hermitkermit
hermitkermit
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799106#Comment_3799106
People do this at 4v1.
And I outright said the devs need to fix their game. They designed a team game that needs 4 survivors working decently well together for it to be a fun experience. One survivor choosing not to ruins it for the other three. That BHVR said "play as a lone wolf" in their game description doesn't mean it's healthy for the game, it means BHVR designed it wrong if they want lone wolfing to be an option that doesn't make the majority of solo queue miserable.
Your ire isn’t with the other consumers/survivors who don’t owe you a damn thing.
I never said they owned me anything. I said that someone throwing the match from the beginning ruins it for at least three other players. It's not healthy for the game. I've never played any other game where doing literally nothing was considered a fun or viable or even acceptable playstyle. BHVR needs to decide if they want a 4v1 game or a 1v1v1v1v1 game and design it accordingly, because the state it's in right now doesn't function.
I don't berate players for how they play. You're making it sound like I throw dishes at the players' heads and demand they play the way I want, but that's not the case. I come on the forums and say BHVR needs to fix this problem. BHVR has made a change to Distortion. Hopefully it's a step in the right direction and they take more steps in the future.
I believe I see what you’re saying, and I get where you’re coming from, but calling players who use Distortion “rats” does give the impression that you are berating people for how they play. Calling a group of people rats does make your post seem a bit more hostile than you may have intended.!!! IMPORTANT EDIT: I replied to this comment thinking TragicSolitude was the Original Poster, this reply was mistakenly directed at them. They do not endorse the behavior I wrongly accused them of. It was my mistake.
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You're completely missing the point of why changes were made. The complains weren't about making killer unfun it was about addressing imbalances that made the game very one-sided. If something is consistently unfair or frustrating for the majority of players, it makes sense for the developers to step in and adjust it. These changes are meant to ensure that both roles are challenging and enjoyable, rather than allowing one side to dominate. Balance changes are about making the game fun and fair for everyone, not just catering to one side's preferences.
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I keep getting camping bubbas in lights out. I got 1 Myers but he was really fun. Still, it’s much much better than the last lights out event.
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I think the nerfs were pretty extreme, but I can understand why they happened. It's always tough when a character you love gets changed, especially for those who are really attached to them. However, BHVR is a business, and if a significant majority of players are unhappy with a character, it's important for them to take that seriously. Everyone has different opinions on what’s difficult to counter or what’s OP but when a large group of players agrees on something, it doesn’t make sense to ignore it in favor of a small minority. Just like we don't balance the game around SWF or Nurse because they represent a minority of players, the same principle applies here. Most players found this character's playstyles and counters very unforgiving and/or frustrating. While the majority isn’t always right, dismissing their concerns as invalid or insulting them for feeling that way comes across as out of touch and a bit arrogant, like saying, "I don't care what everyone else thinks; I'm right, and they're wrong."
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I agree. Map offerings feel very outdated, and the game is too big with so many perks, killers, and different kinds of maps that we don't need offerings anymore. I feel people only use them to grief or take advantage on either side. But yeah, an update would be appreciated. I like the idea others have said about the map offerings being used to lower the chances of getting sent there. That would be handy with ghostie on eyrie lol
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The state of survivor is where the Devs want it, which does mean that they are currently losing more than they are winning. You're not crazy, it is harder, it is supposed to be. Every form of evidence we have shows this. Unforunately I don't see this "improving" because this is the the game the Devs want. Killers are the selling point so they want them in the power role. If you're wanting to win a bit more, I suggest playing more killer. Survivor is challenging, but it can be satisfying because of it.
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I’ve never understood this as an issue. “It’s not skillful for survivors to run to yellow” could I not just say “it’s not skillful for killers to follow/run to red”.
Windows provides information about resources. That’s it. The same way that killers being able to see scratch marks, blood pools and all auras of the gens is information about their kind of resources. And as killer you don’t even need a perk to see those thIngs. Windows doesn’t make you a better looper just like seeing the aura of gens doesn’t make you a better gen defender. The success of those perks is reliant on skill.There’s always Zanshin Tactics as well, if you want similar information windows provides.
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@[Deleted User] said:
DbD has a deeply insecure playerbase. It's inconceivable to players that they're average or not good, or had a bad game. If you give players no feedback about where their skill level is, they're going to make something up and move the goal posts whenever they need to.
What did many players do when BHVR released kill rates showing SWF in the top MMR bracket still escapes less than 50% of the time? They said the data was wrong, made up a reason why the data couldn't be valid, or assumed they must be in some unaccounted for Ultron MMR bracket on a hidden server.
What upsets me the most is the selective acknowledgment of stats and evidence. We all have biases, and that’s okay as long as we're respectful and open to hearing the other side. But it’s hard to ignore a bias if the opposing stance consistently picks and chooses which data to accept. For example, rejecting stats showing how often SWFs win but will gladly accept stats showing frequent perk usage if it aligns with certain views. Dismissing claims of frequent tunneling or slugging as exaggerated without proof but then argue their matches are all Top MMR and filled with 4-man SWFs, also without proof. This selective acceptance makes it hard to have a balanced discussion because it feels like evidence is being cherry-picked to fit a narrative, which undermines a fair analysis of the game.
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I commented something very similar on another post but, I remain consistent.
From what I've seen in forums and discussions, many killer mains believe that the issue is that killers aren't good but that survivors are just bad. I don't agree with this perspective, especially when all available statistics show that killers are performing well, regardless of where they rank on fan-made tier lists or if they're primarily M1 killers. The majority of survivors are statistically losing more than they're winning, and dismissing low escape rates as simply due to most survivors being "bad" overlooks the fact that the survivor role is intentionally challenging. It's like criticizing someone for dying in Dark Souls or Elden Ring—it misses the point of the challenge.
