jesterkind
jesterkind
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Dang, this is a pretty big one. I like it, I usually can't afford the Rift!
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401748#Comment_3401748
Overcharge was always bad, nerfing him won't really change it this much.
CoB wasn't useless, it was quite good perk even without overcharge combo, it is terrible now. So killers still lost one good perk.
I mean, they better to come up with some better buffs to perks on both sides. So there is something to use.
Yeah, I've been talking about Overcharge this whole time. CoB will be fine, it's always had the information aspect so the nerf to the regression rate won't harm it as badly as the nerfs to Overcharge.
It's not an incredible perk, but it's usable. You'd be surprised how useful those loud noise notifications can be, depending on context.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401738#Comment_3401738
I would rather see just using kill switch, while fixing the perk, even if it takes few months.
This is lazy treatmant, just nuking the perk to fix a problem. There is already lot of useless perks on both sides, I don't think we need to add more.
Eh, I think that'd be an over-reach of the killswitch. That functionality is for things that are broken, not badly designed. If we go down that road a lot of this game will end up disabled, lol.
Again, nuking a perk that is already useless is very different to nuking a perk that had legitimate function. Besides, Overcharge kiiiind of still works? It's just, only really useful for players at a level where skillchecks are frequently missed, which in fairness isn't nobody.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401723#Comment_3401723
I don't think that perk can be fixed. It should have been reworked.
Even before it was just noob stomper perk, not good for the game.
CoB might be fine with 150% imo, but there is no reason to use it nerfed to this level. Information part is irrelevant, when Nowhere to hide does that perk way better. That's actually still valid with Eruption.
CoB and Overcharge should have been completely changed.
The perk wasn't fixed. The problem was, specifically, the problem with enabling incredibly easy 3-gen holding for games that last 40 minutes. That has been at least mostly addressed with the perks that made it possible taken off the table.
CoB's information isn't comparable to Nowhere To Hide. Its closest analogue is Surveillance, and there's ups and downs to both. It'll have a use, and that use shouldn't be regression because we saw how that ended up.
Completely changing perks takes a lot longer, and people's complaints had reached a fever pitch regarding 3-gens. Sure, they misidentified the cause as Skull Merchant, but that just means they'll still be mad even after she's addressed. The idea that a quick but imperfect fix should come in isn't entirely insane, imo.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401698#Comment_3401698
so just removing it as a problem ASAP and dealing with it later is a pretty fair approach imo.
issue is they will not touch it for like 2-3 years.
Possibly, but considering Overcharge is currently a useless perk if you aren't doing the 3-gen strat, I really cannot bring myself to be all that mad.
Like, sure, it's useless now. It was useless before, though. If you aren't the 3-gen sort, nothing's changed, the problem's just been dealt with.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400804#Comment_3400804
Corrupt, Pop, Pain resonance, Eruption, CoB, Overcharge were nerfed. Probably some others, but those I remember.
Jolt is decent, but m1 killer only.
CoB, Overcharge were not fixed, they were destroyed. That's very different. They are useless now. I will rather use Oppression than those.
Pain Resonance wasn't touched, it was nerfed hard. It's not dead perk tho, but you need to use some synergy with it, not alone use perk anymore.
Not all in this patch, though, that's conflating two different statements. This patch is not nerfing all slowdown, it's fixing two problems and nerfing one additional slowdown perk that had more minor issues. Even the ones you mentioned as having been nerfed in the past are still good, since you've only really brought up Corrupt, Eruption, and Pop there; the first two are still very solid and the third can still be okay depending on situation.
And yeah, I'd say Call of Brine is being fixed, in a way. It's no longer going to be problematic for 3-gen builds but it is going to be a usable perk with a clear niche. Overcharge, to be fair, that one might actually be destroyed; the perk really needs a complete rework, though, so just removing it as a problem ASAP and dealing with it later is a pretty fair approach imo.
I'm going to not comment on Pain Res until I see it in action. Certainly nobody can deny that for your first couple hooks on Pain Res it's a buff in terms of raw effect, but we'll see if it needing to be on fresh survivors makes much of a difference to its usability. I'm trying not to comment too conclusively on PR until I can see it on live, save to point out that the buff they gave it from PTB to live will obviously have some effect.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400804#Comment_3400804
-"I can think of a few"
What maps am I thinking about : Storehouse, Ironworks, Shelter woods, Suffo pit, Azarov's, Blood Lodge, Gas Heaven, Wretched Shop, All 5 corn maps, Both Crotus maps , Both Swamp maps, Lerys, Both Red Forest Maps, All Badham maps, The Game, Both Yamoka Maps, Ormond, Hawkins (even though its removed), Dead Dog, Mid, RPD, and Borgo.
Garden of Joy is actually not viable to 3 gen because the map is a "U" shame and it's way too easy to deny a 3 gen.
You're gonna have to back that list up with some explanations, unfortunately, because I'm only seeing one map where 3-gen is basically required and that's Azarov's, due to its shape making anything other than a 3-gen a serious downside for you.
Some of them, like Dead Dawg and RPD, are easier to 3-gen on because of their generator spread, but that obviously doesn't automatically translate to holding a 3-gen being required so I'd have to hear your reasoning on all these maps. Ideally not one by one, if there's some overarching logic you're using for all of them that'd be the best thing to tackle.
(We've also still got the floating question of if you think CoB/Overcharge should've stayed the way it is, for the record.)
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401071#Comment_3401071
im not going to lie thats not going to happen the post is way to long imo and i made it to about the second paragraph and way like yeah im done reading. if you want to copy it into a response then ok but other then that i stand by what i said this game has little skill expression and even that is removed by the amount of loop with no gameplay on them. BTW no disrespect to you or the fact that you wrote a huge post im just not going to read all that.
I mean, fair enough, but I do have to question the logic of replying in a thread when you haven't read the OP, lol.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400916#Comment_3400916
there is only so much skill expression in this game especially do to the random nature of the game. question if my chase are lasting around 20 seconds yet im still getting 4 man outed is it really a skill problem? ive been playing with some of the slowdown that is left and it doesn't look good we are moving back in to the 10 minute q times for survivors era because slowdown is an necessity against decent survivor that do gens. the devs have done nothing to slow the game down on the killer side which needs to happen because its a 4v1 yet killer regression is 4x slower then survivor progression. the game is seriously imbalance when it comes to objective speed and its why slowdown is ran and now with slowdown all but gone more and more killer will either use tactics to circumvent the objective speeds or just leave and neither is heathy for the game.
I'd recommend reading the full post, I address this mindset in it.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400957#Comment_3400957
After reading and thinking about what you said I mostly agree.
Especially the point you made about players being able to do well even without stacking slowdown is something that I can attest to. I might not be the average player (mostly because I know a lot of the actual numbers behind perks and powers) but I'm not a tournament player either. I have refused to put on slowdown for almost 2 years now and I've been doing fine. I can see how limited my time in a match is and that often enough I am completely unable to compete due to matches being over in about 4 minutes but I'm doing ok. You can play without slowdown. It's just way harder than it should be (in my opinion). Even 1 slowdown perk can make a big difference, though we're moving closer to where that is no longer the case.
I am uncertain about Overcharge. It offers too little extra regression speed to be considered a good perk for that part alone. The skill check is a bit of a mixed bag as well. It's punishing for newer players (that already have a rough time going against any slowdown) but pretty much a non factor for everyone else. In my opinion it's worse than before the initial buff in 6.1.0.
