twistedmonkey
twistedmonkey
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@Nobsyde said:
I would ask the same to yourself? Competent swf run about constantly. They hardly walk unless it's beneficial as it wastes time. I wasn't referring to them being bad players but they run about bobbing there heads back and forth. Dont tsake it too literally as I am saying they are bad. They just dont care about being seen. Good players want to be chased as they are confident. It also enables the rest to do what is needed even more so in an swf.
I would gladly answer you: yes, I do play a lot as killer, rank 1 and at the time I'm focusing on Legion - again, my question was not provocative and you still haven't answered to be fair :P. I'm also a rank 1 solo survivor, but queue times are too high right now so I'm playing it less and less (plus: it's honestly too easy, also because a lot of the times I face killers which are much lower ranked than me and the rest of the team).
Now back to the point: so... you agree on me that those chickens don't care to be seen because it enables the rest to do what is needed, which is exactly what I said: they are a decoy, if you follow those clicky-clicky survivors, you won't have a good time, most of the time.
Meaning: yeah, I use Ruin to buy me some time and find someone, but it was implicit that this someone shouldn't be a clicky-clicky survivor that's just going to try to loop me on the opposite side from where everyone else is :P. Also remember that if I'm chasing someone, in order to the totem to be cleansed only two survivors can be working on a generator, so yeah, for 30 seconds I have not only Ruin's effect (which at high ranks is not that relevant anyway), but most importantly 50% less survivors working on generator(s).
Devs don't like it, because, between other reasons, it's too easy for a killer to just gain this advantage without efforts, but what they fail to realise is that
- after those 30 seconds, we have only 3 perks instead of 4.
- we wouldn't run Ruin anyway, if there was a real alternative (or if it wasn't needed, because it's not fun to use, at all!).
- BUT THE HATCH AND THE KEYS AND ADRENALINE AND DS...! (I'm joking)
In any case, I'm not saying that now killers are screwed, I'm confident enough to say that I will still be able to win the majority of my games. Problem is that playing killer is already stressful, and it will become even more so, especially against very good teams. You could say that if I / we find it so stressful, we could just play survivor but.. that's exactly the problem: queue times.
I did answer but of course so play at high ranks in both sides and have done so since 2016.
I have played Trapper, Huntress, Hag and Myers mainly but prefer to rotate and play who I feel so play them all a decent amount.
No I did not agree 😛 Those chickens are practically all survivors at red ranks as its just symbolizing players running around. Most will run to the first gen they see and then run everywhere else. If they walk they probably have SB which doesn't show a good red rank player imo. It's not about the clicky clicky decoy as every killer should know not to chase them. They will chase you around to get attention anyway so of course its best to let them.
The main issue with ruin is good survivors won't bother to destroy it unless it's in plain sight or if they are checking normal spots they know on the way to another gen. They wont go out their way and work through it negating its use entirely. Ruin only helps versus players who cant work through it and need to take the time search for it
If the best players aren't affected then it only helps versus players you shouldnt really need it against.
I personally feel the devs want it changed as its having to much if an impact on the game. They normally dont change something like this until its at the point where its deemed necessary.
Of course killers arent screwed. Hopefully most will adapt that can and wonder why they used ruin at all. I haven't used it since 2017 and have never felt I needed it.
Killer is stressful at times but that is true of most PvP games where you need to play at the top of your game. Solo survivor can also be stressful at times but you can get enough downtime to lessen it in each match.
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@Polychrome_Baku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976828#Comment_976828
That's like saying if a survivor used sprint burst to cover up their bad positioning to get to red ranks, that means they don't belong there. Perks exist to give you advantages. Just so happens that Ruin helps a killer in their MAIN OBJECTIVE. I haven't used ruin in ages but some of you seem to act like Ruin wins chases for you. Get real. Or do we have to play perkless to "belong" in a rank?
I've never saw an exhaustion perk or any perk guarantee a pip. They have all been changed over time to stop this from happening. You do know SB used to be a 20s cooldown even when running? How it used to be was a huge crutch perk as it could be used multiple times within a chase that is why it has been changed a few times since release.
Ruin when up can and does affect every aspect of the killer play as it gives the player time. Chases, hits, hooks, gen time, sacrifices it all is helped with ruin. It helps with every emblem when it's effective and one especially. Naturally it inherently then helps players rank up. I feel that is why the devs have decided on the change now.
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@Nobsyde said:
What they wrote like most cases will be a reason but not how they came to the reason. Never take things at face value. What it implies is it was working too well. It all depends on how one wishes to see it.
They also never said people cared about the gatekeeper emblem again its what you wish to see. How it reads for myself is it was working too well for it ergo making it too easy to get.
First: the post says what are the reasons for the change. Of course they have debated about other things, but thinking that there is some esoteric and imponderable, but still very relevant, thought behind Ruin change other than (1) it sucked for noobs, (2) it was a brainless mainstay of every high rank build, (3) inconsistency of skill checks is naive at best, malicious at worst. If Devs say that this was their reasoning, I believe them, I don't do second guessing on what they have (not) said.
Second: you are right, they didn't explicitly said that players care about the Gatekeeper Emblem, but that's not what I said either. In fact, I said that their actions go in that direction (that is: change Gatekeeper Emblem system as if that is what needs to be addressed after Ruin is gone - if players don't care about emblems, then why the change? I'm asking you.), but I seriously doubt that they don't know what we really do care about (that is: slow the Early game). In fact they stated it themselves, but this (the early game gen rush) has not been addressed, and that's why we are all upset.
I never said they do affect early game. They are slowdown perks and its seems clear the devs dedided they dont want something to possibly stall the game for too long without at least doing something for it to happen.
It is clear, I agree with you. In fact, I'm not against Ruin changes per se.
Hell, I hate using Ruin!
