crogers271
crogers271
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393069#Comment_3393069
I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds. Then you only deal with one health state.
Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked, or it should have to be EARNED in a way that DISCOURAGES tunneling, and actively encourages healthy gameplay from both sides.
My general proposal is to keep dead hard as is, but it works like mettle of man, so no deep wound shenanigans. Then make it so dead hard is not active, then if you are injured for 30 seconds, it activates and lets you use it. Once you heal, or are downed, it deactivates. This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.
I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds.Okay, go ahead.
This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.I didn't realize it was you in both posts, you don't want to talk nurse or blight, so I'll point out that with your idea if a survivor really does a great job of looping, he gets to stomp the killer even harder. If I loop the killer for 30 seconds, I basically now get to loop the killer for an additional 30 seconds. On the other hand if I'm only capable of looping the killer for 20 seconds, no bonus. It rewards the good while penalizing the bad, which is not a good concept for a perk.
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Nurse and blight butcher your proposed dead hard idea (and they are the killers the perk is needed against the most), plus you are basically making it a perk for people who are already great loopers to have an extra advantage.
This makes a far away boon simply too strong and basically will make games with 3 gens last even longer, because survivors can basically infinite heal forever.I think what BHVR is trying to do is clear - you need to weaken up the survivors as killer before the 3 gen. If there are four survivors with CoH active and the killer is on a 3 gen, killer loses. Given the regression perks have been nerfed killers won't be able to hold the 3 gen like they used to, so survivors can rather quickly deal with it.
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Lots of people seem to be going with this line of reasoning and I just don't get it.
Why aren't you playing this way in the game right now? You could have a 100% certainty that someone has DH because you hit it on the first chase. You could absolutely deny it for future chases by just proxy camping the hook and hitting them when they come off.
If you're going to camp, okay, but I don't see why the possibility of new DH makes that more likely than old DH.
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As a survivor, I haven't seen any noticeable change. If you are just talking about the first survivor down, maybe one in five games.
I’ve started slugging anybody who tries to give up early on as a way to discourage itI doubt that will work. If you've given up on the game it's not like you're staring at the screen, you've either alt-tabbed or are doing something else. If anything you're just keeping yourself in the game longer than necessary.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393003#Comment_3393003
Against any semi-competent team, you have to. But against teams you go against, I probably could use no perks, play M1 killer with no ability and win just purely on-game sense. Yet this situation happens very rarely ;)
But hey, I'm sure you're a genius and found a way to consistently 4k without gen regression perks in high MMR. Lmao.
But hey, I'm sure you're a genius and found a way to consistently 4k without gen regression perks in high MMR.You shouldn't be able to consistently 4k at high MMR - or any MMR for that matter.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392921#Comment_3392921
Mandy has answered this already I think:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392240#Comment_3392240
(though my tired brain can’t figure out front this wording which is the intended way..)
Single use attempt. BHVR has stated multiple times their original wording was incorrect.
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@onryowave said:
why would i NOT tunnel with this new Dead Hard? if i don't tunnel, you get away and you have a third health state. if i tunnel you off the hook, your built in BT gives you Deep Wounds, you can't DH and i can hook you again and avoid you healing up and running around with three health states.
this game was NEVER designed three health states, it is baffling that BHVR is so adamant on forcing 3 health states down our throats no matter how demonstrably bad it is for the game. tunneling is going to explode.
But how is that different from the game right now?
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Okay, enjoy.
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If don't want to run them, don't run them. There are lots of weak perks.
Ruin has its uses. Hex builds benefit from it, but also nice with a fast killer were you are chasing survivors off gens constantly for them to start regressing. Not S tier, but gets value.
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If you never allowed a survivor to mend, survivors could get off 12 dead hards, though they hypothetically could get infinite via body blocks/getting away and mending.
The max is now 8 and you don't have to worry about any dead hards from the beginning.
Substantial nerf.
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I suspect it works like it does now. If you hit them off the hook they go into deep wound. They can't use DH while in deep wound. If they manage to get away and mend, they could then use DH.
Nothing is different there other than that the DH still only has one possible use.
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@MikeStev said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392507#Comment_3392507
not all of them are new... but I remember behavior once releasing data the most used perk: number 1: self-care.
As mentioned, its extremely common on Asian servers. I've never played there, but this is my understanding on why:
Killers are expected to tunnel. There is no etiquette that it is not appropriate. So if you get unhooked you know the killer is coming for you, so the obvious course of action is to book it away from the gens, likely toward a dead zone. Your team likely won't follow because they think they are safe smashing out gens. Thus if you get to the dead zone and you've eluded the killer, now you self care. You don't bring a medkit because you likely brought a toolbox or flashlight to either speed up the gens or slow down the killer more directly.
