jesterkind
jesterkind
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450435#Comment_3450435
Brine was considered a mediocre perk on release. It was only problematic when paired with old overcharge.
Literally just revert it. It'll go back to being a merely alright perk.
So was Eruption. People can and have been wrong about a perk on release before.
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@NoImportaLaVerdad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450433#Comment_3450433
You might be right, I've changed the numbers because the old net positive before the first edit was 12 seconds. These new numbers should be more balanced.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450435#Comment_3450435
The problem is that Call of Brine without regression is a worse Surveillance (Pig Perk):
It only works for 60 seconds, the killer needs to kick the generator and if the survivor is good enough they will be hitting Great Skill Checks instead of Good Skill Checks so you won't receive any notifications at all.
Well, wouldn't it be a fair change to just make it so both kinds of skill checks give a notification? A simple small buff that puts it in a clear niche alongside Surveillance. Which one you'd pick depends more on personal preference and a few additional pieces of context, because they'd provide very similar value.
Personally, I find even good survivors hit Good checks more than Greats, but still. It's better to lean into what CoB actually does now, rather than trying to make it a regression perk again.
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This isn't a terrible idea for a perk at all, but I don't think it's necessary for Call of Brine. I think it's alright that CoB is just a pretty okay information perk now, it doesn't need to keep being a hybrid information/regression perk.
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Hillbilly into Kanaya Maryam from Homestuck. The chainsaw is the connecting element, the rest is just reskinning and recording new audio.
I'd become a Hillbilly main in an instant.
Honourable mention towards Knight becoming Lady Dimitrescu with the guards becoming the daughters, and Twins becoming Donna Beneviento with Victor becoming Angie
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@DEMONANCE said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449934#Comment_3449934
snares are a really boring chase power i really hope he gets something other than snares or he'll just remain as boring as he is now.
I'd be willing to not give him a chase power (maybe just dream pallets) if he can get other stuff to work with.
Not every killer needs to only have a chase power. That's why I recommend giving him more fake objects to play around with.
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@BougieBlackChick said:
Complaining about windows is just another step in trying to get any useful perks nerfed into the ground. First it was DH, and DS, then medkits and COH, now it’s windows, toolboxes and sprint burst, because survivors have switched to running constant gen builds because of the healing nerf.
Every time a perk gets nerfed to the point of uselessness and people start running other perks, then that new perk that becomes a favorite get complained about. This is boilerplate.
The problem with that line of logic is that almost everything you've listed did need changing. Prior to 6.1.0, Dead Hard was overwhelmingly overpowered, it desperately needed to be nerfed. Decisive Strike wasn't overpowered, but it was unhealthy due to the way players were using it; the state it was in prior to 6.1.0 was a healthy one and it'll be a healthy perk again with its stun duration increased. Medkits and CoH were also a problem, especially in combination, because ultra-fast self healing is a huge balance problem.
To the wider topic, I don't think Windows of Opportunity is OP, or anywhere close to your list. I also don't think Sprint Burst needs to be nerfed, though toolboxes obviously do.
Windows isn't really a huge problem when map resources are balanced, it's just convenient for survivors. You as a killer still have every method of outplaying a survivor available to you, it's not like it shows your aura, and you also have Blindness to turn it off, alongside other aura perks. It only becomes a problem when survivors are on maps with easily chainable safe tiles, and... it's not as though those maps aren't a problem outside of using this perk.
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I'm curious to hear your rationale for some of these, not that I necessarily disagree. I'm most curious about your "best" pick for Trapper and Nemesis especially- what was the reasoning there?
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449873#Comment_3449873
It's an absurd waste to have a whole killer- their model, animations, sound fx, skins and power be pigeonholed into something only for new players. A killer designed to be dropped eventually because their kit doesn't have the latent complexity and nuance to compete at higher levels.
It's not like any changes you that you could give him would make him inaccessible for new players. If you made him start with his traps new players wouldn't spawn in as trapper and trip over all the gosh darn traps he's holding and immediately uninstall. If traps gave deep wounds on a self escape it's not like new players would experience bafflement and just die. Giving him better tools for experienced players in no way precludes him being accessible for new ones. Absolutely inane argument.
I'd imagine that's why they are giving him some small changes!
It would be weird if literally anyone said he couldn't be changed in any way whatsoever because he's good for onboarding new players. Very strange hypothetical indeed.
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First, make dream pallets basekit, alongside snares. Since they're pretty weak and limited in where you can place them, I don't think that'd be overpowered. He'd swap between them like Clown's bottles, and he'd have a shared ammo pool for them so they're still kept in check. The total ammo count could be adjusted, though.
Second, dramatically overhaul his addons. Prioritise adding in more things that only affect survivors while they're asleep, as actual map interactables; fake generators, fake totems, fake chests, even fake breakable walls if you wanna be thorough. As a rule, these objects would all disappear when the survivor attempts to interact with them, causing them to scream and inflicting different status effects based on the rarity or combination of the addons used to create them. This would serve to make Freddy more thematic, in that the dream world is under his control and he's toying with what survivors can see, as well as making him generally more interesting to verse as you would be encouraged to identify which addons he's running and/or prioritise waking up via alarm clocks or teamwork.
