dugman

@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2630330#Comment_2630330
I said they are probably going to add one because think about it
What else could they do to cater for both of these groups?

He was talking about "catering to people who want the MMR hidden versus being visible". So it could be that maybe they'll show an MMR bracket, for instance, but you can opt to make that information hidden from other players.

in my god did I missed dbd without mmr, ptb is a fun experience since there's no mmr Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

How does he play if you switch to more of a zoning strategy with the traps on that map? Use the traps to block anticipated strong vaults and pallets in a zone, along with add-ons that keep them resetting. The survivors will know where they are if they’re paying attention but still have to disable them to make that vault usable.

Obviously still not an ideal map for Trapper, but maybe he can still do ok doing zoning versus trying for surprise hits?

in Eyrie of Crows map. Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629364#Comment_2629364
https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?t=5080
Time stamped

FYI that time stamp the dev says they are “looking for ways to cater to competitive players who want to sse their hidden MMR and players who want the numbers hidden”. He didn’t say anything there about making a competitive mode and casual mode.

in my god did I missed dbd without mmr, ptb is a fun experience since there's no mmr Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@JohnWeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2630121#Comment_2630121
Nice post, i will try to answer some of your points as good as i can.
i guess i'm a highly rated survivor and i'm globally high skilled however, i think that at some point, once a certain skill gap is reached, the killer cannot win chases fast enough. When both sides have the same level at "looping", the killer is forced to loose a certain amount of time to catch the survivor, there is nothing the killer can do to make it shorter. It's due to the overall maps and loops design. A safe loop being what it is, you have to turn, to force the pallet throw and to break the pallet.
yes maybe i'm facing killer players that are not that strong. I cannot know anymore as the teammates i'm matched with are often pretty good so the pressure is huge. If i loop, gens are popping like crazy, if someone else is looping same.As i have said, there is not much a killer can do. If the killer doesn't camp/tunnel, the game will force a loss.
you are right, i don't really know their rank. But all had thousands of hours on DbD.
agree. The game should be balanced around hooks and not kill. It's really frustrating to play an entire trial and to only get 3 hooks 😂
to my mind proxy camping is an issue as it grants the killer the opportunity to have free hit during the save. Also, proxy camping is not really playing, you are kind of "static" waiting for something to happen. I would highly prefer a game where you hook a survivor and go away to chase.
for perks, most killers and survivor had META perks. CoH has been tracked but the reste of the survivors'perks were DH,Lithe, IW, DS, BT. For killers corrupt/Pop or ruin/undying every time. The some Devour Hope, Haunted ground, Agitation, BBQ etc...
I will continue to do so with more datas. I would also like to track the trials' duration but it's kind of boring to do. But i'm sure the trial duration is tightly linked to the number of hooks/kills. At high MMR, the trials lasting around 10 minutes top, killers don't have the time to play and to impose their gameplay/pressure.
The game design must be reworked to require more brain and less standard timed loops. The time duration of a looping interaction between the best killer vs the best survivor on a given loop will always be the same, no matter what the killer does. That's the huge problem here. The killers cannot "break" loops with mindgame or power. Same on unsafe loops, the survivor cannot escape without a hit... game design is broken.

Thanks! Quick additional thoughts

You brought up a data point I didn’t think of that also might be worth tracking, hours played. If you jot down hours played that also probably has a correlation with skill. Again, not perfect, but maybe combining hours and Grades narrows it a bit. (Those two are correlated with each other of course too, but still better than nothing. 🤷‍♂️)
I think we might be using a different definition of proxy camping (the problem with some of these ambiguous terms). I’m thinking of proxy camping as zone patrol, so hook someone, go check a nearby gen, if you don’t get in a chase double check for a rescue (just need to get close enough to see if a rescue is incoming), if not check a different gen, etc. It sounds like you have a more passive tactic in mind though?

