Sylhiri
Sylhiri
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- Sylhiri
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Sounds like a game design issue. Creating mechanics that allow players to hold a player hostage for several minutes while shrugging their shoulders and go "It's perfectly fine" shows more about the competency of the developer then the killer.
I find it hard to blame players for certain actions while the mechanics that allow those actions go unchanged.
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Not even sure the win conditions are comparable since you can have a state where both a survivor and killer can win the same game or lose the same game.
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@Chaosrider said:
They dont work cause theyre just half baked work arounds. The cause of tunneling is that it circumvents core gameplay in an super easy way that basically guarantees 4ks. Unless devs accept that the only fix is to completely render tunneling useless nothing will change. But being realistic devs have long ago given up on fixing their core game.
Exactly this. Maybe the devs will test a new mode that removes tunneling and if successful, replace the main game mode. Otherwise it would be a wait until a sequel .
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Looking at the bloodpoint bonuses, Killers get their bonus for a 4k and Survivors get theirs for escaping the trial (does not matter if anyone else survives).
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@LilyPad said:
Because they're not designed to solve the problems. Just fulfill a quota so they can be referenced when people complain.
I mean BHVR doesn't even need a PR team. Look at all the people defending these terrible systems in the thread alone lol.
Don't expect anything significant to happen to gameplay until there is a significant financial gain or the people who are in charge get replaced with those who prioritize gameplay over profits (not happening.)
Dead by Daylight 2 with no progression/character transfer and just riddled with more microtransactions (I think all that's left is a optional subscription model).
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The only way you would get rid of tunneling is if a substantial amount of survivors stopped paying and playing DBD enough where the financial impact is greater then the cost of developing a modified game without tunneling.
Besides that, play the board game. The mechanically superior version of DBD.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Yea they should...
Seems Tunneling is the playstyle used by a lot of Killer players do
But have we looked into why they do Tunnel...
1) Gens are too fast... so Kills got to be fast
2) Bodyblocking- having the focus shift onto who just came off of the hook
3) Survivors teabagging at the exit gates... that takes a toll on players mental
4) Because it's easy to do and the reward for doing it is high.
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The face looks off but the voice is key. Glad they got that in for the character.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546175#Comment_3546175
It's proven the game becomes easier when someone is out. Why would we not tunnel? 4 survivors is very hard to deal with if you aren't Nurse.
That is generally why gens are kept at the speed it is and gen regression is highly regulated.
I doubt anything would change unless the core mechanics of the game is changed. No point in complaining about gen speeds or tunneling since tunneling is tied to the core mechanics.
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If Killer is able to snowball then it would only make sense to allow survivors a counter.
As long as tunneling remains as an option in the game, gens will continue to pop rapidly. This is balance.
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@Crowman said:
You do know that tunneling will always be a thing regardless of how bhvr nerfs it. There's nothing unhealthy about it. The killer's job is to kill.
And a survivors job is to survive. This is always such a weird statement.
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You take the board and flip it over.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479711#Comment_3479711
Those perks aren't good enough, and they aren't basekit either. BHVR has made it clear they want to give survivors basekit help, and killers should also get basekit help. Most of those aura reading aren't even reliable if the survivor is far away, because they could have easily moved far away by the time the killer gets there.
Survivors wouldn't need base kit help if the underlying issues they were supposed to help with are removed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479656#Comment_3479656
BHVR could shift this game to move away from camping and tunneling, but they would need to give killers real help in finding other survivors and actually getting in close ranged chases with other survivors. If BHVR does that, then it can create real anti-tunnel and real anti-camp mechanics.
The entire game expectation for killers is just garbage, which is why camping and tunneling are often the best strategies. BHVR expects killers to just wander far away from hooked survivors, and hope they might find other survivors, and if the killer doesn’t find anyone, well it’s just too bad for the killer. And if the killer stumbles across the person they most recently hooked, and there is no other survivor in sight, then the killer is supposed to just ignore that survivor and wander around the map, hoping to find other survivors, and if the killer doesn’t find anyone, we’ll it’s just too bad for the killer.
There seems to be this death grip that killers have to ensure they still have to option of camping and tunneling when those are discussed.
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By themselves each killer would be able to have it's specific flavor of horror but jamming all the subgenres of horror into one blob makes the game less like a horror anthology and more like Cabin in the Woods.
You can definitely feel a shift from the original design recently.
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Generally in games, if you do poorly you lose which then encourages the player to do better.
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Might be good for a YouTube video.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471721#Comment_3471721
This is a ######### argument.
Everyone has known that tunneling is the best strategy for YEARS. Everyone has also known that it can be exceedingly unfun.
All you're trying to do is take the blame off of the Killer and say, "See, they had no choice!". If you're gonna play like an ass and tunnel at 5 gens, own it.
My personal opinion is that while it has some moral implications on the killer, the vast majority of the blame would be on the devs who allow and continue to allow it to happen for, as you said, years.
If survivors were able to exploit game design to their benefit with no repercussions, they would. Both sides are human and have self interests. Players have a tendency to min/max the fun out of any game, actual game developers should understand this.
As they say, "don't hate the player, hate the game".
