jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435152#Comment_3435152
Except it's not the same. One is going out to find and chase another person because you know no one is trying to wait for you to leave to unhook the second you leave. This is.
Right, but- let me try and rephrase.
Normal value is this: One hooked, one chased, one going for the save.
The scenario you're describing, with two survivors hovering just outside the 16m range, is: One hooked, one chased, one going for the save.
Yes, the save happens quicker, but the chase starts quicker too. It's the exact same value overall. What camping would change on live is that it gives you more value, and I feel like an anti-camp measure should make it so camping gives you the same value, not more.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435147#Comment_3435147
So why should the killer be forced into intentionally taking a worse prospect?
They aren't. They're being "forced" into getting the same value they'd have gotten if they went out and chased another survivor normally.
Right now, camping can give you better results than taking that chase. That's literally what this system is designed to fix.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435130#Comment_3435130
So you give the second survivor a completely risk-free unhook and chance to reset and get back on gens. Gee whiz, what a totally not misplay!
I've seen you say this a few times, and the thing that's been bugging me is- unhooks aren't risky?
The way it's supposed to work is this: You get a hook on one survivor, you go chase a second survivor, a third peels off their generator to get the save, the fourth stays on the generator. Barring power-specific things any one of those others needs to do or just, players choosing to be inefficient for challenges or whatever, that's how it works.
So, survivor number 3, who is going for the unhook, is... not at risk. The situation you're outlining, where two survivors are off generators because one is hooked and you go off to chase one of them, leaving the other to a "completely risk-free unhook" is... exactly the same.
This unhook isn't meant to have risk specifically because it is occupying two survivors. That's how this works. If only one came to the hook and you intercepted, there's risk, because they should've led you away or confirmed you'd left before committing to the unhook. If there are two survivors involved, one survivor's job is to distract the killer- and this system is in place to stop killers who refuse to take that bait because just standing there is the better prospect for them. Chase the survivor baiting you and you aren't losing anything because you're still occupying three survivors, you're just not getting an additional hook state out of it. Which, y'know. Fine? Not a problem.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434921#Comment_3434921
Going through floors is going to be tricky to balance. On one hand there are maps/sections where being on second floor is like being across the map, no way for killer to get back to hook quickly unless they have teleport ability like Nurse or Hag. On other hand there are plenty that camp basement from just above to stop survivors reaching the stairs or will hook survivor below a drop down spot where they can easily grab the rescuer. They said they're aware and are going to keep an eye on the anti-camp going through floors so I'm sure adjustments will be made.
Same here. I'm wary, but I'm not against it, for the reasons you outlined.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434331#Comment_3434331
This is of course a possible issue, but honestly, between having both a griefer and a face-camper in your game and simply being on a map where the Killer can't avoid going near certain hooks, I think the later will occur way more often.
Midwich, Dead Dawg, RPD, The Game, Lery's and every mapgen that has the Basement in the Shack are all all but guaranteed to cause issues.
Oh I agree, one of the things I'm most wary about is it going through floors. Like I said, I also do think it should probably just stop outright if a survivor is in the radius, but I'm open to testing it and seeing how it works. For example, if another survivor being around slows it to a crawl, to the point you're never gonna fill the bar unless it was already at 99%, I can't be too mad at that.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434760#Comment_3434760
The patch that made killer easier to play against solos and harder to play vs SWF?
Also don't forget the patch right after that took away almost everything the killer got from the 6.1 patch. What survivor perks got a 75% nerf to compesnate killers getting a 75% nerf to CoB?
What was the net gain for killer? You have zero base kit perks.
Survivor has Base kit BT and will soon have basekit deliverance vs campers.
All survivors got massive info updates to make them play more like SWF groups by being able to see gen/heal progress.
What survivor perks got a nerf to compensate killers getting a nerf to Call of Brine? Circle of Healing.
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The only way you could present a basekit fix to gen-rushing is if you define gen-rushing to be something that can be done with the survivor basekit, and I really don't think that's a fair way to look at the topic. Survivors that don't have perks or items to speed up their objectives aren't doing anything wrong by sticking on generators- they don't have anything else to do unless you, the killer, make them do something else. Whether that's something to do with your power (RBTs, Lament Configuration, Vaccines/First Aid Sprays, etc), something to do with your perks (Hexes, mostly) or just good old fashioned chase, injure, down, hook, all of which require action from the survivors. Assuming nothing adjusting generator speed on the survivor side, your actions disrupt this version of gen-rushing.
