jesterkind
jesterkind
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A lot of replies are focused on how toxic the voice comms in this game would be, and they're entirely right, but there's another element that would need to be addressed- namely, voice comms wouldn't actually solve the problem you're trying to fix here.
A player who is doing their tomes will continue doing their tomes even if someone in the voice chat starts telling them not to. In fact, they'll just mute that person. That, mind you, is the best case ideal situation, and not one of the far more likely negative outcomes where the person doing their tomes starts yelling back, or doesn't have a mic to begin with, or doesn't speak the same language as you, or starts sandbagging out of spite, or...
The divide that you're describing here, between those who only care about winning and those who want to play the entire game, tomes included, wouldn't even come close to being solved with voice comms. It's simply not going to work, the language barrier alone would prevent it from being a decent solution and that's far from the only thing standing in the way.
In terms of how to fix that divide, I'm not sure. Some kind of method for finding like-minded teammates in game could be a good bet, that's probably the most workable of ideas; this isn't the balance conversation (where comms still aren't a fix, ftr), after all, this is the conversation of not liking when your teammates are either actively trash or not working with the same goal as you. The bitter pill to swallow is that this problem is just inherent to queuing up alone, and is present in every other game too, including the ones with comms. Better ways of finding non-random teammates is less intrusive and more impactful than providing tools to harass the random teammates.
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Considering you can do both, I don't think it's that big of a deal?
I think a lot of these challenges aren't meant to be completed ASAP (even though that is how I do it too), they're meant to be ticked up in the background while you're playing normally. So, you get a few unhooks across two or three survivor games, then when you swap to killer you get the few hooks needed to finish the challenge.
Plus, like the above response said, it's good that survivors actually have a way of finishing these instead of it being a killer challenge.
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If I recall correctly, these addons were nerfed a little while back, so they're not really evil anymore. Solid, but not something to get mad at if you see it on the survivor side.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426218#Comment_3426218
Oh but she IS the problem. Like sure she is not the only one that can play 3gens. But she is by far the best with quite a noticeable margin.
Sure if she disappeared from the game, the problem is not entirely gone. There's still knight that can utilize the same thing with quite a bit less of a success. And even after knight there are still hag and trapper and maybe even fast moving killers like blight/wesker/spirit.
But all those other killers after spirit will not be able (considering kicking perks nerf) to hold the game hostage for super long time. They will be able to trade it for several hook states, but they won't be able to just hold it forever.
Skull merchant can hold them. That's why she (and maybe arguably knight, possibly maybe even hag in lower-skill environment) is the problem and why solving her alone would be good-enough fix for the whole problem. Also considering things like holding 3-gen should be viable (but counterable) tactics that gives killer something (while not allowing him to hold whole game indefinitely)... You should probably not even try to fully fix this "problem"
Can I ask, sincerely, why?
Why can Skull Merchant "hold" these generators in a way no other killer can? What is it that's actually happening to make her ability to patrol 3-gens and harass survivors away that much stronger than other killers?
I'm asking sincerely, because whatever it is, it's sure as hell not obvious on paper. I'm lucky enough not to have faced this personally so I'm engaging in good faith by assuming there must be something I'm missing.
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One thing that I thought of when the topic of accessibility came up from the visual terror radius was that, it'd be nice if you could see the pistons of the generator moving through walls when you're within the range that you'd normally be able to hear it, on the killer side.
So, you see the aura mapwide, but when you're close enough that you should be able to hear it, you can see the pistons moving as appropriate. This covers both for those of us with poor hearing (raises hand...) and for when audio breaks and you end up not being able to hear it even though you should. Maybe a little flashing or sparking visual in time with the sound of active repair? Not sure how you'd convey that, but it'd be nice too.
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Part of the problem here is that people are taking it as a given that she is the problem to begin with.
What does her kit actually do, with regards to 3-gen scenarios? The lethality and stealth aren't really present since people want to remove the drones, so she has information and a little bit of stall from the process of removing the drones. Right away, then, we can see that someone like Doctor would be just as good if not better; he has more consistent stall from Madness 3 + to a lesser extent the Madness skill check shenanigans, and while he has the information less frequently, it's still plenty present. If it is the stealth and lethality, then every killer who is better at either of those elements (which is all of them to have those elements to begin with, albeit not at the same time) would be just as good as well.
I think everyone, devs included, should take a long, hard, serious look at 3-gens to begin with. If Skull Merchant can hold matches for 40 minutes, that means almost any killer in the game could if they wanted to, and that means that 'fixing' Skull Merchant isn't going to actually address the problem. Best case scenario is that it lurks in the background until another killer that's slightly better than average at it (and is perceived to not be good at anything else) comes out, and at that point we're starting the cycle all over again.
