crogers271
crogers271
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I've had survivors stop playing in winning situations, but no idea if it was mercy or not. If the doors were open and a survivor rushed up to me to kill them I'd just carry them back to the gate.
As killer I have 3 reasons for mercy:
1: When team's really try and help each other out, especially if it is in a situation where it's down to two survivors and they are still actively playing the game, unhooking, etc. instead of just giving up/hiding.
2: With an early disconnect I'll usually hunt the remaining survivors to death hook and then let them escape, hoping to get everyone a pip. That's because the game was never fair because of the disconnect.
3: I'm ready for the next game. This is frequently with the last survivor in EGC, letting them out so I can get to the next game is a lot quicker than hunting them down.
As survivor there isn't really anything comparable. Maybe if I was in a SWF and realized we really outmatched the killer but they kept trying I could see it being comparable to number 1. But there is nothing comparable to situation 2 or 3 that I could know about.
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I think you should be able to pursue whatever strategy creates the greatest chance you'll win.
BHVR's design though isn't about win conditions. People can play for the win, or bloodpoints, or hook states, etc. Some of the tactics for winning are rightly viewed as boring. As killer, in situations where I do have a survivor out early, I dread the rest of the game because of how boring it is going to be. Tracking and finding the 3 survivors who haven't been tunneled is so incredibly boring.
Mainly, do what you want, I wish BHVR would make some game element changes to penalize certain playstyles, but they probably won't, accept that tunneling will leave you in situations with survivors hiding out on you (I'll take a dozen teabags over spending five minutes playing find the survivor), and might push you into an MMR bracket you don't want.
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Teleporting around fits Freddy, I wouldn't change that part. I would say once all gens are powered though Freddy can teleport to any gen so his ability doesn't just disappear.
I think pallet Freddy is conceptually going in the right direction, but he should be able to do even more map modifications. Block windows, add walls, etc. Really make it feel like when survivors are asleep they are in his world.
However, I highly doubt the engine could handle that part.
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@ReikoMori said:
Does no one get that Tombstone and tuft of hair makes it take basically an entire game to get to tier 3?
How can it be too strong when you legit have to basically almost throw the game for it to offer any value.
I think the problem for some survivors is that yeah it takes the Myers the entire game, but then he becomes unstoppable. That's a bigger issue for new survivors who don't really know what to do against it.
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OP, Myers probably needs a general rework, though he feels really killer appropriate and is one of the few killers I actually find creepy.
1 Requires a few seconds of stun when become Evil III Like a oni(daemon)Nah, Oni can cross the map with ease so the stun makes sense. Maybe if its a tombstone Myers or if you are buffing Myers speed/duration of Evil 3
2 Palette stun, light stun should be able to deactivation Evil III, like Plague, THE LEGION, The WraithMyers is really different than those killers. The stun + pallet break gives the survivor a lot of time.
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@Skill_issue said:
4 survivors slugged on ground killer doesnt hook = 4 minute timeout/no chance to hurry bleedout meter
last minute switch to different loadouts (swf specialty)
game held hostage by killer standing over hatch and not closing itsurvivors disarming trappers traps without any penalty
game held hostage by survivors not doing objectives after a set time (hide and seek in red forest time)
call of brine/overcharge stacking
circle of healing stacking with medkits (stacked medkits in general)
face camping bubba
tombstone myers (thought he was getting an addon pass after ghostface)
thoughts? what am i missing(help me out)?
last minute switch to different loadouts (swf specialty)Yeah, that one is confusing. Either make it so both sides go in blind, or if you want the killer to get last choice after looking at survivors make a locked period where killer only can make switches.
survivors disarming trappers traps without any penaltyI don't think that is per se a problem, trapper is generally weak, but it's not like that is the one unique thing
Also adding more things to disarming trap would just turn basement trapper into an absolutely impossible situation
circle of healing stacking with medkits (stacked medkits in general)I think the bigger problem is just how much power survivors can get out of medkits. Part of the problem with the game design is that brown items/addons to purple are substantial jump.
face camping bubbaHe's boring, but it's surprising that hook camping in general is such an element of this game
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Hug tech - spirit bug
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If this was a perk, I doubt it would be as overpowered as some people here think, though I guess it would depend on the zone it would cover.
The 14 seconds spent blessing the totem could instead be spent on a gen. If the killer gets to the area quick, you haven't made any progress on the gen, thus not needing to kick it. If he gets to you late where the 14 seconds would have made a difference, it was a horrible mistake to waste the time to bless. Once the killer finds a gen he can't kick, he just knows he has to find the totem to destroy.
Like all boons it could serve as a distraction to give survivors more time to get away, but that's about all I'm seeing. Maybe if you got a good totem that covered multiple areas, or a setup around a 3 gen that your team is going to come back to later, it could have more of an impact.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374564#Comment_3374564
-"Survivors can't see the killer's prestige, cosmetics, power (item) in the lobby."
Sadly this is not true because DBD has terrible cheat protection.
-"I have noticably worse games when the killer dodges, which is why I consider lobby dodging to ruin the game for all 5 players"
When I play killer I agree that the lobby is usually weaker if multiple people dodged. What to know why? I can easily tell who is solo and who is not. It's just a fact that solo queue players are not as strong as a SWF.
All things equal why would I play against a 4 man SWF? Convince me.
"You mess up the game for others" - too bad..... SWF messes up the game for me.
Why would I play against a lobby with 4 items when I can "shop" around and get a lobby with 0-2 items instead? Lobbies with fewer items are weaker than lobbies with 4 items (all things being equal).
When it comes to high tier players the game is rigged against the killer. DBD isn't balanced for efficient survivors and when I play killer I play around the limitations. So I will definitely dodge any lobby that looks like it might be "Sus".
The ideal lobby I don't dodge is 2 people in a swf and 2 solo players with 1-2 items or 1-3 weak items. I could "not" lobby dodge but then I get more frustrating games and fewer points per hour.
Before we address lobby dodging we need to address : Making the game fair to killer first. A knee jerk reaction that to fix the fact that Nurse and Blight reign supreme over every other archetype would be to give all the "lesser" killers MMR caps. As an example softcap the trapper's MMR at like 1200 MMR. If you keep winning you can go up but you are hardcapped at say 1400 MMR. Do this for all the killers that are not Nurse/Blight.
That way we have the best players always playing the best 2 killers. In the following year you take the time and effort to make every killer in the game within 15% of the power of Nurse and Blight. Then you remove the MMR caps.
All things equal why would I play against a 4 man SWF? Convince me.If you continually lobby dodge to get the easy games, you'll win, raising your MMR. This will necessitate even more lobby dodging in the future.
