thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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I tend to measure how much I need to go for a target based on the progress of the game. If my Ruin is up and I already have 3 or 4 tokens of Remember Me I will gladly walk away from the hook knowing the guy will be saved right away because I'm still going to win. I'll just use BBQ and go after this guy on a gen (since that would be at least 3 not on gens), chase and hook him, rinse repeat. If you just present yourself to me and you are on death hook, depending on how things have been going I might just slug you and let you go one more time. Again it's one less person on a gen and someone has to come save him. As long as I keeps tabs on where he is when he gets up I know there is another one nearby so I just think to myself FRESH MEAT.
The only time over-altruism is a problem is after gates are opened because it's so hard to stop. Blood Warden is really the only thing that will stop it. NOED does the opposite, because once you hit and hook someone with NOED proc'ed absolutely no survivors will come anywhere near the hook until you leave or the totem is destroyed. Some will flat out leave, likely because they know they pipped anyway so why risk dying? I will say that I think survivors with the BT effect on them shouldn't be allowed to escape out the exit gate. It should block them AT THE FRONT similar to Blood Warden blocking at the back. Reason is if it's at the back they can just sit there and let you hit them down and they get away anyway. With this, once they fall they can crawl to the back of the exit but if you were chasing them it gives you a chance to pick them up. Should be allowed to go through hatch though, only because in order for that to happen you have to be saved and the rest have to leave. Other than that, I accept that over-altruism at the end of the game is usually just a result of me playing poorly. If even 1 guy is dead then the hooked guy's chance of being saved by overly altruistic survs drops dramatically. If 2 are dead then it's not even an issue.
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Also you should not be chasing in crouch as Pig. Crouch is to ambush them for the first hit. When you chase them you should be standing like a normal killer. Only time you crouch in a chase is if they try to loop you at a pallet you can sometimes mindgame them which way you will ambush around the loop. Look up Tru3Tal3nt he is probably the biggest DBD streamer that plays killer and he does that trick a lot with Pig. It's not very effective, though at ranks you might be at it probably is.
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IMO a better option would be that destroying a Hex totem puts some kind of "curse" on the survivor that destroys it. Nothing major, but like for Ruin maybe it removes their ability to perform great skill checks when repairing. Then there is some cost to just charging at a totem early on, especially if it has a stronger curse with it. Like, say destroying Devour Hope put you into the Exposed state for 60 seconds. I wouldn't go breaking that totem if I spawned by it just because I would want to find out what it is first, or at the very least way until the killer is busy so I can destroy it then hide for that time.
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Bloodhound + Sloppy Butcher
You shouldn't lose them in a chase anymore.
Best ways to find survivors as killer without perks are to follow blood, pay attention to the crows (if they fly away then someone just scared them off go check it out, if they are landing someone was just there), and check objectives (gens specifically, but if you see a chest or totem take note of the position so that when you come back if it's open/destroyed you know someone was in the area).
Also if you are playing Pig and have a very hard time finding survivors you could use Amanda's Letter add-on which allows her to see survivor auras within 12m when crouched, though it comes at the cost of only getting 1 trap and with 2 boxes meaning your traps will be way less effective, but your crouch will be way more effective. Pair it with Last Will for an extra trap, and I would recommend only using a trap on the obsession otherwise save it for later in the game so you can slow down the game even just a tad when you need to.
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What add-ons? Stacked blocks I assume.
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@Zarathos said:
Monto uses it in a lot of builds and that man is a legendary player. Noed function is too give the killers lacking in instadowns an opportunity at exit gates to thrive or secure the kill. Much like dying light tunneling the obsession will make you a predictable killer. You could let them go and chase someone else but if the survivor copes on to what's happening they will stick to safe gens and powerful loops like the tree area or ironworks building.I see your point that power wise the speed boost and instadown ease of use is making some killers to reliant on it. But its existence is brought on by many killers having zero late game options available aside from extremely conditional perks. Blood warden requires exit gates be open. Remember me is depending on you killing a specific player.
Monto also has a habit of killing everyone and NOED never procs. Hell, almost every game where he does a NOED build and it procs HE LET THEM just to proc NOED. I respect Monto, and he is using NOED as part of particularly specific builds for entertainment purposes. But it doesn't change the fact that NOED is a crutch for most players. Even True has admitted NOED is a killer crutch perk. If NOED was somehow a perk that you built up over the early parts of the game it would be fair because at least there is some skill in it. It's not just given to you for failing (purposely or not). That's why I love Remember Me. It's a very underrated killer perk that can reward you greatly for going after an obsession AND it has more value in end game potential than NOED since it extends the game as opposed to just giving the killer some ability that turns survivors immersed. I run Ruin and Remember Me on my killers, with the goal to at least find my obsession once before my totem goes down, and it generally works extremely well. As long as I got at least 3 tokens before Ruin goes down and no gens are done, then it's pretty much GG for the survivors. It really is the best perk to counter DS because if you get hit with DS that's just another token you get. The reason no one uses Remember Me though is because it takes some actual skill to make use of it, where NOED takes 0 skill to make use of it. Arguably even "negative" skill in that it is exclusively a comeback mechanic. Hence why I refer to it as a crutch perk.