One thing though. I looked it up and Thanatophobia at 4 stacks gives you 4 × 2% + 12% = 20% slowdown instead of 30%.
Oh, shoot, my bad- I even looked up all the perks to make sure I got the numbers right, my finger must've slipped while typing that up or something. Thanks for the correction, I'll leave it up so your response doesn't look weird lmao
And I appreciate the response in general! I went through a bit of a phase using either no slowdown at all, or only minimal slowdown, as a way to sort of hone my skills- I know it's possible even if I'm not quite at that point personally, so if that's possible, bringing less individually potent slowdown in a build that complements it definitely is.
Overcharge, I lean towards it not being good, but I was attempting to give every perk as much benefit of the doubt as I could. Personally I'd love to see it reworked entirely, I don't know that it's current effect can be balanced very easily.
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@Brimp said:
Jolt I guess. Overall the whole slowdown execution was a bit overdue but not in this way. I would willingly sacrifice what I want to run in my build if I had the limitation of 1 regression if they were still as strong as they were. That way no regression stacking where a generator loses all progress in 30 seconds because a killer simply kicked it. Didn't hook someone prior to earn the regression, just kicked it.
I've laid out quite a few more options than that, but also, the title is rhetorical, lol. I'm making a point with it.
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I had a lot to say on the subject!
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@Zeidoktor said:
I've used Hex: Ruin, Pain Res, and Oppression on Artist alongside Surveillance for a long distance regression build. The idea is to take advantage of Artist's ability to harass gens from almost anywhere and use that to locate survivors. Oppression is for when Ruin inevitably goes down, whether by cleanse or death. Though I've been contemplating swapping with Eruption.
On that note, I'd also add Eruption as a viable choice on M2 killers who down with their powers, as it does for them what Jolt does for M1s, turn a down into potential regression. The more mobile among them can also benefit from the aura info.
You know, I tried pairing Ruin with Surveillance before, and didn't have much luck- but I was trying it on Wraith, and now that you mention it, Artist might get more value out of that particular build.
Smart idea, I like it!
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Interestingly, the patch notes for the most recent PTB included a line about adjusting generator placement on Haddonfield. I didn't get a chance to test that myself, and I don't know if anyone else did either, but that could mean that they've adjusted the 3-gen issue there.
Something to look out for on live, to be sure.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400247#Comment_3400247
There's very few good gen regression/defense perks left. And the couple that are left are already starting to see complaints.
Lets look at the perks for gen defense at this point:
- Call of Brine
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby
- Hex: Pentimento
- Hex: Ruin
- Jolt
- Merciless Storm
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Thanatophobia
Now lets look at the ones that are, after the next patch, are useless, or going to be useless, and why.
- Call of Brine - Default gen regression is 0.25 charges per second (a gen is 90 charges) CoB makes that 0.3125 charges per second. Which means to have a full 89 second gen regress basekit takes 356 seconds. And with CoB will now take 284.8 seconds. What a complete joke of a perk now.
- Eruption - Keeping eruption at 10 % total was a good change, but the reason eruption used to be strong, was because landing it, meant you downed a survivor, and if you hit survivors with it, you block them from repairing for around how long it would take you to hook the survivor you just downed, and start running over to the gen you are on. Now all it does is save you 9 seconds off the gen they were on, and show their aura. Meaning if you go for the downed survivor, you they will regain that 9 seconds before you even hook them, and the aura reading is useless. It only encourages slugging builds really, and the setup for it is too long for it to be useful now.
- Grim Embrace - What a complete joke of a perk, after hooking each survivor, you block every gen for 40 seconds and get to see where the obsession is. All this does, when it even actually activates in a situation that you want it to (I.E. The last survivor you chased isn't your obsession) it is super short and easy to just hide it out. Because you are blocking every single gen, so what else are survivors going to do? It technically saves you time, but it saves you time in a way that doesn't really benefit you and is easily countered. At BEST the perk is going to let you chase and down a single survivor without having gen progress happen which isn't really going to make much of a difference in a 12 hook game.
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby - Another complete joke of a perk, all it does is hurt low tier survivors. But even then, it takes so long to build up to being powerful, that by the time you do, the perk is already gone anyway. Compare the build up of this perk, with the build up of devour hope and you'll realize how useless this perk is.
- Hex: Ruin - Similar to CoB, base regression is simply too weak, maybe if base regression was stronger this would be good, but its too weak for what little power it gives, and on top of that, it can be cleansed. MAYBE if this wasn't a Hex perk, it might be decent for some passive regression, but that's still a big maybe.
- Merciless Storm - Completely joke of a perk, any decent survivor is hitting those skill checks, and even then if they don't the punishment is basically nothing, you get barely enough time to walk over to the gen and chase them off, but again, they can just hide out the perk, and now you either spend time looking for them, and the other 3 survivors finish gens, or you leave, and the survivor finishes the gen anyway.
- Oppression - This perk is another one that MIGHT be decent, if it didn't have some massive cooldown. Why does this perk even HAVE a cooldown at all? At most the cooldown for this thing should be 30 seconds, but even that is pushing it IMO. In general though, good survivors are hitting that skill check anyway, and as mentioned before, base regression sucks anyway, so the only real benefit is the skill check.
- Overcharge - Base regression sucks, and you are making it suck even more? And then its barely as good as the new CoB. The skill check again, will be hit easily by good survivors, and the worst part is, it doesn't even counter gen tapping because the skill check will "follow" the survivor, and allow them to hit it while they are getting chased off the gen, meaning you can't even use it to counter gen tapping. MAYBE if the skill check didn't follow the survivor, and it didn't start at < 100% regression it might be DECENT.
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain - With these new changes, survivors are more likely to just stay injured anyway. But this perk is so easily countered. As soon as you realize the killer has it, you just heal up, and then force the killer to hit you by body blocking for someone, and now it is gone. Even then, 16% penalty makes a 90 second gen take 107 seconds, or 17 seconds longer, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't that much longer, especially when there is an easy way to avoid it and remove it.
- Thanatophobia - Complete joke of a perk since its nerf. It is only good on really 1 killer, and the only reason it is good on that 1 killer (plague) is to basically force survivors to cleanse and actually give you a power. It is damn near required on her otherwise you are just an m1 killer with 4 injured survivors the whole game and then what is the point. Even with 3 survivors injured though, it gives 6% penalty to repairs, which makes a 90 second gen take 95.75 seconds. What a complete joke of a perk, all for 3 injured survivors? And if you get the 4th, all it does is make one of them heal really quick and you lose the big penalty.
So now the completely useless ones are removed, what does that leave us with:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Hex: Pentimento
- Jolt
- Pop goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
Now of those, which ones are simply DECENT or SITUATIONAL:
- Corrupt Intervention - The problem with corrupt is the same as it has always been, all it does is make it so you won't lose 3 gens at the end of your first chase, now you'll only lose 1 or 2, then the perk is completely gone and you have no perk for the rest of the game. If it had some other effect, maybe like lethal pursuer where it increased the duration of gen blocking perks by some number of seconds, it might get a bit more value. Additionally, it isn't actually as good as lethal pursuer because good survivors can hide out a significant portion of the timer, or sneak by the killer and start doing gens. If you run to the blocked gens, where the survivors probably are, good chance is they'll sneak by you. If you defend the unblocked gens, good change they'll just wait out the timer, and you basically bought "2 extra minutes" of game time, but with no progress happening on either side.
