hermitkermit
hermitkermit
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@100PercentBPMain said:
Idk if I'm just not understanding, I haven't dived too deep into thr 2v8 info but does this not promote even more slugging?
I found myself slugging a TON more in 2v8. I'm usually an "insta picker" but 2v8 forces you to slug constantly due to sheer numbers. Nothing crazy, just breaking pallets and gens before hooks. This change would just make that way worse, would it not?
I'm not opposed to a mercy mechanic on principle if it helps drive engagement but idk if this is it
They are adding a base-kit unbreakable in this new mode to counter slugging, along with flashlight saves and pallet saves, as now killers have to pick up, no more stomp hook. It’s interesting because in the 1st 2v8 there really wasn’t a legitimate reason to slug as no perks or flash/pallet saves were even possible, but now they’ve added actual legitimate reasons to slug-to counter slugging. Only time will tell if it works out, but enabling saves and base kit unbreakable seem to be the natural path for a solution. I’m sure if it goes terrible then they will change it again. I’m personally really happy they are making changes each time to ensure that when it does become permanent it’s been thoroughly play tested.
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I think Gen Rushing does exist, but itan entire build dedicated to doing so, along with items (and I base this on what the original term was created for). I asked long ago for people to define "gen rushing" and I was met with a miriad of answers. Pretty much everyone said, "It's what I want it to be." Which did feel very strange because if everyone gets to decide what gen rushing is then you can't define it and if you can't define it you can't understand it. And when compared to tunneling, which has a very clear and strict set of requirements for it to be considered tunneling, it is difficult to hold the two comparable since one seems more opinion based than the other. That said, while gen rushing might not exist in the same way it did when the term was coined (since the game has changed), it's still possible to build for it today, it’s just evolved from its original form and is nowhere near as broken as it used to be (which is good!)
Appreciate your perspective though.
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Majority of the survivor playerbase are solo. And those that play full SWF seemed to matched up often against the top MMR killer players, if what those killer players say on the forums is true, which seems to make sense honestly. If you're in the top MMR, best 5% of players in the world I would expect those crazy hardcore 4 man SWF to be there. They did release statistics awhile ago about the percentages of those who play solo, 2man, 3man, and 4. And 4 man SWF seemed pretty rare. And the escape rates were about 8% more than completely solo, even in top MMR. Standard average 4 man escape rate was at 43%. So I'm not really sure there is any "balance" to be done, because a 40% escape rate is what the Devs want, which is right where survivor is. If 40% is "fair" is completely subjective and is a very hot topic and eveyrone has a seperate opinoin about it. Top SWF is at 48%, which is still less than half and it's important to consider that it is a small minority of the survivor playerbase. It wouldn't be right to balance the game around Nurse so I don't think it's right to balance around SWF either, both are a very small minoirty of the playerbase though both can be strong (can, not are, because not all Nurses are p100 Gods, and not all 4man SWFS are comp players).
So I guess it depends on what you think the survival rate should be, because depending on that will be the baseline on what "balance changes" would be implemented for either experience.
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I’m sure that if flashlights and pallet saves are proved to be too powerful they will make changes. Someone suggested survivors instantly getting hooked once downed which could bypass both slugging and flashlights/pallets, so maybe that will happen. Giving survivors these tools to help combat slugging feels like the natural path but time will tell if it’s over-tuned. Luckily no changes or current states in 2v8 are final. Just testing out different solutions.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810751#Comment_3810751
A more simple solution would be to just send downed survivors directly to a cage, as you say there’a no reason to slug as it only took a second to send them yourself even if you want to chase another close by survivor.
I agree that your suggestion would completely remove slugging, as it would be literally impossible to do so. But it takes away even more interaction between killer and survivor, which the devs did mention was one of the main complaints. Personally as long as slugging is heavily discouraged be it this pick up system they’re talking about or by your idea of survivors instantly getting hooked while down, I don’t care too much. As I can’t do flashlight saves for the life of me. But for the overall health and enjoyment of the game mode, it was something people really missed so I suppose we will see what happens. I just don’t want to be slugged and bled out again lol
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@kisfenkin said:
The most legitimate reason killers slug is literally due to pallet saves and flashlight saves. So they announce they are going to 'fix' slugging by allowing flashlight and pallet saves in 2v8.
Instead of less slugging, we will have more. The killer needs to only spot the job that can unbreakaBill (one of the classes can pick themselves up), and that's the only survivor class that they have to cage. Everyone else will be slugged because you have now given them a legitimate reason to slug…
There was no incentive to slug in 2v8 because there were no pallets and flashlights, but it still happened and happened frequently enough that they are making changes to address it now. They did not have any legitmate reasons to slug in 2v8 but many killers showed that they don't need a legitmate reason to do it, if they can they will because it was easier and some people have fun doing it. I understand your worry that because they have to counter flashlights and pallets they may slug more, but if they slugged without those things, then what is the solution?
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Survivors are at their strongest at start of the game. So if a killer is effectively steam rolling at the start when all the pallets are still up, everyone had both health states and no hooks- then it’s a pretty telling sign for the rest of the game. I’m not a fan when people give up but the more hours I play the more I understand why.
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@Backmon said:
I have better idea remove hatch entierly and do not let last survivor undeserved free win. And if last survivor stay at 3 gen left he should repairing this generator by itself without any hand holding or give up yourself to the killer
..You want a single survivor to complete the objectives designed for four?
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810046#Comment_3810046
it still is a skill issue. Survivors have tools to deal with these strategies but too many survivors don't want to be good at the game, they want free escapes
Then we simply disagree. It's not exclusively a skill issue because while survivors have tools to counter it, these tools come at a perk slot cost, are temporary, and have specific requirements while tunneling is a perkless strategy that can be executed at any time without limitations or costs. Saying that "they don't want to be good at the game" when using tunneling as an example of skill is interesting. Tunneling is much easier to do than to counter. The effort you put into tunneling compared to the value you get out of it is not equal, which is why it’s so popular. If it were difficult to execute it wouldn’t be such a common tactic.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810017#Comment_3810017
You know what has never been done for killers. More rewards for spreading hooks. Tunneling and camping (and slugging) are seen often, because they are the most rewarded playstyles even with basekit mechanics to turn down their effectiveness. This isn't a problem that will be solved by adding basekit mechanics. The game fundamentally rewards killers for getting early kills just like it rewards survivors for getting gens done quickly.