P.S. I certainly don’t claim to be a great chaser myself. I like to think I’m good at analysis but my twitch skills are lackluster, I still have trouble hitting juking survivors at times. 🤷‍♂️ I’m good at knowing where to go though, and I think my routing and looping is usually correct since I do catch high Grade survivors at mindgamable positions. My own stats aren’t worth tracking, though, for this purpose since I do mess up hits enough that I’m sure it hurts my overall results. (Stupid old person reflexes!) So I’d offer to help pitch in but I don’t think my data is worth much here.

in Chasing/patroling with most killers = insta loss Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@JohnWeak said:
BHVR honestly do something about the overall balance of the game. Most killers cannot even patrol/chase anymore and are forced to camp to apply pressure. There is no gameplay anymore at high MMR.
gens are flying
loops and loops combination are too strong
survivors meta perks are OP when all 4 have them
What is the killer supposed to do when :
2 CoH in the trial, one on one side and the other one on the other side of the map
2 to 3 DS/BT/DH
3 Toolboxes
All survivors on a different gen
4 survivors that know their way at looping
What are the killer's options but camping and tunneling ? Do you really think you provide a great gameplay ?
Most of my trials with Tier A and lower killers end up being 3 hooks by the time one gen is left. 4 hooks, maybe 5 by the time the doors are at 99% - and this with proxy camping. Without proxy camp, you end up with 2 hooks when they all escape.
And when i'm playing survivor, most of the killers i face experience the same result.
Yesterday i have played soloQ 10 games, here are the results (DC/Suicides first hook removed - camp/tunnel trials recorded) :
The nurse camped and tunneled, same for the Blight, Legion played really well, Spirit as well, there was a trial against a Spirit with a DC that i removed and another one with a nurse with a suicide first hook that i removed as well. Then i have switched to duoQ with pretty much the same results but didn't record, one ghostface even did 0 hook...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BOHJGCXCU167/image.png
Average # of hooks = 4,7
Average # of kills = 1,7 with a standard deviation of 1,5 (proof that most games are ending with 2k +/- 1,5 = really unbalanced, it's everything or nothing).
My personal escape stat = 70%
And all this is in soloQ and it's pretty much the experience i have every time i soloQ. I don't imagine my stats with a SWF of 4 survivors with my skill level...
What are you thinking about when you balance the game seriously ? How is it possible to let the game in such a terrible state ?
To conclude i will give the terrible number :
An average of 4,7 hooks at high MMR in soloQ but everything is fine right ?

Interesting post, quite a few things to unpack. 🙂

I’m just assuming you’re a very high rated survivor player based on your experience and overall results that’s my impression but feel free to correct me if you think I’m wrong. One possible issue is if you are especially high skill at survivor then the matchmaking system is often going to be stuck having to pair you up with killer players not as highly rated as you. So when you look at your overall results over all matches I’d expect you to be escaping most of the time just based on that alone, since obviously your chances of escaping against a weaker player than you are going to be significantly better than 50/50. So a 1.7 average kill rate by the opposition in your matches could just be indicating that a non-negligible chunk of your matches are against killers who aren’t in your hidden rating bracket (within say 5% or 10% of your rating)
Likewise a 70% escape rated to a top skill survivor is in line with averages I’ve seen posted from others. When Otz tracked a hundred of his games recently his escape rate was around there if I remember right, for instance. Again, as above that’s something I’d expect assuming there are a lot of matches where it’s ending up putting you against lower rated killers since there’s only so many people in your rating bracket.
Unfortunately we obviously don’t know the ratings of the specific killer players in that table. The closest we have would be their Grades which aren’t listed here, which to use those we’d have to assume there is a strong correlation between top Grade and top rating. They might be correlated, but it’s hard to say since Grades are designed to go up over time the more you play on average so they measure number of games that month as much or more than kill rates. You made some anecdotal commentary of how well you thought a couple of them played, but really I think if we wanted to extend this to make results more objective you might want to track the Grades so at least there’s some skill-correlated, albeit maybe not strongly, variable to examine.
Tracking hooks was a good idea, the only caution there is number of hooks probably won’t be uniformly distributed over matches since they’re not independent events. The more hooks you get the greater the chances you get another hook that match. So games with 0-2 kills for instance don’t necessarily have a linearly connected number of hooks to games with 2-4 kills, i.e. I’d expect the latter to have more than twice the hooks of the former. Therefore even if the matches are coming out as intended with the most common results being 1-3 kills, there is probably a high variance in the numbers of hooks since they have that snowballing property.
On a side note I’m not sure why you think “proxy camping” is an issue. I understand why actual “face camping” where the killer stands around doing nothing at a hook is something the designers should try and avoid, but “proxy camping” is just zone defense where the killer is patroling generators and the hook in a wider area of the map. Seems to me that’s a perfectly reasonable and fair way to play the game and not something of concern from a design or balance perspective. After all, the killer’s main strategy is to defend various targets including generators and hooked or slugged survivors, so how is patroling a section of the map that contains them a problem?
You mentioned perk loadouts being an issue but didn’t track the perks in the matches. If you try this again it might be worth jotting down the perk usage for the matches, that could help illuminate how much meta perks are correlate with escape rates. Same for killer perks if you wanted to look at that as well.