Beyond that, I don't think he'd need much. A few number tweaks here and there as appropriate, maybe, but the priority should be making his power more interesting instead of just trying to make it stronger.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449873#Comment_3449873
Who is asking to change him fundamentally? Read the original post, lol. And a small update...yes, significant improvements are on their way /s
I don't think it's all that unreasonable for them to set expectations this way. There is an update coming, but they don't want to make huge changes to Trapper because the way he works now is good for onboarding new players. That's not an unreasonable response to asking about Trapper.
The kind of things Trapper would need - traps closer to the centre of the map, small speed boosts to some actions, harder to spot traps - would all absolutely count as small updates.
More to the point, though, your original post up there heavily implied that no changes were coming and the kill rate was cited as the reason. That isn't true, so my response stands.
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I think it's wild to take this post as an indication that they only look at kill rates and thus aren't changing Trapper in any way, when the post outright states the opposite??
First, there is a small update coming. They said they don't want to change him particularly heavily, they don't want to adjust him on a fundamental level, but they do have a small gameplay update coming "along with" the new skin.
Second, the argument they make here is one I'm sympathetic to. The reason they don't want to change him too fundamentally, according to this post, is because he's a simple and easy to learn killer who serves as a great onboarding character for new players. This argument isn't wrong, and I honestly agree with it; his power should remain roughly where it is because he's the face of the game and new players deserve simpler killers to learn the game with.
They did mention stats in this post, probably to remind people that Trapper isn't languishing in complete unplayability, but that's not the only thing they mention here and it's unfair to portray it that way.
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@Doomzilla said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449183#Comment_3449183
didnt they just say what the update was right there? About him getting a “naughty bear” skin?
It does say the new skin is releasing alongside a killer update, which does make it seem like they're separate things.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I'd pose that her ability to find 3 generators close together at the start and then be able to stand there with a power strong enough to hold a game hostage by simply waiting right at the start is her problem wholly.
I do not believe 3-gens is a problem that is shared by other killers. Some killers are better at protecting generators than others, such as Knight, Hag or Trapper, but they all have counterplay and even the Knight is not as strong as claimed. The Skull Merchant has the ability to create an impossible set up with a power that only excels in this one field. Other than using a drone to remove a tile she has nothing else of value.
Her power is the only power which allows a game to be held hostage without being punishable, because her holding a game hostage is protected under her power. This is why she is fundamentally the most unhealthy killer around.
What would you say is the reason for Skull Merchant being a better 3-gen machine than Knight?
From my view, it'd be the other way around. SM may provide some moderate pressure to encourage survivors to take care of something before they start repairing, but the Knight's power - if a guard is set to loop near a generator - actively forces them not to, because otherwise it's guaranteed damage/a guaranteed down. SM can pressure one generator at once, Knight can pressure two. SM may have information about which generators are being worked on, but Knight has far more firepower to actually do something about it.
What am I missing? I'm legitimately curious what you mean here.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448608#Comment_3448608
She would require a fundamental power change, on the level of Freddy, which is basically removing her from the game.
sure, you COULD play her in a non-optimal way. That's like never using Ghostface's NightShroud or only using Bubba's saw to break pallets. It's clearly not the intended way to play and it's not how most people play them.
If you buff ANY aspect of her kit, it'll buff her 3-gen.
Make Exposed last longer? More time off gens, better 3-gen. Make it take less time to become Exposed? Less time on gens, better 3-gen. Make stealth last longer? Better 3-gen and easier chases.
At BEST right now, she can be played as a worse Knight, who himself is a worse Artist. Place Drone at loop, Survivor must leave loop, repeat.
She should be reworked completely so we can forget about this pathetic excuse for a Killer design.
I can't speak for the developers, of course, but I do kind of feel like she wouldn't have all those elements to her kit if you were only supposed to use the Exposed and the stall from people disabling the drones. Right? Like, she wouldn't have stealth, she wouldn't have information, she wouldn't have haste or pallet breaking... so I really think it's deeply misguided to say that playing Skull Merchant for chase, information, or stealth is equivalent to purposefully not using elements of another killer's power. They are part of her power, and they must therefore be intended. How strong they are is a separate issue.
Yes, if you JUST buff her, it'll buff her 3-gen. However, the 3-gen problem needs to be addressed anyway, even if Skull Merchant were removed from the game, which is why I recommended doing BOTH of those things.
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@Seraphor said:
That's like saying "don't mention camping!" when discussing ways to improve Bubba.
Skull Merchant's power is perfectly suited for defending 3 gens. You can't place drones over hooks, so gens are they only viable use for them. This means that optimising her playstyle means optimising your gen defence, which means targeting and establishing 3 gen set ups.
To not 3 gen as Skull Merchant would be to not look for cover as Ghostface, or to avoid open areas as Huntress.
