hermitkermit
hermitkermit
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979150#Comment_3979150
I think what happened is that there was so much outrage at things that were bugged coming out of 9.1 that this issue just kind of piggy backed with all of the other complaints. Given BHVR, rightly, went into 'we screwed up' mode I think it led to an over reaction this.
You know, that makes a lot of sense. I could definitely see it as more of a panicked reaction rather than a balance decision that was monitored. Regardless I hope the devs will consider revisiting those changes at some point. But time will tell. Thanks for offering your perspective, it’s an explanation I didn’t consider.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979440#Comment_3979440
You spell everything out so much more peasantly and more conscise than just about everyone and you just get a random downvote.
Hey, thanks. I truly appreciate the kind words. I do try and be respectful and explain my thoughts as clearly as I can. I understand that all of this stems from passion for the game, regardless of how it is expressed. I’ve had many conversations with people over the years and I guess I’ve attracted attention of someone who doesn’t like me very much haha. But that’s okay. They are totally free to disagree with any post I make! Even if it’s just me booping a pig on the nose. (I did also receive a downvote for that once)
In any case, I’m just trying to express my frustration and disappointment with the fog vials. But hopefully if enough people talk about it, the devs might revisit the changes.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979686#Comment_3979686
It's what the fog is supposed to do at its current opacity. Multiple people were claiming the fog vials are affected by gamma settings, and was even claiming that if someone said the fog-vial fog is too thick, it's because they're boosting the game brightness.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979699#Comment_3979699
No. BHVR said multiple times they can't get all the PTB changes ready for launch day, and they need additional time to get the rest of the changes done. It takes time to code all those nerfs.
Wait…. You don't think code changes are instant, do you? Like, do you think BHVR waited 2 weeks after launch, decided Ghoul needed 12 more nerfs, and then instantly coded the nerfs so they could be released the next day?
Clearly we think differently about the Ghoul timeline, but that’s not actually the point. I think we’re getting lost in the weeds here.
Can we come to some kind of agreement to end this cordially ? Meet In the middle? This feels like we’re just repeating the same things over and over and I don’t want this conversation to end up like our last one.
How is this: All things should be given more time on live before balance changes are made?
Is that a reasonable agreement? -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979575#Comment_3979575
Ghoul did not get an immediate grace period. BHVR literally gave Ghoul 25 nerfs before starting the grace period.
Likewise, it's absolutely fine for Fog Vials to get nerfs, before starting the grace period.
It's literally the same thing. The grace period for EVERYTHING IN THE GAME should start when BHVR is ready for it.
Okay, so in your opinion, the 15 days Ghoul spent on live before the hotfix don’t count as a grace period, only the time after that point. That is your opinion and that’s fine.
But as I’ve already said, if you truly believe there’s no difference between the grace period Ghoul received and the one fog vials received, I still don’t see how that would change your position on advocating for more time on live before changes are made. Whether or not you agree with me that the grace period was different in these cases doesn’t actually change the broader point. That allowing players more time to adapt before making balance changes is healthier for the game.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979474#Comment_3979474
There wasn’t a “wait and see”. Survivors complained non-stop during the PTB, and they continued to complain non-stop until the hotfix.
I honestly have no idea where you are getting the idea that survivors were patiently doing a “wait and see”. It didn’t happen.
BHVR also didn’t do a “wait and see”. There were so many nerfs lined up, that it took extra time to get them all in the hotfix.
I think you may be misunderstanding what I meant by “wait and see.” I’m not talking about whether players complained, players always do. I’m referring to how the devs and community at large respond to those complaints. Take the Ghoul, which you brought up: he was live for 15 days before the hotfix came, and in a Reddit AMA on July 23, when asked if more changes were coming due to continued frustration, Jeff stated that Ghoul was on their radar, that they are aware of some friction points that they would like to address but that, because he was “still new to the roster, we are taking the necessary time to review everything before setting things in stone.” That’s what I mean by “wait and see.” If Ghoul still constitutes as being new to the roster then the fog vials absolute are too.
What I don’t understand is what issue you have with my stance. As I said I am not against fog vials receiving changes, but only after a decent grace-period in the game. Are you saying new killers don’t typically get that grace period I was talking about? If that were true, wouldn’t it be more consistent to advocate that all new content be given time in the live game to breathe before balancing changes happen? Doesn’t it make sense to want those things for the game?
You clearly feel they were problematic enough to warrant immediate nerfs, that’s your opinion, and that’s fine. I disagree. Perhaps we should simply leave it at that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979408#Comment_3979408
BHVR didn’t do any of that. Shortly after Ghoul went live, BHVR released a hotfix where they nerfed 12 more things. I literally have those nerfs listed in the above post.
There were literally 25 nerfs that Ghoul got, before the “wait and see” started.
I was under the impression that changes didn't happen until after the first 2 weeks of his release. Patch 8.6.0 on April 2nd, and hotfix 8.6.2 on the 17th, meaning it was live for 15 days. That is the "wait and see" I was referring to. And if we're being completley honest I do not think comparing the release of Ghoul to the release of the fog vials is fair in terms of power. You may disagree and feel that fog vials are stronger than Ghoul but that will be an agree to disagree.
