oxygen
oxygen
About
- Username
- oxygen
- Joined
- Visits
- 8,170
- Last Active
Comments
-
@AChaoticKiller said:
it's no different than when leather face camps with his chainsaw
You can save from that, even though most of the time it's not worth it. Just takes more than one survivor, and probably means a hook trade that's sorta pointless to go for unless the traded survivor has DS or something like that.
I'd imagine you can save vs shock spam doc if he just misses a shock and you time it right? I know it's faster than it used to before his rework but it "feels" like it should still be possible. If it is a way to make it legitimately 100% impossible to save someone I wouldn't be surprised if it gets changed though.
-
Sounds pretty spooky, I'd love to at least try it.
I already love the one in a million matches where insidious is used for something else than camping, like a killer predicting a survivor will return to a gen and jumping them out of stealth as a result. Every time it happens I wonder how the killer can even walk around the map with their gigantic brain 😄
-
I'm still having fun. I'm not a scientist so I don't know anything more than that.
-
Well you know where they are, so you can do whatever you want. Do gens, check chests for a lucky key, break totems if you think they might plan to slam it shut and activate NOED, scout out the gates and try to make a plan.
If they think you're taking too long they can always press spacebar and put a time limit on you.
-
Hard to pick just one.
- Removal of the old-school infinites. And I mean the straight up "two windows on the same long wall with no entity blocker/bloodlust" infinites, not the more recent conditional Balanced Landing infinites or the """infinites""" that aren't infinite at all.
- Several changes to absolutely ridiculous early stuff. No-hook moris, insta-BNPs, We'll Make It applying to Self-Care so people could full heal in the time it took a killer to vault a window, permanent sabo and probably things I've forgotten.
- Introduction of exhaustion. Sprint Burst + Balanced Landing when they both had seperate (short) cooldowns was ridiculous.
- More "recent" changes like instablinds, physical facecamping and instaheals.
- Legion. I might not entirely agree with how they were changed, but something had to change and I'm very glad they did get changed one way or another.
-
@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133145#Comment_1133145
I think it comes back to the gentleman agreement, you either have to agree to it for both sides or not. Either way is fine.
If you wanna run DS and use the broken buildings all the time that is part of the game. But then you can’t complain about slugging, tunneling or camping because those are also within the rules of the game.
Likewise for camping killers, if that’s how you choose to get your kills that’s fine but again you don’t get to complain about a team making an endgame save with BT and call it a cheap perk.
The problem is when someone from either side wants the other to play by the unwritten rules but they don’t want to do the same.
Yeah I completely agree, and pretty much what I meant with my initial post.
There's nothing wrong about playing in potentially annoying ways to win, but then a player really shouldn't be complaining when their opponent does the same thing. In the end it all comes back to the good old "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" line of thinking.
I guess the assymetrical nature of the game makes it harder to have a mindset like this because it's not like if some "tryhard" on the other team is using the OP gun of the current patch you can just use it yourself to even the playing field.
-
@ZoneDymo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133075#Comment_1133075
I see that differently, I think less of a player who tries to give themselves every single advantage they can to "win", like what kind of accomplishment is that? They choose to (ab)use these unbalanced advantages.
I know you speak of what is ingame but heck at that point, why not use exploits or heck just straight up cheat right? I mean you are already busy skewing it as much to your favor.
Hell in this game, De-rank all the way to 20 and completely own new players, what an amazing feat!
Yeah I think less of players like that, like I said, I have no clue why one would even play games if they are going to play like that.
I get what you mean, and I guess it's my past experiences that has made me end up with this mindset. While I don't do that much of it nowadays I used to play a lot of different games in a very competitive manner, where my sort of mindset was fairly common. I and others played to win first and foremost, and the fun came from playing against others that did the same thing. Of course those games might've been more balanced to begin with, but the mindset has really stuck with me ever since.
And the difference between using stuff like god windows and the like and actually exploiting (as in using something not working as described) or straight up cheating is that one is within the rules of the game and the other quite simply isn't. Cheating is completely black/white, if the devs/EAC might punish someone for it, that is not acceptable behavior. Otherwise it's fair game no matter how annoying it is.