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@Dolvling said:
Sign Language- nothing to change, seems pretty good and is just a fun novelty perk
Houdini- replace the inability to kobe off hook with just a cooldown, considering some of your perks give me a magician survivor feel, the inability to kobe off would clash
Hemophiliac- not a big fan purely because it wouldn't be practical to run, covering a killer's screen a bit more in exchange for hemorrhage seems impractical
Spiteful- also not a big fan of this one because it punishes killers who have to defend from overly altruistic survivorsThanks for the feedback.
Regarding Houdini, giving it a cooldown so that you could do it multiple times in a game would be way too strong IMO. It's meant as a 1 time escape from a chase, with odds that it could also backfire if you use it improperly. The inability to struggle on first hook is the trade off for using the perk since using it even once would be very strong. Though I'm open to other ideas for "downsides" besides just that, but a cooldown I don't think is a good alternative.
Hemophiliac is also a risk/reward type of thing. A good killer will be able to track your blood to offset the fact they lost you on the hit, but if you use the time properly you could escape I'm quite sure. Maybe the Hemorrhage time is too long, that's possible, but as with any sort of thing in a video game testing is required to nail down those numbers. It could very well turn out I was even too low and they need to be increased to make it viable. I only put numbers for completion sake, don't think of them as set in stone just placeholders until they get play tested.
I can totally understand your point about Spiteful. I was thinking maybe it could be an obsession perk too, just so that everyone in the game isn't running it. Maybe it also would only apply to the first hook so then, as killer, if you can get someone to second hook then you don't need to worry about spiteful. The idea with the perk is to counter the EXTREME camping some killers do, and punish it as it should be punished. If you are a killer that leaves the hook, 10m is such a small distance that you shouldn't honestly have to worry about it. Only those killers that will sit really close to a hook to grab someone or hit the guy as he is unhooked risk getting hit with Spiteful. You could also impose other limitations, maybe it can't work after the gates are open or something because in those cases killers are almost forced to camp. Again all this needs play testing, so for now just focus on the idea that "Spiteful punished hardcore campers by giving survivors a chance to get off the hook and act". It doesn't actually stop them from coming after you as much as it just gives you a shot of getting off the hook when it would otherwise be impossible.
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While the hill is generally a bad spot for totems because it's so visible, that can also sometimes work out for you as killer depending on which side the hill entrance is and where on the map the hill is. It might turn out every survivor sees it in the first 30 seconds but because of the location it will be very hard to get to without you seeing it and coming after them.
That said totems need do better placements. If it spawns by the hill it should be near the big rock at the entrance so it's less visible.
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NEVER look back as survivor.
NEVER look down as killer.
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Now with marshmallows!
Follow your nose, wherever the survivor goes!
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@Master said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@Master said:
Just use some overlay software1) I'm on Xbox.
2) That's cheating.
3) I tried using the cheapo stickers but the trajectory is so wonky they are worthless.I mean, if a Doc and a Nurse can get an add-on specifically designed to help newer players learn the power, why not Huntress, the one killer that would actually need a crosshair?
1) that sucks for you
2) thats not cheating
3) the actual crosshair needs to be placed shortly below the middle of the screen and yeah you have to calculate in the trajectory too1) I like my Xbox
2) It is on Xbox, which is part of the reason I like it.
3) I ate all the stickers. -
Gears of War, since 2006. I love Gears 4, and comp 2.8 beta is literally 99.99999% perfect Gears experience now (slightly buff Lancer to make it reward skillful headshots more and it would be 100). But alas after over 10,000 hours in the series I am finding myself bored with it.
I think the concept of DBD is just very interesting, and the mechanics have a lot of appeal. Though the devs need to take a seriously look at some majors flaws in the design and actually fix them instead of worrying about the small details.
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@Master said:
Just use some overlay software1) I'm on Xbox.
2) That's cheating.
3) I tried using the cheapo stickers but the trajectory is so wonky they are worthless.I mean, if a Doc and a Nurse can get an add-on specifically designed to help newer players learn the power, why not Huntress, the one killer that would actually need a crosshair?
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@Master said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@Master said:
DS is the "most serious crutch perk" if you wanna call it this way
I never said DS isn't a crutch. Only that NOED is also a crutch. If you need NOED as a killer I'm sorry but you are probably just a bad killer. I've rarely met a really good killer that was using NOED. Why? Because they don't need it.
Is there somethign wrong about being a bad killer?
I deranked to rank 13 now but I still face red rank survivors that loop me into oblivion. I seriously start wondering whether I should use nOED now because there are matches where I cant get a single kill ( I refuse to stand infront of a hook the whole game)Nothing wrong with being a bad killer but, just as a bad survivor doesn't deserve an escape just because DS, you don't deserve a kill just because NOED. You also won't kill every one every game. Some games everyone will get out, it happens. If it happens a lot then just re-evaluate what you are doing as killer. Good killers can more consistently at least 2k in those games where most others wouldn't kill anyone.
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As a survivor I honestly can't tell because all I hear is my own screaming at my television.
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BBQ is almost moot with Class Photo. Class Photo can also bite you in the ass because of that 9 second transition. If someone gets on your totem just 5 seconds early then your totem is gone. Once Ruin is gone it will be VERY VERY hard to keep them from doing gens and gates. You want perks that slow the game as much as possible. Take Remember Me instead of BBQ, and use something like Pop Goes the Weasel or TOTH for the last one. I'd also ditch M&A for Thanatophobia or Dying Light or something else to slow the game.