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@AdamZ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979150#Comment_3979150
bc there wasnt one?
- the only way to track someone was with blood stains they left and that is if u even got a hit first.
- and on quite a lot of maps the fog becomes even worse, especially on indoor maps, or one of the swamp map bc of the high "grass"?, or coldwind, farm meaning the fog is really inconsistent.
- and the obv accesibility issues
- all the survivors had to do was pre run and pop the fog vials, this way they can just straight up deny a chase.
- franklins got nerfed the only counter to items, so now all u have to do is just pick up the item and u can use it immediately.
- blood hound the only perk that can help u with tracking survivors in the fog, is just straight up bad.
- and fog vials just sraight up counters ALL OF THE RANGED KILLERS and thats just bs
- bc items and killers arent the same?
Hey thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts. When it comes to your opinion about there being no counterplay, I feel like this is where we may just have to agree to disagree. Some of the worst examples people were sharing were due to players using filters or specific graphic settings that made the fog overwhelming. That’s more about how individual settings impact play. And, not that I agree there is no counterplay, but in general, there are many strong game elements that don’t have counterplay to the first use. For example, getting injured by a Ghoul’s first hit, or unhooking an infected survivor from Plague when you yourself are healthy and so is the rest of the team. There’s no counter to that first moment either, it’s just part of normal gameplay.
I do understand your point about the fog being worse on some maps, but honestly, this seems more like a map design issue than one with fog vials specifically. Chucky and Trappers traps are harder to see on swamp, or how there’s certain breakable walls that could make a loop much weaker or much stronger. That inconsistency has always existed, and we usually don’t blame the power/item, we blame the map.
Accessibility issues, 100% valid concern, and I’m with you here, but this is something that should be addressed with accessibility solutions (like a setting or toggle), not just nerfing the entire item outright. And it should be mentioned that there are many elements of the game that are also accessibility concerns like Nightfall on Dredge or playing as/against Spirit without reliable audio. In those cases, we usually advocate for settings, not blanket nerfs. And some of those issues may very well be the point as if you could see during dredges nightfall then there wouldn’t be a point in that power.
When you talk about how survivors just pre-run and pop the fog, I might be misunderstanding this point a little, so feel free to clarify. The fog only has value before the killer sees you, if it’s dropped in front of the killer during chase, it becomes mostly useless as it doesn’t actually obscure what’s up close. So if you take away the ability to use it before chase, but don’t make it powerful during chase, then it’s kind of… useless in both cases. What do you feel the “correct” use of it should be? Should it only be viable if dropped right in front of the killer? Or within a specific radius?
This also bleeds into another point you made about how It counters all ranged killers, Yes, because LOS is how you counter ranged killers and LOS blocking is the vials only function. If fog doesn’t obscure vision, then it’s just a particle effect with no value, and I’m not sure what role it’s meant to play in gameplay at that point. If it’s not for stealth or chase evasion, what should it be for?
I think you may have misunderstood me when you said that Items and killers aren’t the same. My point was that both affect balance, and both get nerfed/buffed. What I’m saying is that it is often advocatedto give new killers time before they receive changes. We let the community explore counterplay, test perks, find techs, and adjust. But here, with fog vials, it was not given the same kind of grace. That’s the inconsistency I’m referring to. It’s not about saying killers and items are identical, but about me feeling frustrated and confused as to why the community insists on patience and adjustment time with one, but not with the other.
To be honest, every complaint I’ve seen about the fog vials could be copied and pasted under almost every new killer release:•“It’s annoying to face.”
•“There’s no counterplay.”
•“It’s too strong on some maps.”
•“It’s too weak on other maps.”
•“It requires no skill.”
I’m not saying fog vials are perfect and I, as I stated, am not against changes being made. But I don’t agree with the same adjustment window we give the community for new killers not being given to the new item.
I believe that If these same mechanics were baked into a new killer’s power, and that they could spit out a ball of fog that did the exact same thing as the fog vials, the conversation would be “give it time”.That’s the frustration and inconsistency I’m pointing to.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979150#Comment_3979150
Patch 8.6.0
CONTENT
- New Killer - The Ghoul
- PTB ADJUSTMENTS
- The Ghoul
- Increased the base sliding effect from 0.4 seconds to 0.8 seconds, on par with Anteiku Apron effect.
- Decreased the Tentacle Vault time at pallet from 2.0 seconds to 1.5 seconds to be at the same time as Tentacle window vault.
- Retuned the Tentacle Swing system to minimize the power interruption during swings or dealing around obstacles.
- Decreased Enrage Countdown Timer from 60 seconds to 45 seconds.
- Decreased Countdown added Time Bonus when completing a perfectly timed grab-attack from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
- Addon Kaneki's Wallet: Increased the window bonus time from 1.0 second to 3.0 seconds.