Now 3-genning is an entirely valid killer tactic, it's a way to outplay your opponent, but Skull Merchant is simply so good at it as to become oppressive, just like Bubba is with camping.
It literally is, yes. When talking about the core design of Leatherface, and what problems his core design has, it is absolutely appropriate to take facecamping off the table because it's a problem that exists outside of him and is not inherent to his core design. It doesn't mean his facecamping issue doesn't exist, it obviously does, but you wouldn't say that Bubba is a lost cause and the game would be better off if he were deleted because of it - and if you did see multiple people saying that, it'd be appropriate to try and start a dialogue with that taken out of the equation to better understand if those people had a point.
I appreciate your runwdown. I've mentioned a few things I disagree with there already, but I am legitimately happy to hear the arguments in more depth, even if I think they're wrong.
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@Pulsar said:
Her power is to lock down areas.
She either defends 3-gens or defends totems. Neither of which are engaging gameplay.
She's the only Killer that routinely takes matches hostage and hee power allows her to do so.
However, without her 3-gen, she's completely unplayable. She's exceedingly weak and she has zero redeeming qualities.
The game would legitimately be in a better spot if she was removed.
What about her chase builds, or using her drones for information gathering more than the Exposed effect? What about the fact that her power's design means that she could use her drones for stealth purposes, with a few number tweaks?
That's kind of my issue here. I've seen people say that she's only good for 3-genning but that's literally not accurate? Don't get me wrong, she's not the strongest killer around at any of those things, but the conversation is about her core design rather than her literal balance numbers. I don't think that's pedantic, either, your conclusion here - that she should be removed - rests on this idea that she cannot and could not do anything else, but since she can and could, the better conclusion would be that the 3-gen problem in general should be addressed and her other elements should be buffed.
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@Krazzik said:
3 gens -are- a thing outside of SM sure, but her kit makes her far better than most other killers in camping them, and that's the issue with her.
Also, what else can they do to combat 3-gens in general? They can make gens spawn further away from each other but with 7 gens that need to spawn there just isn't enough space on many maps to make sure they're all far enough from each other. You could make maps larger but that creates a whole host of other problems for low mobility killers.
And even if they DID somehow make gens further apart, SM could still 3-gen really well because her drones are just THAT good at it.
Admittedly, I have no idea how they'll fix the 3-gen problem. I'm not a game designer so my ability to design solutions is limited, and this is a pretty sticky problem to be sure. All I know is that adjusting SM without adjusting anything else only means the players who want to hold matches hostage move on to a different killer to do it with.
That's a little besides the point, though. The point is that I've seen people say that her design at its core is fundamentally broken and cannot be made to work, and that is what I'm asking for clarification on. The topic of 3-gens aside, Skull Merchant's power design has a fair amount of application, at least in theory- I want to know why people would disagree with me on that.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Her entire kit revolves around locking down a decent sized area to prevent survivors from using that space, and she gains information about their location if they attempt to counter that or if they simply try to pass through.
At best, this ability forces a survivor to leave a loop mid chase. At worst, it can prevent an area up to 3 drones in diameter, and any area beyond that if used in a corner or in a building, from being a playable space.
No other area denial is nearly as strong, since even trapper or hag have considerably smaller activation areas, and there exists counter play to the traps that don't involve alerting the killer (crouch for hag, avoid for trapper). Skully's power is also the only one that works through floors on multi story maps, and can be activated by the killer at any time even if the survivor is being careful to avoid triggering it.
This kind of large area denial has very, very obvious implications for locking down objectives. You already know that because you don't want to acknowledge a 3 gen situation, but generators and totems are the two most glaringly obvious choices. The only thing that would be more appealing to cover would be a hooked survivor, but hooks in use are literally the only thing prevented from actively being in a drone radius.
There's a pretty glaring flaw in this argument, though- that isn't her entire kit. It's half of her kit.
The other half is tracking and Haste from when survivors disable the drones, which is what makes her design actually workable if and when 3-gens are fixed. Like I said in another reply, she has a reasonable amount of variance in her kit; you can do trap drones that you chase survivors into, you can put drones in obvious areas to make more use of the Claw Traps, you hypothetically should be able to try and use the drones for stealth, you can defend totems... there's a lot you can do with her power.
I do appreciate your response, though. Even if I disagree, understanding the argument was the goal here.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
You said don't mention 3-gens but.... This is only problem about her.
I mean she is best 3-gens camper, the only reason i don't like her is that.
And if she don't camp gens, she have no power.
I suspected this might be the overwhelming answer, but that's still a worthwhile one insofar as it helps me understand the opinion better.
I absolutely disagree, of course. She absolutely has a power without 3-gens, she has a surprising amount of variety in builds and application.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448072#Comment_3448072
There is no mind game involved with going to second floor, drop from a safe window, repeat until blocked
Second floor? We're talking about jungle gyms here.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448055#Comment_3448055
"Sure, but they're well designed and the killer has agency in playing them, and there should be at least some safe tiles on the map. The presence of well-designed safe tiles isn't in itself a bad thing."
Survivors should never be "safe", it's about the time they can earn for the team, there should never be any such thing as safety for them.