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The larger number to PR can be more situationally useful. At 15% if you a gen right before survivors finish, they are likely to jump right back on and get it done before the killer gets there. 25% gives the killer time to get their and stop the gen from being finished at all.
You have less chances for a bigger payoff.
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I think you are confusing the numbers.
Self-care heals at a base of 35%, a 65% penalty. ~45 seconds
Med-kits heal at a base of 67%, 33% penalty. ~24 seconds
Lots of survivors run self-care, but its a really bad perk to have (passable with botany knowledge),
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Agree massive step in the right direction from the original.
Dead Hard - I think this is overcomplicating things. Why not just have it - Dead Hard is not available until you have at least one hook state?
I get the idea of what is happening with DH. Early game DHs can really set the killer back before he has pressure, that's a good change. The current wording creates a max of two uses. Even with the above suggested change that's still what would happen most of the time, but creates the possibility of a survivor getting away and recharging DH when exhaustion wears off. That's the kind of advantage survivors sometimes need later in the game once the killer has a ton of pressure.
But a great idea to limit it's early game use and to not attach it to unhooks as that is way too hard for soloQ and easy for SWFs.
Circle of Healing - The boost was the obvious thing needed to make the perk potentially viable.
Pain Res - Creates an interesting scenario. There are lots of games where I'm on a generator where I know the killer is taking the survivor to a hook. Sometimes I finish the gen right before the hook (killer wasted a lot of time), sometimes the killer catches me right before the finish. This change amplifies that effect.
I think that is a good game design, but others might disagree on that as the game can swing based off a couple of seconds.
Healing Revert - Had to happen. If for no other reason you shouldn't be changing base kit and meta perks at the same time. You nerfed the major killer and survivor perks (plus a powerful survivor addon) - throwing in such a massive basekit change is not the right time for trying something like that out.
Not to mention is that it was having lots of (potentially) unintended side effects on slugging and self care.
Med-kits - When the PTB was first announced I wasn't sure about this. I almost never run top level items/addons. Since it was announced I've been burning through my purple and green medkits. Yeah, I see the complaint, they give such a massive advantage to have.
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People are passionate about the game. When someone says (BHVR or others) 'hey, we should make these changes' people overreact.
Also, as some have mentioned, click bait titles get a lot more responses than things trying to do a fair analysis.
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My problem isn't pain res, it's pain res stacked with other gen slow down perks. They could have kept all slow down perks as they were (except eruption), maybe even buffed some of them, but if they limited killers to one I think it would have been fine.
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I think the concept is more theme than balance. It would just be silly to have an absolutely untouchable survivor, kind of like a ghost.
I'm not sure if that is anymore silly than people having a hooked shoved through their body then being healed by magic hands, but it would feel strange.
It also wouldn't prevent tunneling, just hard tunneling. If you see two survivors you can still go after the one closer to death hook, you just can't chase them immediately after the hook.
If it ends when a person does a conspicuous action I doubt it would hurt the balance that much for soloQ. A survivor not doing anything is a win for the killer.
The problem would be with SWFs where the untouchable survivor could follow the killer around and relay what is happening. That could be addressed by cutting the unhooked person's speed in half.
I think there are a lot of better ways to deal with tunneling though then going to this extreme.
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There are only two ways to do this
1: Make all the maps very big, which would be overall a buff for survivors
2: Give the survivors and killers designated starting zones on each map, which would be boring
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The logic here is weird.
The game right now is popular. If your argument is that the game is currently broken, then it's a broken game that people like and have liked for a long time.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390883#Comment_3390883
Fun fact, Dead Hard being "just press a button" is not propaganda, it's factual, just as "Sprint Burst is a button away" or "Lithe is a window or pallet away" are factual, ignoring the server/latency problems, Dead Hard is always going to be a button press away from activating once you are injured, whether you succeed in triggering it or not
On a different note, successfully triggering Dead Hard is not skill-based, it's timing-based, it does not take skill to press a button when you think the killer will hit you, it does, however, require good timing and knowledge of what your opponent will do
Learn what words mean, because you might find that they mean something completely different to what you think they mean
On a different note, successfully triggering Dead Hard is not skill-based, it's timing-based, it does not take skill to press a button when you think the killer will hit you, it does, however, require good timing and knowledge of what your opponent will doLearn what words mean, because you might find that they mean something completely different to what you think they meanI was going to call this insulting and pedantic, but I think it's just wrong. The ability to time something correctly is a demonstration of skill. You're calling for someone to educate themselves about words, but you're the one who is incorrect.