I'm not saying don't change SM, she's a little on the weak side and parts of her kit certainly seem lacklustre in comparison to others, but I am saying don't assume she's the entire problem and that changing her means it goes away.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425413#Comment_3425413
She IS different.
The time it takes to remove a Drone is critical. It let's her use perks like CoB, Overcharge and other similar perks.
If you don't disable the Drone, she's fast, you're Exposed and she knows where you are. She can also have addons to make doing gens harder.
If you disable the Drone, she's fast and she knows where you are. There's nothing stopping her from just putting up another Drone and kicking the gen again.
There's CLEARLY something wrong with her since she's the only Killer that holds games hostage via 3-gen. Sure, other Killers CAN hold a 3-gen. Nobody does it like Dull Merchant, nobody can time out games like she can.
CoB/Overcharge were nerfed, though? I'll admit I haven't tried using them for 3-gen stuff since I find that playstyle immensely boring, but they shouldn't allow killers to stall generators forever like they used to and there really isn't anything that could take their place to be "similar". Plus, if you disable the drone, there is something stopping her from dropping another one- if everyone's alive and everyone disables a drone, she doesn't have any more to drop. If not everyone's alive you'd lose a 3-gen scenario against any killer (and she probably wasn't gunning for it straight from the start), and if only you disable a drone she's really not that fast.
The part I'm really curious about is how you know she's the only killer that holds games hostage with 3-gens, though. Do other killers actually try? There's killers who would categorically be better at it than she is, by virtue of being the top killers in the game, so that can't possibly be true.
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@MrPsych said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425356#Comment_3425356
I failed to address 3-gen mainly because I feel it's a flaw that's inherent to the game concept and I'm not certain myself as to how to fix it. I toyed with the idea of having an extra generator but then I feel that would make the role of killer even harder since you'd have more to patrol. Ideally, a solution to 3-genning should ideally be organic and not create hassles for either the survivor or killer. You could change some maps to help in that regard by tweaking the generator spawning a bit but I feel it won't always be possible without making some maps bigger.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425365#Comment_3425365
Okay, saying that only the SM can 3-gen was incorrect. The problem is that people quickly found that holding a 3-gen was the easiest way to win with the way the Skull Merchant works. Powers in the game usually are usually designed in a way that you'll want to be on the warpath and seek and destroy the survivors. Even more passive killers like Hag or Trapper typically require you to move out of your way away from the gens in order to prepare the battlefield to catch survivors off guard. But SM has no incentive to go out and prepare traps, you could just find the 3-gen setup the map has and just hold it down until survivors die of boredom. Why try to do any better if this bare minimum effort is enough to win?
Either the game finds a way to break out 3 gen setups altogether or her kit must be retooled so that doing the bare minimum will not get you a win.
That's kind of the problem, though. For all killers, barring maybe a few exceptions, finding a 3-gen and defending it is the surest way to victory, and unlike camping and tunnelling there's not much survivors can really do against it. Skull Merchant is in no way unique in this regard, it's just that something about her kit made certain players want to 3-gen for whatever reason. Maybe to annoy the opposition or something?
It's not even that she's weak, Sadako is weak and she doesn't have a reputation for holding 3-gens for 40 minutes. It's not that there's no other way to use her power because there absolutely is. I genuinely cannot grasp why SM has become the poster child for this issue...
Regardless, I would personally say that if SM is complained about this much, and we understand that she's really no different from almost any other killer in this regard, it should stand to reason that the game does need to move away from 3-gens as a viable option. There's no way to avoid it otherwise- make SM somehow incapable of doing it and those who want to will just move to the next best thing, since she's not actually that much better at it than the alternatives. Again, unless there's something I'm missing, I'm always open to the idea that there may be.
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I'm also wondering what that was
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@MrPsych said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425315#Comment_3425315
I don't really think the problem is about tastes, it's that none of these killers have the ability to routinely stretch games to the 30 minute mark. Can the Skull Merchant be successful without 3-genning? Yes. But will the playerbase do that? Hell no. If people can win with little effort, they will 100% do that, even if it means the game will take forever and be taken hostage by the killer. Not to mention that because of the us vs them mentality with this game, some people will revel in their ability to waste 30 minutes of the survivors' time, thinking they are doing the world a great service (pfffff).
The current problem with the SM 3-gen strategy is it has no worthwhile counter if the killer will not commit to a chase. With 4 drones in hand, you'll always have spare drones to replace a hacked drone. If the survivors have a claw, they likely will not be able to work on a gen since they will easily be found and brought down. It's a poor interaction between the survivors and the killer power, especially compared to say Plague's, which have a much more interesting dynamic. You full heal, but on the flip side you give the killer a means to get an incredibly deadly attack for a few seconds.