- Dead Man's Switch - Dead man's switch is really only good when paired with Pain Res, it COULD be good when paired with oppression if that didn't have a 6 year cooldown. But the main problem is, getting survivors off gens when you aren't a handful of specific killers isn't easy when you are probably on the other side of the map. And on top of that, the gen blocking starts taking effect immediately after you hook the person, meaning that, by the time you walk to another gen a survivor is repairing, you probably spend 10-15 of the 30 seconds. Then in blocks the gen, now what, good job, you just blocked a gen that nobody was working on anyway. So the value there is pretty minimal.
- Hex: Pentimento - Boons hard counter this, because it really is only good when paired with Hex: Plaything. Which, good players will often just completely ignore, because they know you will have pentimento with it, but even with that perk, activating pentimento is actually quite hard. You have to: Hook a survivor, then THEY have to cleanse the totem after they get unhooked, or some other survivor has to after 90 seconds, assuming anyone even sees it (plaything has a low impact against good players generally since most killers are loud AF anyway) and then you have to walk back to the totem and activate it. That is assuming that the survivors don't have a boon to make it so you can't activate it. THEN when you activate it, survivors will know where the totem is because they see the giant blob that shows them where the Hex was at when it was cleansed anyway, so it likely won't last long.
- Jolt - Jolt is highly map and killer dependent. If you are playing a killer who generally downs survivors with their ability you will get no value from this perk. Generally this is good on the "weaker" killers, but then those killers are already having to 3 gen anyway, so giving a 7.2 second gen regression on a few gens near you when you down someone isn't going to be adding any tremendous value. Because similar to eruption, all you did was buy yourself a few seconds to pick up the survivor you just downed and hook them.
- Pop goes the Weasel - This perk was heavily nerfed to be "current progress" what a complete joke, but this is where we are at. This perk is only decent when you factor in the fact that you get the 2.5% from the base kit plus the 20% current progress (no idea which applies first, but lets say it gives you the best version) that means that a gen at 45 seconds, is going to lose 11.25 seconds of progress. So really, the perk is still kind of a joke when compared to what we have had in the past.
So where does that leave us with "good" gen defense perks that are actually viable to use:
- Deadlock - This is really the only REALLY good one left, it gives you a full 120 seconds of gen defense, or 1.3 gens worth for a total game, and blocks gens with the most progress, allowing you to get the next gen that is going to pop. But similar to dead man's, this perk still isn't really THAT much stronger than it. Because it doesn't really offer much in the way of "gen defense" but it is more of a "gen rush" protection. But even then, 30 seconds is an extremely short amount of time for this perk to be nearly as good as old eruption, or Pain res/Dead man's
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance - This perk will still be decent, but not nearly as powerful as before. You'll still basically have to pair it with dead man's switch to be good. But given that you get 4 uses, all this does is help you when you want to "play nice". You'll get a solid 90 seconds or 1 gen of regression out of it, if you use it to it's fullest potential. And that is generally where i draw the line. If the perk can give you a full gen of defense, it is probably viable.
The problem with this game is time efficiency. Base regression is SOOOO slow compared to survivors PROgression. Taking nearly 360 seconds to regress a gen from 99% is so dumb, and most gen perks only shave off maybe 10 seconds if you are lucky of gen time. 10 seconds is not even enough time to pick up a survivor, wait for the animation, walk to a hook, and the hook them, then wait for the animation. That by itself is going to take 2.5 + ~8 + 1.5 = 12 seconds. So, while you might have just shaved off 12 second of gen time from some of the weaker perks. Hooking that survivor costs you 12 seconds. Meanwhile 3 survivors are working on gens, meaning they still gained 25% of a gens worth of progress between the 3 of them despite your 12 second reduction.
The only viable perks are the one that, over the course of a game, can save at least a full gen's worth of progress. And even then, they are only really useful if they offer some major BURST regression/defense. Because you always have to be thinking that, you have 4 survivors. So even saving 25 SECONDS, when you hook a survivor with pain res, you are still only GAINING a SINGLEsecond of time in your favor as the killer there. 12 seconds to hook the survivor, but 36 seconds of gen progress and 25 seconds of burst regession = 36 seconds - 12 seconds - 25 seconds = -1 second of PROgression on gens.
Once you look at the math, you can see how ridiculous it is. With how long chases can be, god pallets and such, a single pallet break in a chase, increases the length of that chase by a full 20 seconds AT MINIMUM. That doesn't even factor in if the survivor wins a mindgame, which probably adds another 20-30 seconds of chase time depending on the mindgame. This is why you lose 3 gens in the first chase, and why a single mistake in a chase often will cost you the entire game. And now you see why 3genning, camping, and tunneling is pretty much all you can do.
And if you are going to say: "i don't use gen defense perks and i do fine as *insert low tier killer here*" then post the receipts on youtube, so we can watch how terrible the survivors that you are going against are.
I find breakdowns of hard numbers like this kind of interesting, in a way- but I think the most relevant part of them is that your numbers towards the end of your post there, regarding getting a hook, very much misses a pretty major part of the game, which is that getting a hook while all four survivors are alive is an immediate -50% penalty to generator efficiency. The very second that one survivor peels away to get the save, that is two survivors who cannot be working on generators, and since you're aiming to maximise your pressure as killer, you're going to be going and chasing one of the remaining two before the save happens if you can help it, to ensure the maximum number of survivors are occupied with something that isn't a generator.
That's what your slowdown perks are for, to give you windows of extra time to generate that kind of pressure. That's why a lot of the perks that are left are still totally worth running, because the point of them is to buy extra time to disable the survivors naturally, not for any one of your perks to be the actual main pressure preventing the survivors from finishing generators.
Now, I know there's a few issues with that framing- for one, toolboxes and a handful of other tools do make generators fly too fast for that to really be as effective as it should be, and that is a problem that should be addressed, but luckily the slowdown we have left is still good enough to mostly combat that against a majority of teams. Second, there is the pretty glaring question of, well, what if someone isn't hanging on a hook that long? What if the save happens almost immediately? In that case, it's pretty clear whoever got the save wasn't on a generator to begin with, they were lurking around near the down to get the unhook. It's not as good for you, but it still means the generator efficiency went down noticeably- and let's face it, that kind of save happens while you're still around, so you've got a choice of two targets to pressure if you deem it a good idea.
Your job as a killer isn't to regress the generators down as far as possible. Your job as a killer is to prevent the survivors from escaping, and from that lens, the most important aspect of generators is binary; are they complete, or are they still being repaired? That's why perks like Deadlock and Merciless Storm (when a skillcheck is missed, anyway) are still good despite only affecting one generator for a short time; they prevent the generator from being finished, giving you time to generate more pressure with your downs and hooks. Obviously progression matters, it's easier for survivors to finish a 99'd generator than it is for them to finish a completely empty one, but that element only matters insofar as it relates to the binary mentioned above.