- Addon Anteiku Apron: Decreased the sliding bonus effect from 100% to -50%.
- Addon Broken Chain: Increased the decrease Cooldown bonus from 20% to 35%.
- Addon Satchel: Increased the Third Kagune Leap bonus speed from 20% to 30%.
- Addon Taiyaki: Increased Enraged Mode Countdown bonus Time from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.
- Addon Hinami's Umbrella: Rarity changed from Rare to Very Rare.
- Addon Red Spider: Rarity changed from Very Rare to Rare.
- Addon Yamori's Mask: Removed the Healthy requirement from the activation.
Hotfix 8.6.2
THE GHOUL
- Reduced Tentacle range from 16 meters to 14 meters.
- Reduced Enraged mode time from 45 seconds to 40 seconds.
- Reduced Enraged bonus time when performing a perfectly timed grab-attack from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
- Reduced Reticule Stickiness Time effect on targeted Survivor from 0.3 seconds to 0.18 seconds.
- Reduced Reticule aiming on Survivor detection for grab-attack by 94%.
- Reduced Grab-attacks Damage minimum distance requirement to activate over obstacles by -30%.
- After breaking a pallet, if the Killer Power is not in cooldown, power goes into a forced cooldown equal to a single Leap usage.
- Addon Fresh Coffee: Changed rarity from Common to Very Rare.
- Addon Hinami's Umbrella: Reworked Effect - Performing a perfectly timed grab-attack award an extra +10.0 seconds of Enraged bonus time and changed rarity from Very Rare to Uncommon.
- Addon Blood stained Handkerchief: Reduced Kagune's reach from 2 meters to 1 meter.
- Addon Taiyaki: Reduced the Enraged Mode countdown from 15 seconds to 5 seconds and changed rarity from Uncommon to Common.
- Addon Yamori's Mask: Added the activation requirement of "all Survivors further than 40m".
Ghoul literally had a giant list of nerfs going from PTB to Live, and then another giant list of nerfs soon after in a hotfix. There wasn't any "let's wait and see" for all these changes.
You’re talking about PTB changes, but my comment was referring to live gameplay, once something is actually in the game. That’s when the ‘give it time, let players adjust’ argument always comes out (which it rightfully should.) With Ghoul, like your example, when he first came out plenty of people said survivors just needed to learn the counterplay and didn’t believe he needed any additional adjustments. Behavior acknowledged the concerns or frustrations of players and reassured that they were monitoring it. My point is that the same was not down for this item. That same grace period was not given.
- New Killer - The Ghoul
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I really don’t understand why the community couldn’t get some time to adjust and learn counterplay for awhile before adjustments were made. Hasn’t that been the insistence with every killer release? I don’t understand why these items are held to a different standard.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978100#Comment_3978100
I don't think something should exist in the game if it actively causes the removal of counterplay to an entire section of survivor gameplay for the killer side… yes.
To be fair, this can be used as a criticism for Nurse. She can bypass every kind of counter play. I am not against adjustments being made to the fog vials, but this feels much too soon. People are quite vocal about allowing new killers some time for people to adjust and learn counterplay before they are nerfed, I don’t understand why this same approach should not be taken for the fog vials.
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@Nyxamour said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976958#Comment_3976958
What do you mean? The devs have said its fine. Exploit away, screw playing by any sort of in game rules, do whatever you want according to the devs!
Just because you have the ability to be terrible doesn’t mean you should be terrible.
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You absolutely should not knowingly use an exploit or bug.
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I am all for killswitching problematic perks but trying to bring bans into it is where I don’t agree. There is no way to prove someone is knowingly using the perk because of its exploit.
Perks, mechanics, maps are bugged all the time. Merciless storm was bugged for months. Windows that wouldn’t let you vault or made you get stuck in a vault still happen. The game is always updating and more things are always being added so things are always going to need tweaks.
Killswitching should be more common for sure, but handing out a ban without notifying the player that there will be consequences for using perk/item/exploit is a bad idea.
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I think a lot of it is confirmation bias. We have one super negative experience with a certain skin or killer and now we use subconsciously use that to compare other encounters we have with the same skin/killer. Killer can be a bit different, as certain playstyles are attached to certain killers because they benefit greatly from it because of how they work (like slugging with twins) whereas survivors are literally just skins so it’s not nearly as consistent. (Aside from free characters)
I am a Dwight defender as I just love him terribly but I also do tend do defend all free characters more than others as not everyone has the money to buy for some different skin, and so it’s a shame when such negative expectations are put upon them. But I do understand that everyone has personal experiences as well. Hopefully you encounter a Sable and Dwight that bring some good to your future games!
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975271#Comment_3975271
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975269#Comment_3975269
What the hell?
I'm not playing right now just because of the damn non chase bug. It happened in 60/70% of all my matches the day the last chapter dropped, so I simply gave up.