Those killers all could routinely stretch games to the 30 minute mark by obsessively holding a 3-gen, yes. Why would Skull Merchant be able to do that, and not those killers?
You don't even need a power at all to hold 3-gens, really, though not having a power at all is technically weaker than SM so I'll grant that. Legion can patrol the generators faster and keep people injured, Doctor has comparable information to SM and interacts with gens directly, Plague can infect both generators and survivors + has a ranged attack to pressure with too... Oni, maybe not, since he's more of a burst-threat, but the other three absolutely can.
I still don't know why Skull Merchant is seen as the issue over 3-genning in general. Is it just that people only see proper 3-gen strats from her, or something?
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I think I've seen it exactly once, I only noticed because someone went from Healthy to Broken then Healthy again and I couldn't figure out what the hell happened there.
Turns out they used Blood Rush because it was the end of the game and a reason to use it naturally hadn't come up, lol.
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I don't play survivor enough to know exactly how you break a 3-gen in situations like this, but I can't imagine it's much different for Skull Merchant versus any other killer?
At least not now, since they changed how her traps work. If you disable a drone she can't just place it back until the claw trap it's associated with is removed, so everyone takes a drone and plays the 3-gen normally.
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DBD is one of the few multiplayer games that's really kept my attention longterm, and there's a lot of reasons for that.
I guess to pick one... the actual act of engaging with the game has only improved since I've started playing. The HUD updates, the bloodweb improvements, the challenge tracker, visual updates to a lot of maps (I was around for old Gideon's, and while we can talk a lot about the balance of the new version, god it's nice to be able to actually see in that map), things of that nature. User experience has only been getting better-- and honestly, balance isn't that far off, even if it's slower than I'd like.
DBD is a good game, at the end of the day. Not a bad one coasting on licenses or a bad one with no competition, just an actually good game.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425212#Comment_3425212
Def agree on overcome cuz, yeah. Sprint Burst is hard to say tbh, but there def has been situations where that would be useful, like situations where walking is a decent idea anyways and this sb would just make that better. But I don't like the running idea, as that is a prerequisit as meaningless as lithe's current one
The prerequisite for these perks isn't really meant to be a genuine barrier, just a safeguarding ability. Lithe's prerequisite is perfectly adequate because it differentiates the perk from Sprint Burst (+ allows you to run normally outside of chase, which SB doesn't let you do, another downside often overlooked) and adds a little bit of flavour to how you approach chases, it's not meant to make Lithe literally unusable outside of specific scenarios.
Same with the running for Sprint Burst. If you want to give it more prerequisites than it has now, the goal would be to change how the player approaches chases - here a running mental calculation of at what point they need to start running for Sprint Burst to save them, when the killer is approaching - as well as to curb any unpleasant edge cases like survivors that run at the very last second on generators. An element of risk, and an element of tactical thinking. That's what these perks are designed around, as far as I can tell.
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I'll mention for the record the obligatory statement that I don't think there's anything really wrong with most of these perks.
But, to tackle your ideas... Overcome is the only one that could possibly warrant changing, with Sprint Burst as a sort of nebulous 'maybe' if it does turn out to be too problematic. Your pitch for Lithe could certainly make a decent perk on its own, so in that vein I have no problem with it, but I see no reason to make it how Lithe functions. Your version of Dead Hard carries too much risk, where the current version has just enough.
Overcome... I do think your pitch would be better for the game than the current version, Overcome is definitely the only problematic design out of the Exhaustion perks, but I worry that it'd be too difficult to work coding-wise. It'd be pretty easy to end up with kind of a buggy mess that only properly functions at missed hits near windows, but there is the option of just having it function on basic attacks instead. Less useful, but more stable. I dunno, maybe they could make it work. The only change I'd be fully on board with here, if so.
Sprint Burst, I think your change is completely overkill. Having to walk for three whole seconds would make the perk basically useless, the situations you outlined really aren't common enough to properly warrant taking an entire perk. However, I would say that having to run for two seconds or so would be a more fair restriction; you can't use it to rocket away from a generator at the last second, or bait the killer into missing a swing, but you can still use it if you have advance warning on the killer's approach at a generator, and in regular chases with no real change in effectiveness. Even then, I think it's premature to say that's necessary, Sprint Burst has been perfectly fine for the majority of its existence at this point.
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The rocket launcher is such a bad fit for DBD, tonally, I'm fully against that idea.