This is a B tier build at best from my experience. Class Photo is powerful but only when you slow down the game or use a Z block to offset it. Otherwise it can cost you. 9 seconds is almost half an exit gate, meaning if they do anything more than half of the gate before you sleep them it will be open and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
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@Master said:
DS is the "most serious crutch perk" if you wanna call it this wayI never said DS isn't a crutch. Only that NOED is also a crutch. If you need NOED as a killer I'm sorry but you are probably just a bad killer. I've rarely met a really good killer that was using NOED. Why? Because they don't need it.
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Xbox player IDK what PTB is like but I'm just going by what I know here. New Sloppy Butcher inflicts Mangled. Mangled increases your healing time. Coulrophobia also increases healing time, and Distressing increases your TR to make CP more effective.
You'd have to crunch the numbers, but if you manage to injured people you very well could keep them from healing for quite some time.
Better than Ruin though? Well just from looking at it probably not, purely because you have 3 perks to do a specific thing that may only be slightly better than Ruin. It would need to be significantly better to be of actual value, since you are probably better off using Ruin since you can use any 3 other perks you want.
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@Sabor44 said:
Can anyone confirm this in game yet that her base hatchet wind up time has not been buffed? As a Huntress main I think the machine gun hatchet build was overpowered. However I think it is a bit much that I have to take two add-ons to get the speed reduction of one from the previous patch.Huntress main, I agree 1000%. Decrease her base wind up time, adjust the add-ons to result in the same wind up time as is currently, remove Tinkerer buff for the add-ons because it's quite OP. I use fast hatchets most of the time, but with Tinkerer it's flat out broken OP nonsense. I don't use Tinkerer, especially now that I know Tinkerer is changing, so it's better to get used to playing without it. And if her base wind up was faster then a lot of her status effect add-ons would be a lot more useful. Hell I might even forgo add-ons and just do what Nurse's do sometimes. That should honestly be an option for every killer. Add-ons shouldn't be a requirement to use their power effectively, it should just give you new options when using the power instead.
I also think they should take a look at some of the other add-ons, like the purple concoction or the one that let's you see lockers. IMO both of these are worthless and should be changed somehow to give more value. Maybe if by throwing a hatchet NEAR someone it revealed an aura. That would be really nice. Also there should be an add-on that gives you a crosshair. Nurse has one, Doc has one. I don't get why the only character with an ACTUAL projectile doesn't.
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If I could say one thing about Devotion and Shards it's that I would like to earn shards like I did before on top of the Devotion rewards, only because the higher your Devotion the longer the interval of shard payouts. If we could earn them as before too, then it wouldn't be so bad. Yea it would take 100 games to get 1000 shards, but it's better than 0 extra shards after 100 games, especially if you are such a high Devotion that you only leveled up a handful of times in 100 games.
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The problem with rank rewards is that 1) ranks reset once a month which is way too often IMO, and 2) rank is not an actual reflection of skill more a reflection of time commitment. You don't have to be the BEST player to reach rank 1 on either side, just good enough to pip more often than you depip. Also it depends on the groups you play with. Me and my buddy are rank 1 survivors, but this month he hasn't played nearly as much as me bc of his kid. So I'm rank 1 while he is rank 8 or so right now. He is still technically a rank 1 level player, but he is at rank 8 because he just doesn't play much lately. Then we got like 4 other people we have been playing with 2 of which are brand spanking new players. When we start a lobby it's rank 1, rank 8, rank 3, and rank 20. Maybe 2 rank 20's. We end up getting rank 15 killers that only have a chance of getting kills if they catch the rank 20 guys first. If they find me or my buddy they will be chasing us all game. It's quite unfair, I will usually go out of my way to play fair, not rushing gens or using cheesey add-ons like BNP, just so the killer doesn't rage quit (though I'm sure when they look at the scoreboard at the end of the game they think to themselves "RANK 1! No wonder I couldn't catch that guy" or if they did catch me "RANK 1! And I caught him!" so maybe they feel a little good about that even if they lost I hope).
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More proof that Doc 3 gen is broken garbage that needs a nerf. You are admitting you hold games hostage until survivors just give up and let you kill them. That shouldn't be a thing anymore than having a super immersed survivor when hatch is open that absolutely refuses to show themselves. If a certain strat has potential to make a game last indefinitely then it needs to be fixed.
Also Nurse, Billy, and Huntress are entirely viable at high ranks. They take a lot of skill though, which judging by the fact you hold games hostage with Doc 3 gen suggests to me that you aren't to that level of killer. Yet you still are high rank. That says something too about the strat.
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@Master said:
The only difference is that noed can be counteredUh, DS can totally be countered too. Enduring + Unnerving + Remember Me will seriously punish the DS user. But just because it CAN be countered doesn't mean it's not a serious crutch perk that helps bad players, nor does it mean that the expected counter is reasonable.
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@azazer said:
Ok something isn't adding up. If you walk up to the killer, and he doesn't hit you, then do gens in front of him. He will be forced to let you, hit you or grab you. Either way it's game over. If he lets you do gen, you win, game over. if he hits you, you're downed and bleeding game over. If he grabs you or picks you up don't struggle and he's forced to hook you or drop you to bleed out, game over. I don't see how you are stuck unless you are being disingenuous about your attempt to just let the killer hook you.No I'm not. If I do the gen I just get shocked and put into Madness 3, which I then have to go an snap out of it far away because he will keep shocking me plus the TR. I can't do the gens, and he won't commit to grabbing me because if he does and carries me to a hook other survivors get to do gens.