It might even lead to a skewed view of the game where you've pushed your MMR via dodging that you think the game design is fundamentally broken.
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I think the one thing some commenters are missing from the OP is the idea that the tunneling killer will just find the weakest link. Yes, if the killer zeroes in on the survivor who is going to run him in circles, it's game over for the killer. But frequently what happens is the weakest link gets focused on and knocked out. It's the obvious strategy, just annoying.
To OP - there is one downside if the other team realizes what is happening, and that is much like camping they can stay on gens. Don't rush for an unhook because the killer has to stay on the side of the map with the tunneled target. If the tunneled target does get a moment away from the killer they should go into hide mode until a new chase is picked up.
Still, that takes a team to realize what happens which means generally limited to SWFs.
@BenOfMilam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374561#Comment_3374561
yeah, that's pretty much all the exact problems with that idea. It's a flawed idea, but it's an idea.
If you want to stop tunneling, you need to make it physically impossible to do so. It's a pretty common idea in game design that if a player wants to do something, they will do it and you cannot stop them no matter how many barriers you put in their way.
The only way to actually prevent an undesirable behavior is to make it impossible. e.g., the only way to stop players from teamkilling is by removing friendly fire. Players WILL continue to teamkill even if they get a 48 hour ban every time they do it.
If we want tunneling to no longer be a part of Dead by Daylight, we as a community need to brainstorm solutions that will make it completely impossible. Since my idea is too flawed and causes too many new problems and I can't think of anything better, someone else needs to come up with something that solves the problem without completely uprooting the game (and I really don't there is a solution that satisfies that condition).
I think the bigger problem is that it would just play like a very different game.
You could play that killer has to get to a certain number of hooks and then the game ends. If there is a weak survivor the killer is focused on, just leave them on the hook until the killer moves away. Problem: the game would lose a lot of its tension.
To take your idea you could do something more complex. Let's call it an appease the entity meter. A killer has to get to 100 points before the entity begins to accept hooks and moris. The first time a survivor is hooked is worth 20 points, then 15,, then 10, then 7 etc. In the above math (which is meant as just an example) the killer could start eliminating survivors after 6 hooks if spread out. But if they just focus on a single survivor they get less and less value.
You could even use something like that as a balance hack requiring certain killers to get slightly higher or lower scores.
However I think BHVR prefers the straightforwardness of 3 hooks and out.
My suggestion for tunneling would be whichever survivor has the most hooks gets a permanent haste boost until another survivor equalizes them on hook states. Additionally, if one survivor is unhooked at two hook states and no other survivor has been hooked, they come off the hook completely healed. Neither would prevent tunneling, but make it a little harder.
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Part of any solution though depends on how tunneling is defined. I don't consider it tunneling if the killer eliminates someone after 6 hooks (or even 5 if they've gotten everyone at least once). To address tunneling before that level requires minor changes, like haste/health/gen speed. If however you think killers should hook everyone twice before eliminations, than you are going to need more substantial game adjustments (such as killer benefits) to accomplish that.
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The issue is that the game doesn't restrict any perk combinations. So when looking at new boon perks they have to take into consideration not just what it does on its own, but how it could potentially combine with all existing boon perks. A misstep and you create a broken situation.
If survivors/killers were limited to one boon or one scourge it would be much easier to add new perks/enhance weaker options, but that isn't the way the game is designed.
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@DemocRat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374012#Comment_3374012
Experienced SWF that memorized map variants do.
I'm all for bringing soloQ up, but the standard shouldn't be the tippy top of map call out SWF. The number of balance changes you'd have to make to pull that off would be enormous.
Also, even with top level SWF, I've seen occasions were all the time they spend calling stuff out actually led to an error/mistake. I think the current direction of the HUD is good, if it is something that could be communicated easily in a word or two, let everyone have access to it, if not then don't provide it.
When I saw the title I thought this was going to be a suggestion for a perk a survivor could have. Which might be a good idea, but also the engine has a lot of problems with actually picking up when a chase is going on.
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With the growth of 3 genning, toolboxes are critical to try and break it. Change that and yeah toolboxes can get adjusted.
Though I'd take a slow down for a toolbox add on that prevented a gen from declining below a certain percentage.
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@cannonballB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371450#Comment_3371450
3genning for me is fun because it's a challenge. It's a battle of attrition, which i like because it keeps me on my toes. I have to constantly check all 3 gens, which means I'm actually doing something other than chasing survivors, which isn't the "fun" part of killer for me (survivor is far more fun in a chase than killer. Killer is just frustrating.)
And the killers job is literally to make you as miserable as possible until you die. Then my job with you is done but I still have 3 others I have to kill as well so it very much behooves me and killers in general to not care about your fun. That's not our jobs, nor should it be.
And the killers job is literally to make you as miserable as possible until you die.When I think horror I think tension, fear, excitement. Miserable is the feeling I associate with being trapped in a boring office meeting.
The first is something I'd love to replicate in video game form, the second is an awful game. You're saying you want to be the busy body office manager keeping people trapped for as long as you can think of things that need to be covered.
Games have to appeal to certain groups. If BHVR wants the game to be 3 gen attrition fests, okay I'll find another game, but I don't think that is their goal.
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Okay, I decided to go through the list you put together.
Awakened Awareness - I saw a killer using this in a comp level game (Hens survivors vs the crazy winstreak nurse), though that was more as a surprise. If the survivors are hiding someone near a hook you can get two simultaneous downs/hooks which is a massive advantage.
Beast of Prey - I've actually used this on killers and I find when I'm getting run in a loop and this kicks in the looper who had been beating me gets caught almost immediately.
Bitter Murmur - Helps with end game/NOED builds.
Blood Echo - Okay, this one I don't see a use for that isn't better accomplished by sloppy butcher. Maybe for something like a plague that wants to keep the survivors exhausted.
Claustrophobia - Yeah, seems really weak.
Coup de Grace - Never tried, maybe something like a Myers and a surprising insta down lunge?
Deathbound - Nurse's Calling seems clearly superior.
Deerstalker - Yeah, seems useless.
Dragon's Grip - Getting an exposed and a notification along with it always seems like a good thing.
Dying Light - Yeah, seems like the pros are too long to build and well outweighed by the cons.
Fire Up - Feels like the gains are too slow.
Furtive Chase - I don't see the purpose.
Gearhead - Yeah, seems really weak.
Grim Embrace - I haven't really tried it, but shutting the survivors down for 40 seconds in the middle of the match seems like it could be really useful.
Hangman's Trick - Against a sabo team is nice, but the info also really works out. If you have a build that let's you carry survivors for awhile, spin around while carrying them, you get a lot of info.
Huntress Lullaby - Noob murder perk.