Rather, I'd suggest that we should look at "gen-rushing" as the term for when survivors bring in tools that allow them to repair generators in the upper tiers of how fast the game physically allows it to happen, which obviously doesn't warrant a basekit fix. It warrants nerfing the tools that are used- and when I say tools, I really just mean toolboxes, that's the main issue. I've been playing more survivor recently to do some tome challenges, and it's genuinely disgusting how much value I get out of a Commodious with charge/speed addons, let alone when I've branched out into improving that item with things like Built To Last and Streetwise. That much gen progression speed is unholy, in my opinion, it really shouldn't be in the game.
Nuke toolboxes, adjust Hyperfocus slightly, and 90% of gen-rush disappears immediately. The remaining 10%, I would argue, is mostly due to survivors spawning all spread out on different generators, which could also be addressed in a way that might be more basekit-oriented; it's just not the main focus, or at least shouldn't be.
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I fully suspect it'll have problems on the PTB, but based on what we know and historical precedent for similarly big-step mechanics recently, I have decent faith it'll be smoothed out to something resembling your first option there for Live.
Side note, is the anti-camp measure in this PTB? I forget if they said when it'll be tested.
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I think Detective's Hunch already does this, I'm pretty sure I got an aura of an opened chest while toying with that perk last night.
I'd be totally down for expanding that to other perks too.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434281#Comment_3434281
Explain to me, why should the system just lessen instead of stopping when the Killer has a reason to be in the area?
At this point this is basically saying: "Don't break this rule, or you will be punished. However, if you are not breaking the rule, you will still be punished, just not as harshly."
I'm on the fence. I think stopping when a survivor is near would probably be wiser, and that's something I'm going to keep an eye on while testing, but I do kind of see why they might want it to slow- could be that they want to not have one brainless solo queue teammate mess everything up for the person being camped, could be they want a camped survivor to still be able to get off the hook at the last second if someone veers too close for some reason, could be that they're worried about griefing like PTB Reassurance.
It's one of the elements that it's hard to really speculate about until we see it in practice.
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@duygu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433264#Comment_3433264
except here, they clearly said what they think face camping is:
Face-camping is a term used to describe when a killer stands in front of a hooked survivor and refuses to move, or do anything really, usually for a large portion if not the entirety of the match.
a mechanic to address facecamping.
they're punishing all forms of being near a hooked survivor which will be a gigantic nerf to every single killer except nurse.
you can argue as much as you want whether this is a good change or a bad change, but it's essential to clarify what is actually being argued.
All forms of just standing next to a hook, not all forms of being near a hooked survivor in general. We already know they plan on this system lessening if you have a reason to be in that area, because there are other survivors there, so if there's a reason to be around a hooked survivor the worst case scenario is that you're less punished- and if it's that worst case scenario on the PTB I'd be pretty reasonably sure it'd get changed before live.
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Anything that allows survivors to work on generators while Incapacitated, even at a reduced rate, is a giant nerf to the Twins that they don't deserve. It'd be catastrophic for a survivor to be able to hold their power hostage and still contribute to the generator repair, it's already pretty bad even knowing that survivor can't be doing gens while holding Victor.
The fact of the matter is, Incapacitated should never have been put on a perk that every killer can use to begin with. It is only appropriate on Twins and on Pinhead, even the Huntress addon is a bad use of it; either the number's high enough for it to be broken or it's low enough to be useless, there's no middle ground. I think it's most useful to remember Incapacitated is not an effect that Twins use, it is The Twins Status Effect, and they also put it on Pinhead because it fit that use case.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434112#Comment_3434112
https://deadbydaylight.com/news/anniversary-gameplay-updates/
"In essence, face-camping in this context refers to gameplay where the Killer stands directly in front of – or otherwise in the immediate vicinity – of a Hooked Survivor. This allows them to easily interrupt grabs and prevent rescues, thereby killing a Survivor with minimal room for actual gameplay."
This is the specific problem they have.
Yes, exactly. Pretty much the exact quote I would've grabbed.
A killer sitting at 12m away, or whatever's just behind the smaller range you'd propose, is also causing minimal gameplay. They aren't being active, they aren't progressing the game and engaging with its mechanics, they're standing there. Staring at a survivor, waiting for a teammate to come and try to save. That's the same kind of scenario that the devs are trying to avoid here, based on their wording.