Another common belief is that because SWF exists, the game will always be survivor-sided. But the same argument could be made about Nurse. Using a small minority of the game, like SWF, to justify or demand changes is flawed for the same reason it would be wrong to use Nurse as a benchmark for balance. Both can create unfair situations, but they represent a minority of the player base.
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@Ginnypig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793708#Comment_3793708
You have no idea how broken swf is.
The stats do quite literally show that in a 4 man SWF the escape rate is only 8% higher than Solo, and that is with the top 5% of players, which is a very small portion of the game. Most SWF are duos, and their escape rate is about the same as Solo, 40% - 43%. Using a small minority of the game, like SWF, to justify or demand changes is flawed for the same reason it would be wrong to use Nurse as an example. Both can create unfair situations, but both represent a minority of the player base. But even so, the top SWF players don't even win 50% of the time.
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I don't think killer mains 'hate' survivors, but many are definitely frustrated, and as you've probably noticed in your post, sometimes to the point of just throwing out personal insults. While game stats show killers are in a strong position, many killer mains reject these stats, arguing that killers are still weak and need buffs. I struggle with this because while stats aren't everything, completely dismissing them makes it impossible to justify any changes.
I don't agree with this, but a common belief is that Killers are not good, but that all survivors are just bad.
As a solo main, it's clear that expecting four strangers to play flawlessly doesn't happen, and it isn't realistic, nor do I think they should be required to play without making a single mistake or to only be able to survive if they've dedicated thousands of hours, or money for certain perks to counter playstyles that are not dependent upon perks. But that's less of a DBD problem and more of a typical "Pay to Win" problem in many games these days. Regardless, dismissing balance issues as purely a 'skill' problem oversimplifies the game's complexity. SWF is often used as a defense for certain demands, but just like using Nurse to justify changes, it's not fair to base decisions on the extremes of the player base. The game should consider the majority, not just the exceptions.
To put it simply, I don’t think killer mains or the Devs hate survivors. Killer is the selling point of the game, and it's designed for killers to be in the power role. Perfect balance would undermine the horror aspect, so survivors need to accept that they’ll lose more often. If they don't like it, they can play a different game or switch to killer, it's not meant to be "fair" in a traditional game sense. On the flip side, killers need to accept that they hold the stronger role and aren't as oppressed as they might feel.
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I've tried getting it to work since the day of the castlevania launch. Unfortunately there's radio silence on my support ticket, social media reach outs, and from many other posts on the forums. This is the first time I've seen a dev comment so that's nice at least, because it was really starting to feel like people just didn't care that you literally can't play, as there was no acknowledgment of the issue or any possible solutions provided. I've tried for days. My friend also can't play the game either. EAC won't open no matter what I do, wether I go in manually through browsing local files or not. Feels bad not to be able to play a game you dedicated alot of time and money into, that's for sure. I'm one of those dbd goblins that plays every day, so not being able to for almost a week and not having any indication that there's a solution being worked on really leaves a bitter taste.
Here's hoping we get to load up the game soon 🤞
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Personally I think having the option to test killers and builds out on bots before going in a live game is really great. I think it’s exactly what someone would need with trying out a new killer. I also think if survivors had some way to practice against killer bots it would be much healthier as well, because currently there are none so you have to learn how to play against them whenever you happens to face them by chance which lead to a very, very long learning curve that results in multiple people not knowing what to do and dying really fast.
Use the bots, that’s what they’re there for. And if you come back from a long break, understand you may be a little rusty and allow yourself some time to get back in the swing of things.
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- -Search for safety in confined spaces and figure out how to send my ex-boss into the fog
- - BOO! ITS BING BONG BELL BOY! DING DING DING!
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I also don't like map offerings, as I agree that they're usually used to tip the scales into one side vs the other. Though in my experience I've had it both ways, not just survivors but also with killers too. I like the idea of some maps naturally being more killer sided, some maps naturally being more survivor sided and majoirty of maps being as close to equal as possible. Map balance is certainly tricky because depnding on maps certain perks/killer powers can be either useless or almost uncounterable. It would be nice for map offerings to be used to lower the chances instead of increase them. Maybe during the next Q&A we can bring it up the possibility of map offering updates to the roadmap.
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I have had this issue since yesterday. Apparently it's alot of people. So far, nothing has worked, even with a suggestion by xbox. This reddit post worked for some, it hasn't for me but fingers crossed for you guys.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1f2od6x/eac_doesnt_let_me_launch_my_game/
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788160#Comment_3788160
A fresh install might fix this if repairing didn't. Entity Speed, bro!
I tried it :( unfortunately it didn’t work. I’m really so devastated.
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Commenting for boosting activity. I am not a nurse main at all but I am so very sorry that you’re experiencing this :(. I would love in lieu of a new content chapter some kind of Health update chapter that is solely focused on fixing bugs like these. No buffs, no perks, no new killer, no new survivor just repair work lol.
I hope these issues will be resolved soon for you. It suck’s not being able to play a favorite character. I myself can’t even load into the game right now as I keep encountering a launch error after the update that has never happened to me before.
I wish you luck in the fog and hope this post gains more traction!
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!!!Please, if anyone has any idea could you help me out? Ever since I updated the game yesterday I haven’t been able to play. I get an “EAC is not installed” launch error that I have never gotten before. I’ve never uninstalled it in the first place. I’ve tried verifying/repairing my files, disabling my firewall, my graphics and windows is updated, I’ve restarted the computer multiple times. I asked a question about it in the ask the community tab but nothing, and I sent a support ticket to BHVR but nothing. I was so excited to play and I can’t even load the game anymore. Does anyone have an idea that could help me?