I agree with this 100%. But what you said in your original post that it was a skill issue, as if it was the survivors fault for not being able to overcome a very oppressive and common playstyle that a combination of both perks and basekit mechanics still cannot deter. It is on the Devs for having the easiest way to secure wins or get pressure to be the hardest thing to counter, and it is on those who use these tactics regardless if they are needed, but simply because of the conveinece. In my opinion, Tunneling should be directly tied to gen speeds. Everytime a different survivor is hooked gens get a repair speed nerf, making them take longer to complete. Everytime a survivor is hooked consecutively gens get a repair speed buff making them take shorter to complete. Killers are rewarded for multiple hooks from multiple targets but still retain the ability to tunnel if they so wish to, it just is no longer the most optimal way to play the game. Providing this kind of base-kit gen slowdown can also free up killer perk variety so they don't feel as if they have to run gen regression, similar to the way survivros shouldn't feel as if they have to run anti-tunnel perks.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809883#Comment_3809883
But it also helps against good comp teams. So no perk shouldnt be changes because low skill survivors and beginners doesnt know how to play arount it. Perks balance should not be around this players but around comp SWF teams. And if they cant get good its only their problem (remember how this low skill survivors cry because of Freddy and SM cause they cant ignore their powers and just sit on gen the entire game)
Balancing the game around a minority of 3-6% (SWF) of a playerbase instead of the majoirty is not in the best interest of the game or its players. For the same reasons why the game shouldn't be balanced around Nurse. Both SWF and Nurse can be strong, but both represent a small minority and both do not always mean skillful play.
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@Crowman said:
At some point you just need to recognize there's a skill issue. The more BHVR adds basekit mechanics against tunneling or camping, the more people complain about tunneling and camping so these basekit mechanics clearly aren't solving the issue. Survivors have tools to deal with these strategies they refuse to use, because they unreasonably expect to be immune to dying early.
People have been upset with Tunneling and Camping long before any kind of basekit mechanics were introduced. People are still upset because these basekit mechanics are still not enough to deter Tunneling and Camping because the value you get out of both of these tactics far exceeds the cost. Even with small basekit mechanics it is still not enough which is why there are various perks to try and further counter, not that they should be required. In order to counter something very oppressive someone else can do completely perkless, you are forced/expected to equip a perk(s), the perk(s) is not free, the perk(s) is for a limited amount of time and it is heavily restricted. To question why people are still frustrated seems obvious.
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It’s an interesting idea, though likely very unpopular. I understand the thought behind it. I really don’t agree with one “side” being required to being a perk (that is not even free) to counter something the other “side” can do completely perk less.
I would remove collision so that survivors couldn’t tank a hit for someone else, and keep the restrictions that prevent you from having protection while progressing the game through any actions.
Personally when it comes to tunneling I think gen speeds should be affected. If a killer spreads hooks, gens get a repair speed nerf, so they take longer time overall. If the killer hooks the same survivor consecutively then gens get a repair speed buff making them take shorter time overall. Both stack overtime. I think this would encourage spreading hooks and reward the killer for taking the time to chase multiple targets, while not taking away the option to tunnel completely if they feel they need to. It just wouldn’t be the most optimal way to play anymore as it doesn’t give them the same kind of pressure as before and it increases the chances of everyone at least getting to play the game.
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This is most definitely not a “survivor” problem. Killers use the same perk builds as well. It’s more of “DBD Meta, wins over variety” problem. You trying to turn this into a way to discredit the struggles of survivors or to prop them up as some kind of hive mind points to hypocrisy and having a strong bias that disregards simple fact.
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Survivor gameplay suffers from collective punishment. So everyone is punished for the mistakes of 1. And you have 4 people bound to make at least 1 or 2 mistakes— not becasue they’re all bad but because we’re human and this is a video game and it’s unrealistic to expect people to never make a single mistake or two in a video game. So that’s at least 4 mistakes possibly 8, that everyone will feel. Survivor is hard.
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The player that always looks out for themselves tend to escape more often. Unfortunately there isn't much incentive for that player not to play that way if escape/"win" is the only thing they want to do. It's a team role but you don't win or lose as a team. It's bound to upset people when you play that way but DBD isn't a community well known for not engaging in playstyles that the mass of people don't enjoy. Survivor role suffers from collective punishment so many people that don't make the mistakes but end up suffering because of their team are more likely to play more selfish or just hide. And it's pretty rare for a killer to notice selfish gameplay and penalize the player for it, as it makes for an easier game for them if they just let that player sandbag or farm hooks etc.
So, yeah I agree with you, the survivors who engage in selfish playstyles tend to survive more often.
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@Langweilig said:
I won‘t through me into the killer for other survivors anymore. Either they leave me on hook and leave through the gates or they die immediately anyway after I took the hits and got downed.
I had a match yesterday like that. I tried my best the whole game against a Ghostface in chaos shuffle. I took aggro, did 2 gens on my own, got unhooks, and healed. I took chases but he would leave me for someone else after awhile. In the end everyone was on dead hook and I hadn’t been hooked once, and when ghostie downed 1 of the team in the exit gate, I took both hits forcing the ghostie to drop them. He carried me to hook. But then all 3 just left me. The ghostie even looked at me at the hook and then hit me as if to say that sucks bro. 2 of the people were p100s too. I ended up scoring more bp than all of them even though I was the only one who died.
Unfortunately making the right decisions and playing well in survivor doesn’t mean you get to survive. Survivor is not an easy role. It suffers from collective punishment. I know people say that the better player should win, but in survivor that’s not always possible, and often times your fate is entirely out of your hands no matter how much skill or effort you put into the game. It’s a shame I’m still so addicted to it lol
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So, you see that WoO helps survivors, and because it's helpful it should be nerfed?