Too many Docs do 3 gen and literally lock the game in place for 20+ minutes for no other reason than to troll or because they are too inept to perform the strat correctly. I've faced Docs that will make it super hard to do the last 3 gens but will still kill people. These players are fine, it's the ones that abuse the strat that are the problem.
Not to mention why should I just let the killer hook me in the first place? He won't chase me at all, won't leave the gens for more than 10 seconds. I'm literally stuck and my only option is to... forfeit? Yea that should tell you something about how broken the strategy is. If you can hold a game hostage, regardless if some people don't, it's broken and needs to be nerfed. It's the same reason BHVR is looking into hatch endgame because too many survivors play super immersed and just hide somewhere on the map making it IMPOSSIBLE to find them and holding the game hostage. Sure they could just run to the hatch and/or reveal themselves if they wanted to, but they don't have to and that's the same problem with Doc 3 gen. He doesn't HAVE TO kill us. He can just keep circling jerking the gens indefinitely and there is nothing survivors can do to stop it. You choice is to willingly lose on purpose, by your logic, which just proves how broken it is.
@Master said:
Same applies to the survivors, you have to act like their dad and follow them to the exit gates because alone they are scared to leave I guessThe difference is that you can chase them out and force the game to end. They can't sit there at the gate indefinitely because you can just hit them. Also, I will sit by the exit and wait for 2 reason 1) in case someone is in trouble and needs me to body block for them or rescue from a hook or something (mainly for BP/emblems), or 2) to make the killer waste time. If I'm sitting there right at the exit gate and force the killer to chase me out I am wasting their time that they could be using to find other survivors or go to the other door. Plus doing that gives me Evader points for escaping a chase which can bump up the emblem to the next tier.
Like I said above, BHVR are working on hatch endgame because survivors HAVE THE OPTION to hold the game hostage. The option itself is where the problem lies, because if the option didn't exist, guess what? They wouldn't be able to hold the game hostage. Doc 3 gen is the same thing. Doc HAS THE OPTION to hold the game hostage. Whether he chooses to or not is irrelevant, what matters is he can do it if he wants.
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@Darckshado9 said:
There is a difference between reading and game knowledge. most of your comment is about reading in a chase, which is completely different, as i was focused on stealth. and there are restrictions to where you can hide, like where you were when they were downed, what direction they went, Land barriers. A good killer is one that knows that 2 or 3 gens are in a given direction and without seeing anyone on BBQ can take a pretty good guess that they are in that location. Also, the wooden boards with literal open holes doesn't help eitherNo you can read a killer when not in a chase. If he doesn't see you on BBQ but expects to see you by the nearest gen, guess where he will check and where you should not be. Have you ever tried that? A good killer will find you if you are around where they expect you to be. They can't find you if you aren't where they expect you to be. Whether that's in a chase or not. For example, I frequently work on random gens for like 2 seconds just to start them then just flat out leave. Why? Because when the killer comes up they will think someone is there and waste time. But I'm not there. If I was there I would be walking away.
You make it sound like the killer just knows where you are all the time. They don't. Good killers guess where you are, and if you are always thinking "be by a pallet, or window, or gen" then it's pretty obvious why they find you. Unless it's a Scratched Mirror Myers they shouldn't just see you all the time.
You're basically complaining that someone found you hiding under the bed in hide and seek. It's so obvious where you are.
@Darckshado9 said:
While I admit, that the pig is one where spine chill would be useful that i overlooked, Freddy can be coming from any direction, so knowing he is looking for you only makes you aware your about to be put to sleep, which the nodding head and song do already,That's why you keep tabs on what the killer is doing. When did you see them last and where were they? What direction did they go? Did someone just get hooked or injured, well they are probably coming from that direction. That part is easy even against Freddy. SC let's you know that they are looking at you and likely coming towards you so you know to get out sooner rather than later. Again just walk away to somewhere else. So what if the gen was almost done, it's FUBAR now that the killer is there. Watch from a distance if you really want it, but if you hide anywhere in the area a good killer will find you. If you think crouching in a bush near the killer is stealth then you are doing it wrong.
I really don't know what else to tell you. Stealth is 100% viable in this game. You guys that disagree have been shooting down literally every piece of advice I have given you about how to beat detection perks and stay stealthy, to the point that I question how much killer you have played. If you do play killer you would understand how their perspective of the world is and what advantages that gives you since you have a third person camera.
EDIT: "NC will most likely trigger before SC and your reaction to stop healing" No it doesn't. NC tier 3 is 28m. SC tier 3 is 32m. You have almost a second to react and even if you don't, the killer saw you for a fraction of a second and you are 28m, or 7 seconds walking time from them which is plenty of time to move away. Not to mention you could always just play super safe and go really far away to heal if you don't want to be seen by NC. These perks are really easy to counter.
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@The_Manlet said:
@thesuicidefox said:
Survivor main. Ruin is fine honestly. Either bring a toolbox, use certain perks to do skill checks/find totems, or just get good at great skill checks. Most games Ruin is gone after the first chase, it's mostly there to give the killer a chance to start up pressure on the survivors. Others I just plow through and get my 2 gens so I can hatch at least.NOED though is IMO a clutch perk. So many bad killers use it and end up getting way more kills than they rightfully deserve. And I mean just really bad killers, ones that can't catch you even when you don't loop or never kick gens or break pallets. Those killers always have a NOED and it always makes up for their lack of skill. I get games can go fast and it can be used as an ace in the hole, but good killers make better with other perks so the only ones that use it are the bad killers. If you want something for endgame that's not a crutch pick Remember Me. It's way more effective and actually takes some skill in that you have to find and hunt down your obsession. It also rewards you greatly for going after the DS guy, so now there's value in chasing them and not leaving them until the end of the game because DS.
