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@OrangeJack said:
Think people are being overly pedantic about this. Yes some killers are uncounterable in theory. If you had an super- AI play a nurse then it would be gg but you as a survivor can still make actions that make it so that the killer has to be perfect in order to get you and for average and even alot of good killers that is enough to be called a counter. Going around LoS with a nurse player will increase their chance of making errors as opposed to not doing so. If they try to go around you can run perpendicular away from the wall as most will expect you to just go around. They still have the potential to make perfect moves but who cares?
This isn't even uncommon in any pvp game where you have diverse characters/classes or whatever. There's going to be a specific playstyle that is in theory unbeatable if played perfectly but if balanced with difficulty like with nurse they're usually not an issue in practice.
I would also add that this game isn't only a 1v1 its a 1v4 so again, I don't see the problem if chases aren't a 50/50 input battle.
I'd agree with you b4 nurses nerf but after it... The thing with super-ai nurse is can it beat 4 super-ai survivors built to counter it? The answer would be I dunno. If the super-ai nurse was allowed to always slug then I think it would win most of the time, except there are a few good strats super-ai survivors could use that might make it rough for a slugging nurse.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think you've hit on the two extremes. Killers should never feel powerless in a chase against similarly-skilled survivors. The playing field should always be tilted in their favor. With that said, survivors need to be able to make skillful plays to prolong chases or interacting with the killer becomes extremely frustrating and unfun. Take Legion as an example. If Legion sees you with Frenzy up, that's basically a free hit. If you drop a pallet or vault a window, they vault it too. If you run, they quickly catch up. You can window tech bad Legions or make them whiff their hits, but a decent Legion will just about never miss. That is not fun from the survivor side, because no amount of skill or optimal play would let them avoid taking a hit.
Note that the idea of counterplay doesn't have much to do with the killer's strength. For example, Huntress is a killer with a massive amount of counterplay but she's also extremely strong. You can easily dodge uncharged hatchets, you have a lot of warning on when she's readying a charged hatchet and can gain distance and break line of sight, she's 110% speed and can therefore be looped around tiles she can't throw over very easily, and her lullaby makes her easier to use stealth against that other killers. However, she can also deal out damage very quickly and from long distance, so she's formidable in the right hands.
Now, on the other side, we could talk about old Freddy. Survivors could straight up bully him. Like, they could follow Freddy into the basement as he's hooking someone, immediately save, and Freddy would basically just have to let it happen and follow them up the stairs as they fell asleep. Similarly, they could just continue opening exit gates as he's standing around waiting from them to fall asleep and could maybe even get in a few good t-bags by the time he was able to hit them. Killers should never have to feel like they don't have any power against survivors. So, just like survivors want to be able to lengthen chases with mindgames and skillful play, killers also want to be able to shorten chases with mindgames and skillful play.
I think most killers in DBD have room for skill to shine through on both sides in the chase, but there are a few killers that are basically uncounterable if the killer is decent. I feel that this should never be 100% dependent on the killer's skill; survivor skill should always have a chance to shine through.
The thing about Legion is that there is still counterplay to their power. Original Legion is the closest existence to no counterplay unless u 4 man swf with specific tactics. As for the Legion of today, U could slam a pallet in their face. It's difficult with how the server works but doable. If the Legion was 12(?)m away run a straight line and their power runs out b4 hitting u. Certain maps/obstacles/perk combinations can allow you to out play Legions power. If you're going to get hit anyway correct positioning will make getting the second hit much more difficult and/or would give other survivors a better chance of not getting hit by Legion's power. Also, you could still drag out the time b4 getting that first hit(another of those counters that ppl sleep on). It adds on that little bit of pressure for the killer and if all 4 survivors do it multiple times things start adding up. As for the rest of what you said I mostly agree.
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For me at least, crowns are done on survivor so off to killer I go for crowns.
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What would stop people from purposefully getting others to DC then?
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None of what you said is actually the problem with PH. The range is fine. It's surprisingly short. The cooldown is fine. PH using his power and missing buys you so much time to get away. If you're in a position where you're letting him spam his power at you, you're playing badly against him. The timing is slow to the point where most of the time you can still Dodge it.
The only problem with PH is that a good PH will know how to get into a position where either you'll either get hit by their power or m1'd. Then again other than that I don't think PH is much of a threat.
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Increasing gen times would make the game a lot more boring for survivors. It might make the game more balanced in terms of time but it's just not fun, which is why ppl suggested adding more stuff to do instead.
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So this thread is basically about killers patrolling the cage? Cuz if the killer is dumb enough to force a cage and then use the cage only to run to the cage, thus wasting time, isn't that a win? It's better than them just face camping, normal hook patrolling, slugging, etc. U get way more chances to survive if their goal is to tunnel or camp.