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Well, toxicity is defined as being very harmful or unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way. And everyon has their own interpretations of unpleasantess, and different people can be harmed in different ways. Someone telling someone else to jump off a bridge may be laugable to some, and devastating to others, so it's important to consider that just because you personally find it to be toxic doesn't mean it was intended that way, but that doesn't mean the unintentions of being toxic were not toxic to that other person. It's tricky to define but that's why large groups of people that can come together and agree that "X" is wrong, can be used as a guiding path to determine what is "wrong" and what is right. Quite literally like a jury.
How it applies to DBD, I believe it should be treated the same and with some circumstances does. If a large group of people all agree that this specific aspect of the game is wrong and unhealthy, Devs often listen to it, and make changes. It's not always the changes the people want, but it's effort, which should be appreciated. You will always have a minoirty disagree, because they don't personally feel the same as the majority. But it doesn't make much sense to ignore the majority in favor of the minority.
So to put it very simply in just terms of the game, to swing it back to the original defiintion, if you are doing something that the majority has agreed is unplesant, harmful and is seen as pervasive and insidious, then you are doing something "toxic".
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Hm.. Maybe it will finally get some attention to get this perk reworked. Slugging is already very powerful and almost impossible to fully counter if you don’t have very specific perks. I still think it’s a bit slanted to be forced to equip perks to counter something that the other “side” can do completely perkless, but knockout definitely makes slugging much worse so hopefully some changes to it will be made, especially with the hooks never disappearing anymore.
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@Destaice said:
Short answer: no
Long answer;
4 large eggs
1 1/4 cups (106g) Dutch-process cocoa
1 teaspoon table salt
1 teaspoon baking powder
1 teaspoon espresso powder, optional for enhanced flavor
1 tablespoon King Arthur Pure Vanilla Extract
16 tablespoons (227g) unsalted butter
2 1/4 cups (447g) granulated sugar
1 1/2 cups (180g) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
2 cups (340g) chocolate chips
Preheat the oven to 350°F. Lightly grease a 9" x 13" pan. If you plan to turn the whole sheet of brownies out of the pan at once, grease the pan, line it with parchment, and grease the parchment.
Crack the 4 eggs into a bowl, and beat them at medium speed with the cocoa, salt, baking powder, espresso powder, and vanilla for about 1 minute, or until smooth. You can do this while you're melting your butter (next step).
In a medium-sized microwave-safe bowl, or in a saucepan set over low heat, melt the butter, then add the sugar and stir to combine. Or simply combine the butter and sugar, and heat, stirring, until the butter is melted. Continue to heat (or microwave) briefly, just until the mixture is hot (about 110°F to 120°F), but not bubbling; it'll become shiny looking as you stir it. Heating the mixture to this point will dissolve more of the sugar, which will help produce a shiny top crust on your brownies.
Add the hot butter/sugar mixture to the egg/cocoa mixture, stirring until smooth.
Add the flour and chips, stirring until smooth. Again, adding the chips helps produce a shiny top crust.
Spoon the batter into a lightly greased 9" x 13" pan.
Bake the brownies for 28 to 32 minutes, until the edges feel set, and the center should look very moist, but not uncooked. When testing to see if brownies are done, take a toothpick or the tip of a sharp knife and carefully poke it into the center of the pan, digging around just enough to see the interior. You should see moist crumbs, but no uncooked batter. Yes, you'll be left with a small divot in the center of your brownies; just cut around it when you're cutting the brownies into squares.
Remove them from the oven and cool on a rack before cutting and serving.
📝📝 👩🍳
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807145#Comment_3807145
Yeah I mean that's fair, constructive criticism is great…
But if you read the OP... sheesh xD
Yeah, fair enough, I do agree there's definitely a line between constructive criticism and just complaining. I see what you mean lol
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807145#Comment_3807145
Maybe if players want to leave feedback, they should create feedback threads (which the devs will actually read).
As far as being appreciative, most players are likely children. Good luck getting anything other than entitlement from the average ten year old.
Feedback tagged threads are not the only ones that bhvr interacts with. There have been plenty of times other posts have captured their attention, and they will comment. Sometimes it's random stats that have to do with the post in question, sometimes clarifying information or misinformation, etc. Also when it comes to your opinion on most players being children, I'm not comfortable assuming or unassuming that because I'm not sure there is any evidence in support of either claim. All I can say is throughout the years when meeting other players in game, on streams, or through other social media I've only ran into a single 17 year old, the rest were all adults (just from my small pool of experience ). And I'm unsure about your personal interactions but I have met plenty of adults who are quite entitled lol.
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@UndeddJester said:
Why do people keep getting mad at limited time modes that they don't even have to play? Like who is forcing you? Same as Light's Out... why do people who hate the mode play it and then complain? 😅
I thought people loved Chaos Shuffle... it was very popular last time...
2vs8 haters had a legit argument because that did hurt queue time for the regular game, but what's with people suddenly going in hard on fun little modes they can literally ignore for no penalty? 😅
I mean this is the forums, it's literally designed for feedback both good and bad. I do get what you mean though. Sometimes it's hard to see nothing but complaints everywhere but if nobody complained about anything then no changes would ever happen, and sometimes those changes really do need to happen. (I'm not talking about the modifiers just in general) It's a shame the community can't be more appreciative though.
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@H2H said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806929#Comment_3806929
Don't hard tunnel. Don't hard camp. Don't intentionally make the game miserable for the survivors.I wish this was true. Even the most recent game I played from last night, I didn’t tunnel, I didn’t camp, I didn’t slug, I didn’t bring gen slowdown, I didn’t 3 gen. I got a 2K and what did I see in endgame chat?
“L lightborn user, touch grass and learn to play”
Yup. I brought lightborn like I usually do counter flashbangs, didn’t even end up using it that game, but no, I need to “learn to play.”