I'm against the change without addressing early game gen rushing at high ranks at the same time. I know, you say that they do things one step at a time, and I'm telling you this is infuriating, because (1) we don't know if this step will ever happen and (2) even if it happens, we don't know in which time frame. Freddy, Legion, Dedicated Server, DC bans, sound bugs, humongous maps should have taught us something by now, don't you agree?
If you truly only need to find someone within 20-30s I don't see how ruin is important. It's very easy to find players at red ranks within that time frame as most always run about like headless chickens.
Again I'm asking you, and that's not a provocative question in any way: do you play as killer? Competent swf teams don't run about like headless chickens, if they do that they have a purpose (for example, the chicken is in fact a single scout for Ruin and for the killer, good at looping, that will get you out of the way while communicating to the others what to do). You can't chase those scouts, or you will simply lose. You have to find someone that is doing (better: is going to do) something useful objective wise, and not get distracted. Of course there are high ranks teams which just mess around, but those were not the problem anyway - Ruin was not used for them in the first place.
You talk about high ranks like if they were in fact the ones easier to beat, which I don't know, maybe your region is easier to play on :P?
Many posts state reasons as being sime info as when it comes to a stream they elaborate on those. A post regarding a chnge is some info for ua to ponder and once they do elaborate it always becomes more clear. Nothing is quite as simple as its written as its far more beneficial for them to talk about it when the time comes. I'm sure they take a lot of time to deliberate regarding any changed. It why they take so long after all. If you have ever watched a dev stream this would be clear as it happens with most changes.
The gatekeeper emblem well it may not be important to some but it seems it is to them. Overall the gatekeeper was discussed as it was directly affected by ruin. That is of course the need to state something regarding what they will change on it as without ruin it won't work as effectively as it does now. What it says to me is it seems possible it was originally designed with ruin in mind.
Changes always take time. There have been numerous ones done without fixing something on the other side. Fixing an issue doesn't always reflect the whole plan and of course some need fixed before the impact can be seen so other changes can come into play. The next step imo should be survivor speed up items and perks. These I have expressed many times now imo need a hard cap so they don't stack and are mainly used to help with slowdown effects in the game.
I would ask the same to yourself? Competent swf run about constantly. They hardly walk unless it's beneficial as it wastes time. I wasn't referring to them being bad players but they run about bobbing there heads back and forth. Dont tsake it too literally as I am saying they are bad. They just dont care about being seen. Good players want to be chased as they are confident. It also enables the rest to do what is needed even more so in an swf.
High ranks are never easy and they shouldn't be. They take a greatvdegree of skill and knowledge as killer. What we shouldn't have is anyone in those ranks and why both sides need to be better seperated. I feel this may stave the complaints more as too many it seems feel it should be a given that they can and will be able to compete within those ranks.
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977583#Comment_977583
I don't know if you read the Dev Blog post, but what I'm saying is not a mere speculation, it's exactly what they stated:
We also looked carefully to see how it functions as part of a Killer's loadout. Beyond the obvious desire to slow down generator repair, Hex: Ruin functions as one of the very few perks effective as slowing generator repair in the first couple of minutes of the Trial. This is important to Killers' rankings because the Gatekeeper Emblem highly rewards keeping as many of the 7 generators incomplete as they can for as long as possible.
In other words, that's their answer to the question Why are players using it.
And you know what? That's correct! I don't care if someone somewhere uses Ruin for other reasons: this is the real and most useful reason to use it.
The problem is that they apparently think that the reason why we want to slow the early game is for the Gatekeeper Emblem point system, which is like saying that people hate mosquitos because they don't like the smell of anti-mosquitos sprays. But again, I'm sure that they know why we want to slow the early game, it's just that they still haven't come up with an elegant solution to that.
Let them test it out, we'll think about it. That's their approach, right now.
On another note, all the perks that you mentioned, aside for Corrupt (which I already addressed anyway), have nothing to do with the early game, and I already said that I don't really care if Ruin gets cleansed in 20-30 seconds, I just need to at least see a survivor before the first generator pops, so I don't really understand what is your point in saying that we'll, basically, git gud at chasing without Ruin now. Honest question: do you play killer?
My response was sue to you bstating it was due to 80% using it. I also said there are many reasons.
What they wrote like most cases will be a reason but not how they came to the reason. Never take things at face value. What it implies is it was working too well. It all depends on how one wishes to see it.
They also never said people cared about the gatekeeper emblem again its what you wish to see. How it reads for myself is it was working too well for it ergo making it too easy to get.
I never said they do affect early game. They are slowdown perks and its seems clear the devs dedided they dont want something to possibly stall the game for too long without at least doing something for it to happen.
If you truly only need to find someone within 20-30s I don't see how ruin is important. It's very easy to find players at red ranks within that time frame as most always run about like headless chickens.
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@Nobsyde said:
Meta perks are meta for a reason. Not becasue they fix issues but they make players feel stronger or better than they may be.
It's a common issue with lots of PvP games and why anything meta needs eventually looked at as to why its used and this is what has been happening over the last year.
That's not entirely true; yeah, all meta perks make you stronger, but not everything that makes you stronger increases your skill artificially. Plus, the game has objectives issues, like maps that are so big that you simply can't reach the furthest generator before it being repaired, if survivors are on it. Ruin addressed this issue.
In fact, I don't care at all if Ruin is cleansed in the first 20-30 seconds of the game - I just need to find someone before one generator is completed, that's it.
Usually in PvP games if a perk / a unit / an ability is overused they ask themselves two basic questions:
- why our players are using it?
- is it giving an unfair advantage over other players?
Take a fighting game: if a character is used a lot, but in tournaments players who win are not using it, the answer is that the character is more fun or easier to use than others, but it's not overly strong. The solution would be to buff other under used (and under performing) characters, not to nerf the culprit - in fact it could very well be the case that it should be buffed as well, while trying to increase its learning curve as well.