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Feng Min ability - Wardrobe, allows Fend to change costumes by interacting with a chest while the game is ongoing.
BHVR, the money will just roll in!
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To the OP, as you said, it will never happen. For something like that to occur I think the game would have needed a totally different design philosophy.
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If by about 30 seconds into a match no other survivor has touched a gen or set up a boon, we've wasted way too much of the early game advantage.
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Not an I'm screwed, but this isn't going to be fun, is hearing Leatherface's chainsaw. Too much of a risk that its just going to be a camper, and either you are the one camped or you're just sitting on gens for a couple minutes.
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First of all, it's PTB and I am pretty sure some changes will be reverted since so many people online including influencers are talking how bad it is.Creator: If you do this, the game will die.
BHVR: Okay, we won't do that.
That kind of sounds like what community engagement is supposed to be.
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@MeanieDeeny said:
I am seeking advice from experienced killers to indeed "git gud." Well, better.
I have under 4k kills and I've been playing killer maybe for 8 months or so. I truly don't know if this is good or average or low on the DBD scale..but the survs I face feel like very good, experienced (mostly) SWFs.
I was a Trapper main, but the teams started being too difficult with his current setup and so I switched to maining Plague months ago. She brings me more success, and I just love her.. but my teams are so good. It gets very stressful...
So I had a couple questions I hope maybe people can weigh in on...
-Is it pointless to use corrupt when using lethal?
I'm very sad to see scourge getting a change, as I typically run it w jolt...most good killers at this point, just say to tunnel..or camp...I don't like having to rely on this, I want to play...and have some kind of fun doing so...
I very much struggle at Ormond w Plague, for whatever reason, i've praticed on bots and for some reason in real matches, the entity brings me there almost every match (if survivors dont)..I have a hard time outplaying survivors there, because the map is just so big...any good tips for being able to have a successful Plague match there..without losing 3 gens during first chase? sigh it's very frustrating.
Thanks ahead of time for anyone who can provide positive tips or feedback!
I was a Trapper main, but the teams started being too difficult with his current setup and so I switched to maining Plague months ago. She brings me more success, and I just love her.. but my teams are so good. It gets very stressful...Not really advice, but it actually sounds like MMR is working for you. You're winning until it takes you you reach a level where you really have to push yourself against the survivors. That's the inevitable result of maximizing your play is it eventually matches you with people doing the same.
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@MrPsych said:
My big beef with the incoming update is that the devs have not shown they know their own game very well. There are still many interrogation marks remaining the status of healing perks, like these...
- How you gonna use Botany Knowledge if medkits all have enough charges?
- Is it really gonna take 24 seconds to recover from the dying state, thus facilitating slugging and making recovery from slugging harder?
- Medkits are really boring as hell now, do they? They all have same amount of charges, with only progressively increasing heal bonuses. Finding a purple medkit in a trial was great because of its high charges amount and fast healing speed, now it barely beats the brown medkit in efficiency.
- Self Care is dead. If it's gonna take over a full minute to heal, go work on a generator instead.
- You guys remember Mangled is a status effect that exists, correct? Because these new heal times sure would make one believe they forgot. Killers ran Sloppy Butcher before because it offered some slowdown to get the edge as killer, but having one update suddenly make heals 10 seconds longer will just make every killer equip SB because it'll be an obvious perk to pick for an easy game.
The aim of the update is to break the stale 3-gen meta and while it likely will succeed in that regard, I feel like the devs changed numbers around without taking the time to see if everything make sense in the big picture. The PTB showed an alarming high amount of oversights that lead me to think the people at the helm of the ship don't know what they're doing and it's very worrying. Instead of fixing all of these oversights, they decided to further nerf a killer that didn't need nerfs (Billy) and adjust random perks and addons just because they had a low pick rate in ways that will likely not change anything. Overzealous is the one change I like, the rest is just meh or garbage. Call of Brine is no longer worth using in any way with such a minuscule gen regression, just use Surveillance instead. Overcharge change is okay, but I fail to see why they lowered the penalty for missing the skill check. Pain Resonance didn't need any changes except maybe to the numbers, the perk was fine as is.
All I want is actual evidence the developers do play their own game because right now, I ain't seeing it.
use Botany Knowledge if medkits all have enough charges?With addons, which people currently do in the game as is.
Is it really gonna take 24 seconds to recover from the dying state, thus facilitating slugging and making recovery from slugging harder?Quite a bit longer than that.
