Weird survivor/killer divide on counterplay
When I was trying to edit things it kinda crashed so sorry if this is a repost.
This is more of a dumb rambling.
There's a lot of discussions popping up about which killers have counterplay, what killers don't have counterplay, etc etc. Personally, I think every killer has plenty of counterplay. The discussion should be about whether they are too strong in their area of strength or whether the killer should be changed so it feels like what a survivor does have more of an effect. But I digress.
When survivors talk about counterplay they're talking about whether or not there was something they could do in a certain situation to counter the killer. The idea is that, provided the killer knows what they're doing, if a situation has no counterplay then there is no survivor-killer interaction.
Now here is the other side of the same coin. Some time ago, it was really popular to talk about the power role in the game (some still talk about it but it was a bigger thing a while back). It is essential the same argument as the survivor one. What can you do as a killer to counter what a survivor does when no matter what the killer does the survivor can counter it. If the killer has to be reactive and hope the survivor plays poorly to win, then who is in control? No killer-survivor interaction, since every chase boils down to bloodlust against a survivor who plays perfectly
I don't know how BHVR could solve this other than make killers with the perceived feeling of control/counterplay on both sides. I think the closest thing they have is Ghostface but I don't think they did it on purpose.
Random closing thoughts: I think every single killer in the current game has situations where there is nothing a survivor could do to counterplay that killer. They're all situationally strong. The general counterplay to this is to not end up in that situation. For some killers this is easier to do while for others this is more difficult. The nerf with Billy seems to be to increase skill ceiling while limiting the amount of situations where there is no counterplay. Whether or not that's a good idea or fun is a whole other debate. Then there's spirit who does have counterplay but it doesn't really feel like you're doing anything against them.
Here's a hot take: base spirit is close to ghostface in terms of counterplay. You're essentially playing the same hide and seek mind game + stealth. It just doesn't feel like it.
Take whatever thoughts you'd like from this. I just hope people understand a little bit more about both sides.
Comments
Most people don't think about the game from a detatched perspective. It's all about their feelings and how they percieve things.
Mechanically the game should offer strengths AND weaknesses. Where those stats lie is the issue. The game is so mechanically simple though so any small change to the dynamic is magnified.
Then there's the psychology most bring to this game. If it doesn't immediately turn things in their favor, it's worthless. Or they absolutely refuse to bend to what they see as antagonistic. Ok you picked a side. But you're only the hero in your own story. Doesn't make you right about everything because you refuse to be flexible.
Think people are being overly pedantic about this. Yes some killers are uncounterable in theory. If you had an super- AI play a nurse then it would be gg but you as a survivor can still make actions that make it so that the killer has to be perfect in order to get you and for average and even alot of good killers that is enough to be called a counter. Going around LoS with a nurse player will increase their chance of making errors as opposed to not doing so. If they try to go around you can run perpendicular away from the wall as most will expect you to just go around. They still have the potential to make perfect moves but who cares?
This isn't even uncommon in any pvp game where you have diverse characters/classes or whatever. There's going to be a specific playstyle that is in theory unbeatable if played perfectly but if balanced with difficulty like with nurse they're usually not an issue in practice.
I would also add that this game isn't only a 1v1 its a 1v4 so again, I don't see the problem if chases aren't a 50/50 input battle.
The point is that a lot of survivors try the same line of play with all killers. And with some of them, that line is good, for some of them it still works, but for some, it doesnt. But instead of adeptiong the playstyle vs those killers, they try their favorite one and then call the killer uncounterable.
The thing about Legion is that there is still counterplay to their power. Original Legion is the closest existence to no counterplay unless u 4 man swf with specific tactics. As for the Legion of today, U could slam a pallet in their face. It's difficult with how the server works but doable. If the Legion was 12(?)m away run a straight line and their power runs out b4 hitting u. Certain maps/obstacles/perk combinations can allow you to out play Legions power. If you're going to get hit anyway correct positioning will make getting the second hit much more difficult and/or would give other survivors a better chance of not getting hit by Legion's power. Also, you could still drag out the time b4 getting that first hit(another of those counters that ppl sleep on). It adds on that little bit of pressure for the killer and if all 4 survivors do it multiple times things start adding up. As for the rest of what you said I mostly agree.
