jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358547#Comment_3358547
Like? Without taking away his kit for a full rework how do you give Trapper the help he needs? All other trap characters start with all their traps, easily can replace them, and have some sort of movement aspect to them. So I was suggesting a way to put him on par with them in terms of utility and movement.
Clown does have different effects on his bottles. With his add-ons Kerosene Can (Blinding I know but it’s there) and Sulfuric Acid Vial (Mangled until Healed). The first one is meaningless unless that person is running Windows, and the second one can be paired with his perk Coulrophobia for a decent degree. I personally want one with Oblivious or Deafening
I've gone at length about why Trapper shouldn't start with his traps in other threads, but for brevity I'll try and do a TL;DR: The tactical juggling of traps and choosing where to set them ahead of time is an integral part of Trapper's identity that shouldn't be removed without extremely careful consideration, and simply giving him all his traps at the start of the game allows him to just brute force his way into a down and then set up around the hook without much thought. That's why the Trapper Sack has the downside that it does, to dissuade that tactic and let him use all his traps the way he's meant to in a risk/reward sort of way.
As for what would help him, a few things. Traps should spawn closer to him and towards the centre of the map so that he can pick them up easily and won't ever be in a position where he loses access to part of his power because it spawned in a far corner of the map, for starters, and after that I'd suggest that his traps should no longer be revealed by maps and should get either realm-appropriate camouflage or partial transparency to help future proof him against brighter and less grassy maps. Those are his biggest problems, and there are a few other small tweaks that'd help him sit in a better position. I saw someone suggest he should get to toss and arm traps like Freddy's snares, with a short delay before they set, and that'd honestly be a pretty cool change that helps him be more mobile. I definitely don't think his kit needs to be fully reworked, just tweaked.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358527#Comment_3358527
Which both have easy fixes too.
Trapper Just needs all his traps at the start of the match, then replace his bags with new add-ons that give him haste if they are triggered.
Clown just needs his yellow bottle to be a drinkable one. He downs it (while tilting his head back a little so he can’t just eyeball the survivor) then gets his speed boost for a decent bit of time. Make it cap at 2 bottles of the speed soda.
I don't think it's something that needs to be "fixed" in Clown's case, there's nothing wrong with a mechanically simple character that has a mostly predictable skill ceiling necessarily. It's fine that Clown doesn't do much, but does it well- and if you want to give him some buffs via new mechanics, I'd sooner see addons for different bottle effects, that'd be more interesting.
As for Trapper, that's a terrible idea for a few reasons. He could use help but there are definitely better avenues to take than that.
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I think it's a pretty open and shut case, personally: Trapper.
No other killer has as much holding them back for as little reward as Trapper, in the current state of the game. Next up from him would probably be Clown, since both of his bottles mostly do the same thing and that thing is only "decent".
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I wouldn't really call either of them nerfed into the ground, though.
Don't get me wrong, they could both use help, but it wasn't the nerfs that harmed Billy the most- Overheat makes zero difference at all, and losing his good addons did hurt a little but I'd personally argue he's more a victim of being outdated than he is of a specific update killing him. Things like more collision heavy maps, and the way the game has generally sped up enough that his kit can't quite keep up.
Deathslinger is also in a much better spot than most give him credit for. That's not to say he's perfect, I'd say the way he feels suffered the most and that's something that absolutely warrants more help, but he wasn't nerfed into the ground- most of what was changed was very necessary and healthy considering the state he was in prior to the update.
Both of them need changes, but it's unfair to say they were "nerfed into the ground and left to languish" since that isn't really true of either of them.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357200#Comment_3357200
It is infuriating to be stunned and then flashlighted... Flashlighting at that point is just you being an #########. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sure, but it's them choosing to put themselves in more risk to be an #########, so I can't really get mad at it. I'll take a blind and the knowledge that they're not making distance to the next loop over a hold-W gamer any day.
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I'm hardly a heavy flashlight user myself, I don't think I've ever brought one in my occasional survivor games except for challenges, but I can provide: They're really easy to dodge.
At least if they're trying to get a flashlight save, those are easy to dodge. You obviously can't dodge pallet blinds, but eh, that's still more to your benefit than it is your detriment so I don't get mad at it.
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The thing I don't get about posts like this is, what about all the stuff they've been doing recently that was explicitly asked for by the community?
The big meta shakeup patch, the solo queue improvements, the Eruption nerf, things like that. Those are things the community asked for, and BHVR have done them. It seems clear to me that they do listen, and not only do they listen, they also take the extra step of acting on that information a lot of the time. You could make the argument they do it slowly, and I'd agree with that argument, but you can't make the argument that they don't do it at all.
Side note, we got a new map last chapter, and updates to three maps in this upcoming chapter that make them functionally new. Not sure why that's on your list there, same as more perks, we've obviously been getting them.
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The biggest sticking point would be animations it can't avoid needing to have. Things like window vaults, pickup and hooking animations, stuff like that. It'd also need to be roughly humanoid in shape/size, I think, for similar reasons.
Though, BHVR have been inventive within those limitations before, so I still think it's possible. Hell, we had Demogorgon for a while, and that's definitely more monstrous than the average human.