There’s no way to make survivors happy. They will always find something to complain about the way killers play.
Lol I liked your will smith meme! In all seriousness though I am sorry about your experience. Getting yelled at for lightborn is crazy. I'm sorry about that. Of course, obligatory it's not one "side" that does this, I'm sure you've had plenty of experiences of survivors as you've described and I myself have had plenty of killers that do the same things. I got yelled out for using WoO so I get it. One "side" isn't inherently toxic, the people that are jerks on 1 "side" stay jerks on the other, always finding something to be unhappy about. Don't let it get you down. It's not all bad 💙I wish you better games in the fog
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@moputopia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805818#Comment_3805818
interesting, I didn't think it was latency at all when watching this clip.
What you described can definitely happen and is frustrating, but in this clip it would be stranger to push the Killer on the other side in my opinion. If you throw the pallet very late (like in this clip, where the Killer has almost fully walked through it) + the Killer swings through the pallet, it's not uncommon to end up on the same side.
Hm, I see. I guess I haven’t encountered it before so it surprised me. Thanks for clearing it up! Feels good to know how it happened now.
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@n000b51 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805685#Comment_3805685
I think this Cheryl wanted initially to loop around the pallet+wall but she noticed she was late hearing the chainsaw's sound, then she hesitated or changed her plan, try to vaccum the pallet but was too far to do it properly & got the first free M1 before the pallet-stun. Then probably she noticed to be on the wrong side of the pallet, attempting a fast vault but her timing was bad or something bc she received her second free hit during the animation.
The counter of that is probably to double-back after to drop the pallet, then instantly to fast vault it with Lithe or Finess (probably the only ways to avoid the hit). Some players avoid very well my hits in this way, or I sometimes fail it. So it is possible…Yeah it’s the latency that threw me off I think. Getting thrown to the same side of the pallet as the killer, while still getting a stun and hit all at the same time makes it seems like she clipped through which isn’t supposed to happen, and after that I think the right choice was to slide across the pallet not to stand in front of a billy, but then it didn’t end up mattering even if it was the right choice. It seems like a latency or clipping issue which is why it felt weird cause it’s nobody’s fault but can’t really counter ping and stuff. Flashbacks of vaulting through and being on the other side of the window running away but then suddenly getting dragged back in a grab come to mind lol. In any case thank you for your input! I appreciate it!
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@moputopia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805685#Comment_3805685
I think it's similar to for example Spirit Fury. It will likely catch Survivors off guard the first time, since they don't know the perk is in play, but after that they have to either drop the pallet a little early, or just take a hit without dropping the pallet on the Killer (at least not at the last second, where the Killer is on the same side as you).
In this clip the Cheryl went for a pretty risky stun, and ended on the same side of the pallet as Killer. It's the one situation you can get a quick down with Enduring, so you should probably not play for stuns much if the Killer has Enduring.
I think it's on the same level of fairness as other perks that you need to see in use once to know to outplay them, like idk Dead Hard or Starstruck.
I think it just throws me because the pallet stuns registering on the same side like that means she clipped through the killer which isn’t supposed to happen. Kind of like when a killer gets stunned, and you still get hit and downed on the opposite side of the pallet even though they were stunned. I think it’s latency issues, which isn’t anyone’s fault but it doesn’t feel very fair because it’s beyond your control. Clipping through like that I don’t believe is meant to happen. Which is I guess why it threw me off lol. But thanks for your input, means a lot :)
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I only say unfair as of now because I’m not sure what the counter would be? If there is a counter then my answer changes but based on the clip I’m not sure what that Cheryl could have done. Can someone tell me what the correct play here would be?
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@SpitefulHateful said:
People will never get nicer. Humanity hasn't improved at all and is heading towards its self-destruction, so when people are given tools to humiliate their opponents and make them miserable, they will.
Accurate username. Jk jk but in all seriousness this outlook doesn’t sound very healthy. It’s very easy to get stuck in tunnel vision about certain aspects of life. I have no idea what you’ve been through and I won’t pretend to know. But while I didn’t experience the specific pain you’ve endured I’ve experienced pain myself and I know what pain is like. I empathize heavily, and it’s important to remind yourself that there is plenty of good. “If you do it right nobody notices. If you do it wrong nobody forgets.” Good things happen constantly but because they don’t affect us as strongly as negative things we usually don’t notice. We tend to hold onto most of the bad because we don’t want to get hurt again. I’ve been trying to focus on the good just as much as the bad because it is possible, and can really help change a mentality. I’m not sure what’s happened to make you feel such a way as you do, but if you’re ever wanting to talk feel free to DM. I’m sorry you feel this way. I really hope things get better for you.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Killers usually don't have enough breathing room or chill time to notice such things. I see a survivor looping me forever, I just assume he's playing the game, not teaching me anything. In 8/10 matches you lose, there's a tbaggers, so with behavior that common you usually can't give the benefit of playing nice. I don't have the heart to spare survivors, because it was broken long ago. No amount of encouragement or good will is gonna bring that initial joy back. That's just me.
What a disappointing/sad post 😞 I'm sorry your heart was broken. It's easy to let negative experiences dictate how we interact or make us always assume the worst in others, but I do hope that sometime in the future some survivors will come along that can help with that. Not everyone is trying to be mean. Too bad we're not in the same games! I always throw if the killer doesn't have a kill at endgame and tbags only happen I'd say like 3 out of 10 games for my lobbies. I wish for better games for you.
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It’s not specific to one side, you will experience “salt” anywhere. Part of it is just gaming culture, not that I support it. If you really were tunneling then some frustration is to be expected but many times survivors claim tunneling when it really isn’t. I wouldn’t let it bother you. Sometimes people get frustrated. Not long ago I got yelled at in egc because I was using WoO. The killer said that perk is the reason they lost the whole match. So, you know, sometimes it’s best just to not interact.
You never know what someone is going through on the other side of the screen.
