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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023522#Comment_2023522
Except it is objectively wrong when someone says DBD requires no skill in both technicality and colloquially, and subsequently it's superimposing their subjective perception of the game which is not an objective truth.
It's not like a real sport that requires actual physical robustness as well as game knowledge and subsequently skill, which is actually showcasing difficulty to obtain proficiency in at a top level and to keep performing so.
At the end of the day, no game is too hard. It's simply button mashing and it's a bunch of nerds arguing whose button mashing is the hardest which is really laughable
And that's where you're wrong. Colloquially, we're clearly not talking about the same thing. You're saying by definition, technically everything is a skill, therefore dbd takes skill. In the same vein that counting to ten is a skill therefore counting technically takes skill. Meanwhile, people are saying that in terms of skills, whatever unclear metrics that they're judging, dbd is not skillful.
Your only merit so far is that your right that it is a subjective opinion as to what counts as skill. A 1 year old counting to 10 is skillful to me but a 30 year old isn't but that's based on my own selected criteria. In my eyes, dbd when compared to everything I've played and experienced is not a skillful game. However, saying that your criteria for skillful play is objective is also incorrect. It's not objective either, since you've subjectively chosen your own criteria on what counts as skill.
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The millionth thread on this. Next up killer mains will complain the devs are survivor sided and then immediately get "bashed" as well. I see it happen to both sides. I think the answer is obvious. Ppl disagree with ideas and will give their disagreements.
Also to be fair, most of the "pro-to-a-side" ideas are kinda... Not really fair for both sides. Most of them would basically kill the perks/killers. For example, DS probably needed a change but the devs made it an even more circumstantial perk. Same thing with Moris. They probably needed a change but the devs just made them meh. The good ideas generally follow this trend. The absolutely terrible ideas are much worse. It's why dbd powers always seems to trend toward mediocrity or extremely circumstantial abilities.
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Lol. Is the trickster free or do you expect to pay money to be his beta tester and provide additional feedback that might not be listened to when he's live?
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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2021076#Comment_2021076
I'm not using it incorrectly. Saying a type of labour is unskilled is simply a way of referring to it having a lack of specialised skill, particularly in an area of work, not having no skill in general. If the game didn't require a considerable amount of skill then there wouldn't be such blatant tiers of skill in this game, and there would be no issues with rainbow matchmaking let alone the need for MMR if the game was so easy, and subsequently would mean that the disparity between someone who is relatively inexperienced game time wise compared to someone who is heavily experienced in that same regard would be almost identical in terms of performance. The reality is that they are not.
What you subjectively deem as being good enough to be labelled as skill is besides the point. It is actually skill at the end of the day and there's no arguing that. If you want to infantalise and boil it down, the talent required in video games amounts to pure button mashing and mouse moving. You have children who aren't even old enough to graduate primary school who are very proficient at FPS games and fighting games and who are able to pick up these skills by playing casually, and that alone showcases how simple it is to get "skilled" at any video game, and how people only subjectively hype up and demean games according to their own bias. This applies to the games that people often want to say requires skill such as Valorant/Tekken/Street Fighter/Overwatch etc.
What determines skill in this game isn't whether or not you 4k or even escape, and that's in the game mechanics itself. You can get a 4k and still lose a pip depending on how you play. You can escape a game and lose a pip depending on how you play.
The end point is, if this game was so easy, why is it taking you all so long to get good at it? Not everyone is a competitive player but if the game was this easy then it should be accessible to be good for all casual players, but yet most people aren't good. So what gives?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2021171#Comment_2021171
It really is funny how much nerds want to fight about whose button mashing is the hardest to do lol
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2020946#Comment_2020946
No one insulted you, I just questioned the authenticity of what you said considering you posted some blatantly incorrect statements. Such as probably not even 0.5% of the playerbase or whatever having more than 50 hours even though this is blatantly not true and just your own superimposition of your thoughts onto the game and trying to pass it off as fact, which I directed you not telling the truth about that by sourcing steam statistics showing a plethora of achievements which cannot be achieved in the time span you listed, as well as by a much larger playerbase than what you listed.
I think the discussion has been going fine. You made outlandish claims and you got corrected on it, so yes I'm going to treat what you say with some suspicion.
You're kind of grasping for straws here. First of all, general correlation =/= absolute correlation. Secondly, if you want a source for some common sense knowledge then you will have to refer to Google for that one, I'm not spoon feeding you. It's not hard to understand that generally more time spent into practising something renders an outcome of becoming prone to being better at it over time, as opposed to not doing it at all or virtually not doing it at all. Play time in this game translates to practice. And I made sure to say generally because this isn't always the case that someone becomes good in general regardless of their playtime, but particularly in accordance to their hours.