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Going on 1st and DC is typically never the right thing to do, but I do think it’s indicative of a bigger problem with the current state survivor is in right now. Many people are quick to agree that yes, tunneling/camping/slugging isn’t fun, yes the meta is kind of stale and yes, solo is not in a great place right now but it doesn’t matter because X,Y,Z (which the xyz are often issues that killers have faced in the past or are facing now). And while X,Y,Z, (the struggles of killers) are very important and should not be written off, neither should the struggles of survivors.
We can all speculate on balance and what is “fair vs unfair” but at the end of the day it’s a game, and it’s important to consider what that game has to offer both roles. In my opinion that’s been formed from myself and others personal experience, statistics provided by BHVR, posts on the forums and the kind of discussions that happen from those posts— there does not seem to be much of an incentive to play survivor at all right now. It’s simply not as fun.
There are high chances of encountering “unfun/unfair” play styles that are used so frequently and are so impactful that perks were designed specifically to counter them, you run the risk of being much more skilled than the killer but still not surviving, your survival depends on your team but you do not win as a team, there is no comeback mechanic in place, and of course the biggest being you are statistically proven to lose more. etc.
Just like with perks, when playing either role in the game It’s important to consider the value you get out of the energy, time and effort you put in. Right now many survivors feel it’s not worth it. They shouldn’t be playing at all if they’re just going to give up. But I also think it speaks volumes that when a large part of the player base feels that not playing is better than playing, it isn’t seen as a concern—but as an entitlement issue in need of a solution that requires the survivor role to be even more restrictive.
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I think it boils down to wasting as much as the killers time as possible. You don't really have a second to spare right now when it comes to gens, especially with the Pain/Pop combo that's pretty popular. Depending on the situation it can sometimes be beneficial for the killer to hook that person they just hooked instead of hooking another to activate that regression. If the killer doesn't have those perks at all, it still wastes some additional time. I usually don't think it's worth it, because the amount of time it gives you vs. another hook state that makes that person on dead hook which will 8/10 times be the killers #1 target anyway just doesn't feel good for the macro game, imo. But I get why people do it.
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Said this in a previous post about this topic but essentially there is no comeback mechanic in play for survivors right now. Working on the gens gets you killed faster. The killer doesn’t go out of their way to hunt down the one hiding to reward the one working. So survivors at end game really don’t have any incentive of any kind to complete gens because at this point (typically) gens are no longer in a survivors best interest.
When I play I always run right towards the killer hoping to give my teammate a shot at hatch but they usually end up slugging me and using me as bait and let me bleed out.
So the options start looking like
A) Do gens and die
B) Sacrifice yourself to bleed out and die
C) Try and hide for hatch
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If there was a way to load into a match and instantly win, some would really enjoy that. Some people don’t play games to “play” they play to win and they don’t care what winning looks like, regardless if it requires any effort or skill to do so.
And obviously this goes for both “sides”.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766410#Comment_3766410
Having a perk that shows where every available resource is at all times leads to the devs removing resources. Hence, map reworks like Haddonfield with deadzones everywhere. I would prefer maps with more resources but an expectation that survivors need to pay close attention and use actual knowledge and game sense to identify where the resources are. You know, actual skill expression? Rather than "beep boop follow Google Maps to next yellow thing".
Couldn’t we argue the same for seeing all gens on killer side? Except you don’t even need a perk for that. Both provide you important information about limited resources. Being able to see where all the gens are to pick out a 3 gen to defend from the start is the game is a pretty big advantage. And of course makes patrolling much easier. I love being able to zoom from gen to gen with wraith. You could also say being able to see items at the beignning of the match about being able to see more available resources, and you can slap on a franklins or a lightborn to counter them.
I don’t think nerfs should come to anything I’ve mentioned above because I don’t believe anything is “op/broken”. But windows does have a high pick rate so it will likely see some changes just like all the others, which only makes the pool smaller to pick from.
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@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780754#Comment_3780754
That's not exactly true. Perhaps not Tiers like we see in most videos but there are still roughly some Tiers.
D Tier is pointless because any Killer can do some good damage if mastered. But a Master Trapper will never achieve the same results as a Master Blight or Master Nurse. So there are still Tiers, just not as many as people make them out to be.
I get that my view might not be popular, but it's rooted in the stats we've seen, like pick rates versus kill rates. When I say I don't buy into the whole tier system, it's because I think there's a misconception about the killers in those tiers. Just because a killer is labeled as low-tier doesn't automatically mean they're awful. If they have decent kill rates it's always explained away as the killer not being any good but that the majority of the survivor player base are bad, which again I don't agree with. If it was a minority that struggled, sure. But the majority should not be dismissed the way it is. I don't think killers are as weak as people believe, because of the evidence that has been provided.
To clarify, I’m not saying all killers are equally strong, but I do believe they all have the potential to be deadly, even if some require more effort or skill to reach that point. A Master Trapper might not get the same results as a Master Nurse, but a Master Trapper achieves enough results to still be a successful and strong killer in the right hands. Which I think is how it should be. Skill should absolutely play an important factor in any game, in any "side". And right now, every killer has decent kill rates, which is good, but it also shows that they all can be strong. I do think some killers need some buffs and qol changes, but I’m not quick to dismiss their success just because of where they’re placed in a fan-made tier list.
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780754#Comment_3780754
I'm exactly like you, I don't believe in Killer Tierlists. I believe ANY Killer can be very good, or very bad. It depends on the player.
When I say "weak Killers", I mean "Killers that do not have a ton of power in their kit, so winning consistently requires more overall skill and cleverness as well as knowing that Killer REALLY well." Myers is a weak Killer not because he's BAD, but because he requires knowing what does and does not work, being flexible, and all the little ins and outs of what he can and cannot do with various addons. Winning consistently with Myers means you need to put in a lot more effort than the average Killer player to do well.