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I too, really struggle against spirit. You either have to have specific perks equipped which is of course you'll drive yourself mad if you try and anticipate what killer you will get next, or really expensive headphones. And if you're a tad hard of hearing then you're likely going to die very quickly. Otherwise you kinda just hope for the best. Try not to be predictable but I feel that advice is somewhat insulting because why would someone try to be predictable lol. She's a very difficult killer to face.
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Lightborn is a free perk, it has no restrictions, and it works with blastmine, firecrackers, flashbangs, and flashlights. It's the best counter for sure. Also, when I have it equipped I like to pretend as if the flash just didn't work. Just look up really quick and try and stall, make the survivors think they're messing up with the timing so they will keep trying to flash you all game. It will waste their time 🤭
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803651#Comment_3803651
I’m not holding Survivors to a higher standard, I’m holding them to the same standard that they hold Killers. You see it all over the forums, Reddit and in game- The Killer is bad if they kill Survivors by any means other than getting 12 hooks without tunneling, camping and slugging or using any perks that they don’t like. This seems to be the general consensus for people who main Survivor and never touch the Killer role, so I’m just doing the same. If the Survivors need to escape through hatch after failing to do gens and open the gate, then they’re bad.
My argument had nothing to do with perks or kills. It was mainly about how Killers earned the time that a slug gives them by actually outplaying the Survivors to put them in that situation in the first place. And that when compared to Slugging, the hatch is a hand holding mechanic because it makes it easier for the last Survivor to escape (since they no longer have to do gens, it is an easier alternative).I can concede that a good looper deserves to make it to endgame. I don’t agree that they deserve to escape through the hatch, especially if the Killer decides to be nice and not slug. That’s a mercy from the Killer and not a skill expression from the Survivor.
Edit*
I apologize if I’m coming off a stubborn or obtuse. I do have issues with attention and with articulating my thoughts which is why I don’t participate much in forum debates. I’m not trying to be difficult.
No need to apologize, we're just two people having a conversation even if our opinions don't align. I don't think any less of you as a person regardless what your stance is, and I wouldn't say you're being difficult you're just expressing your opinion. I appreciate this conversation and want to clarify that none of my points are meant to be personal or disrespectful. I’m passionate about the game, so if I sound intense at times, please know it's just my love for discussion, not a reflection of how I feel about you as a person. It's never that deep lol.
To break it down point by point:
"I’m holding Survivors to the same standard they hold Killers."I disagree because you're expecting survivors to meet multiple objectives (completing gens, being a good teammate, and escaping with doors) while holding killers to a simpler standard of getting kills, no matter how they achieve them. Survivors can play skillfully (looping, evading) but you suggest they’ve "failed" if they don’t finish gens. Meanwhile, killers can use less skillful tactics (like tunneling or camping) to get kills regardless of gens progress wether they've popped or not, and still be considered successful. This feels like an imbalance in expectations and standards.
"Killers are bad if they tunnel, camp, slug, or use certain perks."This is a generalization, but I understand why you bring it up. Many players (myself included) dislike these tactics because they remove a lot of the skill expression and counterplay the game offers. It’s similar to how killers dislike perks like old MFT or Distortion—because they can shut down entire strategies with minimal effort. The frustration comes from the fact that these tactics require little effort to perform, but much more effort to counter. In addition to counter you must get perks that are not free, that will take up perk slot space when the killer can do these things without perks, and have an additional build. And the counter perk themselves have restrictions.
For example, OTR gives you protection from being tunneled but for a limited amount of time, and you are restricted from making any kind of progress in the game, and it disables in endgame. Imagine if Lightborn had these kind of restrictions or disabled at end game? Lightborn is important, killers need an optional perk to counter flashlights, flash bangs etc because getting a down is pressure, and that doesn't change for either side. But if Lightborn wasn't a free perk, and it only worked for "x" amount of time after picking a survior up, and it disabled in end game, I can understand why people would feel frustrated with that. And this can only happen because survivors brought flashlights. If we're using the tunneling example, then the surviors could blind you without even needing the item, because they could do it baseline. But in order to counter something they can do without a perk, you would still need a perk, and the counter comes along with all those restrictions. To question why players are frustrated or complain about this feels very obvious.
"If Survivors need to escape through hatch, they’re bad."This simplifies the survivor experience unfairly. The hatch isn’t a sign of failure; it’s a secondary win condition for survivors who outlast their team. Expecting a lone survivor to complete multiple gens in a 1v1 is unrealistic and unreasonable. No survivor can out-gen a killer solo. Hatch is a balance mechanic that gives the last survivor a chance to escape, just like how killers can shift their tactics based on game progress.
"Killers earn the time from slugging by outplaying survivors."I didn’t argue against slugging, but rather pointed out that the hatch isn’t a "hand-holding" mechanic. Just as killers earn their advantages by applying pressure, survivors who reach the hatch have earned their opportunity by surviving that long. Slugging for pressure is valid, but survivors outlasting their team to reach the hatch should be recognized as well. But I wasn't the person who commented on Slugging, that was someone else.
"The hatch makes it easier for survivors because they no longer need to do gens."The hatch isn’t a hand-hold, it’s a balancing tool. A 1v1 against a killer always in favor of the killer, and the hatch gives that lone survivor interaction with the game to reach the end state. It’s not a guarantee of escape, it’s a last chance, just like how endgame perks give killers a last chance when gens are finished. To take away one without the other is unreasonable.
"Good loopers deserve endgame but not the hatch."If a survivor has outlasted their team, have not been killed by the killer and made it to the endgame, they’ve earned the chance to escape through the hatch. It’s not a free win. It’s the game’s way of making it possible to progress in the game because the objectives created were not designed to be possible to complete for 1 person. Dismissing the hatch escape disregards the effort required to reach that point.
To clarify, I’m not arguing that killers shouldn't have a chance 4k. My stance is the last survivor also deserves a chance to escape via the hatch because outlasting an entire team and evading getting killed by the killer until endgame isn’t a sign of failure. If killers can still win regardless of whether gens are popped, a single survivor should have a chance to win regardless of gens too.