Now, of course, some slowdown perks could and should be buffed to better reflect this, they aren't all on an equal + neutral playing field. Grim Embrace should show all auras, Oppression should have its cooldown lowered as far as possible, DMS could stand to have a longer duration now that it can't be as effectively paired with Pain Res, and so on and so forth. However, that doesn't mean we don't have anything worth running so long as we understand what it is we're trying to achieve with our perks in the first place.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400125#Comment_3400125
-"You keep bringing up that it's a 70% nerf (to one half, not to the whole perk, but still), but you don't seem to be acknowledging that it was a justified 70% nerf? 3-gen games have been a problem, there's no denying that, and something needed to be done about CoB and Overcharge."
A large number of maps in this game are "3 gen or GTFO". Most of the killers do not have the means to patrol generators unless they are close together. You will lose 2 generators in the first chase so you don't really have much time before the survivors win. If you hold a 3 gen on certain maps like Suffocation pit or Azarov's you can win if you defend that 3 gen setup until someone dies.
Is it not a problem that most of the old killers need to tunnel one player out of the game vs efficient players?
As I said before - nerfing one side's tools but not the others is a real bad idea. Toolboxes should have become sabo only and the gen rush perks should have gotten a 70% nerf if the gen regression perks got a 70% nerf.
How about this : would anyone use Hyperfocus if you did not get extra skill checks from a toolbox and it only did 30% of what it does now?
If we think about an alternate reality from a balance perspective - imagine a world where the gen regression didn't get touched but the gen rush perks got a 70% nerf. That would not be fair.
-"the fact that a majority of people only cared about one half doesn't change that."
The fact that nobody is using CoB for whatever it does besides gen regression matters because nobody will be using that perk after the mid chapter patch. The use rate will fall below 5% because it won't be worth 25% of your perk slots.
A large number? I can think of a few, Haddonfield and Azarov's are pretty heavily encouraged to 3-gen in their current state, but it's definitely not a large majority. Three or four at most. Even so, that doesn't really mean anything, you can hold a 3-gen on those maps without CoB/Overcharge and that combo of perks allows you to hold a 3-gen infinitely on any map, so... surely you're not saying CoB/Overcharge were fine and shouldn't be changed because of a handful of maps having kind of poor generator spreads?
It would be a problem if old killers needed to tunnel someone out ASAP. Good thing that's not the case, eh?
Okay, we're on firmer ground comparing regression perks to progression perks, so this is where we can start having a conversation. Now, nobody's going to deny (at least, nobody with any sense) that certain elements of generator progression are overtuned; some red herrings are thrown up that really aren't a problem, like Prove Thyself, but if we're in the realm of talking about toolboxes and Brand New Parts, yes, those things do need to be nerfed. IF this patch had taken a broad sweeping look at slowdown perks, not nerfing toolboxes as well at bare minimum would be a massive oversight, to put it mildly.
However, what people keep ignoring is that this patch isn't touching all slowdown. It's fixing CoB/Overcharge, that's not a net loss for killers that aren't forcing infinite 3-gens, and it's touching Pain Resonance. All the other slowdown that exists in the game - Corrupt, Deadlock, Plaything/Pentimento, Eruption, Jolt, Gift of Pain, etcetera - they're all still there. That doesn't mean toolboxes aren't a problem, obviously, but it does make the one-to-one equivalence of "if slowdown is being nerfed, progression should be nerfed too" not apply, because slowdown isn't being nerfed. Three perks are being nerfed, and two of them obviously need it.
Finally, I was never making any comment or reference to what CoB's new pickrate will be. I have, this whole time, literally just been acknowledging the basic fact that it has always had two effects.
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For the record, the dev update said you get activations of Dead Hard via being unhooked Instead of getting unhooks, not in addition. So based on the wording, there is a hard limit of two Dead Hard uses per survivor, and they have to be staggered between hook states instead of used at the survivor's discretion. It's a huge nerf.
Similarly, it's worth mentioning that CoB and OC weren't chosen frequently "because killers have no other perks", but because they enabled the 3-gen camping strategy, which was obviously unhealthy and warranted being nerfed. Pain Resonance is a different story, I'll grant you that, but CoB and OC did need to be nerfed. It wasn't arbitrary.
+100% speed on CoH is slightly concerning, but that's really the only thing to be concerned about in this patch. It still can't be used to self heal or chain with medkits, and medkits themselves are substantially weaker, so at bare minimum the self-heal problem has been fixed.
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@Katzengott said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400140#Comment_3400140
I asume you're on PC, checking survs hours before? Because as i said, if not, you never know what caliber you're going against. Still having 5 gens within the first down/hook doesn't mean anything. First gen could be on 75%, second one on 90% and a third one on 99% if they just split up. And then tell me just one reason not to tunnel and/or proxy camp. Just one. Remember, i'm playing KILLER.
I don't really bother checking survivor hours, personally. Decent chance the hours could be misleading, but honestly, the bigger reason is that I legitimately just don't care.
Well, I can tell you one good reason not to proxy camp in that situation: You'll lose. They'll just bang out the other two generators, that's pretty obvious. As for tunnelling- again, you could, I'm not denying it's a solid option, but you'd get about as much from selective slugging and potentially clever use of your perks, depending what you're running.
None of that really is relevant to the overall point, though, which is about perk builds. You'll still, after this patch, have plenty of viable slowdown as long as you're putting it in a proper build and paying proper attention to what killer you're playing, and as long as you aren't trying to do something obnoxious like CoB/Overcharge 3-gen camping.
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@Katzengott said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399602#Comment_3399602
Do you think killers enjoyed using the same 4 slowdown perks almost every game? For me they're just clusterfixes against teams who actually do gens. I know it's hard to believe, but it can happen in lit every match.
Just one thing about Corrupt... Played a match vs. a Plague on RPD last night. I noticed she had it, ran right into her and she got her first down within 10 secs. What she didn't know is, i went down on purpose. Luckily a aware Tapp flashlight safed me and boom, bye Corrupt - it lasted like 30 secs.
I have no idea what my fellow killer players enjoy running. If anyone genuinely believes they must run four slowdown perks every match, then I'd be delighted to inform them that 100% isn't necessary. Two slowdowns would be preferable, leaving you room for other essentials like tracking or chase perks.
You don't need to stack tons of slowdown, and regarding the patch that sparked this discussion, you definitely absolutely don't need to defend a 3-gen with CoB/Overcharge. Just the same as you don't need to tunnel someone out ASAP. Those are effective strategies (if done smartly), but they are not anywhere close to required.
Regarding Corrupt: I don't think intentionally giving the killer an incredibly early down + early pressure is a particularly smart way of countering any perk. If that Tapp hadn't flashlight saved, it would've backfired tremendously on you.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399296#Comment_3399296
-"Call of Brine started out as a hybrid perk, offering both regression and information."
You keep pushing this narrative but nobody was using it for the information; they used it for regression.
I said what if we made exhaustion perks a dual purpose information perk and nerfed the movement or stun ability by 70% - Would anyone use them?
Nobody would use them even though they do something else but have a 70% nerfed ability and that's my point. You want to push the idea that a perk nerfed by 70-75% is still fine. Ok sure thing then let's nerf all the exhaustion perks.
In before : Exhasution perks are not the same as gen regression perks. The problem is that exhaustion perks delay damage and prolong chases. Longer chases means more time on generators/healing/rescuing/opening doors.