So, factor in the slight buffer area to compensate for players who want to game the system (while acknowledging there's always going to be players that play as little as possible, so it can't be too large; Kindred's aura reveal zone is pretty intuitive here), and the slight buffer for making sure survivors don't have to be absolutely on-point to counter it if killers are outside the new zone... and you end up with something like what the devs proposed here.
Now, I'm not saying this number is perfect. I can't say that, I haven't played with it yet. What I'm saying is that theoretically, in an abstract sense like we're talking about it now, it makes total sense for the number to be bigger than what is strictly considered facecamping.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434087#Comment_3434087
Except adding in the extra distance to factor in them taking a step back is completely unnecessary. The system exists solely and purely to prevent situations where the killer downs the survivor without them being able to actually successfully unhook the survivor. If the killer is further than 10m away, you will get the unhook off. Ergo, it solves the issue even if the range is reduced to 10m.
I'm pretty sure the system exists to stop the killer from standing near the hook and grinding the gameplay to a halt, based on the way it was described. With that in mind, the extra distance to factor in taking a step back is totally necessary- it sends the message that you aren't supposed to be doing this at all, and that you shouldn't be doing it still but slightly further back to give survivors more of a chance.
Plus, it's a little wiggle room so survivors don't have to have their timing absolutely tight and perfect to counter a tactic that quite literally requires the killer to do nothing at all.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434047#Comment_3434047
On some map, in clear view can be 50 meters away.
Face camping has always been right next to the hook. Originally it was standing right in front to prevent any unhook attempt.
If they prevent proxy camping they can be ready to get a lot of negative feedback (not to mention how silly the plays will look in game)
Yes, that's why I clarified to any distance you can stand and still get value - I'd personally calculate that at probably around ten metres, since that'd take a little over two seconds to traverse? Add in another second's worth of travel to compensate for killers trying to only put themselves very slightly behind that edge, and you get pretty close to the number the devs decided on. On paper it's sound, we'll have to see how it works in practice.
@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434047#Comment_3434047
But the gameplay isn't the same. If you refer to the stream and the news post BHVR made, the issue they have is face-camping specifically makes preventing rescues too hard. If the killer is that far back, you will get the rescue. They don't care about hook trading afterwards, that's not a problem.
See above.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434029#Comment_3434029
How is 16 yards "a little larger" than melee range?
Well, facecamping is just standing in clear view of the hook- it hasn't had the requirement of touching the survivor model or near about since they removed the ability to block unhooks. So, the typical range already isn't just melee range, it's any range where the killer can see value while just standing in one place.
As for the specifics of 16 metres, I don't know if that's too much! It'll depend on some other factors we don't know about yet, and we'll all have a grand time testing it on the PTB.
@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434029#Comment_3434029
Then it’s not facecamping anymore if they take distance back.
Does that actually change anything meaningfully, though? Because honestly, I don't think slightly-off-so-not-quite-facecamping is any better than "true" facecamping if the gameplay is exactly the same.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433878#Comment_3433878
In what universe is 16 yards "right next to the survivor's face"?
Don't you think the range would need to be a little larger than the typical facecamping range, to ensure that facecamping killers don't just take two steps back and return to business as usual?
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433888#Comment_3433888
The method exists because of the 16m range and because the bar still fills when another Survivor is nearby. How fast the bar fills only decides how effective the method is. The possiblity, no matter how small, of a bar-assisted self-unhook against a not-face camping Killer, doesn't need to and shouldn't exist, but with this system it does.
Yes, how fast the bar fills decides whether it's ineffective - IE, not a new method - or effective, which is why we can't comment too harshly on the range until we've tested it and know how fast the bar fills. It's entirely possible that 16m is too far, but we can't know that until we have the other half of the system to compare it to.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433729#Comment_3433729
We do though, they literally told us:
at 5 meters it fills up really fast
at 5-10 it fills up a bit slower
at 10-16 it fills up slow
at 16+ it doesn't fill up at all.
As someone else pointed out, I meant how fast the bar fills up. That half of the system isn't immaterial, it is vitally important for understanding exactly how the whole thing works.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433854#Comment_3433854
The mechanic is supposed to punish face camping, full stop. It is not supposed to provide a new method of unhooking against Killers who don't face camp, no matter how effective or ineffective.
If it were impossible to prevent face camping with a smaller radius we'd have grounds for discussion, but that's not the case.
The fact is that the mechanic goes further than it needs to, to fulfill its purpose and thereby harms Killers who aren't engaging in the behaviour that is supposed to be prevented and that is indefensible.