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They've got some decent options in the generic perk pool. Fearmonger and Jolt are both very solid picks in the current state of the game, Whispers and Bitter Murmur are both decent (but not amazing) tracking perks, NOED is decent-ish. Depending on the killer they prefer playing there are some okay choices; Hillbilly has Enduring and Lightborn which ought to be helpful for newer players, and Tinkerer is generally decent. On Trapper, Brutal Strength and Agitation are both helpful enough to consider running, but Unnerving Presence is probably not worth considering. Wraith and Huntress have crap perks, though, so nothing doing there- maybe Bloodhound, that's pretty much the only defensible perk out of those six.
Honestly, while there's nothing meta, your friend has a fair number of good perks to pull from here. It'll depend a lot on context like preferred killers and any area they're struggling before full builds can be suggested, though.
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Depending on context, the second two can be.
There's not really any benefit to hitting people on hooks, so, I don't think anyone would call that a strat per se.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354871#Comment_3354871
Make no mistake, new eruption is still yet another bad perk to toss on the pile. But at least it does something now.
I disagree, I think it's just more niche. If you run Eruption on, say, Windstorm/Shadow Dance Wraith, you're gonna be able to cross the map and tag generators pretty quickly-- and if you can get a down swiftly enough, which isn't impossible at all on Wraith, that's a mapwide Jolt, more or less.
It's not nothing, it's a perfectly serviceable perk. It'll be far more in line with the other regression tools, once the changes hit live.
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The "disables at endgame" element of the 6.1.0 DS nerf was pretty fair, so I wouldn't say revert it entirely. Bring back the longer stun animation, and it'll be fine.
OTR is a lot better than people give it credit for if it's used properly, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with having two strong, viable anti-tunnel perks in the game. In fact, the more the better, really.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354876#Comment_3354876
I whole heartedly agree.
What is your opinion on the OGRuin effect coming back in some form? Perhaps as a TR perk or a Gen Kicking perk?
I wouldn't be against it. It would definitely need to be in a limited capacity, something like a timer on a kicked generator like you suggest would definitely be a decent idea.
The problem with the old Ruin effect is that skilled survivors can hit Greats pretty easily, but I think in the current state of the game that's still effectively slower generators than you'd get otherwise, and if it's only limited it doesn't screw over newer survivors too bad.
I floated it once as a change to Trapper's Unnerving Presence, too, which I'd still be interested in testing.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354871#Comment_3354871
True, what would you suggest be tweaked about the information?
Maybe changing it so it becomes like BBQ? If you hook the survivor before twenty seconds all effected by Eruption will have their auras shown for ten seconds? Making a Killer work for a stronger effect and it only effects those who got hit by the regression first?
Changing the trigger to a hook has its benefits, but it also starts to step on the toes of other regression perks a little. What I'd personally like to see is actually changing how the information is revealed- instead of survivors who are actively working on the generator, have it be a little range around the generator instead.
That way you'd get more reliable information, and you can choose if it's worth slugging or if you'd want to follow up on the info after a hook. Like I said above, I don't mind if the info half is less of a draw, but I would like to see it be a little more reliable and thematic with the idea of controlling the trial.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354860#Comment_3354860
Considering the placement of the twins in the picking pool it’s hard to say anything about them. I for sure would never want to actively nerf them however.
Im just under the mindset of “If it’s unnecessary then why have it” Aura reading is amazing but has its moments when you don’t need it. After a hook? Yes. After a Save? Yes. After a down on specific generators? Not so much. It’s like survivor’s getting the killers Aura for a few seconds after they’ve hooked their friend. You already know the killer was over there. You didn’t need that information and is only good with certain killers who can move fast.
That’s why I’m an advocate for keeping a form of slow down so the killer can worry about the hook more than the auras of survivors that will be gone by the time the downed one is hooked.
I do appreciate the feedback.
To be clear, I wouldn't be against this change being made to Eruption specifically, it's just a pretty bad idea for the Incapacitated status effect since that is extremely important to Twins and relatively important to the few other killers that can use it.
Personally speaking though, I like that they went with more of a hybrid design of regression/info rather than pure regression/regression. I think it could be tweaked a lot more, but I don't think it's inherently bad for the perk to have passive, ambient information instead of a second slowdown effect. Either way, we're on firmer ground talking about Eruption itself rather than the status effect as a whole.
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Well, remember that Incapacitated is not primarily the Eruption effect, it's an effect that Eruption also uses. Incapacitated is primarily the Victor effect, and if you could work on generators - even if with reduced inefficiency - while holding Victor, that would be a gigantic nerf to the Twins that they absolutely don't need.
The problem is truly just that Eruption never should've used an effect designed for a specific killer's power. That's not to say Incapacitated can never be used anywhere else, since it also applies to a few other killers at this point, but even release Eruption was in hindsight a problematic design.
As for changing Eruption itself, I don't mind if the secondary effect is lacklustre. The main draw of Eruption is the regression, and since that PTB change isn't hitting live, I think the perk's in an acceptable spot.
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I'm very pleased with it myself, too. It's a much healthier design and looks like it'll encourage some of the more fun elements of the game by pushing players to be a little more proactive and altruistic throughout the trial. Bonus points for it being an Exhaustion perk to maybe incentivise swapping off The Big Few, which I like.
How many people want to use it will remain to be seen, but it's definitely a huge improvement.
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@jordywordy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354253#Comment_3354253
This version of her evokes more "horror" than BHVR's version. Killer's should be scary. Whether it come from visuals, lore, or game play, and I think most players get none of that when they look at her.. Let's be honest, her current design has a very minor cult following at best..