Exploits are in pretty much every example I can think of things that are not working as intended and/or described as well. Legion blade addons weren't supposed to repeatedly stack until mending takes 4 minutes. You weren't supposed to be able to trap the killer indefinitely if he lands on your head in a specific part of the map, because normally players are supposed to "slide" off eachother when they land on top of eachother. That sort of thing.
-
@ZoneDymo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133052#Comment_1133052
So if a survivor runs an infinite and constandly goes back to that, thats fine in your book?
Idk, I would think less of that person and wonder why they even play games to begin with.
That's a map design issue, not a player issue. They might be a competitive-minded player that has fun by playing to win by any means necessary, of course a player like that is going to use anything available to them that's not against any rules.
And believe me, I don't like dealing with that sort of stuff either as that's not my playstyle/mindset at all. But to me it's no different than people complaining about "tryhards" using the strongest guns/characters in a typical FPS or something like Overwatch. Yeah, that gun or that hero should probably be toned down if it really outshines everything else, but until that happens it's not very constructive to blame players for using what's available to them in my opinion.
-
It's stupid no matter who does it. It's whining about people using something that's in the game and working as described.
It's pure scrub mentality and nothing else. It's fine to have an issue with a perk, map, killer or whatever else and discussing potential changes and all but blaming players for using something in such a way is the #1 way to look like a textbook scrub.
-
@Frankie said:
@Peanits I feel like this deserves a response.
Killer nerfs and survivor fixes are done VERY quickly (Oni nerf and DS bug with Doc for example). Meanwhile, the sound bug which only negatively effects killers has been in for nearly 6 months now, and it took almost 3 months to fix the Wraith/Spirit lunge, and they still aren't completely fixed yet. I think we deserve to be thrown a damn bone here.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1132216#Comment_1132216
That was actually game breaking and considered an exploit. HOWEVER, people were never banned for the wake up exploit. Meanwhile, people were banned for the Legion exploit. Double standards be damned.
Can't really directly compare legion blades and wake up bugs/exploits if you ask me. The former could essentially completely stop people from playing the game after stacking just a few times. And while I'm by no means claiming the people that knowingly abused the wake up bug weren't dickheads, it didn't have that particular problem.
And it's for the same reason no one got banned for the Tinkerer 2 bug when that was a thing, or the PWYF bug that was around at the same time as the Wake Up one. Unfair and unintended advantage? Sure. Legitimately gamebreaking? Not really.
-
I'd have no issues with this at all because it's not like a player getting more points hurts anyone else.
-
Want to know how you actually make a statement or protest? You stop playing the game. If enough people did this that might actually have a non-zero chance of actually making a difference, as you're honestly just wasting your time with this.
But who am I kidding, lets not forget classics like screenshots of big parts of "Boycott X Game" groups on Steam being in the game they're """boycotting""" on release day 😂
-
The... state of matchmaking at the moment might actually be useful to you if you have a mindset where you want to improve more than anything then.
Play killer as no matter what your rank is you'll probably run into strong survivors. Pay attention to how they play, especially if they're proving hard to catch even while running mindgameable tiles, but pay attention to less exciting stuff like how close they let you get before they drop pallets and the like as well. You can learn a surprising amount this way, when I started playing it really helped me out.
-
I honestly just go by the most vintage unwritten rule of them all: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
@PacifiedByDaylight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1130257#Comment_1130257
Teabag isn`t a tactic or anything, it is just bad manners. Don`t confuse bad behaviour with using questionable tactics.
While I'm not exactly a fan of it, tilting your opponent is totally a tactic that's perfectly legal as long as it's not done in rulebreaking ways. A killer might hard camp someone for tbagging and flashlight clicking, and the other 3 might finish the gens and escape as a result. Someone might give up on the hook if the killer makes it seem like they'll hardcamp/tunnel them even if they're not actually intending to.
-
@feechima said:
Players are toxic. A toxic survivor goes on to be a toxic killer and vice versa. The community is already split in half, why rehash an old topic of discussion in a community where you already know the answer?
Pretty much what I came to post.
And besides it's to some extent a pointless question to begin with as people define "toxic" in wildly different ways. Some people think even pointing or nodding once is toxic, some people think camping even at endgame or daring to use a strong map tile is toxic, and the very next post could be someone that thinks only explicitly rulebreaking postgame harassment is toxic and everything else is fine.