And to be clear, DS and NOED are both equally crutchy perks for either side. Both give you a freebie for basically being bad at the game.
Survivors have tons of crutch perks outside of Decisive Strike. Self-Care and Sprint Burst both completely change the way the game is played and Adrenaline is the survivor equivalent of NOED.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But even as a killer you have to admit NOED is a crutch. Probably the only crutch killer perk, but still a crutch.
Sprint Burst is only a crutch when it triggers multiple times in a chase. I've managed to escape a lot of chases just by the luck it triggered at the right time, it was definitely helping me when I should have been dead. The exhaustion update should fix that, though I do think Vigil should allow you to recover from Exhaustion while running if at least at a reduced amount.
Self Care is almost a necessary perk, to the point it almost should be a based survivor ability. The only time it becomes a crutch is when you pair it with other crutch perks like DS or BT (which IMO isn't really a crutch on it's own but it is when combined with SC). The SC change sounds so convoluted, like all the solutions we have gotten so far. I don't get why Self Care can only have a limited number of uses unless you have a medkit in your hand in which case it would be infinite (SC use is infinite not the medkit).
Only thing I would change about Adrenaline is that it only triggers during the period when the gates are powered. If you are hooked then getting unhooked shouldn't proc Adrenaline after the fact.
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@RagingCalm said:
Doctor isn't irritating, Doctor players are irritating. They play Doctor because he best enables the camping, tunneling and 3-gen strat they rely on. He also gives the most bloodpoints.
When I play Doctor, I play him just like I play all my other Killers. I usually don't camp or tunnel unless the survivor is begging for it via a lap dance(T Bagging). I will admit that I 3-gen strat at times, but only if I have to in order to win.But when you 3 gen you still will take chases if you can get the kill right? Most Doc's do not do this. They just keep the game in a stalemate indefinitely.
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@azazer said:
thesuicidefox said:the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
I see a pattern that the killer needs to let you do gens. It's the docs fault for dragging on the game for guarding the objective. The doc needs to commit to a chase. Why is it that it's the doc's job to lose?
Counter offer, if you want the game to end walk up to him and let him hook you. Try and Kobe, then let the entity take you back to the campfire.I do actually sometimes, and he doesn't take it. These players insist on dragging out the game. Keeping me from doing gens is fine if you kill people in the process. But if you are just not letting me do gens AND not killing anyone we are stuck in a stalemate.
This also ignores the fact that Doc isn't going to lose. If he's been doing it for more than 10 minutes that Iridescent Gatekeeper. If he got a few hooks and chases before it got to 3 gens, or even a single kill, he pips. HE ALREADY HAS WON! Yet we are still playing because...? I can't answer that.
Like really tell me what I'm supposed to do because I can't do gens and he won't kill me, despite everyone in the game probably getting a pip. What are my other options?
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I've played quite a few more Docs since posting this and it seems like, no, he is not faster.
However upon some total recall, I now remember that both the games where he felt faster to me, and the game where the Doc had asked if he was faster, were on Mother's Dwelling. I will make efforts to test this, but if anyone else can confirm or deny that'd be super.
Xbox, Doc, Mother's Dwelling.
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Eh, only ones I DO NOT like to play against are Doc, Myers, and LF. The rest I don't care much as long as they don't run NOED or Franklin's.
Also I feel like I would like playing against Clown, but right now every Clown feels like a LF that just got the new DLC.
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@Abyssionknight Yes annoying is the word that describes him. Doc is definitely geared towards the lesser skilled killers. But I think that you can outplay even a good Doc with all the crazy stuff he can do. It's really hard but it shows your bones as a survivor if you can do it. On some level it's a nice challenge, on other's it's annoying. Again to each his own, but the real problem comes when players abuse the Doc's abilities just to explicitly annoy people. THEN it gets annoying to almost everyone as far as I have seen.
I feel like good Doc's also don't do 3 gen. They use Ruin, BBQ, NC, and Distressing mostly, sometimes Unnerving in place of NC or something, but they commit to chases and kill people while make things a lot more difficult. Still can be annoying, but not absolutely gamebreaking like 3 gen.
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@Orion said:
Why should you nerf the result of the Survivors' mistake? If the Killer is holding the game hostage, that's a reason for reporting them. If the Killer is taking advantage of the Survivors' lack of map awareness, that's a reason for the Survivors to play better. Neither is a reason to nerf capitalizing on a mistake.It's not the survivor mistakes, it's the fact that the build is designed to stalemate the game. If the survivor makes mistakes, then the killer should be killing people. That's not what happens here. Survivors make a mistake than get stuck in a 30 minute game because the killer doesn't play to win, merely play to not lose.
