jesterkind
jesterkind
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@WesCravenFan said:
Changing the Killer POV affects Survivor stealth, which is part of the core gameplay. If you want the Shadowborn benefit, pony up the perk slot.
How would a higher FOV affect stealth? Being able to see more at the edges of the screen shouldn't really make too much of a difference if you're standing behind something, right?
I could see some edge cases where survivors could skate by without actually being stealthed because the killer's line of sight didn't quite include them, but that's hardly a "core gameplay" thing, that's an edge case. Certainly the argument could be made that if you don't want to be caught, you should be stealthy with actual cover and some supporting perks, instead of relying on the killer's FOV not quite catching you.
I'd be interested to hear your reasons for this take, sincerely.
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I said this in another thread, but there's absolutely no reason they'd revert or scale back the nerfs to Call of Brine or Overcharge. Those had (very very good) reasons to be nerfed that are independent of the healing changes, and CoB is still gonna be a decent enough perk afterwards too- just not a regression perk anymore.
If they were to revert any changes, it'd be to Pain Resonance only, and they did choose to buff that at least. Apparently they had more of an issue with killers cycling survivors on the same Pain Res than I did, which I suppose is fair.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395554#Comment_3395554
CoB is not a viable information perk. If you just wanted information there's already a park that does the same thing better.
Which perk do you mean? I can think of two that give similar info to CoB, Surveillance and Gearhead, and I wouldn't say either of them are strictly better than the other two.
It seems a lot more like personal preference, there.
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394779#Comment_3394779
No. It's simple math. Let's say you ARE running brutal or whatever. It would still take roughly 4 seconds out of your way to walk up to a gen and kick it.
Since killer seconds are inherently 4x more valuable than survivor seconds, you'd need at least 16 seconds of survivor slowdown to break even.
With only Eruption, you almost never get that.
You get 2.5% from the kick and 10% from Eruption on your next down, for a total of 12.5%. That's 11 seconds of survivor slowdown. That's a losing strategy. In order to break even, you'd need that gen to regress for 22 seconds. No decent survivor group is going to leave the gen alone for 22 seconds.
Which was why new Eruption is only good as part of a build. It needs to be combined with a CoB to get the bang for your buck. In the same scenario, with CoB, you're breaking even in 11 seconds, which would be much more feasible.
So there's a few issues here.
First is that this idea that "killer time is 4x more valuable than survivor time" is often used as an inherent truth, something that will always apply in every situation, and that just isn't true. Any survivor that is taken out of the action - slugged, hooked, dead - modifies that number, and in the case of dead survivors specifically, modifies it permanently. That throws your simple math out of whack already, because you can't actually break it down to abstract numbers like that- it's always going to be fluid and changing how much you can afford to spend on any specific action at any specific moment.
Second is that the natural pressure gained from the down that procs Eruption is being disregarded. Even setting aside that your specific numbers are entirely wrong because they cannot be that specific, the fact of the matter is that the generators you kicked are damaged and regressing, and two survivors cannot be working on them to make up for that: one is on the hook, and one is going for the save. This doesn't matter too much for the regressing part, since base regression numbers are pretty bad, but it does mean it takes a little longer before that 10% is made back up again on all affected generators, which means it's longer before they exceed past that 10%.
Slowdown isn't really supposed to 'break even', unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that. It's just meant to make generators take longer in terms of real, literal numbers, to give you more time to generate natural pressure through downs and hooks. If you're playing a killer that can tag multiple generators with Eruption (since it shines best when you damage more generators than survivors can instantly start fixing again), that gives you time to get downs and hooks to slow the game down further. That's why old Eruption was so busted- it was one of the few perks that rivalled the kind of slowdown you get from hooks, since survivors who actually got hit with Incapacitated were completely ground to a halt. That's not what slowdown perks are meant to do, or at least shouldn't be what they're meant to do.
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394623#Comment_3394623
Because the time it takes you to walk up and kick the gen isn't worth the 10% you get.
That entirely depends on how long it takes you to walk up and kick the gen. Multiple killers and multiple addons/perks can lessen that time, thus making the spike of regression on multiple generators later much more effective.
Any time a perk requires even the slightest amount of thought and consideration for its use, it's declared useless and nuked, I swear.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394618#Comment_3394618
You do realize that very few people continue to regularly log in to play killer right?
If there is no viable gen regression then what happens if a big chunk of killers like me who have been here since the beginning just stop playing.
It would be one thing if they said : oh by the way all gen rush perks are getting the same nerf as CoB/OC with a 70% reduction in effect AND toolboxes are now sabotage only AND we made all the healing slow.
What is going to stop the gen rush? There's literally nothing viable left and the devs have done nothing to stop the ~40 second generator repair rush with Hyperfocus.
We know there is a massive imbalance of survivor to killer ratio thanks to the BP bonuses. We know it was the same before the 6.1 meta shake up that was supposed to make more people want to play killer. We actually have leaked data from people pinging the DBD servers where in some cases we had 45 killers or fewer in queue with 4500 survivors.
Killer has always been kept one step away from being miserable. But they can't just destroy every viable gen regression perk if they want people to keep playing killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394623#Comment_3394623
-"Why do people keep saying Eruption is dead?"