Also, I didn't see your "proof" in your pictures before of you going against streamers--you edited it after I read it. You made this weird goalpost that you're for some reason pretending that I said and I never did. I've said multiple times thus far 4king/escaping =/= inherently having skill. I never made the statement people of that calibre can never lose a game. Specifically Tofu (don't know who the other guy is) who doesn't even play seriously on stream in the first place and generally is just looking at chat, ######### with a flashlight (which shocker he had one), and/or using Head On. Kind of weird, and to many extents desperate-looking, how you took at best a few games of people ######### around on stream and thought your skill was basically equivalent to them. Big yikes
So on top of the lying, there's dishonest paraphrasing of what I said, on top of simply putting words in my mouth. What a trainwreck of an argument holy scheisse
And that's my point. You can't match unskilled labour and skilled labor together just because they both use the word skill in the same vein you can't say the definition of a skill describes what counts as a skill means that everyone is wrong when they say the game doesn't take skill. You're combining colloquial meaning of skill with a dictionary version just describing what is a skill. If all you're going to say is that anything counts as a skill by definition, therefore dbd takes skill than we've hit an impasse. Walking counts as a skill. Therefore, going down the street takes skill. Excellent.
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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2020872#Comment_2020872
Refer to the above. People keep saying it's wrong but that's not what the dictionary says
Do you lot have any sources to back up your definition of skill? I'm truly curious if it's anything but a personal interpretation of what you want skill to be qualified as. I have no problem being corrected.
You're using the definition incorrectly. That's a definition of a skill, not whether or not something requires skill. It would be like arguing unskilled labour and skilled labor are the same thing because technically everything is a skill so there's no such thing as unskilled labour. Conflating the two means we're talking about 2 separate things.
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All you need to do is invent instant data transmission. Make it commercially available and affordable. Other than that... You're going to have to stop playing all online games if you can't stand latency.
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You're mixing up skill in terms of mechanics and game knowledge. DBD doesn't take much skill in terms of mechanics. You don't need much precision movements, fast reflexes or complex controls for DBD. Even nurse isn't too difficult when you think about it. The worst part is that her difficulty is inflated by poor controls, feed back and bugs.
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It would be interesting to change her so that she can't put down traps close to hook. The only problem with that is depending on the range of the restriction it might create powerful trap deadzones or remove traps the hag set up before hooking the survivor, even though she's not really trying to trap the hook. So in exchange, she can put down traps instantly but they won't be active until whatever time it took for her to place traps down b4. That way it'll help her with set up.
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What's the point of haste? It just prolongs the survivor getting hit so that bt doesn't activate by the time the killer catches them.
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Second conspiracy theory time. What if all the weird ranking bugs are due to MMR (either it's on, collecting data, accidentally on or just bugging things even though it's off). It would explain why some ppl are increasing in rank by a large number. That's their MMR number being updated but it's accidentally popping up.
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The second one.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2012667#Comment_2012667
3 minutes Id understand, no killer should have 5 gens in 3 mins unless you're literally chasing 1 survivor or they devote full genrush builds.
4-5 minutes is more understandable, this means you've actually split people off of gens at some point. 5 mins for 5 gens is still insane.
This is how we know red rank solo queue has fallen so far.
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I've given up on solo queue ever being good again. You can't. I mean it. You cannot buff solo queue into working order unless you add in an I win button. It's not possible with the teammates I've seen in red ranks.
If you look back on quite a few buffs/nerfs over the past 2ish years, the devs did them to make it easier on solo queue and newbier players. The result? They got to higher ranks and solo queue got worse. Ppl like to quote the killrate/pick rates from months ago. 68% kill rate in killer red ranks but then when looking at kill rates in all killer ranks it drops to 56%. Maybe there's a problem with ppl getting into matches far above their skill level? There's nothing more we can do but ignore ranks and try to salvage a working matchmaking system with MMR.
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The thing is that it's up to the other side to punish for mistakes. If a killer makes a mistake than it's up to the survivors to punish the killer for it. Same thing vice versa. A single mistake on either side can easily snowball as long as the enemy knows what they're doing.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2012628#Comment_2012628
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2012996#Comment_2012996
people can play however they want but terms used to describe actions are still a thing. Being able to play however you want even if it means you lose doesn't make those terms invalide.
- Tunneling, going after a certain person whenever the opportunity is presented. This means after they are unhooked you go after them and either pick them up risking DS or wait it out but without letting them get picked up, If you lost them then whenever you find them even among all survivors you go after them. this continues until they die.