...Again, whether or not it does provide a new method of unhooking is going to depend on how fast the meter fills up, among other things. That's literally my point.
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I don't think lessening the self heal penalty is a good idea at all, that's in place for a reason, but I do agree the medkits probably should feel more distinct from one another than they currently do. I'm not sure exactly what to suggest to achieve this, but it is a shame that the literal only difference between them is a 5% difference per tier for altruistic healing speeds.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
"The bar will still take time to fill."
"We don't know the numbers, yet"
Doesn't matter, the mechanic is only supposed to punish face campers, as it is now it also affects Killers who don't camp.
The numbers would make a gigantic difference to that, though. If the bar takes a while to fill, you won't be punished for just walking away from the hook, even if the range is the full 16m as shown here. If another survivor being present slows it down to a crawl, you won't be punished for chasing near the hook either.
Not knowing the numbers isn't some feeble defence here, the numbers are going to swing this hard in one way or the other. It's not an element you can just ignore.
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...We still don't know what the numbers on the bar are, though. Honestly, I also have to say I'm very rarely as close to a hook as the first and second pictures show without other survivors also being around that are trying to loop me around their teammate, so even this doesn't look all that scary. Seems like the bar might fill up partway as you're walking away, that's all.
The only concern will be multi-level maps, and that's something the PTB will be testing, whenever it is.
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@NoHookDC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433164#Comment_3433164
You said the Killer should be teleported. Then you mentioned 'Perhaps a 15sec stun' before admitting no Killer would want that. Which is not admitting the idea is bad, just that Killers would not like it.
Even giving Killers a power cooldown after the teleport would be BS, because certain Killers, like Nurse, rely on their power to even move as a decent speed.
I still disagree with Emeal's idea, but to be fair, the stun was being raised as an alternative to the teleport, not something in conjunction with it.
It was also my idea, and a shorter stun is something I still think might have merit, though I won't commit to that until I've seen how the system functions on its PTB.
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Unironically, you probably just need a break.
Playing too much of any online game without regular breaks and moderation is going to lead to frustration and burnout, and that typically presents in the kind of attitude you're describing. Play some other stuff for a bit, see if that alleviates the feelings whenever you do come back.
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@Salty_Pallets said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433334#Comment_3433334
The only Killer I can think of with Permanent exposed is Tombstone Myers and maybe by some stretch Wesker and Plague. difference is that with Plague, you have to hit a survivor at least ONCE with your vomit and Wesker requires a dash and the survivor for some reason isn't able to disinfect. And these other killers have to at least see them SM gets it in addition to tracking where they are basekit.
Other killers don't get tracking, exposure, haste, "basekit" dissolution, and stealth, or if they do, it requires great effort on their end
Leatherface and Hillbilly. Also, it's not Tombstone Myers, it's the other iri, the one that isn't unbalanced.
I have to admit, I think this is the first time I've heard someone say that Skull Merchant is too strong just in general. I can't say I agree, the problem is that she has all those elements but they don't tie together well and half of them aren't actually that useful or strong. She does need some changes to help her better fill her niche, but that doesn't look like slamming her with heavy nerfs.
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@Salty_Pallets said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433275#Comment_3433275
It's namely the exposure thing. I don't understand why the devs would give ANY killer the ability to refresh exposure timers on survivors with almost no effort. granted I don't own her and never plan on buying her, but that fact alone is an issue enough to me, none of the other killers with long-term base-kit exposure can just refresh it mid-exposure. I guess she can keep the speed boost, but why give any killer so much versatility for what seems like little investment?
I mean, there are killers with permanent Exposed, I don't think that's really a problem?
The radius going through different floors, sure, that part could be a problem because her power is at least partially designed around survivors being able to disable it, but the Exposed duration refreshing is strictly weaker than the Exposed not having a duration at all.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433292#Comment_3433292
You are going to expect a Survivor to be unhooked by another Survivor, which takes that one off gens. It is absolutely a huge thing if a Survivor can unhook themselves.
But if you aren't camping and another survivor runs you to the hook, that survivor is taken off gens. Because you're chasing them.
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The more I think about this system, the more game I am to see it tested. Obviously a lot will depend on the numbers we don't know, and anything can change between PTB and Live if problems do arise, but they've given themselves a lot of leeway to let this system be impactful because the "fail state" for the killer isn't actually that bad if you aren't facecamping.