Because it went to 10% reduction and the survivors could immediately start working on the generator again. Previously it lost 10% immediately and then it would lose another 20% while that player could not work on it.
When you look at player usage for Eruption it's down in the 6% range but it was supposed to become meta - oops they missed the mark.
-"you just have to be playing a killer that can cycle between those gens"
If DBD is moving to the point where only Blight and Nurse are viable then I'm out.
I was barely hanging on playing older killers. I was still having fun vs most of the 5000-10000 hour survivors I played against as "weaker" killers with the limited regression we had left.
Sure, if the bar for usable is overpowered, then Eruption is dead. However, I would argue the bar for usable should actually sit at "usable", and so Eruption is clearly still good.
I literally cited Wraith. Not Nurse and Blight. That's also just for Eruption, not for every slowdown perk.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394615#Comment_3394615
-"You've got Jolt, Deadlock, and Eruption. All solid perks"
Deadlock has never been in the shrine so some people don't have it. It's functional but that's about it.
Joly only works with another strong gen regression perk.
Eruption is completely dead and it's just wrong to imply otherwise.
Sure, but some people aren't gonna have any one specific perk, even if it's been in the shrine. If the question is what players who only have access to some perks will use, I can't really answer that without knowing what DLCs they have, y'know?
Jolt does work on its own, but yes, it's better with other regression perks.
Why do people keep saying Eruption is dead? 10% regression on every gen you kick with no range requirement is perfectly serviceable, you just have to be playing a killer that can cycle between those gens. Wraith is my best for it, personally, but anyone with mobility or a teleport can do it.
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394569#Comment_3394569
Lmfao.
What else we got? Jolt? A situational 8% that only procs sometimes, is hugely map dependant and is easily countered by A) jumping in a locker, B) running away from active gens or C) forcing the killer to use m2.
Deadlock? Deadlock has always been mediocre. Because it doesn't ACTUALLY do anything. That survivor you kicked off of one gen can go work on another. Deadlock had a little bite to it when other regression was in play, because it gave you time to get to the gen and slow it down. But now? It does diddly squat. What are you going to do? Kick it for 2.5%? Ooooooh. Scary.
Pop? Gutted. Situational. Usually only gives you about 10%, which is 9 seconds... when it took you that long just to walk to the gen and kick it.
Same goes for Eruption. The regression isn't worth the time investment.
Corrupt? It's decent, for the first 30 seconds. Then it's just a dead slot.
Ruin? Dead.
CoB? Dead
Overcharge? Dead.
Pain Res? Dead.
Our new meta is freaking Jolt and Deadlock. Two VERY mediocre perks that were niche peeks 6 months ago because they weren't that good. Now they're the "best we have."
So! You've got Jolt, Deadlock, and Eruption. All solid perks, to varying degrees; Eruption can be a little killer-situational and Jolt can be a lot map-dependant, but they're pretty solid and reliable picks that you can depend on to give you value within a match. There's also Corrupt, as you acknowledged, that gives you some pretty good early-game pressure from denying the gens survivors spawn on.
Since self-healing got moderately-to-severely gutted, Sloppy Butcher is going to be pretty solid on the killers who can apply it- and most of the ones that can't have addons for it anyway.
Dead Man's Switch is surprisingly good even on its own, at least if you're playing a mobile or ranged killer. Might not be as good for the likes of Clown and Trapper, but I run it on Wraith and see pretty noticeable value.
Gift of Pain is decent, if not amazing. Pairs well with other forms of slowdown, so maybe don't run it on its own but do keep it in mind.
Plaything/Pentimento remains a very good pick if you're willing to invest in it, probably the best active slowdown there is. That's for generators being done slower, mind, not regressing or being blocked or any other form of slowdown.
Basically, if you put even the slightest amount of thought towards considering your options, understand that what killer you play should affect what perks you bring into a trial, and accept that perks should only give you windows to generate proper slowdown via hooks with your own skill, there's plenty of good perks left. This is only slowdown, too, you're going to want chase and information perks as well.
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Why on earth would they undo the changes to CoB/Overcharge? Those are the perks that actually cause a problem worth fixing, if they undid any killer perk changes it'd be for Pain Res- and they did buff that, at least.
As for "leaving killers gen defence", of course they are. They only touched three perks, that's not all the slowdown in the game.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393872#Comment_3393872
And again with the "CoB and OC was only useful in 3 genning". CoB + OC was the only way to regress gen over time reliably. You can use them in any gen kicking build without even pretending to do 3 genning and still get value from it. They reduced the total time for regressing a gen from 6 whole minutes to 2:40, making you able to punish survivors for not completing generators fast as if they just leave a gen almost done alone by the time they come to it, it would have lost most of it's progress.
I don't know who the hell said that for you people to repeat it non stop, but saying that having more regression is not useful in any other way is nuts. And now that they are nerfed to the ground, regression over time is no more. And now that the best insta-regression perk is nerfed so you need to have a lot of luck to get value from it, insta-regression have also get a huge hit.
This was fine before because they would also nerf the healing, but now altruistic healing won't be nerfed so it is definitely not fine and they should have reverted at least part of the regression nerfs.
But like I said, we will have to see what happens when the patch comes out.