Medkits are really boring as hell now, do they?I think the medkit change is good, or at least in the right direction. Purples + addons are crazy powerful.
But they do need quite a bit more variety.
Self Care is dead. If it's gonna take over a full minute to heal, go work on a generator instead.It's been dead for awhile, it's now buried under a mountain.
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I'm going to take a more positive stance than some people here.
If I was BHVR dev and I saw an angry post 'I've played for thousands of hours, but I'm done and leaving the game' I'd take the long term as a win.
Everything in life gets boring. There aren't a lot of games, or activities of any type, that can keep a large group of people interested for thousands, or even hundreds, of hours.
Veterans trickling away is inevitable. What they have to be concerned about is new players sticking around to become veterans.
If the standard is that people play for hundreds or thousands of hours before leaving the game I'm sure BHVR is thrilled with the game's future.
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It's a massive nerf. For those who wanted it mostly out of the game I think they got their wish.
I could see a build that runs it. Deadhard, We'll Make It, Deliverance - take no risks until the first unhook, that gives you a DH, plus a 2nd after the deliverance. If you're going for unhooks constantly We'll Make It can be useful with new healing speeds.
As for the perk itself to keep it viable it should have had one of three additional elements
Either:
No exhaustion, tokens for use, 30 second cool down
Exhaustion occurs on use, but only deactivates on success
Longer speed buff on success
A guaranteed sprint burst or lithe seem like vastly superior perks to one that the survivor might not even be able to access and even then might not pull off successfully.
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I'm sorry, we're all over here arguing about the upcoming patch. Please reserve your critiques of basic game design for about a month from now.
In all seriousness, I generally agree camping is a problem, but I doubt you could get rid of hooks. There's an array of things you could do to punish camping hooks, but an elimination game requires an elimination mechanism.
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The best argument for still bringing healing perks in this thread is that its essential against 1 out of the 31 killers. No one will be making builds like that unless they know the killer they are hitting (or are literally at an MMR level where they are expecting one of the big 3 in every game).
There's also a huge problem with a healer focused build not getting mentioned. If I run a gen rush build, and a teammate runs a gen rush build, great. If I run a healing build, and a teammate runs a healing build, we've hurt each other as we're both going to want the same thing (in this case, unhooks).
And if we're talking 1 out 31 killers, plague makes healer builds totally useless anyway.
I guess we'll see whether SWFs think it is worth their time to run a dedicated healer, but that's the only circumstance I can think of where it will be a good strategic option.
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If its at the start of the game sometimes I give them a whack, but usually I move on. If I'm playing Myers I don't use my powers on them.
If the AFK happens later in the game I knock them down like normal.
If there is a player who never plays the match (AFK from start) I try to treat the same as I do a DC, I just let the survivors do the gens and leave, maybe get a couple of hooks in, but otherwise I won't eliminate any survivors.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384401#Comment_3384401
efficient genrushing ia ez as possible even more with newer perks...even bad looping with predrops and windows of opportunity and holding w gives ample time and at the end of it all 3 people on gens 1 in chase is ez mode...killer is a lot harder u have to juggle time more efficiently
do u listen to music while playing killer?
do u listen to music while playing killer?I've taken my headphones off a lot when playing killer.
Have played podcasts.
Had conversations with another person while mostly looking away from the screen.
Got up from the keyboard and went to let the dogs outside.
Sure, there are teams that will absolutely crush me if I'm not 100% focused on the game, but not something I run into frequently.
Would never try that as survivor, but yeah, I am a soloQ.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384432#Comment_3384432
And then killers run Spirit with Jolt and players find out you need to still heal if you plan on winning games
@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384431#Comment_3384431
So how do you plan on winning games vs killers that get easy first hits?
Let's lay out a few basics.
If healing took 60 seconds no one should ever heal. If it took 3 seconds everyone should always heal.
The design goal should be to introduce elements that players have to think about: is this the right idea? On some elements they've made a bad design - opening chests is pretty much always a bad idea if you are just 100% committed to escaping.
Altruistic healing is in a pretty good place. 16 seconds (32 seconds between the survivors) is a worthwhile choice - is that additional health state going to buy you more chase time than you spent healing + the risk that the healing gets interrupted by the killer.
24 seconds is a big change. The circumstances were healing is now the right tactical move have dropped quite a bit. Not only are you wasting quite a bit of time that could be on gens, the 8 extra seconds increase the chances the killer gets to you before the heal finishes.
