a perk that is always usable which is clearly not the case here.
While I think Self-Care is already taking a long time (from a user perspective) if you look at the full perspective it definitely should take more time than it currently does since it saves you a lot more than the additional 10 seconds.
Maybe it is time to also change the second part of Self-Care. You know the part where you should be using a Med-Kit with the perk.
I'd put that somewhere in the OP, but the reason that I was locked out of this post for so long, is due to too many edits. I'd rather not press my luck.
Then again, I'm also not a fan of TL;DR's, because as I've found on the Steam DbD forums, it leads to people skipping the entire post and arguing about things that the OP already explains or argues in painstaking detail, and I have to keep quoting the OP at people on the thread. So, I don't do TL;DR's anymore.
Well, when you put the WMI vs SC argument that way, it dilutes the argument by appearing to be calling for buffs to WMI, rather than a change to SC, due to emphasis on WMI rather than SC.
I'm not that much of a fan of working with/improving the 'use medkits' part of Self-Care, for a number of reasons.
-Charge add-ons can be stacked with efficiency perks in order to have more heals than a survivor could ever realistically need, to the point where the end result is a Self-Care buff. Especially when combined with Pharmacy and/or Ace in the Hole, it wouldn't even require bringing a stacked medkit into the match.
-Franklin's Demise meta. 'Nuff said. The survivors are salty enough already when they die. They spew salt from their eyeballs when they lose their items due to Franklin's Demise.
-It nerfs Freddy... again. The chance of getting a skill check while medkit healing, is higher than while Self-Care healing. It promotes plays like these, the kind that give Freddy players nightmares. Timestamp, 1:35.
https://youtu.be/dGfzI1evJN0?t=95 -
@Master said:
@shootaman777 said:
@jiyeonlee said:
don't spam alarm cause you re low skilled and i can see it from your past postsno one likes noisy kids
My apologies, it was not my intention to 'spam alarm'.
I'd comment on your grammar/spelling and how it's far more kid-like than mine, but your words speak for themselves.
May I inquire as to which past posts you read that led you to the conclusion that I'm 'low skilled'? I'd like to know what you're referencing, since you're making an assertion without providing evidence to back it up.
Ignore survivors like that, in the long run it will save your sanity, trust me.
There is no point arguing with such a guy. He always drags the conversation down to his level and beats you there because of his larger experience.Everyone playing DBD knows that SC is ridiculously strong, and its used 99% of the time
I'm freshly migrated over from the Steam DbD forums, where I've been active since DbD came out of closed beta. I've dealt with people far worse than them before, and I quite enjoy the experience. There's also nothing quite like engaging stupidity in intelligent conversation/debate, and watching them flail around helplessly. I suppose that's why I enjoy playing killer so much (especially in the post-game chat, even though I play both sides fairly evenly), I suppose. But to each their own, in that regard.
Thanks for the warning, though. I appreciate the kindness, and moreover am surprised to find another rational individual on a DbD forum.
Plus, if it helps bump the thread, then it's fine by me. The longer this stays at the top, the greater the likelihood that it'll be read by someone who has power to affect change in DbD.
However, in all seriousness, I believe that it's necessary to respond to people like that. The uninformed reader reads their shots fired (with no dissent) and believes the irrational individual, over the rational and structured post. This in turn makes the thread, and anything constructive on the forums, entirely pointless, when all it takes is one individual saying the equivalent (in validity and relevance) of 'no u' to make constructive feedback seem entirely incorrect. Unless, of course, those 'no u's are addressed in kind.
Smothering each fire is necessary, taking into account how the DbD game/forums community is generally a dumpster fire. There are too many toxic and unreasonable people, on both sides. It's mostly survivor mains that breed such toxicity and nonsense that impedes the positive progress of the game, but there are some killers that do the same, too.
That wouldn't be so problematic, if only the devs didn't cave to whoever shouts the loudest. So, it is what it is. And it's a shitshow. -
@jiyeonlee said:
don't spam alarm cause you re low skilled and i can see it from your past postsno one likes noisy kids
My apologies, it was not my intention to 'spam alarm'.
I'd comment on your grammar/spelling and how it's far more kid-like than mine, but your words speak for themselves.
May I inquire as to which past posts you read that led you to the conclusion that I'm 'low skilled'? I'd like to know what you're referencing, since you're making an assertion without providing evidence to back it up.
-
Most survivors are not skilled players. Rank =/= skill, after all.
This should be obvious to anyone who knows that Hex: Ruin is the rank 1 meta for killers. It's a perk that only works on unskilled survivors who can't hit great skill checks, yet it's so effective because rank 1 survivors don't have much skill.
