jmwjmw27
jmwjmw27
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I can empathize a lot with you, OP. If you play this game a lot and try to introduce friends, they are matched up to you, and they will likely get stomped, and/or tunneled out as a weak link. I watched the same thing happen trying to introduce friends of mine to the game and there's not really much you can do unless you have 5 people and want to mess around in custom games.
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overall disliked I'd say.
Last time I played her for my daily, it took 3 games because all the survivors would disconnect/give up instantly.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633704#Comment_3633704
First, thanks for taking the time to actually review the footage instead of just making blanket accusations of "obviously a 3 gen killer" like others have. Kudos!
Anyway, I'm basing it of the DAMAGE EVENTS on the upper right, so I wasn't counting the failed skill check. I didn't point it out here because I forgot (I pointed it in the original post), but I was counting the grab at the beginning as a surge hit because under normal circumstances, a lunge like that would have been an expose down, not a grab for some weird reason (client\server confusion, I guess). That's the 8th. I wanted to avoid a grab so I'd get surge value. The game just said NOPE. XD
My point I was making is that reaching 8 isn't some "incredibly rare thing" that happens and that even a LOWER number was initially thought of as being incredibly super rare but "8" to be safe isn't actually realistic in a match. Remember, they said their actual target was under 8...that under 8 is incredibly rare (whatever that might be....6?) and 8 was a "buffer".
For The Game, it's 8 surge\kick events, but 12 if you count the locker grabs because again, under normal circumstances, those would simply be a down and trigger surge. It's just happenstance they hopped into a locker (not all survivors are smart enough to locker to avoid a surge hit, so kudos to them...but that's a rarity). Also, the statement that kicks would have been more effective doesn't come into play here. The gen would have less progress, but the amount of regression events would not change since they never did a tap and go. I leave gens, so they always have 4s+ on a gen. Again, both scenarios are showing the same thing. BHVR says that their initial number UNDER 8 gens is incredibly rare (I'm guessing 6?), but to be safe, they bumped it to 8 so it's super super super rare to happen...AND that it would ONLY happen in a 3 gen situation. All 3 of those videos show this simply isn't true. The fact is, this new change absolutely IS affecting killers who are NOT just camping gens from the beginning of the match refusing to do chases, and that 8 regression events is NOT a super incredibly rare situation that only happens when it's a 3 gen camp.
Here's the kicker though of the point I'm trying to make. In ALL of those matches, I hit 8+ regression events (again, the outdoor map that grab would have been a surge if it wasn't for client\server desync). That is with me only using a SINGLE regression perk - just one....and no information kick perks. If I had been using other regression perks, or making good use out of stuff like Nowhere To Hide, it would have been hitting 8+ MUCH faster. Just for an example's sake in the ones you types out, if I was using eruption, I would have capped out on the center gen about 4 minutes into the match (if you ignore the desync, 6 minutes otherwise) which very well could have changed the outcome of the match (as the gens are far spread out and a slow m1 killer takes a long time to get to the outer edges), all while I was never 3-genning. That's a problem. This absolutely 100% affects non-3 genning killers.
Now, I'll grant you, those survivors were in a losing situation - absolutely. You are correct, there. However, I'm not comfortable with survivors getting outplayed, or survivors making terrible decisions, and the game responds with an automatic killer nerf baked into the match because of that. What we are essentially doing is giving free catch up mechanics for poor decisions for the survivors. That's like giving basekit NOED to killers. Killers didn't play well early on and made poor choices? No worries, can still get a free leg up in the endgame. (not a fan of NOED obviously, ha). Remember, this was only support to hurt 3 gen killers who camp from the beginning and never chase. It's not working out that way.
TLDR;
Essentially, this heavily discourages killers from using kick information perks entirely, because if killers are simply running surge only and hitting 8 regression events (or even near 8 events) in normal non 3 gen situations, then there is absolutely NO room for kick information perks or additional regression perks...as if they do, they will absolutely breach the 8 limit fast. At the end of the day, this change negatively affects killers who specifically are not 3 genning. THAT is my point. Killers will be discouraged from using info kick perks, more than one regression perk, or have to stop to plan out "should I kick that gen?" when they could just freely do so before. Killers already have enough to balance on their plate. No matter how one could say "well the survivors were losing anyway" or "killers are overpowered anyway" or whatever else one might come up with, at the end of the day, non-3-genning killers are being ACTIVELY discouraged from playing as they normally would (info kick perks, seeing a gen and feeling free to kick, wanting to use perks like eruption, etc...). That goes beyond the scope of "this will only affect 3 gen camping killers who don't chase", and that's my point. Not if the survivors would have won or lost anyway...the point is this nerf is out of scope...beyond its intended target. As BHVR said earlier in this thread, now killers will have to be more mindful if they think they should kick something. That's a global statement to all killers...not 3 gen camping lame ones.
Now, confession time. I'm mostly coming from the POV of someone who mostly plays M1 killers. Most M1 killers can't afford to leave the central area of the map. Gens are just too far away to reliably defend. While other killers have sprints, teleports, and so on, killers like myers\GF\pig\trapper and such absolutely cannot afford to run off to a gen off in a far corner. Staying central and not doing extended chases are mandatory, and they are highly susceptible to being bullied. That's why on the Xeno, I feel I don't even have to stay central, I can just use the tunnels to get to even far away gens. His pressure is map-wide. M1 killers don't get that. They depend on gen control perks to buy them time to even do chases, as their chase power is abysmal. If BHVR's whole goal is to eliminate gen control as a killer tactic and purely go on chase's alone, the M1 killers seriously need some reworks. They can only afford to do short chases. This change really hurts their ability to control gens which leaves them holding the bag vs the rest of the killers who are more chase capable. This, I feel, is because m1 killers are strongly encouraged to stay centralized in the map, as the gens incredibly far away just aren't feasible to defend. If this change goes live, then M1 killers need options to spread themselves out further more viably. If we truly want to stop the 3 gen situation, then kicking m1 killers while they are down isn't the answer, reconsidering map design and gen placements is - or at the very least let the m1 killers branch out easier without being punished.
Thank you for coming to my DED talk.