Also BTW Fog Vials are pretty bad. I can see clearly inside their mist.I’m sorry you’ve experienced that. I am still getting faced with awful ping killers or teammates, and I did experience some rubber banding, but I haven’t had to deal with the no chase bug or the fog vile bugs. I absolutely know they’re an issue, and I’m not trying to say that because I haven’t had to deal with them that it isn’t happening, I totally know it is. Hopefully it gets hotfixed
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Similar to the poster above, I do believe the Devs do care about the game, and they are working to make it better. I do also think that they could put the pause on adding more and more content and focus on operation health.
But yes. I do also understand with people getting fed up. Everyone has different thresholds. But honestly I think it’s just… what gaming has become. Most games these days are all about DLC content, loot boxes, a constant cycle of updates and nerfs and buffs. Especially live service games. We basically pay to “rent” or “borrow” their game, but we don’t get to own it. Because of that, I feel quality can be pretty… lax sometimes.
In any case, I am not of the opinion that the devs don’t care about the game, or that they don’t play the game. I do agree that the game is in a bad state right now, and I absolutely don’t blame anyone for walking away or feeling like the game just isn’t worth their time anymore. Everyone’s threshold is different. I haven’t reached that yet, despite being close, but I’m sure I’ll know it when I hit it and I will leave the fog for good.
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I just played about 2 hours or so. I only encountered 1 clown, and 2 trials with fog vials. So most of the games weren’t as bugged as they could have been. Plus the incentives are right back on survivor. They were off for 1 day, the day TWD came, but the very next day incentives were back on survivor instead of killer so, just been getting BP.
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I’ve actually experienced a lot more killer DC ever since they took away the ability to give up on hook. Consequently I’ve also seen more posts about people feeling killer is harder since then too. My guess is that many got used to people giving up, making their matches a stomp.
I do agree with you. And I’ve been advocating for killer bots not just in the case of DC but also to be able to practice against them in customs for a very long time now. The fact that only one role has access to such a powerful resource for 2 years now is unfortunate.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974429#Comment_3974429
Less innocent survivors are punished with Go Next, than without Go Next.
This isn't a "greater good" thing. It's literally "which option causes less innocent survivors to be punished"? And the answer is "Go Next being active".
Are you intentionally ignoring my questions ?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974394#Comment_3974394
Because innocent players are punished when a survivor ragequits.
The Go Next system lowers ragequitting, which lowers the number of innocent survivors that are punished by a teammate ragequitting.
Therefore, Go Next being in the game, results in less innocent survivors being punished overall.
So, I was correct. Your stance is: That the benefit of punishing ragequitters outweighs the cost of punishing innocent survivors.
Also, You didn’t actually answer any of my questions.
I asked why it’s acceptable for Go Next to punish innocent players with real penalties, but you oppose anti-slugging, despite it likely giving no penalties.
Repeating “Go Next helps more than it hurts” doesn’t address that contradiction. By your own logic, if occasional harm to innocent players is acceptable for the greater good, then why isn’t your same standard applied to anti-slugging?
Why is one form of collateral damage acceptable, but not the other?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974336#Comment_3974336
Every time Go Next punishes a ragequitter, it helps protect innocent players.
And Go Next is helping protect innocent players, far more often than it is falsely flagging innocent players.
So your stance is that the benefit of punishing ragequitters outweighs the cost of punishing innocent survivors.
I just can’t agree with that. Wrongful penalties in a live service game are serious. Grade losses, matchmaking locks, and warnings stick with players in a way that can’t be undone with “oh well, it was rare.”
If the principle is that innocent players deserve protection, protecting one group of innocent players shouldn’t come at the expense of punishing another group of innocent players.
Why is it acceptable for Go Next to punish innocent players sometimes, but unacceptable for anti-slugging to exist when it wouldn’t even hand out penalties? Why is a system that has given out penalties to an innocent player “less harmful” than a base-kit mechanic that might just let a survivor stand up in a match?
Can you please explain how this isn’t a blatant double standard?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974309#Comment_3974309
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974317#Comment_3974317
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974314#Comment_3974314
My stance is we currently have A LOT of innocent players that are punished because survivors are bypassing DC penalties. That should matter.
People should be caring that ragequitting punishes innocent players too.
If your concern is protecting innocent players, that should apply across the board, not only when it impacts killers.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974215#Comment_3974215
The Go Next system isn't falsely punishing people anywhere near as often as most people's anti-slugging ideas would.
Look how rare the evidence is for the Go Next false flags. There are people in this forums thread, that would absolutely jump at the chance to prove the Go Next system isn't working properly, but instead of giving their own evidence, they just comment on what happened to other people.
We certainly had a lot of videos floating around the internet of people getting AFK crows, when the anti hiding update happened. So why aren't we seeing a lot of videos floating around the internet, of people getting falsely flagged by the Go Next system?
The system falsely flagging is not some hypothetical scenario. It already happened before. BHVR already disabled the Go Next system once, which alone shows it wasn’t functioning properly.
Here’s the contradiction: You defend Go Next because of the potential good, despite the risk of punishing innocent players. But you oppose anti-slugging for the exact same reason. The only difference is which role it affects.