Instead, if that character is winning a lot of tournaments, no matter the player, then the problem is that there's something wrong on its balance. In this case a nerf could be needed.
Now think about a RTS game like StarCraft - once a certain opening or build composition becomes meta, they will probably tinker some numbers or even add / delete certain abilities. Their goal, though, is not to discourage this or that play style, the goal is to facilitate new builds/tactics which can be equally viable.
What DbD devs have done is entirely different though; they saw an overused perk, they disregarded the reason why that's used (because I refuse to believe they don't understand Ruin is used for the early game, to delay the first 1-2 generators, and there's that), and they simply concentrated on why it does work. No compensation for the change, no analysis on killer frustration when Ruin was insta cleansed in the first place, nothing. Well, let's be more precise, they probably did think about this, but they obviously decided that any other change to the early game will come eventually.
There's no design plan there, other than high ranks players be unpaid beta testers.
So yeah, what should killers do if they want to delay the onset of the mid to late game? Run Corrupt Intervention? What then, 80% of high ranks matches will just have immersed survivors for 2 minutes? That seems not frustrating at all :)!
I could continue, but I think you can get the point.
I'm not saying it's true for all but it is for some.
We never compare meta in one game to another much like balancing as they are all different. The examples you chose though simply state why meta's are changed and why it's needed if theyvare too strong.
Why the devs did this we don't actually know. It's speculation to think its just becasue it was used by 80%. I would be there are many reasons for the change like why it is being used as much, the impact on the games itself, how long it lasts and how long gens took etc.
To say there is no design plan is not true. Every change so far has been to try and make something less obnoxious along with balancing. It's unfortunate there is one example of Legion who has been in the cross fire with some needed changes due to new perks effecting them the most.
There is surge, surveillance, pgtw, corrupt. There are tracking and chase perks. We adapt and stop relying on just one thing to do the job for us and try to do better without it. We learn better how to chase and mind game, take the time to learn how to run tiles. There are many things good player do over bad one but what better ones do is see what they did wrong.
@Joekillu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977403#Comment_977403
My dude I didn't say it's "always " needed. High and high med definitely not. However if your playing a low or slow killer on couple maps that are very large its almost a must. If they would address those maps first. There probably wouldn't have been sooo much hate. Also from what I've seen with new ruin to make it some what affective you need surveillance. If you are not on a average size map.imo. Saying 20% dont. Really it is not really a valid point because the 20% isn't saying who there using, what the load out is ect..that is just saying 20% of all matches in red its not used. The 1 in 5 doesn't mean they don't on every killer that's ridiculous. I'm sure there are people that dont on any that's cool. As far as my comment 80% of all matches not killers in red. I was just poking the bear a bit. Take a breath an chill...its a game.
Which is what they have said they are doing. Maybe ruin was making this harder to see the whole picture.
Saying 80% doesn't matter for the exact same reasons you mentioned. Since only a set amount of killers are said to be viable and only used at high ranks it means it was then primarily used in theory on the ones who don't need it at all.
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@illusion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977336#Comment_977336
I think you missed my point. We'll stick with the "two wrongs don't make a right" concept. The problem is that they are only attempting to fix one of them, rather than coming up with a plan to fix both and implementing them together. Using a crutch when you have a broken leg is perfectly acceptable. Ruin would only be too powerful if the other problems were fixed, but they aren't even being acknowledged by the devs.
As you say, this was a bad design change, but it is made even worse by not addressing the underlying problem that led to it.
I would also say that a lot of survivors don't deserve their ranks either, but due to the current play mechanics, they are ranked much higher than they should be. It's not just a killer thing.
Then we also give feedback to ask for a toolbox change. Which is what I have been doing even before this change was announced.
It's rare they make changes together as they tend to like to see the impact of one to see how much the other needs tweaked. I wouldn't be surprised if they have toolboxes in their sights.
I would agree lots of survivors don't. They did make it harder but then made it easier again as the killer queues were an issue do to not enough ranking up. With the gatekeeper emblem changes I think will see what happens and then they may well do it again if this impacts matchmaking too much.
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@Joekillu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976469#Comment_976469
You mean the 80% in red rank?lol
That is 20% who dont need it so thats 1 in 5 killers, so why is it always needed? dont you think it seems strange that 1 in 5 killers dont?
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@illusion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977215#Comment_977215
Ruin didn't help people get to a stage they shouldn't be at. It was used to counter the underlying problem that the devs are failing to address. Most killers would rather not use ruin, as it is often just a wasted perk slot, but it was their only option to try and balance that underlying problem.
Two wrongs don't make a right? Sure, not that I would consider using ruin wrong. The problem is that the devs are only "fixing" one side. If there are two wrongs, then they should fix both, wouldn't you say? Not only did they nerf ruin, but they didn't remove it's obvious drawback of being so vulnerable to being completely removed from the match. It was a poorly thought out design decision..
If that is the case then one should not need it at all like the many others that never use it. I would argue without it many probably wouldnt make it to the rank they are at. No matter what changes to the game have been made Ruin has always been meta due to its potential to make games slower. Its because of this some will always rely too heavily on it. A test to see where some would end up without it if reset back to rank 20 would be interesting to say the least.
I never said using Ruin was wrong. I said allowing two mechaincs which are wrong shouldnt be accepted. I did say in the post you quted toolboxes need looked at. Quote from it below.
"I have posted a few times recently that I think they should be made more to combat slow down effects and a hard cap on max gen speed needs to be set so perks and these items can't stack too much and make them go stupidly fast."
Personally I dont like the change as I have said. I am all for a change to Ruin as I do feel it does artificially inflate someone's capability. The change though well quite frankly i find the perk useless now. It does nothing for the killer if they are in a chase and makes players stay on gens to finish them instead of saving.