That carebear mentality is making the killer's role unplayable.
...Safe tiles doesn't mean survivors are literally safe, it just means the tile can be looped and mindgamed on both sides.
Like I said, the killer has agency in playing them. You can exercise your skill to determine the outcome of those tiles, not just your opponent.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448037#Comment_3448037
Jungle gym are mostly safe.
but the real issue is that one side is Shack and the other is that silly building with the "2nd floor" window that can be looped in the most braindead fashion ever...
And main, omg main, unplayable.
Sure, but they're well designed and the killer has agency in playing them, and there should be at least some safe tiles on the map. The presence of well-designed safe tiles isn't in itself a bad thing.
As for the silly building... you don't mean the little thing that literally just has a window in it, with a breakable wall? That structure is the furthest thing from safe, it's practically a trap for survivors.
Main can be bad, depending. I'm not gonna say it's never a problem, just that the degree to which it's a problem is usually a lot lower than some other structures.
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I'd be all for that. If they needed to add a slight delay so it's not too powerful in chase or whatever, I'm okay with that, just so long as I can be moving and doing something else while it's starting.
It's the biggest feedback I've had for the Knight since his PTB, tbh. I'd really love to see that part of his kit made smoother.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448001#Comment_3448001
Are the tiles that safe, though?
Yes, a resounding yes.
Hands down no freaking question asked, everyday of the week. YES
Can I ask why you think that?
The tiles that aren't like, normal jungle gym tiles are pretty *un*safe in my opinion. They're mostly like, the super short and low ones with snow piles as one half, right? Those aren't particularly safe, and a lot of killer powers interact very favourably with them.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447993#Comment_3447993
Except that on this map, you can't patrol gens effectively at all due the their even spread.
RDP, while factually bigger "feels" smaller due to the corridor settings that gets in the way of both teams in a fair way/in favor of certain killers.
but that "medium sized map" is setup in such a way that survirors can flee in almost ANY direction and end up a very SAFE tiles all over the map, its very open and gens are usually very far from one another.
For its design its factually too big.
Are the tiles that safe, though?
There's the long one built around whatever that big vehicle is, but a lot of the rest of them are either standard jungle-gym type tiles or unsafe snowdrift type tiles. That's part of why I don't mind this map so much, most of the pallets feel pretty fair and playable.
In extreme situations for super immobile killers (like Trapper or Hag) I could see the argument being that you have to ignore some of the edge generators, but that's kind of how those killers play anyway so it's not a huge change. Everyone else I feel can patrol well enough, so long as they're not like... trying to patrol around the whole map in an unbroken loop or something, lol.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447988#Comment_3447988
It's huge, M1 Killer have 0 map pressure on it.
Ehhhh. It's the medium size for maps, and while that's still pretty big for killers with no mobility, it is imo the biggest a map can be while still being fair.
I play a lot of M1 killers and if I play the map smart I usually don't have a huge problem with the size.
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Badham and Garden I agree with, those maps are pretty notoriously bad for the killer, but Ormond?
The main building can be problematic, especially when survivors decide they want to be unhookable and build around it, but other than that specific niche build I don't think I've had that much trouble on Ormond. Honestly, I quite like that map, it's about as big as any map should be and most of the loops aren't too obnoxious.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
She really needs a rework. A killer's most viable strategy shouldn't be 3-genning.
Every killer's most viable strategy is 3-genning, though. There are some that aren't quite as good as Skull Merchant at doing it with their powers, like Trapper or Sadako, but every killer gets the most benefit from sticking by three generators that are very close together.
Most killers (including SM) are able to perform without doing that, and no killer (including SM) benefits from never committing to any down or chase outside of the 3-gen, so the problem isn't strength. The problem is that a killer player is capable, if they really want to and are patient enough, of stalling the game forever by simply never leaving that territory.
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Very occasionally I do, it's most impactful for shortening certain loops. Throw the pink gas at one end, throw the yellow gas at the other, push the survivor to run such that they hit the pink and you hit the yellow... easy hit. Most of the time.
Even knowing that, though, I find just the pink gas does the job well enough. The only time I use the Afterpiece Antidote personally is when I'm running that purple addon to show auras while Invigorated -- and that is a great time to use it because that addon rules.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445975#Comment_3445975
It's legit not quiet. It's a shrill ringing.
It always sounded quiet to me, but then again, my hearing is pretty bad in one ear lol
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There is. There's a shrill ringing sound that plays when Deathslinger is aiming at you while ADSed.
It's kinda quiet, but it is there.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445526#Comment_3445526
Perks tied to objective loss for killers don't feel good and have far less actual value. We have a lot of much better ways to get Undetectable that are essentially on demand. Machine Learning giving 10% haste on paper is great, but in practice getting that time gated haste at what is essentially random timing can either be extremely helpful or just flat out useless with pretty much no middle ground. It has was the same exact design flaws as Game Afoot but even worse yet covered for by a much larger haste bonus. It's a bad perk. Everything this perk can do is done either better or more consistently by other perks with exception of its 10% haste. That's not enough to ask killers to loss a gen over. It needs rework that brings the haste value down to something less crazy and its restrictions need to reassesed. Considering they called Machine Learn I was expecting that this would be an escalation type perk where as the game progressed gained some sort permanent buff to increase your efficiency.