Nurse can adjust her teleport, yes. Survivors can also change the direction of their movement.
Nurse is not only played by rockheads, yes. But apparently survivor is only played by rockheads.
Eventually, either the Nurse will make enough of a mistake where the survivor can escape, or the survivor will make enough of a mistake and be caught.
I can't tell if you're insinuating that I'm a low/high rank player or not in your response, so I'll clear up the confusion with a link to my Steam profile in case you want to find out for absolute certain:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045252862/ -
Nurse is not OP. She's the only balanced killer in DbD. In a chase with the Nurse, the player who outwits the other wins. That's all.
If it seems like there's no way to avoid her hits and escape her, it's because you're predictable and playing on autopilot. Try something new on her, and you may find it works. Or even something incredibly stupid. Even Nurse players can't predict some of the stupid things survivors can do. And playing against a Nurse is all about skillful misdirection and being unpredictable.
Would the perfect Nurse always kill everyone and land every blink hit? No, because the perfect survivors would always dodge the blinks and blink hits.
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@fuzzyhobo said:
I'm almost entirely with you, but I would like to see self-care become part of the repertoire of survivors and removed as a perk with a nerf in speed.
Self care atm is too fast, but running solo queue without self care is almost certain death when you can't rely on your fellow survivors. Not to mention at end game when you're the only survivor left, being able to heal up to full hit points is essential.There are two reasons that I'm against making a nerfed Self-Care into a base survivor mechanic:
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1) It would make perks based on the injured state such as Iron Will, Resilience, and the like worthless, since healing-based perks would take front-and-center stage.
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2) Not only would it make healing fellow survivors entirely irrelevant, it would open up an extra perk slot for survivors to add more meta perks to their loadout, or to add Botany Knowledge into their loadout to undo the decreased base healing speed and provide a universal bonus to that survivor's ability to heal other survivors.
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Making Self-Care a base mechanic is a huge blanket survivor buff. I'm not in favour of that, when survivor is already the power role.
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Soloqueue is not almost certain death without Self-Care. That's where skill comes into play, and where the hatch is useful.
There are always medkits, Pharmacy, Plunderer's Instinct, and the like that can substitute for Self-Care, as well (they're not used as often because they're not as convenient, but they're still effective).
Being able to fully heal up in end game is not essential - it's convenient, but unnecessary. Again, that's where the things I just mentioned become useful.
That's also where perks based on the injured state become useful, such as Iron Will (makes you silent when injured) and Resilience (increases your action speed, and yes, that includes vaulting speed).
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What it seems to me that you're saying, is that you can't be bothered to use an injured state perk or to use any of your other alternatives in the end game, and you want Self-Care as a base mechanic so you don't have to be bothered with it. I don't mean it as an insult, but that's how you're coming off, based on what you're saying. If that's not the case, let me know, but that's just what I'm reading. -
@jiyeonlee said:
this game have lots of overpowered perks and devs generally doesn't care about most perksthey agreed with no penalty perks especially if its teachable perks like ruin or bc
Of course the devs aren't talking about a lot of perks in the game. Because they're either in a good place, or meant to help new players (rather than meant to be effective at high ranks).
There are only two overpowered perks in DbD. I define 'overpowered perks' as perks with no counterplay, or that circumvent so many game mechanics that there is never a reason not to run them other than to nerf oneself. Those 2 overpowered perks are:
1) Self-Care
2) Decisive StrikeSelf-Care is why I made this thread, and Decisive Strike is already on the chopping block.
Every other perk has a reasonable degree of counterplay.
Hex: Ruin is countered by hitting great skill checks... which isn't difficult to do. But if someone doesn't have the skill to hit great skill checks, there are two counters to it that require no skill whatsoever, which are gen tapping and breaking the totem.
I can only assume that by 'bc', you meant NC as in 'A Nurse's Calling', or bc as in short for BBQ & Chili. A Nurse's Calling is countered by either not healing near the killer, or being so close to a juke spot that it doesn't matter that you're found by the killer. BBQ is countered by going within 40 meters of the hook during the hooking, or by not showing the killer where you're going during the 4 seconds of aura reading then promptly hiding after the aura reading ends.
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@jiyeonlee said:
you could type these in 1sentencedon't drag all over and say "right" at every single time its annoy to watch
Well, I removed the 'right's, but I don't know what exactly you mean by 'don't drag all over'. And what exactly could I type in 1 sentence?
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Why did this post before I was finished typing it...
Finished editing it... for now!