Third Seal - Yeah, seems weak, more effective ways to blind survivors.
Hoarder - I've never tried, but would be crazy if you had this in a game were the other teams was trying to complete a chest open archive.
Hysteria - Yeah, seems weak.
Insidious - Camping, especially Bubba
Iron Grasp - What? This one is really good. Pair it with agitation to carry survivors as far as you want (and bait survivors while carrying), ignore boil over, go ahead and take swings at survivors body blocking, you have the time, make it to your scourge hooks, etc.
Leverage - Haven't tried Skully perks, but doesn't seem like a lot.
Nemesis - Not sure if it can be paired with builds focused on the obsession
Oppression - Seems useful to start multiple gen regressions, catches survivors by surprise that they suddenly have to do a difficult skill check.
Overwhelming Presence - Yeah, seems awful.
Predator - Yeah, bad.
Remember Me - Slow down those exit gates.
Shattered Hope - If you hit a team running CoH, invaluable
Spies from the Shadows - I tried to use this one for awhile, never really got value.
Stridor - Maybe with a good head set it can make a difference. I play with the freddy addon that increases grunts of pain and I usually find the survivors more quickly.
Territorial Imperative - Basement camper, but seems kind of awful.
Thanataphobia - I see this one quite a bit, slow down the gens.
Thrilling Tremors - Via deduction you can use this to figure out which generators are being worked on, quite a bit of info.
Zanshin Tactics - Agreed, seems weak, you'll learn this pretty quickly anyway.
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Same experience as OP. Played yesterday for three hours before I finally got an escape (so about a dozen games). Sometimes our team won, but I was the one caught at the end, sometimes other players just did nothing, a few games with disconnect because no one wants to play Skully, and, of course, sometimes just outplayed by the killer.
After finally getting my escape, switched to killer, Myers. Played five games, 3 wins via 4k, 2 draws. Stopped playing killer because it was unsatisfying.
I'd like an experience somewhere in the middle of those two.
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P25 - I was curious about this question and thought I'd lay it out by rarity and types
Items
Brown - 210 camping aid kits
Yellow - 82 flashlights
Green - 52 sport flashlight
Purple - 18 Alex's Toolbox
Iri - 27 skeleton key
Add Ons
Brown - 224 Instructions
Yellow - 82 socket swivels
Green - 147 Intense Halogen
Purple - Tie 67 Blood Amber/Crystal Bead
Iri - 96 Brand New Part
Offering
Brown - 130 Vigo's Blueprint
Yellow - 63 Hazy Reagent
Green - 31 Jigsaw Piece
Purple - 56 White Wards
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368290#Comment_3368290
The devs may be fine with 3 genning, but you might wanna read back on the Reassurance saga that happened several months ago before thinking they'd be fine with stalemate 45 minute games.
Basically, 5 friends decided to play KYF and test the limits of the new Reassurance perk. They kept their friend in game for the full hour. Many killer mains on this forum expressed concern about survivors being able to stall the game for others for that long (even though killers obviously had the means to ensure the game could still progress). The devs agreed and nerfed the perk into the ground.
So I'm not sure why if it wasn't okay for survivors to stall the game for that long back then, why they'd suddenly be okay with killers stalling the game now.
That's a great example.
@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368302#Comment_3368302
Hows this sound, 1 gen remaining mode killer is only allowed to have 9 gen kicks, 3 per gen is pretty fair because it can just be undone with a gen tap and to balance that out any survivor who gains a health state while 1 gen is remaining is broken until the final gen is finished, so survivors cant stall the game out by constantly running away to heal.
I'd take it. I'm not really worried about numbers or methods per se, that's what playtesting is for, more the idea that there should be some limitation on gen kicks to prevent the killer dragging a match on for 40 minutes.
I'd even take a gen kick limit and match time reduced to 20 minutes (timer stops once all gens complete) and if the survivors don't get the gens by then, killer victory to put pressure on both sides.
@ZeroEthics said:
I do think there could be room for some tweaks to her kit, but it would truly need to be a REBALANCE and not a nerf. You cannot just take from her, because she is already considered by many to be a weak killer. If you want to take something, you have to give something back. For example...
- Only one drone can be "active" at any given time, as opposed to now, where I can literally have them all active at once
- Any pallets dropped within a Drones active area are instantly shattered
So, if I do take a chase, I can drop drones in loops to shatter dropped pallets instantly (like dream pallets, they do nothing), but because that drone is active, the Gens are now unprotected. So I'm DECREASING my 3 Gen potential, but INCREASING my chase potential.
Worth noting that I am referring to the Killer activating drones. Survivors who run into drone areas all willy-nilly can still activate them.
Just thinking out loud :)
Rebuilding Skully around less drones (or considerably harder to refresh), but far greater power, I think would be a good idea that wouldn't really need to change the concept of the character.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371113#Comment_3371113
Literally part of survivor gameplay is being on hook. Being on hook is still being in the game and still playing it.
The loading screen is also part of the game. If something quadrupled the amount of time I spent on the loading screen I'd be pretty upset.
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I don't know Valorant, but it sounds something like Distortion Field for Octavia in Paladins.
So if I get the idea -
Survivors inside the drone area cannot see or hear outside
Survivors outside cannot see inside or through (or hear killer terror radius if killer inside)
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Problems I see (not involving whether the code can handle this or not).
Moving drones just make this harder / unnecessary
Really does nothing against SWFs - you bring this up but I think you're wrong, this would be relatively easy to track where a killer was last seen and the direction a field is moving in
Taking out the claw traps is such a huge element of how the trapper is designed (honestly I'd rather focus design more on her meter for tracking survivors if I was thinking redesign).
These changes allow Skull Merchant to redesign the map by creating stealth fields to either intimidate survivors, ambush survivors, or move across map stealthily.The earlier posters mentioned why not play Wraith if going for stealth, and I think this sentence leads to that conclusion.
I think the idea has merit if you take out the moving. Instead of being a stealth killer who hides herself, you create areas were survivors are blind (and not just the status). I get the idea, a survivor would have to enter an area not knowing if the killer was inside, and once in would have much less knowledge if the killer was coming.
But then we're back to the problem of SWFs and a survivor in a drone area still can be told what is going on.
Also:
3 gen focused killer
Depending upon how you work this out, possibility to just hide thing survivors absolutely need to know, such as location of slugs/hooks
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I don't think it works, but admire the attempt
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@RhodosGuard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371026#Comment_3371026
Which side is currently so ridiculously underplayed, that they have that +100% Bloodpoints bonus almost 24/7?
Maybe it is time Survivors get nerfed?
I am just saying. Considering the fact that they got BT for free and have that really unfun to play against version of DH now, Survivors seem awefully insistent on getting even more basekit perks.