As for Scavenger, I said in my original post that "diminishing returns are still returns". Yes, they take a 50% cut to repair speed, but they can still stay on gens while getting their charges back. Understand that cut is only a soft loss of efficiency as perks can and will compensate for some of that loss. Toolboxes are too much of an outlier in their current state to be building perks like this around especially when there is already no shortage of unconditional stacking gen speed increase. It's one of the most infuriating parts of this game because people have been telling the devs about this for years. They've done small changes in the past, but there needs to be emphasis placed on stablizing how hard survivors can push the pace of the game. Scavenger exacerbates the issue more because now you're asking killers to not only deal with toolboxes getting even more support, but asking them to deal with them in some way potentially every game.
Pyramid Head has been needing something to make his torment see more use and while I acknowledge the issues presented by survivors and agree to an extent. This was something that would have been really nice for him to have even if they put in his iri addons rather than just shelve the whole thing and give him nothing at all. He has very useless addons that make no sense to iri addons and could be changed around. Why they didn't go that route to start with is beyond me.
They did take the feedback for Singularity's issues to heart and made substantive changes that generally are good. I don't care about the Singularity though and it wasn't even something I really touched on in my original post much at all. The perception issue I did touch one was specifically in regards to killer players. They did well to sort out Singularity's issues which is what I mainly expected them to do, but the perception I spoke of has been built up over a long long period time and will not change just over Singularity having good experience especially when in the same patch Pyramid Head players are getting left in lurch, killers who don't want to continue dealing with toolboxes as they currently exist and the wider issue of gen speed perks being far too forgiving and prevalent for years at this point expressed the problems with scavenger and the same level caution they used with Pyramid Head to call something off entirely didn't get used with Scavenger. We know how badly the game can get with toolboxes, but most pyramid head's weren't going to tunnel and camp folks to such an overwhelming degree.
They take feedback and often miss the point of what is being expressed in that feedback. So sometimes we get good solid on the mark changes that improve the quality of the game for everyone, but more other than not we get weird changes that make no sense, actively detrimental changes that end up lasting forever or get banal bandaid over bullet wound changes.
Well, hold on a second- the point being discussed here isn't just if the changes are a net good, the point you raised was BHVR not correctly interpreting feedback, right? And my rebuttal is, they absolutely did. People complained specifically about a free toolbox reset without any loss in efficiency, which is why they changed it the way they did. People complained specifically about the Pyramid Head change, and so they revisited it. That's why the Singularity is relevant, it's another example of them changing the exact thing people were complaining about. There's nothing that they missed the point on, with the sole exception that the only people complaining about Machine Learning just didn't like the core design of it and so there wasn't much to act on there; everything else had an overall trend of what the complaints were, and those complaints were acted on.
I don't mean to be rude or accusatory, but it kinda sounds like your feedback was different and you're extrapolating that out to make a wider criticism about BHVR taking the wrong idea from the community's feedback, but that isn't what happened here.
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While I do think that some of the tools available for speeding up generators are too strong, and I'll gladly lend my voice towards getting those things nerfed, I do have to question part of your sentiment here. Specifically, you say there's no way to interrupt generators except "to physically go to them", and... yes? Yes, you're meant to pressure survivors away from generators by actively pushing them away from said generators, that's part of your job as killer. Get a hook, go chase someone, now a third person has to come off generators to save the first.
I only bring it up because if and when the overpowered toolboxes get nerfed, that part is still going to be the case. You are still going to lose generators if you aren't going and pressuring survivors away from them, that's just how this game works.
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Honestly, man, if the survivors are that on point, fair enough.
Though, it does mean one guy isn't repairing and the two were grouped up to make that swap to begin with, so it's not all that impressive.
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I think you're missing some stuff here.
I'll tackle Machine Learning first because it's really the one thing we just disagree on-- I don't think it's fair to say that a perk is bad because it activates when a generator is completed (after all, Machine Learning is far from the first with that requirement), and I definitely disagree with you saying that you're supposed to be protecting generators. You're not, you're supposed to be killing survivors, and defending generators is just a good way to achieve that goal- that's relevant because while Machine Learning does require you to have lost a generator, it gives you a benefit that helps you to fulfil your actual objective. 10% Haste is nothing to sneeze at, and Undetectable on top of that is a really nice cherry on top. Still, we ultimately just disagree there.
Where I think you're being more legitimately misguided is in the other two. To tackle Scavenger first, I think part of what you missed is the specific feedback that the PTB version required no downtime; it was compared to Built to Last a lot, to highlight that BtL requires you to go hop in a locker and take time off generators to recharge your item. Scavenger, meanwhile, had no required downside; you just got your charges back and could use them immediately. This change enforces either downtime, or a net neutral efficiency; your +50% bonus from the toolbox offsets the -50% penalty from the perk, sure, but if you actually repair through that you're not really gaining anything from bringing the perk in the first place. On the flipside, if you get off generators to actually wait out the penalty's timer, you're not doing generators during that time, which is enforced downtime more than equivalent to Built to Last. It'll remain to be seen just how effective the perk ends up being, of course, but this was very much a direct response to the specific feedback that was given to Scavenger.