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It's basically the equivalent of spawn camping and the developers insisting on it being a valid strategy only for FPS games added in the future to no longer allow it.
Wait until DBD2.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467909#Comment_3467909
No worries, didn't come off that way !
I'm just skeptical because yes, Victor exists, but his PoV isn't the greatest to have for the whole game and yes, he can't hook people. (also, Hag and Blight are nowhere near the same level of short haha !)
Now, give Chucky a horse and maybe... =P
If you use the original you could always have the human killer running around with the ability to possess the dolls scattered around the map.
If they ever do add Chucky, I'd rather them get the license for the original then the copy. Still wish they were able to do that with Freddy.
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If you want to address the camping and tunneling permanently then you would have to remove the hook mechanic.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444976#Comment_3444976
This thread is about tunneling, survivors generally don't like that. So what i'm saying is, the devs should make it so that killers are encouraged to spread pressure around, meaning they don't have to tunnel someone out to win. Simultaneously, tunneling should be nerfed even further than it is now. Thus making it so these killers can be rewarded for spreading pressure, and punished for tunneling. Then the survivors will have a better time.
The problem with this game is that the most effective way for killers to win, is also the most boring to play against. Similarly, the most effective way for survivors to win, is also the most boring for killers to play against. I'm saying the game should not encourage the most boring way to play the game in order to win, and we should instead be encouraging both sides to play in more fun and interesting ways that will also lead to winning.
The biggest issue with tunneling is how easy it is for a massive benefit. How would you punish tunneling enough to offset the payout of a huge upfront advantage?
On the survivor side it's very easy to fix the gen speed problem which can be done with numerical changes, not so with tunneling.
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You should have told the devs that when they started, could have saved them a lot of money and kept all the wonderful features people enjoyed.
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So what would you replace them with?
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Both camping and tunneling are strategies that can only be as effective as they are because of the base game design of being able to remove a player from the match.
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I don't blame any person who min-max their play style because players will ALWAYS try to min-max as much as the game rules allow. This has and always will be a thing which is why game design is important, because players will always try to break the game. So I don't think it's the players fault, the design is just garbage.
I highly doubt there is a lot of people that like being snowballed. Of course people love being the ones doing the snowball. That is why Killers complain about fast generators and Survivors complain about getting tunneled or camped because both are trying to gain an advantage as quickly as possible before the other side does.
If you take a step back, this isn't rocket science. It's logical why they are adding so much to Survivors to reduce the effects of tunneling and camping. Because it's cheaper then solving a long standing problem from the core game design. If Killers and Survivors want to remove the most problematic issue then you need to be willing to remove the snowball.
If both of you can't do that, then you shouldn't complain because they are both linked.
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It's really hard to keep a horror movie scary after the 50th viewing.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438973#Comment_3438973
Even with that busted slowdown, you'd still tunnel and would still want Survivors nerfed in addition to that.
Yikes.
Hey, if the game slowed down and chases were quicker then you wouldn't need to tunnel because you'd get a 4k easier then if you tunneled.
Now that would be a carrot solution! Win/win for everyone!
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@Slan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429845#Comment_3429845
But it is easy, deal with genrush effectively then camping and tunnelling will decrease
That's like saying dealing with camping and tunneling effectively then genrush will decrease.
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I will give you $5 not to take this gold coin worth $500. You won't get in any trouble for taking said coin, only an issue with morality which you can come up with any number of excuses to justify why you took the coin. Also you and I are complete strangers.
Incentives work.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428633#Comment_3428633
At this point you're asking for a massive nerf to Killers.
Hardly any Killer main would complain if the general gameplay flow would be shifted to reward spreading hooks over tunneling, but if you demand that a solution to a problem feld only by Survivors is paid for exclusivly out of the Killers pockets, you shouldn't be suprised if Killers point out that they don't want to pay for your fun.
I would ask a nerf to both killer and survivor. You would need a massive reward incentive to shift away from tunneling because it's easy to do and has game changing potential.
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Like tunneling, teabagging needs a gameplay incentive so people can defend it by saying they use it because they want to win.
I suggest gaining a token that increases gen speeds by 10% everytime you teabag in the killers TR while in line of sight. Cooldown is 60 seconds and you lose the tokens when hooked.
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Base game design. At its core, if the foundation has issues you will always end up issues down the road no matter how much new flooring or paint you add.
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The longer a match goes, the more of a chance the killer will kill survivors, thus there is no incentive for survivors to do anything that not decrease their time in the match. Aka, survival.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423668#Comment_3423668
Looks like you have me all figured out.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423755#Comment_3423755
Goal is usually to antagonize the Killer for their own amusement.
So flashlights and being able to sabo the hook should be removed from the game because players are using flashlights and sabotaging hooks in ways that the developers intended?
In that case I got a list of stuff that irritates me that we can get rid of as well.
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Because in the long run it would cost more money to properly fix the issue then any consequence of just small bandaid fixes that make it seem like trying to fix the issue.
If people wanted it fixed, stop spending money?