Problem is, too often, when a survivor calls for nerfs etc,... its because they have 0 hours as killer.
And too often, when a killer calls for nerfs, it's becauise they have zero hours as survivor.
Personally, I dont really listen to anyone who marches on one side. I prefer people who have master knowledge of the game at both sides.
I'd agree with you b4 nurses nerf but after it... The thing with super-ai nurse is can it beat 4 super-ai survivors built to counter it? The answer would be I dunno. If the super-ai nurse was allowed to always slug then I think it would win most of the time, except there are a few good strats super-ai survivors could use that might make it rough for a slugging nurse.
If the only counter to those killer is rushing gen at rank 1. It's very boring gameplay. Chase is what is fun in this game. If you bypass that then all the game are the same. You split, you press m1 you pray to not be the one he decide to chase. Rinse and repeat. And if you play solo and your teammate are potatos then it's gg. Where is the fun in that.
I played Pyramidhead for quite a bit. It's super easy to play and way too effective at zoning.
DEAD by daylight
A game where most survivors live.
And the killer role keeps getting nerfed to be more difficult and the longer survivors play the less mistakes they make for killers to capitalize on.
A game built as the killer win condition to be a 4k but Ballence for 2E.
But don't worry as long as a survivor walks out they win. Gens or no lol free hatch every match :D
The thing is you're proving my point. It isn't that there is no counterplay to fight it. There are plenty of things you could do to fight it. It's that we're talking about whether it's fun, fair, feels like you're actively fighting or the strength of Legion in this aspect is too strong. Respecting pallets and baiting drops is still mind gaming each other. If they respect it too much u just wait it out and waste their time/power. If they try to bait u don't fall for it. If the servers actually worked out this would be a lot better and hit validation would probably be a good step for this. As for the 12m thing, you're right about the add-on stuff but it only extends it a small amount. You run, get to a loop. Play with the pallet and the timer hopefully runs out. Legions 1st hit is only free of you let it be free. You are also right that there are situations where you're screwed with the hit but that goes back to what I said b4. Should survivors always be able to counter things a killer can do at all times, leading to m1 bloodlust being the on average optimal time saver against good survivors. Now you can argue that it's harder to avoid the situations where Legion can give you that 1st smack when compared to most killers but that's why Legion has those other draw backs in the 4v1 and the second hit. You're going to kill the one thing that makes Legion relevant. That's probably a big problem with BHVR design philosophy. There's always that 1 situationally uncounterable thing a killer's power let's them do and ppl want it nerfed so it's either gone or even more situational.
You really have to start thinking of the game in a 4v1 situation cuz if even survivors don't think of the game in as a 4v1 killers won't either. That'll lead to toxic facecamping cuz they won the 1v1. At least that's what a killer actually told me lol.
I think the game is decently balanced at this point outside of mm, swf vs solo queue and little tweaks here and there for everyone. Definitely not perfect but it's getting as close as it can humanly get without changing the core game mechanics, like gen times, number of hits, etc.
The sad thing is I think gen rushing is the most optimal decision to do against every killer, just like tunneling/slugging and even camping at times is the most optimal decision for killer. It's definitely not the only counter against 99% of killers though. The 2 killers that its the only counter to is the afk/farming (usually Wraith) killers and the 1st hook facecamper.
Think of it this way. I can pull off a dead hard to Dodge killer attacks, hit great skill checks, hit that locker thing that stubs the killer (I forgot the name), bait unhooks so that instead of being grabbed i get hit and loop/counter killer mind games 60% of the time. I think of myself as an average survivor (and a very sub par killer). My point here is if I can do this, then outside of server problems and hit detecting problems a lot of people can do it better. The thing is you're acting like it's up to the Legion when u decide to pull the trigger on the pallet.
As for the other things, some things are out of your control and some things are. Ur goal is to do your best not to be in a position where the Legion easily gets that first hit. If you force the Legion to have to walk close to you and then use their power, then you've done your job. You've won that battle and you still have another hit. What do you think would be fair then?
By those parameters technically no killer is counterable. They will eventually get that first hit on you and eventually hook you. You're control is when this happens or if you manage to escape.