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@tippy2k2 said:
Someone just threw out the same idea a few days ago so I'm just gonna copy/paste what I said then...
From what I've heard from others (i haven't been playing for that long so I'm taking their word for it), back in the day they used to have a punishment for campers (sounds like the timer would either stop or slow down immensely when the killer was within X meters from the hooked). Survivors just abused the hell out of it and essentially would just constantly loop around the hooked area. For your solution, you just need to loop around the area long enough for the auto-blind to kick in and now the killer just got punished for having the audacity to be where the non-hooked survivors are.
Even if you say "Well if they are in a chase, the mechanic doesn't work" but then you have survivors just hiding in the hooked area (so the killer knows you're in the area but since they are not "actively" chasing you because you're hiding, they now can't look for you because you're using the hooked person as a human shield).
That to me is always going to be the biggest issue with punishing camping. There are times when either camping IS the best play (like EGC is active with the gates being opened and none of the other survivors are injured so you won't be able to down anyone if you go after them) or survivors will use abuse the mechanic.
There's also a larger radius thingy that makes it so the debuff doesn't occur if survivors are running around. I just didn't specifically say the sizes cuz I don't know the exact sizes to balance things. The 3rd paragraph.
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The good news is that they said that they're looking at the dead zones. So they are looking at that.
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@yapzicreek said:
Do not daydreaming that anymore.
Q&A on 15th this month the devs had explained that they think of even facing camping a strategy, most of time a inadvisable one for killer but sometimes a must do.
But what I wrote above nerfs it for when it's inadvisable and strengthens it for when it should be done.
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Personally, this sounds good to me but this is a bit of a slippery slope with both sides, since it brings up the topic of what takes skill to do and whether X should make it harder to rank. At least I've seen posts on the forums saying stuff like that.
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The only thing I really want is getting rid of the clicky clicky. It's just annoying.
@Rivyn said:
I mean, it's clicky clicky. So what? If they chase you to clicky clicky, that's one less person not doing gens.
What needs to be fixed is being able to blind when not in the FoV. But flashlights themselves are fine.
U just gave a good reason to get rid of clicky clicky. You have a survivor not doing gens thus ruining the game for the other survivors and to a certain extent killer too. It's like facecamping but less impactful.
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My idea would be to rework both of them.
Keys: It would give a new optional objective for survivors. In a game of DBD a killer can hook survivors a total of 12 times. The new "key" let's the survivor go to a hook and injure themself on it, thus tricking the entity into thinking a survivor has been hooked. You can only use it if you're uninjured. This lets you call the hatch sooner and trick the hatch into opening. You don't actually need to do it 12 times, since as the game progresses and the killer downs/kills survivors normally it still counts towards the hatch coming. So let's say a killer downs, hooks a survivor and nobody saves them. The game instantly puts the number at 9 hooks left, even though the survivor was only hooked once. Basically the game will keep track of hooks. Each survivor is worth 3 hooks. At 3 hooks or less the hatch is open. It gives survivors a risk since it makes them injured when doing it but it still helps them get hatch and makes them actively work for it.
Mori's: Let's the killer mark a downed survivor for a painful death. Upon being marked the survivor will get up and be shrouded by the entity. They'll be invisible for 15(?) seconds as long as they don't interact with things like doing a gen, healing another survivor, etc. The survivor will be in a permanent wounded/mend state. With the bar basically being a timer that ticks down no matter what. Imagine old Legion. As the timer ticks down so to does the survivor's ability to do gens and heal other survivors. It'll be percentage based and at 0 percent they can no longer do gens or heal other survivors. Luckily, the survivor can self mend or have some1 else mend them to refill that timer. Some1 else mending them is better. So the killer can find them and hit them again, which decreases the timer by a certain amount AND decreases the maximum of the timer permanently. So let's say the max of the timer is 100 seconds and a hit from a killer decreases it by 25. If the survivor had 75 seconds left but a max of 100. Their time would go down to 50 and have a max of 75. However, the percentage of their decreased ability to do gens will be out of the original 100 not the new max of 75. The survivor will go down if a killers hit makes their max time become less than 0. Once the survivor goes down they can be mori'd. Different killer attacks can make the survivor's health (timer) go down at different rates. Like Legions ability could take away 5, since it's relatively easy to hit. Basically, I want the killer to hunt the survivor and really beat them to death.
1st level of Mori: after 1 hook and the next down you can do it to 1 survivor. The next level of Mori is on any down (do it in the first down or else you're just screwing yourself) you can do it to 1 survivor. Ebony let's you do it to all 4 survivors on any down.
These things might need more tweaks with numbers and stuff...