Eh, it doesn't invoke more horror in general, it just invokes a more straightforward kind of horror. Like Trickster, Skull Merchant's horror is more conceptual and filtered through a more flashy design.
How many people like it is both impossible to ascertain until she's been around long enough for pickrates and sales data to be available, and not really relevant to whether it's a good design for the game.
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How does this better evoke her concept at all? A character like this wouldn't be hiding anything, she certainly wouldn't be able to conduct her business as usual between hunts.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this design, of course, but it'd require a wildly different character concept to go with it.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353674#Comment_3353674
You are minimizing people’s legitimate concerns by saying they “don’t like it.” It’s like saying someone just “didn’t like” their steak because it came out completely raw.
Do you not think it's possible you're overvaluing the complaints because you agree with them?
The literal only complaint I've seen that isn't personal dislike is that her power might be too good at 3-gen strategies if it's not monitored carefully, and that's hardly on the tier of needing an official response. Everything else is personal dislike.
This isn't a completely raw steak. This is a perfectly serviceable steak seasoned a way you don't like.
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There seems to be a sentiment I've noticed where some folks expect a PTB to be like, wholly optional stuff? As in, BHVR should be willing and able to fundamentally change things between PTB and live, based on community feedback. I'm not sure how that could even work on a purely practical level, let alone it being a desirable outcome.
This game's killers (and most other game's new content for that matter) aren't designed by committee, they're not getting feedback on whether a power or lore concept is a good idea. They're getting feedback for bugs, balance issues, and other such gamefeel related things. That's why the buffs from PTB to live are usually just small number buffs, that's what the PTB is for.
The stuff on the PTB is like, mostly finished. No game studio in their right mind would put this much time and effort into something they're willing to scrap and change on a fundamental level, that'd be an insane misuse of resources.
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@jesterkind said:
They did update this perk! They added a speed boost to the healed survivor when they're picked up, so the main reason you'd run the perk would be the aura reading and the speed boost.
I'm not even sure if the perk even has the aura intensity anymore based on the wiki description, I don't own Ash so I never tested it.
Well this thread got completely edited while I was typing, lol, it used to be about Buckle Up
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They did update this perk! They added a speed boost to the healed survivor when they're picked up, so the main reason you'd run the perk would be the aura reading and the speed boost.
I'm not even sure if the perk even has the aura intensity anymore based on the wiki description, I don't own Ash so I never tested it.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352586#Comment_3352586
Even just recognition of it would help.
Right, but again, recognition of what?
The fact that some people just don't like it? That'd be a really weird thing to make an official comment on.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353023#Comment_3353023
I didn't see a mixed reaction, I saw mostly negative.
No one's opinions should be discarded. They should all be weighed equally and individually. I see the balance to lean toward negative on this chapter.
The Orwell reference concerns Behavior telling the audience what to think about their work instead of reading and absorbing what the audience said and deciding how to respond in the product expression realm.
Other people clearly(you're here) support the chapter, this is acknowledged. I believe they ignored the criticism of the chapter across all its levels and just went right ahead and said:
"STFU and enjoy."
"Also, she'll be in a bikini next month."
I don't care about any of the above. I was just pointing out that they told people what they should think, which is the norm today, instead of letting the work stand on its own.
Okay, but you do understand they're not actually telling people what to think about the chapter, right? It's just a little BTS video that was absolutely filmed ahead of time and was just released on schedule like the rest of their promotional material.
Like, at most, you could make a passing comment about it ending up being poorly timed on a purely accidental level, but it is literally just regular ass promotion. A little behind the scenes to interest people who like that kind of thing and shed some light on their design process.
This wasn't a response to the backlash. If it is, I have to commend BHVR on how quickly they filmed and edited it, frankly. If you expect a response from them, I'll refer you up to my first comment here: What could they possibly say that isn't "we're not releasing this" to make everyone happy?
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353001#Comment_3353001
I am referring to Behavior, themselves. They released a promo video to explain the chapter. They told us how to feel about the design and use of the killer.
The public responded with some other ideas, before the video was released based on PTB testing.
Reading over the PTB forums and Youtube the general response has been negative, for various reasons.
I suppose, it being an internet space, you can find someone to support any point of view. Weather or not they actually enjoy the product on its various levels, I don't know or care.
And as an aside Fog Whispers, as far as I understand the program(similar to EA game changers) are paid, via influence over development and clout. Both are valuable commodities and allow the payer to assert pressure.
Sure, they released their little behind the scenes thing to talk about the design and show off the work they're proud of, but the debate had started before that was even posted. Clearly the reception was mixed before BHVR posted anything at all, and so clearly the people who like this chapter aren't swayed by official comments one way or another, they just actually like the chapter.
So... what's your point, exactly? That releasing a BTS video for a mixed-reception chapter is Orwellian? That the people who like the chapter should be discarded for thus-far-unstated reasons?
I'm being sincere, I'm not following what point you're making here. If it's not that BHVR are influencing people to comment positively where they wouldn't otherwise, what is it?
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352924#Comment_3352924
I did not say or imply anyone was paid. They presented the opinion they wanted the public to have about their product.
How is it contentious to imply that the company that financially invested in a product would cultivate a positive opinion about the product to drive sales?
And what does this have to do with Occam?