What do Exhaustion perks do? They give you extra time to delay so that someone not being focused in a chase has even more time to do whatever they are doing. Overall they create a time advantage for your team. Note: Kick perks that regress generators do the same thing for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399812#Comment_3399812
-"Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design,"
First of all I disagree with the word abuse as this is what the developers intended the game to be like after the 6.1 change. These perks allow you to have decent games with killers who are not "amazing" in chase like Nurse/Blight.
The thing that happened is that survivors said, "I don't like this" and as usual it got nerfed to placate them.
-"No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem."
From a game design perspective there is a problem if both sides have tools to do opposing things and then you take the tools away from one side but not the other.
Gen rushing perks didn't get 70% nerfs but gen regression perks did. Why did they not get equal treatment along with toolboxes?
Back in the beginning of DBD we didn't have gen rush perks because the devs were afraid we would have a situation where someone could put XYZ together and finish a generator in 40 seconds that was supposed to take 90 seconds (Looking at you Hyperfocus).
The bottom line here is that the devs caved to survivor pressure and delivered small survivor nerfs with massive killer nerfs.
The irony is that this should be the part of the plan where killers get buffed (as that was the next step after solo players got put closer to SWF play).
It's not a narrative, it's literally just a fact. Call of Brine has always been a hybrid perk, the fact that a majority of people only cared about one half doesn't change that.
You're not even giving appropriate information to Exhaustion perks in this ridiculous hypothetical, either. Since it would be information relevant to the time you use the perk - kicking a generator for CoB, meaning the information is when that generator is worked on again - then the equivalent would be seeing the Killer's aura for a handful of seconds once Exhausted. I don't know if anyone would run that, but it's a weird hypothetical considering the perk doesn't currently do that. That isn't how any of the Exhaustion perks are designed, but it is - and has been this whole time - the way CoB is designed.
You keep bringing up that it's a 70% nerf (to one half, not to the whole perk, but still), but you don't seem to be acknowledging that it was a justified 70% nerf? 3-gen games have been a problem, there's no denying that, and something needed to be done about CoB and Overcharge. In the case of CoB, I think it now being pushed towards the other effect it's always had and people mostly ignored is one of the healthiest changes it could've gotten.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399587#Comment_3399587
We know that new DH is largely considered an un-nerf, because so many survivors went from "I can't believe BHVR is trying to kill this game" to "thank you BHVR for listening to our feedback". BHVR was so heavy with the survivor un-nerfs that they have completely failed to make injuries feel like they matter, even though that was supposed to be the entire point of this meta shakeup.
If the survivor community largely felt new DH was weaker than original PTB DH, then these forums would have been flooded with survivor complaints.
You know as well as I do that the comments about killing the game and listening to feedback were primarily about the healing changes.
As for people's outcry, I'll admit, I'm surprised. There's no real argument for this version of Dead Hard being anything but a gigantic nerf, so I am legitimately taken aback that we're not seeing more complaints about it. Hell, it was nerfed from the PTB too, given that you no longer have any control over when you even get to attempt to use it.
I can't say why people aren't mad. People blew up like crazy when DS first had its Conspicuous Actions nerf implemented, and that was leagues lighter of a touch than this, so I really would've expected more outcry. Maybe the healing changes really did just overshadow it, or something.
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@blmpride5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399610#Comment_3399610
Yeah people who think running 3-4 gen regression perks is the same as having 1 single decent gen regression perk clearly play both sides. Funny part is I'm more of a survivor main. I just play killer when I get tired of dealing with awful solo q teammates.
Like I said, that's only one element. The other element is that you're probably meant to put more thought into your build than just "well this perk is always very good on every killer so obviously this one".
There's plenty of good slowdown left in the game, it's just not as straightforward as the entirely unhealthy CoB/Overcharge combo or just cycling Pain Res over and over. Or if it is that straightforward, it's weaker, like Deadlock; perfectly viable and useful perk, but not as impactful as the options getting nerfed.
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I think it's more accurate to say that killers shouldn't be stacking four slowdown perks, and that what killer they're playing should factor in to what perks they pick.
After all, you say Eruption was nerfed into the ground, but it really wasn't. Sure, Trapper can't use it for instance, but if you slap Eruption on Wraith with Windstorm and Shadow Dance addons, it becomes a genuinely really solid perk. Same with Dead Man's Switch; it's not quite as good, of course, but put it on a mobile killer or a killer that can pressure gens at range like Doctor and Artist, and they can make pretty solid use of it.
This doesn't apply to Corrupt Intervention, mind. That perk is literally just as good as it was before and its nerf barely impacted it, since the reason you bring it is to push survivors off the gens they spawn on and it still does that literally just as well as before.
Really, the only totally dead regression perk is Ruin. That one is pretty useless, I can't get that one to give value no matter what build I put it in lol
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399324#Comment_3399324
Live DH has an average of 1 activation per hook state, so scenarios like “survivor never got unhooked” would have lowered live DH’s activations too.
And it takes way more time and effort to reliably get an unhook before every chase (especially in solo q), than it is to passively get activations for free. And it’s even more time and effort if 2 solo q survivors bring original PTB DH and are fighting each other to get unhooks.
And if all 4 survivors bring original PTB DH, then it would be a total mess for everyone, because there would be 8 activations that could possibly be available, which averages to 2 activations per survivors, at which point the original PTB’s best scenario is what new DH can easily give for free. And original PTB DH would have been a nightmare for 4 survivors to coordinate, and survivors could very easily miss out on activations.
And original PTB DH would also be worse then new DH if the killer is proxy camping, but doesn’t hit the survivor immediately after being unhooked, because the original PTB DH wouldn’t have given a free activation for being unhooked.
Live Dead Hard has a great many more activations than just one per hook state, because it activates as soon as you're injured. You're conflating activations with uses, which is another reason you're under the impression this isn't a gigantic nerf.
Survivors currently get activations of Dead Hard for free on live. The difference is that now they only get two uses of Dead Hard as well. Or, to be even more accurate, two attempted uses per match.
To the overall point of the PTB DH possibly giving zero uses - what you're missing there is that this new version of the perk has more restrictions than the PTB version, not fewer. You may get two attempts without having to get an unhook, but you have zero control over when those activations are and cannot use them in your first chase or without being hooked between them. The previous version could easily keep someone off the hook multiple times if they're proactive about getting unhooks, and that is stronger than the current version.
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I'd love to see some trans rep, either new character or existing. Other than that, they've got a fair amount of options for giving us some more LGBT rep and an unlimited array of possibilities for new characters in that vein too, so I can't wait to see what they decide on.
David was handled really well from everything I've seen, so good reason to feel positively about it going forward!
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Blood Favour.
I wouldn't call it one of the better Hexes, but I really like it. I slap that perk on Clown pretty frequently, you'd be surprised how often it gives noticeable value.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398682#Comment_3398682
-"If that's the case then why even have Gen regression in the first place?"
You might not remember but back in 2016 we didn't have it. What survivors did was 99% generators so the killer would waste time and patrol them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398533#Comment_3398533
-"Exhaustion perks wouldn't have a secondary effect like Call of Brine does."
No problem let's give them a new secondary info effect. Now when another survivor uses a perk that causes exhaustion you see their aura for one second.
And then the movement speed effect of all suck perks (or the stun effect) is reduced by 70%.
Would you use that? You would not. And that's the point.
I have to admit, I don't see how this comparison even could work.
Call of Brine started out as a hybrid perk, offering both regression and information. The regression aspect ended up causing too many problems, and so now Call of Brine is an information perk.