- gen rushing, solely focusing on gens spending as little time as possible with any other interaction as well as travel time to get to gens. Only doing saves if you are the most optimal choice. Playing this way in a swf when in a chase usually dictates using anything without sparing meaning you use pallets too early as long as it means you can waste the most time on the killers part without going down.
- kill rushing is just another term for tunneling but usually means you also use a mori.
Of course these are just my terms for it other people can view it differently but they all usually closely resemble this.
Tunneling used to mean solely focusing on one survivor, spending as little time as possible with any other interaction. I swear the definition for tunneling gets broader and broader.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2012513#Comment_2012513
Is league of legends really that toxic? All the ads I see of it makes it so friendly?
Just imagine, dbd with comms and your team can see everything that you're doing. Sometimes your teammates are chill. Sometimes they get tilted and look for any reason to complain. Other times they think they're god-tier players so the only reason their losing isn't their fault. Sometimes they're even right but don't say it in a constructive way.
I think the worst part about dbd is that the enemy complains that you're trying to win in anyway. In League if you spend most of your time dead and allowing the enemy to snowball to victory they don't call the enemy a tunneler or if the enemy just knocks down the objectives quickly without trying to engage the enemy, they don't call you a tower rusher.
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Yes survivors should start playing around map awareness. Just choosing where you go down can easily drain 20 seconds from the killer even if you don't really know how to loop.
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It would certainly be interesting on seeing how killers set it up and the strategies to get things working but there's probably a broken loop hole somewhere.
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This would make sense... Except, they left the Mori's as is for years since the last Mori nerf. There's no real rush to do it.
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Pathetic. Why don't you just let them pick up the hooks and carry those around? Then the killer can hook survivors to themelves too.
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@jakesotto said:
When the rift is active a lot of killers afk and it seems now that you aren't able to initiate chase with them if they're standing still
I assume they "fixed" something that was making a lot more situations count as chases and that happened to also result in removing the ability to get into chases with an afk killer. So it's a buff in some ways a nerf in otherways.
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@Aztreonam78 said:
There are so little Killer challenges in comparison to Survivor challenges the game literally forces you to play Survivor more, otherwise you get less progress to the rift.
If this is the reason, I wish if further archives could be similar to "Awakening", the very first tome that had equal amount of Killer and Survivor challenges. More Killer challenges would positively affect the matchmaking times.
A bunch of people complained that there were too many killer challenges and it made them feel forced to play something they didn't want to. So maybe you are right about something.
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@MadLordJack said:
I think it would just be better to increase the duration.
I think that'll just be a nerf overall. Ppl are already worried that solo queue survivors will essentially afk the for 1 minute to use their DS. Worst case scenario killers just decide to keep slugging anyone that has DS.
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@Kellie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2006914#Comment_2006914
As if devs haven't taken their sweet time changing anything that was busted. See how long its taking them to nerf iri head?
I think that example is a little different. The devs don't seem to like changing add-ons unless they're doing a full sweep on the killer. Kinda ridiculous but what are we gonna do.
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It's a win for that one survivor. They lost the war but won the battle.
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@Superyoshiegg said:
Can't ignore all the BS Survivors had to deal with as well.
- Killers blocking entrance/exit to the basement, because the stairs were thinner back then. Could hold the game hostage indefinitely because there was no End Game Collapse.
- Nurse originally having three blinks by default, could increase it to seven with add-ons, and she moved at the full 115% movement speed.
- Memento Mori's could take a Survivor out of the game after a single down.
- The Machine Gun build (Unrelenting + Save the Best for Last) was utterly broken beyond belief.
- Actual, genuine facecamping was a thing. It was quite literally impossible to save someone being facecamped, because the unhook prompt wouldn't show up.
- The Trapper could put traps directly underneath a hooked player, and could stack traps onto other traps at that. It was impossible to save someone with a trap underneath unless you had several Survivors working together to disarm them while someone else unhooks.
- NOED was permanent once activated, with no way to disable it nor was it on a timer.
I don't want to come off as a case of 'whataboutism', but you did neglect to mention a single thing that Killers had going for them (and they had quite a lot indeed).
I could've sworn a good chunk of those existed before the dark times and patched before the dark times or within the dark times. I guess it depends on where you decide to date the Dark times, which is debatable.
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U can tell from
a) mechanical skill from the killer
b) the Killer's game sense.