All in all it’s an interesting read. If you do this again with some additional tracking data and a bit of a larger sample size it could be a nice follow up experiment. I’m hesitant to really draw much from this data above simply because it’s difficult to how much factors I mentioned above can cloud what may or may not be actual balance issues.

in Chasing/patroling with most killers = insta loss Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@R2k said:
For me Mori is way overrated. Only mori i enjoy is PH final judgement. Everything else makes me zzzzzz. I don't get it why there is so many unnecessary movements when u can kill with single strike and move away.

It’s not just the place you go but the journey that makes the trip memorable. 😄

in Killer Tier List #3955736585937, Based Off Mori Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

Ghost Face is definitely my favorite mori. 😱 🔪 😈 📸

I agree that all the ones in the top of the original list above are wicked animations. The ones I think are maybe the blandest that I can think of off-hand are Wraith, Pig, Legion, Trapper (and of those four Legion is maybe the best?)

By the way, Pyramid Head technically has two mori animations: his final judgement quick chop, and the longer full animation he gets from a normal source like Memento Mori or Devour Hope (where he summons bindings in midair that hold them in place while he stabs them.) The latter is definitely more exciting looking than the former, although the former is very quick and to the point!

in Killer Tier List #3955736585937, Based Off Mori Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/293962/i-dont-get-it-why-do-i-get-targeted-over-other-survivors
A few thoughts:
Often I'll attempt to eliminate the strongest survivor first. That's just common sense.
I'm more likely to tunnel down a 'hider' than a 'runner'. Runners are fun to play against. Hiders are amazingly frustrating.
I'll also do that on people that run boons.
There is some possible confirmation bias here.

Actually strategically trying to eliminate the weakest runner first is a better strategy than the strongest runner because you will eliminate the former much more quickly on average, and once you have one kill down it significantly increases your pressure on the remaining three.

in I don't get it... Why do I get targeted over other survivors?? Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@Incarnate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629525#Comment_2629525
Alright, so you've answered my questions quite differently and with responses that are very similar to your other posts, not just your reponses to me.
Yes, those two things actually do need to be balanced, you but you keep insisting they don't need to be.
Yes, it does matter if Boons being replacable is inherently better than Hexes being permanently destroyed, as both systems use the totem system, and in the 4vs1 scheme - the greater scheme of things, this is where it in fact is exceptionally important that both systems are balanced in relation to each other, and how they affect the overall balance of the game - which is part of adjusting the individual parameters. With regards to the dynamic between Boon & Hex totems using the same totem system both sides need to able to counter each other equally, that's how balance works. How it is now, is just a great example of how it's not balanced correctly in relation to each other. Currently the survivors can completely counter-play the killer's perk choices & benefits (and even strategy), alone from being able to cleanse those totems, where as the killer only being able to soft counter them, means that the killer has NO way of actually completely counter-playing it, only temporarily. Not only does being able to cleanse totems represent the equivalent of negating perk benefits but also is a means to hard counter a strategy. You keep insisting it's not necessary, you say I'm making fundamentally wrong assumptions - from my perspective you're making just as fundamentally wrong assumptions. Perhaps, we're just approaching this from different methods and way to solve the same problem, where neither aren't necessarily wrong.
"You do NOT need to make the two overall systems balanced, you only need to make the individual perks themselves balanced." - Please do elaborate on how you can balance these and know that these are in fact balanced, because from my perspective you can't unless you balance them in relation to something else, and that something is that which they affect and/or oppose or is part of.

To answer your last question, the main step to balancing perks is by comparing datasets of matches with similarly rated players partitioned over using and not using the perk being analyzed. Then compare the discrepancies in the results of the two sets and you get a potential estimate for the size of the impact of the perk on those result outputs. By controlling the estimates for other factors like how often the perk is used in combination with other perks that you also have data on, you can compare match results with the perk in a table of possible popular loadouts, each with various averages and deviations in results, with the lens of then normalizing that within the main partitions of using and not using the perk. If you see statistically significant positive or negative biases after normalizing then you know what direction to tune the parameters of the perk. At that point you use some trial and error and educated guesses with various possible scenarios where to set the parameter you’re tweaking and eventually implement the best looking version. Then review and retweak if needed on the next pass a few months later.