I think it is simpler to assume motive from the entity invested in the product. I mean, its not a conspiracy, its common sense. Its the status quo. Hence my Orwell crack.
PTB forum shows the actual public sentiment around this product.
Then who are you referring to? The only people who'd have an investment in following BHVR's wanted response would be the Fog Whisperers, and they seem pretty split on it from what I've seen.
Since they aren't giving the same response, and nobody else is under any influence, that just leaves the simplest outcome: that anyone commenting positively is doing so because they feel positively about it.
The PTB forum does not show the actual public sentiment about this product. It shows this forum's sentiment around the product. This forum is not the entire playerbase, and let's face it, this is where people mostly go to complain to begin with. Besides, this forum's opinion is as split as any other area, there are people here defending the chapter.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
They did respond.
They loudly proclaimed that it is AWESOME and you LOVE it.
They got some people to assist in the assertions.
Orwell, is feeling very smug in his grave.
My guy, it's a video game.
If people say they like it, Occam's razor indicates they like it, not that they were paid by the company to say so or anything. Is it so insane to consider that people might just have different opinions to you?
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352368#Comment_3352368
"For a period of [x] seconds after Dead Hard is used, whether it was successful or not, you cannot drop a pallet."
You're forgetting one key part of the doctor limitation : you cannot vault either.
Your idea would make it so most people would not use DH. The smart use of this perk is to use it around obstacles where the killer must either choose to swing during a timed event window.
Your change does nothing to address "the third health state". As I said before either give DH a broken effect on use OR give it some kind of negative so that healing with that perk is a huge waste of time.
It would read something like : healing actions on you take +100% longer with DH equipped.
DH once per game would be fine. We suggested this years ago as well.
Eh, I don't really think Dead Hard near windows is as much of a problem, so I'm kind of ambivalent on that restriction being there too. It wouldn't hurt or anything, but DH at windows is dramatically easier to counter and not quite as useful even if you swing into it since it forces a slow vault, so... not as necessary. If that's how they chose to implement it, though, no complaints from me.
As for people still using it, of course they would, they'd use it to be more aggressive in chase and take extra risks. Dead Hard with my changes would still allow you to bail yourself out of a deadzone if your timing is good, and it'd still work against certain killer powers without being quite as powerful. It would be a perk with a clear niche, but people would hopefully start considering other Exhaustion perks for something other than what Dead Hard is meant to provide.
I'm not aiming to change the "third health state" possibility, because I like the idea of that being your reward for taking risks. If the risk breaks against you, rather than in your favour, you not only get no extra health state, you're downed. That should be a meaningful risk, and that's why I'm taking aim at the things that prevent it from being so.
DH once per match would, again, make nobody ever run it. There'd be no niche for a perk like that. It's just a Styptic Agent but worse, and taking up a whole perk slot. Unless you mean old Dead Hard once per match, and call me crazy but I think an uncounterable and overpowered effect is bad even if you only get to use it once.
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It's a hard perk to make use of, primarily because it's not realllyyy in your control.
The ideal scenario for using this is a survivor finishing a generator in your face, on a map with a lot of vault points- so something like Lery's. Both of those things are meaningfully out of your control, and the effect you get if the stars align is only really decent at best.
Unfortunately, it's just kind of unlikely to see value from it. Thankfully the other two Demogorgon-turned-generic perks are pretty solid, so those two can be used to decent effect.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352594#Comment_3352594
People’s gripes are pretty clear. It’s not accurate to say people just “don’t like it.”
- Killers design looks like a Fornite or Apex character.
- Killers power is weak other than 3 gen play, which is disliked by most and is a main criticism of the Knight. Even if buffed it is still very boring.
- The perks are weak and will be little more than bloodweb pollution
People seem to like the Survivors themselves and the map changes.
Right, but first of all- that first one is just not liking it. That's an opinion, there are people who dislike the way she looks for that stated reason.
The second is only true because she's weak, and even then she's not that good at 3-gen strategies compared to the average killer. The response is to buff her, which, there's no way they won't. Whether it's enough is one thing, but let's keep sight of what we're talking about here.
The third is... yeah? So many chapters have weak perks. These ones aren't even that bad, they're just decent for the most part. That's not a reason to call for even an official comment, let alone call for them to say they're changing everything.
Two of those three, the second two, are also the things that BHVR do comment on.... in the post-PTB patch notes. That's where that comment goes, that's where they say "here's what we're changing". It's not new, there's nothing that warrants changing the way they do these things. It's just, the PTB has some balance problems. That's half of what the PTB is for.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352535#Comment_3352535
If you wait it out, the survivor you're chasing will hold off on the DH as well. That is until they spin a few times and then they either:
- reach a pallet to DH there (which we both agree shouldn't work in the way it does)
- get out the DH the moment you hit
- don't get the DH and you still waste extra time just because of DH's existence
Besides, then we're back at square one and everything I said in the opening post still holds. I don't want to be put in a situation where I either have to accept they'll just DH my lunge or my power or wait it out. "Waiting it out" is not the experience that any game should provide. This should not be a thing.
The difference between waiting out DH and waiting out Pain Res is: What happens, if you don't wait it out? Then DH = 3rd health state and Pain Res = you scream and that's it. I'm assuming you're talking about the whole Pain Res + DMS combo though. In that case the difference is that you can actually react to it. You see the aura of the survivor getting hooked before the Pain Res procs and with the next patch this will be even easier because the hooked survivor will scream sooner than Pain Res activates as well.