Personal note - thank you once again for engaging in an actual productive discussion. You have my gratitude!
Fair enough. I've noticed that when discussions arise about hitting this cap it's mostly surge to blame (and maybe Eruption). I wonder if there is a way that the system can change to account for these. If it's a simple number increase, I'm not sure what the right number would really be. The M1 killer perspective of being limited in what you bring isn't something I'd considered a lot as I usually bring pain res or corrupt instead of gen kick because of how slow it feels to go out of your way to kick gens on M1 killers. That problem certainly isn't getting any better.
That said, what would a solution be? I can't think of any that are simple and would fix this while fixing 3 gen situations. Numbers increase -> same thing if you play out a longer game with surge, imagine that match on "the game" if the survivors had gotten a few more saves. Allowing the killer to kick gens without regression after the cap helps for certain perks, but would confuse new players and wouldn't do anything for eruption/surge which are the main targets.
Maybe the regression events remaining on gens can increase for every survivor you hook. If you kick a gen and get eruption+surge value, that should be 2 events lost (assuming the surge+eruption damage is counted as one), then maybe you can gain 2 events back with a hook state? In that case, the only way that could come to bite you is if the survivors force a long and slow game, but it would be really hard to design a system that can tell who started it.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633584#Comment_3633584
I wasn't doing kicks, was doing surges. Maybe you aren't aware of how the new system works - you lose charges every regression event, that means eruption, surge, and so on. It's NOT just kicks as you presume. Also, survivors have perks that can counter a pickup. That isn't the killer "messing up". Going down at a pallet guarantees an escape with power struggle if there's another survivor near (like my example: If I picked up, then the one outside runs in and pallet stuns me. If I go for the person outside, then the pallet survivor has enough recovery for a power struggle). That means at least one survivor is guaranteed to get up from the ground. Once I pick up just one of the survivors, that gives the other one not with powerstruggle plenty of time to do unbreakable which is 100% out of my hands, especially considering now notoriously bad the hook positions are in the map (often in rooms where you have to go a long ways and take a u turn to get to them). Going down in DBD absolutely does not guarantee you're getting hooked. Survivors get a LOT of second chances whether from perks, blinds, or stuns to counter being downed. That's not a killer mess up - that's just how the game is designed.
If they aren't running anti-pick up perks, then yeah, it's game over for the survivors. This match ended in about a minute. It was a bully squad, but they for whatever reason didn't run unbreakable and such.
https://youtu.be/S6SvH38N7R4?si=q8u0qSUQs5M8Ki5e
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633341#Comment_3633341
Here's a NON-small map where I had 8 regression events on a single gen, again, doing constant chases and leaving the center of the map several times.
Here is a match where I simply chased and down survivors on The Game. One gen had 8 regression events (12 regression events if you count locker grabs as a surge hit if they simply decided to not go into a locker) and that's including NOT kicking the gen when I could have. As you can see, I did constant chases, including chases upstairs, downstairs, and even to the opposite corner of the map to also try to protect a far gen.
https://youtu.be/CPOpdHtxl6o?si=rtCy5w7V6VksA70X
You'll notice that both of these matches, the survivors kept putting all of their pressure in the center of the map meaning there was nowhere else for me to even be at. I had an unlucky shack spawn on the first match, so naturally the survivors stayed right in the center with the shack since it was a strong loop for them.
Despite me not just parking my butt at the 3 gen at the beginning of the match and never moving - never doing chases - never doing downs - you know...what this "fix" is supposed to only affect, I would be placed in a situation where I have to simply watch the generator go up and up and up until complete without me having the ability to regress it. It would be even worse if I actually used more than just ONE regression perk (the weakest one, to boot!) or if I used kick information perks such as trail of torment. If I was running simply eruption, the 8 charge limit would have been reached within the first few minutes of the match.
You seem to be conflating hitting the 8-event cap with being punished. Yet in all these situations you were already winning and it didn't really matter, or didn't hit the cap anyway. Although props for actually posting your gameplay to argue your point.
For the "bully squad" in the first clip, even if that pallet was never dropped and both have UB power struggle, you already have pressure enough to win the game in the first 60 seconds, along with a ton of gen regression. Dev Peanits has discussed this in another thread already, but if you manage to get 8 downs in one spot and then lose enough of those downs, at that point that's just on you. Hell, in your example clip you already showed that going down on pallets, power struggle, flashlight saves, and CJ tech attempts all have counterplay and you executed it well there.
For your second video, you didn't even hit 8 regression events on any gen. I'll go ahead and list out all the gen regression events (or what would be gen regression events in new patch):
Event 1: kick on gen A at 2:09
Event 2: kick on gen A at 2:58
Event 3: kick on gen B at 3:25
Event 4: kick on gen A at 3:38
Event 5: surge on gen A at 3:49
Event 6: surge on gen A at 6:34
Event 7: kick on gen A at 7:26
Event 8: kick on gen C at 8:11
Events 9 & 10: surge on gens A and C at 8:40
This totals to 7 regression events on A, 2 events on C, and 1 on B. If this game was played on the new patch, your kicks would be more effective, and you would not have even hit the cap.
There was an explosion near the gen at 6:22 but that is a failed healing skillcheck not a generator skillcheck. Even if it was, by the time you would have hit this cap, assuming it was a missed gen skillcheck and that those count to the cap, you have all 4 survivors death hook at 4 gens, the system would not really impact you at all.
As for your third video on the game, I couldn't be bothered to type out all the events again, but you hit 8 regression events by my calculation with a surge down at 12:10 on the Jeff, at which point you already won the game.
If I missed something let me know, but otherwise the mechanic wouldn't have impacted you at all as in game 3 it only activated when you had 2 survivors left and both downed, and in game 2 you didn't even trigger it.
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It's okay.
Still sees use in my killer games, not too often but often enough that I have to remember to look out for it. If I had to guess, I would assume it will always be relatively popular because it is one of the more fun and skill-based perks to use.
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@mustdogen said:
Can't chase too fast.
Can't defense gens.
Can't defense hooks.
Then how should killers suppose to do?
Any advice ?
Who says you can't chase too fast?