And realistically, anti-slug will likely mirror anti-camp: no penalties, just a mechanic that mitigates abuse. So is the argument really that (potentially, because we don’t know) a base-kit unbreakable is “worse” than survivors losing grades, being locked out of matchmaking, and receiving DC penalties for things out of their control? Is that your stance?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974184#Comment_3974184
Personally, I think it's a suitable risk that comes with using them. Gotta be smart about when and where you drop them or they can backfire on you. I think the other survivor was trying to help the streamer in that instance, they just disorientated themself in the process lol
Yeah, I understand that. For the record I also didn’t get the impression that the person tried to grief the streamer in your example, but it brought up a concern I didn’t even realize until then- how someone could use them to greif. Though again, now that I think about it, would probably be impossible to prove. In any case, thanks for your thoughts! :)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973921#Comment_3973921
Let's be super honest here. Some of the people claimed it was impossible to fix ragequitting, because they are a ragequitter, and don't want BHVR to patch the loopholes they use to ragequit.
That is the actual problem here. There are people that would lie and exaggerate about the Go Next system, because they want it gone, because they want to ragequit without getting the DC penalties.
That is why every claim against the Go Next system needs to be reviewed. Yes, there might be real problems with the Go Next system, but we need a more accurate estimation of this. For example, is it failing at a rate of 1 in 100,000 or at a rate of 1 in 1,000?
The most helpful thing, would be for people to record their matches, and submit the videos to BHVR if they feel the Go Next system is working incorrectly. If the Go Next system is failing often, then it should be really easy to get recorded video evidence of it failing, right?
get your point about how someone could potentially exaggerate, but dismissing real issues because “some might lie” is a slippery slope. A system that gives strikes, DC penalties, and grade losses shouldn’t ever falsely flag players, period.
The fact that survivors have already gotten real penalties means it’s not just hypothetical. Even if the error rate was/is low, innocent players getting punished is still a problem. And expecting players to record every match to prove innocence isn’t reasonable. Functioning systems shouldnt rely on constant player evidence to be valid.
You and I have personally discussed many times about the potential anti-slug changes. You’ve said that anti slugging changes risk punishing killers for things outside their control, which is why you were against them. But this Go Next system is doing exactly that, but you defend it. Genuinely, Why is that?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973363#Comment_3973363
"We ended up running into each other and I died"
I was watching a streamer last night who was running the killer just fine (albeit injured and on death hook) until a team mate dropped a vial in the tile. The team mate and streamer ran into each other and neither could pass in the space so the killer just came and downed and killed them both lmao
Hm… do you think it would be too powerful if only the killer and the person who dropped the vial would be affected by it?
That way nobody could potentially use them to grief another teammate.
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I think it’s because there’s nothing else like it. If I was frustrated with Valorant, there’s plenty of other games that play just like it. If I was frustrated with Call of Duty or Destiny, again, there’s other games like it. DBDs closest games aren’t anything like it, and they usually don’t survive. There is no game I can say that Nicolas Cage is getting chased by Matthew Lillard in a Springtrap costume… while Lara Croft borrows a flashbang from Leon Kennedy, but ends up fumbling the save because she was body blocked by a screaming Steve Harrington. There simply nothing like it.
I agree with some others here as well that addiction, and a sunken cost fallacy also apply. But I also think the fact that there simply is no alternative to this game, is a big reason why people just can’t let go no matter how poor the quality of life can be.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I'm still wondering why we even add new Killers to 2v8 if none of them have been added to custom matches.
This haunts me. 😔
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972235#Comment_3972235
No, but there's no one perk that does it all. Lucky Break only does scratch marks and pools of blood. Iron Will only does grunts of pain. Quick and Quiet ONLY does vault noises and lockers. I can't think of a perk that removes breathing noises. I think there's a perk that muffles footsteps. Lightfooted?
The point is, that Spirit can counter each of these individual perks by using one of her other methods of tracking. Nothing does it all, and most of these perks are conditional. For instance, Iron Will is directly countered by Genetic Limits because of the exhaustion limitation. So if a survivor REALLY wants to counter Spirit completely, it would take an entire build to do so, and it would still be able to be countered somewhat.
Now, you have an item that does everything, and recharges in about 40 seconds.
Spirit is a 4.4 killer. She can't just "not use her power." You know how Huntress feels when she runs out of hatchets? Yeah, imagine being reduced to that every chase.
I understand your concern, an item that can several different effects split between multiple perks sounds extremely oppressive. But I think we will have to wait and see how it all plays out first before insisting that the killer won't be able to be successful because of it. I feel comparing it to Huntress without hatches isn't a great analogy either because Spirit's power isn't entirely negated even when scratch marks are harder to read. She can still get fast repositioning, mind-game potential, and map pressure that other 4.4 killers like her don't have. A huntress without hatches simply cannot physically make the hatchet play at all, the spirit can still use her power but it isn't as guarenteed as before.
But again, if you're right and this absolutely guts her killrate, I will gladly stand right beside you and demand compensation buffs until it comes back to at least a 60%. Spirit players deserve the ability to have success with this killer, and it is of my opinion that it is too soon to tell if item is going to prevent that success. I understand you feel differently, and that's okay.