When I say "strong Killers", I mean "Killers that have lots of stuff in their kit that can be extremely powerful when mastered." Pinhead is a strong Killer not because he's really really good, but because once he is mastered he can create situations that are very difficult for all but an experienced SWF to get out of, and doing so requires significant effort to get to that point consistently. Pinhead already has stuff in his kit that makes him good against the average Survivor, but go a bit further and you become very strong, to the point you can even become highly competitive with him and do well.
When I say "overpowered" or "underpowered", I mean those Killers that either do something that breaks the game, or fundamentally can't keep up with the game in its current state at all. Nurse is an overpowered Killer because for the effort you put in, she is much too strong and her kit is so basic is is really simple to learn, plus being good at her gives more value than the average Killer. She breaks looping, she just breaks looping. That's overpowered. She is in bad need of tweaks to be made more fair, but that doesn't mean she cannot lose. Meanwhile Freddy is an underpowered Killer in that he does many things, but none of them overly well and none of them seem to be as effective - he antiloops poorly, he teleports poorly, he stealths poorly, and he slows down the game poorly. He is in bad need of tweaks to be fully effective, but that doesn't mean he can't win.
If I had to tierlist Killers, I would do them like this, in order (left to right) of most to least need of any changes to make them more balanced:https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5A4RXE833HXS/image.png
Wesker is plagued by glitches and could stand to have some stuff made partial basekit. He needs looking at. Skull Merchant's kit is bloated and needs a change badly. Trickster's changes are not fun for Trickster Main and feel bad for Survivor Mains, he needs to be given another look. I am happy to explain anyone else on this list.
I actually really love your list. I agree with what you mean 100%. It's not that certain killers are strong or weak, it's that they each have varying levels of difficulty to master, but they are all capable of performing well and if they're under that 60% than I'm sure BHVR would step in to get them higher, as shown with the buffs to huntress, billy, singu etc. and some others on the roadmap. But yes, I'm glad you understand my point. It really drives me nuts when people refuse to accept a killer performing well simply because of the tier lists that the players themselves put them in. Same for survivor perks. There are plenty of perks that can be very strong when used correctly, like lithe, object, flashbang etc. And in the same way that a nurse may not be god tier because the person playing them isn't as skilled, powerful perks can be wasted if that survivor doesn't know when to use them.
I agree with your terms of strong and weak, because they are player dependent which is the way I think it should be. I think it's the way any game should be. No item, perk, power, add-on or character should be so strong that your skill doesn't play a factor in your achievements. And of course this goes without saying but that is for both "sides".
But yes, looking over your list I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything. Any changes I would make are just boiled down to personal preference but I am aware that it's just my personal opinion and I would agree that the majority probably do not struggle against them like I do therefore I wouldn't move them on the list because I believe I just need to improve personally (looking at you legion lol).
In any case, it's always such a delight to see your comments as you are always respectful and I appreciate it! :)
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There's really not enough incentive for a survivor to try to finish gens in this end game scenario because there is lack of a comeback mechanic. Take a standoff between a Myers and a survivor hiding in a locker—who’s really in the wrong? Is the killer wrong for not letting the survivor go, or is the survivor wrong for not just giving up? The answer to that question says a lot about that individual and the bias they may have. Personally, I don’t think either side is wrong. Both are just trying to win the only way they can, and in this situation, I don’t see it as toxic. Both are being stubborn but the game will eventually end through a time-out, just like hiding out the game will eventally end through time-out.
When a survivor in the endgame decides to work on gens, they usually just get caught and killed. The killer is not going to reward them for not hiding. The same goes for a survivor who sacrifices themselves so another can get the hatch—I do this almost every game, and most of the time, I just get slugged and bled out while they hunt for the other survivor until they get found and killed too.
So, what’s really the “right thing to do” here? It depends on who you ask, but if we’re saying the “right thing” is to keep working on gens, even if it lessens your chance of survival, I think that's a slippery slope. Killers often use strategies like tunneling, proxy camping, or slugging because they’re the most efficient ways to secure kills, and survivors are expected to either A) use perks, or B) gg go next. Killers are allowed to play in ways that make the game less fun for survivors because it’s the most effective strategy, so survivors should be allowed to do the same. And working on gens in this end game scenario is typically not the best way to survive.
I'm not sure what exactly the best solution to this would be, I'm not a fan of the way it currently is eitehr, and I do welcome some kind of a change but being penalized for trying to stay alive does not feel like the right way to do it.
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I love little info graphics like these. Personally I am one of the few that don’t really believe in “killer tiers”. As I believe that any killer has the potential to be very deadly if enough time is dedicated to them. And statistics support this belief which is part of the reason I have it. I don’t believe BHVR comes out with any killer and tries to make them “b tier or d tier etc.” I think different killers are good at different things and those things can be specific to individual player play styles/preferences. All that to say that this makes me smile for the trapper. <3 sorry he got some DCs though. Keep trapping on
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
Killers are getting much needed changes to QoL or much needed buffs. I think the Survivor community is having trouble adapting. I think a lot of Survivors also got very complacent. Some began at a point where there really wasn't as much threat to Survivor so they never had to adapt. Now they have to.
It's going to take time. It may take years. It took Killers years to adapt to how Survivor-sided the game was, and now that it's properly a bit more Killer sided (in order to make it truly SURVIVAL Horror as intended) some Survivor players do not like it. Fact is… Survivors aren't intended to all escape easily OR be able to not be challenged. Survivor is supposed to be much harder. And some people don't like that, I think."Yes, it hurts. Growth often does." - The Singularity
I absolutely agree with this sentiment, in fact I said something similar in my post about survivors having trouble adapting. I think a possible issue is that it is not blatantly stated that the game is not meant to be “balanced” in the typical sense. Killer should be stronger. And by the evidence we have they currently are.