Laid out like that, it's pretty obvious why trying to talk about nerfing Exhaustion perks is a false equivalence. For starters, they're not hybrid perks where one half is causing problems, so there's no need to talk about changing them to begin with, and for another giving them a secondary effect that makes no mechanical or thematic sense is clearly very different to the perk already having a secondary effect.
It's a false equivalence, and a weirdly unnecessary one? If you don't like CoB's information aspect you can just say that, this is weird.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398064#Comment_3398064
If we Nerfed the effect of all exhaustion perks by 70% do you think any survivors would still use them? They would have the same cooldown of course.
How does that relate to what I said? Exhaustion perks wouldn't have a secondary effect like Call of Brine does.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398064#Comment_3398064
Kicking a gen to get a notification the next time someone does a skill check is hardly worth a perk slot. Undying gives better info than that.
If I need info, I'll run an info perk. Not CoB.
That's a fair opinion, albeit one I disagree with, but everyone seems to just skip acknowledging that Call of Brine is in fact an information perk and doesn't just give a boost to regression. If you think that part isn't worth bringing or isn't enough for the perk to not need to be buffed, you do actually have to say that- and more than just say it, you need to make a case for it, too.
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It always surprises me to see Ormond brought up in conversations about map size as an example of a map that's too big, when it's like, dead centre/average in terms of map sizes. Comparatively, it's really not that big at all.
Regarding the actual point, though- I think there's a middle ground between complete standardisation and what we currently have, and that's where I think the devs should be aiming. Something like Ormond's average size should become the largest a map can be, or at least close to it, but the size should still vary between that and whatever the smallest map is.
Same with pallet distribution. While some of the extreme edges could be reigned in, I think it's generally fine to have outliers like Lery's being windows central and Gideon's having more pallets but like, literally four windows.
TL;DR: Variation is genuinely fine, it's the extreme edges that need to be sanded down.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398112#Comment_3398112
I'm glad we can see eye to eye on certain points.
Regarding the loss of collision,do you want survivors to be unbale to be interacted with for 10 seconds?Because losing collision doesn't prevent slinger and pinhead from spearing/chaining them,it just prevents bodyblocking.If you do,then from a balance perspective it might be fine,but i fear it interrupts the atmosphere the game is trying to portray.You should never feel safe from the killer,and being untouchable easily breaks immersion and the logic the game tries to present.
Losing collision would mean they cannot interact with any other entity in the game, surely? That's what I'm given to understand it means in most games, they'd simply phase right through everything except terrain. Great for making distance, basically useless for trying to mess with the killer in any way.
The atmosphere objection is one I empathise with, though I do think that at some stage a little broken atmosphere is an acceptable price to pay. It comes down to how badly you want to address the current tunnelling problems, really- something should be done, and losing collision has the least balance repercussions. Personally, I could live with the little broken immersion- it'd only even be noticeable if the killer's really on your ass.
For the record, I was also imagining this intangible state would cancel when you perform a Conspicuous Action, and only last about as long as the current Endurance, so not exactly a huge shift in tone.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398097#Comment_3398097
Basekit endurance was added so the killer can't down the unhooked survivor for free.It felt unfair and out of your control whether or not the unhooker had BT.If the unhooker didn't have it the killer could have also easily downed both survivors in quick succession near a hook,which was in most cases was a game over,that felt uninterractive.
Giving the survivor no collision changes nothing,the killer can in very few and situational scenarios bodyblock the survivor(Basement is a good example),meanwhile it allows the survivor to stay inside the killer hitbox which makes the killer unable to swing at anyone else.(bad for endgame scenarios)
Giving them a MoM is straight up busted.Everyone would run OtR and tank 2 hits for free,pair it with DS and deadhard and its borderline unfair,and the sole reason why endurance doesn't stack.
I'm sure they could figure out a way to prevent the survivor stopping the killer from hitting anyone. If nothing else, the killer moves faster than survivors and could lunge out of it, lol.
You're right that losing collision wouldn't change much, but it would crucially prevent your basekit anti-tunnel from simply not working against a killer that can bypass Endurance. That may only be two killers now (Deathslinger and Pinhead), but it's better to nip that potential problem in the bud rather than let it fester.
Yes, I don't personally favour the MoM answer myself since it does allow survivors to bodyblock and tank hits. It could be balanced properly, but it'd require a lot of careful tweaks and I think losing collision would be simpler; they're just both options for fixing the specific problem of basekit anti-tunnel sometimes not working.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398080#Comment_3398080
As mentioned in my first comment,basekit endurace was very obviously not meant to be you weapon against tunneling.It was added because you we're helpless if you unhooker didn't bring BT(outside of your control),as proven by that fact that is was initially 5 seconds.
If you want to implement an anti tunneling change, you need to buff killers in return.You can't just remove one of if not the strongest tactic a killer can use without a hefty compensation.
I'm confused on what you think the difference is, though. Obviously "anti tunnel" means... giving you a tool to ensure you're not helpless if the killer decides to tunnel you?
I think you might have a broader definition of "tunnelling" than is helpful for this discussion. When I say anti-tunnel, I only mean when the killer decides to chase someone immediately after they're unhooked, not the killer prioritising them later or happening to find them again after a short duration.
That's why I suggest a loss of collision. Something to ensure you can't be downed immediately and that'll give you time to reach a loop, but not something that'll protect you if you play aggressively - nor something that'll stop the killer from trying to down you anyway if that seems like the best decision.
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While I don't think any of this is a compelling argument against Endurance (and by extension Deep Wounds) itself, you have hit on one thing I agree with here- I don't think the basekit anti-tunnel should be using Endurance, because it should be uniformly useful against all killers.
Deathslinger and to a much, much lesser extent Legion (as they can't bypass BT, they still have to hit you to put you in Deep Wound, but they can bypass Dead Hard) being able to counter Endurance isn't that much of a problem for most uses of the status effect- as you say, they're perks and addons, and that's just the risk you're taking by bringing them. But, Deathslinger being able to tunnel with impunity, while not a hugely prevalent problem, does raise some question marks.
There are two suggestions I would make with this in mind. The first is what I think should've been done from the start: Make the anti-tunnel protection a complete loss of collision. No using it offensively, no weird combos, just make distance or be vulnerable when your ten seconds elapses.
The second is to make the basekit anti-tunnel work like Mettle of Man, give the block without causing Deep Wounds. I don't favour this outcome, it's too easy to use offensively, but that's true of the current system to and at least this would function better when it's used defensively.
Either way, anti-tunnel perks that provide Endurance (or just other sources like Dead Hard) aren't invalidated by hard tunnelling, which I think is a good state for the game to be in.
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Call of Brine doesn't only have +25% regression. It has a secondary effect that was completely unchanged and is, in my experience, surprisingly useful.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397137#Comment_3397137
Still though... we've got...
Jolt, but only for M1 killers.
Corrupt Intervention arguably for only setup killers.
Deadlock.
Eruption if you can get over the Aura reading coming at an awkward time.
Plaything + Pentimento.
That's not a long list. We had way more options before 6.1 happened.
We still have everything from my list, plus whatever fun combos you can think of for your particular killer. Plus, y'know, the natural pressure and slowdown that comes from getting hooks and forcing altruism.
Sloppy still counts because it is still slowdown, anything that pushes survivors away from generators counts as slowdown even if it doesn't interact with those generators directly.