And generally speaking balancing asymmetric games with different systems on opposing sides is nothing new to boons or DbD. Game designers have been doing that kind of balancing for decades. Just because two systems don’t work the same way doesn’t mean you can’t compare the statistical results they generate, nor that you can’t then adjust one up or down if desired. And in fact when balancing game components itks important to change as few variables as possible at a time, that way you can more definitively know that the change you made is having the impact you’re seeing in testing and that it’s not due to some unknown combination of factors from multiple changes interfering with each other.

In the end we both want the same thing - survivors and killers not to have perks that are too powerful or too weak. And I’ve never disagreed with you that the current two Boons could possibly use adjustments in their eventual balance pass. I’m just disagreeing with you that the best way to try and balance something is by making major changes to an underlying system that affects multiple perks versus more surgically changing one parameter at a time in one perk at a time, testing those changes, and repeating.

in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@Incarnate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2628760#Comment_2628760
I am asking you what drawback(s) you think it currently has that makes it balanced? Not how you think it can be balanced.
You believe it's enough to just change the values of the internal effect parameters, whereas I and others do not, that more is required. I do get your logic, but is needed than just change the values of the parameters. Also, when it comes to game balance, it's essential that both sides can counter an effect equally well.
Actually, you're the one that is mathematically and objectively incorrect, because the balancing of said system isn't just based on it's parameters internally, but also on how it affects and is affected by external parameters and not necessarily the same parameters, which is what I've been saying, just using different language. For instance, I mentioned, that because totems used to be killer-exclusive but now also are used by players, that makes using hex totems even more high risk to use, as now there will way more survivors looking for totems - thats an external parameter that is being affected - this is a parameter you can only affect by making it so people aren't going to be using boon totems. Also, changing a variable/parameter to too low to be viable, basically defeats the purpose of it even being in the game. And the optimal would be in the middle of that range, is basically just another way for you to say, you wan the boon system to stay the same, just with different values. So when you're rooting for the most simple solution, there are so many more aspects to consider than just the internal effect parameter values.
The only way it can balanced based on your way of thinking is to remove existing or add new parameter/values, which also includes parameters that affect from outside the formula (system). Removing a parameter/value is the equivalent of setting it to zero. Adding a parameter could for instance be adding the option for the killer to cleanse totems (blessed or not), this basically affect the parameters from the outside of the boon system.
Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but, everything you're saying basically is supporting it should stay the way it is, just with different values, which is very far from the optimal balance. An optimal balance also contains a viable counter, this one does not - a soft counter is not viable nor balanced, especially when considering that the survivors have a hard counter to the hex system that uses the same totem system. The only reasonable and balance solution to this aspect of the boon system and totem system, is to make the killer able to cleanse totems.
Oh, and by the way, since both the boon system and hex system used the totem system, they're part of the same system, both have parameters which on one end can be too weak on the other too powerful, and in the middle is the optimal value - this is another example of the intermediate value theorem. But what you've basically been saying, is that this aspect shouldn't be changed, which is essentially the equivalent of ignoring this aspect, even though it's part of the parameters.

Your question: "I am asking you what drawback(s) you think it currently has that makes it balanced? Not how you think it can be balanced."

And my answer, again, is: I didn't say I think these individual Boons are balanced. In fact I said it's quite possible Circle of Healing is unbalanced. Nor did I say that I think the "overall way Boons is placed is balanced with the overall way Hexes work". What I said is

THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T NEED TO BALANCED SO I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE NOT

It doesn't matter if Boons being replaceable is inherently better than Hexes being permanently being destroyed because the individual perks can be balanced around that difference. You keep insisting that I need to give you a way to make how Boons are placed balance with how Hexes are placed, and that's fundamentally a wrong assumption. You do NOT need to make the two overall systems balanced, you only need to make the individual perks themselves balanced. You're trying to argue in essence that asymmetrical game mechanics can never be balanced because they work differently and one is going to have some inherent benefit over the other, but that's simply not the case.