Of course, you can always miss your power just so that the DH will not go off but how is that acceptable counterplay? Mess up, so you don't give your opponent an even bigger advantage? It's not hard to react to most of these powers (respect, if you can pull it off against Spirit though, that's seriously cracked). You have more than enough time. If it was that difficult, we wouldn't see so many successful DHs against killer powers. Most powers give you a sound clue that you can use to time it. Faking your power works on the same people that would fail their DH anyway against a lunge or killer looking up and therefore these people shouldn't be unhappy with DH getting butchered. Simply switch to a perk you get value from for crying out loud.
The thing about other exhaustion perks though is, nobody is as triggered by them. Lithe doesn't come at the end of the chase and chances are, if it does the killer is doing really well in that chase. On top of that how many times have you seen survivors getting while activating Lithe. It happens fairly often, which again softens the blow. SP as well and it requires way more skill and thinking than DH does. Overcome isn't exactly nice to face (mainly because it promotes Shift + W gaming but that's an issue we'd need another discussion for) but it's far better than DH. Balanced Landing only works, if the survivor can make it to a part of the map where they can activate it. The other exhaustion perks I hardly need to make an argument about. Only DH is this giant middle finger that rewards a survivor that got outplayed by the killer by even getting into position to hit them in the first place.
Remember when everyone hated on NOED because it was "rewarding the killer for losing". How is DH any different from that? You screw up and have a crutch to get you out of this position. Great. The only reason the complaints about NOED stopped is because it was nerfed considerably and because of that isn't used as often anymore. DH on the other hand? Some people will never let this perk go as long as it isn't complete trash. The one perk that stood as the pinnacle of DBD's meta for 6 years with the highest usage rate by far, creating more controvery than anything else in this game, and that even made some players quit the game (look back at the survivor queue times right after the latency change) was not pushed off the throne and worse yet has the same horrible "counterplay" it had before, while getting even stronger in some situations.
All I want to see is this perk nuked. We tried nerfing it. Didn't work too well. Time for some more drastic measures.
Okay, I wasn't sure up until this point if you meant literally waiting it out, or you were being hyperbolic in referring to baiting it out. Neither's bad, I just wasn't sure which one it is, until now.
So: You don't just stand there and wait. You flick your camera upwards if that's all you have, or you fake your power animation if that'd work- Wraith is the best for this, but there's a number of other killers that can do some kind of animation in addition to the camera trick that'd bait out Dead Hard from twitchy survivors, and that show non-twitchy survivors you'll try and bait it out- which means you can then hit them earlier to take them by surprise.
That's why I don't really like the idea of even reworking Dead Hard, let alone nuking it. There's actual interaction in the way this perk functions after its rework in 6.1.0, and I don't like the idea of taking away depth from the game like that. If DH is being used outside of the scenarios where it's actually a problem, the ones we both agree on like the pallet game, there's actually some back and forth in the way both parties engage with the perk. The only other Exhaustion perk that's true of is Head On, and that perk is basically just a meme.
I do remember people complaining about NOED. They were wrong then about it rewarding bad killers for losing, so it's not super relevant to this discussion.
We tried nerfing it. It worked out super well and downgraded the perk from "blatantly overpowered monstrosity" to "strong in general and really annoying in some scenarios". I'd like to see that trajectory pushed forward so the perk can actually be considered "pretty healthy overall".
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352586#Comment_3352586
When the overwhelming of your dedicated player base is upset with your new release, it’s time to make some changes and keep them informed in the meantime.
Yes but, what should they be saying? Nothing short of "okay we're completely changing everything" would actually be a response to what people are saying, and they obviously shouldn't be doing that for a myriad of reasons- and even if you think they should, that's not "official comment", that's "changing everything".
There's nothing they can actually say that would sate the people who are mad about this, so we're automatically moving out into the realms of them making changes, and making changes that fundamentally change what this chapter looks like would anger all the people who actually like it. There's nothing to do but ride it out, from a business perspective.
Like I said, if there were something to respond to I would agree with you, but this is just people disliking a chapter in general.
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I mean, what kind of response would they even give, though?
There's no concrete cause for offence that'd warrant responding to, like if they'd used accidentally bigoted/offensive material or something. A bunch of people just don't like it, I'm not sure what a response would even look like for a situation like that.
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/365696/who-thought-this-was-a-good-idea
For perk based challenges it's important to remember you don't need to get the challenge using the perk, just having it equipped.
I'm not familiar with the challenge offhand but if I'm correct in guessing it's something like "Make survivors scream X times while using Hex: Face the Darkness", it shouldn't actually matter how you make them scream, just so long as the perk is equipped at the time.
So screams caused by the Doctor, Infectious Fright, Make Your Choice, etc all count as long as Face the Darkness is in your loadout.
That's normally true, but for some reason this challenge is an exception and you do actually have to proc Face The Darkness.
That being said, it's still not hard, you just have to play a killer with consistent Undetectable or a really small Terror Radius (so like, Dead Rabbit/Monitor on Myers in Tier 2) to get consistent screams. You don't even have to throw, just play normally with those killers- I did it with Wraith and honestly, the perk was surprisingly useful.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352527#Comment_3352527
Usual criticism of RNG-based challenges? Nobody particularly likes the games where you go out to get it. Whack someone -> go stand on totem -> hit someone else if you need to -> hope nobody cleanses that totem.