-
I really really agree and I often try to point similar things out. Complete waste of time to blame players for issues with stuff like map or general game design. It's in the game and not specifically "outlawed", so it's just scrub mentality to blame players for it.
I'd love to see changes to keys, moris and other things, but even if they might annoy me it makes no sense to start calling players "cheap", "tryhard" or any other common insults over it. They're just using something in the game. And there's plenty of hypocrisy for sure, some specific ones I see is when people complain about nerfs to "their side" and say nerfs to "the other side" are just "making it how it was supposed to be in the first place" which is... not how it works at all 😄
-
Nothing you mentioned is actually toxic though besides the end-game chat abuse. And when it comes to reporting that's the only thing you mentioned where your reports might actually not be a waste of time (and that's only if their trash talk breaks the rules. "ggez you suck" and such doesn't break any rules)
-
Because I still have more than enough fun with the game to want to keep playing.
-
We don't know exactly how the system will work yet. It might just be based on the same as rank (pip = +mmr, depip = -mmr) or it could be more complicated than that and someone could in theory have a rank of 6 and MMR solidly in rank 1 territory.
Until we know exactly how it determines if your mmr should go up or down we can't really know if it'll lead to this sort of problem.
-
Start looking at it this way: while BPS can make a great game into an amazing game bp wise, it can also make a bad or average game into a good game bp wise. If you get a juicy 25k game that's a crazy 50k game, but if you barely get 9k that's still 18k which isn't too bad 😊
I used to worry about the "BPS Curse" and assumed anyone that DC'd/suicided on hook or hardcore camped/tunneled while one was in play was doing it specifically to screw someone else out of points, but most of the time that player would do the same if no BPS got offered. They're just playing in a way that's normal for them.
Not denying there are people that try to troll, but they're rare. I've had killers insta-DC once the game started and specifically laugh about "wasted bps" when 3 survivors brought them after the game was over, as well as all 4 survivors DCing the moment the game started and doing the same after the killer brought them. But I can count those occurrences on one hand.
-
I'm sure there's weird stuff people can do to their connection even on dedicated servers, especially as the game trusts killer hits based on their perspective of the game. But traditional "everyone freezes for 5 seconds and someone goes down + gets picked up instantly when the game resumes" lagswitch is something I haven't seen since dedis were implemented at least.
For a survivor I guess legitimate connection trouble either between them and the server or between the killer and the server might lead to very questionable situations, again because if the killer hits a survivor on their client it counts as a hit.
So what I'm saying is that someone's connection probably had a hiccup and they're just mad about it.
-
@DelsKibara said:
Is this a new thing now? Calling people who sometimes defend the devs "ass kissers"? I'm pretty sure someone called me a "Cult Apologist" the other day as well.
It's fairly rare but I've seen it sometimes, and a surprising amount of times it's people with the Trusted status that get accused of it too.
Probably the same few people that seem to have an issue with "hybrids" and just count them as a main of the "other side", because obviously someone who doesn't agree with them 100% is an enemy 🙃
-
It's probably for that reason it's still 1mil. They don't want people to have new killers/survivors level 50 with a preferred perk setup 30 minutes after the DLC releases (as well as inconveniencing cheaters back when people could cheat in BP)
Can get pretty close anyway with 1mil + 3 dailies + shards for some shrine of secrets perks you already own saved, especially if they're 60k bp mori dailies. And with the potentially saved up finished challenges nowadays you can save up even more if you really want to.
Personally I don't really see the point and wouldn't mind if it was just uncapped or had some absurd limit like 99m or something, but I get why they do it.
-
It's a minority that wants SWF straight up removed or "banned" (I assume you mean swf removed and/or VOIP bannable by that?). And for good reason, as it's completely unfeasible and anyone taking that as a no-comrpomises stance should just uninstall to save themselves the frustration of never getting what they want, ever.
It's a tricky situation as there's no denying it's an advantage that people can get as much as they want out of (from your everyday casual party of people having a laugh to "death squads") and most actual discussion about it tends to be about stuff like buffing base survivors ("solos") and killers, letting killers know about SWF in advance or extra points. Or mechanical handicaps like decreased repair speed, and while I think even that's never gonna happen at least it's more feasible than "remove SWF".