Nothing about that is changing. Fast chases are key to winning.
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@fussy said:
While whole community crying about tunneling, i want to ask: why it's bad that killer forces his objectives, but "oh well what else should we do", when survivors do the same?
Completely ignore everything in game because of 4 Resi, 4 Adrens? Oh yeah, these 4-5 minutes matches are completely fair
I'm so tired of being punished for non-tunneling with 4 Adrens, really. (No, Terminus is not good perk against it and i don't want undeserved kills because of NOED)
4 toolboxes with BNP? Sure thing, gen tunneling doesn't exist you stopid killah mains
3 gens done by first hook every second game? 8% of killer's objectives vs 60% of survivor's objectives? Oh your chases are bad. What, it's *popular killer main streamer* match? Oh, survivors are just better than
I mean, all these questions are rhetorical, i know how it's going on both sides and why it's a case. All i want is so people remember that both sides can complete their task crazy fast. And if you want to punish one side for doing their job on a game level, you can't don't do the same for other.
So when i read something crazy like "make basekit DS 10 seconds on both hooks without consp. actions" and don't see "also basekit 60 sec Deadlock and 50% pain res" from some people here pretending both sides players, I always laugh really well from that.
Game really need to be slightly slower on both sides imo. But it also can't be "party game", when game is literally one side competing another and both want to win.
Why it's bad that killer forces his objectives, but "oh well what else should we do", when survivors do the same?
tunneling prevents the survivor being targeted's ability to partake in many aspects of the game. Some people like being chased all game, but some don't. As a survivor being tunneled, you spend the whole game on the hook or in chase, and have no freedom or agency to do anything but run and hope that's enough, which many find unfun.
Now let's look at "gen rushing": Can survivors force you to do any one particular thing, or otherwise prevent you from having any agency in the game? Nope. You can "tunnel" a generator and the generator's feelings won't be hurt. Sure, the killer might not like that they are losing, but that's different from having no agency in the game (even if it in unwinnable). You are still welcome to chase whoever you want, go wherever you want. If you have a killer challenge that isn't based on killing everyone, survivors have little to no power to actually stop you from doing it. On the flip side, good luck doing most survivor challenges when the whole game is spent on the hook, on the floor, or in chase.
Completely ignore everything in game because of 4 Resi, 4 Adrens?
This is actually a situation where you could camp/slug and it would be justified and the afflicted survivor should be mad at their teammates. It is very easy to force survivors to heal or sacrifice a hook stage by proxy camping/slugging when you know they are all injured.
Survivors have been put in a situation through many years of healing nerfs to where resetting and healing is sometimes a waste of time, and it can be better to push gens injured. I wouldn't say this is "completely ignoring" everything, especially with dead hard nerfed, survivors are now sacrificing a whole health state and making it a lot easier for you to end chases and pressure them.
This isn't a scenario where survivors "aren't punished" for focusing only on their objective. The punishment is the lack of health states, and it's up to you to capitalize on it.
I'm so tired of being punished for non-tunneling with 4 Adrens, really.
You will always be "punished" for not playing in the most optimal way. This is not the fault of adrenaline but rather an issue where tunneling is so strong and easy, that every player thinks "I could have won easily if one guy was dead already" and it makes the loss sting more. This is not a fault of adrenaline. You are base game punished for not tunneling because a fourth survivor is alive. Same thing if a survivor decides to do side objectives and give the killer extra time instead of solely doing gens.
If you want an example of a perk that, BY DESIGN, actually specifically punishes more fun, non-optimal play, look at Hex: Pentimento with dull totems.
4 toolboxes with BNP?
We have all seen the videos of 4 minute game speedruns. I don't think anyone here will tell you that 4 toolboxes + BNP is balanced and healthy for the game. "Gen tunneling" is not a thing, but that is a separate point.
3 gens done by first hook every second game? 8% of killer's objective vs 60% of survivors' objectives?
Not a good comparison. First, the game starts with the killer at their weakest and survivors at their strongest. It is expected that the first few generators go quickly and the last few take longer. Second, the survivor objective is not simply "do all the gens". Finally, it isn't really accurate to express the killer and survivor objective progress with simple percentages. If the killer has "25% of their objective" aka 1 survivor dead at 5 gens left, the survivors will most likely lose that game. If survivors have "100% of their objective" aka gens done, but one is on the floor, one is dying on hook, and the other in chase, it is not really representative of the situation.
Granted, it is very difficult to exert gen pressure as some killers on some maps if both sides are decent. But 3 gens for 1 hook isn't really 8% for killer vs 60% for survivor, as I've explained the killer's objective tends to progress quicker as the match goes on whereas the survivor's objective tends to progress slower.
Game really needs to be slightly slower on both sides imo.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there. But most of this thread is an "us vs them" argument farm about tunneling and not really relevant to this point. And when some natural slowdown happens on the survivor side, tunneling needs to both be less optimal and less easy, otherwise it will just continue to be the better strategy and nothing will change.
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Unless you're a twitch streamer, subtle cheaters are probably less frequent than you make them out to be.
It is pretty obvious when a survivor has wallhacks on you, if you play the game enough it is very clear when you are losing every mindgame and they aren't holding checkspots.
Other cheats are really not possible to know. But they are not as frequent as you'd think, if my anecdotal experience is anything to go by.
Chalking up all your losses to cheats in this game is not a healthy mindset to take
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buff the dash, nerf the RBT add-ons and insanely far away box spawns on certain maps.
I wouldn't mind if the RBTs immediately count down if a survivor with one on starts working a gen, in return for making them less powerful especially for tunneling/following while active before endgame. I think in an ideal world they should be slowdown that forces survivors to not do gens but also should encourage/prevent the pig from chasing that player again because it would be a bad play.
As for the dash, increase the duration, leave the speed the same. Slightly buff crouch speed (95%?). This way, your faster crouch speed makes preleaving tiles less punishing, and more duration allows you to mindgame tiles better but leaving the speed allows counterplay for survivors.
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@Krazzik said:
I literally can't play Plague or Pig because I ALWAYS get put against far better players when I wanna play them.