Hooking someone and being in a chase should be applying pressure to at least 3 survivors as 1 should want to go for the save. This change seems to only now apply that pressure to 2 as they simply wont leave the gen to save for the regression aspect. I dont find any there to be urgency for survivors to remove Ruin like other perks. its not rewarding enough for the risk to use it.
I think it could do with a change but I really dont beleive this is the one.
@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977248#Comment_977248
I just pointed out he is not as good and also exaggerates from time to time but ok. Also Trapper has potential other killers do not have.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977215#Comment_977215
The question than is why you even get caught by the bad one in the first place but also there he just wants to get at least one kill. The other simply leaves because he knows there is still time most will however try to get another stack of bbq.
Why do strong killers return? Well as I said, it is yet the most effective way for them to apply pressure and get the snowball going.
I was speaking in general regarding camping. It is of course hard for them to catch a good player but they will eventually. Bad billy's of course are not just exclusive to low ranks. Ive seen many with over 1k hours who I do well with many other killers they play.
That just it. even with the strongest player some do it no matter how many gens are left. i can understand it if one is not fing well but to do it within the first minute of a match? yes this happens a lot. They could easily apply pressure by chasing another off a gens but they instead choose to go back to the hook with 5 gens and Ruin up.
That is the thing both sides can do things which will end the game too quickly if thats how they set out too play and why the devs want to promote doing more for more enaging matches on both sides.
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@Endstille said:
To some degree probably however those strategies / tactics would not have seen the light of day if not given the problem.
How often do you get camped by a billy? After they down someone in 99% they are off to the next one. Coincedence? I doubt it.
A good Billy rarely but a bad one that misses half his chansaws? Quite Often. The same can be said for most other players what are good with any killer. I don't see them camping as much.
Take the Spirit. Why do so many using a strong killer instantly come back to the hook? What is it that makes some what to instantly 4k in as little time as possible? As I said its a mindset which is extremely hard to change.
@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977011#Comment_977011
You didn't listen there have Not been any changes to gen speeds or the basics of a chase, for that reason that test is still relative despite being a long time ago. Also I don't think I should win every game but the way this game is built does not support 4 minute games when every player is playing optimally. As for the killer finishing games early that mainly happens because the survivors screw up badly and rarely is it because the killer actually out plays them all.
And if you want to try to phrase my words in a way that sounds like I think that the killer should always win than I can play that too cause it seems to me that you think 4 minute games are healthy for this game and all games should be based on that time frame. In other words the killer should be able to kill all survivors in that time frame even when the survivors dont make major mistakes. consistently.
so actually argue your points instead of trying that bs phrasing non sense and consider the other sides point instead of brushing it off.
That is becasue they don't want to increase pressing m1 and they instead concentrated on chase times. Hence the pallet and window changes along with time changes. It seems they would rather concentrate on good play rather than just making it easier for the masses to do well without learning to run certain spots better.
Killers can end the game in under 3m its been shown many times. What that comes down too is a difference between good and bad players but for some reason being able to be the better player can and should apply to only one side it seems.
If you wish to argue a point please be better informed on what does happen in the game. 4m games are not the norm at red ranks this has already been debunked. What is the norm though is some do lose badly but may be just maybe that's probably once they lose the one perk which has them where they shouldn't be while others that don't know how to apply more pressure.
@illusion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977011#Comment_977011
Meta perks are meta for a reason, true. But it's definitely not because it makes you feel stronger than you are. It means they work best for the current situation. Ruin is meta because it attempts to combat the underlying issue that gens can be completed far to quickly. And it is currently balanced by the fact that the totem can be destroyed, completely nullifying the perk. Self care may be slower, but at least you can use it throughout the whole match, and there are ways to speed it up.
It's funny that it is ok to use toolboxes to speed up working on gens, but using a perk that slows them down is bad. Especially when that perk can be lost within seconds of the match starting.
Yet most meta perks are called crutches on both sides. What is a crutch of course depends on what side they play and why it needs to be looked at from both standpoint. When a perk helps someone get to stage they shouldn't is that perk helping or carrying? That is the question you need to ask about certain ones and why a change is needed.
I'm all for a toolbox change. I have posted a few times recently that I think they should be made more to combat slow down effects and a hard cap on max gen speed needs to be set so perks and these items can't stack too much and make them go stupidly fast.
Two wrongs don't make a right and being objective means we should be looking at both aspects and never assume one is ok with the other being too strong.
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976790#Comment_976790
Because no change actually fixed core issues and were just bandaids? Like you know ruin for example.
But are part of those core issues the strats killers also use?
You fix gen speed and slow the game down but then how do they fix those others?
Then what becomes of those that do well but still have a challenge? Does it become too easy for them? It's not a simple as make it so everyone can do well.
@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976828#Comment_976828
To slow gen speeds in high rank? YES
your skill level does NOT matter when faced with a optimal swf team that spread out, do the right gens, and last long in chases(+40 sec in a chase). A good killer cannot put pressure onto all 4 of the survivors like this and will have to give up chases and pressure to keep the gens that are close to each other and even then the team can get those gens done with coordination. I have had games without ruin end in 4 minutes even tho I was always chasing survivors of gens and got a decent amount of hooks. The depip squad is the best example on why this is realistic since there has not been any changes to the game that will affect how fast gens get done since it was preformed. If we are going to talk about high rank than SWF has to be considered since its used the most at high rank.
Of course a skill level shows in high ranks otherwise those that are there without ruin would not be. If one needs a certain perk then its more about what the perk does for you than your own skill.
So you think no game should be lost ever?
The depip squad was an old test of what can be done but not what is and many changes were made to the game since then. The average game time at red ranks was 12m long after that but for some its always 4m every game.
Should they change its impossible for a killer to 4k in under 3mins as that also happens.
