crogers271
crogers271
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I wish they would have kept the regression perks as they were, but put in a mechanic that limited how many times a killer could kick each gen. Perks aren't the way to solve game issues.
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That doesn't sound at all unusual. 25% to 40% seems to be the general range for soloQ. People's experience seem to vary by MMR, region, and time of day you tend to play.
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Survivor is far, far more enjoyable if you treat it as a team game. It's how well the team does that matters. Try to get yourself out, yes, but also try to get others out as well.
I loathe facecamping, but this isn't the way to address it.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406265#Comment_3406265
Oh, I'm very aware.
At this point the videos are folks who come to the thread later.
I'm one of the people who came to the thread later and it feels like you didn't watch your own videos.
The first video the creator is generally enthusiastic about reassurance and how it will nuke camping. He even talks about wanting it to be a base kit mechanic and not a P2W feature.
The second video talks about a hypothetical possibility. Something that could happen. For it to occur you'd basically need a SWF that was dedicated to griefing the person on the hook. They could already do this via body blocking and like body blocking it could be made bannable (or if even we don't get to that stage, many people have pointed out easy ways to get around it, such as still allowing kobe attempts or 2nd stage hook check failures).
The third video the survivors are working together to test out the feature. The survivor on the hook is not being held against their will and they start off talking about how amazing it will be against campers. They are intentionally trying to test out a hypothetical, not so much actual gameplay. It's also cut together of various matches so it's hard to tell for sure how long they make it actually work, but pretty clear evidence the killer frequently manages to hit/catch survivors as they are coming in for the reassurance.
You accuse @AmpersandUnderscore of bad faith, but neither of your videos actually disprove his point that there is zero evidence. Here is his original comment
This never happened. There was never any evidence of this actually occurring, and was an invented possible scenario to keep Reassurance from being pushed to live in it's original form (that might have been effective at it's job).At best, the perk has the possibility for griefing *if* at least two survivors and the killer were all in on it. The fix, which was mentioned a lot at the time, was to allow the hooked survivor to cancel the effect as an opt in system, which solves any griefing issues in one shot.All of this is still true. It's an invented, possible scenario, those videos you show were testing it out by working together, not holding a survivor captive. Then, as he mentions, even as a possibility it would require a pretty rare combination and, as others have outlined, there were incredibly simple fixes.
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Lots of people list why this is a bad idea.
I do think there should be customization options for custom games, either from friends playing together or for tournament play. In those games you know there are 4 person SWFs and you can adjust game elements as you feel necessary.
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I love when Prove Thyself comes up as a broken perk. Some people think it is way too powerful, others think it is a horrible trap perk and survivors should be spreading out to do gens.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404908#Comment_3404908
Good luck coming up with new effects for Bond, Kindred, Empathy, Aftercare, Empathic Connection, Situational Awareness, and Keys.
That's only six perks, some of which are incredibly rare to run anyway. Hopefully DbD has more than six possible ideas for perks left or the game is truly coming close to its last days.
But I'll give it a go - assume bond and kindred are base kit (I actually disagree that kindred should be basekit, but I'll play along) and even try and keep to the theme the perks already have.
Bond - extend the range, example: 72 meters
Kindred - extend the range that survivors can see the killer's aura to 32 meters (it probably wouldn't have to be this strong, because even if Kindred was given basekit it wouldn't need the full 16 meters)
Empathy - mangled and hemorrhage are paused for survivors who are within 6 meters of you and for 5 seconds after they leave that radius
Aftercare - after you have healed a survivor, gain a 100% speed bonus to healing that survivor
Empathic Connection - your aura shows up in white to any injured survivor, keep the heal boost
Situational Awareness - start with zero tokens, when another survivor is downed gain a token. If the killer tries to read your aura, consume a token to block aura reading for 10 seconds
As for keys - the ability to read the killer aura is the far more powerful effect, but go ahead and merge keys and maps already
I had a few different ideas for some of them. That's off just a few minutes thinking about it, so I don't think creating new ideas for perks is really an issue.
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They should do something about facecamping, but also they aren't going to sadly.
In fairness to them, it's not a completely straightforward problem. I think ambush camping with a stealth killer fits the game's theme well, likewise if survivors don't go for the rescue until a hook state is almost finished I think it would be crazy not to expect the killer to camp the hook. There's also post 5 gens, if you have a survivor on the hook and the doors are open, there isn't much else to do that makes sense.
On the other hand, if BHVR put in actual punishments it would make it clear where the line is between acceptable camping levels and abusive camping.