I thought MMR between killers was supposed to be at least close to each other but it seems my MMR on both killers is way higher because I always end up against people I simply can't beat. I'm lucky to even get a single hook.
I don't really know what do besides tanking my MMR on purpose but I shouldn't need to do that.
MMR between killers is only close in the instance you buy a new killer - the starting MMR is determined based on the MMRs of your other killers.
I have blight at "high MMR" but also have billy at low MMR because I was practicing curving and throwing games - every hillbilly game I play has survivors with less than 4 perks, yellow perks, less than 50 hours on steam, etc.
you have to lose a LOT to start getting noticeably less skilled lobbies.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
then you would need skill to loop as survivor. cannot have that.
If you think the red stain is the reason survivors can mindlessly play tiles, I'm sorry to inform you you are very wrong.
Chase with demanifested Sadako on Garden of Joy or The Game and let me know how your chases go.
The red stain in itself allows skill expression from the killer side and removing it would make the game more stale.
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@Anti051 said:
Killer: "It seems like it's really easy for you guys to fly through the gens, by the time I got one hook, you were already 60% done with your objective."
Survivors: "Just pressure better."
Killer: *Puts on Knockout and makes survivors have to stop doing gens and search for downed teammates*
Survivors: "NOT LIKE THAT!!"
Did you miss the part where the killer in question was BMing people and forcing everyone to bleed out for 4 minutes, or are you just trying to make everything an "us vs them"?
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I personally do not enjoy facing mirror myers.
If they don't have an indoor map offering, then the match is just too easy and unfun, because scratched mirror is a joke without an indoor map.
If they bring an offering to choose the map, it's going to be scratched mirror myers camping behind walls waiting for you to position yourself poorly, so the game becomes camping checkspots and open areas and not looping, which is also not fun. It is also very common that they camp near hooks waiting to force trades...
I can appreciate the "jumpscare" meme behind it and why some may enjoy it, but when you have 3600 hours in the game it loses its appeal.
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Agreed.
Personally, I think the "grace period" should have been reverted. People were complaining that the bar would fill up partway if they stayed to reload or kick a gen. But really, who cares, as long as the bar isn't full, nothing happens to you. If it hits up to 99% through normal gameplay without facecamping, great, it's not 100%.
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As everyone else has said, ignoring them is always the move. I'm not sure when this was implemented, but there is actually a system that prevents spam vault notifications from being heard/displayed on your screen if you are far away enough from them. Maybe they could add something for more than 3 consecutive "fast" interactions with a pallet/window/locker as well.
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Don't let them get in your head. You know you didn't do anything wrong, no need to post here to seek validation just because they flamed you.
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The system works really well against face camping, which is what is was designed for.
Since the change, I have been facecamped only twice (excluding endgame), it definitely has done its job. It is nice that facecamping is gone, but the unfortunate side effect is that it led killers who were facecamping to use the more effective strategy: proxy camping. Usually paired with tunneling, it is almost as miserable while also being stronger so I understand your complaint.
In the meantime, run kindred, kinship, or reassurance to make it less effective, that's about all you can do.
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You can technically do one mindgame on it with the right window (with the part you can walk onto without vaulting as killer). While being chased, you can fake it, then vault the left one, gaining some decent distance if the killer pre-walks onto the right side. And if they chase you up, vaulting the right side window gains you some, but not as much, distance.
Edit to add, with enough distance you could call waiting on the other side of the right window a 50/50, but it is too ping-reliant to pull off consistently as you will be getting hit through that vault 90% of the time.
What sucks about the harvester and really ruins it as a fun looping spot is that the killer can ignore this mindgame completely and win it every time. Just wait right at the drop spot for the right ledge until they vault one side, and without Balanced Landing it's a guaranteed hit (if you wait without vaulting they lunge and hit you).
I'm not sure what the solution is to make harvester a bit better, but something should be done to tweak it a little. I wonder what would happen if you had to lunge in order to make it onto the rightmost ledge as killer? Maybe too much time wasted for the killer so the survivor can vault back, but maybe the windows can be further away from the harvester base to achieve a similar effect where the tile actually can be played by both sides.
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@Skillfulstone said:
While the idea is good in theory, there are glaring flaws in the new system.
It's not just the 3-gen situations that are being mitigated, this also puts a hard-limit on several Killer perks alongside making certain perks a near-detriment while affecting entire trials.
The most obvious example is Eruption (an already average perk after it's nerf) that, for every use of the perk, will take 2 "regression events" which makes the Killer able to apply the perk a measly 4 times before the gen can't regress anymore, which chances are might happen to one or two gens before endgame (not only through Eruption alone).
Also, every single perk that are activated via gen-kick, not even regression-based, now have a hard-limit to their value (Trail of Torment, Nowhere To Hide, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Surveillance, etc.) which honestly makes them pretty bad since most of those perks were already niche but are now so limited that other info perks will get more value. Why use Nowhere to Hide or Trail of Torment mid-game if it might make the endgame harder? Those kind of perks often cause Killers to kick gens very often to use them and now the Killers have to calculate every use of their perk and if it's worth it to even use a perk that takes a "regression event" for the sake of temporary information or stealth.
Nowhere to Hide and Surveillance in particular are simply gutted by this change since it causes Killers to, in case of a hiding Survivor waiting to jump back on the gen, kick gens a lot more often (especially if said gen keeps getting repaired by a hidden Survivor that keeps coming back). But then the gens might be low (or even run out) on "regression events" even before the endgame, limiting Killers even before a 3-gen can create itself. The 3-gen "solution" should only affect the last generator and should have NO impact on the rest of the game.
In small maps, Surge could absolutely chew through your available "regression events" even before endgame if the Killer downs enough people, leaving you with like 4 regression events until the generator might as well have a constantly evolving BNP on it. I did, with bots and then with friends (and later in randoms), a few test runs with Surge and Nowhere To Hide/Surveillance (both serve the same purpose and have the same trigger) on The Game, Lérys and Midwich (chose small maps) so I could see it and in nearly every game at least one of the last gens was nearly depleted, making the last gen very hard to defend even though I hadn't even intended to make a 3-gen.