I didn't say "only useful", I said only really strong, because that's true. CoB/OC could be used for regular gen kick builds, but they aren't even the best perks for doing that considering how easy it is to tap a generator and undo the regression. That means that the perks shine best when you're harassing survivors away from touching the generators, which means you're sticking to a close area, which means... 3-gen.
If you wanted to just control generators with dry kicking, you'd be picking something like CoB/Eruption, which is still going to be somewhat useful. That's only if you wanted to kick generators, of course- multiple other slowdown builds exist that don't rely on kicking, or on regress-over-time. The latter of which has never truly been the best way of getting slowdown outside of 3-gen stuff.
I feel like a lot of people think the only good way of getting slowdown is CoB/OC or Pain Res/DMS, lol.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393847#Comment_3393847
How is it fair that Eruption, Call of Brine, and Overcharge get absolutely nerfed into the ground, where I'm removing all of them from my perk loadouts.... but it's ok that the most complained about survivor perk still gets to be a solid choice in perk loadouts?
This is the second meta shakeup, where people were hoping for a massive nerf that will remove the perk from the meta. And this meta shakeup was worse, because it gave us false hope for a week, just to un-nerf the perk by a huge amount.
It's fair that Call of Brine and Overcharge are nerfed because they were only really strong in 3-gen scenarios, end of statement. Though, it is worth mentioning that CoB is still a decent perk, it's just an info perk instead of a regression perk now.
It wouldn't be fair for Eruption to get absolutely nerfed into the ground, so it's a good thing that hasn't happened.
I can't read people's minds, but I suspect a lot of survivors will drop Dead Hard since it's so much weaker now. If I'm wrong, fair enough, but the perk's still been made much weaker, so I won't complain.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393800#Comment_3393800
Its extremely rare that I see a survivor use dead hard more than 3 times per match, in current DBD. The new DH basically just reduces the average number of activations from 3 to 2.
Compare this to the original PTB version, where survivors could get 0 activations per match if they didn’t safely unhook someone. That was such a bigger nerf than the current version, which automatically gives 2 activations per match.
It lowers the average and maximum uses to two, staggers both uses to guarantee they're hooked between them, and it guarantees neither of those uses are in that survivor's first chase.
Yes, this is technically stronger than the PTB version, but it's substantially weaker than live, which is the comparison that really matters.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393800#Comment_3393800
I believe you don't understand it if you don't realize that "two uses of Dead Hard per survivor" AKA "one use per chase" is what you have to deal with most of the time even now. Again, they just removed the use they would have when you have your first chase with them, after that you either deny it by triggering the basekit Endurance on unhook so Deep Wound doesn't allow them to use it, or it is back to dealing with it exactly as it is now. So, it would make tunneling the unhooked survivor if you have the chance just the better option over going after the unhooker.
And it is not a "silly view to take" when you have to chose between trigger Endurance on unhook so you get your next hit guaranteed or letting them get DH and be able to protect themselves from a hit whenever it's more beneficial for them (for example, in a pallet). I mean, I think is a pretty good strategic decision to make.
And I think is not a big mistake to say that coordinated SWF that can know exactly the best moment to spend time healing would benefit from being able to heal someone in 4 - 8 seconds, again, being able to reset 3 survivors in 12 seconds while the killer is busy chasing their looper. Again, a pretty good strategic decision to make.
But yeah, we will have to see how all this thing goes, because in paper it just changed from a patch that established a good start to balance the game for both sides to yet again another killer nerf.
Except that - on live - if someone uses Dead Hard and you drop chase on them, they'll have Dead Hard back by the time you chase them again, no hook required. With this change, if they get a successful Dead Hard and you have to drop the chase, that's it, no more Dead Hard until they're hooked again. Right now, on live, survivors don't just have two opportunities to use Dead Hard- that might be as many as they successfully hit because the perk is relatively easy to counter outside pallets, but they have many more opportunities than just two, especially with them staggered to be between hooks. It's also worth not glossing over the fact that survivors cannot use it in their first chase, which is a pretty noticeable change from how it is right now.
As for hitting them to trigger Deep Wounds, sure, if you're going to tunnel them, but there really isn't any reason to do that as a general rule. The only reason you would, that'd be relevant to this topic anyway, is if you're stubbornly committed to refusing to ever see a Dead Hard proc, and like... why? When the perk can be used off cooldown every 40 seconds, that's frustrating, that's an omnipresent threat in chase that can get on a killer's nerves. When the perk can be used once per hook, that's barely worth worrying about, frankly.
This patch is, bluntly, not a killer nerf. Yes, Pain Resonance being made a little less consistent is a nerf to killers, no doubt about it, but everything else is either a neutral + necessary change for most killers like the CoB/Overcharge nerfs, or actively good, like the complete removal of fast and reliable self healing. This is an overreaction.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393695#Comment_3393695
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393732#Comment_3393732
Pain Res is totally and utterly dead. It depends so much in RNG (as now you have to be lucky on the spawn of the hooks as before, but also get lucky that the first time you hook every survivor the gen with the max progress is not just 5%, making the regression almost useless) that doesn't matter how strong the perks is.