Regarding how well Nemesis was translated- I really don't think it's bad at all. In fact, I think it's about as good as you could hope to get. Let's look at what Nemesis does, and what options there'd be for translating into a power. I count four; heavy weaponry, tentacle/infection, sprint, and leap, with a few minor things that could be added for flavour like his stun or the tentacle pull.
Two of these are out of the question right off the bat. The heavy weaponry is a bad fit tonally, and the leap would have to be so watered down and adjusted to function with DBD's map design that it just wouldn't function as an accurate representation of his movement in his source material as well. That leaves the sprint, and the tentacle/infection. Both of these are viable, in that they'd work in the game, and both of these are reflective of Nemesis in RE3 (at least, the remake), but I'd argue that the tentacle is still the better choice, for one reason; it's a less satured mechanic. Only one other killer at that time had an infection mechanic and it functioned completely differently, not to mention the tentacle whip being a pretty unique form of short-range attack. Balancing Nemesis fitting in DBD, being accurately represented, and being something new, I think they did the best that anyone could have.
For the specific buffs posed, I think adding Haste is dicey when it stacks with other forms of Haste and - unlike Skull Merchant who got similar buffs - it's permanent, so I'm not sure about that. I'd also say if you wanted to mimic Nemesis walking through walls, let him just do that: walk through breakable objects, at the cost of movement speed and a cooldown. Even then, I don't know how necessary it is, I'd much sooner give Myers that ability.
All in all, personally I'd say Nemesis isn't in that bad of a spot - he's one of the stronger killers in the game, after all - but he could use some help. Improve the zombies, overhaul his addons, maybe adjust his infection gain for tier 1, that kind of thing.
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I'd be in favour of the lullaby, absolutely. It could be something quiet and subtle, which would leave survivors having to pay attention to hear it, as opposed to something like Huntress' loud singing.
It's not the only way to improve Deathslinger, but it is one of the good options imo.
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I get the impression you don't like Exhaustion perks that much. From what I can see, all the ones you nerfed are ones that provide a speed boost, except Smash Hit, and I'm not sure I understand the purpose. The nerf to Sprint Burst doesn't seem like it'd achieve anything beyond annoying people, and the new version of Lithe seems totally fine but could easily be its own perk. This version of Balanced Landing would be unbelievably strong, way stronger than the version we have, so I'd be against that one.
Is there a wider issue you have with Exhaustion perks that might shed some light over what the intended effects of these changes would be?
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Distressing a niche perk that is meant to benefit powers that work off the terror radius (like the Doctor's, and I believe also Legion's?), and to help bolster other terror radius based perks; it only seems trash because you don't play Doctor and you think all the other terror radius perks are trash. It doesn't shine on its own, and I'm of the opinion that's okay.
Dissolution also isn't actually bad, though I do think it should have a flat distance requirement instead of a terror radius requirement. It's not the most powerful perk in the game but you'll notice it.
Assuming we're talking about perks that have an affect on survivors inside the terror radius, there's also Starstruck, which you didn't mention, as well as Infectious Fright. Those are good perks, I don't think many would disagree there. Coulrophobia is also okay at its job.
I think the problem is more that a handful of perks - the Presence perks and Septic Touch, mostly - are kind of bad, but the problems lay far more with those three specific perk designs rather than 'terror radius perks'.
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I'm not sure I see the benefit, though? Even in your examples, we have two situations where the visual terror radius is just allowing players not to pay rigidly close attention (only a problem if the information they get exceeds the amount they could acquire by just, not playing other audio, which it doesn't), and an edge case where the benefit may be there but truly isn't impactful. Knowing you're on the edge of the terror radius is something, don't get me wrong, but what matters most is if the killer is approaching, and at that point other noises don't drown it out nearly as much.
If there were an unfair advantage to be gained with the feature, arguments about use and abuse would be fair game, naturally. But... what's the advantage? It's information you're supposed to have anyway, with very minor edge cases as acceptable collateral.
Genuinely, what's the benefit? What do survivors get from the visual terror radius that they wouldn't get from good hearing?
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...Why would it be a priority?
And if the two were flipped, why would the hard of hearing accessibility change be less of a priority?
They can only do so many things at once, sometimes it's gonna be arbitrary. Plus, there's the (imo slight and manageable) element of an FoV change actually buffing killer in some ways, which the visual terror radius doesn't do (excepting for maybe Sadako's lullaby that can be kind of hard to hear, but like, she shouldn't have that so it's not really a problem with the accessibility mechanic).
I'm all for adding in a small FoV slider, but this is a really weird tone to strike with it.
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Personally, I'd be far more in favour of changing the traps in some way. As you say, there are some maps where there's no grass at all like The Game, or very little grass that's already quite thick, like Lery's.