Which side is currently so ridiculously underplayed, that they have that +100% Bloodpoints bonus almost 24/7?Survivors. Barring a little bit of time in the evening where it swings to even and occasionally killer .
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369376#Comment_3369376
A killer using a strategy you don't like to win doesn't prevent you from playing the game. People need to stop expecting very specific gameplay from the killer to consider the survivor as "playing the game".
I mean if the game was called hook hanging simulator or watch the killer from a distance I'd see your point, but the game is hide and/or chase.
If you want to argue this way you could say the servers could shut down, but its okay if we can still get to the loading screen because we're still playing the game.
On the other side, I understand why killers get upset at 4 person SWF's with BNP, it doesn't really give any killer to actually play the game in a way that is fun or fair.
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@Skill_issue said:
remember they dont have the lethality of a nurse...they are m1 killers at heart
after playing most of the weekend against a variation of skull merchants and knights the way to beat the 3 gen situation is quite similar
1) use a good toolbox with bnp and prove thyself/tenacity/sprint burst/deja vu (hyperfocus if you are good or resilience if you want to work injured or circle of healing boon setup away from the 3 gens) and a large map offering if desired
2) dont do the first gen immediately look for a 3 gen and observe the killer see if they are doing a 3 gen set up a circle of healing boon meanwhile or store energy from another gen if possible (you wont lose it if they dont leave the 3 gen you wont get hit)
3)if the killer sets up a 3 gen then split up into pairs and attack the two furthest gens in the 3 gen. one person does the drone/leads the guard away the other person does the gen as efficiently as possible. when the killer comes to your gen,sprint burst away if you have to take a hit take it. using coms or even the survivor hud the other team can see when one survivor is in a chase.
4) break the 3 gen and marvel as either killer isnt as oppressive as you perceived it...yes i have done this mostly as a solo and even easier as a swf all weekend. not saying the matches will be quick but once the 3 gen is dealt with it really isnt so bad
what i find interesting about both of these killers is that they force survivors to change their gameplans and it seems hard for some people to adapt. before you say i have to change my perk/addon build out to accomodate 2 killers every killer has a different counter play (medkits useless vs a plague for example or its a legion split up and dont do gens together) that is the beauty of dbd
your thoughts?
DC matches don't count toward MMR and published kill totals, but I don't think that means the data just entirely disappears from BHVR's radar.
The difference between Knight/Skully and Plague is that what you are suggesting is to take perks to counter 2 killers vs the thought that there is a small chance a killer might counter your perk combo.
As others have said, most of what you post about has to do with SWF.
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This comes up every now and then and it shows the different mind sets between killers and survivors.
I can't imagine feeling the same level of tension as a killer as I do as a survivor. As a killer I never feel out of the game. Even when I feel like I'm being outplayed as killer I know that a turn around is possible. As an example: one bad hook rescue by the survivors and I can suddenly turn the game around. The things a lot of killers mention about tension, the gens popping around you, don't even bother me.
Plus, as killer I win a lot more games than I lose.
As survivor I never feel 'safe'. Even when I feel like we are winning, I know the game can turn. 3 gens, NOED, basement hooks, etc. are all ways that the game can change really quickly in the killer's favor. Not to mention the game can collapse early, once a survivor is out the killer has such a huge advantage. Even after five gens are done I don't really feel like I'm safe until I'm out of the gates.
And as survivor, I lose a lot more than I win.
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If I win, it's because of skill
If I lose, it's BHVR's fault for poor game design
/sarcasm (though on this forum it does look like this is how some people view the game).
As killer, it's on me, though I adjust expectations based on what I hit. People in SWF with BNPs who chose the map? I'll be happy with something much less than a 4k. Four random survivors with weak perks and no gear? I better 4k (or have shown mercy).
Survivor its us as a team, barring disconnects/suicides/just not doing anything.
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Okay, let's say the OP is right, just for the sake of argument, and that BHVR rushes to fix issues when survivors DC.
What else do you want them to do?
You can rage all you want about that they shouldn't, but that won't change anything. To continue as a videogame, BHVR needs people to play. If people refuse to play against certain things/elements the game doesn't have a future. It doesn't matter whether they are right or not, the survivors have much more of a veto power over the game than killers do. It only takes one out of four survivors to ruin a game. If 1 out of 4 killers disconnected on me, okay, that's livable, I'm right onto the next game. If 1 out of 4 survivors disconnect then pretty much every game is ruined.
The only real possible solution (other than fixing the issue) is increasing the DC penalties. The downside is you risk potentially angering a lot of players who get disconnected for other reasons, bad internet, computer bugs, etc.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369171#Comment_3369171
-"I don't want tunneling removed just nerfed and killers buffed enough to win spreading bit of hooks"
Survivors tunnel generators so killers tunnel survivors. You either leave things the way they are or you radically change the system. There is not really much room in between.
-"Oni for example just needs a way to get that first hit faster so he could be buffed to 120% movement speed"
Of all the killers that need a Buff - it most definitely is not Oni.
I cannot believe they said "flicks were OP when Billy had them but they're fine when Oni does them".
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369174#Comment_3369174
Bloodlust exists because the maps are unfairly balanced and bloodlust is the design fix to remedy that. If you don't understand why the game is that way then you're basically saying : lets only have Nurse and Blight be the viable killers.
But then you go on to say : let's make sure we have variety in killers.
Bloodlust exists because the maps are unfairly balanced and bloodlust is the design fix to remedy that. If you don't understand why the game is that way then you're basically saying : lets only have Nurse and Blight be the viable killers.I have no idea what you are saying - to the point that I feel like you are responding to the wrong message. Yes, bloodlust is useful for some killers more than others, @NerfedFreddy proposed increasing the rate it is gained for weaker killers, I'm agreeing and saying that's a good idea as a balance solution without overhauling the game. I then propose a couple of other ideas that are mix of simple and if I could redesign the whole game type ideas, which was the request of the OP.
But then you go on to say : let's make sure we have variety in killers.Variety in killers/maps/etc is a key point of the game. DbD wouldn't have had nearly the lifespan it did without it.
What I'm saying is that people have to be realistic - variety and balance don't go together. We can discuss moving more toward balance, but there are a lot of factors people need to be aware of when having that discussion. Some of those things I believe BHVR could fix, others are inevitable components of the game.
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@cannonballB said:
So survivors hate camping and tunnelling. OK. Now survivors hate 3genning. How is it killers are supposed to kill?
These are the very best ways for a killer to get 3/4K.
Crazy that survivors want game play that actually allow them to play the game.
Camping: Stealth camping or coming back to check on a hook, not a problem. Just standing there freezes a survivor out of the game.