The nerf to DH is not "gigantic", it's ok at much and would only accomplish more people tunneling and camping, as now the best way to deny a DH is to hit the survivor the moment they are unhooked to trigger Deep Wound so they can not use it. That, or simply make them die in the first hook. The only advantage is knowing you don't have to worry about it in the first chase, but after that you would need to do those strategies nobody seems to like or deal with it anyway.
A coordinated SWF being able to reset all the team damage in 12 seconds (as 100% bonus of 2 survivors healing another is 4 c/s AKA 4 seconds to heal someone) is not "a little scary", is busted. I don't know who started this trend of "altruistic healing is not the problem" but they are so wrong, specially with SWF in mind. Also, the "setup" is spending 14 seconds while the other survivors do their thing that would pay themselves if the killer don't snuff the boon. And you can't compare We'll Make it with it for that exact reason, as CoH would stay in place all the time when it is needed, so you can choose the appropriate moment (when the killer is busy chasing someone, for example) to get the befits from it.
I don't agree with OP in the "killers would stop playing" part, but saying this patch ended being a huge nerf to killers when they basically destroyed regression and buffed altruistic healing is just denying the evidence.
I genuinely don't understand this idea that new Dead Hard incentivises tunnelling so you "don't have to deal with it". Deal with what? A maximum two uses of Dead Hard, staggered between hook states? Those uses that, also, weren't changed in any way so all the current counters are still very much in place? That still inflict Exhaustion, so most chases are going to be a little easier because they don't have other Exhaustion perks?
It's such a wild take to me. It's like everyone's so blindly mad at Dead Hard they've forgotten what the perk actually does and that a single use of Dead Hard really isn't actually all that much of a problem. You only have to tunnel in response to Dead Hard if you're blindly and doggedly committed to never seeing it used ever, and that's just kind of a silly view to take. Straight up, this new change means you can basically stop trying to prevent Dead Hard at all, because they'll get a maximum of two dropped chases from it- and those two dropped chases require being hooked twice to achieve them.
As for coordinated SWFs and new Circle of Healing, we'll have to see. Like I said, it's not as though that perk is the only way they could get stupid fast heal times, so at least now they have to be grouped up in order to do it- that is, no matter what way you slice it, better than before. If it's too much, fair enough, CoH will have to get yet another nerf.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393720#Comment_3393720
Interesting. Because in my experience you just swapped killer and survivor in queue times (most of the time during a day. Evenings I will grant you killer queues are better and incentives represent that too
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393732#Comment_3393732
I seriously doubt super coordinated SWF will EVER use CoH. +100% speed means 8s less per heal. That's not bad on face value, but if you take into account travel time, it means that if any of 2 survivors need to move for longer then 4s (4s there + 4s back), then the net result is pure negative (provided one heal is necessary, if 2 heals need to be done, then it's 8s).
But this totally disregards booning time, finding totem and possibility that it will be squashed. You at minimum need 2heals 0 travel time to at least theoretically make up the time of just setting up the boon. That's quite an investment.
The only group where CoH would make sense is no comms SWF or maybe soloQ - and both of these just because of aura reading inclusion (something that coordinated SWF just don't need).
Overall, when things settle down (people try the new perk out a few times), I seriously doubt the perk will get higher usage then say reactive healing has right now
I may be giving "familiarity" a little too much weight here- there are certainly things people will keep using through nerfs just because they're already used to using it and got comfortable with it, but that only goes so far. I suspect a lot of people will try to keep using CoH, but the numbers will go down over time.
Either way, I seriously don't think altruistic healing got better, I think it just didn't get harder the way it was 'supposed' to on the PTB.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393695#Comment_3393695
This has ultimately just made solo q even weaker, and SWF will not be as affected as they somehow "COMPENSATED" (why the heck do they compensate at all lol) self healing nerfs by making altruistic healing lot better.
The only real positive is ultimately dead hard and just dead hard, calling it huge positive would be ridiculous.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393698#Comment_3393698
Ah yes, the bonus that goes 100% on survivor when survivor que takes 5 minutes and killer que takes 10 seconds.
I don't know that they did make altruistic healing all that much better, personally.
100% bonus on CoH is a little scary, but survivors already had access to that exact number on We'll Make It, which arguably has less requirement- it's a timer after an unhook, but that's arguably not as restrictive as a specific radius that requires setup. We'll have to see how it settles on live, but I have a suspicion the only people who are gonna use CoH to any huge effect are going to be super coordinated SWF types, and it's not as though they only have that option for getting that value if they want it.
Besides, how would that translate to killers leaving? A handful of matches may be a little harder, that's worst case scenario, and all other matches have the very impactful medkit + CoH nerfs.
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So... just to be clear, killers are going to change roles and leave the game because... the game got better for them?
Don't get me wrong, I'm also kind of irked that we're not getting the cool healing slowdown idea from the PTB, but the death of reliable, safe self-healing and a gigantic nerf to Dead Hard are cause enough to celebrate. Hell, it's not as though Pain Res is going to be dead after this patch- old Pop four times a match isn't bad, it's just weaker than what it currently is.
It's too easy to get blinded by the changes from PTB to live, but if you look at this patch as a change from current live, it's very clearly a huge positive.
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Grim Embrace.
I don't understand why it has an Obsession mechanic- if it just showed all survivor auras, it'd be much more usable, since you'd be able to flush out at least one of the stealthing survivors trying to wait out the block duration. It's a good idea for a perk in theory, but that one limitation really holds it back.