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I think it's far too soon to tell if this item is going to damage her kill rates or not. I am certain that if that is the case, that if we see her success plummet from her 66% to les than 60%, then I'm sure the devs will buff her accordingly. There are plenty of perks in-game that can make tracking sounds and scratch marks/blood more difficult, but I don't believe they've made her unviable.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971934#Comment_3971934
It's almost impossible to get grabbed. The chance of this happening is ridiculously small since you need to guess the door the survivor entered through. Besides, you can look at the HUD and not enter the doors if no survivors are being chased. It's completely safe to use the doors.
I think this is very case by case. I only used doors 3 times and 2 times out of the 3 I got grabbed which is why I never used em’ again. Just my personal experience but it definitely didn’t seem so impossible.
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🎉🥳 congrats!!
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I used to be able to get a hatch by dropping off items like this but it doesn’t work out for me much anymore.
I do get decent results when I willingly offer myself up at end game though. If I’m the last one, instead of trying to find hatch I go out of my way to find the killer and I’d say about 30% of the time they will give me hatch. But only if I’m the very last one. I used to offer myself up if it was me and one other person, (to give the other person a chance at hatch) but ever since the AFK changes and stuff, I’m typically just slugged while they find the other survivor so I don’t recommend offering yourself until it’s only you left.
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Using shaders is not bannable, but it is use at your own risk. Even fog whisper members like Otz and SpookyLoopz (I believe?) both use them.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971269#Comment_3971269
Yeah, I think they're only looking to address the most egregious cases of tunneling and slugging (i.e. The first person they see at the very start of the match, ignoring everyone else until that first Survivor is dead, or the four-man bleed out at five gens). They've said multiple times that they don't want to eliminate tunneling and slugging as legit strategies.
So if we don't notice any major differences after these features are implemented, it'll just mean that it wasn't as big a problem as people claimed. The only Killers that would be affected would be the ones who swear by tunneling and slugging from the get-go.
That’s a total fair, and rather interesting point. Because if changes to tunneling or slugging are made and we dont see much of an improvement in solo q quality of games, or the wait times for killer vs. survivor, then that does mean that tunneling and slugging were never really that much of an issue to the point where people would stop playing survivor because of it.
At the same time, it would also mean that the survivor role is still very unpopular in comparison to killer even without tunneling or slugging which would be an entirely different cause for concern. It’s almost like a mystery illness and treating the patient for multiple things. You can rule out one cause, which does get you closer to the solution, but it still doesn’t end the suffering of the patient. It will be interesting to see regardless, and any progress being made towards better quality of life is commendable. Here’s hoping!
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Considering how the queue times for killer seems to be increasing, and incentives have been on survivor for … a few months now? Survivor definitely is in a current state that people have to be bribed to play it, and even then killers are still waiting 5+ minutes while survivor is instant. I would agree it should be cause for some concern. Hopefully the changes in phase 2 will help with some of these pain points but.. I have seen others point to the “anti-face camping” when we thought we were getting “anti-camping” and am a bit worried the anti-slug and anti-tunnel are going to be similar. But we will have to wait and see! Cautiously optimistic.
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It’s one of those perks that gives you value without any kind of secondary activation, which is rare these days and useful. Plus, knowing where the gens are is always valuable. Imagine if killer didn’t get to see the auras of the gens base-kit, but there was a perk that let you do it. I could see it being quite popular on the killer side too, but because they always have kind of information the perk may seem a little silly at first
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Obviously you can play however you want to play with whomever you want to play as. Everyone is different. While it’s ultimately on the devs for allowing certain things to be allowed in the game, I do think there is an always personal responsibility. For example, during the busted MFT era, I stopped using it once I realized how broken it was. Did everyone else stop? Absolutely not. But I did, because a part of me knew deep down that it wasn’t fair. Whether ghoul is fair or not is very controversial, I personally would like for killrates to come out to help define that question. I have my experiences, sure, but I like to see the evidence before committing fully.
I would probably just ask yourself this. Are you having second thoughts about playing him because many people just don’t like facing him? Or are you having second thoughts about playing him because you yourself don’t enjoy facing him?
Either way, you’re not doing anything wrong. Gliyn!
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969599#Comment_3969599
I think something more like basekit endurance for both people on pickup could be a potential solution like with WGLF/Made for this. It drastically reduces snowball potential and excessive slugging. If three people are downed and a single survivor can sorta gaurentee that you can get people up semi safely it could work.
That's a really good suggestion. I agree with that idea.
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969485#Comment_3969485
That would be kinda useless then, the issue is not really recovery times.
That’s totally fine if you disagree. I personally think increasing the recovery rate on the ground can be very useful. Certain perks do this already, and in my experience can eventually lead to a pick up happening quicker because your teammates are less likely to come grab you if your recovery is extremely low. I personally worry about a base-kit UB being way too risky/strong, as they had already tried it before and it didn’t work out too well. In any case, looking forward to whatever changes we will see. Effort is always appreciated.