Examples: if the killer is within the 9 meters of the hook for more than 30 seconds per stage, the timer stops and the killer's aura is shown. That would require the killer to move, but also allow them to come back into the zone while chasing a survivor, or if they wanted to try and set up a trap, or if the timer was ticking down on the survivor.
But I think there some other methods that could work:
Simplistic approach: remove hook grabs (doesn't solve Bubba)
Make the first survivor hooked have a considerably longer timer (first hook facecamps are the biggest problem).
Totally different approach, make all survivors have considerably shorter hook timers, but they don't start until the killer has hit a different survivor.
Buff reassurance considerably (I don't think this should be solved via perks, but that's the route BHVR normally goes). Increasing distance is the obvious, but I think a better idea would be a reassurance that survivors can see, but the killer doesn't. On the killer screen the timer keeps ticking down, but freezes at the last moment.
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That's an interesting question. So we're imaging the rest of the game development has played out the same, but no Trapper and now he enters the game. As others have said its really unlikely he'd enter in his current state, but for the hypothetical I'll imagine he comes in exactly as he is.
So that means the idea of killers who could leave something in place would have just been Hag for the entire game cycle, and then two defensive killers, Skully and Trapper, come in back to back. I think first thing is that the community would worry about BHVR having a radical shift in design,
Second, I think people would complain about him being too powerful at first. 'Hag has to teleport to her traps and she still has to chase, Trapper gets instant downs if he's near and a health state even if he's not'. His top tier addons would definitely be complained about as being too powerful (which is true I think, base trapper should be buffed and his stronger addons made less powerful).
Third, I think killers would enjoy him more. Talk about how he's finally a nice change of pace and you can play a strategic game if you want instead of just chase after chase. Given he was coming after Skully's massive 3 genning powers I think killers would also point to how his gameplay, while defensive, doesn't have the same 'hold the game in place for an hour' ability.
Fourth, you'd get complaints for a couple of weeks about how his traps are impossible to detect and the design needs to be changed.
The map complaints would stay the same.
After a few weeks though, I think all of the above would die down and we'd be right were we currently are.
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Balance wise I get the change, but I did think it made the game more interesting. While many killers seem to loathe the running behind someone playing a guessing game, I thought it added a necessary interaction for both survivors and killers. It required survivors to time and killers to remember who had DH and make a decision between bait or swing through and catch up.
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I'm confused: you have 460 posts, are you the new killer, are you talking about someone else?
The general new killer experience, though it can vary, usually involves mascaraing baby survivors.
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It's actually kind of amazing that as many survivors make it past the early game learning curve as do. If it wasn't for things like Twitch convincing newer players that the game can be a lot of fun I suspect it would have died already.
Here's my post from when I was 30 hours into the game: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/342870/noob-thoughts-the-balance-is-a-joke-right/p1
Overall, the game improves, but it takes a long time before it comes anywhere close to feeling 'fair' (it doesn't help that lots of commenters will dismiss you if your hours aren't in the 4 digits).
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While some people might be over the top in their criticism, it is a bad idea.
Problems:
Survivor runs it, so killer leaves and goes to another survivor. If the killer downs that survivor and they also have the same perk, killer goes looking for another survivor. Sure, maybe someone comes to heal you, but you create a high chance that the killer just ends up with multiple survivors slugged.
On the other hand, let's say the team is good enough loopers that no one is getting downed before that first survivor is up. This creates a massive slowdown for the killer with every survivor basically getting a 4th hook state.
Third problem is that it is just what flashlight bully squads would want, they now have more time to get in position for flashlight saves/sabos.
Fourth problem is how it would work with perks like unbreakable/no mither.
Fifth problem is whether it works against cage of atonement/wesker's charge grab.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402792#Comment_3402792
Would you want someone who couldn’t do math to design a building?
Your comparison is misleading.
Players who are skilled at the game aren't the ones who are good at math, they are the ones who live in the building. Their input on what it is like to live in a certain type of structure should be taken, but that shouldn't be confused with them knowing how to make a building. Especially when the builder has a variety of people he has to design the building for.
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I'll give it a go as one of the people disagreeing with you.
You ask about balance between high and average survivors. Most people say average and you accuse them of hypocrisy for not wanting nurse buffed/sadako nerfed. The problems is that most people think all MMRs should be considered, but were we need to give priority differs.