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@Techn0 said:
Nerf three gen, encourage commitment to chases. Three gen is a meme build that my ex-doc main self looks down upon heavily, It is not meant to be a serious build and a lot of people see it and decide "Well this youtuber says it's the best". If the devs were to for example make shakey skill checks an add on again and in turn making something like illusion pallets in t2/3 baseline Doc players will be encouraged to pursue a more engaging play style (it does sound op, none of his other add-ons would do the job though, he probably just needs a different mechanic or a base shock increase)I'm all for giving Doc's more reason to commit. Maybe we get lucky and Monto mixes in Pop Goes the Weasel on his next Doc 3 gen video so that he can show you go after people so you can kick gens and it's just as effective without stalemating the game (because you are committing to chases/hooks)
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ME: gg
Claudette (my obs with Remember Me): nah my team was bad
ME: Really? Then why after I caught you twice and left you to get away both times did you, both times, go right to my totem when you knew I knew that you knew where it was AND you were the obsession with no DS/surv obs perks?
Claudette: LOL i din't know where it was (when I caught her obviously walking away from it both times)
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Survivor main. Ruin is fine honestly. Either bring a toolbox, use certain perks to do skill checks/find totems, or just get good at great skill checks. Most games Ruin is gone after the first chase, it's mostly there to give the killer a chance to start up pressure on the survivors. Others I just plow through and get my 2 gens so I can hatch at least.
NOED though is IMO a clutch perk. So many bad killers use it and end up getting way more kills than they rightfully deserve. And I mean just really bad killers, ones that can't catch you even when you don't loop or never kick gens or break pallets. Those killers always have a NOED and it always makes up for their lack of skill. I get games can go fast and it can be used as an ace in the hole, but good killers make better with other perks so the only ones that use it are the bad killers. If you want something for endgame that's not a crutch pick Remember Me. It's way more effective and actually takes some skill in that you have to find and hunt down your obsession. It also rewards you greatly for going after the DS guy, so now there's value in chasing them and not leaving them until the end of the game because DS.
And to be clear, DS and NOED are both equally crutchy perks for either side. Both give you a freebie for basically being bad at the game.
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It should be set to a time but just skip to 4:18 if it's not.
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@Orion said:
I'll find some way to test that...Yes, Killers holding the game hostage in that manner is a dick move, and they should be reported for it. However, the situation arose because the Survivors didn't think ahead. The 3-gen strategy doesn't need nerfing; people who hold the game hostage just need to be reported and banned.
No need just use YT >
https://youtu.be/72rsQedgx90?t=4m18sSee the icon on the right, that's his madness. The 2 V's mean he is in madness 2. Notice how it never drops to madness 1. NEVER. It just sits at Madness 2 0% until he gets in TR or shocked and it goes up.
Also it definitely does need changes because by virtue of the strategy itself it is a stalemate situation, which is holding the game hostage. That's why Doc's don't commit because by committing to something they reduce the chance the stalemate will continue.
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No you lose madness based on the progress. So if you were 90% to Madness 2 then it can drain back to 0 if you don't stay in his TR or get shocked. But once you get into Madness 2 it doesn't go away. Likewise, you can be 90% to Madness 3 and then hide and it drains, but it never goes below 2 once you get there. Wiki does make it sound like you can drop from Madness 2, but trust me you can't. You can only drop from Madness 1 99% to Madness 1 0%, Madness 2 99% to Madness 2 0%, or Madness 3 to Madness 2 0% by 'snap out of it'. Those survivors were Madness 2 because you can't get out of it, I'm telling you. Go try it and you will see. You probably didn't see hallucinations because 1) they were never in Madness 2 to begin with, 2) they weren't close to you despite what you thought, or 3) you were looking in another direction when the hallucination popped up. You have to think that because of your perspective you see may not see a hallucination nearby if you didn't look in that direction before it vanished.
Also you still don't understand. Survivors should do the 3 closest gens to avoid this, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the killer never actually tries to kill anyone. I get you don't want me to do the gens, but if you aren't going to try to kill someone in that time what are you doing except just holding the game hostage? That's why I explicitly use the phrase "over commit" because they aren't actually working to end the game, whether that means they kill everyone or they let them do the gens. Survivors made the mistake, now the killer has to capitalize. If they don't then they are just wasting everyone's time.
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@BadMrFrosty said:
Doctor is in this weird position where he's fun to play, but an absolute nightmare to play against. Not because he's overpowered or even viable, but just because he makes you manage a ton more than you're used to. I get it, but I'm still gonna play him. Nothing personal. : PNo it's not that honestly. I don't mind the skill checks or crazy mindgames he can do, or the fact he can track you well or stop you from doing some stuff, or that his heartbeat can be confusing AF, or always hearing a heartbeat/seeing a red stain. It makes it a challenge and that's fun. What makes it a nightmare is what I said. The vaults, the over commitment to 3 gen strat, and the fact you can never break Madness 2. That's what makes him annoying to play against, and I can tell you as a survivor main if they fixed these 3 things survivors would complain about Doc far FAR less.
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@Orion said:
I'm fairly certain you can go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 without the "Snap out of it" interaction. I've never reached Madness 2 as a Survivor, but as Killer, I've had Survivors go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 when I go easy on them and stop using Treatment mode. And yes, I do play Survivor, on occasion, though I haven't played the game for some time due to real-life problems.If the strategy can be countered but isn't, then that's a player problem; not a game problem. No changes are necessary to a strategy that the other team refuses to counter. It'd be like if Killers started demanding a fix to Survivors healing in melee range because they refuse to hit them.
I'd argue that improving the netcode is better than removing this particular interaction.
No you can't. Once you are in Madness 2 you are there forever. I've read through the Doc's wiki, where are you even seeing that you can snap out of 2? I can assure you that those survivors were still in madness 2.