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@Destaice said:
My guess is it will work like a reversal of anti-camp where a meter fills while the killer is far away and if the meter is full a survivor can get up.
This exact premise has been my suggestion for anti-slugging. In my proposal, when the killer leaves a certain radius of the downed sector, their recovery bar speeds up faster and faster the further away the killer gets. It doesn’t grant a base-kit unbeatable, but it makes recovery time much quicker if the killer is trying to mass slug by going across the map.
We will see what the changes have in store.
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@tjt85 said:
Thank you for posting this. Some of the stand out responses for me:
Sounds like the Fog Vial might be DOA as I feared. I guess I'll have to see for myself how useless it's gonna be when it comes to live.
P100 reward is a badge. Bit disappointed by that, since I don't care much for badges and I would prefer a charm instead, but at least it's something.
Stealth is kinda dead (as we know) because the game has moved away from it as that's what the players want, apparently. I'm sorry, but what players? Personally, I'd like a balance of play styles. And if the game is to be about looping, why do so many maps have terrible filler pallets on the edge of the map and not much else between?
Glad to hear they are working on a better tutorial, though.
Yes, that’s a great point. If the game truly is no longer wanting stealth to be viable then filler pallets and maps really should be looked at.
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@R2k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969149#Comment_3969149
Then let's together demand a proper MMR/Rank system. It's not player side problem. Game itself puts players with over X hours vs inexperienced. You can't just expect killers to play for survivors fun and then get blamed because they didn't get fun. It's not how Fun works. Killers also want their part of fun. And 4K is one of them. Killer to begin with is a SOLO player vs 4 players.
How do you think it feels when 4 guys bully weaker killer, huh? Why all of a sudden 4 survivors feelings matter more? If you all failed at 5 gens, blame yourself, your teammates, but where's killer fault here? He played well so now you blame him for being good? That's hilarious.Nobody is saying that killers shouldn't have fun or that they should be bullied. In fact, I believe the devs have done a great job in making the killer role much stronger than it used to be. This has been proven, and we're seeing how preferrable one role has become over the other right now, hence the entire point of this discussion. MMR does need some tweaks and it is on the roadmap. Survivors feelings don't matter more than killers, it's because killer feelings were taken so seriously that the game has shfited into where it is right now. The game is extremely different than it was 3 or 4 years ago, and it's because the devs are constantly adjusting the game based on player feedback and experience. Both roles deserve happiness, quality of life, and should be allowed to voice concerns or frustrations.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968717#Comment_3968717
See, I don't mind the games being harder. I don't like it when it feels unfair. When I use a perk that gives me Undetectable or makes the survivor Oblivious, yet they still pre-run about a mile because their buddy that I just hooked told them I was coming their way. Or when I bring Franklin's, and the entire squad just… drops their items. When they all start pre-dropping because I used Endfury one time.
But it's not even just that. It's knowing where your friends are at all times.
"I need a heal."
"Come to the gen by shack, I've got Botany."
Then you have certain killers that just get destroyed by SWFs. Xeno, for instance. Comms let you set up a turret (or two), and have the survivor being chased swing by to gain some extra distance. The survivor being chased will start heading to the turret before the turret has even been placed.
Or knowing which generator to work. When I'm playing solo, I don't know which gen Bill was working before he got chased off. I need to use a perk slot to get that info. SWFs? "The gen in the jungle gym across from main is at 90%." I don't know to let Nancy get the save because she has We'll Make It. I don't know that I can leave Sable slugged because she has Unbreakable.
And none of these things are "comp level" communications. These are just things that you're naturally going to tell your friends over the course of the game. If you're in a group, you don't have to waste perk slots on getting information, because you have all the information you could want and then some. You can pile on the second chance perks, healing perks, and chase perks.
Everyone's threshold for what feels unfair is definitely wide and different. I'm not going to invalidate your feelings/experiences even though we may disagree about certain issues regarding SWF (mainly because I am a person that needs to go by evidence along with experience to properly form an opinion on something). But I dare say that there's many things in DBD that are unfair, and have always been unfair, and kind of are intentionally unfair. I do believe the game is not balanced - intentionally so. I know some people disagree with that idea, but the game has lasted much longer than any other in its genre so… perhaps crazy chaos/unfairness is the key lol.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968732#Comment_3968732
I think more than anything, this last 3 years has proven how resilient Survivors are. We expect to die most of the time, so it's naturally a bit less dramatic. But we've put up with diminishing returns to a ridiculous degree. If anti-go next was even slightly less terrible, I think it would've stayed. That's why I have very low hopes that phase 2 will actually do anything to help the game, but we'll see. You never know until it goes live.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968823#Comment_3968823
It's exhaustion. They'd rather the Killer be stuck with a bot and eat the penalty, because at the very least they aren't killing a real player. I tend to see it after a battle of attrition usually.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968863#Comment_3968863
Until the game is changed completely, it's gonna be a very slow back and forth. BHVR prides itself on its work practices, which listen—I don't think it's a net negative that devs aren't married to their projects or sleeping on the floor 2 weeks before launch anymore. But, that's a far cry from having what appears to be poor time management. I won't get into all of it, but it's obvious to me that that's likely what's going on. So we'll continue to get patches that conflict with one another or go into effect long after they're needed and promises that take years to fulfill.