So what do you do? Try and do gens even faster. Load up on resilience. Take Off the Record or Decisive Strike. Don't even think about healing outside resets or a survivor is running a dedicated healer build (never try for a risky heal).
What probably happens is a large portion of the player base plays the same, killers at mid and lower MMR see a kill rate boost, killers have massive complaints when the next balance patch happens.
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@Pulsar said:
The healing nerfs ENCOURAGE Survivors to not bother and stick to gens.
Most players aren't comfortable doing that. Casual Survivor players are going to be absolutely massacred by the vast majority of Killers while top-level teams are going to slam gens even more efficiently.
If these changes go through, I'd expect a fair amount of Killer nerfs in the following patches due to a sky-high Kill Rate.
@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384343#Comment_3384343
i never understand how survivors aren't comfortable doing gens while injured (even in the worst case a suped up medkit is better than self caring in the corner/injured also means dead hard usage)
this patch doesn't affect efficient swf teams in the slightest
BHVR has to balance around all MMRs.
At lower to mid MMRs many killers don't have all the perks of the game unlocked and full gen rush slow down isn't a thing, the nerfs to their perks are not a huge deal.
Less experienced survivors over-commit to heals. That will probably still be true.
I agree with what Pulsar is saying - 8 seconds of extra healing is a massive nerf for those lower levels, even if higher levels just genrush more.
BHVR has to think about those, if kill rates increase they'll either have to walk back the healing or nerf killers across the board.
If you are a killer main, the thing you should be most worried about are game changes that make it easier for killers at low MMR without changing high MMR, because that's going to result in corrections that will hurt you to get the game back in line.
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@Eelanos said:
My biggest beef with this game and community is how they change the narrative depending on the side.
If killers stand still in the middle of a 3-gen or the exit gates to avoid losing, that's a strategy. But if a survivor stands still in a far away corner to apply pressure to the killer so they leave said 3-gen, suddenly that's taking the game hostage and the survivors being petty and not playing to win because they didn't throw themselves to the arms of the killer and they should be banned.
If a survivor gets slugged, that's a strategy, and allowing a survivor that has been slugged for 3 minutes to pick themselves up would be the single most gamebreaking thing this game would have ever concieved because sometimes slugging is unavoidable and therefore it should be allowed with no repercussions. But you can bet your life that if survivors could stunlock a killer to prevent them from moving, all of the sudden players shouldn't be able to restrain other players from moving and that should be bannable and no player should get to the point where they have to stand on a match when they can't do anything to progress their objective.
It is insane the amount of nonsense I've heard from this community to defend that they're playing like the older brother laughing at his younger brother because they were pretending they were playing but the controller was unplugged and the kid figured out and is now crying because he wants to play. Like the absolutely mindboggling "Real killers don't care about you having a good time. They will rip you apart and enjoy your screams while you ask for mercy." (this isn't word for word what they said to me, but it was something along the lines) which is straight up talking like a psychopath.
Even League Of Legends, which is my favourite example of terrible game design, doesn't allow you to be supressed permanently. People sitting at the fountain can still fight back, and they have a massive health regen to prevent the other team to just bullying the team from afar. Any supression in the game is limited in time, and abusive strategies like splitpushing keep getting nerfed when they become unbearable to handle while still being an option to provide pressure as the losing side.
Yet this game and this community can't seem to understand the difference between "Slugging is okay if you see someone trying to perform a flashlight save" and "Slugging for the 4k or slugging to win by default shouldn't be a thing" and immediately default to "BUT MUH WINRATE???? MUH POWER ROLE????".
But you can bet your life that if survivors could stunlock a killer to prevent them from moving, all of the sudden players shouldn't be able to restrain other players from moving and that should be bannable and no player should get to the point where they have to stand on a match when they can't do anything to progress their objective.Agree with this 100%. If BHVR doesn't want to change mechanics, I wish they'd just let everything go. You can slug and camp, but survivors can hide for 60 minutes if they want. Bring back the bugs that allowed survivors to stick killers in the air or out of the map. No one is responsible for anyone else's fun.
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4 survivors should not be so strong, and 3 survivors should not be so weak.One of the cruxs of the game is that 4 survivors = stronger than killer, but 3 survivors = weaker than killer. There is no 'even' playing field.
I think that is a necessary element of the game. If losing a survivor wasn't such a blow it wouldn't create the same teamwork incentive for survivors to protect the weakest member.