3 Genning: With some killers fine, but others can drag the game on as an infinite stalemate.
Tunneling: This one survivors do tend to be overly paranoid about, but it should be harder. The obvious play is to focus on the weakest survivor which makes the game brutal for newer players.
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The game should be a combination of chase and stealth as strategies - things that allow both sides to do something. Does a game style focus on those? If not, nerf.
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I'll share the confusion about not bringing them. When I started playing the reason for not bringing was obvious, didn't have a lot, but now I have so many that I'd I have to stop leveling to run out (and I've only been playing about half a year). As an example, on my main survivor I had been playing with medkits, but just switched to toolboxes. I have 92 green tool boxes (the two types combines) and 95 brand new parts.
I get not using them as a balance issue, though that's one of the things that makes the game so hard to balance.
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@Madjura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367652#Comment_3367652
You shouldn't be forced to run a specific perk every game to not have your fun ruined by something like what OP described
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367655#Comment_3367655
Some strategies / ways of playing like dragging out the game by holding a 3-gen and refusing to leave are so unfun they need to be removed from the game. "Just die" can't be the solution
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367658#Comment_3367658
3-gens were always possible. Changes to Ruin / Pop Goes The Weasel did not make them possible. You could undo all (or some) changes made to these perks ever and 3-gens would still be possible as they are now. Killers can decide they want to 3-gen and make the game miserable for Survivors with or without those two perks
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367667#Comment_3367667
Easiest way is probably to add a way to the game that lets Survivors forcefully end a 3-gen. Such as opening the exit gates, but at a much slower rate, and with aura reveal + notification if only 3 generators are left. Something like 3 minutes+ without interruption to open a gate. That would force the Killer away from the 3-gen, at least temporarily, and allow progress. Depending on how close the 3-gen is to the gates is though this may not work.
Realistically there are only three ways to stop 3-gen situations:
- make it against the rules and start banning Killers going for it. This has the massive downside of the report system being awful and requiring a recording (or adding a replay system so the support staff can just check that)
- make them impossible by forcing generators to spawn far enough apart for it to not work anymore. This most likely requires an overhaul of most (or all) maps and/or map generation
- add a mechanic to the game that forces the Killer to leave the 3-gen. Such as being teleported away if they are in one area for too long (similar to how Survivors get AFK crows but with a forced teleport) or another way for Survivors to escape that is ideally only viable if the Killer refuses to leave a 3-gen
Nothing else works.
Some commonly suggested solutions and why they don't work:
- anything to do with perks: you should never just lose or risk being dragged into a 30+ minute game if you don't always run a specific perk
- Killer buffs: you could make an overpowered Killer that can mori after the first down so they don't "need" to go for 3-gens but they still could if they wanted to. The problem is that some Killer players apparently find it fun, but their fun comes at the cost of four other players. Just because there are better ways to get kills doesn't mean everyone will stop going for 3-gens. It's still going to be a miserable experience for four players even if it's not the optimal or even a good strategy
- "just don't get 3-genned": Killer can decide to 3-gen at the start of the game and there is nothing you can do about it as Survivor. There is nothing forcing the Killer to care about the other four generators. They just ignore them, you can work on them for a few minutes but then you are stuck in a 3-gen
- "just give up and let the Killer kill you": "just don't play the game" is a bad solution for obvious reasons
Realistically there are only three ways to stop 3-gen situations:I'll try for another possibility - Gen kick limit. Let's say the killer can kick each gen a max of 6 times, then never again.
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@NerfedFreddy said:
Make bloodlust exclusive trait of m1 killers, anti-loop killers don't need that, they are already strong and should rely on their powers instead of w-gaming
that's your buff
I'd vote you up a hundred times if I could. That's incredibly simple and elegant. You could even take it one step more where the weaker killers gain bloodlust faster.
To the OP @Skill_issue
So there are a couple of "problems" about game design
1: Variety - players want a variety of killers. Different designs, playstyles, etc. Balance and variety do not go together.
2: Map randomness - the more comp style players seem to hate it, but this is a core element of the game design. To create a variety of maps that feel different means that killers will have maps they are strong on, and maps they are weak on.
3: Add on nature - I think the whole concept of addons should be tossed and replaced, but its probably not going to be. Some killers play with the best addons, others try and play as if they can't use addons or only use certain ones. For some killers, addons change them substantially. Take Trapper - he's very weak without addons, but with top level addons, well, he's still not great, but he's definitely quite a bit stronger. When balancing killers do you do it assuming they are using addons or not? Do you try and strengthen a killer by boosting addons and making them stronger, but realize that some killers won't even touch them.
4: Player skill levels - The various MMR brackets play the game differently. Base to mid level nurses aren't a huge fear, top tier nurses can crush pretty much anything.
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I think you're post is asking hypotheticals, so I'll give my 'if I could redesign DbD".
Toss out addons, instead allow a variety of builds that killers can select which have pros and cons.
-Now that you don't have the question of if players are using addons or not you've taken a step toward balancing.
Toss out map offerings. If a certain killer is too strong or too weak on a certain map just have it never come up for that killer.
If a choice has to be made, balance toward the middle of MMR. Top tier comp style can create their own rules if they wish for weakening survivors if they are too strong.
-I think BHVR generally has the right idea with kill rates as a balance mechanism (probably the only other main factor is if survivors or killers just DC or give up against certain playstyles). While individual feedback can point to ideas, there are thousands of games happening at any one time (I'm really curious if they've ever released how many games of DbD get played). It's the full scope that has to be looked at.
For killers that have weaker kill rates, make general small changes.
-@NerfedFreddy bloodlust idea
-shrink terror radius
-at an extreme end, give or take away a perk slot
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@Madjura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367652#Comment_3367652
You shouldn't be forced to run a specific perk every game to not have your fun ruined by something like what OP described
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367655#Comment_3367655
Some strategies / ways of playing like dragging out the game by holding a 3-gen and refusing to leave are so unfun they need to be removed from the game. "Just die" can't be the solution
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367658#Comment_3367658
3-gens were always possible. Changes to Ruin / Pop Goes The Weasel did not make them possible. You could undo all (or some) changes made to these perks ever and 3-gens would still be possible as they are now. Killers can decide they want to 3-gen and make the game miserable for Survivors with or without those two perks
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367667#Comment_3367667
Easiest way is probably to add a way to the game that lets Survivors forcefully end a 3-gen. Such as opening the exit gates, but at a much slower rate, and with aura reveal + notification if only 3 generators are left. Something like 3 minutes+ without interruption to open a gate. That would force the Killer away from the 3-gen, at least temporarily, and allow progress. Depending on how close the 3-gen is to the gates is though this may not work.