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Ruin and Pop were changed in 6.1.0, so that intent is pretty clear- people were complaining about a stale meta and asking for a meta shift, apparently a bunch of them just didn't know what that entails.
Thanataphobia I think shouldn't be on these lists, because it's not as though that perk was good before it got nerfed. It was absurdly obnoxious + in need of a change on Legion and Plague, and useless on everyone else. Much like another perk you listed, it's kind of just badly designed and needed a quick change to curb a problem. Both Thana and the other perk, Overcharge, really should be reworked at some point, but I empathise with wanting to get the problem out of the way first and then dealing with that later when they have time.
Call of Brine and Overcharge were both nerfed for the same reason: 3-gens. Nobody really likes 3-gens, they're not even that fun to obsessively defend from the killer perspective, so this is a no-brainer. Overcharge I've already covered, but Call of Brine isn't nerfed into irrelevancy, it's just not a regression perk anymore. It'll still be a perfectly serviceable generator information perk.
Pain Resonance is the only one where there's really a leg to stand on regarding it being nerfed as a bad thing, because I personally think it shouldn't be nerfed if they're not going through with the healing slowdown from the PTB. That being said, old Pop four times per match on a hook action is perfectly usable, it's not exactly going to be worthless once this patch hits live.
What I'm trying to demonstrate here is that it's easy to act as though the developers have it out for generator regression specifically if you just list all the nerfs that have happened over the past however long, but the fact is that live balance games are going to be changing things, and considering how high-profile regression perks tend to be, they're going to get changed more frequently. That's just how balancing works, it's a push and pull- plenty of killer stuff gets buffed too, and plenty of survivor stuff gets nerfed.
Lastly, generator regression doesn't need to be strong for the game's health, there just needs to be some kind of slowdown available on the killer side. Right now, after all these nerfs, there's plenty- enough that you definitely don't have to tunnel someone out, that's just easier than playing properly.
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This is strictly fewer uses than on the PTB, what on earth are you talking about?
It's a maximum of two uses per survivor, and never in the first chase. If anything this might be too big of a nerf, but we'll see how it goes.
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The negatives of even one person having an epileptic fit because of flashlights far outstrip the negatives of being kinda bummed you can't flashlight moonwalk anymore.
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Knock Out maybe, it's got a pretty questionable effect, but there's truly nothing wrong with Head On. It can be played around, and it takes some dedication to see legitimate results from it- plus it's an exhaustion perk, so anyone who wants to use it is not using Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, or Lithe.
Head On is a fun perk, and I'm saying that from the perspective of the killer side. I think it should stay.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3391462#Comment_3391462
I know its not question for me, but i git triggered by the phrase "nobody ever".
Here is mine
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360072/what-about-change-in-sacrifices#latest
And there was also other suggestions.
Like each kill increases gen repair speed (going with another thing - each repaired gen decreases gen repair speed) which would highly reward killers for not killing but just hooking. This one was explained in more details.
And others.
Its definitely not "nobody ever"
People talk about changing balance for encouraging hooks over kills, but OP (and a few others I've seen) want to change the win condition specifically- that I've never seen any suggestions for.
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How exactly would you do that, though?
I'm legitimately curious- I see a lot of talk about "hooks over kills" but nobody ever seems to go into detail as to what that means. What changes would you suggest to bring about this shift in win condition?
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A lot of very good points have already been brought up in the replies here, but I think something that hasn't been addressed as much is that you're comparing a class of perks to one perk within a class.
Dead Hard and various Exposed perks do have a lot of things in common; except for killer powers like the chainsaw lads and Legion's fifth Feral Slash, and a few funky addons like the Iri Hatchet (which, side note, the Honing Stone doesn't count, that just takes you from injured to dying- the trap is the part that takes you from healthy to injured, so it is two separate sources of damage), they all work by inflicting the status effect "Exposed". This is similar to Dead Hard, which inflicts the status effect "Endurance".
The thing is, Endurance perks are a thing, and none of them are as complained about as Dead Hard. Survivors even have an Endurance addon, the Styptic Agent addon for the medkit. Futzing with health states is a very established mechanic on both sides with a dedicated status effect multiple things can apply, it's not just Dead Hard that gives the pseudo-health state of Endurance.
So, why is Dead Hard getting all the flak and not other Endurance, or even Exposed perks for that matter? Because they're all strictly limited either in number of uses (EG, Styptic Agent being single-use and consuming your medkit, or Off The Record only applying twice per game) or in applicability (EG, Endurance cancelling when you touch a generator). Dead Hard isn't necessarily different, it has its requirements and limitations, but there's no denying that it's far and away the most consistently useful and usable source of Endurance.
If an Exposed perk were as frequently activated and consistently useful as Dead Hard, I'd say that would be a problem. In fact, we basically saw that with Starstruck Nurse, and that was a big enough problem that Nurse had to be made incapable of using the Exposed effect at all. It's slightly different in that Exposed isn't equally useful across all killers - Nurse having access to it was nightmarishly OP, but something like infinite Tier 3 Myers is really only 'decent' all things considered - but the core of the idea is still the same. The status effect can be balanced, but not without serious restrictions.