We all know why the nurse has lower overall kill rates; she's hard to learn how to use, but powerful once you do. Likewise Sadako has high numbers because she gets merciless storm which is brutal against low MMR survivors and useless against higher tier.
You're creating a false dichotomy to try and make your point and it leads to very few people taking you seriously.
You're also treating other people's statements as absolutes while moving the goal posts on your own statements.
Example: you state
Obviously there are some nuances there. I think generally we can all agree that you should at the very least try to do a bit of both.but later attack another post with
You may think i am joking, but if you truly believe we should balance around average players, the data shows this very thing. So if you believe this, then stick to it.When another person discusses general design philosophy, which seems to have been the question you posed, you treat it like they need to defend it in all cases, while you only need to defend your arguments when you so choose.
You also make the following strange statement:
Any competitive game with an longevity never balances for the average playersDbD has a longevity that most games only dream of. If we're using longevity as an argument the very forum you are posting on disproves the assertion that they can't balance around all skill levels and have a successful game.
Then we get into a totally different discussion
Why can't we do both? Why can't we make the game more fair at the high level for killers, while making it better for survivors at the low level?You then throw out quite a few suggestion, some of which I don't really even disagree with, but you've so poisoned the well against yourself with the structure of what you've said it's tough to imagine many people reading these posts. If this had just been the start of a post you would have had a much more fruitful discussion.
To answer the question though, an asymmetrical game can't be perfectly balanced, at least not in a way that makes it fun. DbD enjoyment comes from all of the variety it has. Honestly, while I complain about certain game elements like most people, I'm overall surprised the game isn't more of a mess.
Looking at your suggestions:
They group together on gens because they are afraid of separatinMake it so survivors grouping up together is actually a good thing.I find it amusing that some people think survivors grouping up is a horrible idea, while others think it is over powered with prove thyself.
Your solution doesn't work. Even if spreading out early is a good strategy, eventually you want to group up to finish the last gens, making them go faster would be devastating to a killer.
Also, I disagree with you on the frequency that lower tier survivors group up. Frequently I have no idea where the other survivors are.
They aren't very good at looping and tend to waste god pallets/setups too quicklyW
hy are there even "god" pallets to begin with. What if every pallet was about as strong as a pallet gym?Impossible to have map variety and pull that off. Also
Low MMR survivors, aren't going against killers who can do crazy mindgames anyway so it would actually buff them quite a bit because now they are punished much less for "wasting" pallets.It's much easier to mind game as a low tier killer compared to a low tier survivor. I don't think your solution would accomplish what you think it does.
They don't know how to deal with camping killers.What if camping was removed from the game completely and made impossible.I disagree with your solution, but broadly think camping should be addressed beyond just perks.
They spend too much time doing things that aren't relevant to the objective (I.E. Dull totems, searching chests for items)What if chests actually gave items that were worth something.I generally think chests should be more powerful, but I don't see how this closes the gap in the game.
Let's say chests are stronger, but still not a great use of time. You now have survivors wasting even more time looking for them.
Let's say chests are so strong survivors should find them, high skill survivors find them much more quickly than lower skill.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed or that it is fair. Imagine there was a killer offering that:Again you are taking a general comment and misrepresenting it by jumping to an extreme. You're comparing the fact that sometimes the killer will be extremely outmatched with the chance of a random autowin feature. Mismatches are inevitable in multiplayer games, while the second idea would be easily corrected.
If there was a way to "fix" professional comp teams hitting mid tier killer players, sure. However, if something is rare and the solution (which you are proposing) is substantial game overhaul (which likely just creates other problems), then yes, the fact that it is rare is something we can live with.
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@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402980#Comment_3402980
What?
Even without tunnel it is still a nerf.
A big nerf.
In most of match,you won't really hook four of different survivor, even you are not tunneling.
So the ruined PR will be a 2~3 used perk.
And have to force yourself hooking different survivor to get a 2~3 used perk.
Let's say you hook 3 survivors (if you only manage to hook 2 survivors during a game you're either tunneling or have lost). That is a 75% reduction.
You would need to get to 6 hooks to surpass that with current PR. The only combos that get you there without downing a 4th survivor are 3/2/1, 3/3, or 2/2/2. In situation one and two you're now in a position where you don't need the PR value, situation 3 is a weird one where it looks like one of the survivors is just hiding.
Of course there is more to it than that. Bad luck on hook placement might mean you don't surpass the value until the 7th or 8th hook. Bad luck on hook placement doesn't matter as much with new PR because all you need is one time to get value out of it.