Realistically there are only three ways to stop 3-gen situations:
- make it against the rules and start banning Killers going for it. This has the massive downside of the report system being awful and requiring a recording (or adding a replay system so the support staff can just check that)
- make them impossible by forcing generators to spawn far enough apart for it to not work anymore. This most likely requires an overhaul of most (or all) maps and/or map generation
- add a mechanic to the game that forces the Killer to leave the 3-gen. Such as being teleported away if they are in one area for too long (similar to how Survivors get AFK crows but with a forced teleport) or another way for Survivors to escape that is ideally only viable if the Killer refuses to leave a 3-gen
Nothing else works.
Some commonly suggested solutions and why they don't work:
- anything to do with perks: you should never just lose or risk being dragged into a 30+ minute game if you don't always run a specific perk
- Killer buffs: you could make an overpowered Killer that can mori after the first down so they don't "need" to go for 3-gens but they still could if they wanted to. The problem is that some Killer players apparently find it fun, but their fun comes at the cost of four other players. Just because there are better ways to get kills doesn't mean everyone will stop going for 3-gens. It's still going to be a miserable experience for four players even if it's not the optimal or even a good strategy
- "just don't get 3-genned": Killer can decide to 3-gen at the start of the game and there is nothing you can do about it as Survivor. There is nothing forcing the Killer to care about the other four generators. They just ignore them, you can work on them for a few minutes but then you are stuck in a 3-gen
- "just give up and let the Killer kill you": "just don't play the game" is a bad solution for obvious reasons
I'll throw out another possible solution: gen kick limit. Let's say the killer can kick each gen 6 times (or damage it via knight summons) and after that they can't touch it again. That would still allow the killer to defend a 3 gen, but would still mean they would have to chase/pressure survivors.
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In the average game where survivors play bad? No they’re fine.If both sides play perfectly the killer loses almost every time. You rely on survivor mistakes to win.Where's the line between survivors play perfectly and survivors play bad? Because your definition of average game shouldn't be bad, it should be 'average' or 'normal'.
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@cannonballB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368359#Comment_3368359
What I think is, the killer has the same right to fun as the survivor. Yes, sometimes it IS fun to have to run back and forth between gens. 3gens have always been fun to me. If I want to sweat, I 3gen. If I don't want to sweat, I don't. I 3gen instead of facecamping or tunneling.
What's even funnier to me is, every time a killer gets a strategy that BHVR has said is acceptable, people rail on it. Camping, tunneling, 3genning - these are all ways the killer can kill. These strategies are basically the only way you can win against high level survs now.
RE: personal opinions, you have to have a convincing argument to get people to agree with you. Is that not why you're posting? To get people to agree with you? I mean, you say this:
"Yeah, BHVR is saying they are cool with it. Others are saying you shouldn't be cool with it, here's why. "
So where's the "here's why" that's convincing?
RE: "The devs said it's ok" is absolutely a valid response. It's an explanation as to why they aren't "fixing" something they don't see as broken, nor do they see as "against the rules". Or as the person I quoted put it, "abusive". Something the devs have baked into the game isn't "abusive" and I take issue with such statements.
What I think is, the killer has the same right to fun as the survivor.Sure, both sides should have be having fun.
What's even funnier to me is, every time a killer gets a strategy that BHVR has said is acceptable, people rail on it.I mean dead hard, SWF, safe loops, god pallets, it's not exactly unique.
RE: personal opinions, you have to have a convincing argument to get people to agree with you. Is that not why you're posting? To get people to agree with you? I mean, you say this:"Yeah, BHVR is saying they are cool with it. Others are saying you shouldn't be cool with it, here's why. "So where's the "here's why" that's convincing?So the here's why of personal opinion is just 'fun'/'not fun'. It's pretty hard to explain why something is or is not enjoyable, but I'll give it a go:
1: Games should have a predictable time limit. When I start up a game I want a generally rough idea of how long I'll be playing. If I think the game is going to last between 5 and 15 minutes, and it goes 40, I'm going to be upset. Games should have predictable time frames, frequently we have other things to do (or just would rather play a variety of games than one long one)
2: It goes against the concept of the game. DbD plays as a tense race with the survivors trying to complete their objectives before getting caught and eliminated. With a theme of horror movies that tension is important. 3 genning doesn't carry that same emotional weight. It's attack, retreat, attack, retreat, etc. There's no real fear of the killer, just annoyance.
3: It's perk dependent. This is kind of like camping, there are perks to fight it, but being you have no idea who you are going to hit, taking a perk to bust a strategy is a waste in other games. So it's a strategy that feels like you beat it or not based upon choices made before the game begins.
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@cannonballB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368302#Comment_3368302
But you haven't given a convincing argument as to why they should get rid of it other than "I don't like being 3-genned. It makes games 45 minutes".
But what if I, as killer, love those kinds of games because I'm constantly engaged trying to keep you little snots off the gens? You say 10 minutes is reasonable. I disagree with your definition of "reasonable".
But what if I, as killer, love those kinds of games because I'm constantly engaged trying to keep you little snots off the gens?Do you?
But yes, it's called personal opinion. People will disagree on what the ideal length of a game should be. There is no "convincing argument" that exists. Instead players express their opinions about what they do and don't like.
If you want to play a long 40 minute game and you think it should be part of the game, go ahead and say that. But don't fall back on the redundant 'the devs said it was okay'.
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I think the 3 gen strategy as whole should be tackled: there should be a limit to how many times a killer can kick each each gen (or damage it via a knight). Whatever might happen in a reasonable 10 minute game, add one to that, and that's your cap. This way killers could still have a 3 gen with the possibility of a come back after 4 gens are done, but can't use it is as there absolute strategy.
@cannonballB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368210#Comment_3368210
The devs have said 3-genning is a valid strategy. Killers have every right to try and kill you, since, you know, that's their job and all. And 3-genning is one (very good) way to do that. What people don't seem to get is, the killer isn't there to make your game last less than 45 minutes. He has no responsibility to make your game shorter.
I only play solo survivor. I've had many a 3gen used against me. Some I won, some I lost, but every time the game was absolutely fair. Just because you don't like a strategy doesn't mean the strategy is abuse.
You and others are really just arguing definitions.
Yeah, BHVR is saying they are cool with it. Others are saying you shouldn't be cool with it, here's why. We know what BHVR is saying and we're saying it makes for a really bad game and they should do something to stop it.
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@VoidOfMe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367543#Comment_3367543
not really, I was clear about what I said, you didn't want to understand it
1: she has to engage in loop or down you at the generator, she'll have to hook or slug you (hey, isn't that a game strategy?) which you'll die either way.
I was clearly talking about a match that's going on for TOO LONG.