Oh, could be, that'd make sense. Still, this one in particular really isn't that bad, I got it first try with Wraith since it's TR-based.
That one challenge for ending a match with a lit totem while using Undying was miserable for this, so I get where the sentiment comes from, but I don't think it really applies here.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352505#Comment_3352505
My point still stands though. Don't wait it out - Get Dead Harded, fool. Now, have fun catching up to me and fighting for the hit all over again. Wait it out - Get screwed anyway. If you don't wait, you give that survivor an easy DH. Period. You're assuming that there aren't that many people who run DH anyway. When it's multiple DHs in every game. If your lobbies aren't like this, I'm 100% happy for you. But most of us see way too many DHs to risk it. If you can't get at least another 15 seconds (3x15 seconds=45 seconds on gens) out of a successful DH, then that is a skill issue that. The first down needs to happen as soon as possible or the killer will not be able to slow the game. A bad early game for the killer typically means a bad game overall for the killer. You can't win against 3 people on gens and one in chase. Pretty sure I don't need to do the maths for you on this one because that should be obvious. The only option to win as killer is to slow down the survivors so that you can actually progress at a much faster pace (making up for the time you lost earlier) than the survivors do. If that happens too late it doesn't matter anymore (besides DH could still get the survivors out of a pickle in mid and end game) because the damage is already done.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352518#Comment_3352518
Sure. It's only Huntress. Let's completely ignore there are killers like, I don't know.... Trickster, Twins, Demogorgon, Wraith, Hillbilly (yes, many people actually stay injured so they don't go down in 1 hit), Myers (same issue with T3 lunge), Nurse, Blight, Knight, Hag, Spirit (many people do hit their DHs perfectly against a phasing Spirit), Pig, Oni, Pyramid Head, Nemesis, Artist and Wesker.
Apart from all the M1 killers that are screwed anyway because lunging is a no-go and waiting is also a no-go. Also have you counted how many perk slots each side has? 4 << 16 I'm pretty sure about that. If you need the exact mathematical proof I could probably provide you with that as well. Dedicating one perk to POTENTIALLY counter DH means you have only 3 perks left against the survivors' 12 (assuming everyone has DH or a different exhaustion perk). This also assumes they can't use their exhaustion perks at all, which, let's be real, never happens.
...Wait, why are you screwed if you wait it out? If you wait it out, then it doesn't do anything. There's no way you can get screwed by waiting it out unless they're at a pallet, and that's the area I agree it needs a nerf.
I'm not gonna go through that list and point out all the tricks and tools some of those killers have at their disposal, but rest assured they aren't all entirely screwed no matter what. Most of them would be equally screwed facing most of the other Exhaustion perks too, and that's why a lot of them have Exhaustion addons and access to at LEAST one anti-Exhaustion perk. If you're struggling with Exhaustion perks, and it's not a guaranteed lose/lose like DH at a pallet, there are tools for dealing with that.
That's not to say Dead Hard doesn't need any changes at all, of course. On top of the pallet interaction, I also personally feel you should get a severely diminished speed boost from a successful use of Dead Hard, so that it's most useful for staying in a loop and taking more risks rather than holding W and speeding away. That'd help most of the killers that can't avoid hitting into DH immensely too, even the ones that don't struggle as much as-is.
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I'm not sure I'm following. Why is it a bad idea to have a perk-related Archive mission? They've done that before.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352485#Comment_3352485
Why do people keep assuming every killer wants to swing as their attack? Some killers want to use their power, but their power is so telegraphed that survivors can dead hard it on reaction. With some killers, we are being told we should just completely stop using our power, and walk into point blank range so we can quick M1, but wait, because we're also told not to swing in point blank range because we're supposed to step back so we don't get 360'ed. So we're supposed to simultaneously be in point blank range, but also step back so we're not in point blank range.
The only killer off the top of my head who can't do anything about Dead Hard in a mechanical, bait-it-out way would be... Huntress, right?
And sure, maybe there's something to be said about a killer needing to dedicate parts of their loadout to it if they want to respond to Dead Hard, but it's not as though it's a widespread problem. Every other killer can either bait it, get the follow up hit super quickly, or is struggling for unrelated reasons- like Twins.
This is also why I've come to support giving Dead Hard less of a speed boost, too. That change would both bring it in line as the aggressive, stay-in-chase perk, and prevent it from being as damaging if a long-range killer like Huntress gets an attack blocked by it.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352485#Comment_3352485
Killers don't have to wait out DH. Absolutely. You know what else killers don't need to do? Mind game in loops, use their powers and bring perks and addons. Killers can just go into a match ready to lose. That's the issue with DH again. If you don't wait it out and swing, the survivor will use it and here you go giving them a third health state, which will make you lose the game if it happens frequently. If you do wait however and complain because it sucks (which, let's be honest, it does) you get told not to wait it out.
Your argument basically is: "A third health state doesn't matter anyway unless you're losing already." I'm sorry but again, BHVR want chases to go an average of 45 seconds. Assuming MMR works somewhat correctly the killer should not easily get a hit on you in 15 seconds and if they do that tells me everything I need to know. That the killer plays much better than you. Even I can do better than that and I'm far from being a good survivor. Most killers would be more than happy to get a hit every 40 seconds. Now let them all need 3 hits for every chase and see how that goes. Especially since you typically lose 2 gens for your first chase anyway, considering that you first need to make your way across the map and find a survivor before chasing them on a map that still has all its resources and after that pick them up, walk to the nearest hook and go through the hook animation. For the killer, the game typically begins a full minute after the survivors' (with very few exceptions). Having a perk that will cost them even more time is not helping.