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@fr0sty1223 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2006852#Comment_2006852
Not really. Just punish face camping and hard tunneling and give killers a blood point bound or something for playing against swfs. That’s all the really needs to be done
So how would you do it without railroading the game and losing complexity. I've seen a lot of ideas but all of them are either too restrictive thus making the game restrictive and less complex or too soft and it does nothing so people will still complain.
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@fr0sty1223 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/233531/why-gamers-dont-play-killer
The devs need to remove toxic strategies from both the killer and the survivors. Catering to one side will not solve the problem.
Game would be dead if they tried to remove everything considered toxic. It would be an extremely railroaded game with very little depth.
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@Crowman said:
I wouldn't say it doesn't exist, but it's not nearly as common as people think.
A team who leaves survivors on hooks to finish gens even at the cost of the hooked survivor going to the next hook state is gen rushing.
That's just a smart strategy. You take a risk and hopefully be rewarded. Although it doesn't work in solo queue, especially since if you do that it'll tilt whoever is in the hook.
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@ThonMaïs said:
What is the problem with immersed players, exactly?
Nothing really. I think ppl are mixing up actual immersed gameplay and holding the game hostage.
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Depends on how long the timer gives. If it gives 30 minutes then some1 is probably holding the game hostage. 20 minutes and things are arguable. 15 minutes is too strict. I think somewhere between 22 and 28 minutes gotta be a sweet spot.
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Some people are starting to change the meaning of gen rushing to mean being too efficient on gens.
It's like how tunneling is starting to mean being pressured by the killer too much. Right now I think it's already moved to mean getting in chase with a survivor who has been hooked in the past 2 minutes.
I'm talking catch all terms since the meaning keeps expanding to include more and more scenarios.
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@ilovedbd123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004912#Comment_2004912
They are the closest equivalent we are going to get, like keys and Mori's are equivalent so too speak. They aren't exact replicas but they are the most similar to each other.
Hatch is overall a game mechanic, a mile wide stretch from a perk.
Noed doesn't require a killer to guard their totems, it just means they have to apply enough pressure that survivors focus more on gens than on totems. That's why noed can be effective, because if you are already winning and noed activates it's going to be a slaughter. People either get out or scramble for the hex totem.
Both of them have conditions that end them, one being a timer and the other being a hex. Both can be mitigated by playing well. If you see someone who's faster because of adrenaline, try and change target s. Or do hex's for noed.
Adrenaline removes a mistake, noed punishes them. Adrenaline makes it harder (in most cases) to down someone, noed makes it easier (again in most cases).
Yes, but saying the hatch (a game mechanic that even can be interacted with an item to make is uncounterable unless they are dead) is the same as noed (a situational perk that can be countered) isn't a stretch? You also are stretching pretty hard here pal, don't try using rhetoric, it doesn't work against someone who's dealt with that bullshit before.
We'll agree to disagree. At this point we will just argue in circles.
Ps I tried to copy your rhetoric and tone. It's nice when ppl call themselves out for bullshit.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004860#Comment_2004860
Blight isn't bugged, they very deliberately chose to give him that PoV. You don't put dozens and dozens of hours into animations, working with an identical model to the one the survivors see, without realising that his PoV is super low.
Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't notice. They probably attached the pov camera first and then the team in charge of the animations just used where the camera was set.
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@ilovedbd123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004856#Comment_2004856
Alright then,
Hatch doesn't take a perk slot, and occurs situationally. Can also be activated using an item to secure an escape. Noed doesn't secure an escape, takes a perk slot and has no item that allows for a quicker use of it.
Adrenaline on the other hand is a perk, both have the same activation condition. Both make it harder for the other to complete their win condition (kill survivors/ exit through the exit gates). Both give haste/ a speed boost. Both are not a win condition.
Also those last lines are mediocre at best, both have an element of rng? That means very little in both cases for the majority of matches (unless your on black swamp or on red forest for totems).
The excuses at the end are nothing to do with the perk itself, otherwise we could link a numerous amount of unrelated things.
All you have to do for hatch is find it, even if you find a survivor you still have to get a successful hit off with noed. Also hatch isn't just an opportunity, it's a win condition. These are two entirely different things and the fact you tried to weasel this kind of thing in is hilarious.
If you want to play a game of point out the differences than fine.
Adrenaline requires survivors to finish their objective while noed requires the killer to guard their totems, which is a separate task.
Adrenaline rewards survivors for winning. Noed rewards for losing.
Adrenaline heals a health state automatically, while noed requires the killer to m1 the survivor to have an effect. It does not instantly hit every survivor and drop them 1 health state.
Noed is a hex, can be removed before and after it is activated but it doesn't end unless removed or all survivors escape. Adrenaline cannot really be stopped unless the killer wins but it does have a time limit for the speed boost.