Same with Pyramid Head. The "much desired" QoL change suggested on the PTB was anything but; overwhelming feedback was that it shouldn't go live without heavy adjustments, and if they didn't have time to make those adjustments then simply cancelling it (for now) was absolutely the right call. Again, a direct response to feedback, not ignoring it or flying in the face of it.
It's also worth mentioning the other changes that came with this developer update, because those were also a direct response to feedback. EMPs felt too available for how strong they are, so they're reducing the availability. It was hard to tell at a glance when a Biopod was hacked, so they made it more obvious. Straight complaint -> resolution, exactly as with Scavenger and Pyramid Head.
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I think saying endgame builds are "not possible anymore" on those killers is a pretty extreme stretch. At the very worst, even assuming everything else you've said is correct, it means endgame builds carry the risk of survivors having that very specific combo of perks, which... I don't see happening en masse.
Further, I think people are kind of forgetting that 110% killers have, like, powers? I don't play Hag enough to know for certain, so I can't speak for her, but Huntress/Trickster/Deathslinger are all designed around not needing to catch up all the way, because they have range. I'm not saying they won't notice Made For This, 3% can definitely be the difference between getting behind cover and being caught, but they don't have to get within M1 range.
Lastly, I think we should at least wait and see how effective anti-exhaustion ends up being, IF this new perk becomes meta. We have two reliable perk options, one less reliable perk option, one trash perk option, and a variety of addons as well, all revolving around inflicting Exhaustion- which will in turn disable MfT. Killers are far from hopeless in the face of this perk, so it's best not to overreact too early.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444971#Comment_3444971
Ok, I am going to read whole post just for you.
Just delete her
Yeah, that would help for sure... So original suggestion
Drop the Exposed condition from her power, it's not really adding much value.
they could keep the tracking utility and then you could give her a secondary chase oriented power directly or have her drones give her buffs with no delay or requirement like standing still so they can be more effective tools at a loop.
It's better idea than mca240's, because there is some attempt for valid compensation.
Exposed status as I explained earlier is big deal of power, she wouldn't work without it.
This idea would want to go with drones only tracking + speed boost and instead of exposed status give antiloop secondary power. Sure, that might work overall, but we have a lot of antiloop killers already and main issue is: too much work. BHVR will not do that major change on new killer.
Start end game collapse after 24 minutes and 59 seconds pass. Any remaining survivors will be killed by the entity and not count as kills for the killer.
That would fix hiding survivors too, so I don't see this as skull merchant idea. It might help against cheaters holding game hostage, because you would have exact time where each game had to end, so you could forcefully end it on server.
Great idea imo. Probably would increase it to at least 30, but that's just number change.
-Drones that exposes a Survivor loses it detection radius and will instead solely follow after the first or closest Survivor
-Drones that get hacked causes a cooldown before SM can put another one down.
-Giving SM remote control over her drones where it switch the FOV from SM over the drones
-Drones can no longer detect through multiple floors.
When survivor gets exposed drone follow them. Seems kinda like pointless change. Why not just get claw trap instead as survivor to deny her a drone completely? Seems complicated with little benefit to me. I don't think this is either nerf or buff.
Drones get hacked gives cooldown would be really annoying for skull merchant. It would help SWF, because they could deny her power when some survivor is in chase with her. I really don't like this idea. This wouldn't really prevent 3-gen holding, but it would hurt her while trying to chase other survivors, which is probably not what you want. Movement speed change on clawtrap was mode to help her chase survivors, this is doing opposite.
Remote control would be again too much work, we are going to have Singularity for that too, so kinda copy paste.
Drones can no longer detect through multiple floors. I really don't like that change. This allows you to be kinda inovative with your dron placement. It would get kinda brainless without it. When I play against her I always make calls what gens to get rid of first, because I know it's going to be pain to leave them into end game. If you have gen above basement, you have to get rid of it asap.
So summary -> those nerfs would hurt overall gameplay of skull merchant (feeling of playing her), but not really 3-gen. Those buffs are not realistic changes.
I can't be bothered on AssortedSorting' idea. Most of it is just bad or too complicated.
Genuinely, I think survivors need a way to take away drones more permanently.
Do I really have to explain why is it bad idea to let survivors deny killer's power?
You already can deny her power as long you have claw trap, but it gives her speed boost. I really liked that change. It's kinda trade off. I guess it would be fine to increase battery, if you don't like her drones. It wouldn't really hurt her.
No longer activate drones by distance, so she have to move if she wants to activate it
That's just stupid. You want to complain about 3-gen, but make her unable to leave 3-gen?