It's not the countering of the strategy, it's the fact that Doc's OVER COMMIT to the strategy. By that I mean that they never seek to actually end the game, just keep it locked indefinitely at 3 gens. It's borderline holding the game hostage. And your example is flawed, because survivors aren't refusing to do the gens. They are trying but they can't. It's physically impossible (or at the very least requires insane optimization even if the killer isn't that good), UNLESS the Doc commits to a chase. But they don't they just circle the last 3 gens, however far they may be, and just never let you do them nor try to kill you (something killers claim they want to do all the time). It's like that game where you have 1 super immersed survivor with the hatch open that refuses to even show themselves and instead just moves enough in some random part of the map you can never go that they don't get crows.
Improving netcode might work but I would honest rather vaulting ignore the Doc's shock attack. It seems like a much better solution that would be a lot easier to implement.
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To each his own, but it's pretty universal thing among survivors to hate playing against the Doc purely because it will be an annoying game. Like seeing 4 p3 players with flashlights and purple myst as killer, it just won't be fun and you know it.
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The only things that piss me off as a killer now are last second switchers, the fact that the game can potentially go extremely fast, and that some maps have loops that are just completely absurd. Also I think purple myst needs to go.
- Lock survivor builds after 40 seconds. Give killer 20 seconds to counter prep.
- Find some way to put a time minimum on the game of say 5 minutes, so that normal survivors aren't affected but super optimal survivors are forced to slow down so that you have time as killer to do things.
- Close a few key windows and move (not take out) some pallets and things would be all better.
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You can only drop from Madness 3 to Madness 2 though (no offense here, but do you play as survivor?). You can't ever drop out of Madness 2, and with add-ons (especially pallet/illusion ones) it makes it really easy to always find you. I think it should be that when you 'snap out' of Madness 3 it drops you to Madness 1. Then if you get to Madness 2 that's still strong for the Doc, but if you get to Madness 3 you have a chance to get rid of Madness 2 effects also, requiring the Doc to hit you more. Because another problem is that in Madness 3 you can't do anything, so if the Doc has madness increasing add-ons and just sits in treatment somewhere, you go from Madness 2 to 3 really fast, to the point you might not have any time at all to do something, making it impossible to go anywhere near the killer for any reasonable amount of time.
And yes I'm aware 3 gen can be countered but it still doesn't stop Docs from doing it. The gens don't necessarily need to be that close, just close enough that Doc can move between them in treatment to keep your madness up (again because you can't get out of 2, making 3 come a lot faster). Then they do this for 20 minutes, even hit people sometimes, but never commit to a chase. Even if the guy is on death hook for fear a survivor might do what, 25% of a gen before he comes back? I mean really Pop Goes The Weasel would be a lot more useful here and then you can actually wind down the game instead of just keeping it locked in an stalemate indefinitely.
EDIT: I also just want to make a distinction here because it came to mind. Vaulting should be allowed when getting shocked because it's buggy when you make it through the window and the teleport back. Pallets, however, do not work this way. There's never a case where you drop a pallet as you get shocked and the pallet isn't dropped. If the pallet is dropped, then it's dropped, so because it's not buggy I have absolutely no problem with the fact that shocking prevents me from dropping a pallet, simply because if I can predict the shock and drop the pallet anyway the game doesn't revert my action and undrop the pallet while simultaneously preventing me from dropping the pallet for another second (thus allowing the killer to both shock and hit me). But when it comes to a vault, Doc should have to choose to shock or hit, not both because the game bugs.
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Scary Terry from Rick and Morty.
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Not being able to get out of Madness 2 (which is actually very strong with almost any add-on).
The fact that every Doc runs a 3 gen strat and completely overcommits to it when everyone (including killer) has likely pipped and just wants the game to end.
Hopping through a window as I get shocked only to teleport back to the other side, not only giving him a free hit but also upping my madness. I get that I'm limited in my actions, but vaulting is seriously buggy and completely connection dependent in this particular situation. Yes it's intended to stop looping, but it feels broken AF when you lag all over the place because of the connection let alone the character's actual ability. It should be an exception.
Don't get me wrong, I've had fun games against the Doc, but there are specific things he does that just ruin the game entirely, especially the 3 gen strat. It's effective, and if you commit to a chase after a point it's not a big deal, the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
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I think that would depend on whether Slenderman falls under copyright or not. AFAIK he was a creation of creepypasta then became famous when those girls killed another girl and said he told them to do it. If it's like big foot or something I could see it happen, but if it's like Dracula then probably not.
Slenderman-like character though... I'd be willing to bet something like that is coming. How many other killer tropes can they do?
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My madness 🤪
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@Orion said:
Yes, it's the Survivors' mistake for going to where the Killer is and expecting to be able to walk all over them. I don't care how you justify it, if you go to where the Killer is, he's supposed to be able to stomp. That's an asymmetrical game - either the entire weak side gangs up on the strong side and there's a 50/50 chance they succeed at whatever they're doing, or they don't gang up and they lose.IT IS NOT A MISTAKE IF THEY ARE FORCED TO SAVE HIM.
Benevolence forces you to save people on first and second hooks, or else you depip. Killers exploit this. With the old survivor rank system based on BP, YES it is entirely the survivors fault for dying trying to save, but they also weren't forced to make the save either. They could punish the killer for camping by doing gens. But with emblems that backfires on survivors and they will depip or at best get a safety pip. Killers depip too but some people are so spiteful they would do that with no problem. When a killer can depip an entire lobby by just standing somewhere THAT IS A PROBLEM.