But there's even more than raw numbers. Killers main complaint is that gens fly way too quickly in the early game - now you have the option to hit gens for more impact early in the game. Killers have much less need of getting gen slowdown late in the game, while taking it away gives survivors a chance.
And then if you do hook 4 survivors, the numbers become even more stark.
And have to force yourself hooking different survivor to get a 2~3 used perk.Yes, that's the point. You can still tunnel if you want, but you don't get gen slow down on top of it.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402112#Comment_3402112
You didn't explain why Pain Res got nerfed. It's a big nerf since you can't tunnel with it anymore and that's a massive nerf since tunneling is by far the strongest strategy.
"You are only better with old PR from the seventh hook onward."
That assumes that you hooked a unique survivor every time in the first 4 hooks, which is extremely unlikely.
Only Overcharge, CoB, and Eruption was warranted in their nerfs due to the perma 3 gen. Other slowdown perks mainly got nerfed due to high usage:
Corrupt Intervention: literally no one knew why it got nerfed. It's similar enough to Deadlock that Deadlock could get nerfed for the same reason.
Hex Ruin: it was only a problem with Tinkerer due to the perma Tinkerer but Tinkerer got nerfed, which fixed the problem, and they still nerfed Ruin. Ruin was fine since you couldn't stack it with other gen kicking perks.
Pop Goes the Weasel: it was a B tier perk at the time and it got nerfed multiple times purely since it was popular
Thana: Thana was a bad perk that almost no one used before it was buffed and got very popular on Plague and Legion, people complained, and instead of reverting the buff, they nerfed it into oblivion.
You didn't explain why Pain Res got nerfed. It's a big nerf since you can't tunnel with it anymore and that's a massive nerf since tunneling is by far the strongest strategy.You kind of explain it yourself. Tunneling is the strongest strategy and BHVR doesn't want it to be. If you don't tunnel PR is an improvement, if you do it is a nerf.
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Many killers in the game have pretty straightforward strategies that, if pursued, really increase the chances of a draw at a minimum. Examples are: basement trapper or bubba, 3 gen knight or skully, tunneling wraith is another one (though not as powerful as a tunneling Blight or Nurse).
Because you have more map knowledge than anyone other than a clock calling out SWF as killer, if you've got a strategy they can be really quick to implement. The only real questions then is how long does the first down take you and does the other team have the right perks to counter.
To counter the strategy the other team would ideally all be wearing the same outfits thus making tunneling more difficult, plus have a member with a dedicated anti-tunnel build. If they have a dedicated healer they can also get the hook heal quickly, or alternatively send two survivors to heal, or have a syringe.
As for quality of opponents you face, I find time of day you play and region have a high impact on whether MMR 'works'.
I'm always surprised how many survivors heal at the hook, even when I've made it clear as killer that I'll come back to check after an unhook.
A similar thing that survivors getting tunneled don't do right is where to run. Frequently they'll overstay a loop instead of trying to get away from the generators and to a zone of the map where it will be very difficult for the killer to both be by the hook and patrol the gens.
I don't pursue a hard tunnel unless I'm pretty sure I'm against a SWF. I only find killer moderately enjoyable and the last thing I want to do is play the game searching for survivors who have gone into hide mode.
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There's four problems for Trapper
1: He is hurt more by SWFs than most killers.
2: His addons can boost his power more than most killers.
3: When his power works out it really works, making some games easy, turning what would be long chases into instant downs.
4: His most viable strategy, basement trapper, is extremely powerful but not very fun.
If I'm playing trapper and hit a SWF, I immediately try to switch to basement trapper mode.
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@Sylhiri said:
At low mmr you can use a single yellow perk, no add-ons on a Billy without using a chainsaw and still get a 4k while purposely not trying.
Which is what I did last night, because I've never played Billy.
His chainsaw feels like running through pudding while someone yanks left on the mouse cable. Still didn't finish that BP mission...
That brings back memories. My first try with Billy about 8 months ago. I spent the first couple minutes of the match just colliding into object after object before deciding I didn't need a power and then just chased down each of the survivors.
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@HugTheHag said:
Wraith is a paradox for me in that I've never outrun a Wraith that uncloaked to hit me, I always get hit, but when I play as him uncloaking feels so. freaking. slow !
Same feeling here. When I'm a survivor that speed boost coming out of cloak seems inescapable, when playing Wraith doesn't seem long enough to catch the survivor.
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Get rid of hook grabs.
Increase the range of reassurance.
Allow the survivors to find a rocket launcher they can use to shoot a camping Bubba.