Once the survivors are knocked down to 3 they should be in gen rush mode (if they weren't already). Unless the game is a stomp, by that point there should be 1 to 2 gens left and they should focus on those. Even with the current setup, healing with 3 survivors is a waste unless
A) someone has healing perks to really speed up the time
B) the person being healed is great at loops and is going to take the killer on a long chase
C) the team is in full reset mode where gens have no progress and they are grouped up away from gens healing
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Agree with the OP. The difference between DbD and other games is that the community will actively defend the unfun elements. Every game has problems, and every game has things that people disagree on whether they are balanced or not, but DbD has lots of 'sure, it's not fun, but that's the game' like the game is some immutable thing that cannot be changed.
Examples from this thread:
There is nothing in the rules saying : you are not allowed to slug the survivors to death. I know most people didn't enjoy playing against me when I did this but I didn't do it to BM. I was playing the game "my way".If something is unfun, it should be changed.
I understand that many survivors don't find those sorts of games fun but it's a legitimate part of the game and by playing DBD you agree to deal with this if it happens.But why keep it in the game? If many people don't find it fun, why wouldn't you want BHVR to change it?
Do you think Survivor care about Killers fun when they do all 5 gens under 7 min or when they sent you to trash unbalanced map with sabotoolboxes, anti-slug build and Hook distance spawn offering?Why does one make the other okay? Yeah, everything you listed should be changed. 4 survivors who bring BNP, map offerings, and spread out the hook is not fun. Yeah, it's not actually against the rules, but we should want those rules the be changed.
The main point: no, killers and survivors in game should not care about each other's 'fun'. But if there are game elements that are clearly unfun/unbalanced BHVR should address them.
Is it possible to make every game that is played fun? No, that's not how any video game works. However, there are few clear elements on both sides that people seem to agree 'yeah, this is awful when the other side does X' that should be addressed.
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1 - DCs throw the whole game out of the metric. Yes, a suicide/AFK can throw the game off, but so can killer mercies.
2 - They have their internal stats on SWF (they say SWF helps by about 15%), but also they have stats on MMR at various levels.
3 - Okay?
4 - This doesn't really do with the rest of the post on whether kill rates are a good metric.
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The plague turns off healing completely so skully has a ways to go to catch up.
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The game has a lot to do with randomness and each match is not meant to be balanced. Example - medkits usually extremely powerful, useless against plague. Sometimes survivor builds, both perks and items, give great counters to killers, other times they end up being wasted.
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@pseudechis said:
I don't condone it I mean its unnecessary to play like that and having a bad game previously isn't really an excuse for doing so.
But let's play devil's advocate a little here, you could at least appreciate the slasher film nature of a game like that.
I mean its thematically on point and finding even the positive in that kind of experience can often just improve your outlook on games in general.
People talk about bullying a lot in this game but I gotta admit when playing survivor I'm more forgiving of the killer being a jerk for a couple of reasons.
Most killer jerk moves have a timer, 4 mins bleed out, 3min hook state and you die, leave game and move on. The game still progresses albeit much slower than normal. Because there is a timer that ends these things that is mostly outside the killers control so while things stall they don't tend to stall much beyond the timers.
It often fits the theme, a killer trying to murder me in the most brutal way kinda works because, for example I wouldn't expect leatherface as a character to be thinking of my feelings.
So I'm happy to forgive a lil more jerk on the killer side just because as someone who likes this game for the theme it strikes me as a thematically appropriate way for the killer to play if they choose.
(Not everyone will agree with me on this and they don't have to... but before you accuse me of supporting bad behaviour just take a moment and think about your outlook on the game and how much a game like this ruins your fun, what I'm saying is only a perception to help reduce your own frustration if this sort of thing upsets you... so give the point of view a try before you call me the devil).
Whereas jerk survivor behaviour, it typically involves mob mentality which is usually unpleasant, it's generally out of character thematically, but its harmless for the most part because as pointed out by others bobbing up and down can't hurt you or impact the game so why let it.
But when coordinated teams really commit it tends to stall the game completely, you can group chain locker stun and blind the killer for 30mins of 0 game progression if you like and I've seen it and I've played teams who've tried it.
So the most egregious offences killers tend to employ typically have a timer that's largely out of their control so you can leave game and move on, the same isn't necessarily true for the most egregious survivor offences.
Fortunately games like this tend to be rare, buts it's more likely you'll come across a killer hell bent on playing like this than a full group of survivors out to stun lock you... still I think it's a lil more forgivable from the killer because well I don't expect to be murdered politely.
But let's play devil's advocate a little here, you could at least appreciate the slasher film nature of a game like that.I mean its thematically on pointLet me play reverse devil's advocate on theme which I think is critically important to the game.