So please, stop telling me I "haven't answered your question". I've answered it four or five times now. You just don't like the answer.

in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

Sure, I'll give this a whirl

Nurse is the only killer I actively really hate playing. So much so that I keep her daily mission on my log just so I never get it ever again. It's not that she's not effective, it's that staring at the ground 1/3 of the match is easily the most annoying game mechanic in DbD. The few times I do play her I intentionally use her terrible add-ons that turn off her teleport after a successful and make her move 105% speed normally with only one blink just I can play as a pseudo normal basic killer with no ability rather than her. (Just my opinion.)
The ones I labelled "dislike" is maybe a bit strong even. I enjoy playing the game with them well enough, but relative to everybody above them I just like the other people's playstyles better. (Or in the case of a couple of Neutrals I just haven't played them yet.)
Neutrals are the ones that feel "ok", or that I just haven't played to get an opinion on in the case of Artist, Trickster and Nemesis.
Normally I just log in, do a daily mission, and log out for the night. It takes a game or two basically. The ones I Like Playing are ones I might squeeze in another game or two sometimes after I do their mission, just because they're fun to play.
Doctor and Freddy are my favorite killers currently. I love Freddy's mobility and aesthetic, and I love that the Doctor's tracking keeps him in chases non-stop as well as just having a cool theme for an ability.

I don't keep track of my stats by killer or anything, so I'm not sure how that list matches up exactly, but there's probably correlation. I'm a terrible shot with Deathslinger and Huntress, but I do pretty well with Doctor, Freddy and most of the Likes. And since I have no desire to play Nurse I'm obviously really terrible with her. Of killers that might not line up, I used to be decent with Clown a year ago before I took a break for a while but I'm definitely rusty and not quite used to that new two-color bottle system so I don't think my stats with him currently are great. And on the other end I've usually done not too bad with Trapper, I just don't like playing him as much because I find picking up traps from the map kind of tedious sometimes.

This is clearly NOT correlated with lists of "Best Killers in the Game" either. I like playing some killers that I totally realize aren't the best, and dislike some that I know overall are pretty good or great (there's no denying Nurse is awesome for people who master her!)

in Killer tier list based off how fun they are to play (with the Artist) Comment by dugman November 11, 2021

@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629058#Comment_2629058
I still doubt it's because of the mobile game. There is probably a bigger game in development. Possibly that cancelled Telltale game.

Maybe? 🤷‍♂️ I wouldn't be surprised if there's multiple Stranger Things video game type things planned. But I suspect Netflix wanted to tighten its control over that IP to make it truly exclusive to Netflix streaming services.

in Could you just give away the Stranger Things Content? Comment by dugman November 10, 2021

@Posh_xp said:
This is actually already a thing lol, they just made this in the new PTB, go check it out. It's one of the artist's perks and it seems pretty strong.

That's not quite what you're asking for. Hex: Pentimento isn't "reigniting old hexes", it's placing new Hex: Pentimento totems for that specific hex. You're not getting Ruin or Devour Hope back with it, for instance.

Now that being said, I do think Hex: Pentimento would be more interesting if it allowed a killer to replace a Blessed totem as well as cleansed ones with a Hex: Pentimento totem. That would kind of make the match into a tug of war between the killer and the boon placers fighting over the totem sites.

in Re igniting hex totems? Comment by dugman November 10, 2021

@GannTM said:
That’s not really fair for the people that bought the stuff with real money tbh. They’d have to refund everyone to make that fair which is just not a good idea because it will lose them money and it will take up way too much time to do.

While I agree they don't need to give Stranger Things content away, I don't think it has anything to do with "fairness" to the people who previously bought it. Just because I bought something a while ago doesn't mean it's somehow unfair for someone else to get it in a giveaway months or years later. Me paying for access to something isn't me paying to ensure nobody else ever gets it for free in the future. If I pay money to see a movie in the theater, I don't think it's unfair for other people to see it for free on television down the road, and I wouldn't go looking for a refund of my ticket price now knowing that I could have waited a long time and maybe seen it for free.

I do agree though that it's a shame they're losing the license, I thought they did some good work with that IP. And it's all so Netflix can push a Stranger Things video game on its new kind of meh-sounding mobile video game platform.

in Could you just give away the Stranger Things Content? Comment by dugman November 10, 2021

I think I need to clean my glasses. First I read that as "quitting because of Boomers", which I doubt there's a ton of Boomers playing DbD but who knows? 🤷‍♂️ Then I thought it was "quitting because of Boners", which I could understand but didn't want to picture.