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Flashlight saves and sabotaging the hook trying to get the killer chase a new person while ignoring the downed survivor seems pretty much the intended goal. Basically anti-tunneling.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422811#Comment_3422811
Camping and tunneling aren't exploits. Yes the devs have tried to add more counterplay to them but that doesn't mean they're exploits.
If the devs considered them exploits they'd outright remove them, but they don't because, as they've stated in the past, camping and tunneling are strategies the killer is fully in their right to capitalise on if they so choose.
What I find odd is that with how much people complain about camping and tunneling thesedays, survivors still aren't really bringing the perks intended to discourage them.
They are not exploits but regarding the devs keeping the mechanics in play can still be up for debate. Game developers are not faultless beings, in fact they can end up messing up a lot because game design is complex and they are human.
Feedback is an essential tool for game devs.
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The hook wiggle change was excellent, the carry wiggle definitely feels disconnected. The old one felt like you were actually struggling.
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DC'ing off the get go is pretty dumb but you can basically tell how a match is going to go pretty quickly due to the intended snowball the game promotes.
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What would happen if you removed all generator speed perks/items/addons from the game? Would the base speed be perfectly fine on both sides?
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I am all for the removal of snowballing on both sides.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3418268#Comment_3418268
If a killer proxy camps and lets the survivor farm me off hook then sure they can make the combo weaker. However, if the survivors have any clue on how to play the game then they will body block when they realize the killer wants to hard tunnel me out, and since my perks result in the killer not trying for the grab/injure they are now able to take 2 hits.
I find it interesting how people complain about tunneling and I'm over here wanting the killer to tunnel into my OTR because it results in more survivors escaping.
Wasn't there a thread recently where the standard response was "if you body block, I will tunnel you"?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3417239#Comment_3417239
EVOLVE was like DBD, the new Texas Chainsaw Massacre game is like it, the Evil Dead game is like it too.
I'm not sure about Chainsaw but the other two you can actually fight back. Shooter skills transferred over.
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@Caiman said:
I don't think I have ever seen anyone use Overcome, ever. Honestly I wish they did, it'd be interesting to figure out how to play against it.
Didn't it get worse because of the adjustments to on hit sprint lasting shorter? I don't remember Overcome getting buffed to compensate for the nerf.
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So how would you change Overcome to make it more engaging while not making it weaker?
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@NoHookDC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416620#Comment_3416620
The "Survivor Rulebook" is just a dumb boogeyman that killer players bring up as a buzzword to throw a pity party over their controversial playstyle.
Except it very much existed as the game gained popularity. Suddenly, Survivors were inventing rules against camping, tunneling, slugging, not playing Nurse, not using certain perks, etc.
When in reality, its not even a rulebook and more "the game would be more fun us if you played like this instead."
When in reality it was more "It would be more fun for us if Killers stopped trying to win. Now excuse me while we bring 2 BNP, a flashlight, and a purple medkit. And all META perks. And use voice comms in a 4-man SWF. But Killers need to stop 'tryharding' and 'sweating' and play off-META sometimes, because our fun matters.'
Sounds to me like compensating for bad game design.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409981#Comment_3409981
Increasing gen times a lot would be boring for survivors. I rather have some middle ground solution hard tunneling should be nerfed where killer only chase one survivor and pretty much ignores others even at 4-5 gens. But when it's 1-2 gen left, killer need's someone out and that can involve tunneling.
I suggest tunneling survivor between after first hook should be made difficult. Then gens could be increased bit to compensate and killers should be rewarded more for spreading hooks. Sometines now when you spread hooks you notice you're losing and need to tunnel someone out and that's fine. Because the survivor had chance to play the game normally and eventually killer needs to kill survivors if he wants to win.
But that's just another bandaid. It doesn't fix the problem. Tunneling would still occur and it will feel just as terrible as before.
Killer doesn't need a catch up mechanic or a "make my life easier" mechanic. If you do poorly in a game you should lose, for both sides. You should design the game so that both sides have an equal chance at winning.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410051#Comment_3410051
I'm not debating that tunneling wouldn't be better of removed.All im point out are flaws in yours and other people's common suggestions.You can't just outright remove such a core part of the game.
Regarding mentality you can't really tell people how to play the game.It would be like telling survivors to stop worring about gens or escaping and instead count how many unhooks they had or celebrate having a chase take longer than a minute.You can't tell other people how to play, what a satisfying game is for them or trying to make up a new win condition.
Is it really a core part of the game? I have my doubts that developers would be fine with purposely adding a mechanic like that.
It would be like adding a 2x multiplier on the right side of the gen so that if survivors are losing they can switch sides to gain an advantage.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409828#Comment_3409828
How about that invicibility wears off once killer hooks another survivor. Then it's not tunneling anymore. But killers would need to be buffed if this would be put on game as you don't win often games going for 8 hooks before first kill at some point you need someone out and usually tunneling is needed to do that. Sometimes I get lucky and get someone out without tunneling as my 5-6 hooks which is even now viable strat but that does not happen often. So we have to expect killer getting minimium 6 hooks before first kill if tunneling was removed from game.
If tunneling was removed from the game then there would be no need for quick gens (except maybe, maybe if camping increases). Tunneling is a big reason gen speeds stay like it is right now.