Adrenaline does not give an extra health state if the survivor is uninjured so they can take 3 hits. Being downed doesn't really count in my eyes either since that's stronger than just healing a single health state. Plus noed only works on m1s. Not exactly robbing a single health state either. I don't think that's equivalent.
Your last point " Adrenaline useless against instadowns, noed useless against injured as it only takes one hit anyway" is a stretch for equivalency. You could use that logic to make anything equivalent as long as it's useless. At least what I said has to do with how people have the same problems with hatch and noed. Saying hatch is useless if the survivors win and noed is useless if the killer wins is way more of a direct equivalence.
A lot of the things you've said makes it actually sound like they're counter perks with each other not equivalent perks.
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@ilovedbd123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004137#Comment_2004137
Your wrong then.
Noed decreases the time it takes to kill someone via one health state, adrenaline gives you an extra health state.
Both give a speed boost.
Both have no activation requirements other than exit gates powered.
Adrenaline useless against instadowns, noed useless against injured as it only takes one hit anyway.
See, are equivalent.
Not hatch
You're also wrong then.
Hatch rewards for losing.
Noed rewards for losing.
Hatch usually activates as survivors get pushed into a corner, although it could activate when survivors are winning anyway.
Noed usually activates when killer is pushed into a corner, although it could activate even when the killer is winning anyway.
Hatch gives a powerful opportunity for survivor to succeed.
Noed gives a powerful opportunity for killer to succeed.
Devs created hatch to give survivors a chance for added suspense.
Devs created noed to make killers a bigger threat at the end for added suspense.
RNG search for hatch.
RNG search for lit noed totem.
Hatch feels undeserved by killers.
Noed feels undeserved by survivors.
Just slug for the 4k.
Just do bones.
I think more importantly that there are a lot of similar responses between noed and hatch. Except, it switches depending on whose talking.
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@SilentHillOnDvD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004685#Comment_2004685
Highly doubt 4 solo default clothes survivors are purposely holding the game hostage.
Purposefully or not it's still holding the game hostage, which is banable.
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There's immersed and then there's holding the game hostage. What you experienced was holding the game hostage, which is banable. Playing immersed is not and even though I dislike my teammates doing it in solo queue I don't think it should be banable.
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2003747#Comment_2003747
in preschool the preschool is a death trap, those pallets, once gone, are almost certain death for a survivor
I find that it really just depends. It's very possible to lose a killer in there too and the killer is also forced into losing time with the good ol' holding w.
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@ilovedbd123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2003680#Comment_2003680
It wouldn't, but how about we talk about nerf adrenaline to you have to do a gen and a 1/2 in progress and a totem to allow for it to activate.
They are equivalent, both give ######### for free.
Where are my nerf adrenaline posts at.
PS. This is a joke. Adrenaline and noed are the same, but neither need a change or nerf. And if one changes to take skills the other should too.
Personally I still think that noed's equivalent is hatch ,rather than adrenaline.
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I think maybe 4? Just make them super spread out so you can't just chain them back to back.
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I see it happen on both sides. It's not a survivor or killer only thing.
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@FattiePoobum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2002760#Comment_2002760
Alright then show us the evidence the stats are wrong, you can say what you want on a forum, show us the stats that disprove the stats
Well then you'd have to pay attention with the fact that kill rates are only 56% when including all ranks... The 6% can easily be explained by bad matchmaking, suicide on hooks, over altruism, and people throwing for challenges.
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Guilty Displeasure would be trapper. I just really don't like running through a mine field and being the idiot who steps in one.
Guilty pleasure would be legion and spirit. Legion cuz I find the matches pretty peaceful. Sometimes I want a chill game. Spirit since I like the uncertainty of not knowing when you're safe or not. With most killers once you've played enough you'll generally know when you're safe.
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If you're using a macro to do it, then it should be banable. If it's just increasing DPI and the player is the one in control I think it's fine. It's no different then rebinding keys to make certain actions less annoying or 360ing as a last resort.
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I think BBQ is probably one of the most fair and balanced perks in the game. It doesn't reveal you within 40m, which is an area of about 50% of the map or around 5024m^2. There are also a few different ways to play against it.
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@Zaytex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2001545#Comment_2001545
Urm.. right, so that's why all the well known streamers who are brilliant at the killer role all say the same thing about Spirit.
Technically, a lot of them say she does have counterplay. It's just that she's not fun.
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You'd have to buff him first so that he can get unlimited stalk from survivors, which would suck more (for us survivors).