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I'd say Legion are pretty balanced at the moment. Their addon pass semi-recently helped a surprising amount- they've got decent variety in builds that can help them in a variety of ways, and keeping survivors injured with their power makes the regular M1 plays a bit easier since you only have to smack someone once. To say nothing of deleting Dead Hard if you just chase the person you hit in Frenzy, lol.
Not sure why so many people think they're about to get stronger when you already don't wanna heal against them, though. I don't see them changing much with the upcoming midchapter.
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@DBDVulture said:
If you deleted every perk on your killer list except BBQ , BM and Terminus it might take survivors a month or longer before they noticed.
If you want to seriously make hexes viable then allow them to be rekindled at any unbroken totem. The only problem then becomes Devour Hope which if you ask me should be reworked completely.
Change BoP to turn off your red light (at all times) and give you undetectable when within 16m of a generator.
Change Shattered Hope to force the survivor that starts as the obsession to play the trial broken (with no other effect).
Change Brutal strength to allow you to break 1 pallet with a lunge attack every 60 seconds.
Change Hysteria to have no time limit; if you are hurt then you are oblivious.
Change Leverage to make the tokens permanent if the person you just hooked was not the same as the last person you hooked.
Change Predator so that you see survivor auras when they are exhausted.
Regarding Predator- I like that idea but I think it just being a flat binary of "Exhausted = Aura Read" would be a bit too strong. Remember that killers have ways of inflicting Exhaustion, so it's not just a partial counter to Exhaustion perks on the survivor side- with no restrictions a killer can slap on Predator and Fearmonger for constant and infallible generator information, and that seems like a combo that might be a little too much.
Maybe a minimum-range requirement to make it useful for chase more than for constant mapwide tracking?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385020#Comment_3385020
"Ranked mode" ratings are usually what the matchmaking system uses to match you against others when playing ranked matches. So yeah, it is showed to you. Other thing is that what it is showed to you and what the matchmaking system really uses isn't exactly the same. But any PvP competitive game I can think of in many genres (Overwatch, MTG Arena, Tekken, etc.) shows your current "rank". That rank in DbD right now would be MMR.
And the funny thing with "lobby dodging" is that it already happens by something that should not only be not important, but doesn't means anything more that you play a lot the game: The prestige level. So, if the problems would be the same, why not show the MMR instead of or at the same time?
Well, yes, but the number used for your Quick Play matches in those games is also MMR. It's the same system, just with slightly different parameters for the ranked mode- alongside ranked mode also having more game restrictions to enforce more competitive and 'serious' play. DBD doesn't have a ranked mode, it has a regular queue, and that's not the kind of queue that typically shows your matchmaking numbers.
And while I agree with you in broad strokes, I don't think "this bad thing happens already sometimes so it happening more is fine" is really a great direction to go in. People shouldn't lobby dodge based on prestige, partially because it isn't a reliable indicator of anything but mostly because lobby dodging is bad for the matchmaking system.
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@Steakdabait said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384915#Comment_3384915
Are you really against letting people see their own skill level in game?
Most games don't show you the inner workings of their matchmaker, is the thing, so it's not that I'm against something expected, I just don't see a reason to do something *un*expected, if that makes sense.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384915#Comment_3384915
There is good reasons to show not only to us, but in lobbies before the game the MMR of players.
Seeing your MMR could help you understand how good are you in the game and to do things to improve based on it. If you get your MMR to go up, then you are doing well. If it is going down, you are doing something wrong. If you can't rise it more, it is time to really learn the ropes and see where you are failing. And as you said, maybe you don't really mind how much is it, but want to simply know.
If it is shown in the lobbies, it can help have an idea of what to expect from your partners / rivals and prepare for it. It's not the same to confront 4 low MMR that a team with 3 high ranked survivors. If the killer your going against have high MMR, you can expect him to be hard to loop. If one of your survivors have low MMR, you know you can't expect him to do some advanced things like coordinate to do an unhook.
In short, it is an useful information to have that can help you get better and / or know what you can expect in a match. In fact, DbD is one of the few games with ranking systems I can think of that doesn't show you and your rivals ranking and I don't really know why.
I suppose, though I think in practice that's going to result in a lot less preparation and a lot more 'leave lobby'. There is some limited application in preparing for a tough match, but in general your matches shouldn't have enough variance in your opponent's skill for that to matter all that much, I feel.
It's funny you say DBD is the only game you can think of that doesn't show you your matchmaker number, because I can't think of any game that does. Usually that's the domain of ranked mode ladders, regular matchmaking systems don't really show you that kind of data.
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Can I ask why?
I've never really seen a good argument for it beyond a general curiosity or explicit desire to be mad at perceived mismatches, neither of which are really compelling. However, that doesn't mean no such arguments exist!
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I feel like most of the time you see people making that argument, though, it's specifically in response to people making out like the game is impossible and you're helpless unless you do X or if you go against Y. In that context, it's a perfectly reasonable argument- it points out that the game used to be a lot worse for that role, and it wasn't as though things were impossible then, let alone when you have far more leeway and tools these days.
I do think the argument is a little overly simplistic, but it's not entirely wrong.