The thought of being chased by a knife wielding maniac is scary, so is the thought of getting cancer. The similarities end after scary. The first is fantastic and exciting, the latter realistic and depressing.
DbD and horror movies go for the first because they bring excitement and tension. Those are feelings people enjoy having. Part of the problem with the BM that killers can do is how much it kills theme. Facecamping isn't scary or tense, just boring - bleedouts aren't scary when the killer is standing over you, they are annoying.
One of the best pieces of advice I got early about enjoying DbD is be prepared to alt-tab/do something else if the opponent BMs. Left to bleed out, go get a sandwich, etc. While that improves the game from the player perspective, BHVR should be aghast at the concept. Horror games are supposed to have people on the edge of their seat, whenever there are elements where players are frequently like 'I got bored and did something else even though the game was still technically playing' is not a good sign.
It often fits the theme, a killer trying to murder me in the most brutal way kinda works because, for example I wouldn't expect leatherface as a character to be thinking of my feelings.Sure, but I'd like them to think/play like the killers of the movies. No horror movie would work if the killer got the first person, and then just sat there while the rest of the characters got away.
Whereas jerk survivor behaviour, it typically involves mob mentality which is usually unpleasant, it's generally out of character thematicallyIf we're just talking theme-wise I think this makes more sense. Frequently in horror movies the non-killers have their moment when they turn the tables / decide to take the fight to the killer. And while situations where they can do it infinitely should be stopped (and over time are much less common than they used to be), but a 'we're taking the fight to the killer' doesn't break the theme (as long as at least one survivor is getting gens done).
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I'm one of those who has also proposed this and it seems strange to me that the hook camping is a thing. Most of the responses
1: Survivors will camp near the hook
Okay, find and hit them- also as OP suggested hook timer keeps running if survivors nearby
2: Survivors will loop near the hook
Find and catch them - also as OP suggested hook timer keeps running if survivors nearby
3: Survivors will hold the survivor on hook permanently
This is a legitimate worry, but an easy solution, allow them to try and escape (stage 1) and have them still need to make skill check saves (stage 2) that they can fail
4: Reassurance exists
DLC perk, helps the team by giving them more time to do gens, but the person on the hook suffers
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All that said, there is a much simpler solution - just remove hook grabs. It wouldn't solve Bubba, but every other killer would really lose the ability to camp.
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@philward1953 said:
This is EXTREMELY telling in regards to the community's perception on tunneling on BOTH sides.
While Otz obviously isn't an "average" DBD player, I think he is still comparable enough to be an efficient look at the player base.
Also, for further reading, Otz says he played around 60 games, with different killers, mostly using non-meta perks/addons. He also set a rule that prevented him from hooking a survivor twice in a row, which fully prevents him from tunneling.
- His 80% win rate is mostly indicative of his own skill, but this does have some weight when it comes to showing how killers do not have to tunnel EVERY game, specifically right off the bat at 5/4 gens. It's not like killers get sh*t-stomped if they don't tunnel for every game. Sometimes, it is a skill issue, and not the fault of the survivors if a killer is put into a position where they must tunnel to get ahead. There is a time and a place for tunneling, but its not like you'll 100% loose a 4k if you don't (at least in scenarios where a killer isn't at extreme risk like at 5 gens remaining and such).
- The fact that survivors still told him he "tunneled" after he specifically did not hook the same person two hooks in a row is absurd, and is something a chunk survivor player base needs to wake up to. If a killer does not go for, down, and hook a survivor who just got unhooked immediately, they did NOT tunnel. That is not what tunneling is, and it's insane that people think that what Otz did in a lot of scenarios is tunneling. I see the accusations of tunneling as sheer copium.
- As for people who want to be tunneled, that's fine, as some people just want chase interaction. Considering how boring gens are, I think that's understandable. I also don't think there's anything wrong with a killer giving what that survivor wants, or not. When a survivor begs to be tunneled and enter chase, its up to the killer to say yes or no, but the survivor can't turn around an sh*t on the killer for "tunneling" if they then go down. It's their fault they were the killer's next target.
- I have no thoughts on a team trying to prevent a killer from tunneling. Makes sense. 👍️
I mainly take issue with the first two points, as they poke holes in very prevalent opinions the community has. By "take issue" I don't mean I take issue with Otz's conclusions, I think they are apt based on his experiences, I mean I take issue with the opinions of the community.
I was surprised by his win rate with the restrictions he played. That was more telling than anything in the video. There are people here who claim that streamers have an MMR exception, which if true explains things, but not something I had previously heard about. Otherwise it looks like the claims of how many super efficient squads there are at high MMR aren't true.