To argue against this seems like a double standard, where one sides objectives are downplayed while the others are inflated. If the game were balanced for one survivor to complete all gens and open the gates solo, there would never have been a need for four to begin with. But it is not possible because killer will always rightfully be dominant in a 1v1. Survivors do not win or lose as a team—they win or lose individually. Punishing a lone survivor for the failures of others is unfair. I believe both sides should have a fair chance to adapt and win, which is why the hatch mechanic is a way to balance things out. It’s not even guaranteed every time. If the last survivor always automatically escaped, I’d understand the frustration or the feeling of being robbed. But that’s not the case.
Expecting one survivor to complete a game designed for four, without holding the killer to a similar standard, feels like saying, "If I got a 3k, I should automatically get a 4k," which comes off as more entitled than anything else. If the rule were that if three survivors escaped, the last one automatically did too, that would be equally ridiculous.
The killer deserves a chance to secure their final/possibly only kill at endgame, just as the last survivor deserves a chance to escape.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803509#Comment_3803509
Survivors don’t have to consistently loop and play well to make it to endgame. They can just hide while watching their teammates die, which isn’t very skillful and I say this as someone who prefers stealth. Yes, Survivors who out-looped, out-mindgamed and made themselves at unattractive as possible to chase are skilled, but being a Survivor isn’t all about the chase. Sure, it’s the most fun aspect for a lot of people but it’s not the only thing that makes a Survivor good and deserving of an escape. Being a good teammate and helping your teammates live by body blocking, flashlight saving and knowing when to finish a gen or unhook a teammate is also part of being a good Survivor. Why do you think that good loopers deserve the added bonus of the hatch during endgame when the Killer outplayed their team as a whole?
There is no hypocrisy because Killers have to outplay their opponents and the game doesn’t change or do anything different at its core when they fail, whereas Survivors get the option for the hatch to spawn regardless of them being deserving of it or not. Or are you saying it’s okay to give the Killers something else to worry about when they’ve performed well during the trial just because a Survivor succeeded at only a part of the game?
As for endgame perks being hand holders, I’m not arguing against that. Perks in general are handholding both roles in areas that their user wants to be he supported in. As for endgame strategies, if Survivors lose because of them, then that’s on them because they failed to notice how the Killer is playing and take note of what perks they may be using during the trial and expect something to happen during endgame. Just like Killers need to account for Survivors coming into a match with a gen rush build, sabo build, Bully Squad Head-on & No Mither Build, stealth build or whatever else they want, Survivors need to expect that the Killer may be playing for an endgame build.
First, you argued that survivors don’t deserve the hatch because they didn’t complete gens. I highlighted the double standard since killers can still win without stopping gens, as long as they get kills. Then you said a lone survivor shouldn't get hatch because they failed. I pointed out that surviving to endgame often results from skillful looping and outlasting not from being a failure.
You then suggested that good looping doesn’t equate to being a good teammate, but keeping the killer occupied is one of, if not the most valuable contribution a survivor can make. It helps the team immensely.
You questioned why good loopers deserve hatch when the killer outplayed the team. Survivors win and lose individually, so hatch balances individual performance, not team performance. Just because the killer "outplayed" the team as a whole doesn’t mean they "outplayed" every survivor.
It feels like you're holding survivors to a higher standard, expecting survivors to excel in every aspect (looping, teamwork, gens), but killers only need to achieve one goal (killing), regardless of how it’s done. You claim not every survivor makes it to end game based on skillful plays, but not ever kill a killer gets is skillfull either. Does that mean that it shouldn't count because it wasn't skillful? (though personally I argue that most people that make it to the end game get there because of skill. I don't like using a minority as a represntation for the same reason nurse shouldnt be a benchmark for balance).
The hatch doesn’t make escaping easy; it provides an opportunity based on endurance. It is not a guarantee. In a 1v1 situation, a killer will always win, so the hatch is the only counter the lone survivor has.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803351#Comment_3803351
My argument is the Killers deserve their kills because they outplayed the Survivors that they killed whereas a Survivor who escapes through hatch got it because they were lucky to find it first. Isn’t this why the devs don’t have hatch escapes count towards increasing their MMR? It’s not a win, it’s just a means to keep the game going and not have the Survivor give up. In other words, it’s holding the hand of the last Survivor in order to keep them motivated.
I’m not trying to argue on what constitutes as wins or losses are. We went off on a tangent. I’m arguing that the game is not handholding Killers when they slug because they earned the slug by chasing and downing the Survivor and are still at risk of losing the slug to bleed out (thus losing points) or due to them being equipped with counter perks.
The argument that a survivor who reaches the endgame is still a failure because gens weren’t completed completely dismisses survivor skill. You’re suggesting killers deserve their kills because they outplayed survivors, but when a survivor makes it to the endgame, they didn’t outplay the killer—they just got lucky with hatch.
This view doesn’t hold up because to survive, a player has to consistently loop, outsmart the killer in mind games, and evade capture—this is the core of survivor skill. The survivors who make it to the endgame or hatch aren’t lucky, they’re the ones who successfully outlast others who couldn’t.
The hypocrisy here is clear: killers are considered successful if they kill, regardless of whether gens were done, but a survivor who survives via hatch is considered undeserving because they didn’t complete the gens. If hatch is "handholding" then by that logic, endgame perks or tactics that activate after gens are completed should also be considered "handholding" because they compensate for the killer's failure to stop gens from being done.
(Also, just to clarify, I’m not discussing slugging. that was another point brought up by someone else. My focus here is solely on the claim that hatch is a ‘handholding’ mechanic.)
To downplay a survivor’s achievement in making it to hatch is to ignore the skill that got them there in the first place.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803250#Comment_3803250
Outlasting the Killer and being unattractive to chase is only one part of the game. You still have to complete objectives in order to succeed. Youre still a part of a team whether we like it or not. It’s just part of the risk of playing as Survivor. Surviving as the final Survivor still means you failed at everything else and are still getting an extra chance at failing.