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Healing and unhooking are still going to be very important, they're not things you should just give up on doing- unhooking especially, you should definitely still go for unhooks??
Anyway, bringing stuff that heals altruistically is going to be more valuable going forward, and you're still going to be able to bring a good medkit for two reliable self-heals if you're playing in solo queue. Same with Inner Healing, that'll net you a few heals per game for those scenarios you need them more.
It's really as simple as just changing your approach, the sky is not falling.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382395#Comment_3382395
Let's not intentionally confuse two different situations. Legacy ruin was changed in response to complaints, but 6.1 ruin was because the devs picked the top picked perks and slammed the nerf bat around. If survivors got changes because of complaints in that patch, they would've done something to functionally reduce camping in 6.1. That was, and continues to be, a much larger complaint than ruin was at that time. It's like trying to say self care got nerfed that patch because people complained (they didn't, the pick rate got it nerfed).
Dead Hard was nerfed in 6.1 exactly to the community request: dead hard for distance was directly targeted. Killers got exactly what they asked for, it just wasn't what they wanted. The complaints came back after several months when survivors adapted and now we're getting nerf round 2 entirely because of complaints again.
It's worth mentioning and remembering that all of the nerfs in 6.1 were a direct response to complaints and feedback- just not complaints about any specific perk. The reason 6.1 happened is because of complaints about a stale meta, not because those perks were chosen solely for having a high pickrate or any other more arbitrary and senseless reason.
So, yes, Self Care was nerfed in that patch because of complaints- so long as we understand "because of complaints" to be acting on community feedback for the health of the game, at least.
(Also worth remembering that 6.1 was the anti-tunnel implementation as well, so specifically highlighting a lack of camping fixes is a little misleading- whether you think it was successful or not, there was an attempt at addressing complaints of base-game scale rather than just perks, same for the generator time increase and the other killer buffs.)
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383025#Comment_3383025
CoH does't boost self healing speed in the update.
And just like Heal boost exist, heal de buffs also exist for killer.
You can't have healing take half a gen.
This just buffs camping and tunneling.
48s, this is what you need to heal and save someone that is camping. How is that ok?
Should you really just say, bring perks to fix a game issue? That the devs are creating
Yes, that's why I asked if you meant your change as the only healing change. If so, Circle of Healing would still be a problem, and if not it still leaves the other options.
So, buffing camping I get (even if I'm on the fence about agreeing), because it makes resetting require better timing, but how does it buff tunnelling? If someone's being tunnelled they don't have the ability to heal, because they're being chased straight away.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382998#Comment_3382998
What do you mean, i just want altruism to not die.
Whatever they decide to do besides the basic is with them.
The healing changes as they are will break the game, there are way too many interactions and problems that arrive from their change.
Well, Botany or Circle of Healing would already bring that number back down to 16 seconds (if I understand the maths right, which I may not), which means anything in addition to that - like speed addons, or using both together, or one of the lesser-used healing speed perks - will bring heals right back down to faster than someone else healing you. That's not hard, it's not difficult to achieve or unreliable or even all that limited, so while the problem gets slightly better with this change, it's by no means fixed.
Altruistic healing is not going to die, even without changes. There are tons of tools for healing your teammates faster, you'll be able to perform altruistic heals perfectly well.
However, I do think that nerfing the altruism numbers on medkits is a bit of a mistake, I think that actually buffing those numbers might encourage more altruistic plays with medkits- which combined with all the other tools for altruistic heals, should get the desired effect more frequently.
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Is that as the only healing changes made at all? Because that wouldn't stop the possibility of very accessible and reliable self-heals that are faster + more efficient than someone else healing you, medkits are only one big element of a larger problem rather than the problem in and of themselves.
Which, in turn, wouldn't achieve the goal of making injuries more impactful and making healing a timesink you choose to invest in rather than a quick formality.
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Well put!
It's also worth highlighting that these changes, while necessary, are going to a PTB for testing. They can and likely will adjust some of the harsher nerfs if they turn out to be too punishing, fine-tuning is very much a thing that can happen.
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The thing about this tactic is that it only functions if the change you want to make is already unreasonable and unfair, otherwise there's no point to the misdirection. Since what they landed on for Eruption, your main example, was very reasonable and fair - almost the best change it could've been - they didn't benefit from the supposed intentional escalation beforehand.
If people are gonna get mad whether the changes are reasonable or not, you don't get anything for intentionally making them more mad.
(Also these proposed changes, with the only exceptions being PR and the Engravings addons, aren't 'beyond idiotic', they're actually good ideas in theory. They just need testing- which is what the PTB is for.)
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But you can heal with it...?
That's the whole thing it'll do after its nerf, it'll let you heal faster. It's still healing if you're healing your teammates, that is still what you are doing and what word you would use to describe the action.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381987#Comment_3381987
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381994#Comment_3381994
How?
All medkits have had their self healing speed standardised, meaning with botany knowledge - all medkits will heal you in 16 seconds aka the same as a brown medkit by itself does now. Green Medkits no longer give you increased self healing speed
Please explain how that is in anyway overpowered.
How does it make any sense that by bringing a perk that lets you heal your teammates faster, you stop yourself from being able to use a default medkit to heal yourself?
Oops, sorry, I missed this.