I think that would fix most of the issues.
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Every month I play survivor for 2 weeks and get Iri 1 EASILY. Getting Killer to Iri 1? Doable, but not as easy. I’m talking playing NOTHING but Twins for 2 weeks straight.I have the opposite experience. Main survivor, but almost never get to Iri 1, but have gotten it with killer with little problem. But I play a variety of killers and am pretty relaxed unless I'm trying to get those last couple iri ranks.
Anyone playing Killer, who has good skills, should be able to pick ANY killer, equip ANY 4 perks (vs 17 survivor perks (BT basekit) plus potentially an additional 4 items & 8 addons) and get 2 kills every single time against GOOD survivors. Login, play killer, play well, and “win” with a 2K every time. 0K and 4K should be rare outliers.Conceptually I understand what you are going for, but I think its unrealistic. There is no way you could make such a wide variety of killers and perks and have all of them be equally balanced or useful., especially given the game's asymmetrical nature.
As for the 2k goal, two issues.
1: The game design is not 2ks (even it was the average across games). It is a snowball type game where a mistake on one side can quickly change the match. You'd need a radically different game design to accomplish this.
2: Each individual game is not meant to be perfectly balanced. Maybe you have a bad/good map, maybe the other side brought just the right perks to counter you, maybe you just misplayed a mind game or played one perfectly, etc. The variety makes the game much more fun. Look to longer term results and don't stress any single game.
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@Aceislife said:
I dont get the complaints around slugging. Slugging is a worse strategy than just hooking survs, unless you have a build around slugging. I usually slug as killer if I think I can get another hit/down before the downed person is picked up.
Yeah, this. If I get slugged (ie downed and left for an extended period of time at the beginning of the game, not just for the killer to chase someone close by) early in the game it pretty much always works against the killer. If the killer camps the slug, he'll need to camp a lot longer than he would a hook. If he leaves, maybe it takes slightly longer to get back up than an unhook would, but usually not, and I still have all my hook states.
@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398109#Comment_3398109
Oh that's a bit different. I do agree the killer still wins with a 3k but I don't like the idea of preventing a killer from being able to get an overwhelming win (just as survivors shouldn't be prevented from an overwhelming win such as all survivors live and/or no survivors being hooked). I don't like the idea preventing players from doing as well as they could on either side beyond the hatch existing. If a killer or survivors team does well they should be rewarded for it rather than punished.
A possible compromise:
I would like to speed up the game when it is down to two survivors and one is already down, such as with an accelerated bleed out timer. This would probably result in more hatch escapes.
I'd also like to speed up the game when all the gens are done, the killer has one survivor on hook, and the other three survivors are trying for the 4k. I'd like EGC to start with the last gen finished so we don't get in a draw out of - survivors rush in, unhook, killer gets one down, killer hooks, survivors retreat and reset and go again. That would make the the overwhelming victory (4e) for the survivor harder.
I think that putting in both at the same time would be a good idea. It would make total victories less likely on either side, but also speed up the game for everyone.
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@Canas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398628#Comment_3398628
How exactly is that a matter of map design? A killer for instance can simply block off the entrance to the basement by simply standing in one of the doorways. Map design still heavily favors survivors, there are far too many pallets and absurd loops to abuse. The entire basegame was designed with survivors in mind, killers will always be 2nd fiddle to the devs.
A killer for instance can simply block off the entrance to the basement by simply standing in one of the doorwaysThat's not what is being discussed. If a killer blocks a door to the basement, there are still other ways in (if we're talking shack another door and window). There are a few maps where if the killer gets the survivor on the hook and then stands in the doorway it is literally impossible for survivors to get a rescue. Not hard, not difficult, impossible.
It's a rare enough occurrence that I don't really think it is an issue to put too much concern into, but it's a very different thing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394342#Comment_3394342
No. It's a huge un-nerf. With the original PTB, it's extremely easy to get 0 or 1 activations, especially in solo Q. New DH is 2 guaranteed activations, which is a huge boost.
The maximum limit was unrealistic. People usually aren't getting 6 DH activations on live DBD. The average would be 3, which is 1 per hook state. So the original PTB is realistically usually 0 or 1, with a much lower chance of 2 or 3.... and new DH is guaranteed 2.
And if the original PTB version went live, survivors would quickly find out they can easily get stuck with 0 activations, and would drop the perk.