I'm not sure exactly what that should look like, but in general, I think it's a better idea for Trapper to bend around updated map design, rather than forcing all maps to bend around Trapper's power. Maybe making them camouflaged slightly to the map they're on, or partially transparent? That'd help with brighter maps too so he's not at a huge disadvantage there.
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I think it's just better to add it to the perk, honestly, I don't think that ship has sailed at all. That, and letting survivors see their teammate's loadouts would be a great combo of changes.
I'd like to see more Head On in my matches. It's a fun perk, and means other Exhaustion isn't in play, probably.
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As others have pointed out, I think this treads on the toes of Undying a little bit too much- however, the idea of guarding hexes against being instantly cleansed isn't a terrible one, and I have a different pitch for how to achieve that.
What if a hex totem only lit up a dull when it actually affects something? Devour when it gets a token, Blood Favour when it blocks a pallet, Ruin when it regresses a generator (lol), and so on. Give the trap totems (or really just Haunted, the other two have other effects) a unique activation, and you're good to go.
That way you'd avoid survivors immediately finding and breaking your hexes, but would still allow survivors to go out of their way and cleanse dulls just in case the killer has hex perks.
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I don't think the challenge is all that bad, though I suspect it'll be deceptively difficult to actually finish. In terms of design, though, it's just another one of those "use the perk on the character and escape" challenges that pop up in these tomes, just with a slightly weirder and more finnicky perk to use.
It's weird they chose Power of Two for page one of the tome, though, that I agree with. That'd make more sense later on, and use like, Cut Loose for this page.
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I haven't tried Adept David since I got it last time, long before this newest patch, but it seems like playing stealthy and evasive might be the best way forward. No Mither, for all its hefty downside, does have some nice stealth effects and that's basically all you have going for you.
WGLF is a nice ace in your pocket if the killer slugs, but otherwise it feels like you're gonna be trying to play evasive with No Mither and aim to break chase from the killer with your two Dead Hard attempts. Very safe, very away from the action, which is amusingly quite unfitting for David himself.
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@xPrinceHarlequinx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373461/newest-update
You could bring self care in the circumstances they wont heal you. You can also bring resilience so you get a benefit from being injured. I think the fact that these 2 nerfs ruined your experience shows just how strong these things were and why the nerf was justified.
I wouldn't recommend Self Care on its own, but if you slap Botany Knowledge in there your self heal speed should be a reasonable time (assuming no Mangled), and you'll be healing your teammates faster too. Solid combo, but it is vulnerable to anti-heal perks.
You've also got Inner Healing for one or two heals in key moments, Resurgence to make one medkit heal you twice if you only heal after being unhooked, and Renewal for free heals after unhooks provided you heal someone else first, which, you should be.
Technically there's also Solidarity and Reactive Healing, but I'm of the opinion those aren't really worth running.
Plus, of course, stuff to make being injured less damaging, like Resilience or Iron Will. There's plenty of options.
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Most other games have passive information conveyance that DBD historically has not.
For an example I'm more personally familiar with, we'll take Overwatch. In Overwatch, if you're not on comms (or you play EU and not everyone speaks the same language), you aren't left with absolutely nothing. You can see your teammates through walls, you can see their health + ultimate charge, you and they can actively ping with a variety of specific callouts, there are passive character-voice callouts (EG, "watch out there's a sniper"), there's the death feed telling you who died and to what...
Now, obviously DBD can't have all of those things (and there's the relevant detail that asymmetrical vs symmetrical does impact this), but the general point is still salient. It's why the survivor HUD change was such a good one, it cuts down on the information deficit without relying on players being able + willing to convey that information themselves.
To carry this on, BHVR should absolutely add more. Bare minimum, I'd say the survivor-aura half of Kindred basekit and the ability to see your teammate' loadouts in the lobby and match details screen.
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@Patchouli_Knowledge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406982#Comment_3406982
Botany Knowledge isn't just for Self-Care. It also increases your speed of healing others AND picking up downed teammates by 50% (which is huge). I've been using Botany + Self-Care for a while now to replace my old CoH + Exponential/Shadow Step build and it has consistently proved to be a great build. I have to play a more active support role, running to teammates to heal them more, but I also don't need to look for a totem.
Oh, I agree, I use the combo myself- I'm just saying, if the complaint is that it's only a little slower than a medkit's self heal, it's kind of relevant that it's two perks to match one item, in that specific regard.
Trust me, I'm well aware of how good Botany Knowledge is. It's a very solid perk.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406907#Comment_3406907
That’s a few seconds short of any Medkit. Probably should be closer to 36 seconds.