It's not just medkits, though- Botany Knowledge is a really strong perk right now, and while I do acknowledge that higher base healing speeds would impact that, I'm still very wary about just giving it a flat buff like that. A flat 50% increase to all sorts of healing without any requirement or penalty would be a very, very strong perk even with 24-second base heals, and the entire point of the change is to make no healing source overly strong.
At the very least, they should monitor BK and see how it performs after the change hits. I know I'll be testing it on this upcoming PTB since it's already one of my favourite survivor perks.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382038#Comment_3382038
Kick vs no kick. You can also avoid giving the killer the notification by hitting greats.
I'm not sure I understand, what do you mean no kick? You still have to kick generators, or at least get them regressing some other way, in order for Surveillance to do anything. I suppose that gives it more synergy, but evaluating the perks on their own, they're very comparable.
And yeah, greats don't give info, but in my experience most skillchecks do seem to end up being good, especially if survivors don't know to try and avoid them.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382035#Comment_3382035
Nah CoB’s terrible now. There’s no universe where it’s better than Surveillance.
Based on what?
I don't see any clear reasoning for one being better than the other. The differences seem like personal taste to me.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381986#Comment_3381986
Just run Surveillance.
Surveillance and Call of Brine are pretty comparable, in my opinion. Surveillance gives you more immediate information, but Call of Brine gives you more noticeable and technically more up-to-date information while being on a timer, which Surveillance isn't.
I think the new Gearhead changes stand a chance of putting it up there too, so, killers who want generator information are going to have a pretty sizeable pool to pick from!
Personally, I think I'll prefer CoB over Surveillance, but I do like both perks.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382000#Comment_3382000
Oops, I literally never noticed it exists lmao, sorry about that.
still I don't think the statement "completely regressing generators due to call of brine is not that rare" is true when it can only regress like 15% or so even with full duration for current effect though.
True, but I think the outcome is fair. You get the generator recon effect and a tiny bit of extra regression for a little oomph, I think that's a fair place for the perk to be.
The 25% extra regression isn't going to meaningfully matter in most cases, but that's fine- the reason CoB and Overcharge were changed is almost certainly to tackle the whole 3-gen strat that they enable. Overcharge is going to be in a rough spot after this, but I genuinely think Call of Brine is going to have a perfectly serviceable niche.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381986#Comment_3381986
That would be a fairly decent recon perk I think.
though I don't understand, Is that an actual change for CoB I missed or something else?
That's what CoB currently does. Everyone forgets that it has two effects, lol.
You get a loud noise notification for every good skill check hit during the 60 second timer.
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Unless you also un-buff BK to put it back down to 33%, that would make the perk wildly overpowered. It's already an extremely strong perk with the downside, so just taking away that limiting factor makes it wayyyy stronger.
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There's no situation where 25% extra regression for 60 seconds is worth it, no, but there's plenty of situations where 60 seconds of loud noise notifications for every skill check is pretty useful.
Meta-worthy? Nah. Usable? Oh yeah, absolutely.
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The language barrier argument is not only very easy to support, it is the reason that voice comms in DBD wouldn't fix any issues with solo queue whatsoever. If the problem is that you cannot exchange information, them adding in a tool that only some players will be able to use to exchange information, and even then only some of the time, does not fix anything- most games are still in the exact same spot as before. It's not a fix.
Other games don't have this issue because of a combination of two factors; the first is that the lack of information is not as big of a balance problem as it is here, and the second is that they have methods of conveying information that aren't voice comms. DBD runs contrary to both of those things, and that's why language barriers prevent voice comms from being a viable fix to the solo queue issue.
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From what we've seen, you'll still be able to use medkits for two heals, they'll just be a little bit slower. If base numbers for CoH are acceptable, the new medkit speed should be too- it's only a difference of three seconds.
You should also be able to boost those heals with the usual tools you can use right now. Botany Knowledge + Streetwise, Built to Last, as well as perks that give you partial healing back like Resurgence, Solidarity, and Reactive Healing- but you say you have no other healing perks, and I assume they're what you mean since you definitely do have some healing perks.
Which brings me to- bare minimum, Inner Healing is a solid perk that'll give you one or two heals on average per match, that's worth running. Renewal has a requirement so it's a little less reliable, but that requirement is healing others, and if these changes hit with no tweaks you're going to need to heal your teammates more. Bare minimum there, you've got We'll Make It and Botany Knowledge to heal your teammates faster.
This is branching out into some slight gambling elements since solo queue teammates are... unpredictable, shall we say, but there's also stuff like Leader to boost the speed other people heal you at. Some people might be running tools to heal you faster as well, if you're lucky enough to get competent teammates that aren't too self-focused.
There are still tools for self healing in the game that'll be useful after this patch hits even assuming absolutely no tweaks are made, which some may very well be since it is a very hefty nerf. They're just never going to be as fast as current stacked medkits/CoH/other tools, because that's the entire problem they're aiming to fix; heals shouldn't be super fast.
Honourable mention should also go to perks like Resilience, Iron Will, Distortion, and anything else that either gives you bonuses for being injured or makes you stealthier, since spending more of the trial injured doesn't have to be all downsides.
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I have to ask, and I'm being genuine- how on earth does removing Lightburn help Wraith in camping scenarios?