Killer tactics and playstyles will always seem unbalanced since they’re the power role and as such need to be stronger in the 1vs1 and have their skill floor lower since they’re dealing with 4 people. If people want to higher the skill floor then Survivors will have to be nerfed somehow, but no one wants to talk about that.
You don’t need to buy special perks or play perkless. You can play just fine with the perks you get with the base game or earn with Shards. Now that you have BT as base-kit, an anti-face camp mechanic, and hook grabs are a thing of the past, there’s not much holding back solo-queue other then them not wanting to improve. This isn’t to say they don’t need some love such as a chat wheel, better matchmaking that queues serial DCers/hook suiciders at 5 gens in their own pool, but at some point Solo Queue players need to put in some effort at improving.
Okay, let’s break this down then. It sounds like your position is that survivors fail if they do not complete 2 objectives. A) To survive and B) complete the gens. Now following this logic, the killer also has 2 similar objectives. A) To kill the survivors and B) to stop gens from completing
If your argument is that the survivor does not deserve to survive unless they complete all the gens regardless of team status, and open the gate regardless if they are alone, but killers are deserving of a win regardless of gen status, and only if they kill, that’s an example of the double standard you mentioned disliking. It’s hypocritical to say that the survivor doesn’t deserve the hatch just because they didn’t complete all the gens, while at the same time claiming that killers don’t need to stop gens as long as they get kills. If the survivor surviving without finishing the gens is seen as ‘undeserved,’ then by the same logic, a killer failing to defend gens but still securing kills should also be viewed as ‘undeserved.’ This creates a double standard where survivors are expected to achieve both objectives (gens and survival) to win, but killers are only expected to complete one (killing), even if they fail the other. I don’t agree with either being true, which is why hatch being a “Hand holding mechanic” is not accurate. But I’m explaining the hypocrisy following your logic.
When discussing killer tactics, I prefer using specific examples due to their complexity. If you feel that base kit BT and anti-face camping measures have solved issues like tunneling and proxy camping, you’re entitled to that opinion. However, I disagree. I believe those tactics are still very strong, and the existence of perks designed to counter them suggests that they remain difficult to overcome. But again, that’s a different discussion.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803108#Comment_3803108
It is a handholding mechanic. While I agree it’s necessary in order to give the final Survivor a goal in order to keep going, it still rewards them for failing.
My issue isn’t the hatch. My issue is the double standard that people who only play one side of the game have when it comes to their opponents. It’s wrong for Killers to want a 4k and use legit game play strategies that have been sanctioned by the developers over and over but it’s okay for themselves to use whatever strategies they want, regardless of how their opponents feel while saying “we’re just playing the game”.If that one survivor outlasted all the others then they didn’t fail. They don’t deserve to die because their teammates did. If that survivor manages to loop the killer all game so the killer gives up on chases with them to go for the other teammates who may be weaker, how did that survivor fail? Hatch is not a reward for failing its a reward for surviving and outlasting.
Yes, there are plenty of double standards all over the game with both “sides.” People complain about certain tactics and playstyles because the imbalance of skill it creates. For example- tunneling. It is much easier to tunnel than it is to survive tunneling, which is why it is so strong. People complain because it doesn’t feel deserved when one “side” has to work much harder to counter something that isn’t as difficult on the other “side.” Like old MFT or flash bangs etc. Not to mention the counter to many tactics are perk dependent on paid characters while the tactics can be done perkless, but that’s a different discussion.
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@Huge_Bush said:
Just like how Survivors can choose to play stealthy, sabotage hooks, loop strong structures like Shack or the house on Garden of Joy, or have three people to run in during EGC to save their hooked buddy and body block the Killer from downing them again, Slugging is just the same.
It’s fun for the Survivor to have a hatch because it’s just another hand holding mechanic for them when they failed to complete all of their objectives-waste the Killers time long enough to do gens and open the gates. It’s not fun for Killers to have played well throughout the entire match only for the last Survivor to get hatch and escape after failing to complete their objectives.
The hatch is not a hand holding mechanic. The hatch has to exist in the same way killers anti camp and all anti tunneling perks disable in endgame. What is the killer supposed to do aside from camp a hook to try and secure a kill? They don’t need to patrol gens anymore so why leave the hook? And in the same way, what is the last survivor supposed to do? You expect them to do all remaining gens and chase at the same time? Hatch needs to exist because it provides an objective. Unless you consider killers being able to secure a kill at end game as also being a hand hold mechanic. There are plenty of end game perks that only work after all the gens have popped.
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@Xernoton said:
The problem with a 50% kill rate is that we had this before and it didn't work very well. Yes, playing survivor overall felt better but playing killer felt a lot worse. There was a point in time when queue times as a survivor would easily exceed the 10 minutes mark. That is too long.
So they would need to find a way to keep the killer role overall enjoyable while lowering the kill rates. You don't achieve that by simply buffing solo queue. There would need to be a lot of small quality of life improvements for killers. Otherwise you just go back to the way it was before. That's not an easy task and it would probably result in a very different game from what we have now.
Right now, BHVR try to keep killer the power role and bring enjoyment through that while at the same time fixing quality of life issues for survivors. It's not perfect but it works somewhat better than before.
To be honest, I don't even know where they could start if they wanted to bring the kill rates down a little without messing up the queue times again. Killer is simply the more stressful role (not saying it's necessarily harder, that's an entirely different argument), so achieving that balance where you would ideally have close to a 4:1 ratio is pretty hard.
I believe killers should maintain the power role, but adjustments to how kills are achieved could make the high kill rate feel less frustrating for survivors. While everyone has personal opinions on fairness, most agree that certain tactics like tunneling, slugging, and proxy camping- can feel miserable and even helpless to face, especially when they’re used by specific killers. These strategies often lead to quick, unchallenged kills, and while there are perks survivors can bring to counter them, killers have access to these tactics baseline. (which I feel is quite slanted especially when you consider most of these counters are on paid characters)
BHVR has taken steps to discourage some of these playstyles, but they remain common because they’re still the most efficient ways to win. It’s not just on players choosing these tactics, but on the devs for allowing them to be so effective. If these strategies were made less rewarding, so they were no longer the optimal way to win, I think survivors would be more accepting of higher kill rates.