See the problem here? The killer is basically being told to make the game harder on themself, which really only replaces one issue with another. Sure, I can simply lose every game just by eating every DH until I play against survivors that barely know what their objective is but when exactly am I allowed to have fun? Because this isn't fun.
Simply nerfing DH does not remove the issue. That's why I really want to see it nuked. That and to see the meta truly change, obviously.
That's a false equivalence and you know it, come on now.
There's a giant chasm of difference between "you don't have to bait out DH in the first chase every time if you don't want to" and "don't use your power". I never said you should eat every DH, I said that you don't have to play ultra safe respecting DH before you've even seen it. If you swing and they do have it, obviously at that point you start playing around it, but the argument is about needing to respect it before you've actually determined if it's in play, and you do not have to do that. It isn't intentionally setting yourself up to lose and it's barely even playing worse, it's a question of how safe you want to play.
Dead Hard isn't a guaranteed third health state, and that's the entire point of the perk. It's a potential third health state that should, in theory, only actually work if the skill expression breaks in the survivor's favour and they time it correctly. Removing the awful pallet play would already go leaps and bounds above where we are in making that statement actually true, and there are a number of other small tweaks it could get to bring it more in line with that vision + lower its pickrate as its versatility diminishes. If not, fair enough, rework it entirely- but there's only one reason to ever nuke a perk, and it doesn't apply here.
Side note, we already had the meta shift. Still seeing one or two perks doesn't invalidate that.
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While I do agree that Dead Hard could use another few small nerfs to curb its problematic elements, like forcing a hit into it at pallets and in a more general sense just to lower its pickrate, I have never understood the argument about how killers have become conditioned to respect it before it's even in play, because... if you don't like respecting it before you've seen it, just don't?
You don't have to wait. You can just swing on your first chase and see if they use Dead Hard, you're not gonna lose the match on the back of that unless you're already doing absolutely terribly and the first chase has lasted like four generators. Even if you do choose to wait and see (or more accurately, choose to bait and see), how is that different to survivors letting go of a generator as a hook happens to check for Pain Res? It's a slight loss in efficiency to check what your opponent is bringing, and to deny them the full value if they do have it.
If it's not bad design there, I don't think it's inherently bad design here, either. The ability to respect it before you see it is clearly fine, and there isn't anything actually forcing you to do so. If you don't wanna respect it, don't; swing instantly on your first chase, and then if they use DH, great, you know now and can play around it. If they don't, you've got a down, no harm no foul.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351650#Comment_3351650
Stealth is a thing vs noob killers. It's not once you get to a certain level of play. You pressure with things like yo-yo movement as Otz calls it where you pre-run when the killer shifts to your generator.
Every now and then you can make a stealth play but the maps are different without the thick fog. I will post a picture from a friend to show you.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TXW5Y8LENABL/dbd-old-fog.jpg
Tell me how you want to nerf DH so that it doesn't let you have three health states in a chase.
Again, the suggestion for stealth was to offset the downside that your suggestion would push onto a survivor. If that downside isn't offset, the perk is a net negative for you with absolutely zero upsides that couldn't be achieved by just choosing not to heal without the perk equipped. It really just seems like making it single use with extra steps, and if that is what you want, it'd be smoother for everyone to just say so.
I've already said how I'd nerf it, that's what the thread is about.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351846#Comment_3351846
Eh, I think it could do with being delayed, because I've said in these discussions why I think it needs a rework (it needs more than just numbers tuning for effectiveness without overdoing the 3gen potential, and we won't get more than that in three weeks from PTB release), and it's better to go back, redraw, and bring something actually finished than set out a massively underwhelming power from the get go that might be touched in, like, two years. This isn't even counting how there's inevitably going to be some stupid bug, because it's a video game release.
It's disingenuous to suggest that everyone saying this just wants a chase power.
I don't see why it needs a rework just to avoid it being too good at 3-gens. It's already only barely better at that than the average killer, and even that is only because of literally one element. So... numbers-buff the other elements, making the power better outside of 3-gens without affecting everywhere else.
Buff her stealth, buff her info (namely by taking info away from survivors), touch her Exposed only very barely, and give her one, maybe two addons basekit. That's not "full rework" level.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351833#Comment_3351833
I mean, a lot of people started from the also reasonable starting point of "this is dismally underpowered and taking the worst elements of several already flawed Killers". It's not that hard to arrive at 'don't release this until it's in a state that won't immediately require reworking'.
It's not like the only reasonable initial position to hold was 'I don't like it'. The power complaints aren't imaginary.
Yeah, but "the power is weak" doesn't require delaying the release and doesn't explain any of the other insane conclusions people have come to. Like, the reasonable conclusion is "so buff it", it's not as though it needs a ground-up rework or anything.
There are people who do think it needs a ground-up rework, but those tend to be the ones who automatically disregard anything that isn't a chase power anyway.
Even if you think this is the weakest killer power ever in the history of the game (which I would argue it very much isn't), the state this forum has reached is still shockingly exaggerated.