If you're trying to spread pressure and cycle through targets, you're going to expect that a survivor is unhooked anyway, pushing them from stage 1 to stage 2 or from stage 2 to dead doesn't really happen unless they've been left there for long enough that you only have to fend off survivors coming for the save for a few seconds. This is an area we don't know the effects of this system on, because we don't know the numbers; if it takes long enough to fill up that you have that spare ten to fifteen seconds, great, you can still punish mistakes just as well as live and nothing's changed. If not, that can be tweaked.
If a survivor tries running you near the hook, though, what's the worst case scenario? You occupy two survivors for however long it takes for that meter to fill up (meaning the generator efficiency with all survivors still alive is down a whopping 50%), and unless you get completely clowned on, you've got an injury + you're likely to have a down to replace the self-unhook with. That's a trade, those happen all the time in live and it's not actually a huge deal for you.
The better case scenario for survivors running you to the hook is that you down them before the meter fills all the way. That way it's definitely a trade at minimum and even has the potential to be two on the hook if you're on the ball; that makes running the killer to the hook a risk, not a guaranteed-value avenue for abuse like it would be if the system disabled powers or applied debuffs.
In short, I don't really see the value in trying to think of ways this system will be abused unless it's to make note of for testing later. We just don't know enough specifics and what we know sounds mostly fair. The only time this system ought to have a huge effect, on paper, is if you're putting all your eggs in one basket and don't have any hook states or pressure on the other survivors- in other words, if you're camping.
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@Salty_Pallets said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433262#Comment_3433262
That's actually a good point. maybe instead, she'd still get the exposed and Killer instinct, but if the claw trap connects, it's the normal 60+ second exposure, but if it misses, then it'd only be 75% effective? She would still get the exposed, but it won't be as effective if you're on midwitch and place a drone below a generator
Well, my question stands- how exactly is this power used?
I'm just not sure of the problem this is trying to fix. If it's just being able to expose through floors, wouldn't it be simpler to make it so the drone's range doesn't extend that far up and down? That way Skull Merchant can still set up her webs of drones to corral survivors towards and to give herself intermittent stealth (though not enough, that element still needs buffing), but survivors are always on the same level so they can always go disarm the drone.
With your idea, I'm not certain what the killer player is meant to be doing. You can't reliably use this version the same way as playing SM normally on live, since you're almost certainly going to be running a survivor towards your traps with a wall in the way so you'll get a massively reduced window to capitalise on the Exposed, and the speed boosts the devs gave her were meant to let her be more mobile and less defensive so removing that seems like it's going backwards to me.
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Well, it has to be a little broader than the typical facecamping range, otherwise killers are just gonna stand on the very edge outside of it.
Besides, I'm sure the specific number is one of the things they're gonna be getting feedback for when it hits a PTB.
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Unless I'm missing something, I'm struggling to envision a scenario here where Skull Merchant actually gets to have a power?
If it's a multi-level map, she doesn't get to have a power because survivors can intentionally trigger it through floors. If it's a map with high walls (so, most maps) she only rarely gets to have a power because survivors can keep a wall between themselves and the drone. If by some miracle the trap attaches, she gets Exposed, but doesn't get any speed boost so there's no guarantee she can actually use it. It seems like she'll get to keep the information portion of the drones, but only until it attempts to launch a trap, since in most scenarios the trap will hit a wall or floor and that disables the drone, so that's severely hampered from how it is now. The only thing that's left is the stealth, and that's currently the weakest part of her kit by far- without changes that's barely a power at all.
As a genuine question to better tailor my response, how exactly do you envision this power being used?
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@Seraphor said:
Aura reading perks are useless if Distortion is in play.
Healing of any kind is useless if Broken, Plague or Legion are in the match.
Deliverance is useless if you get hooked first.
It's almost as if perks are situational and have counters to them.
Well, sure, but these perks are already situational and already quite weak. I don't think it's absurd to talk about maybe helping them still fill their niche when that status effect is in play.
It's not as though the killer won't get value from their h... status effect, if those three perks are buffed. Unless something silly like complete immunity were implemented, they'd still be able to leverage the heal-drain on survivors they're actively chasing.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432943#Comment_3432943
Well idd love to know if you have an argument against it, its pretty solid thinking.
- We want to stop survivors having an absolute terrible experience being face-camped by malicious killer players.
- We want Killers who face-camp to learn how to play the game properly, instead of relying on cheap strategy that is terrible to one or two survivors.
these are my points, and I think my Solution of teleporting the killer away and giving them a short power cooldown is going to solve the problem according to the ways we want it to happen.
Not the person you're responding to, I know, but I can take a crack at giving you an argument against it.