Two perks to rival one item seems like a fair trade to me. If anything, it's kind of still too bad, considering some perks and items are almost one to one- like Saboteur and Toolboxes.
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If they reverted the nerf to Botany Knowledge without also reverting its (massive) buff, the perk would just become overpowered. It's already very good, it does not need to be buffed further.
One of the most underrated perks in the game, based on how often people talk about it as though 6.1.0 was an overall nerf to it...
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@FatallyIconic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406119#Comment_3406119
Self care is not good because most killers are running sloppy. Bond and Botany combined with Leader would be more effective.
True, but you are at three perk slots at that point, and that's kind of a lot to dedicate to just healing. Still, plenty of options, a best and/or most reliable pick will drift to the top eventually.
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Botany Knowledge is also a very solid option, the +50% may be lower but it isn't on a timer and works on self-healing too, which puts it squarely in the running.
Honestly, my experience so far has been that Botany Knowledge and Self Care is a pretty good combo for healing in general. BK ensures that SC heals you at a mostly acceptable speed (though it is vulnerable to Mangled), and also ensures that you heal your teammates noticeably faster.
Maybe not the best combo, but very reliable. Slap a medkit on there too and you're golden for sure.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404357#Comment_3404357
Yes within the last week it has been EVERY game as survivor. The new thing is bleeding out too. These face campers are just using you as bait to knock down survivors as they try to get you up. I play soloq only so COH was essential because there is only so many med kits you can have and no comms with other people makes it hard. Bot only that the face camping is terrible. Now since the new update dropped it has been nonstop crap. You spend more time healing then doing gens. Most matches we get 2 gens done before we all get hooked. Small boards are the worst. My husband started playing too and it wasn't as bad his first day now he got face camped every match yesterday. Towards the end though some killers were letting us go just so we can have a win. It takes forever to self heal but yes healing someone else is faster but when you unhook you are tunneled and that killer is getting two for the price of one. It is really that bad. Worst part is most survivors are ditching games too. So people are going to get frustrated and leave. I played killer yesterday and mopped the floor and I suck. People are reporting too that they are just dying on hooks their first time too because they just want out. So it's bad. The killers are now gen camping because we can't heal each other either.
I understand the abuse COH had in SWF but when you play soloq all the time you need it. I played killer against a group and it drove me nuts. If it is a problem with a certain area then they should be able to turn off the perk for a teir just like daily challenges, tomes, or rifts don't count. This update is getting trashed all over YouTube and showing how bad the camping and tunneling is. If people saw this that didn't have the game they definitely would not get it.
All I can say is that this has not been my experience.
You never needed CoH, you just needed a form of self heal, and those still exist. You just might have to use two perks instead of one to get good speed, which seems fair.
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@Aaronseuk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405045#Comment_3405045
And as I said, it is not only about healing per se.
The play style of killer has already changed, I have never been slugged so much, I have never seen so many hook suicide, nor disconnections.
Last night I was tunnelled for 7 out of 10 games, just because I gave good chase, flashlight save or whatnot.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again… the ‘feel’ of the game has changed. Being killed most games now isn’t a big issue, but if it’s like that all the time, people will drop off.
This bizarre and cretinous behaviour in the game/forum is ‘odd’ to say the least.
The fact is, if you play killer, don’t tunnel people out the game or slug everyone, which wastes their time.
If you play survivor, don’t pull the full toxic nonsense play thing.
And reading here, saying people should just get better and all that condescending nonsense, some people just aren’t that good at games but do enjoy being involved at time. Suggesting perks and so on can be helpful, but that doesn’t offset play style.
I will close my replies off by saying… this game doesn’t ‘feel’ very playable at the moment, and I and my friends aren’t playing it now. It’s uninstalled, game over.
And for all this constant trolling and nonsense here, well, they should get a handle on that, just like the unpleasantness in the game.
Just for the record, at no point did I say casual players should "just get better". What I said is that casual players, myself included, will sometimes have to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch when crafting their builds, because sometimes what they currently run gets changed to be less effective.
This is a relevant take because saying medkits/CoH getting nerfed makes things impossible for casual players just isn't true, there are still self heal tools available- you just have to be willing to start from scratch and evaluate your options. I genuinely don't think that's a condescending thing to say, I think it's a perfectly reasonable expectation but also something that people might not think to do if they get caught up in the moment.
I know I shouldn't take this bait, but also... what on earth do you mean by "bizarre and cretinous behaviour", exactly?
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@Aaronseuk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404357#Comment_3404357
‘Engage your brain’? Do you want to condescend anymore?
Well, let me adjust your brain; just because YOU haven’t seen it (yet), doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I do hope you get plenty of first hand experience soon enough.