@illusion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976418#Comment_976418
Firstly, I don't recall those survivor changes making the perk useless, because it can't be used after a minute or two of starting the game. Ruin was always a risk vs reward perk. When the totem is found early it becomes a wasted perk slot. Now, they claim it's a late game perk, which is ridiculous when the totems don't make it to late game. It might be fine if they removed it as a hex and just made it a normal perk.
Btw, some of the survivor nerfs were also a bandaid fix that addressed the symptoms rather than the underlying problems. Some perks or abilities are clearly over/under powered all on their own. Others are under/over powered to to underlying conditions. Too many of the changes they make are based on the later. They need to address the underlying problems instead of buffing/nerfing individual perks.
Self care is a meme at this point. MoM is rarely seen. I don't see how they weren't major changes to the perks even if still useful.
I don't like the ruin change personally as I don't feel its worth a slot but I never used it anyway. I do however see the reasoning for a change. If a perk works only versus bad players then what does it really do for the game?
How do they objectively look at stats on balancing when one perk makes them look more in one sides favour?
Meta perks are meta for a reason. Not becasue they fix issues but they make players feel stronger or better than they may be.
It's a common issue with lots of PvP games and why anything meta needs eventually looked at as to why its used and this is what has been happening over the last year.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976418#Comment_976418
The devs have nerfed Things like flashlights, insta heals, and brand new parts if you want to compare something powerful that survivors have had that is on the same level as ruin. However Ruin affects the MAIN issue which is and always has been gen repair speed which is why its strong. The new Ruin does not help against gen rushers or just an optimal team and nothing has been done about gen speeds. Survivors had items that were literally game breaking meanwhile ruin either is destroyed quickly or it slows down gen speed for 2 minutes and against people who can hit the ruin skill check it only only slows them down slightly. IF anything it will makes games less fun because there will be less time spent in matches due to quick gen speeds.
That still begs the question as it only seems to be the main issue for some while others do well or even better than those without it.
Is it then too powerful and just artificially puts one at a rank they wouldn't normally be at compounding an issue they aren't capable of dealing with? So if person needed ruin to get to red ranks do you feel they actually belong there?
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976681#Comment_976681
Yeah i know you didn't mention it. But you stated something in response to somebody talking about it.
There is a reason for it and why people do it. Tunneling is simply the killer doing the objective due to the fact that killers are against a ticking clock and have to snowball. If BHVR would actually reduce stresslevels for killers and get rid of the pressure they would probably get the game into a far more healthy experience for everybody.
Do you honestly think killers (aside from outliers who enjoy to facecamp with bubba) would stick around hooked people and tunnel if they knew they do not have the feeling that it is necessary and also being the most efficient way to apply more pressure?
Also the hex ruin nerf does not really change much for the top tier killers, the weak killers on the roster are gonna suffer the most for it.
I honestly do yes as not one change has stopped it so far. Why would any others be different? this community has a bad habbit of playing just to annoy the other side. I dont see that ever changing.
Right now people tunnel, Camp and slug at 5 gens within all ranks. They have the pressure already yet but they do it. Some players will always just want to kill as fast as possible and pipping is not a requirement for them.
To change this you have to change a mindset not just a mechanic.
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976588#Comment_976588
The diffrence being experienced survivors usually have the tools to deal with camping/tunneling. Newbies do not, they are the ones that BHVR cares about. Look it up, check steam reviews, check metacritic that is the reason why new players do not stick with the game (alongside bugs that take forever to be fixed, poor optimization and dlc/paywalls).
You know even when they do rank down all the way to rank 14. They are not excluded from being matched with red rank survivors teams due to the lack of killers (i assume it is due to a lack of killers). So what good does deranking do them? xD
i never mentioned camping or tunneling but even so if it didnt work then it would never happen at red ranks but it does. The fact is all the strats including slugging have always been used. nothing has stopped players who wish to using them. So as I said history has shown there is not one indication that most ever will if something changed.
Never look at reviews without being objective as most you read will show people just unhappy at the game when changes like this happen. They make a review and never update it or change it and review bomb when needed. Its happened with both survivor and killer changes in the past and I dont see that ever changing.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976469#Comment_976469
They don't wanna have to slug everyone, camp them or tunnel? Survivors complain about all of those things on a regular basis, and players like Otz do them on a regular basis.
Players will alwqys do that regardless.
If the history of the game has taught us anything is that no matter what changes are made people will always use what they can if they wish too.
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@Rivyn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976418#Comment_976418
And the fact that Ruin was used to slow the gen rush is 'balanced?' I understand that Ruin could be annoying to new players, I remember my first few matches against it. But you learn and adapt.
That's not saying us killers won't do the same with the change, but Ruin was the end result of a bigger problem, not the other way around. All this change is going to do is increase match speeds. If gen rushing was an issue before, we're going into hyperdrive with this.
That depends on the player. Many good players don't ever use ruin.
If they don't rely on it and stay at red ranks what does that say about those that do?
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@SpacemanOnTheCouch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976354#Comment_976354
This change is a complete contradiction to balance. The issue was Gen speed, not Ruin.
The changes to Vaults, Pallets, Insta Heals, Exhaustion, Self-Care and Mom were neither Nerfs or Buffs, but as you said changes. The Ruin 'change' is a nerf, pure and simple. Just as, Nurse, Legion, Pig and now Doctor has been.
Freddy, was a buff.
You don't see those other changes which made them all weaker than they were as nerfs? Doesn't that mean the killer ones would also be just changes then?
True bias only comes from seeing one side and not acknowledging changes to the other.
@Rivyn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976354#Comment_976354
Except the devs themselves say they are using the current nerfs for the 'fun and frustration' of the survivor, not balance.
So what were those survivors nerfs done for? Balance and fun always go hand in hand.
It wasn't fun for killers to face certain things ergo they nerfed them.
The devs have always used fun and balance when talking about the game. The issue is alot of the community only sees what happens to the side they play and ignore the others made.