This also, like most changes, affects weaker/slow/M1 Killers far more than the top-tiers since the mobile/powerful Killers, if the Survivors manage to get this far, won't have any issues patrolling gens quickly without needing to kick often, leading to a further gap between them. How are Killers like Trapper or Nemesis supposed to guard a 3-gen (that the Survivors created) or even just gens in general during the game if Survivors are efficient? Too many kicks early-on and the end might be even worse.
This mechanic also empowers genrushing as Survivors can effectively no longer 3-gen themselves by carelessly doing gens that are all next to each other. This essentially means that the "3-gen situation" is reversed: Before, the Survivors were in trouble if they were careless and 3-genned themselves as the Killer had less area to patrol and could find them easily, now the Killer is on the clock if the Survivors 3-gen themselves since they have a limited ability to stall gens before the gens can't be stopped anymore. The Survivors can simply do gens very safely (run early at the first sign of the Terror Radius) and slowly without the Killer being able to do anything about it until it is eventually done after a large amount of time.
Basekit BT and EGC were necessary and healthy changes as the consequences of their absence were felt basically every game. The vast majority of games ending in a 3-gen aren't even because the Killer meant to but because the Survivors did every gens right next to each other in the name of speed. This mechanic essentially erases Survivors's mistakes and punishes Killers for them while limiting Killer's options during the whole game.
While the "obvious" solution would simply be to make gens spawn farther apart (or at least have a minimum distance requirements between them) this mechanic could be used if it only "kicks in" (heh) when the 4th gen is done to truly be an Anti 3-gen mechanic.
If the mechanic is only in effect during the last generator, it directly addresses the issue without making lots of perks, many of them not even being made to guard/regress gens, less desirable and not affecting perk builds too much. Killers that try to guard a 3-gen from the beginning (the problem we're trying to tackle) can no longer really do it since Survivors can simply do the other gens without pressure. It still removes a bit of depth from the Survivor's gameplay but making it active only during the last gen would at least leave Killer perk diversity less limiting. The Killers that end up in a 3-gen situation despite their intentions will at least have a fighting chance even if all 4 Survivors are still alive since they will have a full set of "regression event" and Survivors will likely be in worst shape if the Killer chased the whole trial instead of staying around the same area which means that purposeful 3-genners will be more punished.
The idea itself has potential, it just can't be active the whole trial. Survivors and Killers need to keep as many viable perks as possible (which is why most perk changes in PTB were great except for STBFL which was a complete missed opportunity and counter-productive change that I hope will get reworked another way) to keep the game interesting and discovering fun combos (FTP+Buckle Up is not one of those).
Can you find a video of one non-3 gen game (survivor-caused or otherwise) where a killer uses 8 regression events on a single gen, with any combination of these perks? I'm not being facetious or sarcastic, genuinely curious. Perks like surveillance, trail of torment, eruption, etc, will still be fine. I think the impact is more mentally on the killer thinking "this perk is technically a limited resource now" than it is actually impacting normal games.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623744#Comment_3623744
Its not 8 kicks, it 8 "regression events" which means that those "8 regression events" are going to fly by. The actual strat for survivors now might be to intentionally 3 gen themselves, and then force the killer into the point where they can't regress gens anymore.
They "fixed" the problem of 3 genning by making 3 genning a survivor tactic instead of a killer one.
People keep saying that 8 events will fly by, but I doubt it. If there is one thing we know about BHVR is that they love stats. I would believe that they have tracked gen regression events and that 8 is more than enough for average matches where this doesn't happen. If you look at the thread someone else made, it seems that this is correct and they saw that pattern tracking high level streamer games.
If you're not trying to 3 gen, you can still use pop, pain res, surge and be just fine. If you regress a gen 8 times you should be in a good spot or at least have bought yourself enough time for extra hooks and kills.
Also 3 genning won't be a survivor tactic with this change. If survivors have the opportunity to drag you wherever they want in chase and work on any gens, they will still choose the central ones so that you have no hope of extending the match out or making a comeback. The only time survivors would "tactically" work on gens and 3-gen themselves is if they can't safely work the gens in that area, meaning you are not venturing outside of one area (whether you're hard defending gens or just refusing to chase outside one spot). If this change goes live as-is and the meta survivor strat is to start 3-genning themselves on purpose to play a slow game and use up all the regression events, I'll eat my words, but I'm confident that won't really be the case.
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Rather than making side objectives less appealing to do, pentimento is the issue here that should be changed...
Bad teammates will not stop being bad teammates. And with how many totem cleansing archives there are in the game, you will see people cleanse dulls even if it didn't award any BP (and it also gives lightbringer progress, so you would also have to remove that to prevent people from cleansing them to try and pip). Better solution - pentimento no longer works on broken dull totems, excluding shattered hope.
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@Mushwin said:
If I was able to purchase Moris, cosmetics on ps5 I certainly would, so BHVR don't handle the mobile version, I understand that, and this whole idea of consoles etc cost money, er so do phones, and people (not all) wish the best, yes it's something you use a lot and all the time. But it feels like it's an excuse, let BHVR give us an option to have what the mobile platform does, at least it's a CHOICE, and don't games etc absorb up a lot of battery life when out and about? Heck whatsapp calls drain my phone! lol I think if enough people wish stuff on the consoles/PC maybe have a re think?
Peanits' reply you are talking about here was in response to someone wondering why people like playing games on mobile. It has nothing to do with the difficulty of bringing mobile skins to PC/console which was mentioned in a different reply (different company, different assets, you can't simply drag and drop a DBD mobile skin into our DBD)
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622332#Comment_3622332
It sounds like you just don't really know what to do. It's really easy to break a three gen against any killer who is protecting three gens from the start.
You sit on a gen and run away when you see her coming. That's it. If she chases you, everyone else is doing a gen and you win. If she doesn't chase you, go back to the gen. If she's been camping the three gen since the beginning, you should have four survivors left and she can't keep up.
You should never get scanned or hindered or anything since you're running away from the gen. Why are you running through a cluster of drones? They can't scan you more than once, they have to detect you to activate, and you can see them. A cluster of drones also means the Skull Merchant doesn't know how to play Skull Merchant. If there's a cluster of drones away from the gens, how is she protecting the gens?