Corrupt is still extremely useful on every killer, arguably least useful on setup killers. Its nerf in 6.1.0 only made it deactivate when someone is downed, which means the actual desirable value of Corrupt - pushing survivors away from the generators they spawned on - is completely unchanged.
DMS doesn't require camping Artist, it requires survivors being pushed off generators. This includes any Artist play, most Doctor builds, Knight to a lesser degree, and any mobility killer.
Not sure why you have to "get over" Eruption's aura read, you can just ignore Eruption's auras and it's still a perfectly serviceable slowdown perk that shines brightest on mobility killers.
Even some of the nerfed perks are still okay. Pop may not be as good as it was but it can buy you some valuable time on the last few generators, for instance, and new Pain Res seems like it'll give you an okay-ish amount of value. Ruin is dead, though, no denying that.
I don't really find the idea that we've somehow not got any options left particularly compelling, honestly.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397110#Comment_3397110
Sloppy Butcher isn't gen slowdown. It is slowdown and a good perk, but unless you can somehow force survivors to heal, it'll do nothing.
I did forget about Corrupt, but let’s be honest, unless you're playing as a setup killer, it's nerf in 6.1 made it a much less attractive perk.
Dead Man's Switch has no business being on your list. A max of 30s block that you ( basically) have to manually trigger is not good. I guess maybe it'll be viable for a camping Artist.
Also this is ignoring the fact that two of Cenobite's perks are on your list and they've nearly never been in the shrine (Plaything once, Deadlock never) so those aren't actually an option for a good chunk of the community which also kills Pentimento because it doesn't really work without Plaything. Same story for Eruption actually.
So... arguably just Jolt with Corrupt for Trapper, Hag, Demo, and SM. And Jolt isn't strong enough to be your only slowdown... and... it only works on M1's.
Huh. A killer player who hasn't paid real money for DLC and likes M2 killers really has no options for gen defense. That's a mixture of funny and pathetic.
Well, yes, if you shift the goalposts from "there's no slowdown left" to "there's no gen slowdown specifically for players who don't have very many DLCs", the situation is worse, but that's not the argument I was initially responding to or making.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397062#Comment_3397062
I am wondering which gen slowdown perks exactly you think are still good.
Ruin isn't really worth the risk anymore since 100% regression is very little. Pop got hurt a ton when it got switched to current progress. Thana is garbage for anyone not named Legion or Plague. Overcharge and Call of Brine are getting heavily nerfed to the point that CoB is almost not a regression perk anymore. Oppression's CD is a bit too long. Dead Man's Switch isn't very good. Dying Light has basically always been a joke. Pain Res got heavily nerfed.
The closest thing we've got to viable gen defense is Jolt, Deadlock, and the now rather awkward version of Eruption.
And... I suppose one could pair Jolt, Eruption, Knock out, and Sloppy to make a nasty slugging build... but do we want killers playing that way? I don't think we do.
A quick and contextless list would include Deadlock, Eruption, Jolt, Corrupt Intervention, Sloppy Butcher, Plaything + Pentimento (or I guess any Penti build but Plaything is the best for it), and Dead Man's Switch. Plus, not quite slowdown but still relevant, all the endgame perks are as good now as they were before.
As I said above, which of those (+ which other options) are going to be best will now depend far more on which killer you're playing and how you intend to use them, but that's not a bad thing and it doesn't mean there aren't any options.
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The obnoxious and ridiculous gen-kick build was far from the only valuable slowdown. Pain Res being nerfed is more of a hit, but if you're a moderately decent killer player there's plenty of perks you can use to make openings for natural pressure.
What you bring is going to depend on your killer and playstyle more now, there's not really anything every killer can use equally well (except maybe Deadlock, that's pretty universal), but that doesn't mean there aren't options.
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I've said for a while that Better Than New should feature a separate modifier for vault speed. As that perk is right now, it offers speed boosts to anything except generator repair- and except chase. If someone gets chased after being healed with BTN, it'd be nice if they got something for it, and increased vault speed until they're injured seems like it'd be a good fit.
As a bonus, it couldn't stack with Resilience, so you don't have to worry about it stacking to crazy speeds. All around a win, even if it requires a little teamwork.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
That effect actually brings more RNG for scourge hooks.
With this you need other scourge perks, but because of this perk, you will probably lose your best scourge hook spawns.
What might be good:
You start game without scourge hooks, but each time survivor is hooked for first time, that hook becomes scourge hook for rest of the game.
Removes random effect from scourge perks and promotes going for different survivors.
Well, yeah- they're meant to have RNG. This change isn't supposed to eliminate that, it's meant to make up for bad or mediocre RNG, and let you play with more of the map available.
I don't think the killer should have that much control over the placement of scourge hooks, but I do think the ability to cycle them around would be both useful and in keeping with their intended effect.
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@Canas said:
The perk's still beyond broken since it's leagues easier to activate than Mettle of Man while serving the exact same purpose: giving survivors a third health state. Now if four survivors bring this perk they'll be getting up to 8 health states in total from this, now consider how much time it takes to chase and even hit a survivor.
Let's be generous and say it takes 30 seconds to score a hit (and that's still being far too generous considering how atrocious the map design is) then we're talking about 4 minutes of additional repairtime for survivors. It's possible to repair all of them in just 5 minutes.
This perk is still far too strong. The least they should do is disable it entirely once the final gen pops.
Doesn't that take kind of imply that every single attempted Dead Hard actually blocks a hit, and isn't used too early/late because of latency or the killer baiting it out?
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395881#Comment_3395881
Perhaps I wasn't clear with Buckle Up. I know it got changed but what I should have emphasized is that the perk got reworked because the main selling point of that perk is now base kit survivor information. That's kinda messed up when you think about it in terms of "information warfare".
I think we both know what efficient play means without defining the term explicitly. We might not even agree what that means exactly but when you have people that go for try hard wins every round you can look at their loadouts. You know what is try hard and what is not.
As an example : Dead Hard, Adrenaline, Hope, Resilience + green medkit = tryhard.
The joke is that there is no world's best doctor. Nobody cares because it is a "washed out" statistic overwritten by a mediocre Blight. In a way it would be like asking : what individual makes the most money shining other individuals shoes?
Information warfare...?
And no, I didn't know what efficient play meant. But, if you mean tryhards, then sure- 90% of perks in the roster aren't going to be deemed viable for being a tryhard, but that's obviously not the line for viable in general. Tryhards aren't every single player and nor should they be, that isn't required for winning or playing well or enjoying the game, it's just the way some people prefer to play. More power to them, but the game shouldn't be balanced around them exclusively, and balance changes therefore shouldn't be viewed through that lens either.
There probably is a world's best Doctor? At the very least there are dedicated Doctor mains, and their experience of the game isn't 'washed out' or secondary to the experience of a Blight main. If a perk is changed to help them, and the mains of players who don't play the top tier or play like a tryhard every match, that's a good perk change. It doesn't have to appeal only to tryhard players to be considered good, viable, or worthwhile.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395863#Comment_3395863
-"Something doesn't have to compete with the absolute best of the best options to be considered good, worthwhile, or viable, anyway."
This idea is just not true if we're being honest when you are considering efficient play. You're welcome to prove me wrong and become the world's best Doctor Mains that competes with "mediocre" Blight players.