No. It's a huge un-nerf. With the original PTB, it's extremely easy to get 0 or 1 activations, especially in solo Q. New DH is 2 guaranteed activations, which is a huge boost.You're basically explaining why the change was necessary. SWFs could run a single dedicated unhooker with DH (which they already do with Deliverance). While 6 DH would be unlikely, more than 2 would not.
Because DH now has "tunnel protection", BHVR should treat it like an anti-tunnel perk.....How much do you want to nerf Off the Record to make that potentially viable?
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They definitely should provide at least some delay/slow down to hemorrhage when triggered. I'll see those perks from time to time when considering builds and then remember there is such a high chance they get wiped out by killer selections and they are weak as is.
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I wish there was some way to standardize addons/items. When the survivors bring 4 purple items and the killer nothing, or the killer runs iri addons and the survivors are empty handed, it doesn't feel like a well designed game.
I'll interpret your question to mean what are things that can be done that are allowed within the game rules that shouldn't be: face camping, especially the first hook. It's one of those things that butcher lower levels MMRs and soloQ that SWF can deal with easily.
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We just got a nerf to DH. Let's see how it plays out.
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@NotAnotherDoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398085#Comment_3398085
I have 5,000 hours total, I'd say roughly 3,000 are on killer
I'd take 5,000 hours of play time as a massive win. Nothing stays fun forever.
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Taking out collision though would prevent the rare occurrence were the killer body blocks the unhooked survivor to prevent them from escaping before the time elapses.
Aside from technical hurdles, I think it wouldn't really help the game. There isn't a lot to the end game of DbD once the doors are open. And unless the survivor was really close to the doors, they are taking a risk on BT running out.
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Depends what you are talking about. Survivors can play with anywhere from purple medkits and BNPs to bringing nothing. Survivors can be on comms and have coordinated their picks, or a random group running into each other with redundant perks. The only thing that changes for killer is the quality of the add ons they choose to take.
If both sides play at their 'best' (their best gear, survivors working out perks, comms) it goes toward survivors pretty heavily with the possible exception of the big three. The majority of the games though lean toward the killer because that's a pretty rare situation.
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If you aren't tunneled, DH is better.
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Games are only as fun or serious as the community makes them.
1 killer 12 survivors.Doesn't sound like there would be a lot to the game. Hide, hope the killer finds the others first.
Also that huge of a mismatch in player types would create massive que problems.
Or a different game mod where we only can hide from the killer and not stunt him and going to a loop to another loop to another loop ?The game is relatively simplistic when you look at what it has within it. Taking out chases would be making it even more straightforward. Also, game was originally conceived as being more hide and go seek, but community generally preferred chases.
Also why isnt there more killer with interactive power such as the pig ? The pig has the only power that makes the survivor another game and another goal, which is pretty fun!That would admittedly be good, but there are only so many possibilities of things that can be done within the game's scope.
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Sadly, this game's premise isn't really about that. You can be the best at chasing and still lose if you don't like to think about generators. You have to have slowdown, regression or camp and tunnel. You have to be mindful of forcing a 3 gen. While some may find that fun I do not. I'd rather watch paint dry than look at a guy on hook. Obviously, it's not as simple as that to win a match but let's get to the real reason behind this post.As killer you have to be aware of multiple things and make quick, strategic decisions. Sometimes its chase, sometimes hold. To me that is one of the few appeals of killer.
As for the suggested game mode, it sounds more like a practice mode for learning how to do chases. I'm sure some people would play it from time to time, but I have difficulty imaging it having any long term player base. Going 2nd as survivor would also be a benefit because knowing where the pallets are is I think generally more beneficial for the survivor than killer, and knowing the time to beat would mean the survivor would know when they just have to make distance instead of looping.
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but it ended with a 4k because extremely stupid poor gameplay for the survivors in the end just to save one of them (for example blood warden activated)I mean if you ran Blood Warden I kinda expect you were playing for end game kills.
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Before SWF existed people still played together. If everyone hits to que up at the same time it only takes dodging a few lobbies before you get grouped up. If you put an active penalty on SWFs, no one will officially be a SWF, but they'll still exist, just under the radar and we'll have slower lobbies. The only SWFs you'd be stopping is if they are of radically different MMRs, which aren't really a problem anyway.
You could spend a lot of time trying to punish people for that, but its not something BHVR wants to do.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394342#Comment_3394342
Guaranteed activations is why Dead Hard will remain a meta perk that everyone runs, because they don't have to do anything to earn it. It just happens passively, same as before. The only change is that now it can't happen during the first chase with any survivor. After that, it's the exact same meta as usual.