On top of being unfairly punishing based on the system as described (since it does still tick up while you're dealing with hook swarms, just slower), there's also the fact that an effect that potent is going to be abused by aware teams. It's difficult to the point of being almost impossible to truly prevent that, which puts a limiter on how extreme the anti-camp measures can be.
To meet you halfway, however, since I do agree just tunnelling a survivor out again is probably going to be too strong, I think stunning the killer for a few seconds (maybe five, old DS?) if the unhook happens would give the survivor time to make distance and make chasing them a very unattractive prospect.
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Adding a slight delay before the effect whose name I despise spelling kicks in would help Solidarity, and I'd definitely like to see Resurgence clear that status effect when you're unhooked- it only happens twice a match, I'm okay with it being a little more potent.
Reactive Healing is a whole other can of worms, I don't know how you make that perk more useful at all, let alone in the face of... the heal-drain status effect.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432890#Comment_3432890
No, that's Torment Creek you're thinking of, Rancid Abattoir is this one.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XB444ALIOZI4/iconmap-frm-slaughterhouse.png
OH.
Okay, actually, I'm kind of in favour of this one being looked at. It's not as strong for the survivor side, but it's definitely kind of annoying a lot of the time.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432876#Comment_3432876
Yeah no i heavily disagree, the main building is a problem because of the amount of windows it has.
Even with a breakable wall, having 3 windows open like that is still just too much imo.
If they were to close off at least one of them, then i'd be more fine with it.
Wait, isn't Rancid the one with the collapsed grain silo main building? The one generator spawn in the open section, then a single window with a breakable wall to its left?
I always get them mixed up, I thought that was Rancid Abattoir.
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I was also slightly surprised by Rancid Abattoir being their second pick, but as long as Cowshed is being addressed, I'm fine with it. There's probably something they can see internally that makes that map look worse than it appears to the players, I guess?
Anyway, this community has a big problem with assuming that BHVR straight up don't care about any problem they aren't actively focusing on, and that's really not a reasonable assumption. There's more than two bad maps regardless of which two they picked, they can't do all of them at once.
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I think it's fair to wait and see how this functions on its PTB, whenever that happens. I don't disagree with you, but it's possible the bar slows to the point it may as well be stopped, and there's not much of a reason to complain about that scenario.
Still, the bar stopping does seem like the better idea. We'll wait and see.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432055#Comment_3432055
-"If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing?"
Maybe they are chasing the person that came for the rescue that they saw in the middle of the map. You need to remember that there is zero pressure on survivors that are not in a chase when the killer is busy.
Once upon a time survivors died much faster on the hook. I think it was 30 seconds faster per phase- if I am wrong someone will be sure to correct me. The theory when Horvath put that in the game was that : survivors would rush to the hook sooner to get the unhook. But that's not what happened. Survivors got +30 seconds to finish generators and then only left when they had exactly enough time to get the unhook.
Let's assume the worst and the killer is playing scummy. Two gens pop and in 15 seconds the survivor will hit the next hook state. What do you do as killer? You make them go for an unhook and force a grab. If you get the grab you drop that player immediately so you can grab the other player.
Most of the time when you play against vicious hook campers the solution to stop the camping is to unhook that player almost immediately. Almost always the killer needs to kick a generator, pallet, reset a trap or reload from a locker right after a hook event. If you're across the map chugging away on a generator then you missed the moment when the killer was occupied.
Survivors don't think like that because they don't play killer. They don't know that nearly 95% of the time I hook someone I always have some little errand to do. The other thing on survivors minds is that this is not "efficient" play; they should only unhook a player right before the next phase to optimize the team efficiency.
At that point it becomes killer efficiency vs survivor efficiency. If you're playing survivor efficiently against me then I will have to mirror that stance against you. I will camp and tunnel one player out of the game.
In as few words as possible :
It's a show of good faith to the killer that as a survivor you rescue another survivor quickly. If you're not rescuing quickly and you try to play efficiently then I will do the same and force the second stage. Then I will immediately tunnel the person off the hook because that is efficient play.
I want to leave the hook and be able to go chase other people. Often times people hide or run to areas that lead to a nearly impossible chase. If that's the way you want to play it then I will pressure you by forcing a hook state. You can preemptively counter me by rescuing your friend early.
If you don't do that then you are contributing to the "camp and tunnel" meta.