I was speaking generally, not to you specifically. All I mean is that even casual players should, occasionally, have to re-evaluate what they bring into the game.
Like I said, those options for self-healing are still there. I've been playing solo survivor tonight, and I've not been doing any worse than usual- which admittedly, isn't great, I'm much more of a killer player. Just wanna get this Rift progressed.
For the record, I consider myself a casual player, so I'm not holding anyone to loftier standards than I hold myself. I do sometimes have to think about what to bring, that's not something I consider an insulting prospect.
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@Beatricks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404799#Comment_3404799
Information is great and in the right hands can easily win a game, but having teammates that don't realize the Killer is pretending to leave the hook so somebody rescues and then the first survivor is tunneled out from the match in under two minutes will lead to a loss even if you gave all SoloQ players every single information perk currently in the game. Something has to be done about matchmaking, there's no other way to fix what's going on right now.
Bad teammates are by no means a DBD only problem, so I don't think it's fair to call that the problem with SoloQ. The problem with SoloQ - the one that is unique and that can be fixed - is a lack of information + coordination.
So, with that in mind, it's pretty clear the devs are making some steps towards addressing the problem. That's what the survivor HUD update was.
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@Beatricks said:
Unfortunately, that is pretty much the case. SoloQ is basically a non-supported game mode at this point in time and the only fun you can have playing survivor is a SWF. With the recent HUD change and the player satisfaction survery focusing on giving people more opportunities to SWF, it is evidently clear that the dev team have completely given up on trying to make SoloQ at least the bare minimum of bearable and is instead looking to merge SoloQ and SWFing. Maybe check back in a year or two?
...Hang on, what would making SoloQ "at least the bare minimum of bearable" even look like if the HUD update doesn't count? That's literally what SoloQ buffs would be, attempts at making sure the information exchange between solo survivors is at least close to the information exchange between those on comms.
Genuinely, what else would you even be looking for?
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I don't know about all three being completely immune, that seems like a bit much. I do think that Resurgence could safely remove the status effect when you're unhooked, though- it's only twice and only affects what that perk does, so Haemorrhage would still be useful to killers otherwise without it completely annihilating the perk.
The other two, I'm not so sure about, but Resurgence could easily get that buff.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404641#Comment_3404641
My mileage with Kindred is that it occasionally feels nice but doesnt do much. I like Bond though,it helps me run into teammates less when I'm chased.
I find it incredibly useful for coordinating saves- in multiple matches it's been the difference between someone getting saved and someone progressing to second stage from first hook. Still, Bond is also good, all you really want is some kind of information.
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I can't say I've noticed my games becoming impossible- and I'd certainly consider myself a casual survivor, insofar as I don't play that role as often as killer and I generally don't care about my winrate or bringing in the most effective possible tools.
I'd definitely recommend experimenting with different builds. Depending on how you approach it, you may even have more fun trying out weird combos than a standard attempt at just winning the match.
(I'd say Kindred is nigh essential for solo survivor, though, probably moreso than Bond. Your mileage may vary, though!)
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404407#Comment_3404407
Yeah I feel torn on this. I'd be all for buffing the other boons if there was counterplay to them other than the perk slot for killer. How would you feel if there was a buff to each boon to be about where CoH is now? Would that be fine to have a limit on number of boons you can create (either a token system or killer can destroy).
I don't really see killers using shattered hope at all honestly since it is so situational (and it's not even that good honestly since they can just make a boon somewhere else)
I'm not really in favour of that- I like the idea that boons drag survivors off generators because they want to reset their totems, I think that's a good idea that should be bolstered. Having totems break on snuff, even if the perks were all strong enough (and realistically, completely redesigned to work away from the action, which would be required), would remove that aspect from ever really shining the way it could.
With CoH severely nerfed, there's a chance we might get that concept to work a lot better than it would've when that perk first came out. I would much rather see that given an honest attempt.
As for Shattered Hope itself... eh. It's a nice supporting perk for Pentimento, at least.
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Nope.
It's only even potentially in the running for discussion because of CoH. If that perk didn't exist, it'd be more clear why that's not a good idea- boons are designed around being in the middle of the action, for the most part, so the killer always has the option to snuff it - and the survivor always has the risk of it being snuffed. Shadow Step and Dark Theory are straight up useless outside of chase (more or less, the aura hide is somewhat useful outside of chase), and Exponential wants to at least be near the action so you don't waste a ton of time crawling to its range, so if those totems broke on snuff it would severely harm them in terms of strength and in terms of the back-and-forth slowdown of it being reset multiple times.