That survivors told him he still tunneled isn't surprising.
1: People have different definitions of tunneling (which he covers).
2: People only real have their own perceptions which are always biased. It's really easy to feel like you are being targeted even if not true.
3: When people lose, they get upset. Not just this game, but all multiplayer games.
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@Xane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356809#Comment_3356809
Millions is pushing it bud.
I'm not sure how you define player, but if you think it is someone who plays at least once a month, across all regions and consoles it might not be a crazy estimate (though my gut feeling is also that it is high). There are lots of players out there who aren't playing every day. Also not sure if you count the mobile version as adding to the player count.
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Mostly covering what others have said already
1: Even if the survivors wins, person on the hook just has to sit there
2: Frequently the camped person just suicides which gives the killer a win (basically by annoying a player out of the game)
3: You can say SWF/soloQ isn't an excuse, but SWFs have a much easier time not just with staying on gens, but timing the positioning to get the person off the hook
4: Even for the other survivors its a boring game, just sit on gens for a couple minutes, leave
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One other argument though is that it plays on, and encourages, a bad moral message/unsatisfying game. See that person over there? Leave them. As a survivor I want to play for the team, and really admire in soloQ how many other survivors do the same. I understand the nature of the game is for the killer to take advantage of that, and in EGC it is sometimes the killer's only option, but it shouldn't be to such an extend that the killer can easily and totally shut it down.
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@Veinslay said:
It's fair to compare DH to Eruption. They hurried up and dumpstered Eruption because of how survivors complained that the incapacitated was miserable to play against. DH has been miserable to play against for six years but the killer quality of life is of little to no concern so it remains overpowered and annoying. Not one person likes the gameplay loop of constantly waiting out DH every chase
A key problem for eruption is that it didn't really affect SWFs, but was devastating to soloQ.
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I do like that a lot of killers in this thread are open about not finding it fun. That's a better argument than usually gets made. If you find it ruins gameplay, theme, fun, I disagree, but understand.
I don't use DH as a survivor, as killerI think it adds another mind gaming element to play, another element of cat and mouse. As killer I generally just swing early to start the match and potentially eat the DH, after that they are more likely to DH quickly as they are expecting an early swing. I find it far less annoying than a 99ed sprint burst.
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I've had some very productive/pleasant post game chats, but if they get toxic just get out. They aren't good for you anyway, but the DDOS issue makes it even more pertinent.
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@UnluckyDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376297#Comment_3376297
Its not a very good way to advertise the character by excluding them entirely from their own trailer, but I'm not in marketing. Just wish with as little love as some characters get, they could get a little spot in the limelight with in their own trailer. This is Canadian erasure!
Its not a very good way to advertise the character by excluding them entirely from their own trailer, but I'm not in marketing.If I had to guess, it's more because of how BHVR's release schedule works. Content has to release every few months and they don't have the options to push stuff back like you might for a new video game release. If they were behind on the design timeline using a model they already had is easier and/or if the initial design of Jeff wasn't finished/being reworked (that beard alone might have kept him out of the trailer).
So not 'good' marketing, but more 'this is the best given the situation'.
Though given BHVR is a Canadian company, I actually hope your idea of Canadian erasure is correct. They are trying to destroy the country from the inside!
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@UnluckyDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376246#Comment_3376246
Possibly? I think they knew eachother when they were kids. To Jeff its been like 20 years or something, hasn't it, and he only knew them the one time he did the art work for them -- at least from what I know. If they did know eachother, you'd think he'd feel even safer with Frank seeing a familiar face as they run for their lives.
I suspect the more likely reason some things don't appear is that designs haven't been finalized at the time that production of the trailer begins. You don't know whether a character will make money or not until you introduce him/her, and no one would intentionally design a character who wouldn't potentially bring in revenue.
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@Hi_Im_Chucky said:
Why is it SpringTrap with these FNAF chapters? Gimme Freddy. Anyway, my hope always goes out to Chucky or a DollMaster type Killer. I’m also keen on Scarecrows. I’ll also be very disappointed if we get another RE chapter. I’m not into it.
Whatever it is, it better be polished and, more than usual, have a unique power that is worth being an Anniversary Chapter. No pressure! Lol
I’m also keen on ScarecrowsNew Chapter - Wizard of Oz
Killer: Wicked Witch
Survivor: Dorothy (with Scarecrow, Tinman, and Lion outfits)
Map: Yellow Brick Road
Make it happen BHVR!
(sorry, don't know why, but that's the place my mind went when I saw Scarecrow).