A lot of what you're describing here is just... normal DBD? You get a hook, you intercept someone nearby and chase them away from the hook, someone who is either on a nearly empty generator or a nearly finished generator peels off to save, and if the gen is nearly finished then they finish it first. Like, if they have time to finish their generator before saving (and they're not waiting until the last second, which, again, camping doesn't punish that, going and generating more pressure than they can undo punishes that), the bulk of that generator repair happened while their teammate was being chased, not while they're on hook.
I feel like I've got to be missing something because nothing you've described interacts with the new system in any way. If you leave the hook and come back to punish late saves... there are two outcomes. Either there's another survivor there and you're intercepting them, which means this new bar fills slower because another survivor is around, or there isn't and you being at the hook isn't generating any pressure because nobody was coming for that save anyway. If it's the second scenario, staying at the hook is just giving survivors free generator progress, regardless of this new anti-camp system. Hell, staying at the hook makes survivors less likely to come and save, which means they're more likely to stick on the generator.
If you want to be able to leave the hook and go chase, go do that, it's already the better idea. If survivors are sticking on generators and not going for a save that means you're putting them in a bad spot by generating more pressure while someone is still on the hook, that's cutting down on how many survivors are able to work on generators at that time. You're acting like any kind of camping that this system would punish is like, ever a good idea, let alone the best one. If other survivors are around this new system is meant to account for that, and if no other survivors are around you shouldn't be there to begin with, you aren't achieving anything by sticking near that hook.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432035#Comment_3432035
-"Gens before friends is how you counter facecamping right now, though?"
You have the situation backwards. If two gens pop while I have someone hooked then the survivor on the hook needs to pay for those gens. What happens if the killer trades 5 gens for 5 hook states? Unless those hook states are on only two players then they have likely lost the game. Things are of course different when you play Nurse and Blight but the are the exception that works. I will also remind you that the majority of the survivor player base wants to see those killers obliterated.
Gen rushing with the "gens before friends" mind set pushes the killer to camp. Why? They can't defend the generators but they can defend the player on the hook. If you leave the gens and give the killer a viable/vulnerable target then he might leave the hook to chase you.
Okay, maybe I don't quite understand what people mean by 'gens before friends', then, because the way you're explaining it doesn't really... make sense?
If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing? How would they even be able to facecamp in that scenario if they aren't already? They'd be across the map going for a chase while people stick on gens and not prioritise saving their 'friends'/teammates, right? That's what gens before friends means, it means not going for a save or being altruistic and sticking on your objective. Facecamping doesn't punish that because they're already not going for that save.
On the flipside, if the killer is already facecamping, then going for that save becomes a bad idea (unless it's an M1 killer with no ability to stop the save, but generally it's safe to assume a facecamping killer is one who can do something with their power to make saves more threatening). Therefore, 'gens before friends' becomes the way you counter that, you stick on generators and don't bother going for a save until the end, if at all.
The changes proposed don't interact with gens before friends in any way whatsoever. It's still the right call when killers facecamp because if you go over there the timer slows, and if you as the killer realise the survivors aren't being altruistic then a tactic that specifically and only punishes altruism won't function.
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Gens before friends is how you counter facecamping right now, though? So that's kind of backwards.
Gens before friends also means that while you have someone on the hook, you can go chase + down someone else and it's entirely possible the first survivor is still on the hook, so it's again the inverse of the camping situation.
The only thing you can punish by camping is actually an excess of altruism, where survivors linger and loop around their hooked teammate and don't go back to their generators.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431950#Comment_3431950
How many years need to go by, before we can consider it a slight? This isn't the first year this has happened. We knew about the survivor HUD plans a very long time ago, and back then people said "oh, well, just because survivors get something doesn't mean killers need to get something"..... but that was over a year ago, and we now have a roadmap for the next few months, which means about a 2 year timeframe without announcements for killers?
There's no amount, it'll never be a slight. At worst it'll be neglectful, not an active slight.
As for the roadmap, the visual terror radius wasn't on the previous roadmap. Things do get added if they make changes on the fly and don't have it concrete enough to share at that point in time, that's just how it works.
There's nothing wrong with advocating for good changes like an FOV slider, but it's a mistake to get so wrapped up in it that you start decrying other good changes because they aren't the one specific thing you've made your biggest concern. Again, killer players haven't been abandoned, there's been plenty of good changes for both sides recently, it's just accessibility specifically that survivors got one thing for and killers didn't.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431901#Comment_3431901
Gotten far enough into it? Sometimes we are given months, or a year advance notice for survivor changes. Why didn’t BHVR say something like “Hey, we’re also working on killer gameplay improvements, so stay tuned for more info in the future”?