This is just my personal opinion, but from what I’ve observed in forums and player spaces, the frustration seems to come more from dying to these particular tactics than from dying in general. These strategies make it much harder for survivors and much easier for killers, which creates an imbalance. While this could mean a nerf for some killers who rely on these tactics, I’d gladly trade buffing all killers or killer perks across the board (aside from Nurse, maybe?) in exchange for healthier gameplay overall.
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@brewingtea said:
I'm with you, but "reducing the killrate" to 50% isn't the answer because Killers aren't the problem.
The problem is SWFs. Don't punish the wrong players.
SWF teams only win about 3% more than solo players, and even at high MMR where we’re talking the top 5% of players- they only win 8% more than solo. Even the best players still escape less than half the time. Personally, I believe the killer should remain the power role in the game, but there are ways to maintain decent kill rates while making the survivor role feel less helpless. Not that I think balance should be considered "punishing" anyone, as we should all want the game to be balanced/fair for all players.
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🥀🥀 Rest now. Rise later.
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799874#Comment_3799874
Survivors don't need to use braincells to know where Pallets are and with this perk the distance between the Pallets is more clear for Survivors and carry them chaining the loops.
Killers don’t need to “use brain cells” to know where gens are because the aura is always revealed. Or the exit gates. Or whenever someone is unhooked revealing 2 survivors locations. It’s just information. WoO is information just like all the aforementioned things I stated that don’t even require perk slots. Having information doesn’t make you a better player, your skills with what you do with that information do. (I don’t enjoy the “no brain cells” as it’s needlessly insulting but I’m just quoting your own words even if I don’t agree with them)
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The argument that WoO should be nerfed because it shows auras without effort is difficult to agree with. WoO highlights resources, which helps survivors plan loops, but it’s a perk on a non-free character. Killers, on the other hand, can see all gen auras at any time without a perk, which helps them decide what to defend. Killers also get sound and visual cues when there's an unhook, instantly revealing two survivors' locations—one already injured—again, without a perk. Regardless what is free and what is perk required -both sides get helpful info - It’s what you do with that info that actually matters.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799694#Comment_3799694
God I hate the live service excuse...I firmly believe that live service games have ruined games and the gaming industry. Gamers are so willing to take whatever ######### the devs give them nowadays. I may sound old but I ######### miss the 360 and PS2 days
Hey, I understand. I miss playing my PS2 every morning (big spyro fan, i played all the games but riptos rage was my absolute fav) But live service games is not an excuse it's just the reality. An excuse implies shifting responsibility/blame, and an online service game making changes is kind of the entire point, it's meant to constantly evolve. Luckily there are still plently of games that aren't live service, but different types of games require different expectations. But that's also while many games like this are either free or they are significantly cheaper than typical full $60 - $80 games that aren't live service. Cause you're either paying for a full story or an evolving one.
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The changes made to her were undeniably harsh, and it seems the devs deliberately went overboard to discourage people from playing her. That being said, I don’t agree with those who believe she didn’t need changes at all. When a large majority of players agree on something, it doesn’t make sense to ignore them in favor of a small minority. Ultimately, both sides want the same thing—to have fun. Those who loved the character were already having fun and didn’t care that others weren’t. Those who hated her couldn’t enjoy the game and didn’t care that some players liked her. But those who disliked her far outnumbered those who didn’t, and I don’t understand how anyone could argue that this majority opinion should be ignored.
At the end of the day it’s a live service game and everyone should understand that everything is subject to change. You don’t buy the game and own it, you buy it to play what someone else owns and they’re completely within their right to make changes on any part of the game.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799146#Comment_3799146
No problem, it was an honest mistake and an easy one to make when multiple people with the same avatar post in a thread. If it's not too much trouble, I would very much appreciate it if you edited the original post to clarify the mistake so as to avoid possible future misunderstandings. 😀
Absolutely. I just edited it, let me know if it's alright. Also, If it would be best I can delete my comment altogether, just let me know. Again, really sorry.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799133#Comment_3799133
in my mother tongue the word we use for “rat” means something despicable and wretched. It is like a vermin, something you wish to destroy. It is not something you use to describe a person or group of people unless you mean them great harm, like a slur. I see more people here using this word lately to describe immersed or stealthy survivors. Why I see this more now?
I've noticed this more often as well. People are quick to insult others, and if slurs weren't regulated, I'm sure they'd be thrown around too. I believe this stems from an issue with player mentality, specifically the mindset of, "It's not my responsibility to make sure you have fun." This attitude promotes a selfish and unempathetic perspective that makes people ignorant of others experiences. When someone is focused solely on their own way of playing, refusing to compromise or dismissing alternative viewpoints, it’s no surprise they don’t see the harm in insulting others. These same people often say things like, "You wouldn't survive in X lobby" or "It's just a video game/it's just words," which is just another way to be dismissive of the impact their actions have on others experiences. It's unfortunate but it's quite popular to be selfish these days.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799133#Comment_3799133
I have not, as far as I remember, compared a playstyle to "rats." I use phrases like "unhealthy for gameplay" to avoid being insulting and to keep my criticism constructive. Sometimes I'm a bit heated on the forums despite trying not to be, but I try to stay mindful and course correct when that happens.
Make sure to double check the username when referring to a previous post that you don't directly quote. It's easy to get mixed up when multiple people have the same avatar.
You're 100% correct, sorry about that. I did see the Kate avatar and I thought it was the same person. My sincere apologies.
!!! IMPORTANT EDIT: I replied to this comment thinking TragicSolitude was the Original Poster, this reply was mistakenly directed at them. They do not endorse the behavior I wrongly accused them of. It was my mistake.