If she puts a gen next to a gen, it also shows they don't know what they're doing. You can easily disable it without a penalty or just sit on the gen since it won't detect you.
It's really easy to break a three gen against any killer who is protecting three gens from the start.
Yes, if the killer doesn't have a set of gen kick perks and isn't a killer like singularity/knight/doc with a power that can do it well or isn't generally very strong like nurse/blight, AND you have 3 other good teammates...
And even if all of these prerequisites are met, why bother slogging through a match where the killer won't commit to a chase and you're sitting holding M1? It's a boring playstyle and I hope the PTB solution will kill it off for good.
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Nurse, Pig, Knight, Sadako, Legion, Freddy placed lower.
PH, Slinger, Doc, Trickster higher.
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Yes it is still a good perk, not as good as it once was but still great.
I run it with Babysitter and No One Left Behind in a meme build that gives 21% haste to unhooked survivor in endgame, it makes endgame saves basically free.
Even on its own, the endurance helps against unsuspecting killers and you can't really wait it out. Even if they hit you, the haste is still helpful (how much depends on the killer you are facing, good luck against nurse/blight). The fact that it doesn't deactivate in the endgame also makes it really nice for saves that you'd otherwise have to give up on.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622323#Comment_3622323
I never said you did.
That was a reply to the other guy, my reply to you was further down in the comment I made. Sorry if that was unclear.
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Same for survivor and killer, 3 escape/kill or more.
If I have a particular achievement/quest/goal/meme in mind, accomplishing that in a match is a pseudo-win.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621654#Comment_3621654
i won't cuss you out for using Boil Over, but don't cuss me out for bleeding you out.
I don't cuss people out in endgame chat but okay?
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621654#Comment_3621654
If you are on console, or PC but play with a controller, Boil Over really messes your movement up.
It doesn't justify the salt you've received, but it is a very frustrating perk.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621654#Comment_3621654
I don't cus people out but I feel the pain if you are on controller and on an indoor map. Real pain in the butt!
Interesting. I wonder what about controller specifically makes it tricky to deal with compared to M&K. Maybe I will try it someday to see, probably something about movement being less fluid?
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A lot of killers will cuss me out in chat for using boil over, even by itself without any sabo or map offering trickery.
On the killer side, I was called boring for using no way out and closing hatch since it made endgame a "guaranteed win"
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Some people will take anything you do as a slight against them, and will call it "toxic".
As long as survivors and killers can express themselves, there are things people will consider toxic, just ignore them, let them be triggered about it if they want to be.
Snowballs have no real impact on survs/killers when hit so there is no truly valid complaint as to why they are toxic to throw... Unless you are like the guy above me who somehow suffers physically from it and even then, only toxic if the other side KNOWS that and is the reason they are chucking snowballs...
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@niverso2 said:
Is there any update on if or when exploits on these killers will be fixed? For example hug tech on blight and wesker and being able to do 180s on Oni even though the cap is 90 degrees? I know the devs wanted to get rid of hug tech a while ago but haven’t heard anything since then.
Devs have said they consider Blight's hug tech a bug and that it will eventually get fixed.
I do not believe the Wesker hug tech or Oni 180 flick have been officially acknowledged.
Personally, I think Wesker's hug tech is fine, but Oni's 180 is pretty stupid when his attack hitbox already moves with you during the ground slam (good example in tofu's video on Oni 180 flick) allowing for generous hits.
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here are some interesting combos (assuming no duplicates):
Pinhead + Leatherface - Leatherface camps the box. Painful.
Spirit + Plague - Either stay injured and give Spirit amazing tracking, or cleanse and give Plague her power.
Pig + Pinhead - Insane slowdown basekit.
Skull Merchant + Knight - Puts survivors to sleep faster than Freddy ever could.
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My games have been like this too, killers camping from afar because of AFC, and tunneling as soon as someone is unhooked. It's really unfun to play against these types of playstyles on survivor right now.
I was playing with a friend (who is newish, shame I introduced them to this game) who went down in 30 seconds to a plague, who proceeded to facecamp them to death with power at 5 gens...
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Skill checks exist so my solo queue teammates can blow up generators that I'm working on. They also serve as an activator for a ton of survivor perks and also some killer ones, can't exactly be removed now.
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I stopped reading after "tunneling generators". People who unironically use this term are completely clueless about the asymmetrical aspect of this game and aren't worth arguing with.
If you want to improve at the game and have more fun, first change your mindset.
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It's a spite thing mostly. They're dead either way, why not waste the killer's time and give them less points + emblem points?
Some people also do it in hopes hatch will spawn wherever they've crawled to if they're going to be the last one to bleed out.
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Skull merchant
Knight
Hag
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hot take: circle of healing's second nerf (no free self-care in area).
COH meta after the first speed nerf completely changed the pace of the game and most games were longer by default as survivors were encouraged to run to the boon and heal after the first hit. People complained about hit and run not being viable but that time was actually best for hit and run... now people stay injured with adren+resilience (and previously MFT). It also made 3 genning harder.
I enjoyed seeing boons as killer as a mix-up in gameplay and something for survivors to do that wasn't gens, now you never see them and instead see the same 3 or 4 perks because all boons are terrible picks
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Other than appealing to one's emotions (empathy, concept of "fun chases" or "fairness") you can't really give a random person a good reason to tunnel in the game's current state. It's the best and easiest strategy to win and there are currently no real incentives to not do so. As Pulsar's already mentioned, to effectively "kill" tunneling without just punishing/restricting it you'd need to killers to have a strategy that is even more powerful AND just as easy / easier to do than tunneling. Without any sort of restriction on tunneling this just can't really happen in a way that would make DBD balanced.