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I'm genuinely taken aback at how far the backlash has spun out on this chapter. We've gone from the reasonable starting point of this chapter just subjectively being not to the tastes of some people, and somehow we've arrived at people sincerely calling for them not to release it at all and coming up with conspiracy theories about how it's a last-minute replacement for a lost license despite how clearly implausible that is.
This is gonna go down as one of the most insane periods of this game's history, I'm sure of it. Genuinely shocking stuff.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350815#Comment_3350815
With the changes to iron will you either run IW or an exhaustion perk. People said I was dumb for running IW for 5 years and caught on to how good it was in year 6 when everyone was doing it.
So while I appreciate good stealth play - that era is removed from DBD. Without the mist to block sight past 20m stealth is just dead.
DH without a nerf to remove the "third health state" is never going to fix the problem.
...What?
Stealth isn't dead, one of the strongest builds in the game is a stealth build and there are a ton of serviceable stealth perks in the roster. That's a weird take, and it's one that doesn't even connect to the post you're responding to.
The point of bringing up stealth is that "playing hurt" is a net negative for you here. You're louder, easier to track, and only have what would be an inconsistent potential second health state to make up for it- which wouldn't even be a net positive if it were 100% reliable and uncounterable, that'd just be worse off than having two regular health states. Nobody would run that perk, and so it's not meaningfully different to just burying it for the sake of never wanting to see it again. Even with the built-in Iron Will and blood stifling effects of No Mither added on to your idea, I struggle to think of any reason someone would want to run this version of Dead Hard outside of doing Adept David challenges- it's just a net negative for them.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350794#Comment_3350794
-"how is that meaningfully different from repairing generators while healthy and having two health states? That just brings you back up to default again, it doesn't actually provide any value."
I am guessing you kind of missed the part where you can play hurt and not bother about healing. That's a lot of time saved. Also as you say it very clearly makes Resilience extremely easy to use.
If dead hard allows you to gain three health states when using it for any situation other than its first use then it is in a broken state. The legitimate problem with DH is that it can easily add +20 seconds in a chase because you have to hit someone three times. But sometimes it will allow you to loop for an extra 40 seconds.
That isn't fair in terms of what you get with any other exhaustion perk.
Hmm, maybe... but in order for that to be value and not still worse off than without the perk, you'd need to give it some form of stealth so you aren't super loud. Because otherwise, playing injured with occasional Endurance to maybe give you a second health state some of the time depending on what killer and killer build you're facing is... a net negative, regardless of how much time you're saving on healing- which isn't even that much, considering how quick and reliable healing is right now.
And at that point, a perk that makes you Broken in exchange for some stealth buffs + a secondary effect is treading on No Mither's toes, and I don't know that that's a good thing.
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Either Swamp map.
Objectively, I know there are worse maps for killer, and I know there are maps I struggle on more, but I just loathe the Swamp maps. They're far too dark, navigating those areas beneath the structures is a laborious nightmare, and they don't even really provide any aesthetics to enjoy to make up for it. The most positive thing I can say about them is that I do kinda like the big flock of crows that comes up from the ship, that's a nice detail.
Oh, and they're pretty good Trapper maps. That's it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350749#Comment_3350749
BHVR turned this into an us vs them situation, when they refused to comment at all about killer quality of life improvements and accessibility changes for over a year. BHVR could easily just say "hey, we're focusing on survivor quality of life improvements and accessibility changes, but we'll eventually do the same for killers". But we don't even get that! We get absolutely zero communication on whether or not they ever plan on helping killers with their quality of life and accessibility issues. For all we know, the plan is to look at the kill rate after a few months, and give killers generic buffs like "2% longer attack lunge", that moves the kill rate back where it should be, but doesn't help the killer experience at all.
Is this really a unreasonable request? Is it really unreasonable to request for BHVR to make a simple comment that they will eventually get to killer quality of life improvements and accessibility changes? They don't even need to commit on a timeframe. Just a simple "we care about you too" post. Because we can't even get that.
Meanwhile, survivors get an improved HUD, an additional buff to the HUD, promises of a visual terror radius, overnerfed nurse, and overnerfed eruption.... and just silence for killers. Did the eruption nerf really need to happen before the next major perk change patch, so it could happen at the same time as survivor perk changes? Is anyone concerned that I'm getting 10 second killer queues in the middle of the day, which used to be completely unheard of?
I'm not seeing anything relevant to the discussion here, so I think we'll have to go our separate ways from this point.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350778#Comment_3350778
"-What would be the point of bringing Dead Hard in that scenario, though?"
You could play hurt and still have two health states for every chase with a skillful DH. Also you will have three health states in the first chase. This would allow you to blast generators while hurt and potentially not be punished for it.
-"At least No Mither gives you free Iron Will and infinite Unbreakable."
But look how popular that perk is - some survivors will quit immediately on seeing a team member using it. No Mither is sitting on 0.41% usage.
Right, but... how is that meaningfully different from repairing generators while healthy and having two health states? That just brings you back up to default again, it doesn't actually provide any value. The only application I could maybe see is Resilience plays, but if you want that action speed, there are better ways of getting it.
As for how popular No Mither is... yeah. Proving my point. No Mither actually provides value for this tradeoff, and people don't use it. There would be literally no reason to bring a perk that just makes you Broken but you have a second health state some of the time if you're super on point with timing and the killer makes no effort to stop it.