Remove the startup period for Undetectable, you just get it as soon as you enter a drone's radius. Given that it takes a few seconds for your terror radius to entirely shrink when you get Undetectable, I don't think that would be too strong.
I mean, sure. I don't really consider her stealth killer from start, her stealth is kinda weak on most maps. If you want to give her buff then sure, but I don't think it would change much. Stealth is not one of her strength. It can give you free hit, but it's not really reliable part of her power.
Well what about her perks?
Sucks.
THWACK! - shouldn't make you scream, it sucks that you get to know your aura was revealed.
Game Afoot - useless, impossible to save. You can create a meme build with it (rancor), but that's it.
Leverage - It's simply too limited and takes too long to get decent effect, there are way better perks for this.
So only thing that I would do:
Survivor will skull trap is still unable to hack other drones, but it doesn't make drones active -> this is just little help to soloQ, but wouldn't hurt merchant that bad.
That's a little unfair to my post, don't you think?
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It was a buff to Haemorrhage, not to Sloppy Butcher, and it makes a lot more sense considering what that word means. It's also a buff to what was once a useless status effect, that makes it actually quite useful but only if you're actively pressuring survivors.
If survivors are safe and able to heal all the way, the buff does nothing. If there's a risk of your heal being interrupted, the buff is meant to make you think twice about starting it.
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@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444948#Comment_3444948
Thank you, but I still know how to build them. I think I was one of the first to use the combo with Pentimento and Plathing, I started using it as soon as the Artist came out.
The real problem is that you can do a slowdown build with synergies, you can also apply it to the fullest, simply gens fly (obviously we are talking about high mmr against the top swf), so slowdowns count for little or nothing if the people you are against are so well organized that consistently manages to counter the regression.
As I will always say, slowdowns are not efficient since they can't match (not exceed, match) the surv's repair speed
Well, there's a good reason slowdown perks don't match survivor repair speed- if they did, using them in combination with natural slowdown from injures/downs/hooks would become pretty insurmountable for the majority of survivor players. The only things that'd be able to overcome that kind of combo would be full on genrushing builds, and those should be nerfed, not encouraged.
There's enough slowdown in the game to perform reliably right now, perks just won't carry you.
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@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444941#Comment_3444941
I also try to do synergies, and the combo you use on Wraith I used on pyramid head. True, I can also hit well with the punishment, however it is not rewarding. The generators flew anyway, I fell back to using Devour hope with undying and Pentimento. and I managed quietly (more or less quietly) to kill.
That also works. I used that combo on Skull Merchant the other night, it's risky but effective slowdown.
There's still plenty of avenues to get your slowdown, you just normally have to think about it more and get most of it through spreading pressure naturally.
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Slowdowns are still very useful and impactful if you use them right, though. The trick is to choose specific slowdown perks that synergise with your killer and other perks.
Example: Let's say I'm playing Wraith. Already I've got a good slowdown perk that synergises well with my killer, Eruption, so we'll follow that through. Let's say we bring Eruption, because Wraith can tag multiple generators quickly, and we bring Nowhere to Hide to get info from each kick. Suddenly we've got a good reason to be performing the action that applies Eruption, and we get Eruption's 10% regression on every down we get, which is nothing to sneeze at. You'll notice this also doesn't require tunnelling.
The thing that doesn't really work anymore is just piling four generally disconnected slowdown perks onto any old killer and expecting that to stall the game a bunch.
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Unfortunate that it's being shelved entirely, at least for now, but if they didn't have time to implement the necessary safeguards against camping/tunnelling, it's the right call.
Hopefully they revisit this idea later on down the line.
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It'll be strong, and nobody will use it, which is the far preferable outcome to it being strong and everyone using it.
It'll be very, very useful in dedicated builds, but won't be a free toolbox reset anymore. That's a good thing. If and when toolboxes are brought in line, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets a bit of a tweak again.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444115#Comment_3444115
Well what about her perks?
You may think that my words have nothing to do with my post
But as you read the title, "How do you Fix the Skull Merchant,"
power - add-ons - perks
I don't know why everyone focused on her power only
I think her perks are fine?
They're niche, but they're perfectly usable. Thwack! is a perfectly usable tracking tool, Leverage is kind of inconsistent but does do something and it stacks with other sources of anti-heal, and Game Afoot is honestly pretty slept on, it's an Obsession swapper for when you need that and its actual effect is genuinely pretty useful.
I suppose you could buff them, but I don't think they're in an emergency state where that's of a high priority the way other perks might be. They're not meta-defining but they're mostly fine.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444076#Comment_3444076
It has a problem, which is that the drones affect several floors
This is what makes it so powerful in maps with more than one floor
So I thought of making the drones only affect the same floor and to replace it, I will increase the detection range from 10 meters to 12.5 meters
And as you suggested, she will gain an effect once she enters detection range
She will retain this effect for 7 seconds when she is out of detection range
What is your opinion?
The multiple floors thing can be an issue, though it kind of breaks both ways in that she may not be on the same floor as the survivor she's affecting. Still, in general I'm kind of in favour of deleting effects that travel through floors, so I'd be totally on board with that.