Now it makes more sense.

in i am going to stop playing this game bc of booners Comment by dugman November 10, 2021

@Incarnate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626964#Comment_2626964
You answered my questions? Interesting, because I don't see the answers to them specifically, like for instance where is the answer to my question about where exactly the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits are? Because with all these current benefits, they are needed to be balanced out with something, sure you may not agree, but that doesn't actually change the fact that with this many benefits, they do need to have actual drawbacks.
Also, that you keep repeating the same things, doesn't mean they're/you're right and others are wrong. In fact, there a lot of things where you're blatantly assuming that you can just fix it by tweaking some values, that's not how balancing only works, and it doesn't make other ways of balancing it unnecessary.
To your part about: "You can’t just say “unable to remove is bad/good” in a vaccuum, you have to consider the actual individual effects of the perks you’re talking about." - I have to tell you that I actually am considering each individual effects and aspect of the perks, and I'm looking also looking at them with regards to the bigger picture - you don't seem to do what you say I should. Sure systems can work differently and still be fair and balanced, I haven't said anything about they couldn't, because fact of the matter, is that I'm pointing out there are some aspects with the boon system which are detrimental to the killer game play, but also what needs to be done to fix it.
You believe it's completely unnecessary to do balance out the benefits when you can tweak individual parameters, I disagree with you. Some parameters shouldn't even be included in the boon and thus should be removed, and the way the current boon system works is greatly imbalanced, and not just because of the parameters being too strong, but because of how the boon system is currently working and how much they're actually giving when active and the effect it has on the game play of the match.
You say there is zero reason to change how boons and hexes work in general when you can weaken or strengthen their actual effects, I disagree with you, there are a lot of reasons to that. Simply just tweaking values on either boons or hexes is not enough because of how they affect other parts of game play in detrimental way. How does it make sense that survivors can completely destroy totems and there by hard countering the killers perk, but the killer cannot? Also, since totems used to be killer-exclusive but now also are used by players, that makes using hex totems even more high risk to use, because now there will way more survivors looking for totems. So yes, it's absolutely necessary that the killer can cleanse totems if that is necessary, but most certainly also be able to replacing a hex, but it should be optional for the killer. For a killer that is playing with hex totems it will come to a point where the killer will have to decide if it wants to sacrifice it's totem (hex or dull). You seem to think it's fair and balanced, even with how powerful boon totems are now, that survivors can replace boons and the killer cannot, even that it's fair that the killer cannot hard counter it. It's heavily survivor sided as it is now, it's in no way shape or form where it's actually balanced and fair for both sides, boon totems aren't the only ones being heavily survivor sided, there are so many things in the game right now that is just that, and quite frankly that needs to stop! If anything, It should be balanced so it's fair for both sides, but it's not. You defending the boon system as it is and they should remain how they are but just have parameters tweaked a bit, makes you seem like you support this heavily survivor sided meta, but are you? I play both sides, but even if I was just playing survivor I would still want it to be fair for the killer, and this heavily survivor sided meta is just awful, and the boon system just further aggravates this, and people who support this really need to wake the f..k up and realize that it's not good for the game, and it only really caters to the competitive tryhards.

Again, here is your question and here is my answer:

where exactly the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits are? Because with all these current benefits, they are needed to be balanced out with something, sure you may not agree, but that doesn't actually change the fact that with this many benefits, they do need to have actual drawbacks.

Answer: Whatever inherent benefits exist in the general system of how Boons are placed can be balanced out by adjusting the specific effect parameters of the specific Boon you're trying to balance. The "drawback" you want would be lower effect parameters (e.g. lower Circle of Healing healing speed)

I already said this of course, and it is the answer to your question, just not apparently the answer you want to hear.

And the reason I keep repeating myself is because I can only correct your misconceived notion that balance is impossible with Boons being replaceable in so many different ways. You're just mathematically, objectively incorrect, and the argument is quite simple: if you can change a variable to make something too weak on one end, and change that same variable to make that same thing too powerful on the other end, then that variable alone can be used to balance that thing into a reasonable range. It's just an example of the intermediate value theorem.

And no, I'm not defending the specific effect parameters of Boons as they are one way or another. I have no data to say whether or not Circle of Healing is overperforming, so I'm not going to claim it is or isn't. The only thing I'm saying is that, if it is overpowered, the simplest method to balance it out is adjusting its healing speed. You're reading WAAAAAY too much into thinking that just because I'm disagreeing with you on that point that I'm disagreeing with you on whether or not it needs an adjustment.

in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by dugman November 10, 2021

@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2627824#Comment_2627824
took me a minute to figure out what endurance was, but yeah it's the Billy perk enduring. Lol fun build!

Lol, my bad on the typo. 😄