IMO There is an entitlement on both sides.
Survivor entitlement when players think the game should be like it used to be, where survivors had more power, and they get upset and DC when things don’t go their way. They refuse to accept that the game wasn’t meant to stay that way.Killer entitlement when players ignore the power they already have and keep asking for more, even when the evidence shows they don’t need it. They tend to reject anything (like stats) that go against their own experience or opinions.
I think the game is better than it was, but of course there’s room for improvement and I’m sure we all have opinions on what that improvement should be, but I agree with the essence of your post.
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I believe majority of the survivor players are having trouble with adapting. Killers are in a very strong spot right now which is where the devs want them to be, but at one point something can become too strong. If you buff one side too much then the other side has no incentive to play. I’ve read a few comments from people that used to play Death Garden, another BHVR game that apparently stopped being played because they overturned one side over the other. It became much too difficult to survive and so they just stopped playing all together.
I’m not going to say killers are too strong right now because it simply depends on what the devs want in a game/playerbase. What I can say is that I have around 2,000 hours and when I play solo q I will win 1 game in maybe 12. And frankly, I can understand why people wouldn’t want to play a game in which you are expected and designed statistically speaking to lose more often than win unless you have more than a couple thousand hours. I don’t think DC and rage quit are typically ever the right decision, but I do think it’s an indication of the frustration of a massive part of the DBD player base, and it should be a cause for concern.
Thanks for the cool data study! Very interesting.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779017#Comment_3779017
I know why tunneling is not popular and killers do it because it's efficient but what you suggest with hooking same player consecutively resulting in gen speed buff it leaves it open to be exploited by survivors that basically get hooked once then try to get hooked again so the team gets the buff to gen rush before the killer gets a chance to hook someone else. Even if the killer doesn't intentionally tunnel they could be forced into providing the survivors team with a buff they didn't want to do. This is especially true when survivors are the character, it can be difficult to keep track of who's been hooked and who hasn't when there are 4 sables running around. It would just increase slugging tbh which is another thing survivors hate as they express this very clearly when I slug the last 2 to deal with the hatch situation. It is true, people know what the match entails, know the common strats and tactics used so should come prepared to counter them
If a survivor is attempting to exploit it, then you can leave them slugged. That's one less person on a gen and it's going to take another person to come and pick them up which is 2 off a gen. Survivors usernames are displayed to show who you are chasing as well, to manage hooks given. I also don't think it would be difficult to implement a small display alongside an update like this in which it shows how many hooks each survivor has to better keep track of this as well.
Slugging the last 2 survivors is very different than not allowing a survivor to "exploit" the system as you previously mentioned. Slugging someone who goes out of their way to get downed after a hook is different than slugging to prevent someone from progressing the game at all.
Simply put I disagree that this would not be a fair trade off for an effective counter to tunneling as well as rewarding killers for multiple chases.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
Um a lot of survivor's claim the chase is the fun part, looping. It's interesting that they like the chase when they can loop the whole match but if they get caught it's "tunneling" and no longer want to be chased. Out of all the controversial tactics killers use (slugging, camping, tunneling) tunneling is the 1 tactic that gives survivors exactly what they want....the chase. So enjoy the chase and dont get caught.
And Freddy?? Arguably the worst killer in the game? That one playing Freddy must have been a pro because Freddy is awful as an killer, he's useless lol. Survivors have all they need to counter the killers tactics with items and perks. You might not find the game enjoyable anymore but do you think it's fun for killer when survivors are literally doing a scooby doo sketch around a pallet for ages then move to a new one and repeat? It's part of the game, that's why I deliberately go anti loop killers and go into a match prepared to deal with the most common tactic I see.
The chase is the only part of the survivor role that provides skill expression, which is why many including myself feel it is the fun part. But the survivor is not designed to be able to loop a decent enough distance with only 1 health state, which is why there are 2 before they are down. When you are tunneled off hook, you are only left with 1 health state, so the chances of the chase lasting are extremely slim leading to a quick down which is why it is such an effective "playstyle". Killers can choose the hook they put the survivor on as well, it is sometimes dependent upon map rng but it's not difficult to hook a survivor into a dead zone, or a corner of the map where there are no resources to help that survivor after they've been unhooked. For example I've been put on a hook on the hill by a tunneling buba, so, no escape there. And I've been put on a hook in the back of the map in a corner while a huntress stood on a hill nearby and hit those who tried to unhook me and then tunneled.
Tunneling is very easy, and surviving tunneling is not. You can push it on survivors and claim they need to get better, that they should've brought perks to counter something base-game, that they need to just move on to the next. You have every right to feel that way. But Tunneling is not popular because it is an impressive display of skill or because it is risky. It is popular because it is easy, and it is effective. Thus why anti-tunneling perks and measures were put in the game to try and counter it, because it is strong.
Many have their solution to tunneling, and I have my own. Right now killers don't have much of an incentive to spread hooks, and a common issue/complaint in the killer role is gen times. I propose that tunneling reflects the gen effeciency. If a killer hooks a survivor consecutively, then all gens get a repair speed buff, taking less time to complete. When killers hook a different survivor, all gens get a repair speed slowdown that does not count as one of the 7 damages a gen can take (the anti 3-gen system) taking more time to complete. These would stack for both sides. This doesn't take away a killers option to tunnel but it is no longer the most effecient strategy and in turn, every survivor gets a chance to play the game. It provides a built in slow down not reliant on perks, and rewards killers for taking the time to chase multiple survivors.