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No killer should ever be changed on the level of the original Freddy rework ever again. At best that rework was a necessary evil to be avoided in the future at all costs, it's catastrophically bad for the game to do it more than once.
Anyway, if the upcoming 3-gen solutions are properly effective, everyone's problem with Skull Merchant should quietly go away.
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She doesn't need much, at this point. People keep making her the scapegoat for the 3-gen problem even though it clearly exists outside of her, so now that she's had the change to how drones and claw traps work and now that the two most obnoxious 3-gen perks are dealt with, we'll be taking that off the table for discussion for now.
Which leaves us with Skull Merchant as played... I'd like to say 'normally', but it seems people not attempting a 3-gen are the exception and not the rule, so we'll say played properly. The problems she has, in my opinion, are similar to the problems Sadako has, in that the elements of her kit don't mesh as well as they should, leading to them all feeling weaker than they could be.
The biggest problem element is her stealth, insofar as she basically doesn't have any? There was a great video by Pixel Bush during her PTB that showcased the kind of killer she could be if her stealth was buffed, where she could set up webs of drones between generators that give her instant and lingering stealth for better map traversal, while also pushing survivors to leave their generators and actually travel to take care of the drones. I think leaning further towards this would both improve Skull Merchant's strength and remind people that she can in fact do things other than 3-gen defence.
So, my proposal would be something like: Remove the startup period for Undetectable, you just get it as soon as you enter a drone's radius. Given that it takes a few seconds for your terror radius to entirely shrink when you get Undetectable, I don't think that would be too strong. Additionally, I would propose that the Undetectable status should linger for a good handful of seconds, somewhere in the ten to fifteen range? With some addons tweaked to increase that number. To compensate I think it'd be fair to nerf Lock On, since it would be better served imo as a deterrent that pushes survivors to act a certain way, rather than something you're actually supposed to see straightforward value from; think Pig's RBTs being a slowdown tool, rather than a tool to pop heads consistently.
With these changes, Skull Merchant would have a lot more versatility, especially with addons involved. Players could build towards chasing survivors into drones for active effects and a chase-heavy playstyle, they could prioritise using drones for information, or they could prioritise using the drones to gain actually usable stealth, all having clear answers on the survivor's side.
Though, it must be noted that a decent chunk of the problem as it is right now can't be solved by balance changes because it's a community attitude issue. She's already capable of more than just 3-gens, but that doesn't stop the prevailing attitude from being the exact opposite. That part, I don't know how to fix.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442320#Comment_3442320
Camping is a strategy. As I said, camping is the best choice in some situations and for some killers.
Standing still and waiting for the timer to go down. Sounds like doing gens?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442439#Comment_3442439
False. The camping changes were implemented because it wasn't fun for survivors and caused "frustration". The change was made to improve enjoyment for survivors and was not a balance change. Therefore, any changes to the games balance must be accounted for. See https://deadbydaylight.com/news/anniversary-gameplay-updates.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442564#Comment_3442564
If you've read that comment, it clearly explains why it's a nerf. Though, I'll repeat myself. There are many situations where camping is better but the most common situation is camping a survivor that is nearly dead. Between camping for 30 seconds to kill a survivor and potentially get an additional down compared to chasing another survivor, which can take 30-60 seconds for a down, the first option is vastly superior. The camping changes prevents the vastly stronger first option and therefore, is a nerf.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442616#Comment_3442616
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442739#Comment_3442739
Camping isn't a guaranteed kill. I just said it was since the odds of it getting a kill is extremely high.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442743#Comment_3442743
If I was, I would be arguing to cancel the camping changes. My post is neither for or against the change. I am just saying if killers get nerfed due to it, a buff is needed to offset it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442797#Comment_3442797
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442813#Comment_3442813
Ever heard of https://www.twitch.tv/sethgameon? This guy has over 6k overs on Bubba and recently attempted a 50 win streak on Bubba. He never camps. After several weeks, he gave up because it was impossible.
The fact that it's a strategy is exactly why this kind of change needs to be implemented. No strategy should completely grind the game to a halt, and every strategy should have an answer on the opponent's side. If you fully and wholeheartedly believe it to be a strategy, then you should support it being balanced like it's a strategy.
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@lifestylee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443447#Comment_3443447
- The affected Survivor will passively gain 1 Health State 16 seconds after use.
- The time required can be modified by Perks and Add-ons that affect Healing speeds.
From the dbd wiki, it can be effected by perks and add ons but i believe at base even if you use it on yourself its 16 seconds.
If it's modified by healing speeds, that means that the medkit's inherent healing speed debuff should apply, right?
Either way, to the overall topic: I think syringes are fine, as others have said, but BNPs and toolboxes as a whole are the next big balance issue to address on the survivor side.
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I think the reasoning is that it's frontloading the cost for unlocking perks on everyone, instead of having to spend way, way more on who knows how many bloodwebs just to unlock those perks on one character.
Personally I don't think it's necessary, but I do kind of see the logic behind a low, symbolic cost for unlocking those perks across everyone.