Also, gen rush is quite a bit worse now because of emblems too. You need to do 1 whole gen by yourself for silver Lightbringer, which is absolutely necessary to pip. Survivors gen rush each other now, not just the killer.
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@Darckshado9 said:
4) BBQ and Chili, yes, its 40 meters, which seems like alot from a mathamatical situation, but take a screanshot of the average location, and you'll find about 4-5 hiding spots for the survivors, and the ability to take out most of those is the marks of a good killer, which means at high ranks you'll often find killers who know where your hiding by knowing where your NOT hiding.Then hide where they think your not hiding? I mean really if you can read a killer you can predict what they will do and easily bait them into doing it. I've been on both giving and receiving end of that. Other day I had a game against a Billy that just KNEW what I was gonna do. He caught me twice, legit full health no tunneling or nothing, in the first 2 minutes of the game. But then something clicked and I realized he was expecting me to play like a rank 1, so I started to play like a rank 20. I would run to a loop, make him think I'm gonna loop, then just flat out run away to so random corner of the map with no pallets. By the time he realized, I'm through the wide open field he coulda easily chainsawed me and almost to another juggle gym. I stretched out the last chase for 3 whole gens, it was like a 5 minute chase easy. He eventually got me, but the point is that you can easily beat this if you know what the killer sees and think how the killer thinks. In competitive gaming that's called a 'read'.
@Darckshado9 said:
5) yes, I agree that people can still pull of the stealth game, but their is a part that your forgetting about, your teamtes! are your teamates running stealth builds to or are they pallet looping the killer, and letting you as a team get 3 gens? most people are probably running with High Agro perks, and this allows the occasional person to stealth, but in 100 games with 50 playing all stealth and 50 playing all Agro, you'll find more survivors in the high agro just due to the current power, there is a reason why DS is so highly valued and its not because of how stealthy it makes you look XDDude I've stealth games where all 3 of the other guys were trading hooks with BBQ and I was running back and forth saving them. I'd be the only one alive after a point and the killer still has never seen me, never found me with BBQ. I hide, and I make smart choices. I don't get predictable. I stealth and get lots of unhooks. Then die because no gens were done and I'm not going to bother doing them if I already pipped.
@Darckshado9 said:
8)Spine chill, sure it works well, but that kinda is what the heartbeat is for, and the only one I can see it being useful against is billy, Nurse will telport into range, Doctor terror raduis will be much larger, and pretty much everything else has an easier counter than Spine chill, Myers/freddy/leather/trapper/Wraith/hag are done by looping, Doctor comes down to smart plays, whether it be in or out of stealth (just is much harder in stealth) and Huntress is done by breaking LOS and jukes. While you can run it and Billy is a big part of the Meta, there are simply better perks even for running stealthSpine Chill literally beats everything except Myers EW1. It is 1000% useful against every killer. Let's you know when Billy or Nurse is about to saw/blink to your position. Let's you know Hag/Myers EW2/Wraith/Freddy/crouched Pig are coming to you before you hear a hearbeat. Against Doc let's you know if the heartbeat you hear is real or not by whether it's flashing/staying lit. It beats Insidious, M&A, NC, BBQ. It is the absolute best "stealth" perk in the game because it gives you so much information about the killer's activity you can just avoid them all game. Like I said before, if you are doing a gen and it lights up, just walk away, completely away. STEALTH ACHIEVED. It's not that hard. You are honestly a fool if you think you can hide near a gen that's >75% done until the killer leaves. No they will search the area thoroughly and if it's a good killer they will find you. Don't give them the chance, just leave. Find another gen.
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@Orion said:
Except "pallet looping" was not defined as "pallet vacuum". "Face camping" was defined as "standing in such a way that the unhook prompt is unavailable for the Survivors". It was an exploit that was fixed by the "swivel hook" update.Swivel hook fixed the specific instance of not getting an unhook prompt because the killer was standing in the trigger zone, but come on really dude? You are going to deny that a killer can't still just sit there and hit the guy as he is being saved? Or grab the guy doing the save? It's still an unwinnable situation.
The specific details of "face camping" are irrelevant because the discussion is around saving someone when the killer is standing right there. Borrowed Time is the only thing that can do something in this situation, and ONLY IF YOU GET THE UNHOOK! Every player needs to swarm the hook with BT for the guy to have any sort of chance to escape, and even then it's honestly slim. I've seen so many games, as survivor and killer, go completely FUBAR because everyone tries to save 1 guy like that. It's obscene how that rewards the killer so much. They go from barely a 1k to a guaranteed 4k. "Oh it's the survivors mistake for..." what? Trying to save someone? Chances are high they are doing it for the emblem, because you putting the guy on the hook and sitting there LITERALLY DEPIPS THEM. They have to save the guy if they want to pip, especially if you were such an awful killer that this is the one and only hook you had all game. Unless they never went down and did 3 gens by themselves, they won't pip that game unless they save the guy. The game forces them to make the save, and killers that exploit that get rewarded so insanely much for doing almost nothing. Every YT/stream has said in a video or on stream that camping is EASY. And it's rewarding. The 1 time survivors don't fall for it and just do all the gens and leave is completely outshined by the 50 other times survivors attempted to make a save and you got an easy 3k/4k.