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I think survivors absolutely need to work as a team to win. You can't win if you don't. You can play perfectly and loop the killer for 12 minutes, but if nobody is doing gens- you're not going to survive. That being said, when 1 survivor wins, not all of them do. So I do understand how it can be a 1 survivor vs the other 3 survivors and a killer. It's not an easy role. But you can't win alone.
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This does feel like a tricky problem. On one hand, playing hide and seek can feel really boring and can be frustrating to deal with and can feel unfair. On the other, survivors currently don’t have much of a comeback system in play at all, so to expect them to be able to complete a game that was designed for 4 with only 2 also feels frustrating and unfair. And more often than not if a killer finds you on a gen in this end game scenario, they will just kill you. They're not going to be looking for your teammate who is hiding out so it’s not as if you get any kind of incentive to try and complete the gens when hiding is rewarded more so than not.
As it stands right now it’s like a lose-lose for everyone. It reminds me of a Michael waiting to insta kill that last survivor who is in a locker. Neither is wrong in my opinion, the one who wants to die vs the one who wants to kill. I believe that it was not considered taking the game hostage as either player has the power to end it, it’s just a matter of stubbornness.
Im not disagreeing that something can be done to improve these end games, but I don’t think it’s wrong for either side to stay in the game.
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The scratchmarks needed to be adjusted. They have been harder to track for a long time now. It's more of a qol update than a buff, but it will help killers track better which will "buff" them so to speak. So I understand your point, but simply put the scratchmarks were never supposed to be as faded and inconsistent as they were, it was a bug. Taking out blights sliding bug was important, even though people considered it a "nerf" as well, but it was a bug that needed fixing. Same thing with the scratch marks.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769623#Comment_3769623
I’ve seen killers tunnel and try to proxy camp. They’re definitely starting to bring that over. I was just tunneled out by a Wraith who had even gone to attack other people then left them to pursue me… across the map. After proxying my cage. Lol
I had a match the other day where a simliar thing happened. Essentially, a nurse hooked me, and as someone went for the unhook, the huntress watched and waited to hit me right after I got unhooked. She then downed me. I got hooked again, teleported in the middle of the map. Huntress went on the hill, and when someone else unhooked me, she went after me again. The unhooker tried to body block but the huntress wouldn't even m1 her. Just threw another hatchet at me again. She saw me getting unhooked the first time, chose to hit me twice. Saw me getting unhooked the second time, and chased me down again.
It took like less than like 4 minutes and I was out of the game. Brutal.
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Personally I've really struggled as survivor in this mode. There's not much room for skill expression of any kind. Looping is the only thing you can do, which is super fun, but when both killers are there which usually they are, obviously you can't loop anymore and that takes away really the only fun part survivors can do in the game mode. Gens and heals don't require skill so it's not very engaging.
On the other hand, I love playing killer in this mode. There's never a dull moment. I've been more successfull with killer than survivor personally, but even in the matches where I wasn't, it feels good to be able to whack anything that moves. I think the reason I prefer this mode more for killer is because skill expression is abundant. Mind games are the same, and I don't have to worry about flashlights or flashbangs. Stomping to an instant hook feels really nice. And so even when I lose in this mode as killer, the game still feels full.
When I play killer, I need to chase to have fun, when I play survivor, I need to loop to have fun. And it's really easy to take away one of those options in this mode. But still, it's nice to have the mode in the game. I got my challenges done and probably won't touch it unless it's with a friend.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768342#Comment_3768342
I do want to agree with your first paragraph. I enjoy a good discussion and so far this has been, even if we disagree. Likewise, I am also not trying to be hostile, though I am admittedly often blunt.
The problem with your approach to perceived flaws in the game is that it's subjective. What you call "exploiting a flaw" someone else might judge to be playing efficiently, within the rules, which is objectively true. This is part of the reason "survivor rule book" is a meme among killer mains, because every survivor has their own set of rules, applied inconsistently, and often applied in ridiculous cases. You're not going to please everyone no matter how you play.
There is also a tragedy of the commons aspect. If I play sub-optimally then I am risking that the opposing team/player may take advantage of that and play in ways that I find unfun and "exploitative." I don't think it's a tenable position to say that people should play according to the subjective perception of their opponent.
The problem is that the rules of the game are what they are, and no amount of wishing will change that. If you want to alter your playstyle to make the game more fun for the other side, then by all means do so, but I vehemently reject the notion that not doing so makes you unempathetic. This is a video game that people play voluntarily.
I don't mind bluntness, and I welcome it! So long as it remains respectful and doesn't resort to blatant hostility or name-calling, as some people on the forums like to do lol.
I did bring up flaws, because in one of your previous messages you even admitted to flaws being present. I think most people regardless of bias or not can and will agree that the game is not perfect and does have flaws. And while those flaws are various and can be different things to different people, the impact of certain strats/playstyles/perk combos etc. on the overall enjoyment of the game is a shared experience, wether you consider them flaws or not. I don't think the issue is about subjective rules but about recognizing and acknowledging when a certain strat consistently creates negative experiences, and when deterents are even put in place to discourage them.
(i'm going to be saying strats for simplicity sake but know that this includes tings like perk combos and "bugs" and tech, infinites etc.)
I know that it's impossible to make everyone happy in the game, and what I refer to are things that BHVR as already addressed.
I understand that many of the most unfun strategies are often the most efficient ways to win. I believe that ensuring a fun experience for everyone should not require players to hold back or restrain themselves from being efficient. It's up to BHVR to ensure the game's balance, and I think they're aware of this and have shown it by nerfing certain playstyles. This suggests these strats were not intended as the primary way to play the game, which is why they feel exploitative when used excessively.