Even if you want to argue survivor bots, we still have the survivor HUD, visual terror radius, and anti face-camping announcements, and nothing for killers.
Sure, they could've, but them not saying that isn't somehow an insult or a slight. There's a thousand things, even great things that the game desperately needs, they could have said. It's also worth mentioning that they tend to get given flak for saying "soon(tm)" so I don't blame them for only sharing when they have something concrete to talk about.
The visual terror radius is the one accessibility change they made, the other stuff is just... gameplay improvements, and it's not like killers have been lacking in that. 6.1 had a ton of killer gameplay improvements, and specific killers have gotten noticeable improvements too since then. Add in perk balance changes and map changes, and killers are far from left in the dust.
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Hawkins without a doubt. I liked that map, I'll miss it forevermore...
I also miss slugs spinning on the ground, though. Only part of the old locomotion that I think is a genuine loss.
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Seconding the other answers- it generally depends on context, and trends towards 'No'.
If you don't lose much time by doing it, because you already got a hook/down near that area or something, go right ahead. The 2.5% instant regression isn't much, but hey, it's something. If there's something immediately more pressing to do, like a survivor nearby or some information telling you another generator is actively being repaired, probably leave it.
That being said, perks that synergise with kicking gens are absolutely worthwhile to bring. Not even just regression perks, Nowhere To Hide is one of the strongest info perks in the game imo.
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Bare minimum, survivor bots should be counted as a bonus for both sides, not purely a survivor advantage. A survivor DCing robs you of another player to proc perks on, a kill to count for challenges, and any pressure you could get from downing and hooking them; it is better for the killer overall to get a bot to replace DCs, even if a 3v1 is technically the better outcome from a raw strength perspective.
Anyway, to the wider issue, I want to say this as gently as possible but I think you've kind of made this into a pet issue and interpret its absence as an active slight when it's really just that they haven't gotten far enough in it to announce it yet. It's not as though killer players have been neglected when it comes to overall changes, they've just done one accessibility change for survivors recently.
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If we do get accessibility related to hearing for the killer role, I somewhat doubt it'll be for stuff you'd hear in chase, or for tracking survivors. That's not to say nothing can be done, though, and I even had an idea myself;
Currently, the killer can see static auras of generators through walls. Those auras don't move, and don't reflect generator progress, which is mostly for good reason. However, I think it would be fair if the pistons would start moving on generators auras if you're within the range that you should be able to hear the generator.
This'd help both players with poor hearing (raises hand), and the times where audio breaks and you don't get information you should have had.
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When thinking about how to address Freddy, I personally decided on a few guidelines to shape my suggestions. First, no complete reworks or reversions; it was unpleasant and annoying for everyone who enjoyed OG Freddy to have that killer effectively deleted, and so it stands to reason it'd be unpleasant and annoying for everyone who enjoys current Freddy to have him effectively deleted. Second, I don't think it's necessarily healthy to focus on making Freddy "stronger", so to speak. He's not in that bad a spot strength wise, the problem is that he's kinda... boring? So up the interest factor and don't worry too much about strength.
What I came to is twofold:
1: Make pallets and snares both basekit, with a slight increase in the shared ammo pool to compensate. He'd swap between them like Clown swaps between bottles (albeit with a different button), or he'd ready the snare-placing state and press a different button to spawn a pallet where appropriate. The pallets are far and away the most interesting part of his kit, and I genuinely don't think it's OP for him to have both when the pallets are already limited by needing specific spawn points and are, frankly, not that strong.
2: Overhaul his addons to give him more phantom objects. His current addons are pretty garbage, so I think we have a good opportunity to completely overhaul what they do-- give him fake totems, fake chests, fake generators that look partially repaired, all of which vanish into smoke or explode into blood when survivors touch them and prompt a scream. Maybe have some of the fake objects inflict status effects, too; make the dream world actually matter, because until you've seen which addons he brought, you don't know what you can trust while asleep. That's more thematic to the character, more interesting for both sides, and is barely stronger than where he currently is so giving him too much of a boost isn't too much of a concern.
There's some other stuff like tweaking cooldowns and such, but those two are the main things I'd want to see done.
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I had the thought myself, just a few minutes ago... I wonder if Cage might be in that DBD movie in production right now, and that's what sparked this idea.
No proof of this, of course, just idle speculation.
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I am so confused but also immensely curious and intrigued
I'm not against this at all