-
Just chase them out?
If you don't want to see them tbag, EGC will chase them out.
If just the thought of them tbagging bothers you, you probably should do yourself a favor and not play multiplayer games.
-
Unbreakable on its own is fine. Even if you down everyone and someone gets up and resets the game was essentially paused, probably from the second survivor getting slugged even. ESPECIALLY if two are down and one is being chased. Sure it didn't turn into a 4-slug 4k right there and then, but that's still a huge amount of genuine pressure.
If I ever have 2 or more people on the ground I just expect at least one of them to have unbreakable, and if I'm not in a favorable chase with a 3rd survivor I'll go back to whoever I downed first to either hook them, intercept a pickup or arguable best case scenario - make them waste their unbreakable if they have it.
Unbreakable + DS is another story as that's essentially a "counter to a counter", but Unbreakable on its own? It's fine, and will always exist just like DS and BT in some form.
-
Because automated systems can easily be circumvented and then you're back to square one, unless you have an absurd blocklist that gets in the way of normal communication. Just replace an E with 3, an A with 4 and so on - the meaning of the message doesn't change and you're back to having to report them and have someone look at the report again.
On the other end of the spectrum you get silly blocklists. I've played games that have characters that are actual knights... but you can't type the word "knight" because it has the first 3 letters of a racial slur in it! Which if you ask me is very, very silly and pointless.
-
If I could just snap my fingers and fix something I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to magically fix/rework maps before anything else. The massive difference in how the game plays out based on the size and layout of the maps really needs work, and it would make it easier and less "risky" to do changes to killers and survivors afterwards.
It's like perks/addons that stack in some way. They might be weak individually but good when combined, so if they're made strong individually without doing anything about the stacking you can have a problem on your hands. It's the same thing if you do buffs and nerfs based on the more unfair maps, the more fair maps and other maps once they get reworked might lead to unforeseen problems. And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not referring to any specific perks or addons here - I'm simply talking about the very concept of in-game "buffs" and "penalties" that stack and interact in various ways, which can be a tricky thing to deal with in a lot of games. I've played games where stuff like damage resistance or damage boosts can be an issue because of this, where several perfectly balanced buffs combine to make someone unreasonably hard to kill or capable of utterly trashing important damage thresholds.
-
@Rezblaze said:
Hatch Keys completely negate the game.
It lets the survivors bypass their entire main objective.
And while Moris can be pretty unfair, they are NOT at the level of absurdity that keys are. The only really unfair one is the Pink Mori, which can easily be balanced out and is far rarer than keys are.
Moris are actually deceptively common, especially the ebony.
Survivors share items and addons in their bloodwebs and if they get a node that becomes an ultra rare item it can be a variety of things. BNP, Rainbow Map, Skeleton Key, Odd Bulb, Syringe and maybe something I forgot.
Meanwhile on killers it's often either a 100% chance or 50% chance that any UR node is an ebony mori. Huntress? That's either iri heads or a mori. Leatherface or Billy? That's a mori, since they have no UR addons. Some killers have more than one ultra rare, but no killer has as many ultra rares as survivors do. Before the best odds possible was 50% because the UR moonlight offering existed, but they're gone now of course.
I do think the skeleton key and dull key should sorta change roles for starters though. Make the dull key the key that lasts for a long time but don't let it open the hatch, and make the skeleton key have the 5 seconds of charge if it's gonna keep the hatch opening ability (which at least one of them will, because there's hatch-related achievements) even if it's changed in some way to require a channel to open the hatch or something.
-
@Talmeer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1118810#Comment_1118810
After my experiences are infintes not gone. I mean, maybe I am wrong here.
I have started to play dbd shortly after the Legion got released because I wanted to play them, because I have found the idea of a stabbing killer appealing.
So, I have never seen something from before that time.
But if I think on the map (my name memories are terrible), with this huge fabric in the middle and the window on the right side after the entrance in the south of it, then it feels for me as would infinites still exist (as example, there are also other similar parts in other maps).*
Thats not a rant from me to that topic, just my thoughts about it.
Edit: *You can baiscly give up to hunt a survivor if he jumps through this window, if you are not a Nurse, or if he is not the last survivor living.