I personally almost never tunnel unless I have a reason to get that survivor out of my game (sandbagging teammates / other toxic mannerisms) or I have a relevant tome challenge that I don't want to spend another game trying. In every other scenario I usually feel too bad doing so because I've been on the other side of it and it's usually not very fun.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607815#Comment_3607815
idk... why do people always ask for the full plan when you are just giving ideas or pointing things out?
what do you think an extreme would be in this case? why do you need it spelled out?
it's a survivor team, that is too effective. that is all. it's the obvious thing isn't it? how we reach that criteria may not be simple, but the criteria itself is.
could be as simple as a formula like G/(T*H). where G is gens completion, T is time and H is hook stages +1. if the result is ever bigger than X, then something triggers to maybe slow the game down a bit.
We make X big enough to basically only happen on survivor teams that really rush those gens, and there we go.
it's also independant of it being a swf in this case... if it triggers in solo q, congrats.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607946#Comment_3607946
-ask? people lie. profiles never tell the full story. it is very much something that comes from playing with someone you know.
-is MM fixed? because until it is, still an advantage. which I never called unreasonable. do try to avoid putting words in my mouth.
-there is no chat on console. that's a pc advantage. You should stop using features we don't have as solutions. we do not see what people bring, there is no chat on console. It's an advantage you have on swf. always has been.
-so is the other 3.
you need to see better then.
None of what you typed here matters. We can go back and forth, but at the end of the day, here is all that really matters:
- (1) There is no SWF advantage that needs to be "balanced around" other than using external tools to communicate.
- (2) DBD developers have explicitly enabled outside-game communications
- (3) There is no way to detect whether players are using outside-game communications
If you disagree with (1) then this conversation is over, we will never see eye to eye.
Since (2), comms/SWF will not be removed. Since (3), any suggestion that aims to "balance" SWF by applying some sort of restriction, nerf, or penalty to them will hurt players who don't deserve it (see (1)).
Therefore, the only reasonable option is buffing solo queue by giving them more information.
As for your points:
- There is no point in discussing "advantage" over people lying or trolling. Your teammates should be playing to help you. This is a player issue. It is less likely in SWF, but not an "advantage" to be balanced around. Solo should enjoy that luxury too.
- Doesn't matter if it is an advantage. It should not be "balanced" around when the alternative to make it not an advantage, is fixing an aspect of the game that needs fixing. Also, I did not say that you referred to it as unreasonable or put that part in quotes, do try to not take things that are not related to you personally. It is important to address points/thoughts from others in this thread and it's easier to do by including them in my replies instead of quoting every single person.
- Again, no need to "balance" around an advantage that solo should have anyway. All platforms should be able to see perks/items/add-ons/offerings of teammates in lobby.
- If you have an actual issue with SWF outside of outside-game communications, that is unironically a skill issue and/or "us vs them" mentality. You should not be seeing players being matched with those of equal skill who DON'T want to throw the game as an issue with SWF. Same with seeing perks, as it is something any solo queue team can coordinate beforehand (even console, excluding switch, if you add the player and send them a message).
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Everyone else has made good points, I'll say this:
- Negatively impacts lesser-skilled players
- No real impact for good players on most maps
- Makes blight's worst maps more miserable
This change just makes blight worse to play on some maps and for the average player, will not decrease how powerful he is overall.
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Did they change something about how she aims/throws?
I don't play her often (since 2019) but I do not remember anything significant.
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@TheycallmeLix said:
Love when killers dodge the lobby cuz they see 1 P100 and then they dodge like 5-6x and then the next killer we get is an Ultimate Weapon Blight playing like it’s an tournament.. just so sick and tired of this bs prestige, why didn’t BHVR immediately hid it at the start?!
This I'd say was 50% of my games when playing a p100 character. The other 50% was some poor guy getting backfilled into my lobby because of so many other killers dodging, who then is outmatched and usually ends up quitting.
Couldn't get any good games on my p100 characters
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@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
SWF shold have a limit of which perks can be used. Having the same busted SWF perks (perks and combos like FTP + BU; Adrenaline, WoO, etc.) makes more situations insane when in a SWF. Perks gain a marginally large increase in value when with SWF and shouldn't be used in multiple builds. I always liked to have a team comprised of a Runner, a Gen Jockey, a Healer, and a Jack of All, that way it can be more fun and require more teamwork and accountability.
A solution like this won't happen because it would require BHVR to accurately track and update "broken" perk combos and restrict them in teams. Not to mention, this doesn't stop you as killer from facing 4 well-coordinated solo players who can all bring these "busted" combos and use them to the fullest.
If there's a busted or problematic perk combo in the game (FTP+BU) just remove it. Restricting SWF from using it won't make it not appear in your games.
Also side note but I think it's funny that you consider Windows of Opportunity a busted SWF perk
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606933#Comment_3606933
knowing the general skill level of who you are playing with, what they usually bring, their playstyle, how altruistic they are, etc...
and of course, you know they aren't likely to quit on first down/hook.
all of this is an advantage over solo q. do you disagree?
we can argue over how much of an advantage it is later if it matters...
- Knowing the general skill level of teammates: not really a SWF thing, you can view profiles or ask. If matchmaking was fixed, then every survivor would generally know their teammates are around their skill level, or could ask in pregame chat/check profile.
- Won't give up on first hook: increasing softcap/fixing MM also fixes this. I agree that this is technically an advantage, but I don't think playing with people that won't throw the game should be considered any sort of unreasonable advantage of SWF. Everyone should be able to play with teammates that aren't going to throw/troll.
- What they usually bring: technically an advantage, but depends on the group, also you can ask in pregame chat. There really should just be a pregame menu to show teammate perks like DBD mobile has, and this would be a nonissue
- Their playstyle: this is an advantage, but not one I think needs balancing around.
The only reasonable issue I can see someone having with a SWF is the ability to use outside-game communications for an advantage. And there is no way to punish/balance around that, without also negatively impacting people who aren't using those tools or don't gain any significant benefit from it. Which is why the better solution is give solo queue players more information and tools like I talked about above, as well as improving matchmaking, and buff the weaker killers.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606846#Comment_3606846
Your example pertains to a limited situation. 9/10 games won't matter which survivor you play.
Besides, if I had a Legacy skin, shouldn't I be able to wear it? Why should killers have the ability to dodge me? Like prestige, Legacy shows a lot of effort went into leveling that character when bloodwebs were large and bloodpoints few.