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@SpacemanOnTheCouch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976271#Comment_976271
Still haven't addressed the reason why people are upset about this nerf. A lot of it has to do with your post and the bias towards survivors...because they are so frustrated playing against Ruin and Doctor.
Every change is done for a reason to help with balancing with fun also in mind.
Do you think changes done to Vaults, Pallets, Insta heals, exhaustion, self care, MoM etc etc were all done for the survivors benefit?
In theory Namnow people should naturally start to find they play more in a bracket they should be at.
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@prismalorg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976085#Comment_976085
does the survivor get any sort of indication on the right of their screen like they used to? as in the cursed status effect showing up?
Yeah it still shows Ruin is in play as before.
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@Fleece said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/975540#Comment_975540
Ben & Jerry's funky monkey?
Nope phish food 😛
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50k and above is a spike when a dlc drops, event or dbp is on.
Normal player base is generally between 20-30k.
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Not at all.
What is normal of these forums is when any change happens to either side they dislike there are some that wish it would due to spite.
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@USELESS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/975428#Comment_975428
Actually I don't think that million people play this. On maximum 250k. This game is not that famous
The last figures for ps4 a couple of months back had 500k users in one month played the game. One blight event had the highest users on pc ever with over 1million different peoole playing that alone.
The game is out on pc, ps4, Xbox, switch and so in to be mobile.
It's not hard to think between them all each month over 1million or more may play the game.
Pc alone has between 5million to 10 million owners on steam.
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@USELESS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/975393#Comment_975393
I know that. There are thousands people here.
Compare thousands to over a million that play across over all platforms and you see the bigger picture.
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That's because the forums are a tiny fraction of the user base and most people on them are generally there to complain about something.
If they listened to everyone on forums all the time no change would ever have went through.
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@HexMoriMeMommy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/975286#Comment_975286
See, normally I'd agree, but this is something pretty damn big to the point the general consensus I've seen is that this is nothing but a scummy lazy move from them, something that is actively besmirching their name, it would be without a doubt better to confirm or deny this at it's head because if it's true then they can try and explain themselves now.
If it's not then they can simply say.
"We aren't lazy and trying to sweep a massive issue under the rug."
They don't generally responded to leaks false or true.
MoM was a classic example as that was talked about for a while before they discussed it with the players.
Sometimes The community managers don't have all the information at hand and they also need internally discuss the matter to fully understand why and if a change is being made before commenting here on it so they can answer everyone's questions properly.
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I think the overall problem with tool boxes is there is not cap on how fast things can go.
If you have resilience, prove thyself up from anothet and the fastest toolbox possible in play i'd say that goes stupidly fast and us way too much.
Now imagine if there was a hard cap of say maybe 10% over normal speed for anything. What these perks and items then do is help more with the slowdown effects as they increase the speed more when stacked when some add-ons or perks are in play.
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I feel this may be due to a background change we don't know about yet.
Who knows maybe the matchmaking is being opened up and just mixing everyone into one huge group.
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I think the change is a bit meh for killers. when paired with certain gen perks like discordance or surveillance (if it stacks with that) it is still quite situational but may work well. Really Good or bad? Time will tell but for now I feel its not a great perk for kbut tbh I didn't think the original was either. Some were way too dependent on it and I feel it carried players more than good play much like some survivor perks.
Overall I'm not sure if it's good or bad for either side so needs a lot of testing.
I don't quite understand the reasoning of making it better for lower ranked players as this change could make it even worse for them. Sure they can stay on a gen easier but they are generally really timid and leave a gen to hide with the mere hint of a heartbeat. It will still affect them much more than red ranks.
Personally my initial feelings before testing is that I dislike the change and the reasoning given.
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Used ruin a few times in the past when I first got hag levelled up.
Never liked using the perk as I felt the need to protected it too much and it made me worse over time as a killer.
Took it off and never looked back.
I prefer perks which help in a chase as good survivors powered through the gens anyway. I learnt to mind Camelot better which in turn slowed the game down naturally as one being hooked, one going for the save and I'm chasing another means at least three are off gens anyway.
I also found out by leaving the hook and not patrolling they are more likely to heal for the points. Every little helps and by that point the 3rd is generally downed. Yes you get the odd instant save but I can slug or activate BT and just chase the unhooker.
It's also noticed a change in the mindset when players feel they can save more freely and feel under less pressure. I found players tried to rush more with ruin as they just wanted out and were a lot more try hard.
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@goat10em said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/972588#Comment_972588
Nobody is using those killers and consistently doing well. Again, you CAN do well because most red rank survivors are not that good. The result of your game depends on the skill of the survivors for the majority of the killers.
The same could be said for all players at red ranks. What it comes down to is time played to reach red ranks.
This is why some chose certain builds or killers all the time while others use a variety and do well with them all.
Always remember viability is not the ability to always 4k its the ability to 2k or pip. The emblem system is what stops some from pipping as that needs to reflect a 2k more for all killers as some killers like Legion its easier to pip without killing as much as say the Clown.
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@goat10em said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/972296#Comment_972296
This is not true at all. If you have a map that requires the killer the same amount of time to walk from one side to the other as it does to repair a gen almost there is nothing you can do. Most of these killers possess zero map pressure and maps are too big. It does not matter how good the player using the killer is.
If it's not true I guess those that can and are must be doing something thats just not possible 🙄.
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@goat10em said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/972187#Comment_972187
That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying any killer should be viable any game. The way it is now there are 2 or 3 killers that are viable against good survivors. I don't care of it's Zubat himself. As the clown, on a large map against good survivors you will fail. You will fail every single time. You need to have bad survivors in order to have good games with a lot of these killers.
There are literally loops that if ran correctly against certain killers it is completely impossible to catch them. That should not be a thing
The same was said for wraith until one person won 49/50 games with them at rank 1. Now people think they are viable.
Every killer can be viable if the person playing them knows exactly how to utilise the power. People will always gravitate to a meta and a killer meta is no differnet.