CoH broke that concept by being both worlds stronger than the other three, and shining most when it's set up away from the action, making going out of your way to snuff it not worth the time investment the way it would be were the totem right where you were already chasing someone.
Frankly, I don't know that Shattered Hope should exist period, even as a perk. It's a pretty hefty sledgehammer to take to the boon mechanic, and it's useless if there aren't any boons in play.
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Call of Brine and Overcharge were nerfed for balance reasons, not pickrate reasons. I think BHVR also had balance/health related issues with cycling survivors on the same Pain Res hook, too? Not sure on that front. Anyway; two of three were categorically nerfed because they needed to be nerfed, not for pickrate.
Killers have plenty of slowdown, especially if you look at perks that aren't directly tied to generators as well. That being said, toolboxes specifically really do need to be nerfed, and map design is still a problem.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404338#Comment_3404338
Isn't resurgence way better now? You can heal twice with basic medkit and it should be in 12 seconds, right?
Should be, though it is still vulnerable to haemorrhage. I'd like to see it clear that status effect on unhook, just to make sure it still functions- but even without that, it should be better now than it was prior to this patch.
@Aaronseuk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404338#Comment_3404338
I’m not sure this is all about ‘healing’ per se.
It’s what it has bought with it. Poor play style, unrelenting tunnelling, Slugging is already more pronounced, It feels more unwinable to moderate/casual players.
The fact there is no actual point to this game anyway, makes me wonder why they just didn’t make changes to a point system instead.
I really don’t understand why killers are so snippy.
Is that really different than before, though? I personally don't actually see that much tunnelling and camping (a little slugging, though), but the way people talk about it on here you'd think that happens to them every other match. This surely can't make that any worse, if what they're saying is true; and if it isn't, no reason to trust the reports of it getting worse, either.
While I have sympathy for the plight of casual players, I think even if you approach a game casually, you should be expected to engage your brain a little bit. Just pivot to another healing source, it's not like there aren't any left.
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It's not impossible to self-heal.
I think that's kind of important to acknowledge, given the wider argument being made here. Medkits still very much heal you, once or twice depending on addons, and you still very much have tools for healing yourself as a solo player. On the lower end there's the Self Care and Botany Knowledge combo (though never SC on its own, that isn't viable), then there's Inner Healing for speedy heals that require a little setup. There's also Resurgence for making your medkits last longer at the expense of only healing after you're unhooked, there's Streetwise and Built To Last for making medkits last longer at the expense of uneven charge distribution, there's Renewal for 'free' heals after unhook at the cost of needing to heal someone else first...
What you can't do is heal yourself super quickly a functionally unlimited number of times, and like, good? That was always a bad thing?
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/372767/why-the-mid-chapter-patch-is-a-good-one
The fact that the BEST part of this patch is something that doesn't affect gameplay one bit is so very telling. Sorry, cant get on this bandwagon. This patch is just a placation at best.
The best part of this patch is the death of ultra-reliable fast self healing, the bloodweb improvements are a second best.
Besides, even if it were the best part, that doesn't mean the gameplay changes aren't also good.
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I'm always consistently surprised that people don't see how strong Botany Knowledge is. Sure, it isn't overpowered in medkit builds anymore, but it isn't even that it went from overpowered to useless in that context- it's still very good, you just have to compensate for it with a second perk or extra charges (the latter being, admittedly, less of a thing now; still one speedy heal, though).
A flat 50% healing speed bonus that applies everywhere, with the literal only downside being that you have to work a little harder to use it with medkits specifically, is a really, really good perk. It shines much more altruistically, but it's not even as though you have to use it that way, it even works on yourself.
Medkits could stand to be more different through the rarity tiers, though, no real arguments there.
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A lot of folks have chimed in with trying to care less about wins, and I 100% agree with that, but personally I find that a good second step to take in addition to that is having some kind of goal that isn't strictly related to winning.
That can be something like improving with a specific killer power, or maybe crafting a gimmick build and trying to see how much value you can get out of it, stuff like that. Things which you can still derive some enjoyment and satisfaction from even when all four survivors walk out the exit gates- hell, honestly, the archive challenges are really solid for this, I've played multiple matches solely trying to do that and being pleased with a loss because I got some progress done.
I'd also say, five matches of a multiplayer game is a perfectly reasonable play session. I don't tend to play much more than that in one sitting myself, for any online game- they're inherently kind of stressful and managing that is key to having a good time, imo.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402402#Comment_3402402
Good news- so long as you reach Tier 69 using the Prime Pass, you get the 1k shards back, so you can get every future Premium Pass too
Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that. Either the next Rift, or the next killer, or a cosmetic... yeah, not bad at all.
Also: Nice.