We need a game that is dynamic, offers much more autonomy to players, is either conservative or liberal with the amount of busted mechanics you can use (not in the middle like it is now), and most important of all a clear direction for what the game is and what it's meant to accomplish. Realistically however, all of that is a pipe dream. At least at this point in time. So we can only hope that the pendulum swings toward something for fun sometime very soon before it moves again.
Yes, I agree with the resilence for sure. While the community can be very "toxic", most of the time it does stem from a place of passion, I believe. The game is constantly changing and the community has still stuck with it, even if some changes people don't like while other changes people praised for. I think that in all honesty, Survivor is a role that can still benefit from being the weaker role, I don't think the issue is losing but more so how you lose. But in any case, I do agree that in order to consistently play survivor, you do have to have passion for the game, because you have to be okay with losing more than you win.
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Congrats!!!!! 🍾 🍾🍾
Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
P100 Skull Merchant?
General, that's YOU!💙 GLIYN!
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You don't need to worry about inaccurate results, as any DC are not counted in the stats. But yeah, players quitting should be taken seriously.
I bring this point up alot but before the massive shift of the game to put killers in a power role, killers themselves were getting scarce. Nobody wanted to play killer because there was a ton of ridiculous busted stuff in the game. The wait times were getting super long, and the players of the killer role were very unsatisfied. This pushed the devs to make several big changes to make the killer role more appealing, bring players back, and help with wait times.
The only reason the game changed is because killers were unhappy with the state the game was in. I personally believe they had every right to be. The difference is now survivors aren't happy with the state the game is in, but instead of it being taken seriously, it's often labeled as entitled or unreasonable. Survivors are pretty unsatisfied with the survivor role, currently, and we're seeing the effects of it so intensely that they had to implement an entire system just to stop people from quitting the game. I don't condone quitting, but I don't ignore it either. It was an issue when killers weren't enjoying their role, it should be an issue when survivors aren't either. Phase 2 is said to be focusing on alot of pain points, so hopefully it will help.
I'm sorry DC's are ruining your matches. I wish you better games and hope that things change in the future with phase 2. Cheers!
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968678#Comment_3968678
The problem is that I, like most killers, would literally never queue up for the "Play against SWFs mode." I would honestly rather them delete every slowdown perk in the game than play against someone on comms. I would play the no-swf mode even if they just took away all perks and all addons.
I see that as a problem too. I'm against killers being able to see if it's a SWF and against survivors being able to see what killer they're about to face for the same reason: too many people would lobby dodge. I think the idea of seperate Rank mode sounds good at first, and even I myself had suggested it in the past but, I realized that the only way anything like that would work is if there was something you could get in Ranked mode that you couldn't get in standard mode. Like special rewards or something. Access to certain perks/killers/items that don't exist in standard. Otherwise, not many people would want to willingly make their games harder.
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First off, how you feel is completely valid , personal experience is as important just as much as stats. That said, the data does show that killer is the power role by design. they win more often than they lose. But that doesn’t mean the role isn’t stressful, it just means the stress looks different than it does for survivors.
Survivor is statistically harder to win, but killer is entirely dependent on individual performance making it more stressful. That leads to a tricky balance when we talk about fairness and role incentives.
For example:If killer were made less stressful but won less often than survivor would that feel fair?
Or if survivor became more stressful but started winning more than killer would that feel fair?
In an ideal world, both roles would be equally rewarding and fun. But in an asymmetrical game, that’s not realistic. It’s not meant to be equal, there is a give and take between both roles. Both roles offer something the other role can’t, and it’s that players choice on which one they prefer or if they prefer both!Personally, I think killer should be the power role. they’re solo, they don’t have teammates to lean on, and it makes sense from a horror genre perspective. Winning more often makes the role worth playing, even with its stress.
I don’t think survivor needs to win more than killer, I think the issue is how survivors lose. Losses that feel unfair, or cheap, like getting slugged all game or tunneled out immediately, in my opinion are the real problem with losing. I think survivor role should lose more, but the losses should feel deserved. I’m not a fan of snowballing either, and it can happen to both roles. That’s why I’m in favor of unpopular ideas like a base-kit slowdown that affects both roles.
In your opinion, what are some ways you think the killer role could be made less stressful/more fun without making it stronger?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967175#Comment_3967175
This isn't a bad idea at all. It could even be simplified so that each realm has 3 distances that are altered depending on who's playing.
Hey, thanks. Yeah, I think there’s plenty of potential there for small adjustments or variations of maps. I think it’s kinda crazy how sometimes it’s not if the killer is more skilled, or if the survivors are more skilled, it’s just the map lol. Maps should be an even playing field.