If you don't want to stay in that match, there's nothing the killer can do you keep you there, IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE.
not really, I was clear about what I said, you didn't want to understand itI still don't but I'm open to learning, but I feel like you're in the wrong thread.
OP, as a skull merchant, complains about people leaving the game and not fighting against the 3 gen.
Multiple people say they don't want to be in 40 minute matches and go ahead and die, explaining to the OP they share the desire to not get stuck into long 3 gen games.
You then post:
I find it funny that people complain about 40 minutes match when a survivor match ends right when he dies on hookso instead of keeping running and hiding for 40 minutes in a match just go for the generator, if the merchant comes after you, loop her, if she doesn't, then just die trying to do the generator...It's not only the merchant that holds your matches for 40 minutes, you hold your match for 40 minutes too.Many people have already said they take the die option rather than play out a 40 minute match. It's not 'I got stuck in a 40 minute match, that sucks' it's 'I don't want to get stuck in a 40 minute match so I let her kill me, that sucks'
Do you not understand why people would complain about that as a game design?
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The nature of the game is that time doesn't hurt the killer as much as it hurts the survivors. Survivors run out of resources, killers don't.
I need to play a lot more matches before I'd suggest any changes, but off the few games I've played I feel like hacking the drones should have more of an impact before she can redeploy.
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@VoidOfMe said:
I find it funny that people complain about 40 minutes match when a survivor match ends right when he dies on hook
so instead of keeping running and hiding for 40 minutes in a match just go for the generator, if the merchant comes after you, loop her, if she doesn't, then just die trying to do the generator...
It's not only the merchant that holds your matches for 40 minutes, you hold your match for 40 minutes too.
1: This assumes she engages in the loop. Doesn't work the same if you go, she chases, retreats, kicks, repeat. Sure as survivors you can win via slowly making progress, but what people are saying is its just not worth the time. Especially in soloQ were its a lot harder to coordinate breaking the 3 gen.
2: Go to gen, die. Yeah, that's the giving up people are talking about.
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I just had a match against skull merchant that I was happy to give up after 20 minutes. There was a clear line on the map from the game start that she wasn't going to pass. At one point we got one of the 3 gens at about 50%, but that was as close as we got. We were pretty organized for a soloQ - we tried different strategies, such as taking out the drones, ignoring them, etc. If we'd been a SWF maybe, we wasted a lot more time trying to find each other for heals than a SWF would have and it was never clear which of the gens we were attacking.
I stuck around until one of the other survivors gave up, I wasn't going to abandon my team as long as they were willing to play, but once one did I was happy to get out of the game.
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When I play survivor on this map I blast the generators that make a 3 gen possible. Most people don't think about DBD in this way. They think : blasting any old generator is fine.Do me a favor and think for a moment. Have you thought about Abattoir as much as I have? Can you recall all of the possible 3 gen locations by memory? Did you know where all the pallets spawns were before I mentioned them? My guess is : probably not.At a guess I suspect that 95% of the people I play against on Abattoir don't have the same knowledge of the map that I do.Here's the problem: the thing that you are using as evidence, the intense deep dive into the map and how to play it, makes you an outlier. You're right, I haven't thought about the map as much as you (you just typed 1129 words to a simple 17 word question), I have very little opinion on map balance, but the vast majority of the player base doesn't think about the maps that way either.
The key words you typed were:
Most people don't think about DbD this way. It's those most people that the game is, and has to be, balanced around. -
I have won 20/21 games on Rancid Abattoir with one tie.Okay, then how is that map fair? Because that doesn't sound 'fair', that sounds massively killer sided.
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I feel like there is misconception in the OP and some of the posters about getting 8 hooks before any eliminations. As the OP states
Even assuming perfect conditions for the killer, a survivor team that splits up on gens against a killer that tries to 12-hook then, even with 20 second chases every time, the math still favors survivors.Yeah, that's the way the game is designed. With 4 survivors alive they should have an advantage over the killer if players are of roughly equal skill. The advantage tilts to the killer when they get an elimination. The math is designed so that killers should be getting an elimination before everyone is on death hook. The only way to change that would be to make it so DbD wasn't an elimination game (or put another way, if the game was designed so that killers had a 50/50 chance to win via 12 hook, a killer that tunneled would be winning 100% of the time).
12 hooks requires either effort, luck, player mismatch, or an opposing team really protecting their death hook teammates. Most of the games I 12 hook its because I'm so much stronger than those I matched up against that I'm actively avoiding certain survivors to give them a chance.
I also feel like tunneling and getting everyone to death hook before an elimination are totally different discussions. If the 3rd or 4th hook in a game is an elimination, sure, tunneling, but the 6th or 7th? Even if you are just chasing survivors as you find them its highly unlikely you are going to get to 8 hooks with 4 survivors still in the game.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362376#Comment_3362376
Wreckers Yard is the fair map. It is small, has no BS building and a fair number of pallets although they are strong pallets. Generally speaking if a map is 9000m² or smaller it has the potential to be fair.
Lest we all forget that one of the most fair maps ever in the game was Demo's map. It was small and had mostly mindgamable pallets.
Coal tower is not fair because it is too easy to jump from one tile to the next without actually using resources. Iron Works of Misery often has the same problem. I played a game on IWoM tonight and if I had not brought Bamboozle there would have been a near infinite loop where a window from one gym linked to another.
After Wreckers yard the next most fair map is probably Father Campbell's Chapel. What do both of the fair maps have in common? Small size and you can make a 3 gen in numerous places.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362403#Comment_3362403
-"Shelter woods is really killer sided"
Maybe for Nurse and Blight pre-patch. Overall this map was broken for most M1 killers before they added the completely ridiculous and broken "camp" building.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366816#Comment_3366816
-"corn maps (all variants): low visibility paired with safe pallets and certain buildings that are too much safe"
This is not true. Rancid Abattoir is the only fair corn map. It's ~8700m² and I win something like 97% of games on this map.
The worst corn map in my opinion is Torment Creek which is ~10750m². I lose something like 95% of games on this map. I only win if survivors play it real dumb and let me three gen on the strong side of the map.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362367#Comment_3362367
"Most of the MacMillan and Autohaven maps are Killer-sided I feel, besides Gas Heaven and Groaning Storehouse."
Groaning Storehouse has some of the strongest 3 gen potential of any map in the game. Also you can almost always hook someone in the middle of a three gen or on the "wing" edges of a map and soft camp someone from 30m away. This is one of the easiest maps to win if you play like I do.
Ironworks is "mostly" fair but way too big. Every other map in the MME tileset is in the "not fair" list. Any map in the 3 gen or gtfo list is automatically thrown in the the broken pile. Therefore RPD, Azarov's and suffocation pit are broken.