I have no guess how many people will run DH, but it has taken a huge nerf. As you mentioned, you can't use it on the first chase, but that's the one that's most important while you have three survivors doing gens. Likewise it becomes useless if you are camped and get hit coming off the hook. If you are tunneled than OTR would have been a better perk to have, which you could mix with an exhaustion perk as well.
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I generally speaking agree. Much like how survivors have a mechanic that makes running more than one exhaustion perk really hard, I think something similar could be done with the regression perks.
Overcharge, PR, and CoB could have stayed how they were, some of the gen regression perks could have been even a little stronger, but combining them just led to games that were way too long.
I think it would be an overall healthier game. Many survivors who are unlocking things with shards don't have all the perks to make meta builds, but BHVR still has to balance around the possibility of unlimited combinations. If perks were put together in groups and killers/survivors allowed to take only one per group, it would be much easier to balance/buff/nerf the perks within those groupings.
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I think conceptually its a great idea, but the designers missed a big issue. The hand reader for tracking survivors is really cool, except there are so many perks and sounds in the game that let you locate the survivors anyway. If the game was more hide and seek based taking time to look at an awkward scanner could be a really interesting mechanic, but being I can use a multitude of perks to show the survivors exact location, it's considerably weaker than what already exists.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394478#Comment_3394478
I'd honestly love to see SWF revealed in the post-game. Good players can already tell.
It'll just check some people's egos.
Agreed. I get their argument on keeping MMR secret, but it would be nice to know the frequency of either hitting SWFs or playing with them as a soloQ.
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I had the urge to facecamp someone during end game.If its end game and someone is on the hook, there is very little else for you to do, though unless you are a Bubba the survivor counters are pretty easy.
I can't help on the original post though because I don't share your anxiety about killer. But that nerves and tension is what the game is trying to get out of players, some feel it as a survivor, some as a killer.
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394459#Comment_3394459
Then at least let me know when I'm against a SWF lobby so I can dodge it. Let someone else go against that nightmare. But forcing me to play at a huge disadvantage against a group that basically gets all the info perks for free, and then some, is just brutal.
Then at least let me know when I'm against a SWF lobby so I can dodge it.Yeah, that's never going to happen. At best, BHVR might consider allowing people to know whether they hit a SWF in the endgame, and they've already shot that idea down on the forum.
I'm 100% soloQ and see your point, but its not going anywhere.
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I very rarely run anything about a yellow addon or item. Because medkits are getting nerfed I've been burning through my stocks of purple and greens. Yeah, they're broken.
Items should be more like perks. The different levels should provide slight increases in power, not completely change the game.
@durag_demon1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393464#Comment_3393464
So it's the survivors fault that we use self healing as a strat to be more efficient???.. .hmmmmm
It's not the survivors fault, but if there is a clearly superior strategy then BHVR should look into it.
It wasn't survivors faults when infinites existed, or killers that unbreakable 3 gens were a thing, or that Bubba can just face camp a hook. Those elements are on BHVR and they absolutely should, change them.
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SWF and discord aren't going anywhere. Lots of people want to play with their friends, no possible way to prove they aren't on voice chat.
Bully squads aren't going anywhere. As long as survivors have some means to slow down the killer there will be teams who play that way.
8 second heal is much less likely to pull off now and absolutely requires a teammate.
gqme cant be balanced around noobs because the noobility line just goes down every time untill moment survs get the flying getpack and still will cryAre you upset about SWFs or low tier MMR?
GIVE ME A REASON TO PLAY KILLER?Okay, don't. If you aren't enjoying it don't play killer.
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Survivors have been saying they want three general things addressed - 3 gens, facecamping, tunneling. They partially got the first one, we'll see if the dedicated 3 genners can still hold. Killers have complained about self heals, DH, BNP, and CoH. Self heals weaker, DH loses at least a third of its value (likely more as its first use on an early game chase is most powerful) and CoH was a nerf and a buff (overall nerf). BNPs are still around and likely will be next on the nerf list as their one reason for existing, to break a 3 gen, isn't really valid anymore.
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I think I've made several posts on this forum to the effect of, "I camp and tunnel because it makes life easier for me". I don't have to justify it.You sure seem to be wanting to spend a lot of time trying to justify it.