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@CantDeadHarder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1269614#Comment_1269614
you legit could've left that last part out but you've shown one of the points I've made, it's that name calling fallacy. in reality it is safe to say that toxicity on both sides is relatively equal, but I'm talking about on forums. The community is mostly made up of killer, so when a killer talks about survivors teabagging them all game, they get sympathy. But when survivor's complain about getting BM'ed for literally no reason, the mindset switches, people believe that killers will only do that if you did something to piss them off.
"pissing the killer off" includes but not limited to
- Teabagging the killer
- flashlight clicking
So far so good? Let's do some more
- completing a gen in the killer's face
- running a strong tile
Questionable yes? But wait there is more
- Using DS (for anti-tunnel purposes)
- Doing objectives
- using flashlights
- using strong items
- Being good at the game
Doing essentially anything as a survivor can piss the killer off so much ,it'll cost you your fun in that match. Killer toxicity has more weight than survivor toxicity. A toxic survivor can only t-bag and flashlight click you, which has no impact on the match. While as killer you can bodyblock people into areas (This is bannable I know, but you can still do it anyways), facecamp as bubba and deny that person from the game, tunnel at 5 gens, face camping and Bm'ng your swaying body because you destroyed a totem to prevent disaster on your team, etc.
Toxicity shouldn't be tolerated period, but according to the forums doing any of those things is fair play, but doing something as useless as teabagging and flashlight clicking is not.
The thing is you're generalizing and making a lot of assumptions. For one you have to assume the person is a main on one side. That's not always the case.
Then your assuming what you think they believe and then generalizing it across all killers. It's like some1 saying survivors want all killers to be nerfed and believe all killers are op because if you go through the forums you'll find a bunch of examples about every killer being too strong/op. It's not a fair argument.
i think it's pretty even in terms of toxicity in the forums. Not all discussions have a 50/50 split. Some have more on one side others have more on the other side. Others just have 1 person on one side arguing with 3 others but that 1 person has like 29 upvotes, while the 3 others have 1 or 2 upvotes.
The thing about who has the power to run games for others... You can just as easily argue that a survivor has just as much power to ruin the game for the killer or everyone else. They can DC/suicide on hook. Follow the killer wanting to die. They can make tons of annoying noises. Constant head ons just for fun (okay I'm guilty of this). Stealth and not do anything at all, especially if it prolongs the match. Not leave when the gates are open prolonging a game you've already won. Sandbag teamates. Attract killers to teammates. Over using bodyblock strat against the killer (I think it's a valid Strat but I also understand from the killer pov why it could feel bad).
Finally, what ppl view as toxic isn't going to always be the same. For example, I don't find a killer hitting a survivor on the hook as toxic. I actually see most newer players do it (in YouTube videos) cuz it roleplays as killer in their heads. Some don't do it to spread toxicity. I don't find teabagging that toxic either but I do find clicking the flash light toxic cuz it's annoying to hear over long periods of time.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. It's your ideas and other ppl shooting it down dont make a difference. If you think that the forums are mostly killer bias and nothing I've said changed your mind then you do you.
My advice would be to take all criticism to improve your ideas and/or understand a bit about other people's point of views. You could also have a bad idea or your wrong. I think in this case you have valid points. I just disagree with your conclusion. Nobody is correct all the time. Acknowledge the completely useless stuff in your head to build thicker skin but don't bother with it too much. If things get too much then you could take a break or leave that discussion.
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I find that most killers don't go out of their way to 4 man slug unless survivors give them the opportunity to do it. Or maybe I'm just lucky.
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I'd say it's about even in terms of toxicity. It might be a bit of bias on your end of you only notice one side.
- Coming from a mostly survivor player
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@Kate_Main_01 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1251744#Comment_1251744
🤣 this is such an interesting post to me! Thank you for sharing! <3 My teammates played very well in that game I mentioned as did the Killer, it was genuinely a fantastic game. But thank you!
If you are the third hooked and the fourth person does not help you or hides near the hatch then you would rather them go down with you than escape? It is funny that they are now an enemy too! Lol! What if the Killer is face camping you?
I personally sacrifice myself if I am on second hook for the fourth person though I will admit that if I'm first hook and I've saved them previously then I do feel a little salty about giving them that to get out. Lol!
I just have more memorable moments of "teammates" that i wish karma had struck them down than moments where hatch killer bias murdered me. I actually have a few times where I just hopped through the hatch even as the killer closed it/after it closed (maybe that was a bug but I blame dedicated servers). There are situations where I understand why the other survivors don't rescue me. I'm not talking about those.
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Plz god no. Even as someone who thinks that it'll help me escape more often as survivor I think making hatches favor survivors a bad idea. I understand that you did a lot of work for your team and it sounds like they potatoed but more often then not a potato is going to be the one sitting there at the hatch hoping you drop dead... I don't want these potatoes getting out. Especially when they sit in a locker next to the hatch waiting for everyone else to die.