A meta is what yields the best overall results or in some cases which is easier to better with. Those that can do as well without using the meta show more skill imo.
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@Danky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971639#Comment_971639
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FMwsbsQek
@ 2:04 "killers get power" but not anymore.
again going back to 1v1 survivors but 2 all day everyday. since ive always ran FD on every killer other the Doctor i never worried about keys or insta-heals
Thst depends on the player. The killers do have power its just how well each person can use it and with whom.
Not everyone can be great at all games afterall. I fail to see why in this game that players always feel they should be though.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971795#Comment_971795
I would say the last bastion of BS that survivors hold now is the keys. But killers still have a wealth of overpowered items and characters to call upon.
And the keys are honestly not even that overpowered for solo Q, only for SWF on comms, which is overpowered to begin with. I don't mind keys in solo Q because it is very hard to communicate you even have one; or have found the hatch.
I can agree with that. Personally I just wish the things that were overpowered were a lot more rare to get.
When I ran plunderers for the challenge and I pulled 3 pink keys out of 5 chests I was in disbelief.
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@zzee19 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971736#Comment_971736
I think this discussion may be closed. Noone reads about adding honest time for repair action to stop regression (no matter the cause of it - perk, bug or killer leg!). Everyone is just triggered by Ruin - it is not the topic of this discussion!
Oops sorry every post is about Ruin I read it wrong and assumed this was too.
They did discuss when they don't want to do this. It makes certain perks along with 3 gens being patrolled from the start close by overly strong.
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Is it the killer or a mix of also certain perks carrying them then much like some survivors?
My point is always rank is not about skill but time. This game doesn't separate a 5k hour like yourself with a 100h player. This is why most complaints need to be taken with a grain of salt as they will be versing better players.
In your case you win 95% of your games then only 5% are top tier. So If it's down to bad rank 1 players on both sides then in theory that would even out as you need 4x the amount of bad survivors per bad killers to even it out in the stats.
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You are not reading the perk correctly.
While ruin is active It's an auto regression 2x the normal one at tier 3 If a gen has been started not being worked on. If you chase a survivor off a gen you don't need to kick it to start regressing it and tapping won't help with that.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971113#Comment_971113
I disagree, otherwise I would not be seeing rank 1 survivors who are so bad in a chase.
Most red rank killers just play easy mode killers like huntress, billy, spirit, hag, freddy, plague, etc. It is not very often you run into a mindgaming M1 killer who is really good.
Someone like freddy is literally the hold W killer. Spam M2 and hold W, and can rock spirit fury for even more free hits. I've seen plenty of rank 1-2 Freddie's who don't mindgame, ever.
But then if most are not good then why so many complaints? That itself tells more of a story and you then have to wonder what the complaints actually mean when they complain every game is a swf hit squad when rank 1 is full of bad survivors.
There are plenty who can do extremely well with low teired killers. Maybe its not the killer but the time they took to learn them. Survivor after all are just skins where as each killer needs to be learnt to be effective with them.
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@Danky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971235#Comment_971235
if this is a asymmetrical multiplayer horror game that means that its a 4(survivors) v 1 (killer) right????? and that the 1(killer) should be stronger then 1 of the 4 (survivors), soooo why is it that the survivor is stronger then the killer?? when u take all the killers DBD has why is it that theres only really 2 thats stronger then 1 single survivor???
its not that "they run out of actual counters" its survivor mains dont get that part.
LASTLY even the devs came out and said that its not fun for survivors to play against, thats why they nering killers, or their perks or their basekits
again all facts
If you look at what the definition of assymetrical actually is it does not mean the killer will be all powerful it merely means 1 v many. The problem is what some wish it to be over what the devs wish.
Now when it comes to a 1v many generally the many do have the upper hand its when they start to be removed does the tide change.
They nerfed Insta heals because they were not fun for killers. Changing something because its not fun happens and it goes both ways.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970756#Comment_970756
Average game maybe, but not average amount of times to complete generators.
I've had some games where generators were done in 4~5 minutes (both as survivor and killer), and the game continued into the 10+ minute mark because we just kept hook trading.
Small distinction, but a very important one I feel.
Always and these game happen and why it's never over until the match ends.
The same happens on the flip side though and some games end in 3mins for a killer
One distinction though is with these arguments the survivors were being potatoes while the other always seems to be the killer played the best they possibly could.
I am all for changes and i think its a bit unbalanced in certain situations but we have to be reasonable at the same time.
@Th3Nightmare said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970823#Comment_970823
Do not make me laugh, exert pressure with the Trapper, GF, Plague, clown etc. .. please I have been playing since 2016 and I have more than 3100 hours.
Otz shows it differently and what a good player can do with any killer.
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@Danky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971120#Comment_971120
i seen this game since beta, facts are facts. clearly u havent played much
It's always the same age old argument when one doesn't agree and they run out of actual counters.
I've played since beta also. There was a list of all the changes but people then argued over which ones were worst for the side they played.
@goat10em said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971076#Comment_971076
The fact remains though good survivor is better than good killer. The game is set up for potatoes to succeed. So really good survivors are almost untouchables now even against really good killers. I'm rank 1 killer and survivor. Survivor is the only time I feel in control.
That is again subjective as when some can win 50 games as killer perkless or with low tiered killers it always an argument they faced all potatoes but in the same breath some players who argue this always seem to meet the best in their own games.
Now if a good survior escapes 50 games in a row it of course shows a major balance issue and not one which means rhe6 versed potatoes.
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@Danky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970909#Comment_970909
killers have been nerfd more, nice try tho
As I said one will only see that which they want too.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970954#Comment_970954
Every survivor at red ranks is going to be rushing the gens, it's part of how they are getting there. If they are good in a chase or not is a different story. When I play survivor my goal is to always be on a gen unless I am being chased or saving someone. The chase is the only part of this game that takes any real skill.