Wretched shop is "borderline" in terms of fair. It's too big and needs to lose some area and then maybe I would put it in the fair category. It's not omg I hate this map but it's not an easy win.
"RPD is probably Killer-sided but the map is just miserable, Midwich is Killer-sided."
Any map in the 3 gen or gtfo list is automatically thrown in the the broken pile. Therefore RPD, Azarov's and suffocation pit are all broken.
Let's talk about something very briefly.... Midwich is killer sided but it's not "garden of joy" level killer sided.
-"I think Lery's is Killer-sided as well, though perhaps Killer-leaning would be more accurate. I think the same of The Game, depending on the Killer."
Lery's favors survivors unless you are playing Ghostface, scratched Mirror MM or Hag. Those killers make this map miserable for survivors. Lerys is way too big and has far too many vaults for it to be fair.
This is not true. Rancid Abattoir is the only fair corn map. It's ~8700m² and I win something like 97% of games on this map.The worst corn map in my opinion is Torment Creek which is ~10750m². I lose something like 95% of games on this map. I only win if survivors play it real dumb and let me three gen on the strong side of the map.You're probably being sarcastic on the numbers here, but is the premise a map is fair if you have an overwhelming win percentage on it?
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I think BHVR has said in past posts that 3 genning is fine, but the killer never trying to leave the area can be seen as holding the game hostage. I don't think there is a way they could actually enforce that, but I think they've posted something along those lines in regards to videos of knights locking down a 3 gen for an hour.
@ButterFlee13 said:
Survivor should realize that there is more than second chance perks.
Potential Energy, Toolboxes, Hyperfocus.
The problem with this is that the game is basically decided by loadout.
Hit a killer who runs to a 3 gen immediately? Oh, you have potential energy and recognize it, not a problem. Oh, you didn't bring those things because you had no way of knowing that was what you were going to hit? So, you want to just sacrifice now or play for 40 minutes?
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I think it really depends on what you mean by new mode. If we're talking a game which is even moderately different, not going to happen. Way too much to code and balance to make it even possible. And the balance issues would be an ongoing thing, with each new character/perks they would have two game types to consider.
It would also be a massive risk as @KingFieldShipper points out. It would far exceed the work of a chapter and people probably wouldn't even like it.
If we were to see a new mode I suspect they'd just move onto DbD 2 so they could actually design the code around multiple types of games.
If you are talking about keeping the base game pretty much the same with just some minor tweaks tweaks, I can see that as possible. @SMitchell8 gives a few proposals.
If we're just dreaming here, I'd like something with random perks/items/addons. Either random perks at startup or gaining them over the course of the game. I suspect that mode would be hated by the community though because its basically an RNG fest.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366679#Comment_3366679
I'm not the one who keeps bumping this thread; y'all are. Why are you so desperate to hold onto one stupid perk? The Killer perk meta gets nerfed practically at the drop of a hat, but when a Survivor perk that's been in the game almost as long as Ruin has is called into question, it's too much?
Why are you so desperate to hold onto one stupid perk?There's two possibilities:
1: Let's say DH is the strongest perk in the game for survivors. Killers are still winning. If in fact the perk is that strong taking it away without massive other changes and the game becomes lopsided.
2: Let's say DH is no stronger than other exhaustion perks. It can create distance just like Sprint Burst and Lithe. It gets more, but comes with a risk. It however actually gives survivors something to do. Instead of just holding W for as long as possible, it creates a mind game between survivor and killer.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365667#Comment_3365667
The strawman fallacy is attacking an argument that hasn't been made.
Correct. So now please show me where I said comp or otz are not relevant? I said the results of those matches are irrelevant and gave reasons why, not comp or otz in general.
In every single post of mine I've talked about the videos. I even specifically referred to the OP. You're jumping in the middle and just presuming that people are arguing with you.
That's why the strawman claim is silly.
If you want to do a study of comp videos or Otz videos and make an argument off of that, go right ahead.
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The squeaky wheels gets the grease. People who don't like what's going on are going to be the one's complaining.
As @Laluzi said, it's only hypocrisy if you presume it's the same people. The community is not a monolith and the loudest voices at anyone time are not representative of what is good/bad. It's why discussion boards like this are great for talking out pros and cons of the game, but not a good place to look for overall feelings.
I don't mind the concept of strategic killers that play by staking out a portion of the map, but there needs to be some change in the mechanics that prevents games from extending into the 20+ minute mark.
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The strawman fallacy is attacking an argument that hasn't been made.
The OP posted the comp videos. The OP then posted an Otz video. That's literally the evidence underlying the argument. People on the other side pointed out why that evidence didn't back up the claim.
That's the opposite of a strawman.
The Oni videos are bad evidence because the Oni just powers through the DHs and still wins. If you don't even try and bait a DH its not evidence one way or the other on whether DH can be baited. It also shows that eating the DH is an acceptable strategy, especially with a killer like Oni.
And on top of that, 4 DH's were pulled off. A minimum of 6 were possible. That's a 66% usage/success rate among top players with a straightforward killer. Doesn't seem like a problem.
The Otz video is bad evidence because Otz clearly misplays it. It's also cherry picking because I've watched plenty of videos were he baits out DH easily.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365125#Comment_3365125
In comp dbd survivors get massively nerfed. In the CC the rules say killer is restricted on add-on rarity and survivors are not only restricted in the same way but can't bring duplicated perks or items. So they massively nerf survivor and then players are using that the survivors lost the games as some counterpoint.
Otz getting a 2k is also irrelevant. Matchmaking in this game is capped at 1600 so players above this will always be viewed at 1600 for matchmaking purposes. The entire post is about baiting DH out and players just shift the goalposts.
How does players winning games matter in the context of DH being easy to bait out? The answer is that it isn't but players are grasping at anything to counter the perk being a problem. If x is a problem then y is the solution unless y is also a problem then it is z. Feels like a circular argument. If you are eating DH then bait it out. baiting out dh is easy you just need to get better. Top players are eating DH but they need to bait it.
If you don't think comp play is relevant to the discussion, don't bring up comp play.
If you don't think Otz is relevant, don't bring up Otz.
However these were the videos provided, people point out the problems with them, and then the anti-DH side wants to discuss anything but those videos.
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This thread is kind of hilarious. Even in the Otz video posted he gets a 2k and he clearly makes a mistake thinking the Nancy was going to pull off a perfect DH.
I don't really have an opinion on the DH fight. I don't run it as a survivor and don't find it that annoying as a killer (more powerful than sprint burst, but riskier). And while single videos don't prove anything, if you believe DH needs nerfed and in the videos you post the killer wins, yeah people are going to point out that you are undercutting your own argument.