BHVR should only show default skins in lobby. Better yet it should show just player names. No, no killers might remember my name and dodge, better yet the name of my character. No, what if they see four Dwights then think its a SWF. There shouldn't even be a lobby actually. Just drop me in a match. That will stop those damn lobby dodg... Damn its a Nurse. Why is there DC penalty? We have ######### bots now! Why do I have to wait 5 minutes if I'm not having fun? Gah! They really need to get rid of that outdated system!
You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen.none of what you just typed has any bearing on the situation at hand. Prestige should be hidden from the killer in pregame lobby. I've yet to see a single good argument why it shouldn't.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_65QW3h0zM@DyingWish92 said:
Everyone here knows whether they want to admit it or not. When you go against a team that finishes the gens in 4 minutes it's a SWF. Probably a 3 man. The gen speed in this game totally breaks when you go against these teams. That's the problem.
Has nothing to do with SWF. Depends entirely on survivor mindset and items.
If you've ever played the day after a tome level releases with challenges related to generator repairs, you will get very fast gens every match.
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I'd also like to ask what this theoretical, "not a punishment but a nerf to bring them to the same level" would be?
A long, long time ago, I memed around with a survivor I found in one of my lobbies, they were a console player. After the game they sent me a friend request. I've never been on a voice call with them. Sometimes when they are online, they will join my lobby and invite other friends of theirs too, and we play some games. What advantage am I gaining in this scenario? I don't communicate with them at all, and aside from knowing they are a good player who loves altruism and kindred, I know nothing else about them. Their teammates don't seem to ever be on comms either. Despite this, now if I want to play with a friend I made, I am punished because of this system you are proposing. Why should this be the case? If MMR and matchmaking actually worked, I should be paired with survivors around my skill level anyway, so it's not like inviting similarly skilled players into my lobby is an advantage. If there clearly isn't an advantage here, then it would obviously be unfair to punish me for playing with a friend. There's also no way to determine if survivors are actually using external communication like voice calls, which are explicitly allowed by developers anyway.
Another scenario, I have a group of 2 friends who I introduced to this game, both of them are very casual. It is already hard enough to get them to play because of the disparity in our MMR and the abundance of tunneling right now. If this change is implemented why should I even invite them to play with me, knowing I'm not only giving them a sweatier killer, but debuffs on top of that?
It is not realistic to look at this game and conclude that using the in-game feature to play with friends should provide a nerf or debuff.
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@ArchAbhor said:
Here are the facts. Being in a swf grants a certain number of advantages. I'm not going into that now because its been discussed extensively on these forums. Also this isnt a conversation of imbalances between all the killers which is an issue outside of what i want to talk about.
Heres how this effects this game. The pecking order is this. Solo q<killer<swf. That means that solo q suffers because of the advantages that swf hold over killer. If killer would like to chill out and test builds for fun they are shut down because of efficiency of swfs. No room for fun builds. So if the killer wants to be able to win they must bring meta and/or play dirty.
That doesnt mean that killer has a guaranteed win over well-coordinated swfs, but that does guarntee a stomp vs solo q. So both killer and solo q are held hostage to swfs who want to optimally sweat their butts off.
There is no compensation for this. They get assumed free coms and gen and perk coordination. Which compared to a solo q team is an insane difference.
I argue this more for solo q then killer. As killer if I sweat my ass off and bring perks/play dirty I'm usually guaranteed a 2k at min. not including those crazy coordinated team which can result in a loss. As solo q this means that most killers either tunnel me out or tunnel someone else out early on and guarntee that the lack of coordination or perks geared in teams using busted stuff is going to result in the killers wiping the team.
The fix is to add a disadvantage to swf. No this doesnt mean punish people who want to play with their friends. This does mean that there needs to be a acknowledgement that you have an advantage over solo q and are going to accept a penalty to bring you to solo q levels. This level should be the base relationship between the killer role and survivor role.
These should be experimented on to determine what nerfs to swf should make them equivalent to soloq. This means that the results of swf should be tracked compared to solo. Go slow. Make sure its not anything insane.
This should go in the opposite direction as well. If the nerfs in fact bring swf to solo q levels then the tools killer uses to counter well-coordinated swfs should be nerfed as well.
Swf mains are going to complain and argue so they maintain their position to be able to bully killers but this needs to be counteracted with information gained through the difference between solo q and swf.
In conclusion there are extremes to this game that hold the opposite hostage because of their advantage. This instance is Swf holds solo q hostage because of their heavy advantage forces killers to play dirty or run busted build over all teams including teams that are unable to handle it like solo q.
There are other conversations on the opposite end that need to be talked about. How nurse and blight and other busted killer builds make survivors feel like that they need to be in a swf to survive them.
However as of right now swf is top dog and needs to be addressed first.
All I want is the extremes to be brought in so that we all can enjoy the game in spite of the sweaty players. Please be productive if you are adding to the conversation.
It's a party game, not a competitive one. There should not be any restrictions or punishments for playing with friends.
As for your argument that "These same people are ok with punishing people for not playing with friends", that's a completely false strawman. Nearly everyone everywhere on this forum will tell you how bad solo queue is and that it should be improved, it is very weird to put these words into the mouths of people who simply don't want restrictions on playing with friends.
If you want to improve solo queue (which should be done), bring them closer to SWF. Then buff weaker killers where necessary. Give solo queue the ability to see each other's perks. Try out some form of set communications or more info in a PTB. Anything.
Weakening SWF does nothing but hurt people who want to play with friends (which will make a decent chunk of the playerbase leave) and does nothing to address solo queue's horrible experiences, and doesn't help killers against good survivors who are paired together by chance. Good survivors do not need comms to win. If you really want to reign in the extremes, target the strongest items, add-ons, and maps for both sides, as well as the highest tier killers.
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Maybe it was removed when lightborn was changed?
The fact that it's gone allows you to act like you don't have it (looking away/down) to get more value out of it, but I can see an argument that it should eventually show itself so new players aren't confused on why their blinding perks/items aren't working.
Another solution: just implement a way to read perk descriptions without owning them... It's crazy that new players have no way of knowing that a killer perk exists until they face it and then wait to the endgame screen, or google a wiki.