You can proxy camp the hook if you want, but if you are really intent on hitting the survivor off the hook that's going to be a pretty narrow radius. If you hit another survivor on the way to the tunnel, tunnel target is in DH territory. If you are kicking a gen, tunnel target gets to DH territory. If the unhook is near a vault or pallet, tunnel target gets to DH territory. If its end game and target hits adrenaline, they've got DH. If you hit the target right at the end of BT, that's pretty much the same as DH anyway, except now there is no chance they'll miss it.
I just don't see what the change to the game is. In the live game you should hit targets as they come off the hook if you have the chance. Camping and tunneling are powerful tactics that the survivors can potentially counter. Nothing about that has really changed.
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It's an elimination game. The benefit of eliminating a survivor will always be of paramount benefit.
survivors wanting fun games(as well as killers) usually state that chases are the most fun part of the game.Chases derive a lot of fun from the fact that they have meaning. As survivor if you get downed there is the risk of elimination, and for the killer every second you don't down them the survivors are closer to getting the gates open.
Trying to make the game so that everyone gets hooked twice before any survivors are eliminated is an unreasonable standard. I think what is a more reasonable goal is to prevent a killer from singling in a survivor and eliminating them via the first three hooks.
I think there are a few things that could be done to make tunneling less likely - a simple one would be a haste boost for the survivor with the most hooks.
But if we're just discussing ideas, here's a radical one:
Entity Wake Up
Reduce hook timers to 15 seconds, but the timer does not start until another survivor is hooked (alternative, slightly longer timer, but starts as soon as another survivor is downed). This would mean survivors still have some pressure to get the survivor off the hook, but there is a good possibility the killer will be away from the hook when it happens. Also takes out camping.
Other crazy possibility
Start survivors at 75% gen efficiency. Every time someone else is hooked, all other survivors gain a 25% bonus, the survivor who gets hooked loses 50% efficiency, minimum 25%. If killer just tunnels someone out the other survivors will get the gens done really quickly. Other benefit - survivors will be slower on gens during the beginning of the game (which is a killer complaint) but have more of a possibility of breaking a 3 gen (which is a survivor complaint)
Things I don't think would work
Respawn: would fundamentally change what makes the game fun, the danger of getting eliminated.
Making killers stronger: Killers could have a 95% win rate and they'd still tunnel. Players should be trying to win.
Perks: DbD is already enough of a guessing game. To really stop tunneling there would have to be a perk that utterly destroyed a killer from tunneling.
Faster gens for living survivors: Lose the pressure of saying the survivor on the hook. Losing a survivor should really hurt.
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I'm not a DH user, but as someone who uses OTR frequently they aren't comparable. OTR is really only useful if you are being tunneled. If you get unhooked and the killer is on the other side of the map in a chase, you need to get on a gen or heal. DH has value if you get tunneled off the hook (anything more than 10 seconds) or if you have time to heal up (but makes it really wasteful to run any other type of exhaustion perk)
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This game was never scary ever since I started and I assume everyone else feels the same way. So, I don't think the reason is that it's thrilling. Is it because of collaborated characters? Skins? Survivor is a very, gambling role to me if that makes sense. You are highly dependent on other players. No guarantee to escape no matter how good you are. Not as cathartic gameplay as Killers most of the time.Survivor main: play because it is thrilling (though not scary).
I'm older than a lot of the player base having been playing video games since the Atari, online games for almost 25 years. No game has ever matched the tension I feel when playing as a survivor. Some of the things you mention are what makes it thrilling. I don't control the other players. There are lots of elements of the game that are random. It's not necessarily fair.
It has just enough theming elements to make me care while still focusing on the gameplay.
From the start of the game there is so much you don't know. What killer is it? Is he coming at my gen or someone else's? If I get hooked will the other survivors try and save me or not?
The biggest element though, a win can be turned into a loss at a moment's notice.
I almost never feel 'safe' until I've escaped. I was just playing against a ghost face that got me exposed as I was running toward the exit gate and dropped me a meter before I was out.
Other games rarely match this feeling. It's usually pretty obvious by the mid-point (if not earlier) which team will win. As survivor there is always the possibility that even if the 'team' wins you won't.
As killer, I don't really get any of that. Killers plays like a lot of other online games, I know relatively quickly what sort of game its going to be. If I get a 4k, okay, if they all get out, no problem. The worst games are as killers were you are way better than the survivors, then it just feels like a chore.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392545#Comment_3392545
What's considered early in the match? You can easily lose 2-3 gens in the time it takes you to find,chase, then down your first survivor. I'm not even taking onto account toolboxes or gen perks.
And now that you don't have to worry about a DH from the start initial chases shouldn't be as long.