Given these nerfs, accountability and personal choice are involved when players opt to use them. I believe the game allows for these strats to exist because they are meant to be situational, not primary methods of play. When used excessively, they can be devastating to the other side and make the game both unfair/unfun. If these strats were not discouraged in some capacity, they wouldn't have received any nerfs.
So, it depends on your perspective. If you see BHVR's nerfs as addressing imbalances or if the nerfs aim is to improve overall player enjoyment.
If it's due to the imbalance, then the strength of these playstyles has to be considered. If they create a big enough tilt in balance that BHVR sees it necessary to implement nerfs, and people still rely on it for the primary play, then I believe it can be seen as being exploitative, which I believe does have to do with a lack of empathy, as I think explotation isn't possible without a lack of care for those affected.
If it's due to the overall enjoyment of the playerbase, then knowingly using these strategies despite their negative impact on others is blatantly unempathetic.
We all have our ideas on how to better balance the game and myself as well as perhaps you, have changes in mind. I'm not saying that what BHVR has done is "good enough" to put it simply, but it's taking a step in the right direction.
All this to say ultimately, as stated in my original comment, I believe that a lack of empathy is at the root of many issues in the game. The game will not improve if players remain in their bubbles and refuse to acknowledge the struggles of others. Or better yet, be aware of them but continue to do so without care, simply because they can.
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I've noticed in my games that at the start everyone is on gens, but when people start going down, the gens stop. Healing, Unhooking, trying to find a med-kit to heal, or just in chase. I don't think the issue is survivors not doing gens, it's when to do gens. Sometimes you need to stick through an injured state. Someitmes you need to unhook that person and run back to the gen still injured wihtout healing. Sometimes you need to let that person stay on hook a little longer to finish it off. Certain gens are more important to get done than others as well. It's not something that can be "taught" it's something you end up learning the more you play. Game sense and all that.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767384#Comment_3767384
Trying to win in a video game has nothing to do with a lack of empathy. I reject this entire line of reasoning.
The game is flawed, but the game is what it is. Pretending to play an ideal version of the video game where those flaws don't exist is putting yourself at a disadvantage. Now, you may choose to do that for whatever reason you want (mercy, giving yourself a challenge, etc.) but declaring that those who do not are lacking empathy is honestly absurd.
If what you're doing in the game is furthering your objective or interfering with your opponent's then doing so has nothing to do with a lack of empathy. As I mentioned before, this is distinct from BM/griefing behaviors, which I would define as doing something with the intent of causing negative emotions in other players, and that does not further your objective or interfere with theirs in any way. This is where the "legal but makes you a jerk" part of your argument comes in — for example, bleeding everyone out for 4 minutes even if you can hook. This is not remotely in the same category as tunneling someone out, sabotaging hooks, getting flashlight saves, etc., which all directly further an objective or interfere with the opponent's.
I would argue that the problem instead is people who continue to play DBD even though they are not having fun, and then attribute the actions of their opponent to malice when they are bested.
None of this is to say that anyone should give up on the game; there is good in this game buried under the layers of BHVR's complacency. We can and should argue for change to the game, but blaming other players for playing the game as it exists today rather than how you want it to be is not the way.
First off, if my message came across as hostile in any way I want to make it clear it was not intended to be so. Sometimes tone is difficult to portray in forum messages like these, and I do appreciate you taking the time to have a discussion about this, and to explain your points of view. I respect your points of view, even if I do very much disagree.
There is nothing wrong with trying to win, but the methods chosen to do so are a personal choice. Acknowledging flaws in the game and then exploiting those flaws because they're available does, in my opinion, reflect that individual. And that's where the lack of empathy comes in. The distinction between playing to win and BM is very subjective, but even strategic moves or traditionally "unfun" playstyles can be done without exploitation.
For example, slugging can be a valid tactic during specific circumstances like if sabo or flashlights are in play. But slugging an entire team to bleed them out, especially now that hooks respawn even after death, in my opinoin, crosses a line. It is still technically allowed, it is still a strategy, but you are knowingly creating a very poor experience for other people, and that does show a lack of empathy. Bully squads show a lack of empathy, even though continously blinding a killer over and over is not against the rules, it is still knowingly making someone else's experience as miserable as you can.
When it comes to your opinion on "the problem is the people who continue to play even though they are not having fun", I agree to an extent. If you're unhappy most of the time when doing something, then you should spend your time doing something else. But that doesn't take away individual player accountability to recognize when strats/perks/playstyles/items/combos etc. harm the collective enjoyment of the community as a whole. I do not think good sportsmanship should be discouraged or ignored.
Advocating for BHVR to make changes is important, but so is encouraging the community to make changes as well. Promoting empathy and responsibility in my opinion, is pushing for change. BHVR provides the framework, they set up the playground, but just because you can shove another kid off the swing doesn't mean you should. And if you do, I don't blame the playground.
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@Mandy said:
This is the first iteration of the mode, there will likely be more - more killers, more maps, more classes etc. Maps need to be bigger for the mode to accomodate all the additional things, so it does take some time to get those adjustments in as well, hence adding more each time.
Is there a possibility of some kind of unbreakable being added? Myself and a fews others have had a few matches where all 8 get slugged until they bleed out.
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Just had a match with a nurse and a trapper who slugged every person, didn't hook until everyone was down. Truly…miserable. And of course had to have that " GGS! :)" Afterward lol.
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766072#Comment_3766072
Do we know whats considered "High mmr" ? I've always wondered how this bracket is described (aside from the blant numbers they mentioned somewhen). I don't know if I am in high mmr but I would say it feels like I am. However when looking at the high mmr bracket there is the almost gap I was talking about.
As mentioned earlier I don't want to stomp survivors. I don't know how to reach common ground with that many aspects and variables and maybe its simply not possible to do so.