-"To your last point - obviously you don't need most information tools, that doesn't mean they aren't useful, or otherwise nice to have."
This I will agree with. I've been saying for a long time killer deserves more perk slots because that's the advantage SWF has. The hud update gave survivors a ton of information that made many older perks pointless.
What's the point of Buckle Up when you can clearly see how much recovery a survivor has left before they hit 99%?
I assure you I'm not being disingenuous or intentionally oblivious here, but I genuinely have no idea what you mean by "efficient" play. The only definitions I can think of have very little to do with perks at all, so you're gonna have to define that one for me, unfortunately.
As for your example, I don't need to be the world's best Doctor main that competes with Blight mains, I just have to be good enough at my killers to maintain an average winrate. That's literally the only bar that exists for whether something is viable without any other contexts in mind.
Side note, Buckle Up doesn't do that anymore, Buckle Up gives Haste + Endurance on pickup.
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@Defend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394995#Comment_3394995
When a perk like CoB only gives a 4.16% bonus towards regression (an additional 3.75 charges off of the gen, if you get full value), it really should be looked into. Same for OC since it takes 4 and a half minutes to regress a generator. I'm fine with changing what they do or them being completely different perks, but it shouldn't remain as is.
for me it's less about regression and more about looking at perks that are redundant.
Don't forget that CoB has a secondary effect that wasn't touched.
Overcharge, though, is definitely looking a little worse for wear. Whenever they have some spare attention to give, it'd be worth completely reworking it, I think.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395849#Comment_3395849
-"Efficient killer play does in fact involve being aware of where survivors are and using information to track them down"
So this is going to be better than BBQ+Lethal on Blight? There's no combination you would use Gearhead instead. Also that being plenty of info you would not likely need another info perk.
Some perks are a 8-10 out out potential usefulness and other perks are a 4-6 by comparison. Gearhead's potential is more in the 4-6 range when you think about what it can do overall.
Also just as a generalization- Killers have been finding survivors on or around generators since 2016 with great ease. It's one of the game sense skills that takes a long time to develop. It's one of the things that separates me from a friend of mine who only dabbles in playing killer. He might know how to run loops but he doesn't know how to find people without aura highlights. He misses the nuance of birds and other signs that someone was or is here.
On Blight? No, I'm pretty sure Blight's Rushes count as Special Attacks, right?
Something doesn't have to compete with the absolute best of the best options to be considered good, worthwhile, or viable, anyway. Most people aren't playing comp-level Blight with the best possible loadout, they're just playing the killers they enjoy at a more standard pace of play, and for that Gearhead is going to be a nice option. Will they pick it? No, probably not, people get comfortable with what they know and even players who aren't trying their absolute hardest tend to gravitate towards whatever's obviously strongest and requires the least thought/effort to use, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
To your last point - obviously you don't need most information tools, that doesn't mean they aren't useful, or otherwise nice to have.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395835#Comment_3395835
-"It gives you more up-to-date information than Surveillance does, at the cost of being on a timer, which I think is a fair trade that puts the two in basically the same position."
What if the survivor doesn't get a skillcheck for 20-30 seconds?
What if the survivor only makes great skillchecks?
I can remember back in the days of old ruin where somtimes I would only get 1-2 skillchecks while finishing a generator.
-"Gearhead is similar, which honestly looks like it's going to be pretty nice with this change, I don't think that's stupid at all."
Gearhead is a perk that will work "fine" in Mid range MMR where nobody will care that it is used anyway. For anyone who wants to play killer efficiently it will not be "worth a slot."
Sure, that's a possibility. But if they do hit a good skillcheck, that's more impactful and up to date information than seeing the generator's aura change with Surveillance, and since skillchecks aren't that uncommon and even really strong survivors still hit goods about as frequently as greats, that makes the perk pretty solid.
This isn't a new effect we have to theorycraft about, CoB has done this since release and it's been pretty useful information the whole time. People just didn't notice or care because the regression was why they were running it, so they wanted people not to touch the generator to begin with.
As for Gearhead, I have no idea what you're basing that on or why it'd be relevant. Efficient killer play does in fact involve being aware of where survivors are and using information to track them down, and efficient killer play for a lot of killers on the roster absolutely involves getting basic attacks, so there's no reason you couldn't run Gearhead at higher than "mid range MMR", however you'd calculate or define that.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395601#Comment_3395601
If you're looking at what the perks do and only looking at the information they give for generators then there is one very clear winner (it's not gearhead by the way - that's a very stupid rework of that skill). The only time you might want to use nerfed CoB over Surveillance is when playing Nemesis for the"EXPLOSION NOISES" (thanks Mr. Torgue).
But it's a moot point because nobody cares about Surveillance without considering gen regression. This patch is going to make is so that you play killer and ignore the generators completely.
Kicking becomes worthless. Every gen regression perk becomes worthless.
Killer will immediately move to "chase" saving perks and" End game" perks. And then the devs will be like hey why is nobody using these perks we nerfed by 75%?
I disagree, I think there are benefits to running Call of Brine over Surveillance. It gives you more up-to-date information than Surveillance does, at the cost of being on a timer, which I think is a fair trade that puts the two in basically the same position.
I know I for one am going to be using Call of Brine on stealth killers who can approach the generator without being seen. Personally, the loud noise notifications are an upside to me as well, since it means I'm less likely to miss the information the way I might if I'm not actively looking at the generator in question for Surveillance.
Gearhead is similar, which honestly looks like it's going to be pretty nice with this change, I don't think that's stupid at all. Get a hit, get up to date information on which generators are being worked on for thirty seconds, that's pretty nice.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395689#Comment_3395689
The reasoning is "because the developers said so".
What?
No, I'm asking you how the FOV increasing would affect stealth. Not why that would be a bad thing, how that effect would actually happen.
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@Adjatha said:
It actually has to be EARNED, instead of just given out for free all the time, like it used to. So, that IS a nerf.
However, the 'earning' is no longer ' performing a rescue. Now it can be 'just get hooked,' which is a pretty poor sort of earned activity.
Also, every rescue charges up 2 possible Dead Hards, which means that the total number of Dead Hards per match is still wildly out of control.
Which does mean, of course, that the perk wasn't actually nerfed all that much.
Certainly not as much as it needs to be to stop 75% of the player base from using it.
And CERTAINLY not nearly as much as killer perks have been, are, and will be nerfed.
And that, folks, is what the loudspeaker effect looks like. When one side of a two-sided game has 4x the volume of the other, they get treated with light touches and anything significant gets walked way back.
How does every rescue charge up two Dead Hards? You only get it for being unhooked, not doing the unhooking.
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I don't think the Exhaustion is necessary from the angle of what Dead Hard now does, but that's only one of the reasons Exhaustion exists- it exists to limit the uses of a specific perk, and to prevent those perks from being used together, at least easily.
From that angle I think DH still having Exhaustion attached to it makes total sense. It's not hard to see that chaining together a Sprint Burst into a Dead Hard, or a Dead Hard into a Lithe, would be very impactful, even if the chain can only happen twice- because it's very strong those two times, and the other Exhaustion perk is still there for the rest of the trial without being deactivated the way Dead Hard is.
It's like how Iron Will has an Exhaustion element. Being able to chain together every perk in the game, without any restrictions beyond what any specific one perk has to activate in the first place, would create some pretty busted loadouts.