Anyone can hold M1 and hit good skill checks, ruin is what stops people mindlessly doing gens and makes it require some sort of effort. You can get gen rushed by some rank 15's if you make the (poor) decision to chase their rank 1 friend too long.
The problem is, there is simply way too much to work with on a lot of the maps if you are good at looping and mindgames. But bad/new players will not use the pallets to their fullest extent, which is why so many need to exist.
The counterpoint is a map like Hawkins, where there is almost nothing to work with and it's basically a slaughtering ground for any competent killer. Those kinds of maps feel designed for rank 1 survivors, but end up being incredibly oppressive to newer players.
That's why you can have a rank 1 survivor who will camp shack pallet and just drop it on you while totally healthy, and a rank 1 survivor who will loop the shack for a minute, take a hit, loop it for another minute, and only drop the pallet at the very last second to avoid going down.
Rushing gens wont get you to rank 1. You need chases along with saves.
If survivors just do gens and get out then they back pip after a set point much like killers who camp.
Skill is in the chase for both sides but its not the only skill. Knowing when to evade, Leave a chase, Pressure a gen, Slug, Do gens, Take a hit, Mindgame plus many many more are all about knowledge and skill within play.
holding W or M1 will only get you so far.
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@goat10em said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970972#Comment_970972
I disagree. It all comes down to the skill of the survivors. Good survivors, who admittedly are a minority are almost untouchable. A team of good survivors is embarrassing. You can 4k with any killer and any perk against most survivors. The problem is, they are all rank 1. It is so easy to pip as survivor that all red ranks are muddied with potatoes and God's. The game keeps catering to the taters giving the actual good survivors more power and crippling killers
Yes but potatoes are on both sides. If you see good survivors versing a good killer they will lose some and win some. This is the essence of balance. You cant win them all and you should never expect too.
Some you will win easily and some you will win badly. It happens the issue is people only remember the bad loses for the most part.
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@dont_ask_me_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970756#Comment_970756
That’s kinda the 1v2 that creates those game lengths... but when there’s 4/3 survivors games go pretty damn fast and killers in red ranks are really gonna resort to knowledge of the game to get the 1v2 but survivors will adapt to those and I can imagine killer starting to get frustrating when survivors really click on to the cheeky strats.
Thats why we have to work at whittling them down as quick as possible, DBD is afterall a fast paced game and the more you down and hook the more pressure you put out and make them feel less safe.
I think each side does well to find strats and in turn to find counters. This casues a bit of a problem though as then some complain its not fair when it doesnt work.
@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970954#Comment_970954
I laugh at unpredictability. The game is about running in circles around the same objects and doing the same gens over and over and over
The game has always been about that. To change that its then a different game. The unpredictability is to do with mindgames from either side.
@leno said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970954#Comment_970954
Yeah you're talking about potatoes, they come in many shapes and forms.
Potatoes are on both sides. Good players tend not to rely on anything and Its their knowledge and skill which gains them wins.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970808#Comment_970808
Even that little time in the early match makes a huge difference. There are too many loops with too many pallets early in the game to be able to apply pressure correctly with all but maybe 3 killers.
That all depends on the player in reality. If one player can do it you have to ask why others cant? it all comes down to personal skill.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970756#Comment_970756
Keep in mind it is very easy for survivors to get into red ranks currently. You will have 200 hour survivors mixed in with 5000+ hour survivors and both are weighed equally according to the game.
There is a massive, massive difference between going up against your average red rank survivor and someone who has literally every loop in the game memorized.
The game is totally different when you are fighting for literally every M1 hit. As opposed to what I typically see when I play killer, which is potato red ranks survivors who go down easy. There's still rank 1's who will camp shack pallet and stun me with it in the first minute of the game.
That's why I don't think those stats are meaningful.
If that is truly the case then why do so manycomplain about red ranks while stating every game goes so fast? surely they would have more slower games than fast ones? the truth is ranks are about time played nothing more and most only remember when they lose a game badly.
@leno said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970823#Comment_970823
C'mon. It's not about giving up. When you play a lot killer and survivor you just recognize the patterns of how the game goes very early and you just know what kind of survivors you're dealing with. The only change late game normally is that when good survivors try to be too altruistic they can shoot themselves in the leg.
There just so big skill difference sometimes at red ranks you wouldn't believe.
I've saw matches where people throw themselves at the hook, others where 2 are left and manage to do 3 gens. Its never over till the fat lady signs. Even once the gens are done its never a good idea to give up as a kill can be just a few steps away.
Patterns change constantly and why the nature of a PvP game is different. The unpredictability is what makes them fresh even with such simple concepts.
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@Danky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970808#Comment_970808
i would hope they nerf'd MoM and insta-heals as they took killers Mori's, OG Nurse, Trappers under hook traps, Iron Grasp, ect.
Everything is done to both sides, Its not about one side or the other.
Exhaustion was added and then changed, DS was changed multiple times, Pallet spawns, Maps windows blocked etc.
We can go on but both sides have had a lot of changes over time and it will keep happening. People will only generally see what affects the side they play though and ignore the others or call them "needed" changes.
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@leno said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970756#Comment_970756
oh my 😂 survivors don't lenghten the game on purpose like.. never 🤣
you can tell after 2-3 minutes if you have any change to win or not, the rest is just a theater.
Whoever said they did? its good killers that put out pressure that prolong a game.
The game is never over until death or escape. Giving up before that point is one the player.
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It has nothing to do with bias.
Ruin was only good at low ranks. Higher ranks its effects were nothing to good players as they powered through the skill checks. Its why killers tend to use PGTW instead now. This change doesnt look good imo but I dont see any bias by changing soemthing which has no effect.
The changes for insta heals and MoM were all about the effects they had on killer gameplay and not once did I see a post stating the devs were killer biased when those changes were made.