But is it fair to just say "there is this group of squad players and we will just accept as a fact that they bully killers on purpose or win a lot more then intended by the basegame mechanics"? I don't know how big the group of "high mmr" is after all but shouldn't a game aim for equal conditions among all players?I believe from the past Stats posted by BHVR, High MMR consists of the Top 5% of players. So, top 5% of all time.
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@Vaimore said:
The mode just launched you dork. Of course people want to try teaming up with friends as killer. None of that has anything to do with my mentions. Stick to topic.
There's really no need to start name calling. It's just rude.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766972#Comment_3766972
The problem isn't that players "insist on playing the game however they want." BM and griefing aside, this is a ridiculous argument.
There are playstyles that are clearly more efficient than others, and typically the most efficient ones are the least fun for the other side. This is not the fault of the player choosing the playstyle, it's the fault of BHVR for creating a game where the most efficient playstyle is so much less fun than less efficient playstyles.
The fact that people play to win is not problematic. Direct your frustration at BHVR, not other players.
IOW, don't hate the player, hate the game.
I do understand your point, and I agree there are more things BHVR should do to change certain things, but I think the issue with this mentality is that it removes any form of responsibility from the player themselves, using BHVR as a scapegoat to justify playing selfishly with the defense of, "Well, it's allowed." There are plenty of things that are allowed and legal, but they still make you a jerk: interrupting people, rummaging through other people's garbage once it's on the street, filming others if they're on public property, etc.
This mindset takes all the agency away from the individual, which again, circles back to a lack of empathy. Refusing to change regardless of how it makes others feel because it's not against the rules is problematic. Of course, BHVR can and should implement measures to discourage certain playstyles/tactics, which they have done, but I think the fact that people still take advantage of a system that many people agreed is flawed, says more about the individual than BHVR themselves. At some point, people have to take accountability for their choices.
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Unfortunately, being without bias is probably not possible due to the way humans in general work. I don't mind if you're a Killer Main or a Survivor Main, bias doesn't bother me, it's the lack of empathy, that bothers me.
I've said this in the past and I'll say it again, this community absolutely insists on playing the game however you want regardless of how it makes others feel. And so that's what players did. And now people wonder why the community is so "us vs. them". We did this to ourselves.
You can't just stop caring about how other people feel and expect peace to exist. In any capacity, game or not.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763709#Comment_3763709
I don't understand what is gray when people are literally doing bannable offense, it's 100% bad, no question
I agree that it’s a bad decision and I don’t support it, but to completely disregard the reasons for people doing so is almost as ignorant as the people that quit in the first place.
A serial killer is always in the wrong, but that doesn’t mean the reasons why they did it don’t matter. It’s important to recognize patterns and what lead people to making those bad decisions. Once we can understand what drives people to certain things we can prevent them. My entire point is that the fact this has become such a frequent issue is not a coincidence. Again- it is NOT the right choice but when so many people are unhappy it’s also not right to simply ignore every case based upon a generalization of every person simply being an entitled baby. It reminds me of the people that say “everyone else is the problem - not me” and then wonder why they’re alone lol
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763339#Comment_3763339
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763339#Comment_3763339
If they are unhappy with the game they should not play it.
Also btw. to everyone saying 60% killrate is unfair, this is an average of 2.5 survivors killed per match (not for every killer/every player mind you. Some players go on full 4k streaks while others struggle to even get 2k)
50% would mean its 1k or less on average. This is an asymmetrical game, the balance will NEVER be 50/50 between the two roles. But the main issiue is objective rushing anyway, killers trying to spread hook states evenly are bound to loose. And it doesnt make any sense for a survivor to hold back on gens either. BHVR is trying to incentivice chase but they do it with perk nerfs/buffs, they dont do it on the objective itself.To be honest, I think that's a very black-and-white way to look at a very gray issue. People are unhappy with the game in its current state, and based on past experiences, you can change the current state by "boycotting" like this. This method, while flawed, does push for change. Honestly, it feels like only when things are routinely "abused" in the game do big changes happen. It's a terrible method, but it gets results.
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While I don't support players quitting early because it messes up other people's games, it's really strange to me that this behavior is often always dismissed as, "Oh, those players are just entitled babies" The fact that early quitting is such a common issue should be a cause for concern. Disregarding it as the actions of nothing but entitled players is a clever way to ignore why people do it, and can be used as a scapegoat instead of focusing/discussing the possible underlying issues that are leaving so many players unhappy.
And again, I don't condone quitting early, but this community often insists that you should play the game however you want, regardless of how it affects others. I'll add as well that it doesn't help that when people react this way and essentially "boycott" the game, it does get BHVRs attention, and changes are usually made in response. This almost "rewards" the behavior because if enough people are unhappy, BHVR takes notice and changes things, even if those changes aren't well received or later reversed - it still worked.
I think stats like this are very interesting. It does kind of make you think about what you believe is fair. Like how many games should anyone lose before eventually you don't blame them for just giving up? Or better yet how many losses should one be expected to have without feeling like giving up?
Idk. I gues that's an impossible question becaue everyone is so differeent.
I'm unsure how to feel about this all lol
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I don't know people are so surprised slugging with twins is still popular? I literally played against a ttv yesterday who was playing twins, slugged the whole team at 5 gens. When I asked if they were doing a kill streak or something they said, "No this is just how you play twins!" It's not as if this is uncommon?
Truth of it is, certain playstyles especially paired with certain killers or perks can make the game much much easier to win. If the playstyles weren't sucessfull then they wouldn't be playstyles at all, and certain perks designed to completely negate those playstyles, and build in mechanics in the game wouldn't have been added if it wasn't such a big problem.