Original infinites were very different to what people call infinites nowadays. There's still loops and especially windows that make it really not worth it to chase the survivor as they can probably vault it 3 times with minimal risk, but to give an example of an infinite back in the day...
Groaning Storehouse, the map that sometimes has a very strong window open used to not only always have that window open, but there were two windows on the same wall and no entity blockers. The killer didn't have time to walk around no matter how hard they tried, and also vaulted windows slower. It was 100% impossible to EVER catch a survivor there unless they massively screwed up, unless you were Trapper and could trap one or both windows because they could just vault the other window whenever you went through one of them. And again, no entity blockers or bloodlust (even though bloodlust wouldn't help at all in this particular situation).
-
@WiredGamerOni said:
The Bloodpoints Survivors Get After The Match.
I'm genuinely curious, why?
It's more common to see killers get really high point games than survivors, and a bad killer game usually still gives more points than a bad survivor game unless the killer straight up gives super early in the match. And you're not even talking about buffing killer BP gain but specifically nerfing it for survivors?
-
I'd have no problems with this as it doesn't involve any sort of mechanical changes. In other words it even has a non-zero probability of ever happening!
I don't care if someone else gets a lot of points, it doesn't really hurt anyone.
-
I sort of dislike the relationships some things have where people feel like if one gets touched the other one must be touched too. Keys + Moris are the most obvious example, but sometimes you see similar arguements about NOED + Adrenaline and such too. Not meaning to attack you with this at all though 😄
But I do think both keys and moris are just... dumb enough to deserve changes even if I look at one independently of the other. Not really sure how I'd change either of them, but I'm not a fan of their current functions that's for sure.
-
I can obviously only answer based on my own opinion (as I'm sure there's people that think even the yellow mori is "toxic" because of the 1/1000 games where it cucks someone out of a DS + key hatch escape or something), but as someone that in general think moris are dumb and should be changed I have absolutely no problems with death hook mori.
It's not toxic to use moris in any way you want though, they're in the game and working like they do so even if people might find them annoying that's not relevant. The term "toxicity" should be reserved for post-game harassment before it gets diluted to the point where it loses the last little piece of meaning it has nowadays.
-
The only thing I'll ever really say unless anyone else says something first is just "GG", if I don't say that I just say nothing.
-
The favorite killer/survivor thing could be cool as long as it doesn't show anything about which you play more, as that would only fuel the worthless "killer/survivor main!!" shitposts.
For rank honestly full no. If it was forced similar stuff could happen, and if not some people might just assume anyone "hiding" their rank has to be rank 20 or something.
-
Perfectly fine, just like survivors deciding to die on the hook so someone else can get the hatch. One is just a bit of perfectly allowed selfishness, the other is simply altruism.
Sure it's annoying if you realize someone has been sitting on the hatch during the 2 minute chase you just took the killer on instead of working on the final gen, but they're not breaking any rules so it's a waste of time to get angry about it, and especially a waste of time to talk trash to them after the match.
-
@helix43 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1111286#Comment_1111286
They do if they've managed to completely destroy the last 3 survivors. What is it with entitled survivor mains demanding they get a free escape after losing to the killer.
They don't, that's like a survivor getting downed and hooked in the exit gate saying they're entitled to escape just because they made it to the gate. Or even just because they finished all the generators. No one is entitled to a kill until they get it, just like no one is entitled to an escape until they've actually escaped.
If anything I want the hatch to be even more luck based. Get rid of it spawning before it opens entirely so no one can get it and get it because someone suicides on hook/DCs and they're waiting on top of it, make it entirely first come first serve and rework keys to do something else. Of course, this probably can't happen because key-escape achievement(s) exist.
-
They're less useful but they still do something, but now it's at least somewhat situational where you have to decide when to use it. Want to get a gen started quickly at the start of the game? Or perhaps you want one with few charges but maxed speed to try to finish an important contested gen faster?
And while you can sabo less hooks per toolbox (obviously) sabo in general is something that can be done more spontaneously too. If you see the killer taking someone to a hill you can go there and sabo it while before you could forget about it unless it was 99%.
I'm not claiming they're perfect, too strong or too weak, but it's pretty clear what they were going for if you ask me.
-
I think it's alright, the only "that's bullshit!" interaction I can really think of is someone that gets of a hook with adrenaline at endgame, has DS + BT active and then they use it to pick up the person that traded to get them off the hook.
-
Because scrubs will be scrubs and no matter what justification that's used it's still just "nooo stop playing in a way I don't like" or blaming players for things that are problems with game or map design.
Doesn't matter if it's fair or fun, if it's in the game and not breaking any rules getting mad at players for stuff is a complete waste of time. Doesn't matter if it's gen rush, tunneling or whatever else.
And for the record I actually tend to play in a "nice" way, probably "too nice" for many as both sides. But it's not because of any unwritten rules, it's because I have a more enjoyable and fun experience playing that way with my personal goals and mindset in-game.
-
I think way more killers than you think would consistently mori as fast as possible.
Just look at Deathgarden, no matter the incentive for hunters to not instantly execute it was probably the most complained about thing in the game. No matter the balance moris (and since it seems obligatory to mention when talking about them, the same goes for keys) can be incredibly anti-fun.
-
The vast majority of people that threaten to do anything even remotely close to SWATting, ddos or even just straight up "I'll come to you and do something bad to you" is nothing more than internet tough guys trying to be scary. I'm by no means saying it's fine for people to threaten with that sort of thing or encourage it, but there's a very high chance that whoever wrote that post whereever you saw it wouldn't actually do it, or it was just a straight up shitpost.
And even if someone actually does it, that's not the game or BHVR's fault at all. If someone actually does something like that over a game the issue is undeniably the person doing it and absolutely nothing else, and boy must they have some issues to get to that point.
-
-
Not all bugs are equal.
Already stated in the thread but most the bugs and exploits that they have punished players for have generally been related to the ability to take the game hostage (out of bounds/unreachable spots like Crotus Penn bug, the Pale Rose dropdown trap that contributed to Ochido's ban) or what's almost at that level (Legion blade addons).
Stuff like Wake Up, Sprint Burst, Tinkerer 2 or even weirder ones like the PWYF bug that was around at the same time as the Wake Up one? Obviously stuff is broken but they don't basically stop people from playing the game when someone exploits the bugs.
I can't 100% remember if they punished people for using the clown reload bug that let him move super fast by spamming his reload, if they did then yeah that one is pretty weird as it didn't have the utter game-ruining potential of unreachable glitch spots or anything like that.
-
It's part of the game for the killer to be able to prepare if they want. Some perks like Lightborn don't make sense to equip unless there's a lot of flashlights for example.
There's an arguement to be made for stuff like player names as beyond them leading to profiles and stuff it just enables what in my opinion is undesirable and cringy "grudges" and the like, but seeing items is fine.
-
No, because if if I got feelings even remotely close to that even once I would've quit the game without hesitation.
If someone genuinely feels "bullied", "oppressed" or like they get PTSD from playing a video game they're making a mistake continuing to play it. That's just not worth it whatsoever, ever, and most people that actually felt that would quit no matter how much time or money they invested in the game.
Of course I'm well aware that in the vast majority of cases people just use words like that as increasingly meaningless buzzwords that at this point just means "something made me angry/upset"
-
Obviously there's not one build to end all builds as killers are different.
Personally unless I'm playing a killer where some other perk shines (like STBFL on Demogorgon or something) I always feel at home running some combination of BBQ, Enduring, PGTW, Nurse's Calling, Whispers, Discordance, Sloppy Butcher, Spirit Fury.. that sort of thing.
Not claiming they're THE meta, they're just perks I like and I see plenty of killers use while I'm playing survivor.
-
What exactly do you mean? Did someone crouch "inside" or behind the hook while no one was on it, or did they just do the thing where they crouch behind the killer to block them from hooking?
Because if it's the former it wouldn't block the hook action in the first place and the killer should be able to hit them, the only reason "hook tech" works at all is because unless the killer does it properly they might hit the person on the hook instead of the other survivor.
And if it's the latter the killer can just... hit them? It's honestly their fault if they didn't notice in time, if they're by a hook and can't put someone on it that means someone's crouching right behind them. They're either unaware it's a thing (in which case they'll learn), or they got greedy and refused to hit the survivor.